{"id":149552,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe29858fd39bf9ddaddc62c46c87ca327ff8ba9b0039caa7a695517a371d75927e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:38:55 - 11:58:59","影片長度":"00:20:04","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-4"},"date":"2024-03-07","duration":1204,"end_time":"2024-03-07T11:58:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-07T11:38:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":917,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時39分）主席、各位，大家午安。是不是還是請薛部長？"],["主席：部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，其實我還有蘇丹紅事件要跟你就教，但是因為藥價的問題，我跟新北市公會也稍微溝通了一下，所以有幾個簡單的問題先再一次地反映。","我必須要說，如果幾種藥品缺貨去換藥，我覺得在市場或者對用藥人來講，這個影響是無法避免的，如果是幾種而已。可是如果在藥局看到的現象是缺藥，民眾退單的比例高達30%以上，它可能就不是簡單的幾個問題，所以變成換藥潮的話，則我們的確要正視這個問題。但你們一直說是缺貨而不是缺藥，或者是你們在談的，三同、等同的狀況就可以治療，可是第一線的藥局的確發現，在換藥時，比如說以血壓藥為例，他們發現患者的反映是，用以前的藥大概血壓可以控制、維持在110，可是換了藥以後，再怎麼控制都總是在180，變成他只能夠回到大醫院去領原廠藥或是原來的藥，所以他們的確是有觀察到這個現象。","另外一種就是管制性的藥品，因為管制性藥品用藥人他本身就是很敏感的，當換藥的時候，他的確就更敏感了，有可能會特別的排斥。的確，過去我們也有一些藥廠做了很多不應該做的事，比如說很多年以前我揭發過的，就是沒有做BE測試，幾千份的藥品BE測試連做都沒做，你說學名藥藥效都是一樣的，可是後來發現他們有的藥甚至連藥證都沒有，而且還有幾千張的藥證是BE等同測試都沒做的，這些都是歷歷在目的，都是曾經發生過的，而且都是事實。","部長，你說三同，三同這個東西要宣傳。另外，我們採分級醫療，醫藥分業要專業化，然後我們鼓勵家醫也鼓勵社區藥局，可是藥局面臨了很大的困難，所以我們也是要想到，比如說分配不均，有藥要先分配給大醫院，他們一定就沒有了；再來，他們都是跟盤商要的，可是盤商因為種種因素不供藥了，或是有所謂的最少出貨量，像在藥廠裡面某些藥物是以1,000粒為一瓶的基本包裝，但藥局沒用到那麼多，所以這些都是可以解決的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：而且人家的反映你們要聽也要解決啊！然後學名藥及三同的替代你們也是要宣導啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：的確也存在的藥商只注重經濟效益高的產品，這個是事實，部長，是吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。委員剛才提到的幾個我們都非常的贊同，比如說三同的學名藥需要去做promote，讓民眾比較能夠接……"],["林委員淑芬：花很多錢在宣導，但這種東西都沒看到你們的宣導。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們會持續而且會加強去做，因為這會關係到國內的一些命脈；第二個部分，剛剛委員有提到，就是藥物調度的問題，比方說社區藥局的藥物調度，還有盤商等等，關於這個部分，因為新的制度我們才剛剛建立起來，包括對於盤商的一個監測，幸好國內大的盤商他們都願意來做配合，所以這個部分我們就可以來做監測，像社區藥局如果是缺貨的時候，我們是不是可以請盤商來做調度；如果中盤商沒有辦法調度的話，我們就找藥商……"],["林委員淑芬：中盤商不能調度的理由和原因很多，所以你們也是要去瞭解這個合不合理。"],["薛部長瑞元：對！對！對！因為這個部分的話……"],["林委員淑芬：他們最常講的一個理由是，現在進貨的藥價到未來賣的時候都是賠本的，我的意思是說，這是其中一個理由啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對！我知道，但是那個是在藥價調漲的時間……"],["林委員淑芬：當然中盤商還有一個大理由，就是因為我們PIC/S GDP裡面還包含冷鏈的系統，所以他們冷鏈若有不合格，是不是也應該繼續輔導、趕快輔導？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，這部分我會處理。"],["林委員淑芬：好。我還是要談蘇丹紅事件，蘇丹紅事件很嚴重，因為你說你不能保證在架上的都是安全的、沒有漏網之魚。現在看一下第8頁，這個是海順公司的產品，然後你看它的下一頁就是「香麻辣粉」，現在大家上momo網站，這個產品現在還在架上，3月7號、現在都還在架上……"],["薛部長瑞元：這應該要下架……"],["林委員淑芬：初衣食伍、海順，你們知道嗎？衛生局也知道海順，署長，它為什麼還在架上？你們所謂的檢出辣椒粉含蘇丹紅專區裡面，也沒有這種產品！"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分我們會查它的批次，到底現在的狀況是什麼，海順公司算是一個進口的……"],["林委員淑芬：不要講批次的問題。部長，我就把第2頁、第3頁的故事說給你聽一下，關於批次，我們什麼時候100%逐批查驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是去年的12月。"],["林委員淑芬：12月之後還有沒有人繼續進含有蘇丹紅產品的辣椒粉？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不會有，因為在邊境就會被阻斷掉。"],["林委員淑芬：我馬上拿給你看，部長，這是你們自己公告的，你看，邊境受理的時間是今年1月6號……"],["薛部長瑞元：查到就退運銷毀了啊！"],["林委員淑芬：我再問你，去年12月11號已經100%在查驗了，為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐，繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉？"],["薛部長瑞元：它進來被查到就會退了。"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講查到被退，我上禮拜就跟你們說了，查到沒關係、不會死，也不會賠錢，你就叫它退關、退回去中國而已。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！退了就已經是賠錢了。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有賠錢啦！我稍後再跟你說原因是什麼，這間是佳廣，這幾天講的同樣都是這一家公司，100%逐批查驗了，但它在1月6號仍然繼續進口，而且進口量有多高呢？據我所知，好像1月6號有進口1萬3,696公斤；後來它被退了，如你們所說被退了，1月30號被查出不合格，要求它退，但它1月30號之後卻還繼續進口，不是，是1月28號，沒關係。","在去年12月11號你們發布100%逐批查驗的時候，它仍然在進口，我這裡總共有三張，都是今年才進口的，這三張分別是1萬5,000公斤、1萬3,000公斤不等，加起來大概4、5萬公斤，仍然都被驗出含有蘇丹紅然後被退關，為什麼它被退了不要緊，你知道嗎？","我們來看龍海同記，因為它的出口商不是Kavin Shipping而是這間，你們沒本事查，我都查好了，其實你們都知道，它從中國出口到我們這裡的出口商是龍海同記，你不要以為這是中國廠商，這就是他們自己，因為臺灣李彥廷也有登記一家「龍海同記」，這就是他們自己，而剛才中國的那間、在中國登記的，1997年就成立了，1997年就有食品原料、食品加工等等；為什麼它在溯源追蹤系統中登記的是Kavin Shipping？因為裡面真正的出口商是龍海同記，你退關退回去也是退到他們自己的公司，退回去中國也是退回他們自己的公司。","所以我們看一下這個業者它有幾家公司，部長，我剛才提到初衣食伍是哪一家公司？是海順。我禮拜一就已經說它有4間了，現在又多了一個海順，事實上不只如此，你看他們還有多少？還有津棧、釜山、廣元、龍海、杰展、佳廣、初衣食伍素食食品有限公司，素食業淪陷了！還有鼎記海順國際，我剛才講的龍海同記，它在臺灣也有登記，整個看起來就有9間了，現在已經出包了，這9家你有沒有全部都查？食藥署署長，你有沒有全部都查？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想這個部分的話，對於個別的廠商如果有輸入這種違規的東西，我們就會禁止他們進口。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我不是在說「如果」的問題啦！我跟你說，至少津棧、佳廣都已經爆發食安事件了，至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多，這個經營者他們至少有很多家公司的時候，起碼你要啟動真正的調查啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們會來做調查。"],["林委員淑芬：不是現在啦！部長、署長，怎麼是立委爆了你們才調查？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是！不是！因為它是個別登記的公司，所以我們還是必須要掌握……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼立委google就有了？整個食藥署專業的人力有一千多人，你政策責付出去，地方政府也有人力，今天在這裡，我覺得行政部門是有道德風險的，你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎？你們有辦法查好查滿嗎？查好查滿後會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大？當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候，是不是就不能太認真？所以不做不錯、多做多錯。"],["薛部長瑞元：不會有這種問題發生。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在看到的就是這樣子啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！委員這應該是誤會啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我google就可以知道它有9家公司，你知道它還有一家工廠登記嗎？好，來看這個鐵皮屋工廠，我不是講公司登記，而是工廠登記，你們有去查廠嗎？你們有去這個地方查過廠嗎？因為所有要摻蘇丹紅的除了將辣椒磨成粉末以外，那是要加工摻入的，是加工過程才摻入的，它現在有一種是邊境就摻入，還有加工廠等等，我只簡單問你這間工廠登記證是哪一家工廠登記證？名字叫什麼？FDA知道嗎？你不知道！它有9間公司，你也不知道！部長你不知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：從委員的資料來判斷，你應該是用地址去查的……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啊！公司登記用「吳克敏」3字來查也可以啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我沒辦法用這樣的方式去查啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我不用去查，我只要google就有了，google臺灣公司網就有了，google「佳廣」，它就會告訴你佳廣還有其他的分公司，有沒有？你google「佳廣」兩個字就可以找到全部，連它的工廠登記都有，我這個就是從工廠登記來的。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過，行政機關在做事情的時候，還是要一個、一個公司去做處理。