{"id":149503,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe43fa48eb7581ed2d52afbb2d65d0dae1f8ba9b0039caa7a66e64d1a1634640805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:48:16 - 10:57:38","影片長度":"00:09:22","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-3"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":562,"end_time":"2024-03-07T10:57:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T10:48:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":469,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時48分）謝謝主席。主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：來，邱部長，請。"],["邱部長國正：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早。在跟您詢答之前，我想先問一個ABC的問題，但請您放心，這不是一個什麼陷阱題。因為我認真看了你的業務報告，知道你們有特別提到要反認知作戰，要堅定軍民的心防，其實剛剛前面很多委員問到非常多的部分，包括要增強我們的實力，所謂實力當然就是軍備的部分，軍備實力要堅強，所謂備戰才能止戰。另外當然就是國軍的素質要提升，這樣在新式作戰當中才能夠搶得機先，但是我對你剛剛講的一句話非常感動，就是這些受訓的軍人最後要回頭想想自己站在哪裡，我覺得這是最重要的。我相信政黨會輪替，從我以前在跑新聞的時候，大家就講了，軍隊國家化，軍隊是國家的，所以說現在民進黨執政，軍隊不是民進黨的，未來如果換了另外一個政黨，他當選了總統，軍隊也不是那一個政黨的。所以軍隊是國家的，不知道部長您認不認同？"],["邱部長國正：我完全認同，而且我跟委員多講幾句，我一直很感激，感激什麼？感激、慶幸我自己身為軍人，軍人沒有黨派的問題，我是一直從這個方面去走的。"],["林委員楚茵：但是我想問的這個ABC的問題出現了喔！這個國家是中華民國，對吧？"],["邱部長國正：對啊！中華民國啊！"],["林委員楚茵：無庸置疑，對吧？"],["邱部長國正：無庸置疑，中華民國，我是中華民國國軍啊！"],["林委員楚茵：好，不知道您有沒有看過這張字條？這是一位現役軍人（現在當然他已經不是了），他曾經寫下的字條，他說：「在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一，效忠祖國，一旦兩岸發生戰爭，本人會在自己的工作崗位上，盡自己能力為祖國效力，完成和平統一的光榮使命」。他姓向，部長，您知道他是誰嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我知道他是誰。"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["邱部長國正：不管委員有沒有問，我先下定論，無恥！可恥！"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心，而且就像您剛講的，這一位在服役的過程當中，他竟然可以立下誓約，就你所說的就是個無恥之徒，但是當法院起訴他的時候，竟然用的是貪污治罪條例，他向中共宣誓，但是大家想這個判決，天啊！是不是我們的檢察官不知道，用錯了法令？不是！而是因為如果他對對方宣示了投降承諾書，但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪，因為我們現行的法規當中，不論我們收了多少，相關國安法，頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑。其實我時間有限，我想問部長，看到像這樣的狀況的時候，只能用貪污來辦他，我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候，他提到的是，其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的投降同意書，效忠別的國家、效忠我們的敵對國家，但是我想請問的是，如果部長也覺得可恥的時候，是不是表示我們國軍的法令相關的陸海空刑法必須要有所修正？不然事實上，這恐怕不是只是貪污，而是一個站在我們這裡、接受我們的訓練，但是未來一旦戰事發生的時候，他是立刻就投降，而且在過程當中，他確實是有收受一些對方的款項。所以我想要問部長的就是，如果貪污治罪條例……雄檢為什麼這樣辦？法界人士就直接講了，因為用貪污治罪條例可以處以無期徒刑到10年以上，但是如果用陸海空軍刑法，只能處6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑，那麼刑期不夠重，當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約。所以部長您怎麼來看，是不是陸海空軍刑法也必須要有所修正？我特別看了這一次的業務報告，在第19頁跟第20頁有提到，目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案，以及軍人權益相關的處理法案，在我指出這樣的問題之後，部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，剛剛講到無恥、可恥是很心痛的一件事，但是這個法規定在那個地方，我覺得無奈，我們也很期望軍刑法能夠恢復、執行，像剛才講到這一條，它前面一開始有個前提，他未遂的才會處以5個月以上5年以下，他假如已遂，我剛一眼看到，是槍決、處死刑，但我不能講因為我自己個人認為，我就咬定，法有一定程序，我們要一步一步改，我們也期望這些人員受到最嚴厲的制裁，不但有懲罰他的作用，還有警告我們國軍同仁大家要齊心一意，而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法，而且基於本身內心發出來效忠國家的，不會再有這種事情。"],["林委員楚茵：部長，我們都不希望戰爭發生，因為這個犯行如果一旦發生，就以這個案例來講，那就是戰爭發生的時候，他才會被處以死刑，否則他現在立這個誓約，因為戰爭沒有發生，所以他就是預備犯，頂多就是這樣，所以為什麼我提醒你國軍必須要拿出態度來、必須要去修正相關的法令，因為如果你用所謂的預備、預謀，只有6個月以上5年以下有期徒刑，我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生，對不對？