{"id":149523,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbea3d2b0daaba3d04b35d7358300cbb288f8ba9b0039caa7a6f0769d76712aaaab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"11:05:02 - 11:16:43","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":701,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:16:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:05:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":772,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（11時5分）謝謝召委，我們現在請邱主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：高金委員你好。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝主委。金門撞船事件到現在已經快1個月了，我們看到昨天的消息是雙方談判破裂了，請問您清楚知道我們談判幾次？時間、地點、到底有哪一些談判代表，然後陸委會的角色是什麼嗎？可以簡單回答嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：談過了15次，也不叫破裂啦，因為雙方有一、兩個項目可能已經有合致了，但是有其他的項目大概在法定的程序跟所謂的名詞上，大家各自回去解釋。"],["高金委員素梅：所以您是樂觀的？"],["邱主任委員太三：我不悲觀啦，我不能講樂觀，因為這是雙方都要有一定程度的妥協（compromise）。"],["高金委員素梅：瞭解，談判其實就是雙方的角力嘛，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：也是妥協啦。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["邱主任委員太三：是角力也是妥協。"],["高金委員素梅：很好，對，我們能夠用能力或證據達成共識，其實也是您身處統籌處理大陸事務主委……","如果談判破裂的話，就如您剛剛講的，可能還有一些問題存在，達不了共識，其實你是最緊張也是最擔心的，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然，我一定會持續關注，也戒慎恐懼。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。週一您在這邊回答我們說，這只是一個個案，你又講了兩岸的溝通管道其實很順暢，似乎感覺到……"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有講順暢，是有溝通管道。"],["高金委員素梅：好的，溝通管道，那我就問您，這個溝通管道到底是什麼？是誰？是不是有效？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然，委員講有效的概念會比較抽象。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我問說是誰？"],["邱主任委員太三：基本上我剛剛有提到……"],["高金委員素梅：溝通管道是誰？是陸委會還是海基會，還是有更神祕的人？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我要整個回答。第一個，剛剛提到了，我們過去三十幾年來……"],["高金委員素梅：你講太多了，我現在就問你兩個問題，就請你回答相關問題，我剛問你到底是誰？"],["邱主任委員太三：這個都是溝通管道，因為有一些是業務主管機關的……"],["高金委員素梅：你就說是誰就好了嘛，還是整個行政院最後會整理出一個談判的小組？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，基本上……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有？所以就是海委會的副署長去談判，我們的國家，我們的政府沒有派代表在後面統籌？"],["邱主任委員太三：我剛剛提到了，它有分事務性的、個案性的、政策性的，會按照不同的……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你的意思是說談判的代表裡面，行政院的那個所屬單位的代表都在？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，跟它不相關的它不需要在。"],["高金委員素梅：那有哪些相關的？"],["邱主任委員太三：譬如這一次這個事件，原則上大概就是海巡署跟我們和海基會。"],["高金委員素梅：你們一直談到的國家安全跟法律，這些人有參加嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：你說什麼？"],["高金委員素梅：你一直談到的國家安全，或者是法律上的問題，我們的國安會有人參加嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：他們是一個政策單位，不是執行單位。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，謝謝。我們的海委會說是依法行政，當然我也相信必須要依法行政，但是他們又講一切的證據都交給檢調了，既然第一，海巡署、海委會也好，在那邊一直強烈回答說我們沒有錯，又有有利的證據，然後又講人道關懷，怎麼講？以我的邏輯判斷啦，這種談判應該是十拿九穩，會成功嘛，為什麼會破裂？為什麼到現在還談不下來？原因到底是什麼？簡單回答一下。"],["邱主任委員太三：第一個是這樣，慰問金的部分基本上大概比較接近了，但是在名詞上面可能各有所堅持。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，剛剛你沒有聽清楚我的問題，我說既然我們說我們沒有錯，而且又有有利的證據，因為海巡署在那邊回答說有利的證據都交給了我們的檢調，既然交給了檢調，在談判的現場，為什麼不把這些東西拿出來，然後來談判？有利於大家不要再有這麼多的紛爭嘛。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，因為……"],["高金委員素梅：有沒有拿出來？"],["邱主任委員太三：我知道，海巡署講證據有利，陸方不一定會接受。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：就我們而言……"],["高金委員素梅：它說它有航跡軌跡圖，然後又有碰撞，這個碰撞是事實啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候不願意提出證據，是不是檢察官有作什麼樣的指示。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦，我不再問這件事情了，謝謝您的回答，您的回答也是交給檢調。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們臺灣所有的事實真相是司法來做最後的確定。"],["高金委員素梅：所以在談判的時候，這些有利證據就不拿出來就是了。"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，我相信檢察官，他請專家來鑑定的時候，相關的證據……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，這是邏輯的問題，兩個事情是不一樣的。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，已經很……"],["高金委員素梅：一個是相關的證據在談判的時候，如果對我們有利的話，你把這些東西拿出來不是更有證據、更有說服力嗎？我的問題是這個。"],["邱主任委員太三：那是海巡署它對於證物程序的問題……"],["高金委員素梅：好了，不用再回答了，謝謝。","按照我們剛剛談到撞船事件，我們看到政府說法好像不太一樣，所以我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子，第一個，我們看到2月20號陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候，就針對兩岸議題提到，即使面對威脅，臺灣始終會堅持民主、多元、尊重人權的生活方式；那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了，要秉持「保障權益、照顧輔導」為原則，持續會關懷還有檢討大陸配偶在臺灣的生活權益還有法規。","請問一下主委，在處理兩岸跟陸配的議題上面，我們的行政團隊採取所謂民主、多元、尊重人權跟保障權益和照顧輔導立場，是不是這樣子？