{"id":149606,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703ccdbaba0d964752cefd230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a657c9e36ddc0b84515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"15:17:21 - 15:47:57","影片長度":"00:30:36","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":1836,"end_time":"2024-03-08T15:47:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T15:17:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":359,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（15時17分）謝謝韓院長，也謝謝韓院長送的花，也祝福在座的女閣員婦女節快樂。是不是有請我們陳院長？"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員午安，恭喜你當選立委，還有祝你婦女節快樂。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝院長。院長，因為今天是婦女節，剛剛林淑芬委員也有說，他作為一個媽媽，他很關心的是食安問題。我現在擔任衛環委員會的召委，我也很關心食安的問題，事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件召開了專案的檢討會議。我要問一下院長，你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少？你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉的最大進口商是哪一家？"],["陳院長建仁：保欣。"],["王委員育敏：保欣嘛！你認為它是初犯還是累犯？"],["陳院長建仁：保欣以前好像曾經也輸入過一些不合格的辣椒粉。"],["王委員育敏：本席現在就要揭發，這個保欣是累犯，也是慣犯，它產生的問題是什麼呢？有一家跟它登記在同一個地址的公司叫做珮鈞有限公司，這兩家通通登記在同一個地址，而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼？珮鈞在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出它進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號，當時驗出來的是4號，所以這一家珮鈞已經有案例在先。另外，在2019年10月它的黑胡椒原粒也是有不得驗出的農藥，所以這一家珮鈞有案在先，然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私蒜頭，也被抓到了，法院其實有判緩刑。所以你可以看到這一次的保欣和珮鈞，他們其實有共同的關係，都在同一家，我要求你們要再去查。剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族、同一個企業登記在同一個地址，而現在看到的保欣和珮鈞又是在同一個地址，而且他們是之前就已經有不良紀錄了，這個部分，院長你們有掌握嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席要求立刻去清查。而從當中我看到了一個問題，就是這一次含有蘇丹紅的辣椒粉進到臺灣來，為什麼這次的風暴這麼嚴重？是因為我們在前端缺乏了預警。你看2018年就有這樣一個事件，而我要問的是，當時2018年發現後，經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步地去監控它後續進口的食品有沒有問題？既然在法院有這樣一個紀錄，有沒有回饋給食藥署、有沒有到衛福部來？我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣一個食安風暴，是因為我們自己沒有預警的措施，如果當時針對發生事件的珮鈞和保欣就已經有所警覺，把他們列為高風險、列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話，我覺得不會放任他們今天坐大，變成是全國最大的辣椒粉進口商，而且進口的量這麼大，一直到去年12月整個攔下來，百分之百逐批，才真的攔下來，但是院長知道嗎？根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的，現在是往前推半年而已，光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品，這樣的不合格率將近三成，而你知道去年一整年我們從中國大陸進口了多少辣椒粉嗎？超過200萬公斤啊！高達212萬公斤。如果你用這樣一個不合格比率推算回去的話，這個數字很驚人，可能有疑慮的辣椒粉會超過60萬公斤，而它現在已經在我們的市場上面。食藥署花了這麼大的人力，到目前為止一個月了，查到多少？才查到12萬公斤。這個問題真的是非常的嚴重！所以院長，你認為怎麼樣可以有效、更快速的讓這樣的風暴落幕，儘快的把這些未爆彈再找出來？到目前為止，食藥署今天早上開記者會時有說，他們覺得還有未爆彈，他們的推估是正確的，如果以現在找出來的不合格率是這麼高的話，去年上半年進來的這些，裡面很多都是漏網之魚。院長，怎麼辦？要怎麼處理？"],["陳院長建仁：對於這個已經發生的事情，當然要繼續認真地去追查；至於未來，其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來精進的計畫，任何廠商只要被檢驗出有大家關切的不合格化學藥品的時候，除了逐批檢查以外，也要馬上禁止它進口。但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個住址的公司，未來在盤點的過程當中，應該把所有同一個住址的公司的所有進口產品要更完整的來做逐批的檢查。我想這一件事情，對於這些違法進口的廠商，我們真的要加強監控，不再只是監控它進口的產品，而是要整個，因為它會轉來轉去、輪來輪去，這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進、加強的地方，謝謝委員提供這寶貴的意見。"],["王委員育敏：好，院長，我要點出一個問題就是，你們現在有一件事情是行政院應該做而沒有做好的，從蘇丹紅事件爆發到現在，風暴已經超過一個月了，但是到目前為止，是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組，每週盯進度、每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度？以我剛剛講的例子，今天食藥署發現的任何事情，如果你有一個跨部會的小組，法務部就應該動起來啊！法務部就應該要立刻去追查！剛剛林淑芬委員還提到這個事件，是我們在衛環委員會裡面開會，他揭發出來的，但是法務部什麼時候才查？什麼時候才動起來？法務部是今天吧？是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：不，是之前。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員報告一下，相關的地檢署早就已經分案在偵查，而且還聲請法院羈押獲准，有押了兩個人，包括新北地檢署、雲林地檢署，還有高雄地檢署，有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下，都全部動起來了。"],["王委員育敏：我問的是什麼時候才動起來？"],["蔡部長清祥：很早就動起來，所以才有聲押獲准，還有交保。"],["王委員育敏：高雄是什麼時候？"],["蔡部長清祥：高雄比較晚。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：但是最早雲林，還有新北……"],["王委員育敏：你們是立法委員揭發之後才跟進嘛！我今天要講的是，爆發這麼大規模的食安危機，為什麼到現在行政院竟然還沒有組成跨部會的指揮小組？是不是現在立刻組組起來？可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關食安的問題。這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現，確實是不法廠商有很嚴密的違法情況，中央會成立一個小組來統籌。"],["王委員育敏：院長，我要求你立刻成立一個小組，而這個層級不能太低，至少是由副院長……"],["陳院長建仁：或者秘書長。"],["王委員育敏：我想副院長也很有能力，可以來指揮各部會把這個案子儘速查清。我剛剛講過，從這個數字可知還有很多在市面上流竄，所以要在最快的時間之內落幕就必須要強而有力的指揮，讓各部會真正動起來，這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決，不是靠立法委員舉報一個、你們辦一個，舉報一個、辦一個……"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["王委員育敏：這樣就叫做被動跟消極。我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來，蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕；如果沒有這樣做，再查1個月還是查不完，為什麼？因為這個數字真的很龐大！"],["陳院長建仁：行政院會組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝院長承諾你們來組這樣的小組。我接下來就要問各部會了，食安會報裡面大家都是有責任的，但是到目前為止我看到衛福部部長最辛苦，還戴著口罩，在委員會裡面所有的事情好像都他們一肩挑，然後整個就是食藥署來做。但是這件事情太龐雜了，以下我要就教幾位部長們，在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼？我先請教教育部部長，這件事情涉及到學童營養午餐的問題，結果我們發現第一時間爆出來之後，教育部都沒有聲音，也都沒有在管學童的營養午餐，然後是各縣市政府教育局或者教育處自己先跳出來，說為了學童的安全，所以他們來禁止，是教育局跟教育處先跳出來，而且到昨天如果不是本席在委員會要部長趕快行文給教育部，要求全國採一致的標準，你還是讓他們各行其是。昨天第一時間就發現有些縣市說：「哎呀！