所以我特別提到的是，過去國軍對於陸海空軍刑罰當中，因為酒駕、因為毒駕、因為軍事造謠、因為霸凌、因為軍中賭博，我們都可以來做修正，這宣示著軍中對於這些行為，他們所不能接受跟不能容忍。但是就像剛剛我大前提的A、B、C，我也請您回答的，就是如果國家的軍隊所效忠的是另外一個國家，不是中華民國而是中華人民共和國的時候，我覺得它的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序。所以今天這個議題討論了之後，我期望部長回去研擬，是不是國防部要拿出態度，因為沒有態度就是鼓勵、就是縱容，我相信您的重話也放在前面了，但是至少行政院要有版本、國防部要有版本，至少重視這個命題好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["林委員楚茵：因為我相信這個才是真正我們剛剛前面所講的，不論是在戰備、戰力、武器、人員素質的提升，心最重要，不然回到剛剛我想要強調的，沒錯！一旦真的投敵會處以死刑，但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生，真的出現投敵的狀況，所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去研擬可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：絕對要這樣做。我跟委員報告，我們真的很心痛，有時候礙於法的規章，我們眼看好像沒轍，其實我個人跟同仁講好多次，我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後，可是我們好像沒有辦法，這口氣我都嚥不下，所以我絕對密切配合，而且從重來處理這些人員，因為這是最基本的，軍人要有這個品德，軍人的武德在哪裡？就在這個地方，這都守不住，一切免談！"],["林委員楚茵：好。最後不好意思，主席，我用最後一點時間，今天早上因為有將領同車，無法抵達現場的狀況，其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了，那麼媒體朋友他們當然很專業，不過他們點出了一個問題，國防部的bus在大直有出了一點狀況，以至於他們看出了一個問題是，讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個bus上，那麼會不會有所謂在同一個bus上面同車，然後有危險，這樣的一個狀況？"],["主席：你是擔心團滅的問題？"],["林委員楚茵：是，有沒有可能這樣子？以後是不是就像剛剛因為腳比較不舒服的副部長就可以先行到場，因為安全的問題，所以未來以後是不是考慮不要同車？媒體很想問這個問題。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們也很想分批，但分批以後有個問題，每個人一輛車或幾個人一輛車，你看這個交通流量為何？"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["邱部長國正：多方面考量，這個好意我也很感激，我們以後會斟酌，好不好？看怎麼樣場合，哪些人沒有必要來就不要來了，來的話他一定有他的功能，好不好？我們或者分批來，這些都可以考量的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，謝謝部長。","你叫他不要來的，他會非常忐忑，不過這倒是一個問題，也許分成兩巴，就是折衷啦，單一架的話，各位都是重要的軍事將領，結果到最後只有一個腳受傷的存活下來，這個問題很大。"],["邱部長國正：昨天晚上……"],["主席：對，剛才提到這是一個好問題，安全是時刻需要啦！","我跟在場同仁、跟國防部大家討論一下，因為剛才說林憶君委員詢答完，我們要休息5分鐘，因為陳冠廷委員是我們本會委員，他到了，我不知道部長需要不要休息，我是不是把這休息5分鐘取消掉，我們繼續，各位有沒有意見？"],["邱部長國正：沒有問題。"],["主席：你沒有問題，如果沒有問題，我們把剛才宣告的休息5分鐘取消掉，經在場的同仁同意。","現在進行詢答的委員是林憶君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-3","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","馬文君","陳永康","洪申翰","林楚茵","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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\"所以部長您怎麼來看是不是陸海空軍刑罰也必須要有所修正我特別看了這一次的業務報告在第19跟21也有提到現在目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍的懲罰修法草案以及軍人權益的相關的處理法案在我指出這樣的問題之後部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 259.306, \"end\": 259.346, \"score\": 0.493}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 259.346, \"end\": 259.486, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 259.486, \"end\": 259.926, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 259.926, \"end\": 