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在是說立委google就有了，但行政機關你們沒辦法做，那就是你們的道德風險嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：不是這樣子啦！"],["林委員淑芬：你們怕查太多會像滾雪球啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：會爆的就一定會爆，尤其是這種……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在再告訴你，不是會爆了就會爆了，而是都沒有爆啊！林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司，你會去查這9家嗎？沒有！我今天講出初衣食伍素食食品公司，3月7號、現在在momo網站上都還有，現在大家google進去都還有，它還有特價，從3月1號到3月7號享最低價格八三折。","再來，我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外，整個事件我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是，如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律，然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統、追蹤追溯系統的時候，我們政府不斷地跟大家講，你要來登錄；你要自律；如果你被我查到了，我要重罰。今天查到了，你也說要重罰，但是我現在問你，業者查到要重罰，但是如果政府被人民查到、政府被立委查到，你們都沒有在管，要不要重罰？它現在上游的廠商登錄的名稱是虛偽的，下游的廠商隨便寫一寫、寫不齊全，然後你們根本都不查，所以讓那個溯源、追蹤追溯制度淪於假的形式，讓我們食安五環破功……"],["薛部長瑞元：不能這樣講……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，部長，不然你跟我說為什麼？我問你，它隨便說說它的供貨商是Kavin Shipping，你們新聞稿也登錄了，你們也承認了……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是事實，它申報的時候就是這個樣啊。"],["林委員淑芬：它申報是Kavin Shipping啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：是啊！"],["林委員淑芬：它都報假的，它在測試你政府的底線，它在測試你政府可不可以容許、會不會查嘛！然後下游的部分，高雄市政府說它提供不出完整的下游名單，它也沒有嘛！我現在再問你，星期一的時候食藥署署長說，他們都有登錄，他們是登錄第23類，署長，我現在再問你，我們47萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有1萬家，這1萬家在25個品項裡面，它到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登？因為這25項大多數都是鎖定在3,000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須要強登。"],["薛部長瑞元：輸入業者都一定要啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你，它是哪一個品項？你跟我講，它是第幾個品項所以必須強登？"],["薛部長瑞元：第23類！"],["林委員淑芬：第23類嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：輸入業者。"],["林委員淑芬：所有、每個輸入業者都要嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣我跟你說，好，剛才我說的那9家你們都還沒有查……"],["主席：請衛福部要積極去查。林委員，時間……"],["林委員淑芬：抱歉，我把它講完，我儘快講。"],["主席：再1分鐘，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要說的是，你們的科長告訴我們，這有登載不實，原因是它是第24類，不是第23類，到底是23還是24，你科長說的跟你署長說的不一樣。","再來，關於業者自律，嚴重的、被查到的要重罰，現在發現政府都沒有在管，人民發現你有嚴重的疏失、都沒有在管，這樣要不要重罰？事務官、公務員要懲處啊！部長，會不會懲處？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：他要不要繼續當署長是政治議題，我要問你的是，整個事件爆發後發現它虛偽登載，我們整個的食品雲系統、溯源系統都是亂寫的，政府沒有在管，業者也不怕，100%逐批查驗了，它還繼續進口4、5公斤含有蘇丹紅的辣椒粉，所以由此可知，瀆職得很嚴重！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個指控需要有一些證據的。"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有證據嗎？它登錄了Kavin Shipping作為上游公司，這不是證據嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：它是欺騙、是登錄不實……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在說的是你們沒有去查。"],["薛部長瑞元：查歸查，那是另外一回事。"],["林委員淑芬：你們有沒有定期檢視？"],["薛部長瑞元：若每一樣登錄上去我都要去查到最後的結果出來……"],["林委員淑芬：112年逐批抽驗到100%了，你可以不用查嗎？如果以它過去的紀錄，在邊境都有查到含有蘇丹紅，而且屢次的被發現，你不用去食品雲查嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩個不一樣的事情，我們對產品會去查，但是對公司要我們去查，我們沒有這個義務嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：你不用去食品雲查嗎？如果它是累犯，如果是屢屢發生，如果它是這樣子，我現在要說，這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做呢？你看……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們可以交由檢調來處理，如果是組織犯罪的話。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你說，它在臺灣也有工廠登記，也有公司9間，然後在中國也有，中國輸出廠商寫「龍海同記」，如果被抓到禁止輸入，它這間就被打槍、就沒用了，但是它還是用Kavin Shipping，所以……"],["主席：林委員，這個案子……"],["林委員淑芬：你還敢說你禁止了21家中國廠商，但你禁止的是Kavin Shipping……"],["主席：這個案子剛才部長有回答送檢調，我們支持如果有組織犯罪就送檢調……"],["林委員淑芬：你禁止的不是李彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同記，叫Eastrong，而且你們還有一個……"],["主席：委員，還有很多委員等著質詢……"],["林委員淑芬：我也搞不懂，因為在你們的新聞稿專區裡面，關於這21家中國被禁的廠商名稱，在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來，沒有放上這21家的名稱，而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方，要苦心地一直去問、去查，才查得到這21家，所以我很懷疑你們為什麼都不公布在你們的新聞稿專區，新聞稿專區沒有放上去過，這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員的質詢。請衛福部要積極地查緝，剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料，請積極去查。","接下來我們處理臨時提案，現在臨時提案總共有6案，請一併宣讀。","一、","衛生福利部為因應日益嚴重之藥品短缺問題，於去（112）年成立跨部門「藥品供應通報處理中心」，由中盤藥商定期通報藥品庫存資料，並通報藥品缺藥狀況，針對缺貨藥品再由食藥署公告替代藥品。惟目前做法仍偏向個案危機處理模式，食藥署對於嚴重缺藥時的藥品分配或調度機制未制度化，針對健保藥價調整等重大政策可能影響藥品供應狀況，亦缺乏風險管理及資訊透明，顯然仍有改進空間。爰要求衛福部食藥署應就各項藥品缺藥風險，及對疾病治療影響程度，建立完整缺藥預防和藥品調度機制，並以數據化和透明化方式，防止缺藥引發民眾恐慌。","提案人：王育敏　　陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","二、","我國社區藥局缺藥問題日益嚴重，包括慢性病處方箋用藥、三高常用血壓藥、抗生素等常用藥品常有缺貨情形，難以保障慢性病患用藥權益。經查，社區藥局目前佔整體藥品市場比例約一成，市佔率偏低，導致藥品供應與社區藥局難以簽訂穩定藥品穩定供應契約，一旦發生缺藥狀況，或是健保藥價調整時，社區藥局藥品缺貨風險也較高。","為確保社區藥局藥品供應穩定，及保障民眾用藥權益，爰要求衛福部食藥署針對如何提高社區藥局因應缺藥之應變能力，研擬社區藥局與物流業合作方式，以及成立藥品供應合作社等因應作為，於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　陳菁徽　　蘇清泉","三、","有鑑於台灣當前的「藥品費用分配比率目標制（DET）」實施過程中，出現了一個明顯的不公平現象，第一大類藥品（新藥、專利期內藥品）費用成長幅度較高，但藥價削減的重點卻落在第三大類藥品上。這種不平衡的做法不僅對學名藥市場造成不利影響，也可能阻礙整體藥品市場的健康發展。藥品DET辦法已經實施10年問題一大堆，醫界反對，藥界反對，原開發廠反對，國產也反對，百姓也不滿意，這個制度要重新檢討或者是廢止，另提辦法。爰要求衛生福利部於一個月內研擬改善方案，並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出解決辦法。","提案人：蘇清泉","連署人：廖偉翔　　王育敏","四、","缺藥問題嚴重並持續2年，醫師、藥師不斷呼籲政府應重視並提出解決之道，以保障人民健康權益！藥品穩定供應攸關人民健康權益甚鉅，「沒藥醫」將會直接衝擊生命安全，為政者不可輕忽。「缺藥議題」已經是公共政策中的沉痾，而藥價改革是解決缺藥問題之重要手段，故解決缺藥問題，必須基於維持藥品供應鏈韌性的前提下，確保藥品供應無虞，不能只是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，只針對部分缺藥通報的品項專案進口交差了事。再者，醫師反映很多病患對藥品的療效反應不同，要有足夠的用藥選擇才能讓醫師有足夠的武器幫助病患治療疾病，故要徹底解決缺藥困境，須同時以滿足醫師最佳處方選擇及照顧病患用藥權益為基礎；另為避免全球性藥品供應不穩定或兩岸關係影響，導致救命藥品無法順利進口、強化臨床需求必要性藥品在地生產能力，確保所有疾病患者有藥可用，以維護民眾生命權。爰要求衛福部在同時符合以下三項要件，各該品項之藥價不受藥價調整影響或排除在每年藥價調整之外：","(一)臨床上有需求─醫學會認證。","(二)鼓勵在地製造─領有食藥署核發「臺灣製造」藥品許可證。","(三)3張以下的稀缺藥證。","提案人：廖偉翔","連署人：陳菁徽　　邱鎮軍　　蘇清泉　　盧縣一　　王育敏","五、","案由：近年來醫事人員逐漸不堪壓榨，人力持續出走，開始影響醫療照護的品質。目前台灣的「經常性醫療保健支出占GDP百分比」只有6.1%，低於OECD國家平均的百分之九點六。其中健保費用占GDP的3.3%、藥品支出占GDP的1.1%，占比都明顯不足。長期以來，健保費率調漲相當困難。為維持現有的健保制度，健保署採取的手段往往都是要「省錢或節流」，所以有「健保總額支付制度」、「精進雲端醫療資訊」減少重覆用藥或檢查、藥價管控等。在「先節流、後開源」的要求下，管理者無止盡地擠壓醫療現場的合理作為，把省錢視為最高目標，反而忽視醫療人員的服務價值。另外在總額制度控管之下，醫事機構應得的給付長期被打九折甚至八折。