我們的縣市都沒有問題產品，所以可以不用禁止。」顯見很多縣市沒有跟進、誤判，結果後來發現不對，為什麼食藥署繼續公布了？於是急轉彎，一急轉彎就說：「不只學校要禁，長照機構也要禁，相關的醫療機構也要禁。」目前為止，我看到的是，每一個縣市禁止的品項跟單位都是不一致的。教育部部長為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做？在這件事情也太消極了吧！學童的食安你不用把關嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：因為衛福部食藥署當時有將檢查出不合格的這些項次公布在食藥署的專區裡面，這部分教育部也透過食材平臺讓學校能夠隨時注意到到底哪些品項要處理。雖然當時並沒有到這麼全面，是希望學校在開菜單的時候，一定要留意已經公布為違規的這些廠商所使用的食材，這是在第一階段……"],["王委員育敏：那你們就是慢半拍啊！為什麼地方政府跑得比你們快？昨天第一時間就十幾個縣市政府宣布了，為什麼？因為他們看到衛福部說市場上還有未爆彈，他們也不敢保證，那你們速度為什麼這麼慢呢？那我就問你，本席昨天在社環委員會提出臨時提案，要求要全國一致，昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了，你今天批了沒？有沒有要求全國要一致？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為昨天衛福部薛部長有提到可能查緝的時間還要將近1個月，這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。"],["王委員育敏：你有第一時間發函？"],["潘部長文忠：是，昨天就發了。"],["王委員育敏：我希望教育部守護學童的食安要動起來，不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面，中央級的部長不可以這樣子，你應該是要做一個定調跟領導，而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。另外我再問你，在品項部分，你現在要禁哪些品項？現在每個縣市都還不一樣，有的禁辣椒粉，有的禁辣椒粉跟……"],["薛部長瑞元：咖哩粉。"],["王委員育敏：跟咖哩粉。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，在項次部分就針對這兩大項，即辣椒粉跟咖哩粉，我們在昨天的公文裡就是這兩項。"],["王委員育敏：同意這兩項？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["王委員育敏：現在有的縣市還跑出來白胡椒粉，因為昨天也發現污染，那到底要怎麼做？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個項次的部分，我們還是要跟衛福部這邊做個確認。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求你去研議，不要整個臺灣變成是多制，然後大家的步調不一。其實食安應該是一致的標準，這是一個重大食安事件，我要求教育部要這樣做。好，你請回。","請問法務部部長，你說你們主動偵辦了，那剛剛本席講的這一個，你要去查嗎？同一個地址，另外那家廠商，要去查嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：他如果有涉及犯罪，檢察官一定會主動來查。"],["王委員育敏：他之前已經涉及了，你認為有可疑，也應該主動去偵辦啊！你們偵辦不可以太被動，不能靠立法委員辦案吧！"],["蔡部長清祥：不會，我們都會跟地方的食品檢驗局相關人員保持密切聯繫，我們有一個聯繫平臺，隨時都可以保持資料的交流……"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望這件事情法務部要有主動性，而且要硬起來，針對這一些甚至敢去竄改報告的廠商，絕對是要重罰，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我要請經濟部。經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠，這一次爆發這麼大的事件，請問經濟部部長，在這一次食安風暴當中，你做了什麼？"],["王部長美花：因為這一次是進口的問題，不是國內，國內的部分，目前是沒有發現有任何問題。至於進口商是不是要自主檢查等等，衛福部食藥署這邊有請進口商要去檢驗等等作為。在過往，如果有發生這個問題，比如說通路商好了，通路商這邊，衛福部如果需要通路商的配合，我們經濟部會協助去跟通路商，包括超商、超市等等……"],["王委員育敏：我希望經濟部要積極一點，到昨天委員會討論的時候，還有一些購物平臺，就是他們自己跟上游買來再加工的這些業者，他自己也成立網購平臺，他們的商品還繼續在賣，並沒有下架，如果所有事情通通要由衛福部一個單位來承擔，這個事件會辦得非常緩慢，這些業者本來就是歸經濟部管，你們可以去要求啊！我覺得這個部分經濟部也沒有動起來，你們應該主動協助衛福部，而不是被動的等著說：你有什麼需要跟我講，我再來協助。昨天在這個委員會就有委員要求要去查這些廠商，結果我們部長說他不是經濟部，如果每一個子公司都要去查的話，他就變成是經濟部了，那就代表經濟部作為主管機關，你們也要動起來，這部分部長是不是可以承諾，趕快加進來這個查驗的行列？"],["王部長美花：需要我們協助的，我們一定會來做。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個，2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件，部長長期都在經濟部，我相信你應該知道，當時的毒澱粉事件，為了儘快讓消費者可以安心，讓他們知道哪一些品項廠商有自主去驗，然後他的產品是沒有問題的，當時就做了一件事情，就是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的，不管是珍珠奶茶、肉圓，一個是自己要去要求上游供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉沒有問題，然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有順丁烯二酸的澱粉，這個的好處是什麼？一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛！就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的。另外一個就是讓他把這個壓力往上，你要供應原料給我，你要出具一個安全的證明啊！如果我們有這樣的層層把關，那我們食安的漏洞就可以補起來。當時那個措施後來就是有止血，因為它還加上了行政手段，就是你今天貼出自清之後，就要代表說你這個是沒有問題的，而且後端市場繼續查，就是還是持續抽驗，如果抽驗到你貼公告，但你這個產品還是有問題，那就開罰。這就是一個更快速的引進經濟部這邊的力量，然後讓這整個風暴可以儘快的度過。因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸，又不可能完全叫大家不使用辣椒的產品，市面上那麼多的麻辣鍋、加辣的產品，你不可能要求廠商都不要使用，但在這段風暴當中，如果你要使用，那你就要告訴消費者說你的是安全的，而且真的是檢驗安全的，可以去做嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這我們已經開始動起來了、已經在做了，我們除了藉由這一個所謂非登不可的系統，告訴這些廠商之外，接下來下一步我們會找相關的公協會，再度去重申自主檢驗的必要性。"],["王委員育敏：我問一下院長，你贊不贊成本席今天所建議的這一個措施一定也要同步去做？因為現在整個查緝是由上而下，發現到哪裡查到哪裡，那我們現在是可以由下而上。"],["陳院長建仁：bottom up。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["陳院長建仁：我是覺得top down及bottom up這兩個都是必要的，未來才能夠很完整的進行這整個問題的查驗，還有確保它的安全性，才能夠更有效果。"],["王委員育敏：所以院長你也贊成嘛！那我就要求你今天所承諾的這一個專案小組要好好去督導，而且要落實，因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件，我覺得讓很多的家長不安心，國人也不安心，現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的，而現在最新的是不只紅色的東西，白胡椒粉、青辣椒粉他也加，真的是已經沒有辦法分辨了，本來是以為有加紅辣椒或者是咖哩的避一下，結果如果連白胡椒現在也發現有人還這樣子惡意添加的話，那會讓大家很擔心。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話，我們會再確認。"],["王委員育敏：還要再確認是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：那就儘快確認，讓國人的擔心……"],["陳院長建仁：有，正在進行了。"],["薛部長瑞元：今天已經在抽……"],["王委員育敏：正在進行當中？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望這個食安風暴可以儘快落幕，這一些惡意的業者就應該要予以重懲。","接下來本席要關心的是再生能源和環境永續的問題，我們可以看到，經濟部希望再生能源的發電量目標比是20%嘛！部長。"],["王部長美花：就是到2025年，原則上是2026年的時候達到20%。"],["王委員育敏：又再延一年啦！好，但是你現在是9.9對不對？"],["王部長美花：9.5，去年底的時候。"],["王委員育敏：那你的光電呢？你的光電現在缺口是多少？"],["王部長美花：光電目前是超過12 GW。"],["王委員育敏：所以你還缺多少？你的目標是20 GW嘛！"],["王部長美花：對，還有8 GW要追。"],["王委員育敏：那我這邊還低估了，如果我這邊低估了，我現在講2.15 GW，大概是還要再210座大巨蛋這麼大的面積，如果是8 GW的話，那還要再乘以三倍，那可能是超過500座大巨蛋這麼大的面積。現在我就要讓院長來看一下，本席不反對太陽能光電，但是如果你們光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續，那這個就叫做本末倒置。","我們來看一下現在出現的這一些亂象：第一個，我們原本漁電共生，其實是以農業為主，但結果我們現在的漁電共生、魚塭種電，我們現在漁電共生公告的面積占比，占養殖面積通通都是七、八成了，這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎？院長，你有看到這個問題嗎？如果是以養殖為主，結果你們現在公告出來的面積都是將近七、八成，這樣還養得成嗎？而且過去還發生文蛤暴斃，根本也沒有辦法。我過去在地方政府服務的時候，也發現他們反映現在養殖的漁獲越來越少，這是不是因為我們魚塭種電，然後有些農民、漁民可能就沒有要做了？因為這個價格比較好，所以讓那個量產也下降，連虱目魚都變貴了，院長，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["王部長美花：應該不是委員講的這樣……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王部長美花：所以委員講八成，這個分母指的是什麼？我再跟委員釐清。但是譬如說在嘉義、臺南的漁電共生其實從去年開始有收穫之後，收穫的情形非常好，我也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電共生。而且有太陽光電之後，它其實可以防寒或者汰熱，所以反而養殖的生存率比過往的露天要好。現在嘉義的部分，其實好的案場一個、一個在出來。"],["陳院長建仁：我們農業部在這邊也有同樣的……"],["王委員育敏：好，來，部長，你說。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，第一個就是我們漁電共生的部分分為兩個，一個是屋頂型的，一個是露天型的。屋頂型的就誠如剛才經濟部部長講的，它裡面特別是有一些白蝦它的產量甚至於會比較高。另外，陸地型的部分，基本上它的漁電光電板都是在岸邊去做，然後部分的遮蔭會讓魚本身更好，所以整個產量基本上是維持的。"],["王委員育敏：好，所以你們的說法就是都沒有問題……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們還是……"],["王委員育敏：那是公民團體的誤解了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我要跟委員說明，在剛開始的第1年的時候可能漁民本身在養殖的時候沒有做調整，現在這些養殖的調整技術已經到位了以後，包括您剛才講的虱目魚本身那個產量，那是因為溫度的關係，不是因為漁電共生的關係，這個部分我想我們都有相關的資訊。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席要求你們提供具體的數據……"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["王委員育敏：因為你們的說法跟這些長期關心的公民團體他們的看法其實落差非常地大。"],["王部長美花：我跟委員報告，其實我們最近有邀請公民團體來瞭解，他們看了以後也看到現在正面的價值有出來，而且好好養的話，確實對當地的農民……"],["陳院長建仁：有幫助。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是有幫助的。"],["王部長美花：就業也好、收穫也好是有幫助的。"],["王委員育敏：好，那你們就提供具體的數字給本席。另外一個，砍樹種電，這個過去其實有很多團體關心，本席是看了覺得非常地心痛，就是說，以我們現在追求環境永續，樹木對我們人類非常地重要，但是我們現在為了追求光電的鋪設率，不惜砍樹種電，這是對的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["王委員育敏：院長，你作為一個有高度的院長，又是科學家，你認為我們臺灣應該是要這樣子去發展嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有砍樹種電，但是對一些林相不好的、地力不佳的土地，我們才會用來作為光電發電的場地。"],["王委員育敏：林相不好跟地力不佳如何定義？有一個很嚴謹的定義嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來跟委員說明一下。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，現在目前平地造林大概是一萬三千多公頃，這一萬三千多公頃大概分為3類：第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的，這個部分我們絕對不會去動它，反而會去加碼維護生態；第二個部分是它的林相是可以繼續成材的，20年可能那個樹木還不夠大，如果它繼續再10年的時候，我們也會給他獎勵；第三個才是林相不佳的部分，林相不佳的部分未來會恢復農業生產之用。所以到目前為止我們針對主要林相的部分，我們都不會去動它，只有少部分是針對土壤本身，因為它林相不佳就是土壤本身的地力是不好的，地力不好牽涉到比較沿海這些比較高鹽分的地方，高鹽分的部分我們都有它的標準，所以我們……"],["王委員育敏：那本席秀出來這一張圖，這個是林相不佳嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個要去看實際的情形，我猜很多之前台糖的地因為當時WTO的關係，那個地不好，然後去種林，又沒有好好種，那個樹木其實都長不大，所以那些地也沒有辦法做很好的利用。"],["王委員育敏：院長，我想要提出來的就是我們不能本末倒置……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我完全同意。"],["王委員育敏：我說過我沒有反對光電，綠能也很好，但是如果你是因為達不到原來設定的目標……"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦。"],["王委員育敏：而因此毀棄了一些原則，然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞，這個我反對。接下來，你再看一張，我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片，這是我到嘉義看到的情況，請問院長，站在光電板上面的這個是什麼？你看得出來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：應該是鳥類吧！"],["王委員育敏：對，我們如果發展到如此這般的程度，要去鳥類的棲地，我們還要布滿了光電板，本來牠可以自由自在在那邊，牠可以抓魚、牠可以棲息，但是為了追求我們的光電整個目標，所以湖上面可以鋪設這些光電板，不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類，這就是我看到的一個荒謬的現象，這個真的應該繼續存在嗎？在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源，而我們人類卻用這樣的方式去破壞了牠原來的棲地，這樣真的是合理、是正常的情況嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這一張照片我是沒有看過，但是在其他的案例當中，我們反而看到實際上當我們開始在做光電相關發展的時候，有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多，所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看，我需要瞭解……"],["王委員育敏：這個也是……"],["王部長美花：我跟委員報告，我有去看過很多案場，它會有這麼多鳥其實是旁邊也有棲地，有的時候就會飛到光電板上面，所以有的人說……"],["王委員育敏：那是牠原來的棲地……"],["王部長美花：沒有，原來的棲地還在……"],["王委員育敏：部長，容我糾正你，那個就是牠原來的棲地……"],["王部長美花：是，但是因為旁邊還有棲地。"],["王委員育敏：是因為我們不夠要去開發，所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過，連這樣一個原來很漂亮的湖，我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板。本席最後時間有限，我只是要提醒院長，就是我們環境的永續跟綠能的發展應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡，如果有一些的面向，我們已經去侵襲到原來鳥類的棲地，有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而進行砍伐，這必須要有一個糾正的機制，要有一個監督的機制，而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色，大家都爭著在鋪設光電板，沒有人喊煞車，沒有人出來糾正，所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來，未來對這一些環評的部分，有一些是大面積的，應該要讓環境部來擔任這樣的角色。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們農業部一定會去堅持我們農業，我們有生態檢核的機制……"],["王委員育敏：好，不能破壞生態，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["主席：謝謝王委員育敏的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第53位張委員宏陸質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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\"end\": 798.187, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"校\", \"start\": 798.187, \"end\": 798.207, \"score\": 0.04}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 798.831, \"end\": 799.871, \"text\": \"你有第一時間發函嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 798.831, \"end\": 798.931, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 798.931, \"end\": 799.071, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 799.071, \"end\": 799.171, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 799.171, \"end\": 799.371, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"函\", \"start\": 799.371, \"end\": 799.871, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 799.871, \"end\": 823.54, \"text\": \"是,昨天就發了。