260.126, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 260.126, \"end\": 260.546, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 260.546, \"end\": 261.086, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 261.086, \"end\": 261.207, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 261.207, \"end\": 261.347, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 261.347, \"end\": 261.707, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 261.707, \"end\": 261.847, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 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00:01:03,459\n我相信政黨會輪替我從以前在跑新聞的時候大家就講了軍隊國家化其實軍隊是國家的所以說現在民進黨執政軍隊不是民進黨的\n\n4\n00:01:06,536 --> 00:01:27,166\n未來如果換了另外一個政黨他當選了總統軍隊也不是那個政黨的所以軍隊是國家的不知道部長您認不認同我完全認同而且我跟委員多講幾句我一直很感激感激什麼感激慶幸我自己身為軍人因為軍人沒有這個黨派的問題我一直從這一方面去走的\n\n5\n00:01:27,366 --> 00:01:28,006\n這是一位現役現在當然他已經不是了\n\n6\n00:01:46,818 --> 00:02:05,400\n他曾經寫下的字條他說他在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一效忠祖國一旦兩岸發生戰爭本人會在自己的工作崗位上盡自己的能力為祖國效力完成和平統一的光榮使命他信向\n\n7\n00:02:06,803 --> 00:02:29,819\n部長您知道他是誰嗎?我知道他是誰好我只能先委員官有沒有問我先下定論是無恥可恥好因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心而且就像您剛講的這一位在服役的過程當中他竟然可以立下誓約就您所說的就是個無恥之徒但是\n\n8\n00:02:31,563 --> 00:03:00,106\n當法院起訴他的時候竟然用的是貪污治罪條例他向中共宣誓但是大家就想這個判決天哪是不是我們的檢察官不知道用錯了法律不是是因為如果說他對對方宣誓了投降承諾書但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪因為我們現行的法規當中不論我們收了多少的國安法\n\n9\n00:03:01,766 --> 00:03:25,254\n他頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑所以其實我時間有限我想問部長看到像這樣的狀況的時候只能用貪汙來辦他我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候他提到的是說其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的這個投降同意書效忠別的國家\n\n10\n00:03:43,626 --> 00:03:43,926\n：林楚茵\n\n11\n00:04:02,831 --> 00:04:18,605\n用貪污治罪條例可以除以無期徒刑到10年以上但是如果用陸海空軍刑罰的話只能除6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑那麼刑期不夠重當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約\n\n12\n00:04:19,306 --> 00:04:45,393\n所以部長您怎麼來看是不是陸海空軍刑罰也必須要有所修正我特別看了這一次的業務報告在第19跟21也有提到現在目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍的懲罰修法草案以及軍人權益的相關的處理法案在我指出這樣的問題之後部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢\n\n13\n00:04:46,201 --> 00:05:09,987\n我跟委員報告,剛剛講到無恥可恥是很心痛的現實,但法規定在這個地方,我不想無奈,我們也很期望去講說軍刑法能夠恢復然後執行,像剛才講到這一條,它前面一開始有個前提,它未遂的才會5個月以上,5年以下,它以遂的話,我剛剛一眼看到槍決,處死刑案。\n\n14\n00:05:11,526 --> 00:05:40,658\n對,但我不能講,因為我自己個人認為,我就好像咬地,法有一定程序,我們要一步一步趕,我們也期望講說這些人民受到最嚴厲的制裁,不但有懲罰他的作用,還有警告我們國軍同仁,大家要齊心一意,而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法,而且基於本身內心發出來的,效忠國家的,不會再有這種事情。