對嗎？你的報告是這樣嘛？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。首先，我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針，那麼陳院長他一直高喊著人權，可是3月1號我們大家都看到了，在陸配身分證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了，他說茲事體大，保持保留的態度。最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎？陸配身分證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題，是2020年的時候執政黨，也就是民進黨你們提出的。","我們看一下，2020年行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面，你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到，政府擬具兩岸人民關係條例第十七條修正草案，你們要將大陸配偶取得身分證的年限由現行的6年調整到4年到8年，然後你們也寫到大陸配偶來臺取得身分證的年限必須要調整跟外籍配偶是一致的，而且你們也已經擬具兩岸人民關係條例第十七條修正草案，尚待立法院完成立法程序。提醒您喔！一直到這次大選結束前，民進黨的立委在立法院都是絕大多數喔！請問一下這份報告裡面，當時陸委會有參與其中嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：有。"],["高金委員素梅：有，好，那我就要問您了，當時是這樣，現在又改口，到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料，還是如同麥玉珍委員說的，因為2020年那時候是大選，他們這些外配也好、陸配也好，在大選當中被大家搶來搶去，請問是哪一個？"],["邱主任委員太三：我跟委員做一個歷史回顧報告……"],["高金委員素梅：簡單……不要再歷史回顧！我已經……"],["邱主任委員太三：因為我要告訴你的就是在於說……"],["高金委員素梅：你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛！對不對？那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣？當時2020年的時候就不是茲事體大，現在就茲事體大，為什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來了，國民黨政府在101年跟105年……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要講歷史背景了，我都知道，你在浪費我的時間。"],["邱主任委員太三：我只要告訴你說為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法……"],["高金委員素梅：為什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：就是因為爭議大嘛！利弊得失要比較。"],["高金委員素梅：爭議大，那2020年在大選的時候你們也提出來啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我當然可以理解擔心陸配，但是這個一定會拿出外配來做比較，茲事就體大了。"],["高金委員素梅：我現在就跟你講，剛剛民進黨立委有提出非常多，我認為……"],["邱主任委員太三：麥玉珍委員也提出來了啊！"],["高金委員素梅：我認為這都是假消息啦！第一，外界有提出很多問題，我舉三個例子，第一個是國安問題，請問一下如果是國安問題的話，我們有任何一個數據可以支持陸配比起外配更容易違反所謂的相關法律嗎？如果沒有，這個就是假議題，對不對？好，第二個，我要講的是健保濫用的問題，剛剛有人講探親的陸配家屬會濫用健保，很多人都講，目前依照我們的法規，陸配的家屬如果居留6個月以上，他才可以使用健保嘛！但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以超過6個月啊！所以我認為這也是假議題啊！然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以直接定居，所以他們會浪費健保，剛剛看到數據，你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已，就是超過70歲以上的家屬，這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保？所以健保問題也是一個假議題啊！然後他又提到一個就是剛剛講的，陸配不用拋棄國籍，而外配是要，但是陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍，現在是如此嘛！對不對？實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：不一樣，國籍跟戶籍不一樣。"],["高金委員素梅：所以這些民進黨立委覺得不公平，為什麼在當時執政8年這當中，尤其2020年你們也提到這個人權的部分，你們為什麼不修改這些東西呢？為什麼要現在造成這麼大的爭議？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我想外界各有各的關注點，我們沒有辦法評論，但是我們總結……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你們不能夠評論，但是……好，你總結。"],["邱主任委員太三：就是看看過去的經驗，101年的草案也好或105年國民黨時代提出的草案也好，它為什麼最後還是沒有過？那就是因為很多的問題會糾結在一起……"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好，你剛剛說茲事體大嘛！對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：就像我剛剛提到的，它是一個潘朵拉的盒子……"],["高金委員素梅：好，我知道了。"],["邱主任委員太三：所以我們陸委會向來不對外講到底是什麼樣的因素，但是我們主要是注重他們在臺的生活、工作跟他們的照顧。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝主委您的回應，茲事體大，所以本席認為有非常多兩岸的問題不要用情緒發言、不要用意識形態發言……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們陸委會絕對不會這樣。"],["高金委員素梅：所以我們剛剛談到的這些，包括一些民進黨立委提的一些數據，我認為這都是假消息，所以真正的問題點是剛剛主委您說的……","我必須回到我的結論，最後我要講的是我完全支持2020年民進黨的人權理念，同時也針對2024年民進黨對於這個人權理念的跳票感到非常的錯愕，我覺得這個又是一個非常明顯蔡英文在任期宣布，又在蔡英文任期裡面沒有辦法完成的一個現實的案例。謝謝您今天的回答，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：人權的理想不斷的要追求。"],["主席：好，謝謝我們高金召委，也謝謝邱主委。","接下來我們請李柏毅委員發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":268,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-4","speakers":["高金素梅","麥玉珍","徐欣瑩","羅智強","王美惠","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","黃建賓","丁學忠","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張智倫","許宇甄"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"149523","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149523","tool":"pyannote","id":"149523-pyannote"},"job_id":"VTfIvw1P2wTMP8rO","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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130.914, \"text\": \"呃當然委員你要講有效的沒有我說是誰那基本上我剛剛有提到公共管道是誰不是市民立委會還是海基會還是還有更神秘的人沒有我沒有不是我要回整整個的回答第一個剛剛提到了我們過去三十幾年來你講太多了之後我先就問你兩個問題這個都是公共管道我剛剛問你到底是誰你就說是誰就好了好嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"呃\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 