我希望這個教育部,你們守護學童的時寒,要動起來,不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面了。那中央級的部長不可以這樣子啊。你應該是要做一個定調跟領導,而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。那另外一個我問你,你現在品項部分,你要進哪些品項?現在每一個縣市都還不一樣。有的進,\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 799.871, \"end\": 800.151, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"昨\", 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\"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 1142.058, \"end\": 1143.139, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1143.139, \"end\": 1143.659, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1143.659, \"end\": 1143.859, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1143.859, \"end\": 1144.019, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1144.019, \"end\": 1144.139, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 1144.139, \"end\": 1144.26, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1144.26, \"end\": 1144.68, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 1144.68, \"end\": 1145.36, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 1145.36, \"end\": 1146.361, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1146.361, \"end\": 1146.661, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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0.952}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1263.288, \"end\": 1263.848, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 1263.848, \"end\": 1263.968, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1263.968, \"end\": 1264.108, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 1264.108, \"end\": 1264.248, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1264.248, \"end\": 1264.409, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1264.409, \"end\": 1264.609, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1264.609, \"end\": 1265.829, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1265.829, \"end\": 1266.07, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1266.07, \"end\": 1266.25, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1266.25, \"end\": 1266.57, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1266.57, \"end\": 1266.75, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1266.75, \"end\": 1267.651, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1267.651, \"end\": 1268.991, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 1268.991, \"end\": 1277.157, \"text\": \"9.5。去年底的時候。 那你的光電呢?你的光電你現在缺口是多少?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1268.991, \"end\": 1270.733, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1270.733, \"end\": 1271.033, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 1271.033, \"end\": 1271.153, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1271.153, \"end\": 1271.473, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1271.473, \"end\": 1272.414, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1272.414, \"end\": 1272.674, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1272.674, \"end\": 1272.894, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1272.894, \"end\": 1273.294, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 1273.294, \"end\": 1273.775, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 1273.775, \"end\": 1274.235, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1274.235, \"end\": 1274.375, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1274.375, \"end\": 1274.555, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 1274.555, \"end\": 1274.935, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1274.935, \"end\": 1275.035, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1275.035, \"end\": 1275.255, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"缺\", \"start\": 1275.255, \"end\": 1275.476, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 1275.476, \"end\": 1275.656, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1275.656, \"end\": 1275.776, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1275.776, \"end\": 1275.956, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1275.956, \"end\": 1277.157, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 1277.157, \"end\": 1279.338, \"text\": \"光電目前是超過12GB。