長期管控與節流也讓醫療人力與資源只能勉強維持堪用的狀態，一旦遇到疫情甚至戰事，就會面臨醫療崩潰，醫療支出不應該視作成本，反而是對於國民健康的投資。","建請政府撥補財源以合理支應補充我國醫療品質：","(1)西醫、牙醫及中醫基層浮動點值保障一點0.95元。","(2)醫院浮動點值保障一點0.9元。","提案人：林俊憲　　黃秀芳","連署人：林月琴　　王正旭","六、","今(113)年食品藥物管理署查獲大量進口中國製辣椒粉，含致癌物「蘇丹色素三號」，目前中國製辣椒粉已進入市場，並大規模利用於加工食品，危害國人食安甚鉅，食藥署也無法保證市場完全沒有問題。","經查我國國中小學約一百六十五萬名學生食用營養午餐，若含蘇丹紅辣椒粉用於營養午餐，恐危害多數孩童健康，爰要求衛福部於市場內蘇丹紅辣椒粉為清查完畢前，應限制全國學校營養午餐食材添加辣椒粉。","提案人：王育敏　　蘇清泉　　涂權吉"],["主席：好，謝謝。請問第1案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["吳署長秀梅：主席，有關第1案的部分有文字的修正，修正的部分是在第2行還有第3行，這個部分我們是建議要刪掉，然後更換文字，即從「由中盤藥商……」到第3行的「……替代藥品」，這個要劃掉。我們希望可以改成「並已建立藥品短缺通報及評估處理程序」。","第2段的部分，有幾個簡單的字是希望可以劃掉的，就是第一句話後的「，……」那裡可以劃掉，就是「，及對疾病治療影響程度」這句話希望可以劃掉；然後，後面的「並以數據化和透明化方式……」我們要改成「並以透明化方式，防止缺藥引發民眾恐慌」。"],["主席：好，就按照修正後通過。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。"],["主席：處理第2案。"],["吳署長秀梅：第2案也是有文字的修正，第2段倒數第2行的「與物流業合作方式」我們希望劃掉；還有下一句話「，以及成立藥品供應合作社等」這句話也都劃掉，所以就是修正為「研擬社區藥局取得藥品之相關因應作為」。謝謝。"],["主席：好，照修正文字通過。","處理第3案。"],["石署長崇良：跟主席還有各位員報告，有關第3案檢討DET的提案，我們會積極來進行，不過，因為還需要有一些法規預告等等，是不是可以從1個月延長為3個月內研擬改善方案，提出解決辦法？"],["主席：好，另外剛剛有委員提到你們開相關檢討會議的時候，希望委員可以參與，這個部分可以嗎？"],["石署長崇良：可以！可以！沒有問題。"],["主席：那就拜託你們開相關檢討會議的時候，同時通知立法院委員辦公室，這樣關心的委員他就可以去列席。"],["石署長崇良：好，沒有問題。"],["主席：謝謝。處理第4案。"],["石署長崇良：跟主席還有各位委員報告，有關第4案提到對於一些稀缺藥證的藥品在調藥價的時候能夠予以排除，這個在精神上我們都支持，不過，我們希望略做一些文字的調整，就是「爰要求衛福部，於本次修法時必須參採同時符合以下三項要件，各該品項之藥價不受藥價調整影響或排除在每年藥價調整之外：一、臨床上有需求─醫學會認證或依藥事法第二十七條之二必要藥品清單。」；以下的文字就是照列。"],["主席：請問廖委員，可以嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：可以。"],["主席：好，就按修正通過。"],["石署長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：進行第5案。"],["石署長崇良：第5案林俊憲、黃秀芳委員的提案，有關於要政府撥補財源的部分，因為這還有很多的層級要討論，所以建議加二個字，就是建請政府「研議」撥補財源。"],["主席：黃秀芳委員，可以嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：可以。"],["主席：好，修正通過。"],["石署長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：處理第6案。"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，第6案有修正文字，第1行最後的「含致癌物」，我們建請修改為「含具有潛在致癌性」。"],["主席：好。"],["吳署長秀梅：謝謝。還有第2段的部分，第2段第2行的「爰要求衛福部」，我們希望可以增加文字，就是修正為「爰要求衛福部協調教育部於市場內蘇丹紅辣椒粉未清查完畢前，應通知團膳業者，暫停使用加辣椒粉」。"],["主席：不只是團膳業者，有一些是自辦廚房啊！所以你這樣子的寫法反而會漏掉一些。"],["吳署長秀梅：所以我們就修正為「通知營養午餐」，這樣應該就涵蓋全部了。"],["主席：對！對！對！"],["吳署長秀梅：修正為「應通知營養午餐業者，暫停使用加辣椒粉」。"],["主席：「應通知全國營養午餐業者」，按原來的文字就好，有什麼問題嗎？"],["吳署長秀梅：因為前面是寫到限制，我們這裡則是用「通知」他們暫停使用。"],["主席：通知暫停使用跟限制不是差不多嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我們不是主管機關。"],["主席：好，但語意要對。你剛剛那個語意怪怪的。"],["吳署長秀梅：我們就修正為「應通知全國營養午餐……"],["主席：沒關係，你們再研議一下，好不好？比較精確一點，然後再給本席看一下，因為還有時間，待會先讓委員質詢，好不好？"],["吳署長秀梅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：這一案原則通過，就是文字要修正，食藥署把再修正的文字再給本席。"],["吳署長秀梅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們的臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來我們請黃健豪委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-4","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林德福","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","李彥秀","林淑芬","黃健豪","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","林憶君","劉建國","陳瑩","楊曜","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-07"],"gazette_id":"1130901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、中央健康保險署、食品藥物管理署就「健保藥價調整，藥廠停產慢性病用\n藥之因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130901_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"149552","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149552","tool":"pyannote","id":"149552-pyannote"},"job_id":"vIt6gCFFkYHIoQkO","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 1201.309, \"end\": 1201.79, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1201.79, \"end\": 1201.93, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1201.93, \"end\": 1202.17, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 1202.17, \"end\": 1202.651, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1202.651, \"end\": 1202.871, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 1202.871, \"end\": 1202.891, \"score\": 0.953}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,470 --> 00:00:14,692\n委員質詢結束,我們處理臨時提案。主席,各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們薛部長?好,部長請。\n\n2\n00:00:19,096 --> 00:00:47,224\n委員好部長其實我還有那個蘇丹紅事件要跟你就教但是因為藥價的問題我跟我們新北市工會也稍微溝通了一下所以有幾個幾個簡單的問題也先再一次的這個反應我必須要說如果幾種藥品缺貨去換藥我覺得對市場或對用藥人來講這個影響這是無法避免的就沒有如果是幾種而已可是如果\n\n3\n00:00:48,584 --> 00:01:12,659\n在藥局看到的現象是缺藥而民眾退單的比例高達30%以上那它可能就不是這簡單的幾個問題所以變成換藥草的話那我們的確是要正視這個問題但你們一直講說是缺貨而不是缺藥或者是你們在談說三同等同的狀況就可以治療可是第一線的藥局的確發現\n\n4\n00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,001\n換藥時比如說這個血壓藥為例他們發現患者會反應說用以前的藥大概可以血壓控制還維持在110可是你換了藥以後他總是在怎麼控制都是180所以他只能夠回到大醫院裡面去這個領原廠藥或是原來的藥這個他們的確是觀察到這個現象\n\n5\n00:01:37,546 --> 00:01:58,048\n另外一種就是管制性的藥品那因為管制性藥品的用藥人他本身就是很敏感的那你換藥的時候他的確就更敏感有可能是這樣子那特別排斥所以的確我們也有一些藥廠過去做了很多不應該做的事比如說很多年以前我接發過的\n\n6\n00:01:59,770 --> 00:02:00,770\n所以我今天是希望說\n\n7\n00:02:24,818 --> 00:02:27,020\n因為社區藥局是我們分級醫療然後醫藥分業要專業化那我們也鼓勵加醫也鼓勵社區藥局\n\n8\n00:02:44,958 --> 00:02:59,542\n可是藥局面臨大很大的這個困難我們也是要想到比如說分配不均有藥的先分配大醫院他們就一定沒有嘛那再來他們都是跟盤商要的可是盤商因為這個很多種種因素他不供藥了或是最小出貨量你在藥廠裡面某些藥物是1000粒為一瓶的基本包裝他就沒用得多你怎麼所以這個都是可解決的啊\n\n9\n00:03:11,385 --> 00:03:12,146\n保定對不對\n\n10\n00:03:29,805 --> 00:03:44,620\n我們剛剛有提到的幾個我們都非常的贊同,比方說山桐的這一個學名要需要去做promote,讓民眾比較能夠接。花很多錢在宣導,但這種東西都沒看到你們的宣導。\n\n11\n00:03:46,635 --> 00:04:06,031\n這我們會持續而且會加強去做因為這個會關係到國內的一些命脈那第二個部分的話那剛剛委員有提到那這個藥物調度的問題比如說社區藥局他要調度跟盤商那這個部分的話因為新的制度我們剛剛才建立起來對盤商的一個監測\n\n12\n00:04:07,853 --> 00:04:24,191\n那幸好這個國內的大的盤商他們都願意來做配合所以這部分的話我們就可以來監測在社區藥局這邊如果是缺貨的時候我們到底是不是可以來請盤商來做調度那如果說中盤商沒有辦法調度的話那我們就找藥商\n\n13\n00:04:24,531 --> 00:04:39,750\n林淑芬先生不能調度的理由和原因很多啦所以你們也是要去了解合不合理嘛因為這個部分的話其實是他們最常講的一個理由是說現在進貨的藥價到未來賣的時候都賠本了我的意思是說這是其中一個\n\n14\n00:04:39,810 --> 00:04:41,131\n中央健康保險署\n\n15\n00:04:59,966 --> 00:05:11,949\n蘇丹紅事件很嚴重是因為你說你不能保證在架上的都是安全的沒有漏網之魚我現在看一下第8張這個產品而且這個海順公司的產品\n\n16\n00:05:19,022 --> 00:05:46,870\n然後你看他的下一頁香麻辣粉現在大家上Google到MOMO網站現在還在架上3月7號現在還在架上初一十五海順而你們知道嗎衛生局也知道海順署長他為什麼還在架上你們的所謂的檢出辣椒粉含蘇丹紅的專區裡面也沒有這種產品\n\n17\n00:05:48,955 --> 00:05:49,836\n我們什麼時候100%逐批查驗?