111.363, \"end\": 111.643, \"score\": 0.502}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 111.643, \"end\": 111.943, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 111.943, \"end\": 112.043, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 112.043, \"end\": 112.403, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 112.403, \"end\": 112.603, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 112.603, \"end\": 112.923, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 112.923, \"end\": 113.204, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 113.204, \"end\": 113.324, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 113.324, \"end\": 113.444, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 113.444, \"end\": 113.764, \"score\": 0.74}, 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{\"start\": 533.753, \"end\": 561.193, \"text\": \"湯青的陸配的家屬會濫用健保很多人都講目前依照我們的法規陸配的家屬如果要居留6個月以上他才可以使用健保嘛但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以待過6個月超過6個月啊所以我認為這也是假議題啊然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以有直接定居所以他們會浪費健保\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"湯\"}, {\"word\": \"青\", \"start\": 533.753, \"end\": 533.993, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 533.993, \"end\": 534.334, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 534.334, \"end\": 534.454, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 534.454, \"end\": 534.594, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 534.594, \"end\": 535.515, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"濫\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 535.515, \"end\": 535.755, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 535.755, \"end\": 535.955, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 535.955, \"end\": 536.195, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 536.195, \"end\": 536.395, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 536.395, 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\"以\", \"start\": 559.812, \"end\": 559.913, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 559.913, \"end\": 560.413, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"浪\", \"start\": 560.413, \"end\": 560.913, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 560.913, \"end\": 561.173, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 561.173, \"end\": 561.193, \"score\": 0.602}]}, {\"start\": 562.334, \"end\": 571.7, \"text\": \"現在剛剛看到數據的你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已就是70歲或過70歲以上的家屬這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保所以健保問題他也是一個假議題啊然後他也提到一個就是剛剛講的陸配不用拋棄國籍而外配是要但是呢陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍現在是如此嘛對不對實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 562.334, \"end\": 562.855, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 562.855, \"end\": 563.015, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 563.015, \"end\": 563.495, \"score\": 0.572}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 563.495, \"end\": 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\"起\", \"start\": 698.792, \"end\": 698.954, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 698.954, \"end\": 698.974, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:00,469\n請秋主委發言\n\n2\n00:00:17,367 --> 00:00:34,541\n好謝謝主委基本撞船事件到現在已經快一個月了我們看到昨天的消息是雙方談判是破裂了請問您清楚知道我們談判幾次時間地點到底有哪一些談判代表然後陸委會的角色是什麼嗎可以簡單回答嗎\n\n3\n00:00:36,242 --> 00:00:50,609\n談過了15次也比較破裂因為雙方有達到幾個項目可能已經有合資了但是有其他的項目大概在程序法定的程序跟所謂名詞上所以您是樂觀的\n\n4\n00:00:54,251 --> 00:01:01,918\n我不悲觀啦,我不能講樂觀,因為這個是雙方都要有一定程度的compromise、妥協。談判其實就是雙方的角力嘛,對不對?也是妥協啦,角力也是妥協。我們能夠用能力或證據達成共識,其實也是您深處統籌處理大陸事務組委。