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 1277.157, \"end\": 1278.137, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1278.137, \"end\": 1278.337, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1278.337, \"end\": 1278.618, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1278.618, \"end\": 1279.138, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 1279.138, \"end\": 1279.238, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"G\", \"start\": 1279.238, \"end\": 1279.318, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"B\", \"start\": 1279.318, \"end\": 1279.338, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 1281.783, \"end\": 1284.826, \"text\": \"所以你還缺多少?你目標是20GW吧?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1281.783, \"end\": 1281.843, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1281.843, \"end\": 1281.903, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1281.903, \"end\": 1282.143, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"缺\", \"start\": 1282.143, \"end\": 1282.324, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1282.324, \"end\": 1282.484, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1282.484, \"end\": 1282.684, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1282.684, \"end\": 1282.764, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1282.764, \"end\": 1283.104, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1283.104, \"end\": 1283.245, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"G\", \"start\": 1283.245, \"end\": 1283.605, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"W\", \"start\": 1283.605, \"end\": 1284.005, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 1284.005, \"end\": 1284.826, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 1284.826, \"end\": 1295.597, \"text\": \"20對,還有8個GIGA要追,是。那我這邊還低估了,如果我這邊低估了,我現在講2.15GW,大概是還要在210座大巨蛋,這麼大。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1284.826, \"end\": 1285.106, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"G\", \"start\": 1285.106, \"end\": 1285.327, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 1285.327, \"end\": 1285.467, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"G\", \"start\": 1285.467, \"end\": 1285.627, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 1285.627, \"end\": 1285.967, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1285.967, \"end\": 1286.228, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 1286.228, \"end\": 1286.728, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1286.728, \"end\": 1287.169, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1287.169, \"end\": 1287.289, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1287.289, \"end\": 1287.849, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 1287.849, \"end\": 1288.05, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 1288.05, \"end\": 1288.23, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1288.23, \"end\": 1288.83, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1288.83, \"end\": 1289.111, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 1289.111, \"end\": 1289.331, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1289.331, \"end\": 1289.711, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 1289.711, \"end\": 1289.911, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 1289.911, \"end\": 1290.112, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1290.112, \"end\": 1290.372, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1290.372, \"end\": 1290.712, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1290.712, \"end\": 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所以到目前為止我們只針對主要的這些林項的部分我們都不會去動他。 那只有少部分是針對土壤本身因為他林項不佳就是他土壤本身的地利是不好的。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1581.01, \"end\": 1581.15, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 1581.15, \"end\": 1581.19, \"score\": 0.465}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1581.19, \"end\": 1581.83, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1581.83, \"end\": 1582.23, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1582.23, \"end\": 1582.37, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1582.37, \"end\": 1582.49, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1582.49, \"end\": 1582.671, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1582.671, \"end\": 1582.911, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1582.911, \"end\": 1583.331, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1583.331, \"end\": 1584.251, \"score\": 0.948}, 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{\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 1598.035, \"end\": 1598.155, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1598.155, \"end\": 1598.355, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1598.355, \"end\": 1598.595, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1598.595, \"end\": 1598.735, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1598.735, \"end\": 