\n\n18\n00:06:07,557 --> 00:06:29,284\n應該是去年的12月12月之後還有沒有人繼續禁含有蘇丹紅產品的這個辣椒粉應該不會有來馬上給你看就會被阻斷掉這個馬上給你看部長這你們自己說過的我這一份拿錯了你看他\n\n19\n00:06:31,610 --> 00:06:32,491\n編進受理時間1月6號今年的\n\n20\n00:06:39,308 --> 00:06:57,081\n我再問你去年12月11號已經百分之100的在查驗了為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉他進來後被查到就退了啊我不再講查到被退他當然沒有成我上禮拜就跟你說啊查到沒關係沒事也沒了結你就叫他退官退回去中共而已沒有啦那退就已經是了結了\n\n21\n00:07:07,008 --> 00:07:09,510\n沒有了我唸完再跟你說為什麼這間家館都所有這幾天都跟這個公司他百分之一百逐批查驗了他在1月6號\n\n22\n00:07:23,055 --> 00:07:31,202\n仍然在繼續進口,而且進口量有多高呢?據我所知,好像是1月6號的是13696公斤。好,來第二張。但不是1月6號,它被退了!如你們所說被退了!\n\n23\n00:07:44,725 --> 00:08:01,830\n1月30查出布爾葛被退要求他退他1月30之後仍然還繼續進1月28OK沒關係他在你們百分之一百去年12月11就發布百分之一百逐批查驗的時候他仍然進我都說錯了\n\n24\n00:08:04,411 --> 00:08:06,533\n林淑芬林淑芬林淑芬\n\n25\n00:08:33,632 --> 00:08:44,154\n她的出口商從中國出來給我們的是龍海銅製你不要以為這是中國廠商,這是他們自己因為台灣李彥廷也有登記一家龍海銅製他們自己,剛才那些中國人,你看中國登記的他1997年就成立了\n\n26\n00:08:56,630 --> 00:09:21,599\n他1997年就食品原料、食品加工然後為什麼他在溯源追蹤系統他會登記的是什麼KevinShipping因為他的裡面的真正的出口商是龍海同志你退關退回去也是他們自己的公司啦退回去他們中國也是他們自己的公司啦\n\n27\n00:09:23,493 --> 00:09:32,677\n所以你看這個葉哲,我們看他有幾家公司啊?沒錯,我剛才說的那個初一十五是哪一家公司?是海順我拜他就說他有四間啊,現在再加一個海順\n\n28\n00:09:40,908 --> 00:09:59,345\n事實上他不是啦,你看他多少?金鎮、釜山、廣元、龍海、節展、嘉廣、初一、十五、食品有限公司、素食業、輪線、頂紀、海順、國際我剛才講了這個龍海同紀,他台灣也有登記在這裡看看,整間,九間\n\n29\n00:10:08,615 --> 00:10:24,026\n已經出包了,你酒家有沒有全部都查?食藥署署長,你有沒有全部都查?我想這部分的話,對於個別的這些廠商,如果是有輸入這種違規的,我們就禁止進口沒有啦,保證我不是在說如果的問題啦\n\n30\n00:10:27,188 --> 00:10:46,049\n至少經戰加廣都已經爆發食安事件了至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多這個經營者他們至少有很多家的經營者有很多家的公司的時候\n\n31\n00:10:47,284 --> 00:10:49,026\n為什麼立委Google就有了?\n\n32\n00:11:07,079 --> 00:11:25,945\n你整個食藥署專業的人力咧一千多人欸那你只是負責你政策責付出去地方政府也有人力欸那今天在這裡我覺得行政部門有道德風險啊你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎你們有辦法查好查滿嗎你查好查滿會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大\n\n33\n00:11:34,828 --> 00:11:57,597\n當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候是不是就不能太認真所以不做不錯多做多錯我現在看到的就是這樣子啊我Google就可以知道他有9家公司你知道他還有1家那個工廠登記嗎來看一下工廠登記我我這個\n\n34\n00:12:00,210 --> 00:12:05,484\n來鐵皮屋工廠來我會講公司登記喔工廠登記你們有去查廠嗎?這個地方有去查過廠嗎?\n\n35\n00:12:08,308 --> 00:12:29,776\n因為所有要餐蘇丹紅都是辣椒要磨成粉以外是要加工餐入的加工過程才餐入的他現在有一種是邊境就餐入那還有加工廠這個我跟大家簡單問你這間工廠登記證他名字他是哪一家工廠工廠登記證嗎?名字叫什麼?FDA知道嗎?你不知道他有高經公司你也不知道\n\n36\n00:12:38,661 --> 00:12:56,089\n從委員的資料來看,我一看是用那個地址去查的,就通知的沒有啊,我們的公司登記毛,那個吳克銘三年也可以的啊我沒有辦法用這樣去查啦你為我不用去查捏,我只是google就有了捏\n\n37\n00:12:57,964 --> 00:13:16,612\nGoogle台灣公司網就有阿你Google一個加廣金站Google一個加廣他就告訴你加廣還有其他的這個分公司有沒有你Google這個加廣兩個字就全部找到連他的工廠登記都有我這就是工廠登記來的\n\n38\n00:13:17,552 --> 00:13:20,314\n林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司你會去查9家嗎?沒有我今天講初一15素食食品公司\n\n39\n00:13:47,550 --> 00:14:08,629\n3月7號現在某某網站上還有現在大家Google進去都還有3月他還有特價3月1號到3月7號想最低價格八三折好我現在要再講喔我我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外我們整個事件喔我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是因為\n\n40\n00:14:09,810 --> 00:14:29,444\n如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律,然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統,追蹤追溯系統,我們都這麼講,我們政府不斷跟大家講,你要來登錄,然後你要自律,如果你被我查到了,我要重罰。\n\n41\n00:14:31,314 --> 00:14:52,091\n今天查到了你也說重罰但是我現在問你業者查到要重罰但是如果政府被人民查到政府被立委查到你們就沒有在管要不要重罰因為現在上游的廠商登錄的是虛偽下游的廠商把青菜蝦蝦蝦沒多轉\n\n42\n00:14:54,269 --> 00:15:11,506\n你這樣,你根本就都沒在查,所以讓那個溯源追蹤追溯制度,淪於假的形式,讓我們食安五環破功。不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,\n\n43\n00:15:17,432 --> 00:15:19,154\n他在測試你政府的底線啊他在測試你政府可以容許會不會查嘛\n\n44\n00:15:34,474 --> 00:15:49,608\n然後你的下游,高雄市政府說他提供不出完整的下游名單,他也沒有嘛我現在再問你,在幾天拜議的時候,市屋署署長說,他們都有登錄,他們是登錄第23類\n\n45\n00:15:51,449 --> 00:16:05,557\n蘇長我現在更問你啦我們是7萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有一萬家這一萬家裡面是在25個品項裡面他到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登\n\n46\n00:16:08,713 --> 00:16:21,168\n因為25項大多數都是鎖定在3000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須啊我現在這樣問你,他是多一項啦,你告訴我他必須強登的規定是第幾個品項23萬\n\n47\n00:16:25,049 --> 00:16:30,272\n我現在要說的是你們的科長告訴我們燈仔不實他要登錄一個燈的原因是他是第24類不是23類\n\n48\n00:16:53,743 --> 00:17:12,018\n到底23還是24林科長說的跟林書長說的不一樣再來說以這種業者自律嚴重的被查到我要重罰那政府現在發現政府就沒在管啊這樣人民發現你嚴重的疏失沒在管要不要重罰事務官、公務員要懲處啊\n\n49\n00:17:16,874 --> 00:17:17,615\n所以由此可知啊,瀆職的很嚴重\n\n50\n00:17:42,079 --> 00:17:44,101\n我現在在說的是你們沒有在查\n\n51\n00:17:57,153 --> 00:18:00,796\n112年逐批拖延到100%了你可以不用查嗎?如果他過去的紀錄在邊境都查到還有蘇丹紅而且屢次的被發現你不用去食品雲查嗎?\n\n52\n00:18:22,831 --> 00:18:39,243\n你不用去食品雲茶嗎?如果他是累犯,如果是鋁鋁,如果他是這樣子,我現在講說這一群人喔這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做啊?你看,他根本就是...我只要跟你講,他在台灣也有工廠登記也說是高競,如果在中國也有,你如果他輸出\n\n53\n00:18:50,451 --> 00:18:59,473\n中國輸出廠商寫龍海同濟他如果去抓到禁止輸入這樣他這間就壞了就不好啊但是他都把你用凱文虛品所以你還敢說我禁止了21家中國廠商你禁止的是凱文虛品你禁止的不是吳彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同濟叫Eastrong\n\n54\n00:19:19,465 --> 00:19:44,406\n而且你們還有一個我搞不懂的你們的新聞稿專區裡面這21家被中國中國被禁的廠商名稱21家在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來沒有放21家的名稱而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方苦心的一直問的去查才查得到這21家所以我很懷疑的\n\n55\n00:19:45,547 --> 00:20:02,891\n您為什麼都不公布在您的新聞稿專區新聞稿專區沒有放上去過這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了好謝謝林委員的質詢那請這個衛福部要積極的去查緝剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料積極去查\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n470\t14692\t委員質詢結束,我們處理臨時提案。主席,各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們薛部長?好,部長請。\n19096\t47224\t委員好部長其實我還有那個蘇丹紅事件要跟你就教但是因為藥價的問題我跟我們新北市工會也稍微溝通了一下所以有幾個幾個簡單的問題也先再一次的這個反應我必須要說如果幾種藥品缺貨去換藥我覺得對市場或對用藥人來講這個影響這是無法避免的就沒有如果是幾種而已可是如果\n48584\t72659\t在藥局看到的現象是缺藥而民眾退單的比例高達30%以上那它可能就不是這簡單的幾個問題所以變成換藥草的話那我們的確是要正視這個問題但你們一直講說是缺貨而不是缺藥或者是你們在談說三同等同的狀況就可以治療可是第一線的藥局的確發現\n74360\t78001\t換藥時比如說這個血壓藥為例他們發現患者會反應說用以前的藥大概可以血壓控制還維持在110可是你換了藥以後他總是在怎麼控制都是180所以他只能夠回到大醫院裡面去這個領原廠藥或是原來的藥這個他們的確是觀察到這個現象\n97546\t118048\t另外一種就是管制性的藥品那因為管制性藥品的用藥人他本身就是很敏感的那你換藥的時候他的確就更敏感有可能是這樣子那特別排斥所以的確我們也有一些藥廠過去做了很多不應該做的事比如說很多年以前我接發過的\n119770\t120770\t所以我今天是希望說\n144818\t147020\t因為社區藥局是我們分級醫療然後醫藥分業要專業化那我們也鼓勵加醫也鼓勵社區藥局\n164958\t179542\t可是藥局面臨大很大的這個困難我們也是要想到比如說分配不均有藥的先分配大醫院他們就一定沒有嘛那再來他們都是跟盤商要的可是盤商因為這個很多種種因素他不供藥了或是最小出貨量你在藥廠裡面某些藥物是1000粒為一瓶的基本包裝他就沒用得多你怎麼所以這個都是可解決的啊\n191385\t192146\t保定對不對\n209805\t224620\t我們剛剛有提到的幾個我們都非常的贊同,比方說山桐的這一個學名要需要去做promote,讓民眾比較能夠接。