\n\n5\n00:01:15,832 --> 00:01:18,854\n您如果談判破裂的話就如您剛剛講可能還有一些問題存在達不了共識其實你是最緊張也是最擔心的對不對\n\n6\n00:01:24,777 --> 00:01:49,102\n當然我一定會持續關注那也戒慎恐懼好謝謝那周英明在這邊回答我們大家說這個只是一個個案你又講了兩岸的溝通管道其實很順暢似乎感覺到我沒有講順暢還是有溝通管道好的好溝通管道那我就問你這個溝通管道到底是什麼是誰然後是不是有效\n\n7\n00:01:51,363 --> 00:02:10,914\n呃當然委員你要講有效的沒有我說是誰那基本上我剛剛有提到公共管道是誰不是市民立委會還是海基會還是還有更神秘的人沒有我沒有不是我要回整整個的回答第一個剛剛提到了我們過去三十幾年來你講太多了之後我先就問你兩個問題這個都是公共管道我剛剛問你到底是誰你就說是誰就好了好嗎\n\n8\n00:02:20,279 --> 00:02:33,868\n還是整個行政院最後整理出一個談判的小組所以就是海委會的副署長在去做談判我們國家我們的政府沒有派代表在後面有一個統籌\n\n9\n00:02:35,549 --> 00:03:01,641\n我剛剛提到了就是說他有分事務性的個案性的所以你的意思是說談判的代表裡面每一個人都在行政院的所屬的那個單位的代表都在沒有跟他不相關的他不需要在嘛比如說像這一次那有哪一些相關的他原則上大概就是你們一直談到的國家安全跟法律那些人有參加嗎你說什麼你一直在談到的國家的安全或者是法律上的問題我們的國安會有人參加嗎\n\n10\n00:03:02,421 --> 00:03:27,032\n他們只是他們是一個所謂的政策的單位不是好啦謝謝好啦好啦我們的海委會說是依法行政當然我也相信必須要依法行政但是呢他們又講了一切的證據都交給檢調了既然我們第一海巡署海委會也好在那邊回答說一直強力說我們沒有錯然後呢又有有力的證據然後又講人道關懷怎麼講\n\n11\n00:03:29,853 --> 00:03:48,295\n我的邏輯判斷啦這種談判應該是十拿九穩嗎?會成功嗎?為什麼會破裂?為什麼到現在還談不下來?到底是什麼?簡單回答一下就所謂的慰問金的部分呢基本上大概比較接近了但是在名詞上面\n\n12\n00:03:48,755 --> 00:03:53,339\n沒有我說我剛剛你沒有聽清楚我的問題我說既然我們說我們沒有錯而且我們又有有利的證據因為你們說說因為海巡署在這邊回答說有利的證據都交給了我們的檢調嘛既然交給了檢調在談判的現場為什麼不把這些東西拿出來然後來談判有利於大家不要再有這麼多的紛爭嗎\n\n13\n00:04:10,592 --> 00:04:18,014\n那海巡署他講他有利陸方不一定會接受嗎他有航機軌跡一圖然後又有碰撞啊然後這個碰撞是事實啊那這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候他不願意提出這個事情是不是檢察官有做什麼樣的指示嗎好謝謝您的回答好您的回答也是交給檢調的然後可能在談判所以在談判的時候這些證據就拿不出來就不拿出來就是了\n\n14\n00:04:39,059 --> 00:04:39,860\n海巡署對於政務的程序\n\n15\n00:05:00,541 --> 00:05:26,000\n按照我們剛剛談到這些這個這個撞船事件我們看到我們的政府說法好像不太一樣所以呢我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子第一個我們來看到就是2月20號我們的陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候他就針對兩岸議題提到即使面對威脅台灣始終會堅持民主多元尊重人權的生活方式那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了\n\n16\n00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:27,581\n首先我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針\n\n17\n00:05:55,471 --> 00:06:11,180\n陳院長一直高喊著人權可是3月1號我們大家都看到了在陸配身份證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了他說知識體大保持保留的態度\n\n18\n00:06:12,641 --> 00:06:22,893\n最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎陸配身份證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題是2020年的時候執政黨也就是民進黨你們提出的我們看一下2022年你們提交行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到\n\n19\n00:06:33,704 --> 00:06:34,604\n提醒您喔一直\n\n20\n00:07:03,213 --> 00:07:03,253\n主席\n\n21\n00:07:14,847 --> 00:07:36,700\n有好那我要就要問您了當時當時是這樣現在又改口到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料還是如同麥玉珍委員說的因為2020年當時候是大選他們這些外配也好陸配也好在大選當中被大家搶來搶去請問是哪一個\n\n22\n00:07:39,501 --> 00:07:46,404\n我跟委員做一個歷史的回顧報告不要再歷史回顧你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛對不對那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣當時2020年的時候就不是知識體大現在就知識體大為什麼因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來的\n\n23\n00:08:04,161 --> 00:08:10,324\n國民黨政府在101年我只要告訴你為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法國民黨多數沒有通就是因為爭議大那2020年在大選的時候你們也回出來啊因為委員我當然可以提出你擔心立法院但是政府會拿出外配一定來做比較\n\n24\n00:08:25,031 --> 00:08:34,478\n好那我現在在跟你講我現在在跟你講剛剛民進黨立委有提出非常多我認為我認為這都是假消息啦第一外界裡面有提出很多問題我舉三個例子第一個是國安問題請問一下如果是國安問題的話我們有任何任何一個數據可以支持陸配比起外配更容易違反所謂的相關法律嗎如果沒有這個就是假議題對不對好第二個我要講的是健保濫用的問題剛剛有人講\n\n25\n00:08:53,753 --> 00:09:21,193\n湯青的陸配的家屬會濫用健保很多人都講目前依照我們的法規陸配的家屬如果要居留6個月以上他才可以使用健保嘛但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以待過6個月超過6個月啊所以我認為這也是假議題啊然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以有直接定居所以他們會浪費健保\n\n26\n00:09:22,334 --> 00:09:31,700\n現在剛剛看到數據的你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已就是70歲或過70歲以上的家屬這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保所以健保問題他也是一個假議題啊然後他也提到一個就是剛剛講的陸配不用拋棄國籍而外配是要但是呢陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍現在是如此嘛對不對實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論\n\n27\n00:09:51,212 --> 00:10:04,778\n所以這些民進黨立委他覺得不公平為什麼在當時只剩8年這當中尤其2020年你們也提到的這個人權的部分你們為什麼不修改這些東西呢為什麼要現在造成這麼大的爭議\n\n28\n00:10:07,219 --> 00:10:17,722\n委員我想外界各有各的關注點我們沒有辦法評論但是我們總結就是剛剛過去的經驗101年的草案也好或105年國民黨時代提出的草案也好它為什麼最後還是沒有過那就是因為很多的問題會糾結在一起就像我剛剛提到的它是一個潘朵大的盒子\n\n29\n00:10:31,192 --> 00:10:33,173\n知識體大,所以本席認為有非常多兩岸的問題不要用情緒發言,不要用意識形式發言\n\n30\n00:10:50,503 --> 00:10:50,723\n民進黨人權理念\n\n31\n00:11:08,396 --> 00:11:31,192\n同時呢也針對2024年民進黨對於這個人權的理念的跳票感到非常的錯愕我覺得這個又是一個非常明顯蔡英文她在任期宣布又在蔡英文任期裡面沒有辦法完成的案例的一個現實的條件好謝謝您今天的回答我覺得你想不斷的要追求了好謝謝董事長也謝謝我們就主委\n\n32\n00:11:38,329 --> 00:11:38,974\n您現在請提起公務員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t469\t請秋主委發言\n17367\t34541\t好謝謝主委基本撞船事件到現在已經快一個月了我們看到昨天的消息是雙方談判是破裂了請問您清楚知道我們談判幾次時間地點到底有哪一些談判代表然後陸委會的角色是什麼嗎可以簡單回答嗎\n36242\t50609\t談過了15次也比較破裂因為雙方有達到幾個項目可能已經有合資了但是有其他的項目大概在程序法定的程序跟所謂名詞上所以您是樂觀的\n54251\t61918\t我不悲觀啦,我不能講樂觀,因為這個是雙方都要有一定程度的compromise、妥協。