\n\n15\n00:05:41,152 --> 00:06:00,664\n國防部長,我們都不希望戰爭發生,因為這個犯行如果一旦發生,就以這個案例來講的話,那就是戰爭發生的時候,他才會被處以死刑,否則的話他現在立這個誓約,因為戰爭沒有發生啊,所以說他就是預備犯,頂多就是這樣,所以為什麼我提醒你說國軍必須要拿出態度來,必須要\n\n16\n00:06:03,306 --> 00:06:12,862\n去修正相關的法令因為如果你用所謂的預備預謀只有6個月以上5年以下有基督心我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生嘛對不對\n\n17\n00:06:14,966 --> 00:06:41,974\n那所以我特別提到的是說過去國軍對於陸海空軍的刑罰當中因為酒駕因為獨駕因為軍事造謠因為霸凌因為軍中賭博我們都可以來做修正這宣示著軍中對於這些行為他們所不能接受跟不能容忍但是就像剛剛我大前提的ABC我也請您回答的就是說如果國家的軍隊\n\n18\n00:06:43,715 --> 00:07:02,726\n他所效忠的是另外一個國家不是中華民國是中華人民共和國的時候我覺得他的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序所以我期望部長今天這個議題討論了之後回去來演你是不是\n\n19\n00:07:03,306 --> 00:07:27,410\n國防部要拿出態度因為沒有態度就是鼓勵就是縱容我相信您的重話也放在前面了但是至少行政院要有版本國防部要有版本至少重視這個命題好嗎因為我相信這個才是真正的我們剛剛前面講的不論是在戰備戰力武器人員素質提升心最重要不然\n\n20\n00:07:28,110 --> 00:07:44,078\n我回到我剛剛我想要強調的是沒錯一旦真的投敵會處於死刑但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生真的出現投敵的狀況所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去演你可以嗎\n\n21\n00:07:45,150 --> 00:08:13,317\n絕對要這樣做我跟委員報告我們真的很心痛有耐於法的規章我們好像眼看好像就是沒轍其實我個人我跟同仁講好多次我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後而我還沒有辦法我這口氣我都咽不下所以我絕對密切配合而且從眾來處理這些人員因為這最基本軍人要有一個品德軍人的武德要在哪裡就在這個地方這人守不住一切免難\n\n22\n00:08:14,177 --> 00:08:22,361\n最後不好意思主席我用最後一點時間是因為今天早上因為有因為將領同車然後無法抵達現場的狀況其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了那麼媒體朋友呢他們當然很專業不過呢他們點出了一個問題就是說這個國防部的BUS在大直有出了一點狀況那麼以至於呢他們看出了一個問題是說讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個BUS上那麼會不會有所謂在同一個BUS上面\n\n23\n00:08:42,549 --> 00:08:44,369\n每個一輛車或幾個一輛車你看這個交通流量為何多方面考量這個好意我也很感激我們以後會斟酌\n\n24\n00:09:11,119 --> 00:09:11,219\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7611\t33965\t林委員好部長早在跟您詢答之前我想先問一個ABC的問題但請您放心這個不是一個什麼陷阱題因為剛剛其實我在認真看你的業務報告的時候特別有提到要反任之作戰要堅定軍民的心防其實剛剛前面的很多委員問到了非常多的部分包括我們要增強我們的實力那所以實力的部分當然就是軍備的部分軍備實力要堅強\n35606\t35966\t林楚茵\n55726\t63459\t我相信政黨會輪替我從以前在跑新聞的時候大家就講了軍隊國家化其實軍隊是國家的所以說現在民進黨執政軍隊不是民進黨的\n66536\t87166\t未來如果換了另外一個政黨他當選了總統軍隊也不是那個政黨的所以軍隊是國家的不知道部長您認不認同我完全認同而且我跟委員多講幾句我一直很感激感激什麼感激慶幸我自己身為軍人因為軍人沒有這個黨派的問題我一直從這一方面去走的\n87366\t88006\t這是一位現役 現在當然他已經不是了\n106818\t125400\t他曾經寫下的字條他說他在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一效忠祖國一旦兩岸發生戰爭本人會在自己的工作崗位上盡自己的能力為祖國效力完成和平統一的光榮使命他信向\n126803\t149819\t部長您知道他是誰嗎?我知道他是誰好我只能先委員官有沒有問我先下定論是無恥可恥好因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心而且就像您剛講的這一位在服役的過程當中他竟然可以立下誓約就您所說的就是個無恥之徒但是\n151563\t180106\t當法院起訴他的時候竟然用的是貪污治罪條例他向中共宣誓但是大家就想這個判決天哪是不是我們的檢察官不知道用錯了法律不是是因為如果說他對對方宣誓了投降承諾書但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪因為我們現行的法規當中不論我們收了多少的國安法\n181766\t205254\t他頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑所以其實我時間有限我想問部長看到像這樣的狀況的時候只能用貪汙來辦他我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候他提到的是說其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的這個投降同意書效忠別的國家\n205674\t223626\t﹗\n223626\t223926\t：林楚茵\n242831\t258605\t用貪污治罪條例可以除以無期徒刑到10年以上但是如果用陸海空軍刑罰的話只能除6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑那麼刑期不夠重當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約\n259306\t285393\t所以部長您怎麼來看是不是陸海空軍刑罰也必須要有所修正我特別看了這一次的業務報告在第19跟21也有提到現在目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍的懲罰修法草案以及軍人權益的相關的處理法案在我指出這樣的問題之後部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢\n286201\t309987\t我跟委員報告,剛剛講到無恥可恥是很心痛的現實,但法規定在這個地方,我不想無奈,我們也很期望去講說軍刑法能夠恢復然後執行,像剛才講到這一條,它前面一開始有個前提,它未遂的才會5個月以上,5年以下,它以遂的話,我剛剛一眼看到槍決,處死刑案。