花很多錢在宣導,但這種東西都沒看到你們的宣導。\n226635\t246031\t這我們會持續而且會加強去做因為這個會關係到國內的一些命脈那第二個部分的話那剛剛委員有提到那這個藥物調度的問題比如說社區藥局他要調度跟盤商那這個部分的話因為新的制度我們剛剛才建立起來對盤商的一個監測\n247853\t264191\t那幸好這個國內的大的盤商他們都願意來做配合所以這部分的話我們就可以來監測在社區藥局這邊如果是缺貨的時候我們到底是不是可以來請盤商來做調度那如果說中盤商沒有辦法調度的話那我們就找藥商\n264531\t279750\t林淑芬先生不能調度的理由和原因很多啦所以你們也是要去了解合不合理嘛因為這個部分的話其實是他們最常講的一個理由是說現在進貨的藥價到未來賣的時候都賠本了我的意思是說這是其中一個\n279810\t281131\t中央健康保險署\n299966\t311949\t蘇丹紅事件很嚴重是因為你說你不能保證在架上的都是安全的沒有漏網之魚我現在看一下第8張這個產品而且這個海順公司的產品\n319022\t346870\t然後你看他的下一頁香麻辣粉現在大家上Google到MOMO網站現在還在架上3月7號現在還在架上初一十五海順而你們知道嗎衛生局也知道海順署長他為什麼還在架上你們的所謂的檢出辣椒粉含蘇丹紅的專區裡面也沒有這種產品\n348955\t349836\t我們什麼時候100%逐批查驗?\n367557\t389284\t應該是去年的12月12月之後還有沒有人繼續禁含有蘇丹紅產品的這個辣椒粉應該不會有來馬上給你看就會被阻斷掉這個馬上給你看部長這你們自己說過的我這一份拿錯了你看他\n391610\t392491\t編進受理時間1月6號 今年的\n399308\t417081\t我再問你去年12月11號已經百分之100的在查驗了為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉他進來後被查到就退了啊我不再講查到被退他當然沒有成我上禮拜就跟你說啊查到沒關係沒事也沒了結你就叫他退官退回去中共而已沒有啦那退就已經是了結了\n427008\t429510\t沒有了我唸完再跟你說為什麼這間家館都所有這幾天都跟這個公司他百分之一百逐批查驗了他在1月6號\n443055\t451202\t仍然在繼續進口,而且進口量有多高呢?據我所知,好像是1月6號的是13696公斤。好,來第二張。但不是1月6號,它被退了!如你們所說被退了!\n464725\t481830\t1月30查出布爾葛被退要求他退他1月30之後仍然還繼續進1月28OK沒關係他在你們百分之一百去年12月11就發布百分之一百逐批查驗的時候他仍然進我都說錯了\n484411\t486533\t林淑芬 林淑芬 林淑芬\n513632\t524154\t她的出口商從中國出來給我們的是龍海銅製你不要以為這是中國廠商,這是他們自己因為台灣李彥廷也有登記一家龍海銅製他們自己,剛才那些中國人,你看中國登記的他1997年就成立了\n536630\t561599\t他1997年就食品原料、食品加工然後為什麼他在溯源追蹤系統他會登記的是什麼Kevin Shipping因為他的裡面的真正的出口商是龍海同志你退關退回去也是他們自己的公司啦退回去他們中國也是他們自己的公司啦\n563493\t572677\t所以你看這個葉哲,我們看他有幾家公司啊?沒錯,我剛才說的那個初一十五是哪一家公司?是海順我拜他就說他有四間啊,現在再加一個海順\n580908\t599345\t事實上他不是啦,你看他多少?金鎮、釜山、廣元、龍海、節展、嘉廣、初一、十五、食品有限公司、素食業、輪線、頂紀、海順、國際我剛才講了這個龍海同紀,他台灣也有登記在這裡看看,整間,九間\n608615\t624026\t已經出包了,你酒家有沒有全部都查?食藥署署長,你有沒有全部都查?我想這部分的話,對於個別的這些廠商,如果是有輸入這種違規的,我們就禁止進口沒有啦,保證我不是在說如果的問題啦\n627188\t646049\t至少經戰加廣都已經爆發食安事件了至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多這個經營者他們至少有很多家的經營者有很多家的公司的時候\n647284\t649026\t為什麼立委Google就有了?\n667079\t685945\t你整個食藥署專業的人力咧一千多人欸那你只是負責你政策責付出去地方政府也有人力欸那今天在這裡我覺得行政部門有道德風險啊你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎你們有辦法查好查滿嗎你查好查滿會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大\n694828\t717597\t當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候是不是就不能太認真所以不做不錯多做多錯我現在看到的就是這樣子啊我Google就可以知道他有9家公司你知道他還有1家那個工廠登記嗎來看一下工廠登記我我這個\n720210\t725484\t來 鐵皮屋工廠來我會講公司登記喔工廠登記你們有去查廠嗎?這個地方有去查過廠嗎?\n728308\t749776\t因為所有要餐蘇丹紅都是辣椒要磨成粉以外是要加工餐入的加工過程才餐入的他現在有一種是邊境就餐入那還有加工廠這個我跟大家簡單問你這間工廠登記證他名字他是哪一家工廠工廠登記證嗎?名字叫什麼?FDA知道嗎?你不知道他有高經公司你也不知道\n758661\t776089\t從委員的資料來看,我一看是用那個地址去查的,就通知的沒有啊,我們的公司登記毛,那個吳克銘三年也可以的啊我沒有辦法用這樣去查啦你為我不用去查捏,我只是google就有了捏\n777964\t796612\tGoogle台灣公司網就有阿你Google一個加廣金站Google一個加廣他就告訴你加廣還有其他的這個分公司有沒有你Google這個加廣兩個字就全部找到連他的工廠登記都有我這就是工廠登記來的\n797552\t800314\t林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司你會去查9家嗎?沒有我今天講初一15素食食品公司\n827550\t848629\t3月7號現在某某網站上還有現在大家Google進去都還有3月他還有特價3月1號到3月7號想最低價格八三折好我現在要再講喔我 我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外我們整個事件喔我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是因為\n849810\t869444\t如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律,然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統,追蹤追溯系統,我們都這麼講,我們政府不斷跟大家講,你要來登錄,然後你要自律,如果你被我查到了,我要重罰。\n871314\t892091\t今天查到了你也說重罰但是我現在問你業者查到要重罰但是如果政府被人民查到政府被立委查到你們就沒有在管要不要重罰因為現在上游的廠商登錄的是虛偽下游的廠商把青菜蝦蝦蝦沒多轉\n894269\t911506\t你這樣,你根本就都沒在查,所以讓那個溯源追蹤追溯制度,淪於假的形式,讓我們食安五環破功。不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,\n917432\t919154\t他在測試你政府的底線啊他在測試你政府可以容許會不會查嘛\n934474\t949608\t然後你的下游,高雄市政府說他提供不出完整的下游名單,他也沒有嘛我現在再問你,在幾天拜議的時候,市屋署署長說,他們都有登錄,他們是登錄第23類\n951449\t965557\t蘇長我現在更問你啦我們是7萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有一萬家這一萬家裡面是在25個品項裡面他到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登\n968713\t981168\t因為25項大多數都是鎖定在3000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須啊我現在這樣問你,他是多一項啦,你告訴我他必須強登的規定是第幾個品項23萬\n985049\t990272\t我現在要說的是你們的科長告訴我們燈仔不實他要登錄一個燈的原因是他是第24類不是23類\n1013743\t1032018\t到底23還是24 林科長說的跟林書長說的不一樣再來說以這種業者自律嚴重的被查到我要重罰那政府現在發現政府就沒在管啊這樣人民發現你嚴重的疏失沒在管要不要重罰事務官、公務員要懲處啊\n1036874\t1037615\t所以由此可知啊,瀆職的很嚴重\n1062079\t1064101\t我現在在說的是你們沒有在查\n1077153\t1080796\t112年逐批拖延到100%了你可以不用查嗎?如果他過去的紀錄在邊境都查到還有蘇丹紅而且屢次的被發現你不用去食品雲查嗎?\n1102831\t1119243\t你不用去食品雲茶嗎?如果他是累犯,如果是鋁鋁,如果他是這樣子,我現在講說這一群人喔這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做啊?你看,他根本就是...我只要跟你講,他在台灣也有工廠登記也說是高競,如果在中國也有,你如果他輸出\n1130451\t1139473\t中國輸出廠商寫龍海同濟他如果去抓到禁止輸入這樣他這間就壞了就不好啊但是他都把你用凱文虛品所以你還敢說我禁止了21家中國廠商你禁止的是凱文虛品你禁止的不是吳彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同濟叫Eastrong\n1159465\t1184406\t而且你們還有一個我搞不懂的你們的新聞稿專區裡面這21家被中國中國被禁的廠商名稱21家在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來沒有放21家的名稱而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方苦心的一直問的去查才查得到這21家所以我很懷疑的\n1185547\t1202891\t您為什麼都不公布在您的新聞稿專區新聞稿專區沒有放上去過這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了好謝謝林委員的質詢那請這個衛福部要積極的去查緝剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料積極去查\n","txt":"委員質詢結束,我們處理臨時提案。主席,各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們薛部長?好,部長請。\n委員好部長其實我還有那個蘇丹紅事件要跟你就教但是因為藥價的問題我跟我們新北市工會也稍微溝通了一下所以有幾個幾個簡單的問題也先再一次的這個反應我必須要說如果幾種藥品缺貨去換藥我覺得對市場或對用藥人來講這個影響這是無法避免的就沒有如果是幾種而已可是如果\n在藥局看到的現象是缺藥而民眾退單的比例高達30%以上那它可能就不是這簡單的幾個問題所以變成換藥草的話那我們的確是要正視這個問題但你們一直講說是缺貨而不是缺藥或者是你們在談說三同等同的狀況就可以治療可是第一線的藥局的確發現\n換藥時比如說這個血壓藥為例他們發現患者會反應說用以前的藥大概可以血壓控制還維持在110可是你換了藥以後他總是在怎麼控制都是180所以他只能夠回到大醫院裡面去這個領原廠藥或是原來的藥這個他們的確是觀察到這個現象\n另外一種就是管制性的藥品那因為管制性藥品的用藥人他本身就是很敏感的那你換藥的時候他的確就更敏感有可能是這樣子那特別排斥所以的確我們也有一些藥廠過去做了很多不應該做的事比如說很多年以前我接發過的\n所以我今天是希望說\n因為社區藥局是我們分級醫療然後醫藥分業要專業化那我們也鼓勵加醫也鼓勵社區藥局\n可是藥局面臨大很大的這個困難我們也是要想到比如說分配不均有藥的先分配大醫院他們就一定沒有嘛那再來他們都是跟盤商要的可是盤商因為這個很多種種因素他不供藥了或是最小出貨量你在藥廠裡面某些藥物是1000粒為一瓶的基本包裝他就沒用得多你怎麼所以這個都是可解決的啊\n保定對不對\n我們剛剛有提到的幾個我們都非常的贊同,比方說山桐的這一個學名要需要去做promote,讓民眾比較能夠接。