談判其實就是雙方的角力嘛,對不對?也是妥協啦,角力也是妥協。我們能夠用能力或證據達成共識,其實也是您深處統籌處理大陸事務組委。\n75832\t78854\t您如果談判破裂的話就如您剛剛講可能還有一些問題存在達不了共識其實你是最緊張也是最擔心的對不對\n84777\t109102\t當然我一定會持續關注那也戒慎恐懼好謝謝那周英明在這邊回答我們大家說這個只是一個個案你又講了兩岸的溝通管道其實很順暢似乎感覺到我沒有講順暢還是有溝通管道好的好溝通管道那我就問你這個溝通管道到底是什麼是誰然後是不是有效\n111363\t130914\t呃當然委員你要講有效的沒有我說是誰那基本上我剛剛有提到公共管道是誰不是市民立委會還是海基會還是還有更神秘的人沒有我沒有不是我要回整整個的回答第一個剛剛提到了我們過去三十幾年來你講太多了之後我先就問你兩個問題這個都是公共管道我剛剛問你到底是誰你就說是誰就好了好嗎\n140279\t153868\t還是整個行政院最後整理出一個談判的小組所以就是海委會的副署長在去做談判我們國家我們的政府沒有派代表在後面有一個統籌\n155549\t181641\t我剛剛提到了就是說他有分事務性的個案性的所以你的意思是說談判的代表裡面每一個人都在行政院的所屬的那個單位的代表都在沒有跟他不相關的他不需要在嘛比如說像這一次那有哪一些相關的他原則上大概就是你們一直談到的國家安全跟法律那些人有參加嗎你說什麼你一直在談到的國家的安全或者是法律上的問題我們的國安會有人參加嗎\n182421\t207032\t他們只是他們是一個所謂的政策的單位不是好啦謝謝好啦好啦我們的海委會說是依法行政當然我也相信必須要依法行政但是呢他們又講了一切的證據都交給檢調了既然我們第一海巡署海委會也好在那邊回答說一直強力說我們沒有錯然後呢又有有力的證據然後又講人道關懷怎麼講\n209853\t228295\t我的邏輯判斷啦這種談判應該是十拿九穩嗎?會成功嗎?為什麼會破裂?為什麼到現在還談不下來?到底是什麼?簡單回答一下就所謂的慰問金的部分呢基本上大概比較接近了但是在名詞上面\n228755\t233339\t沒有我說我剛剛你沒有聽清楚我的問題我說既然我們說我們沒有錯而且我們又有有利的證據因為你們說說因為海巡署在這邊回答說有利的證據都交給了我們的檢調嘛既然交給了檢調在談判的現場為什麼不把這些東西拿出來然後來談判有利於大家不要再有這麼多的紛爭嗎\n250592\t258014\t那海巡署他講他有利 陸方不一定會接受嗎他有航機軌跡一圖然後又有碰撞啊 然後這個碰撞是事實啊那這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候他不願意提出這個事情是不是檢察官有做什麼樣的指示嗎好 謝謝您的回答好 您的回答也是交給檢調的然後可能在談判 所以在談判的時候這些證據就拿不出來就不拿出來就是了\n279059\t279860\t海巡署對於政務的程序\n300541\t326000\t按照我們剛剛談到這些這個這個撞船事件我們看到我們的政府說法好像不太一樣所以呢我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子第一個我們來看到就是2月20號我們的陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候他就針對兩岸議題提到即使面對威脅台灣始終會堅持民主多元尊重人權的生活方式那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了\n326220\t327581\t首先我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針\n355471\t371180\t陳院長一直高喊著人權可是3月1號我們大家都看到了在陸配身份證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了他說知識體大保持保留的態度\n372641\t382893\t最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎陸配身份證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題是2020年的時候執政黨也就是民進黨你們提出的我們看一下2022年你們提交行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到\n393704\t394604\t提醒您喔一直\n423213\t423253\t主席\n434847\t456700\t有好那我要就要問您了當時當時是這樣現在又改口到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料還是如同麥玉珍委員說的因為2020年當時候是大選他們這些外配也好陸配也好在大選當中被大家搶來搶去請問是哪一個\n459501\t466404\t我跟委員做一個歷史的回顧報告不要再歷史回顧你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛對不對那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣當時2020年的時候就不是知識體大現在就知識體大為什麼因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來的\n484161\t490324\t國民黨政府在101年我只要告訴你為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法 國民黨多數沒有通就是因為爭議大那2020年在大選的時候你們也回出來啊因為委員我當然可以提出你擔心立法院但是政府會拿出外配一定來做比較\n505031\t514478\t好那我現在在跟你講我現在在跟你講剛剛民進黨立委有提出非常多我認為我認為這都是假消息啦第一外界裡面有提出很多問題我舉三個例子第一個是國安問題請問一下如果是國安問題的話我們有任何任何一個數據可以支持陸配比起外配更容易違反所謂的相關法律嗎如果沒有這個就是假議題對不對好第二個我要講的是健保濫用的問題剛剛有人講\n533753\t561193\t湯青的陸配的家屬會濫用健保很多人都講目前依照我們的法規陸配的家屬如果要居留6個月以上他才可以使用健保嘛但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以待過6個月超過6個月啊所以我認為這也是假議題啊然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以有直接定居所以他們會浪費健保\n562334\t571700\t現在剛剛看到數據的你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已就是70歲或過70歲以上的家屬這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保所以健保問題他也是一個假議題啊然後他也提到一個就是剛剛講的陸配不用拋棄國籍而外配是要但是呢陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍現在是如此嘛對不對實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論\n591212\t604778\t所以這些民進黨立委他覺得不公平為什麼在當時只剩8年這當中尤其2020年你們也提到的這個人權的部分你們為什麼不修改這些東西呢為什麼要現在造成這麼大的爭議\n607219\t617722\t委員我想外界各有各的關注點我們沒有辦法評論但是我們總結就是剛剛過去的經驗101年的草案也好或105年國民黨時代提出的草案也好它為什麼最後還是沒有過那就是因為很多的問題會糾結在一起就像我剛剛提到的它是一個潘朵大的盒子\n631192\t633173\t知識體大,所以本席認為有非常多兩岸的問題不要用情緒發言,不要用意識形式發言\n650503\t650723\t民進黨人權理念\n668396\t691192\t同時呢也針對2024年民進黨對於這個人權的理念的跳票感到非常的錯愕我覺得這個又是一個非常明顯蔡英文她在任期宣布又在蔡英文任期裡面沒有辦法完成的案例的一個現實的條件好謝謝您今天的回答我覺得你想不斷的要追求了好謝謝董事長也謝謝我們就主委\n698329\t698974\t您現在請提起公務員\n","txt":"請秋主委發言\n好謝謝主委基本撞船事件到現在已經快一個月了我們看到昨天的消息是雙方談判是破裂了請問您清楚知道我們談判幾次時間地點到底有哪一些談判代表然後陸委會的角色是什麼嗎可以簡單回答嗎\n談過了15次也比較破裂因為雙方有達到幾個項目可能已經有合資了但是有其他的項目大概在程序法定的程序跟所謂名詞上所以您是樂觀的\n我不悲觀啦,我不能講樂觀,因為這個是雙方都要有一定程度的compromise、妥協。