\n311526\t340658\t對,但我不能講,因為我自己個人認為,我就好像咬地,法有一定程序,我們要一步一步趕,我們也期望講說這些人民受到最嚴厲的制裁,不但有懲罰他的作用,還有警告我們國軍同仁,大家要齊心一意,而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法,而且基於本身內心發出來的,效忠國家的,不會再有這種事情。\n341152\t360664\t國防部長,我們都不希望戰爭發生,因為這個犯行如果一旦發生,就以這個案例來講的話,那就是戰爭發生的時候,他才會被處以死刑,否則的話他現在立這個誓約,因為戰爭沒有發生啊,所以說他就是預備犯,頂多就是這樣,所以為什麼我提醒你說國軍必須要拿出態度來,必須要\n363306\t372862\t去修正相關的法令因為如果你用所謂的預備預謀只有6個月以上5年以下有基督心我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生嘛對不對\n374966\t401974\t那所以我特別提到的是說過去國軍對於陸海空軍的刑罰當中因為酒駕因為獨駕因為軍事造謠因為霸凌因為軍中賭博我們都可以來做修正這宣示著軍中對於這些行為他們所不能接受跟不能容忍但是就像剛剛我大前提的ABC我也請您回答的就是說如果國家的軍隊\n403715\t422726\t他所效忠的是另外一個國家不是中華民國是中華人民共和國的時候我覺得他的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序所以我期望部長今天這個議題討論了之後回去來演你是不是\n423306\t447410\t國防部要拿出態度因為沒有態度就是鼓勵就是縱容我相信您的重話也放在前面了但是至少行政院要有版本國防部要有版本至少重視這個命題好嗎因為我相信這個才是真正的我們剛剛前面講的不論是在戰備戰力武器人員素質提升心最重要不然\n448110\t464078\t我回到我剛剛我想要強調的是沒錯一旦真的投敵會處於死刑但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生真的出現投敵的狀況所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去演你可以嗎\n465150\t493317\t絕對要這樣做我跟委員報告我們真的很心痛有耐於法的規章我們好像眼看好像就是沒轍其實我個人我跟同仁講好多次我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後而我還沒有辦法我這口氣我都咽不下所以我絕對密切配合而且從眾來處理這些人員因為這最基本軍人要有一個品德軍人的武德要在哪裡就在這個地方這人守不住一切免難\n494177\t502361\t最後不好意思主席我用最後一點時間是因為今天早上因為有因為將領同車然後無法抵達現場的狀況其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了那麼媒體朋友呢他們當然很專業不過呢他們點出了一個問題就是說這個國防部的BUS在大直有出了一點狀況那麼以至於呢他們看出了一個問題是說讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個BUS上那麼會不會有所謂在同一個BUS上面\n522549\t524369\t每個一輛車或幾個一輛車你看這個交通流量為何多方面考量這個好意我也很感激我們以後會斟酌\n551119\t551219\t主席\n","txt":"林委員好部長早在跟您詢答之前我想先問一個ABC的問題但請您放心這個不是一個什麼陷阱題因為剛剛其實我在認真看你的業務報告的時候特別有提到要反任之作戰要堅定軍民的心防其實剛剛前面的很多委員問到了非常多的部分包括我們要增強我們的實力那所以實力的部分當然就是軍備的部分軍備實力要堅強\n林楚茵\n我相信政黨會輪替我從以前在跑新聞的時候大家就講了軍隊國家化其實軍隊是國家的所以說現在民進黨執政軍隊不是民進黨的\n未來如果換了另外一個政黨他當選了總統軍隊也不是那個政黨的所以軍隊是國家的不知道部長您認不認同我完全認同而且我跟委員多講幾句我一直很感激感激什麼感激慶幸我自己身為軍人因為軍人沒有這個黨派的問題我一直從這一方面去走的\n這是一位現役 現在當然他已經不是了\n他曾經寫下的字條他說他在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一效忠祖國一旦兩岸發生戰爭本人會在自己的工作崗位上盡自己的能力為祖國效力完成和平統一的光榮使命他信向\n部長您知道他是誰嗎?我知道他是誰好我只能先委員官有沒有問我先下定論是無恥可恥好因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心而且就像您剛講的這一位在服役的過程當中他竟然可以立下誓約就您所說的就是個無恥之徒但是\n當法院起訴他的時候竟然用的是貪污治罪條例他向中共宣誓但是大家就想這個判決天哪是不是我們的檢察官不知道用錯了法律不是是因為如果說他對對方宣誓了投降承諾書但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪因為我們現行的法規當中不論我們收了多少的國安法\n他頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑所以其實我時間有限我想問部長看到像這樣的狀況的時候只能用貪汙來辦他我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候他提到的是說其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的這個投降同意書效忠別的國家\n﹗\n：林楚茵\n用貪污治罪條例可以除以無期徒刑到10年以上但是如果用陸海空軍刑罰的話只能除6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑那麼刑期不夠重當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約\n所以部長您怎麼來看是不是陸海空軍刑罰也必須要有所修正我特別看了這一次的業務報告在第19跟21也有提到現在目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍的懲罰修法草案以及軍人權益的相關的處理法案在我指出這樣的問題之後部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢\n我跟委員報告,剛剛講到無恥可恥是很心痛的現實,但法規定在這個地方,我不想無奈,我們也很期望去講說軍刑法能夠恢復然後執行,像剛才講到這一條,它前面一開始有個前提,它未遂的才會5個月以上,5年以下,它以遂的話,我剛剛一眼看到槍決,處死刑案。