1598.955, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1598.955, \"end\": 1599.736, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 1599.736, \"end\": 1599.936, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"壤\", \"start\": 1599.936, \"end\": 1600.156, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 1600.156, \"end\": 1600.296, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 1600.296, \"end\": 1600.396, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1600.396, \"end\": 1600.596, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1600.596, \"end\": 1600.756, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"林\", 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{\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1632.791, \"end\": 1633.351, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1633.351, \"end\": 1633.491, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1633.491, \"end\": 1633.611, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1633.611, \"end\": 1634.132, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1634.132, \"end\": 1634.372, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1634.372, \"end\": 1634.532, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1634.532, \"end\": 1634.712, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1634.712, \"end\": 1635.093, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1635.093, \"end\": 1635.373, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1635.373, \"end\": 1635.553, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1635.553, \"end\": 1635.693, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1635.693, \"end\": 1635.954, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1635.954, \"end\": 1636.114, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1636.114, \"end\": 1636.294, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1636.294, \"end\": 1636.394, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1636.394, \"end\": 1636.494, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1636.494, \"end\": 1636.814, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 1636.814, \"end\": 1637.015, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 1637.015, \"end\": 1637.035, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 1637.495, \"end\": 1665.509, \"text\": \"院長我想要提出來就是我們不能本末倒置我說過我沒有反對光電綠能也很好但是如果你是因為達不到你原來設定的目標而因此毀棄了一些的原則然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞這個我反對接下來再看一張我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片這是我到嘉義看到的情況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1637.495, \"end\": 1638.536, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1638.536, \"end\": 1639.116, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 1639.116, \"end\": 1639.356, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1639.356, 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{\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1736.891, \"end\": 1737.572, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1737.572, \"end\": 1737.732, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 1737.732, \"end\": 1737.912, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1737.912, \"end\": 1738.252, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"棲\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1738.252, \"end\": 1738.853, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 1738.853, \"end\": 1739.053, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 1739.053, \"end\": 1739.673, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"鳥\"}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 1739.673, \"end\": 1739.953, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 1739.953, \"end\": 1740.154, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1740.154, \"end\": 1740.974, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1740.974, \"end\": 1741.154, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1741.154, \"end\": 1741.374, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1741.374, \"end\": 1741.715, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1741.715, \"end\": 1742.035, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1742.035, \"end\": 1742.295, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1742.295, \"end\": 1742.715, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1742.715, \"end\": 1742.855, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1742.855, \"end\": 1742.975, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 1742.975, \"end\": 1743.155, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"片\", \"start\": 1743.155, \"end\": 1743.516, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 1743.516, \"end\": 