談判其實就是雙方的角力嘛,對不對?也是妥協啦,角力也是妥協。我們能夠用能力或證據達成共識,其實也是您深處統籌處理大陸事務組委。\n您如果談判破裂的話就如您剛剛講可能還有一些問題存在達不了共識其實你是最緊張也是最擔心的對不對\n當然我一定會持續關注那也戒慎恐懼好謝謝那周英明在這邊回答我們大家說這個只是一個個案你又講了兩岸的溝通管道其實很順暢似乎感覺到我沒有講順暢還是有溝通管道好的好溝通管道那我就問你這個溝通管道到底是什麼是誰然後是不是有效\n呃當然委員你要講有效的沒有我說是誰那基本上我剛剛有提到公共管道是誰不是市民立委會還是海基會還是還有更神秘的人沒有我沒有不是我要回整整個的回答第一個剛剛提到了我們過去三十幾年來你講太多了之後我先就問你兩個問題這個都是公共管道我剛剛問你到底是誰你就說是誰就好了好嗎\n還是整個行政院最後整理出一個談判的小組所以就是海委會的副署長在去做談判我們國家我們的政府沒有派代表在後面有一個統籌\n我剛剛提到了就是說他有分事務性的個案性的所以你的意思是說談判的代表裡面每一個人都在行政院的所屬的那個單位的代表都在沒有跟他不相關的他不需要在嘛比如說像這一次那有哪一些相關的他原則上大概就是你們一直談到的國家安全跟法律那些人有參加嗎你說什麼你一直在談到的國家的安全或者是法律上的問題我們的國安會有人參加嗎\n他們只是他們是一個所謂的政策的單位不是好啦謝謝好啦好啦我們的海委會說是依法行政當然我也相信必須要依法行政但是呢他們又講了一切的證據都交給檢調了既然我們第一海巡署海委會也好在那邊回答說一直強力說我們沒有錯然後呢又有有力的證據然後又講人道關懷怎麼講\n我的邏輯判斷啦這種談判應該是十拿九穩嗎?會成功嗎?為什麼會破裂?為什麼到現在還談不下來?到底是什麼?簡單回答一下就所謂的慰問金的部分呢基本上大概比較接近了但是在名詞上面\n沒有我說我剛剛你沒有聽清楚我的問題我說既然我們說我們沒有錯而且我們又有有利的證據因為你們說說因為海巡署在這邊回答說有利的證據都交給了我們的檢調嘛既然交給了檢調在談判的現場為什麼不把這些東西拿出來然後來談判有利於大家不要再有這麼多的紛爭嗎\n那海巡署他講他有利 陸方不一定會接受嗎他有航機軌跡一圖然後又有碰撞啊 然後這個碰撞是事實啊那這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候他不願意提出這個事情是不是檢察官有做什麼樣的指示嗎好 謝謝您的回答好 您的回答也是交給檢調的然後可能在談判 所以在談判的時候這些證據就拿不出來就不拿出來就是了\n海巡署對於政務的程序\n按照我們剛剛談到這些這個這個撞船事件我們看到我們的政府說法好像不太一樣所以呢我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子第一個我們來看到就是2月20號我們的陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候他就針對兩岸議題提到即使面對威脅台灣始終會堅持民主多元尊重人權的生活方式那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了\n首先我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針\n陳院長一直高喊著人權可是3月1號我們大家都看到了在陸配身份證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了他說知識體大保持保留的態度\n最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎陸配身份證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題是2020年的時候執政黨也就是民進黨你們提出的我們看一下2022年你們提交行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到\n提醒您喔一直\n主席\n有好那我要就要問您了當時當時是這樣現在又改口到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料還是如同麥玉珍委員說的因為2020年當時候是大選他們這些外配也好陸配也好在大選當中被大家搶來搶去請問是哪一個\n我跟委員做一個歷史的回顧報告不要再歷史回顧你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛對不對那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣當時2020年的時候就不是知識體大現在就知識體大為什麼因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來的\n國民黨政府在101年我只要告訴你為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法 國民黨多數沒有通就是因為爭議大那2020年在大選的時候你們也回出來啊因為委員我當然可以提出你擔心立法院但是政府會拿出外配一定來做比較\n好那我現在在跟你講我現在在跟你講剛剛民進黨立委有提出非常多我認為我認為這都是假消息啦第一外界裡面有提出很多問題我舉三個例子第一個是國安問題請問一下如果是國安問題的話我們有任何任何一個數據可以支持陸配比起外配更容易違反所謂的相關法律嗎如果沒有這個就是假議題對不對好第二個我要講的是健保濫用的問題剛剛有人講\n湯青的陸配的家屬會濫用健保很多人都講目前依照我們的法規陸配的家屬如果要居留6個月以上他才可以使用健保嘛但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以待過6個月超過6個月啊所以我認為這也是假議題啊然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以有直接定居所以他們會浪費健保\n現在剛剛看到數據的你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已就是70歲或過70歲以上的家屬這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保所以健保問題他也是一個假議題啊然後他也提到一個就是剛剛講的陸配不用拋棄國籍而外配是要但是呢陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍現在是如此嘛對不對實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論\n所以這些民進黨立委他覺得不公平為什麼在當時只剩8年這當中尤其2020年你們也提到的這個人權的部分你們為什麼不修改這些東西呢為什麼要現在造成這麼大的爭議\n委員我想外界各有各的關注點我們沒有辦法評論但是我們總結就是剛剛過去的經驗101年的草案也好或105年國民黨時代提出的草案也好它為什麼最後還是沒有過那就是因為很多的問題會糾結在一起就像我剛剛提到的它是一個潘朵大的盒子\n知識體大,所以本席認為有非常多兩岸的問題不要用情緒發言,不要用意識形式發言\n民進黨人權理念\n同時呢也針對2024年民進黨對於這個人權的理念的跳票感到非常的錯愕我覺得這個又是一個非常明顯蔡英文她在任期宣布又在蔡英文任期裡面沒有辦法完成的案例的一個現實的條件好謝謝您今天的回答我覺得你想不斷的要追求了好謝謝董事長也謝謝我們就主委\n您現在請提起公務員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.469\n請秋主委發言\n\n00:17.367 --> 00:34.541\n好謝謝主委基本撞船事件到現在已經快一個月了我們看到昨天的消息是雙方談判是破裂了請問您清楚知道我們談判幾次時間地點到底有哪一些談判代表然後陸委會的角色是什麼嗎可以簡單回答嗎\n\n00:36.242 --> 00:50.609\n談過了15次也比較破裂因為雙方有達到幾個項目可能已經有合資了但是有其他的項目大概在程序法定的程序跟所謂名詞上所以您是樂觀的\n\n00:54.251 --> 01:01.918\n我不悲觀啦,我不能講樂觀,因為這個是雙方都要有一定程度的compromise、妥協。