\n對,但我不能講,因為我自己個人認為,我就好像咬地,法有一定程序,我們要一步一步趕,我們也期望講說這些人民受到最嚴厲的制裁,不但有懲罰他的作用,還有警告我們國軍同仁,大家要齊心一意,而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法,而且基於本身內心發出來的,效忠國家的,不會再有這種事情。\n國防部長,我們都不希望戰爭發生,因為這個犯行如果一旦發生,就以這個案例來講的話,那就是戰爭發生的時候,他才會被處以死刑,否則的話他現在立這個誓約,因為戰爭沒有發生啊,所以說他就是預備犯,頂多就是這樣,所以為什麼我提醒你說國軍必須要拿出態度來,必須要\n去修正相關的法令因為如果你用所謂的預備預謀只有6個月以上5年以下有基督心我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生嘛對不對\n那所以我特別提到的是說過去國軍對於陸海空軍的刑罰當中因為酒駕因為獨駕因為軍事造謠因為霸凌因為軍中賭博我們都可以來做修正這宣示著軍中對於這些行為他們所不能接受跟不能容忍但是就像剛剛我大前提的ABC我也請您回答的就是說如果國家的軍隊\n他所效忠的是另外一個國家不是中華民國是中華人民共和國的時候我覺得他的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序所以我期望部長今天這個議題討論了之後回去來演你是不是\n國防部要拿出態度因為沒有態度就是鼓勵就是縱容我相信您的重話也放在前面了但是至少行政院要有版本國防部要有版本至少重視這個命題好嗎因為我相信這個才是真正的我們剛剛前面講的不論是在戰備戰力武器人員素質提升心最重要不然\n我回到我剛剛我想要強調的是沒錯一旦真的投敵會處於死刑但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生真的出現投敵的狀況所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去演你可以嗎\n絕對要這樣做我跟委員報告我們真的很心痛有耐於法的規章我們好像眼看好像就是沒轍其實我個人我跟同仁講好多次我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後而我還沒有辦法我這口氣我都咽不下所以我絕對密切配合而且從眾來處理這些人員因為這最基本軍人要有一個品德軍人的武德要在哪裡就在這個地方這人守不住一切免難\n最後不好意思主席我用最後一點時間是因為今天早上因為有因為將領同車然後無法抵達現場的狀況其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了那麼媒體朋友呢他們當然很專業不過呢他們點出了一個問題就是說這個國防部的BUS在大直有出了一點狀況那麼以至於呢他們看出了一個問題是說讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個BUS上那麼會不會有所謂在同一個BUS上面\n每個一輛車或幾個一輛車你看這個交通流量為何多方面考量這個好意我也很感激我們以後會斟酌\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.611 --> 00:33.965\n林委員好部長早在跟您詢答之前我想先問一個ABC的問題但請您放心這個不是一個什麼陷阱題因為剛剛其實我在認真看你的業務報告的時候特別有提到要反任之作戰要堅定軍民的心防其實剛剛前面的很多委員問到了非常多的部分包括我們要增強我們的實力那所以實力的部分當然就是軍備的部分軍備實力要堅強\n\n00:35.606 --> 00:35.966\n林楚茵\n\n00:55.726 --> 01:03.459\n我相信政黨會輪替我從以前在跑新聞的時候大家就講了軍隊國家化其實軍隊是國家的所以說現在民進黨執政軍隊不是民進黨的\n\n01:06.536 --> 01:27.166\n未來如果換了另外一個政黨他當選了總統軍隊也不是那個政黨的所以軍隊是國家的不知道部長您認不認同我完全認同而且我跟委員多講幾句我一直很感激感激什麼感激慶幸我自己身為軍人因為軍人沒有這個黨派的問題我一直從這一方面去走的\n\n01:27.366 --> 01:28.006\n這是一位現役現在當然他已經不是了\n\n01:46.818 --> 02:05.400\n他曾經寫下的字條他說他在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一效忠祖國一旦兩岸發生戰爭本人會在自己的工作崗位上盡自己的能力為祖國效力完成和平統一的光榮使命他信向\n\n02:06.803 --> 02:29.819\n部長您知道他是誰嗎?