花很多錢在宣導,但這種東西都沒看到你們的宣導。\n這我們會持續而且會加強去做因為這個會關係到國內的一些命脈那第二個部分的話那剛剛委員有提到那這個藥物調度的問題比如說社區藥局他要調度跟盤商那這個部分的話因為新的制度我們剛剛才建立起來對盤商的一個監測\n那幸好這個國內的大的盤商他們都願意來做配合所以這部分的話我們就可以來監測在社區藥局這邊如果是缺貨的時候我們到底是不是可以來請盤商來做調度那如果說中盤商沒有辦法調度的話那我們就找藥商\n林淑芬先生不能調度的理由和原因很多啦所以你們也是要去了解合不合理嘛因為這個部分的話其實是他們最常講的一個理由是說現在進貨的藥價到未來賣的時候都賠本了我的意思是說這是其中一個\n中央健康保險署\n蘇丹紅事件很嚴重是因為你說你不能保證在架上的都是安全的沒有漏網之魚我現在看一下第8張這個產品而且這個海順公司的產品\n然後你看他的下一頁香麻辣粉現在大家上Google到MOMO網站現在還在架上3月7號現在還在架上初一十五海順而你們知道嗎衛生局也知道海順署長他為什麼還在架上你們的所謂的檢出辣椒粉含蘇丹紅的專區裡面也沒有這種產品\n我們什麼時候100%逐批查驗?\n應該是去年的12月12月之後還有沒有人繼續禁含有蘇丹紅產品的這個辣椒粉應該不會有來馬上給你看就會被阻斷掉這個馬上給你看部長這你們自己說過的我這一份拿錯了你看他\n編進受理時間1月6號 今年的\n我再問你去年12月11號已經百分之100的在查驗了為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉他進來後被查到就退了啊我不再講查到被退他當然沒有成我上禮拜就跟你說啊查到沒關係沒事也沒了結你就叫他退官退回去中共而已沒有啦那退就已經是了結了\n沒有了我唸完再跟你說為什麼這間家館都所有這幾天都跟這個公司他百分之一百逐批查驗了他在1月6號\n仍然在繼續進口,而且進口量有多高呢?據我所知,好像是1月6號的是13696公斤。好,來第二張。但不是1月6號,它被退了!如你們所說被退了!\n1月30查出布爾葛被退要求他退他1月30之後仍然還繼續進1月28OK沒關係他在你們百分之一百去年12月11就發布百分之一百逐批查驗的時候他仍然進我都說錯了\n林淑芬 林淑芬 林淑芬\n她的出口商從中國出來給我們的是龍海銅製你不要以為這是中國廠商,這是他們自己因為台灣李彥廷也有登記一家龍海銅製他們自己,剛才那些中國人,你看中國登記的他1997年就成立了\n他1997年就食品原料、食品加工然後為什麼他在溯源追蹤系統他會登記的是什麼Kevin Shipping因為他的裡面的真正的出口商是龍海同志你退關退回去也是他們自己的公司啦退回去他們中國也是他們自己的公司啦\n所以你看這個葉哲,我們看他有幾家公司啊?沒錯,我剛才說的那個初一十五是哪一家公司?是海順我拜他就說他有四間啊,現在再加一個海順\n事實上他不是啦,你看他多少?金鎮、釜山、廣元、龍海、節展、嘉廣、初一、十五、食品有限公司、素食業、輪線、頂紀、海順、國際我剛才講了這個龍海同紀,他台灣也有登記在這裡看看,整間,九間\n已經出包了,你酒家有沒有全部都查?食藥署署長,你有沒有全部都查?我想這部分的話,對於個別的這些廠商,如果是有輸入這種違規的,我們就禁止進口沒有啦,保證我不是在說如果的問題啦\n至少經戰加廣都已經爆發食安事件了至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多這個經營者他們至少有很多家的經營者有很多家的公司的時候\n為什麼立委Google就有了?\n你整個食藥署專業的人力咧一千多人欸那你只是負責你政策責付出去地方政府也有人力欸那今天在這裡我覺得行政部門有道德風險啊你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎你們有辦法查好查滿嗎你查好查滿會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大\n當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候是不是就不能太認真所以不做不錯多做多錯我現在看到的就是這樣子啊我Google就可以知道他有9家公司你知道他還有1家那個工廠登記嗎來看一下工廠登記我我這個\n來 鐵皮屋工廠來我會講公司登記喔工廠登記你們有去查廠嗎?這個地方有去查過廠嗎?\n因為所有要餐蘇丹紅都是辣椒要磨成粉以外是要加工餐入的加工過程才餐入的他現在有一種是邊境就餐入那還有加工廠這個我跟大家簡單問你這間工廠登記證他名字他是哪一家工廠工廠登記證嗎?名字叫什麼?FDA知道嗎?你不知道他有高經公司你也不知道\n從委員的資料來看,我一看是用那個地址去查的,就通知的沒有啊,我們的公司登記毛,那個吳克銘三年也可以的啊我沒有辦法用這樣去查啦你為我不用去查捏,我只是google就有了捏\nGoogle台灣公司網就有阿你Google一個加廣金站Google一個加廣他就告訴你加廣還有其他的這個分公司有沒有你Google這個加廣兩個字就全部找到連他的工廠登記都有我這就是工廠登記來的\n林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司你會去查9家嗎?沒有我今天講初一15素食食品公司\n3月7號現在某某網站上還有現在大家Google進去都還有3月他還有特價3月1號到3月7號想最低價格八三折好我現在要再講喔我 我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外我們整個事件喔我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是因為\n如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律,然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統,追蹤追溯系統,我們都這麼講,我們政府不斷跟大家講,你要來登錄,然後你要自律,如果你被我查到了,我要重罰。\n今天查到了你也說重罰但是我現在問你業者查到要重罰但是如果政府被人民查到政府被立委查到你們就沒有在管要不要重罰因為現在上游的廠商登錄的是虛偽下游的廠商把青菜蝦蝦蝦沒多轉\n你這樣,你根本就都沒在查,所以讓那個溯源追蹤追溯制度,淪於假的形式,讓我們食安五環破功。不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,\n他在測試你政府的底線啊他在測試你政府可以容許會不會查嘛\n然後你的下游,高雄市政府說他提供不出完整的下游名單,他也沒有嘛我現在再問你,在幾天拜議的時候,市屋署署長說,他們都有登錄,他們是登錄第23類\n蘇長我現在更問你啦我們是7萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有一萬家這一萬家裡面是在25個品項裡面他到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登\n因為25項大多數都是鎖定在3000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須啊我現在這樣問你,他是多一項啦,你告訴我他必須強登的規定是第幾個品項23萬\n我現在要說的是你們的科長告訴我們燈仔不實他要登錄一個燈的原因是他是第24類不是23類\n到底23還是24 林科長說的跟林書長說的不一樣再來說以這種業者自律嚴重的被查到我要重罰那政府現在發現政府就沒在管啊這樣人民發現你嚴重的疏失沒在管要不要重罰事務官、公務員要懲處啊\n所以由此可知啊,瀆職的很嚴重\n我現在在說的是你們沒有在查\n112年逐批拖延到100%了你可以不用查嗎?如果他過去的紀錄在邊境都查到還有蘇丹紅而且屢次的被發現你不用去食品雲查嗎?\n你不用去食品雲茶嗎?如果他是累犯,如果是鋁鋁,如果他是這樣子,我現在講說這一群人喔這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做啊?你看,他根本就是...我只要跟你講,他在台灣也有工廠登記也說是高競,如果在中國也有,你如果他輸出\n中國輸出廠商寫龍海同濟他如果去抓到禁止輸入這樣他這間就壞了就不好啊但是他都把你用凱文虛品所以你還敢說我禁止了21家中國廠商你禁止的是凱文虛品你禁止的不是吳彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同濟叫Eastrong\n而且你們還有一個我搞不懂的你們的新聞稿專區裡面這21家被中國中國被禁的廠商名稱21家在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來沒有放21家的名稱而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方苦心的一直問的去查才查得到這21家所以我很懷疑的\n您為什麼都不公布在您的新聞稿專區新聞稿專區沒有放上去過這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了好謝謝林委員的質詢那請這個衛福部要積極的去查緝剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料積極去查\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.470 --> 00:14.692\n委員質詢結束,我們處理臨時提案。主席,各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們薛部長?好,部長請。\n\n00:19.096 --> 00:47.224\n委員好部長其實我還有那個蘇丹紅事件要跟你就教但是因為藥價的問題我跟我們新北市工會也稍微溝通了一下所以有幾個幾個簡單的問題也先再一次的這個反應我必須要說如果幾種藥品缺貨去換藥我覺得對市場或對用藥人來講這個影響這是無法避免的就沒有如果是幾種而已可是如果\n\n00:48.584 --> 01:12.659\n在藥局看到的現象是缺藥而民眾退單的比例高達30%以上那它可能就不是這簡單的幾個問題所以變成換藥草的話那我們的確是要正視這個問題但你們一直講說是缺貨而不是缺藥或者是你們在談說三同等同的狀況就可以治療可是第一線的藥局的確發現\n\n01:14.360 --> 01:18.001\n換藥時比如說這個血壓藥為例他們發現患者會反應說用以前的藥大概可以血壓控制還維持在110可是你換了藥以後他總是在怎麼控制都是180所以他只能夠回到大醫院裡面去這個領原廠藥或是原來的藥這個他們的確是觀察到這個現象\n\n01:37.546 --> 01:58.048\n另外一種就是管制性的藥品那因為管制性藥品的用藥人他本身就是很敏感的那你換藥的時候他的確就更敏感有可能是這樣子那特別排斥所以的確我們也有一些藥廠過去做了很多不應該做的事比如說很多年以前我接發過的\n\n01:59.770 --> 02:00.770\n所以我今天是希望說\n\n02:24.818 --> 02:27.020\n因為社區藥局是我們分級醫療然後醫藥分業要專業化那我們也鼓勵加醫也鼓勵社區藥局\n\n02:44.958 --> 02:59.542\n可是藥局面臨大很大的這個困難我們也是要想到比如說分配不均有藥的先分配大醫院他們就一定沒有嘛那再來他們都是跟盤商要的可是盤商因為這個很多種種因素他不供藥了或是最小出貨量你在藥廠裡面某些藥物是1000粒為一瓶的基本包裝他就沒用得多你怎麼所以這個都是可解決的啊\n\n03:11.385 --> 03:12.146\n保定對不對\n\n03:29.805 --> 03:44.620\n我們剛剛有提到的幾個我們都非常的贊同,比方說山桐的這一個學名要需要去做promote,讓民眾比較能夠接。花很多錢在宣導,但這種東西都沒看到你們的宣導。