談判其實就是雙方的角力嘛,對不對?也是妥協啦,角力也是妥協。我們能夠用能力或證據達成共識,其實也是您深處統籌處理大陸事務組委。\n\n01:15.832 --> 01:18.854\n您如果談判破裂的話就如您剛剛講可能還有一些問題存在達不了共識其實你是最緊張也是最擔心的對不對\n\n01:24.777 --> 01:49.102\n當然我一定會持續關注那也戒慎恐懼好謝謝那周英明在這邊回答我們大家說這個只是一個個案你又講了兩岸的溝通管道其實很順暢似乎感覺到我沒有講順暢還是有溝通管道好的好溝通管道那我就問你這個溝通管道到底是什麼是誰然後是不是有效\n\n01:51.363 --> 02:10.914\n呃當然委員你要講有效的沒有我說是誰那基本上我剛剛有提到公共管道是誰不是市民立委會還是海基會還是還有更神秘的人沒有我沒有不是我要回整整個的回答第一個剛剛提到了我們過去三十幾年來你講太多了之後我先就問你兩個問題這個都是公共管道我剛剛問你到底是誰你就說是誰就好了好嗎\n\n02:20.279 --> 02:33.868\n還是整個行政院最後整理出一個談判的小組所以就是海委會的副署長在去做談判我們國家我們的政府沒有派代表在後面有一個統籌\n\n02:35.549 --> 03:01.641\n我剛剛提到了就是說他有分事務性的個案性的所以你的意思是說談判的代表裡面每一個人都在行政院的所屬的那個單位的代表都在沒有跟他不相關的他不需要在嘛比如說像這一次那有哪一些相關的他原則上大概就是你們一直談到的國家安全跟法律那些人有參加嗎你說什麼你一直在談到的國家的安全或者是法律上的問題我們的國安會有人參加嗎\n\n03:02.421 --> 03:27.032\n他們只是他們是一個所謂的政策的單位不是好啦謝謝好啦好啦我們的海委會說是依法行政當然我也相信必須要依法行政但是呢他們又講了一切的證據都交給檢調了既然我們第一海巡署海委會也好在那邊回答說一直強力說我們沒有錯然後呢又有有力的證據然後又講人道關懷怎麼講\n\n03:29.853 --> 03:48.295\n我的邏輯判斷啦這種談判應該是十拿九穩嗎?會成功嗎?為什麼會破裂?為什麼到現在還談不下來?到底是什麼?簡單回答一下就所謂的慰問金的部分呢基本上大概比較接近了但是在名詞上面\n\n03:48.755 --> 03:53.339\n沒有我說我剛剛你沒有聽清楚我的問題我說既然我們說我們沒有錯而且我們又有有利的證據因為你們說說因為海巡署在這邊回答說有利的證據都交給了我們的檢調嘛既然交給了檢調在談判的現場為什麼不把這些東西拿出來然後來談判有利於大家不要再有這麼多的紛爭嗎\n\n04:10.592 --> 04:18.014\n那海巡署他講他有利陸方不一定會接受嗎他有航機軌跡一圖然後又有碰撞啊然後這個碰撞是事實啊那這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候他不願意提出這個事情是不是檢察官有做什麼樣的指示嗎好謝謝您的回答好您的回答也是交給檢調的然後可能在談判所以在談判的時候這些證據就拿不出來就不拿出來就是了\n\n04:39.059 --> 04:39.860\n海巡署對於政務的程序\n\n05:00.541 --> 05:26.000\n按照我們剛剛談到這些這個這個撞船事件我們看到我們的政府說法好像不太一樣所以呢我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子第一個我們來看到就是2月20號我們的陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候他就針對兩岸議題提到即使面對威脅台灣始終會堅持民主多元尊重人權的生活方式那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了\n\n05:26.220 --> 05:27.581\n首先我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針\n\n05:55.471 --> 06:11.180\n陳院長一直高喊著人權可是3月1號我們大家都看到了在陸配身份證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了他說知識體大保持保留的態度\n\n06:12.641 --> 06:22.893\n最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎陸配身份證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題是2020年的時候執政黨也就是民進黨你們提出的我們看一下2022年你們提交行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到\n\n06:33.704 --> 06:34.604\n提醒您喔一直\n\n07:03.213 --> 07:03.253\n主席\n\n07:14.847 --> 07:36.700\n有好那我要就要問您了當時當時是這樣現在又改口到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料還是如同麥玉珍委員說的因為2020年當時候是大選他們這些外配也好陸配也好在大選當中被大家搶來搶去請問是哪一個\n\n07:39.501 --> 07:46.404\n我跟委員做一個歷史的回顧報告不要再歷史回顧你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛對不對那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣當時2020年的時候就不是知識體大現在就知識體大為什麼因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來的\n\n08:04.161 --> 08:10.324\n國民黨政府在101年我只要告訴你為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法國民黨多數沒有通就是因為爭議大那2020年在大選的時候你們也回出來啊因為委員我當然可以提出你擔心立法院但是政府會拿出外配一定來做比較\n\n08:25.031 --> 08:34.478\n好那我現在在跟你講我現在在跟你講剛剛民進黨立委有提出非常多我認為我認為這都是假消息啦第一外界裡面有提出很多問題我舉三個例子第一個是國安問題請問一下如果是國安問題的話我們有任何任何一個數據可以支持陸配比起外配更容易違反所謂的相關法律嗎如果沒有這個就是假議題對不對好第二個我要講的是健保濫用的問題剛剛有人講\n\n08:53.753 --> 09:21.193\n湯青的陸配的家屬會濫用健保很多人都講目前依照我們的法規陸配的家屬如果要居留6個月以上他才可以使用健保嘛但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以待過6個月超過6個月啊所以我認為這也是假議題啊然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以有直接定居所以他們會浪費健保\n\n09:22.334 --> 09:31.700\n現在剛剛看到數據的你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已就是70歲或過70歲以上的家屬這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保所以健保問題他也是一個假議題啊然後他也提到一個就是剛剛講的陸配不用拋棄國籍而外配是要但是呢陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍現在是如此嘛對不對實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論\n\n09:51.212 --> 10:04.778\n所以這些民進黨立委他覺得不公平為什麼在當時只剩8年這當中尤其2020年你們也提到的這個人權的部分你們為什麼不修改這些東西呢為什麼要現在造成這麼大的爭議\n\n10:07.219 --> 10:17.722\n委員我想外界各有各的關注點我們沒有辦法評論但是我們總結就是剛剛過去的經驗101年的草案也好或105年國民黨時代提出的草案也好它為什麼最後還是沒有過那就是因為很多的問題會糾結在一起就像我剛剛提到的它是一個潘朵大的盒子\n\n10:31.192 --> 10:33.173\n知識體大,所以本席認為有非常多兩岸的問題不要用情緒發言,不要用意識形式發言\n\n10:50.503 --> 10:50.723\n民進黨人權理念\n\n11:08.396 --> 11:31.192\n同時呢也針對2024年民進黨對於這個人權的理念的跳票感到非常的錯愕我覺得這個又是一個非常明顯蔡英文她在任期宣布又在蔡英文任期裡面沒有辦法完成的案例的一個現實的條件好謝謝您今天的回答我覺得你想不斷的要追求了好謝謝董事長也謝謝我們就主委\n\n11:38.329 --> 11:38.974\n您現在請提起公務員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.469,"text":"請秋主委發言"},{"start":17.367,"end":34.541,"text":"好謝謝主委基本撞船事件到現在已經快一個月了我們看到昨天的消息是雙方談判是破裂了請問您清楚知道我們談判幾次時間地點到底有哪一些談判代表然後陸委會的角色是什麼嗎可以簡單回答嗎"},{"start":36.242,"end":50.609,"text":"談過了15次也比較破裂因為雙方有達到幾個項目可能已經有合資了但是有其他的項目大概在程序法定的程序跟所謂名詞上所以您是樂觀的"},{"start":54.251,"end":61.918,"text":"我不悲觀啦,我不能講樂觀,因為這個是雙方都要有一定程度的compromise、妥協。