1743.536, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 1744.496, \"end\": 1757.362, \"text\": \"我需要瞭解說這個也是我跟委員報告我有去看過很多案場吼那他會鳥這麼多其實他是旁邊也有棲地那有的時候就會飛到光電板上面那所以有的人說他原來的棲地部長有我糾正你\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1744.496, \"end\": 1744.756, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 1755.521, \"end\": 1755.762, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1755.762, \"end\": 1755.962, \"score\": 0.622}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1755.962, \"end\": 1756.442, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1756.442, \"end\": 1756.602, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1756.602, \"end\": 1756.682, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1756.682, \"end\": 1756.742, \"score\": 0.138}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1756.742, \"end\": 1756.882, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1756.882, \"end\": 1756.902, \"score\": 0.296}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1756.902, \"end\": 1757.022, \"score\": 0.608}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1757.022, \"end\": 1757.042, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 1757.042, \"end\": 1757.102, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1757.102, \"end\": 1757.122, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"棲\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1757.122, \"end\": 1757.142, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1757.142, \"end\": 1757.162, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1757.162, \"end\": 1757.262, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1757.262, \"end\": 1757.322, \"score\": 0.369}, {\"word\": \"糾\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 1757.322, \"end\": 1757.342, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1757.342, \"end\": 1757.362, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1761.064, \"end\": 1789.097, \"text\": \"那個就是它原來的棲地是因為我們不夠要去開發所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過連這樣的一個原來很漂亮的湖我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板這個就是本期最後時間有限我只是要提醒我只是要提醒院長就是我們環境的永續跟我們綠能的發展它應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1761.064, \"end\": 1761.364, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1761.364, \"end\": 1761.584, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1761.584, \"end\": 1761.724, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1761.724, \"end\": 1761.984, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 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0.847}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 1782.794, \"end\": 1782.974, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1782.974, \"end\": 1783.094, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"永\", \"start\": 1783.094, \"end\": 1783.914, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1783.914, \"end\": 1784.215, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1784.215, \"end\": 1784.755, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1784.755, \"end\": 1784.935, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1784.935, \"end\": 1785.335, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 1785.335, \"end\": 1785.755, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1785.755, \"end\": 1786.576, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1786.576, \"end\": 1786.796, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 1786.796, \"end\": 1787.016, \"score\": 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0.832}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 1817.692, \"end\": 1817.912, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1817.912, \"end\": 1818.072, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1818.072, \"end\": 1818.273, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"硬\", \"start\": 1818.273, \"end\": 1818.533, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 1818.533, \"end\": 1818.553, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 1819.113, \"end\": 1819.233, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1819.233, \"end\": 1819.253, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,535 --> 00:00:17,463\n謝謝韓院長,也謝謝韓院長送的花,也祝福在座的女閣員、婦女節快樂。那我們是不是有請我們陳院長。再請陳院長,請。王委員午安,恭喜你當選立委,還有祝你婦女節快樂。謝謝院長。\n\n2\n00:00:29,648 --> 00:00:47,982\n院長因為今天是婦女節剛剛林淑芬委員也有說她作為一個媽媽她很關心的是食安問題那我現在擔任外環委員會的召委我也很關心這個食安的問題事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件我們其實召開了這個專案的檢討會議\n\n3\n00:00:51,084 --> 00:01:16,599\n那我要問一下這個院長,你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少?你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉最大的進口商是哪一家?那個寶鑫寶鑫嗎?你認為他是出販還是壘販?