\n\n03:46.635 --> 04:06.031\n這我們會持續而且會加強去做因為這個會關係到國內的一些命脈那第二個部分的話那剛剛委員有提到那這個藥物調度的問題比如說社區藥局他要調度跟盤商那這個部分的話因為新的制度我們剛剛才建立起來對盤商的一個監測\n\n04:07.853 --> 04:24.191\n那幸好這個國內的大的盤商他們都願意來做配合所以這部分的話我們就可以來監測在社區藥局這邊如果是缺貨的時候我們到底是不是可以來請盤商來做調度那如果說中盤商沒有辦法調度的話那我們就找藥商\n\n04:24.531 --> 04:39.750\n林淑芬先生不能調度的理由和原因很多啦所以你們也是要去了解合不合理嘛因為這個部分的話其實是他們最常講的一個理由是說現在進貨的藥價到未來賣的時候都賠本了我的意思是說這是其中一個\n\n04:39.810 --> 04:41.131\n中央健康保險署\n\n04:59.966 --> 05:11.949\n蘇丹紅事件很嚴重是因為你說你不能保證在架上的都是安全的沒有漏網之魚我現在看一下第8張這個產品而且這個海順公司的產品\n\n05:19.022 --> 05:46.870\n然後你看他的下一頁香麻辣粉現在大家上Google到MOMO網站現在還在架上3月7號現在還在架上初一十五海順而你們知道嗎衛生局也知道海順署長他為什麼還在架上你們的所謂的檢出辣椒粉含蘇丹紅的專區裡面也沒有這種產品\n\n05:48.955 --> 05:49.836\n我們什麼時候100%逐批查驗?\n\n06:07.557 --> 06:29.284\n應該是去年的12月12月之後還有沒有人繼續禁含有蘇丹紅產品的這個辣椒粉應該不會有來馬上給你看就會被阻斷掉這個馬上給你看部長這你們自己說過的我這一份拿錯了你看他\n\n06:31.610 --> 06:32.491\n編進受理時間1月6號今年的\n\n06:39.308 --> 06:57.081\n我再問你去年12月11號已經百分之100的在查驗了為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉他進來後被查到就退了啊我不再講查到被退他當然沒有成我上禮拜就跟你說啊查到沒關係沒事也沒了結你就叫他退官退回去中共而已沒有啦那退就已經是了結了\n\n07:07.008 --> 07:09.510\n沒有了我唸完再跟你說為什麼這間家館都所有這幾天都跟這個公司他百分之一百逐批查驗了他在1月6號\n\n07:23.055 --> 07:31.202\n仍然在繼續進口,而且進口量有多高呢?據我所知,好像是1月6號的是13696公斤。好,來第二張。但不是1月6號,它被退了!如你們所說被退了!\n\n07:44.725 --> 08:01.830\n1月30查出布爾葛被退要求他退他1月30之後仍然還繼續進1月28OK沒關係他在你們百分之一百去年12月11就發布百分之一百逐批查驗的時候他仍然進我都說錯了\n\n08:04.411 --> 08:06.533\n林淑芬林淑芬林淑芬\n\n08:33.632 --> 08:44.154\n她的出口商從中國出來給我們的是龍海銅製你不要以為這是中國廠商,這是他們自己因為台灣李彥廷也有登記一家龍海銅製他們自己,剛才那些中國人,你看中國登記的他1997年就成立了\n\n08:56.630 --> 09:21.599\n他1997年就食品原料、食品加工然後為什麼他在溯源追蹤系統他會登記的是什麼KevinShipping因為他的裡面的真正的出口商是龍海同志你退關退回去也是他們自己的公司啦退回去他們中國也是他們自己的公司啦\n\n09:23.493 --> 09:32.677\n所以你看這個葉哲,我們看他有幾家公司啊?沒錯,我剛才說的那個初一十五是哪一家公司?是海順我拜他就說他有四間啊,現在再加一個海順\n\n09:40.908 --> 09:59.345\n事實上他不是啦,你看他多少?金鎮、釜山、廣元、龍海、節展、嘉廣、初一、十五、食品有限公司、素食業、輪線、頂紀、海順、國際我剛才講了這個龍海同紀,他台灣也有登記在這裡看看,整間,九間\n\n10:08.615 --> 10:24.026\n已經出包了,你酒家有沒有全部都查?食藥署署長,你有沒有全部都查?我想這部分的話,對於個別的這些廠商,如果是有輸入這種違規的,我們就禁止進口沒有啦,保證我不是在說如果的問題啦\n\n10:27.188 --> 10:46.049\n至少經戰加廣都已經爆發食安事件了至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多這個經營者他們至少有很多家的經營者有很多家的公司的時候\n\n10:47.284 --> 10:49.026\n為什麼立委Google就有了?\n\n11:07.079 --> 11:25.945\n你整個食藥署專業的人力咧一千多人欸那你只是負責你政策責付出去地方政府也有人力欸那今天在這裡我覺得行政部門有道德風險啊你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎你們有辦法查好查滿嗎你查好查滿會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大\n\n11:34.828 --> 11:57.597\n當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候是不是就不能太認真所以不做不錯多做多錯我現在看到的就是這樣子啊我Google就可以知道他有9家公司你知道他還有1家那個工廠登記嗎來看一下工廠登記我我這個\n\n12:00.210 --> 12:05.484\n來鐵皮屋工廠來我會講公司登記喔工廠登記你們有去查廠嗎?這個地方有去查過廠嗎?\n\n12:08.308 --> 12:29.776\n因為所有要餐蘇丹紅都是辣椒要磨成粉以外是要加工餐入的加工過程才餐入的他現在有一種是邊境就餐入那還有加工廠這個我跟大家簡單問你這間工廠登記證他名字他是哪一家工廠工廠登記證嗎?名字叫什麼?FDA知道嗎?你不知道他有高經公司你也不知道\n\n12:38.661 --> 12:56.089\n從委員的資料來看,我一看是用那個地址去查的,就通知的沒有啊,我們的公司登記毛,那個吳克銘三年也可以的啊我沒有辦法用這樣去查啦你為我不用去查捏,我只是google就有了捏\n\n12:57.964 --> 13:16.612\nGoogle台灣公司網就有阿你Google一個加廣金站Google一個加廣他就告訴你加廣還有其他的這個分公司有沒有你Google這個加廣兩個字就全部找到連他的工廠登記都有我這就是工廠登記來的\n\n13:17.552 --> 13:20.314\n林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司你會去查9家嗎?沒有我今天講初一15素食食品公司\n\n13:47.550 --> 14:08.629\n3月7號現在某某網站上還有現在大家Google進去都還有3月他還有特價3月1號到3月7號想最低價格八三折好我現在要再講喔我我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外我們整個事件喔我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是因為\n\n14:09.810 --> 14:29.444\n如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律,然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統,追蹤追溯系統,我們都這麼講,我們政府不斷跟大家講,你要來登錄,然後你要自律,如果你被我查到了,我要重罰。\n\n14:31.314 --> 14:52.091\n今天查到了你也說重罰但是我現在問你業者查到要重罰但是如果政府被人民查到政府被立委查到你們就沒有在管要不要重罰因為現在上游的廠商登錄的是虛偽下游的廠商把青菜蝦蝦蝦沒多轉\n\n14:54.269 --> 15:11.506\n你這樣,你根本就都沒在查,所以讓那個溯源追蹤追溯制度,淪於假的形式,讓我們食安五環破功。不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,\n\n15:17.432 --> 15:19.154\n他在測試你政府的底線啊他在測試你政府可以容許會不會查嘛\n\n15:34.474 --> 15:49.608\n然後你的下游,高雄市政府說他提供不出完整的下游名單,他也沒有嘛我現在再問你,在幾天拜議的時候,市屋署署長說,他們都有登錄,他們是登錄第23類\n\n15:51.449 --> 16:05.557\n蘇長我現在更問你啦我們是7萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有一萬家這一萬家裡面是在25個品項裡面他到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登\n\n16:08.713 --> 16:21.168\n因為25項大多數都是鎖定在3000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須啊我現在這樣問你,他是多一項啦,你告訴我他必須強登的規定是第幾個品項23萬\n\n16:25.049 --> 16:30.272\n我現在要說的是你們的科長告訴我們燈仔不實他要登錄一個燈的原因是他是第24類不是23類\n\n16:53.743 --> 17:12.018\n到底23還是24林科長說的跟林書長說的不一樣再來說以這種業者自律嚴重的被查到我要重罰那政府現在發現政府就沒在管啊這樣人民發現你嚴重的疏失沒在管要不要重罰事務官、公務員要懲處啊\n\n17:16.874 --> 17:17.615\n所以由此可知啊,瀆職的很嚴重\n\n17:42.079 --> 17:44.101\n我現在在說的是你們沒有在查\n\n17:57.153 --> 18:00.796\n112年逐批拖延到100%了你可以不用查嗎?如果他過去的紀錄在邊境都查到還有蘇丹紅而且屢次的被發現你不用去食品雲查嗎?\n\n18:22.831 --> 18:39.243\n你不用去食品雲茶嗎?如果他是累犯,如果是鋁鋁,如果他是這樣子,我現在講說這一群人喔這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做啊?你看,他根本就是...我只要跟你講,他在台灣也有工廠登記也說是高競,如果在中國也有,你如果他輸出\n\n18:50.451 --> 18:59.473\n中國輸出廠商寫龍海同濟他如果去抓到禁止輸入這樣他這間就壞了就不好啊但是他都把你用凱文虛品所以你還敢說我禁止了21家中國廠商你禁止的是凱文虛品你禁止的不是吳彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同濟叫Eastrong\n\n19:19.465 --> 19:44.406\n而且你們還有一個我搞不懂的你們的新聞稿專區裡面這21家被中國中國被禁的廠商名稱21家在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來沒有放21家的名稱而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方苦心的一直問的去查才查得到這21家所以我很懷疑的\n\n19:45.547 --> 20:02.891\n您為什麼都不公布在您的新聞稿專區新聞稿專區沒有放上去過這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了好謝謝林委員的質詢那請這個衛福部要積極的去查緝剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料積極去查\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.47,"end":14.692,"text":"委員質詢結束,我們處理臨時提案。主席,各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們薛部長?好,部長請。"