談判其實就是雙方的角力嘛,對不對?也是妥協啦,角力也是妥協。我們能夠用能力或證據達成共識,其實也是您深處統籌處理大陸事務組委。"},{"start":75.832,"end":78.854,"text":"您如果談判破裂的話就如您剛剛講可能還有一些問題存在達不了共識其實你是最緊張也是最擔心的對不對"},{"start":84.777,"end":109.102,"text":"當然我一定會持續關注那也戒慎恐懼好謝謝那周英明在這邊回答我們大家說這個只是一個個案你又講了兩岸的溝通管道其實很順暢似乎感覺到我沒有講順暢還是有溝通管道好的好溝通管道那我就問你這個溝通管道到底是什麼是誰然後是不是有效"},{"start":111.363,"end":130.914,"text":"呃當然委員你要講有效的沒有我說是誰那基本上我剛剛有提到公共管道是誰不是市民立委會還是海基會還是還有更神秘的人沒有我沒有不是我要回整整個的回答第一個剛剛提到了我們過去三十幾年來你講太多了之後我先就問你兩個問題這個都是公共管道我剛剛問你到底是誰你就說是誰就好了好嗎"},{"start":140.279,"end":153.868,"text":"還是整個行政院最後整理出一個談判的小組所以就是海委會的副署長在去做談判我們國家我們的政府沒有派代表在後面有一個統籌"},{"start":155.549,"end":181.641,"text":"我剛剛提到了就是說他有分事務性的個案性的所以你的意思是說談判的代表裡面每一個人都在行政院的所屬的那個單位的代表都在沒有跟他不相關的他不需要在嘛比如說像這一次那有哪一些相關的他原則上大概就是你們一直談到的國家安全跟法律那些人有參加嗎你說什麼你一直在談到的國家的安全或者是法律上的問題我們的國安會有人參加嗎"},{"start":182.421,"end":207.032,"text":"他們只是他們是一個所謂的政策的單位不是好啦謝謝好啦好啦我們的海委會說是依法行政當然我也相信必須要依法行政但是呢他們又講了一切的證據都交給檢調了既然我們第一海巡署海委會也好在那邊回答說一直強力說我們沒有錯然後呢又有有力的證據然後又講人道關懷怎麼講"},{"start":209.853,"end":228.295,"text":"我的邏輯判斷啦這種談判應該是十拿九穩嗎?會成功嗎?為什麼會破裂?為什麼到現在還談不下來?到底是什麼?簡單回答一下就所謂的慰問金的部分呢基本上大概比較接近了但是在名詞上面"},{"start":228.755,"end":233.339,"text":"沒有我說我剛剛你沒有聽清楚我的問題我說既然我們說我們沒有錯而且我們又有有利的證據因為你們說說因為海巡署在這邊回答說有利的證據都交給了我們的檢調嘛既然交給了檢調在談判的現場為什麼不把這些東西拿出來然後來談判有利於大家不要再有這麼多的紛爭嗎"},{"start":250.592,"end":258.014,"text":"那海巡署他講他有利 陸方不一定會接受嗎他有航機軌跡一圖然後又有碰撞啊 然後這個碰撞是事實啊那這個就要看海巡署為什麼在談判的時候他不願意提出這個事情是不是檢察官有做什麼樣的指示嗎好 謝謝您的回答好 您的回答也是交給檢調的然後可能在談判 所以在談判的時候這些證據就拿不出來就不拿出來就是了"},{"start":279.059,"end":279.86,"text":"海巡署對於政務的程序"},{"start":300.541,"end":326,"text":"按照我們剛剛談到這些這個這個撞船事件我們看到我們的政府說法好像不太一樣所以呢我待會就要談幾個不太一樣的例子第一個我們來看到就是2月20號我們的陳院長他口頭施政報告的時候他就針對兩岸議題提到即使面對威脅台灣始終會堅持民主多元尊重人權的生活方式那麼在這一次你的業務報告裡面也提到了"},{"start":326.22,"end":327.581,"text":"首先我要肯定您的立場還有陳院長的方針"},{"start":355.471,"end":371.18,"text":"陳院長一直高喊著人權可是3月1號我們大家都看到了在陸配身份證取得的年限比照外配這一件事情上他又改口了他說知識體大保持保留的態度"},{"start":372.641,"end":382.893,"text":"最令人意外的是什麼你知道嗎陸配身份證取得的年限還有比照外配的議題是2020年的時候執政黨也就是民進黨你們提出的我們看一下2022年你們提交行政院提交的相關人權報告裡面你們就怎麼樣落實陸配人權有寫到"},{"start":393.704,"end":394.604,"text":"提醒您喔一直"},{"start":423.213,"end":423.253,"text":"主席"},{"start":434.847,"end":456.7,"text":"有好那我要就要問您了當時當時是這樣現在又改口到底是政府給社會大眾或者是給國際上的假資料還是如同麥玉珍委員說的因為2020年當時候是大選他們這些外配也好陸配也好在大選當中被大家搶來搶去請問是哪一個"},{"start":459.501,"end":466.404,"text":"我跟委員做一個歷史的回顧報告不要再歷史回顧你剛剛說2020年陸委會也參與其中嘛對不對那為什麼陸委會跟現在你們的看法又不一樣當時2020年的時候就不是知識體大現在就知識體大為什麼因為這個從第一次2010年的時候就已經提出來的"},{"start":484.161,"end":490.324,"text":"國民黨政府在101年我只要告訴你為什麼在立法院還是沒有辦法 國民黨多數沒有通就是因為爭議大那2020年在大選的時候你們也回出來啊因為委員我當然可以提出你擔心立法院但是政府會拿出外配一定來做比較"},{"start":505.031,"end":514.478,"text":"好那我現在在跟你講我現在在跟你講剛剛民進黨立委有提出非常多我認為我認為這都是假消息啦第一外界裡面有提出很多問題我舉三個例子第一個是國安問題請問一下如果是國安問題的話我們有任何任何一個數據可以支持陸配比起外配更容易違反所謂的相關法律嗎如果沒有這個就是假議題對不對好第二個我要講的是健保濫用的問題剛剛有人講"},{"start":533.753,"end":561.193,"text":"湯青的陸配的家屬會濫用健保很多人都講目前依照我們的法規陸配的家屬如果要居留6個月以上他才可以使用健保嘛但是我們兩岸人民關係條例的限制是他居留不可以待過6個月超過6個月啊所以我認為這也是假議題啊然後又講陸配70歲的家屬可以有直接定居所以他們會浪費健保"},{"start":562.334,"end":571.7,"text":"現在剛剛看到數據的你也說現在每年我們限制60位而已就是70歲或過70歲以上的家屬這樣子一來的話要怎麼樣浪費健保所以健保問題他也是一個假議題啊然後他也提到一個就是剛剛講的陸配不用拋棄國籍而外配是要但是呢陸配必須要放棄他的戶籍現在是如此嘛對不對實質上其實也等同外配放棄國籍這樣子的一個理論"},{"start":591.212,"end":604.778,"text":"所以這些民進黨立委他覺得不公平為什麼在當時只剩8年這當中尤其2020年你們也提到的這個人權的部分你們為什麼不修改這些東西呢為什麼要現在造成這麼大的爭議"},{"start":607.219,"end":617.722,"text":"委員我想外界各有各的關注點我們沒有辦法評論但是我們總結就是剛剛過去的經驗101年的草案也好或105年國民黨時代提出的草案也好它為什麼最後還是沒有過那就是因為很多的問題會糾結在一起就像我剛剛提到的它是一個潘朵大的盒子"},{"start":631.192,"end":633.173,"text":"知識體大,所以本席認為有非常多兩岸的問題不要用情緒發言,不要用意識形式發言"},{"start":650.503,"end":650.723,"text":"民進黨人權理念"},{"start":668.396,"end":691.192,"text":"同時呢也針對2024年民進黨對於這個人權的理念的跳票感到非常的錯愕我覺得這個又是一個非常明顯蔡英文她在任期宣布又在蔡英文任期裡面沒有辦法完成的案例的一個現實的條件好謝謝您今天的回答我覺得你想不斷的要追求了好謝謝董事長也謝謝我們就主委"},{"start":698.329,"end":698.974,"text":"您現在請提起公務員"}]}}}}