我知道他是誰好我只能先委員官有沒有問我先下定論是無恥可恥好因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心而且就像您剛講的這一位在服役的過程當中他竟然可以立下誓約就您所說的就是個無恥之徒但是\n\n02:31.563 --> 03:00.106\n當法院起訴他的時候竟然用的是貪污治罪條例他向中共宣誓但是大家就想這個判決天哪是不是我們的檢察官不知道用錯了法律不是是因為如果說他對對方宣誓了投降承諾書但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪因為我們現行的法規當中不論我們收了多少的國安法\n\n03:01.766 --> 03:25.254\n他頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑所以其實我時間有限我想問部長看到像這樣的狀況的時候只能用貪汙來辦他我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候他提到的是說其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的這個投降同意書效忠別的國家\n\n03:43.626 --> 03:43.926\n：林楚茵\n\n04:02.831 --> 04:18.605\n用貪污治罪條例可以除以無期徒刑到10年以上但是如果用陸海空軍刑罰的話只能除6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑那麼刑期不夠重當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約\n\n04:19.306 --> 04:45.393\n所以部長您怎麼來看是不是陸海空軍刑罰也必須要有所修正我特別看了這一次的業務報告在第19跟21也有提到現在目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍的懲罰修法草案以及軍人權益的相關的處理法案在我指出這樣的問題之後部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢\n\n04:46.201 --> 05:09.987\n我跟委員報告,剛剛講到無恥可恥是很心痛的現實,但法規定在這個地方,我不想無奈,我們也很期望去講說軍刑法能夠恢復然後執行,像剛才講到這一條,它前面一開始有個前提,它未遂的才會5個月以上,5年以下,它以遂的話,我剛剛一眼看到槍決,處死刑案。\n\n05:11.526 --> 05:40.658\n對,但我不能講,因為我自己個人認為,我就好像咬地,法有一定程序,我們要一步一步趕,我們也期望講說這些人民受到最嚴厲的制裁,不但有懲罰他的作用,還有警告我們國軍同仁,大家要齊心一意,而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法,而且基於本身內心發出來的,效忠國家的,不會再有這種事情。\n\n05:41.152 --> 06:00.664\n國防部長,我們都不希望戰爭發生,因為這個犯行如果一旦發生,就以這個案例來講的話,那就是戰爭發生的時候,他才會被處以死刑,否則的話他現在立這個誓約,因為戰爭沒有發生啊,所以說他就是預備犯,頂多就是這樣,所以為什麼我提醒你說國軍必須要拿出態度來,必須要\n\n06:03.306 --> 06:12.862\n去修正相關的法令因為如果你用所謂的預備預謀只有6個月以上5年以下有基督心我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生嘛對不對\n\n06:14.966 --> 06:41.974\n那所以我特別提到的是說過去國軍對於陸海空軍的刑罰當中因為酒駕因為獨駕因為軍事造謠因為霸凌因為軍中賭博我們都可以來做修正這宣示著軍中對於這些行為他們所不能接受跟不能容忍但是就像剛剛我大前提的ABC我也請您回答的就是說如果國家的軍隊\n\n06:43.715 --> 07:02.726\n他所效忠的是另外一個國家不是中華民國是中華人民共和國的時候我覺得他的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序所以我期望部長今天這個議題討論了之後回去來演你是不是\n\n07:03.306 --> 07:27.410\n國防部要拿出態度因為沒有態度就是鼓勵就是縱容我相信您的重話也放在前面了但是至少行政院要有版本國防部要有版本至少重視這個命題好嗎因為我相信這個才是真正的我們剛剛前面講的不論是在戰備戰力武器人員素質提升心最重要不然\n\n07:28.110 --> 07:44.078\n我回到我剛剛我想要強調的是沒錯一旦真的投敵會處於死刑但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生真的出現投敵的狀況所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去演你可以嗎\n\n07:45.150 --> 08:13.317\n絕對要這樣做我跟委員報告我們真的很心痛有耐於法的規章我們好像眼看好像就是沒轍其實我個人我跟同仁講好多次我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後而我還沒有辦法我這口氣我都咽不下所以我絕對密切配合而且從眾來處理這些人員因為這最基本軍人要有一個品德軍人的武德要在哪裡就在這個地方這人守不住一切免難\n\n08:14.177 --> 08:22.361\n最後不好意思主席我用最後一點時間是因為今天早上因為有因為將領同車然後無法抵達現場的狀況其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了那麼媒體朋友呢他們當然很專業不過呢他們點出了一個問題就是說這個國防部的BUS在大直有出了一點狀況那麼以至於呢他們看出了一個問題是說讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個BUS上那麼會不會有所謂在同一個BUS上面\n\n08:42.549 --> 08:44.369\n每個一輛車或幾個一輛車你看這個交通流量為何多方面考量這個好意我也很感激我們以後會斟酌\n\n09:11.119 --> 09:11.219\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.611,"end":33.965,"text":"林委員好部長早在跟您詢答之前我想先問一個ABC的問題但請您放心這個不是一個什麼陷阱題因為剛剛其實我在認真看你的業務報告的時候特別有提到要反任之作戰要堅定軍民的心防其實剛剛前面的很多委員問到了非常多的部分包括我們要增強我們的實力那所以實力的部分當然就是軍備的部分軍備實力要堅強"},{"start":35.606,"end":35.966,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":55.726,"end":63.459,"text":"我相信政黨會輪替我從以前在跑新聞的時候大家就講了軍隊國家化其實軍隊是國家的所以說現在民進黨執政軍隊不是民進黨的"},{"start":66.536,"end":87.166,"text":"未來如果換了另外一個政黨他當選了總統軍隊也不是那個政黨的所以軍隊是國家的不知道部長您認不認同我完全認同而且我跟委員多講幾句我一直很感激感激什麼感激慶幸我自己身為軍人因為軍人沒有這個黨派的問題我一直從這一方面去走的"},{"start":87.366,"end":88.006,"text":"這是一位現役 現在當然他已經不是了"},{"start":106.818,"end":125.4,"text":"他曾經寫下的字條他說他在此宣誓支持兩岸和平統一效忠祖國一旦兩岸發生戰爭本人會在自己的工作崗位上盡自己的能力為祖國效力完成和平統一的光榮使命他信向"},{"start":126.803,"end":149.819,"text":"部長您知道他是誰嗎?