},{"start":19.096,"end":47.224,"text":"委員好部長其實我還有那個蘇丹紅事件要跟你就教但是因為藥價的問題我跟我們新北市工會也稍微溝通了一下所以有幾個幾個簡單的問題也先再一次的這個反應我必須要說如果幾種藥品缺貨去換藥我覺得對市場或對用藥人來講這個影響這是無法避免的就沒有如果是幾種而已可是如果"},{"start":48.584,"end":72.659,"text":"在藥局看到的現象是缺藥而民眾退單的比例高達30%以上那它可能就不是這簡單的幾個問題所以變成換藥草的話那我們的確是要正視這個問題但你們一直講說是缺貨而不是缺藥或者是你們在談說三同等同的狀況就可以治療可是第一線的藥局的確發現"},{"start":74.36,"end":78.001,"text":"換藥時比如說這個血壓藥為例他們發現患者會反應說用以前的藥大概可以血壓控制還維持在110可是你換了藥以後他總是在怎麼控制都是180所以他只能夠回到大醫院裡面去這個領原廠藥或是原來的藥這個他們的確是觀察到這個現象"},{"start":97.546,"end":118.048,"text":"另外一種就是管制性的藥品那因為管制性藥品的用藥人他本身就是很敏感的那你換藥的時候他的確就更敏感有可能是這樣子那特別排斥所以的確我們也有一些藥廠過去做了很多不應該做的事比如說很多年以前我接發過的"},{"start":119.77,"end":120.77,"text":"所以我今天是希望說"},{"start":144.818,"end":147.02,"text":"因為社區藥局是我們分級醫療然後醫藥分業要專業化那我們也鼓勵加醫也鼓勵社區藥局"},{"start":164.958,"end":179.542,"text":"可是藥局面臨大很大的這個困難我們也是要想到比如說分配不均有藥的先分配大醫院他們就一定沒有嘛那再來他們都是跟盤商要的可是盤商因為這個很多種種因素他不供藥了或是最小出貨量你在藥廠裡面某些藥物是1000粒為一瓶的基本包裝他就沒用得多你怎麼所以這個都是可解決的啊"},{"start":191.385,"end":192.146,"text":"保定對不對"},{"start":209.805,"end":224.62,"text":"我們剛剛有提到的幾個我們都非常的贊同,比方說山桐的這一個學名要需要去做promote,讓民眾比較能夠接。花很多錢在宣導,但這種東西都沒看到你們的宣導。"},{"start":226.635,"end":246.031,"text":"這我們會持續而且會加強去做因為這個會關係到國內的一些命脈那第二個部分的話那剛剛委員有提到那這個藥物調度的問題比如說社區藥局他要調度跟盤商那這個部分的話因為新的制度我們剛剛才建立起來對盤商的一個監測"},{"start":247.853,"end":264.191,"text":"那幸好這個國內的大的盤商他們都願意來做配合所以這部分的話我們就可以來監測在社區藥局這邊如果是缺貨的時候我們到底是不是可以來請盤商來做調度那如果說中盤商沒有辦法調度的話那我們就找藥商"},{"start":264.531,"end":279.75,"text":"林淑芬先生不能調度的理由和原因很多啦所以你們也是要去了解合不合理嘛因為這個部分的話其實是他們最常講的一個理由是說現在進貨的藥價到未來賣的時候都賠本了我的意思是說這是其中一個"},{"start":279.81,"end":281.131,"text":"中央健康保險署"},{"start":299.966,"end":311.949,"text":"蘇丹紅事件很嚴重是因為你說你不能保證在架上的都是安全的沒有漏網之魚我現在看一下第8張這個產品而且這個海順公司的產品"},{"start":319.022,"end":346.87,"text":"然後你看他的下一頁香麻辣粉現在大家上Google到MOMO網站現在還在架上3月7號現在還在架上初一十五海順而你們知道嗎衛生局也知道海順署長他為什麼還在架上你們的所謂的檢出辣椒粉含蘇丹紅的專區裡面也沒有這種產品"},{"start":348.955,"end":349.836,"text":"我們什麼時候100%逐批查驗?"},{"start":367.557,"end":389.284,"text":"應該是去年的12月12月之後還有沒有人繼續禁含有蘇丹紅產品的這個辣椒粉應該不會有來馬上給你看就會被阻斷掉這個馬上給你看部長這你們自己說過的我這一份拿錯了你看他"},{"start":391.61,"end":392.491,"text":"編進受理時間1月6號 今年的"},{"start":399.308,"end":417.081,"text":"我再問你去年12月11號已經百分之100的在查驗了為什麼這些廠商仍然有恃無恐繼續進口大量含蘇丹紅的辣椒粉他進來後被查到就退了啊我不再講查到被退他當然沒有成我上禮拜就跟你說啊查到沒關係沒事也沒了結你就叫他退官退回去中共而已沒有啦那退就已經是了結了"},{"start":427.008,"end":429.51,"text":"沒有了我唸完再跟你說為什麼這間家館都所有這幾天都跟這個公司他百分之一百逐批查驗了他在1月6號"},{"start":443.055,"end":451.202,"text":"仍然在繼續進口,而且進口量有多高呢?據我所知,好像是1月6號的是13696公斤。好,來第二張。但不是1月6號,它被退了!如你們所說被退了!"},{"start":464.725,"end":481.83,"text":"1月30查出布爾葛被退要求他退他1月30之後仍然還繼續進1月28OK沒關係他在你們百分之一百去年12月11就發布百分之一百逐批查驗的時候他仍然進我都說錯了"},{"start":484.411,"end":486.533,"text":"林淑芬 林淑芬 林淑芬"},{"start":513.632,"end":524.154,"text":"她的出口商從中國出來給我們的是龍海銅製你不要以為這是中國廠商,這是他們自己因為台灣李彥廷也有登記一家龍海銅製他們自己,剛才那些中國人,你看中國登記的他1997年就成立了"},{"start":536.63,"end":561.599,"text":"他1997年就食品原料、食品加工然後為什麼他在溯源追蹤系統他會登記的是什麼Kevin Shipping因為他的裡面的真正的出口商是龍海同志你退關退回去也是他們自己的公司啦退回去他們中國也是他們自己的公司啦"},{"start":563.493,"end":572.677,"text":"所以你看這個葉哲,我們看他有幾家公司啊?沒錯,我剛才說的那個初一十五是哪一家公司?是海順我拜他就說他有四間啊,現在再加一個海順"},{"start":580.908,"end":599.345,"text":"事實上他不是啦,你看他多少?金鎮、釜山、廣元、龍海、節展、嘉廣、初一、十五、食品有限公司、素食業、輪線、頂紀、海順、國際我剛才講了這個龍海同紀,他台灣也有登記在這裡看看,整間,九間"},{"start":608.615,"end":624.026,"text":"已經出包了,你酒家有沒有全部都查?食藥署署長,你有沒有全部都查?我想這部分的話,對於個別的這些廠商,如果是有輸入這種違規的,我們就禁止進口沒有啦,保證我不是在說如果的問題啦"},{"start":627.188,"end":646.049,"text":"至少經戰加廣都已經爆發食安事件了至少我禮拜一都已經跟你們說過他們的人頭公司很多這個經營者他們至少有很多家的經營者有很多家的公司的時候"},{"start":647.284,"end":649.026,"text":"為什麼立委Google就有了?"},{"start":667.079,"end":685.945,"text":"你整個食藥署專業的人力咧一千多人欸那你只是負責你政策責付出去地方政府也有人力欸那今天在這裡我覺得行政部門有道德風險啊你們食藥署的人有一種道德風險是什麼你知道嗎你們有辦法查好查滿嗎你查好查滿會不會像滾雪球一樣越滾越大"},{"start":694.828,"end":717.597,"text":"當你們為了避免越滾越大的時候是不是就不能太認真所以不做不錯多做多錯我現在看到的就是這樣子啊我Google就可以知道他有9家公司你知道他還有1家那個工廠登記嗎來看一下工廠登記我我這個"},{"start":720.21,"end":725.484,"text":"來 鐵皮屋工廠來我會講公司登記喔工廠登記你們有去查廠嗎?這個地方有去查過廠嗎?"},{"start":728.308,"end":749.776,"text":"因為所有要餐蘇丹紅都是辣椒要磨成粉以外是要加工餐入的加工過程才餐入的他現在有一種是邊境就餐入那還有加工廠這個我跟大家簡單問你這間工廠登記證他名字他是哪一家工廠工廠登記證嗎?名字叫什麼?FDA知道嗎?你不知道他有高經公司你也不知道"},{"start":758.661,"end":776.089,"text":"從委員的資料來看,我一看是用那個地址去查的,就通知的沒有啊,我們的公司登記毛,那個吳克銘三年也可以的啊我沒有辦法用這樣去查啦你為我不用去查捏,我只是google就有了捏"},{"start":777.964,"end":796.612,"text":"Google台灣公司網就有阿你Google一個加廣金站Google一個加廣他就告訴你加廣還有其他的這個分公司有沒有你Google這個加廣兩個字就全部找到連他的工廠登記都有我這就是工廠登記來的"},{"start":797.552,"end":800.314,"text":"林淑芬今天沒有講這9家公司你會去查9家嗎?沒有我今天講初一15素食食品公司"},{"start":827.55,"end":848.629,"text":"3月7號現在某某網站上還有現在大家Google進去都還有3月他還有特價3月1號到3月7號想最低價格八三折好我現在要再講喔我 我覺得你們這個東西很離譜以外我們整個事件喔我覺得查到最後非常可惡的是因為"},{"start":849.81,"end":869.444,"text":"如果我們整個食品安全的管理是仰賴業者自律,然後當初我們建置一個食品溯源系統,追蹤追溯系統,我們都這麼講,我們政府不斷跟大家講,你要來登錄,然後你要自律,如果你被我查到了,我要重罰。"},{"start":871.314,"end":892.091,"text":"今天查到了你也說重罰但是我現在問你業者查到要重罰但是如果政府被人民查到政府被立委查到你們就沒有在管要不要重罰因為現在上游的廠商登錄的是虛偽下游的廠商把青菜蝦蝦蝦沒多轉"},{"start":894.269,"end":911.506,"text":"你這樣,你根本就都沒在查,所以讓那個溯源追蹤追溯制度,淪於假的形式,讓我們食安五環破功。不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,不能這樣講,"},{"start":917.432,"end":919.154,"text":"他在測試你政府的底線啊他在測試你政府可以容許會不會查嘛"},{"start":934.474,"end":949.608,"text":"然後你的下游,高雄市政府說他提供不出完整的下游名單,他也沒有嘛我現在再問你,在幾天拜議的時候,市屋署署長說,他們都有登錄,他們是登錄第23類"},{"start":951.449,"end":965.557,"text":"蘇長我現在更問你啦我們是7萬家的公司需要強制登錄的只有一萬家這一萬家裡面是在25個品項裡面他到底是基於哪一個品項所以必須要強登"},{"start":968.713,"end":981.168,"text":"因為25項大多數都是鎖定在3000萬以上的食品公司、食品工廠才必須啊我現在這樣問你,他是多一項啦,你告訴我他必須強登的規定是第幾個品項23萬"},{"start":985.049,"end":990.272,"text":"我現在要說的是你們的科長告訴我們燈仔不實他要登錄一個燈的原因是他是第24類不是23類"},{"start":1013.743,"end":1032.018,"text":"到底23還是24 林科長說的跟林書長說的不一樣再來說以這種業者自律嚴重的被查到我要重罰那政府現在發現政府就沒在管啊這樣人民發現你嚴重的疏失沒在管要不要重罰事務官、公務員要懲處啊"},{"start":1036.874,"end":1037.615,"text":"所以由此可知啊,瀆職的很嚴重"},{"start":1062.079,"end":1064.101,"text":"我現在在說的是你們沒有在查"},{"start":1077.153,"end":1080.796,"text":"112年逐批拖延到100%了你可以不用查嗎?如果他過去的紀錄在邊境都查到還有蘇丹紅而且屢次的被發現你不用去食品雲查嗎?"},{"start":1102.831,"end":1119.243,"text":"你不用去食品雲茶嗎?如果他是累犯,如果是鋁鋁,如果他是這樣子,我現在講說這一群人喔這一群人是不是故意的、組織性的在做啊?你看,他根本就是...我只要跟你講,他在台灣也有工廠登記也說是高競,如果在中國也有,你如果他輸出"},{"start":1130.451,"end":1139.473,"text":"中國輸出廠商寫龍海同濟他如果去抓到禁止輸入這樣他這間就壞了就不好啊但是他都把你用凱文虛品所以你還敢說我禁止了21家中國廠商你禁止的是凱文虛品你禁止的不是吳彥廷、吳克敏他們的龍海同濟叫Eastrong"},{"start":1159.465,"end":1184.406,"text":"而且你們還有一個我搞不懂的你們的新聞稿專區裡面這21家被中國中國被禁的廠商名稱21家在你們的新聞稿裡面沒有放上來沒有放21家的名稱而是隱藏在一個大家都看不到的地方苦心的一直問的去查才查得到這21家所以我很懷疑的"},{"start":1185.547,"end":1202.891,"text":"您為什麼都不公布在您的新聞稿專區新聞稿專區沒有放上去過這是不是有貓膩我們就不得而知了好謝謝林委員的質詢那請這個衛福部要積極的去查緝剛剛委員提供這麼多的資料積極去查"}]}}}}