我知道他是誰好我只能先委員官有沒有問我先下定論是無恥可恥好因為這個完全是打擊了國軍的信心而且就像您剛講的這一位在服役的過程當中他竟然可以立下誓約就您所說的就是個無恥之徒但是"},{"start":151.563,"end":180.106,"text":"當法院起訴他的時候竟然用的是貪污治罪條例他向中共宣誓但是大家就想這個判決天哪是不是我們的檢察官不知道用錯了法律不是是因為如果說他對對方宣誓了投降承諾書但是這張投降承諾書只能用貪污治罪條例才能判他重罪因為我們現行的法規當中不論我們收了多少的國安法"},{"start":181.766,"end":205.254,"text":"他頂多就是只能用一個5年以下的有期徒刑所以其實我時間有限我想問部長看到像這樣的狀況的時候只能用貪汙來辦他我知道我們民進黨也有一些委員在接受訪問問到這個案子的時候他提到的是說其實不只是國軍會被簽署所謂的這個投降同意書效忠別的國家"},{"start":205.674,"end":223.626,"text":"﹗"},{"start":223.626,"end":223.926,"text":"：林楚茵"},{"start":242.831,"end":258.605,"text":"用貪污治罪條例可以除以無期徒刑到10年以上但是如果用陸海空軍刑罰的話只能除6個月以上5年以下的有期徒刑那麼刑期不夠重當然就有人膽敢立下這種誓約"},{"start":259.306,"end":285.393,"text":"所以部長您怎麼來看是不是陸海空軍刑罰也必須要有所修正我特別看了這一次的業務報告在第19跟21也有提到現在目前為止只打算修正的是陸海空軍的懲罰修法草案以及軍人權益的相關的處理法案在我指出這樣的問題之後部長覺得我們國防部是不是也應該要拿出應有的態度呢"},{"start":286.201,"end":309.987,"text":"我跟委員報告,剛剛講到無恥可恥是很心痛的現實,但法規定在這個地方,我不想無奈,我們也很期望去講說軍刑法能夠恢復然後執行,像剛才講到這一條,它前面一開始有個前提,它未遂的才會5個月以上,5年以下,它以遂的話,我剛剛一眼看到槍決,處死刑案。"},{"start":311.526,"end":340.658,"text":"對,但我不能講,因為我自己個人認為,我就好像咬地,法有一定程序,我們要一步一步趕,我們也期望講說這些人民受到最嚴厲的制裁,不但有懲罰他的作用,還有警告我們國軍同仁,大家要齊心一意,而且更讓國人知道我們國軍的向心力是絕對基於法,而且基於本身內心發出來的,效忠國家的,不會再有這種事情。"},{"start":341.152,"end":360.664,"text":"國防部長,我們都不希望戰爭發生,因為這個犯行如果一旦發生,就以這個案例來講的話,那就是戰爭發生的時候,他才會被處以死刑,否則的話他現在立這個誓約,因為戰爭沒有發生啊,所以說他就是預備犯,頂多就是這樣,所以為什麼我提醒你說國軍必須要拿出態度來,必須要"},{"start":363.306,"end":372.862,"text":"去修正相關的法令因為如果你用所謂的預備預謀只有6個月以上5年以下有基督心我想在這裡包括在場的大家也都不希望戰爭發生嘛對不對"},{"start":374.966,"end":401.974,"text":"那所以我特別提到的是說過去國軍對於陸海空軍的刑罰當中因為酒駕因為獨駕因為軍事造謠因為霸凌因為軍中賭博我們都可以來做修正這宣示著軍中對於這些行為他們所不能接受跟不能容忍但是就像剛剛我大前提的ABC我也請您回答的就是說如果國家的軍隊"},{"start":403.715,"end":422.726,"text":"他所效忠的是另外一個國家不是中華民國是中華人民共和國的時候我覺得他的嚴重性肯定是放在第一個優先順序所以我期望部長今天這個議題討論了之後回去來演你是不是"},{"start":423.306,"end":447.41,"text":"國防部要拿出態度因為沒有態度就是鼓勵就是縱容我相信您的重話也放在前面了但是至少行政院要有版本國防部要有版本至少重視這個命題好嗎因為我相信這個才是真正的我們剛剛前面講的不論是在戰備戰力武器人員素質提升心最重要不然"},{"start":448.11,"end":464.078,"text":"我回到我剛剛我想要強調的是沒錯一旦真的投敵會處於死刑但是我必須強調我們不希望戰爭發生真的出現投敵的狀況所以請部長把這樣的一個想法帶回去演你可以嗎"},{"start":465.15,"end":493.317,"text":"絕對要這樣做我跟委員報告我們真的很心痛有耐於法的規章我們好像眼看好像就是沒轍其實我個人我跟同仁講好多次我最痛恨就看這個人犯錯以後而我還沒有辦法我這口氣我都咽不下所以我絕對密切配合而且從眾來處理這些人員因為這最基本軍人要有一個品德軍人的武德要在哪裡就在這個地方這人守不住一切免難"},{"start":494.177,"end":502.361,"text":"最後不好意思主席我用最後一點時間是因為今天早上因為有因為將領同車然後無法抵達現場的狀況其實最新的即時新聞已經出來了那麼媒體朋友呢他們當然很專業不過呢他們點出了一個問題就是說這個國防部的BUS在大直有出了一點狀況那麼以至於呢他們看出了一個問題是說讓這麼多重要的國軍將領在同一個BUS上那麼會不會有所謂在同一個BUS上面"},{"start":522.549,"end":524.369,"text":"每個一輛車或幾個一輛車你看這個交通流量為何多方面考量這個好意我也很感激我們以後會斟酌"},{"start":551.119,"end":551.219,"text":"主席"}]}}}}