寶鑫以前好像曾經也有輸入過一些不合格的這個\n\n4\n00:01:19,401 --> 00:01:37,496\n我們來看一下本席現在就要揭發這個保新他是累犯也是慣犯那他產生的問題是什麼呢有一家跟他登記在同一個地址的公司叫做配軍有限公司\n\n5\n00:01:38,757 --> 00:01:46,602\n這兩家通通登記在同一個地址,而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼?\n\n6\n00:01:46,602 --> 00:01:56,849\n這個配軍他在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出他進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號,當時驗出來的是4號。\n\n7\n00:02:00,151 --> 00:02:20,206\n所以這一家配軍已經有案例在先。另外一個在2019年10月他的黑胡椒原理也是有不得驗出的農藥。所以這一家配軍有案在先。然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私賺頭。\n\n8\n00:02:21,684 --> 00:02:21,844\n王育敏\n\n9\n00:02:38,620 --> 00:02:57,708\n剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族,同一個企業,登記在同一個地址,而現在看到的寶新跟佩君又是在同一個地址,而且他們是之前就已經有犯案記錄了,之前就有不良記錄了,這個院長你們有掌握嗎?\n\n10\n00:02:57,708 --> 00:03:00,169\n這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查。\n\n11\n00:03:01,465 --> 00:03:01,825\n王育敏議員\n\n12\n00:03:19,745 --> 00:03:44,625\n你看2018年就有這樣的一個事件那我要問的是當時2018年發現了有沒有針對這樣的廠商經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步的去監控他後續進口的食品有沒有問題這樣的一個記錄在這個法院有判刑有這樣的一個記錄有沒有回饋給食藥署有沒有到我們的衛福部來\n\n13\n00:03:45,586 --> 00:04:15,246\n我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣的一個時安風暴是我們自己沒有預警的措施如果當時針對發生事件的這個配軍跟保新就已經有所警覺列為高風險列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話我覺得不會放任他今天做大變成是全國最大的這個辣椒粉的進口商而且進口的量這麼的大\n\n14\n00:04:16,587 --> 00:04:42,060\n一直到去年的12月整個攔下來百分之百逐批才真的攔下來但是院長知道嗎根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的63批的他現在是往前推半年而已63批光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品這樣的一個不合格率將近三成\n\n15\n00:04:43,373 --> 00:05:02,202\n而去年一整年我們進口多少從中國大陸進口多少辣椒粉你知道嗎高達超過200公斤212公斤如果你用這樣的一個不合格比率回去推算的話這個數字很驚人他是超過60萬公斤\n\n16\n00:05:24,537 --> 00:05:52,563\n你認為這個問題要怎麼樣可以有效就是更快速的讓這樣的一個風暴可以落幕盡快的把這一些未報彈再找出來到目前為止食藥署今天早上開記者會他們還是覺得還有未報彈他們的推估是正確的如果以他們現在找出來這不合格率這麼高的話那去年去年的上半年進來的這一些裡面很多都是漏網之魚啊\n\n17\n00:05:53,303 --> 00:05:54,545\n那怎麼辦?怎麼處理?\n\n18\n00:05:54,545 --> 00:06:05,740\n院長,來你說。在對於這個已經發生的這些事情當然再要繼續的認真的去追查。未來齁,其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來經濟的計畫。\n\n19\n00:06:06,997 --> 00:06:34,270\n只要任何廠商他只要檢驗出來有不合格的這一個大家關切的這個化學藥品的時候就馬上這一個足比檢查以外就馬上禁止他來進口但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個柱子的這些公司未來在盤點的過程當中應該把所有的同一個柱子的這一個公司所有的進口的產品應該要更完整的來做\n\n20\n00:06:34,950 --> 00:06:35,231\n主批檢查\n\n21\n00:06:50,807 --> 00:07:14,254\n轉來轉去,輪來輪去,這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進加強的地方。謝謝委員提供了這寶貴的意見。好,部長。我要點出,院長要點出一個問題,就是你們現在有一件事情是行政院沒有做好的,而是行政院應該做的。從蘇丹紅事件到現在,風暴已經超過一個月了。但是到目前為止,\n\n22\n00:07:15,274 --> 00:07:33,714\n是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組每週盯進度每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度以我剛剛講的例子今天食藥署發現了任何事情如果你有一個跨部會的小組法務部就應該動起來啊\n\n23\n00:07:35,316 --> 00:07:52,397\n法務部就應該要立刻去追查這個剛剛林淑芬委員還在提到的這個事件是我們在未還委員會裡面開會他揭發出來的但是法務部什麼時候才查什麼時候才動起來法務部是今天吧是不是\n\n24\n00:07:54,219 --> 00:08:22,935\n跟委員報告一下,我們相關的地檢署啊,早就已經分案在偵查,而且要申請法院啊,計壓獲准。有壓了兩個人,包括了新北地檢署,包括了雲林地檢署,還有高雄地檢署。有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下,都全部動起來了。我問的是什麼時候才動起來?很早就動起來,所以才有生壓獲准,才有交保。高雄是什麼時候?高雄比較晚。\n\n25\n00:08:23,868 --> 00:08:48,968\n但是最早雲林還有新北我今天要講的就是爆發這麼大規模的食安危機為什麼到現在行政院竟然還沒有組成一個跨部會的指揮小組我想喔在這個行政院是不是現在立刻組起來可以嗎我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關的這一些食安的問題\n\n26\n00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:53,864\n這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現確實是廠商、布華廠商確實有很這個嚴密的這樣的一個\n\n27\n00:09:02,728 --> 00:09:24,591\n的一個違法的情況我們在中央的我們來成立一個小組來統籌。院長我要求你立刻成立一個小組而這個成績不能太低就是由至少是副院長我想副院長也很有能力可以來指揮各部會把這個案子儘速的查清\n\n28\n00:09:25,091 --> 00:09:40,504\n我剛剛講過這個數字還有很多還在市面上流竄所以你要在最快的時間之內落幕你必須要一個強而有力的指揮讓各部會真正動起來這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決\n\n29\n00:09:41,124 --> 00:10:08,892\n要不然不是靠立法委員來,立法委員舉報一個你們辦一個舉報一個辦一個,這樣就叫做被動跟消極。我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來的話,這個蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕。如果沒有這樣子做的話,再查一個月還查不完。為什麼?這個數字真的很龐大。我們行政院來組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做。好,謝謝院長。我們來組這樣的一個小組。那我接下來就要問各部會了。\n\n30\n00:10:09,392 --> 00:10:36,488\n我們的食安這個匯報裡面大家都是有責任的但是到目前為止我看到我們衛福部部長最辛苦了還戴著口罩然後在委員會裡面所有的事情好像他們一間挑然後就是這個整個食藥署來做但是這件事情太龐雜了我以下我要就教幾位部長們在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼我先請教教育部部長\n\n31\n00:10:38,066 --> 00:10:53,055\n這一件事情涉及到學童的營養午餐的問題。結果我們發現呢第一時間出來之後教育部都沒有聲音學童的營養午餐也都沒有在管然後是各縣市政府\n\n32\n00:10:53,815 --> 00:11:14,217\n教育局或者是教育處他們自己先跳出來自己說為了學童的這個安全所以他們來進是教育局跟教育處先跳出來而且到昨天如果不是本期在委員會裡面要求這個部長要趕快行文給這個教育部要求全國一致的標準\n\n33\n00:11:14,818 --> 00:11:26,088\n你還是讓他個性歧視啊昨天第一時間的時候你就發現有些縣市說哎呀我們的縣市都沒有這個問題產品所以可以不用可以不用這個禁止\n\n34\n00:11:28,059 --> 00:11:51,850\n現成這個這個很多縣市是沒有跟進的誤判結果呢後來發現不對啊為什麼這個食藥署繼續公佈了急轉彎一急轉彎就是說我們不只學校要進我們這個長照機構也要進我們這個相關的醫療機構也要進到目前為止我看到的是每一個縣市禁止的品項\n\n35\n00:11:56,392 --> 00:12:04,017\n教育部部長,為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做?在這件事情也太消極了吧?學童的食安你不用把關嗎?教育部也從食材平台裡面讓學校\n\n36\n00:12:22,585 --> 00:12:22,725\n王育敏\n\n37\n00:12:37,389 --> 00:12:51,598\n那你們就是慢半拍啊,為什麼地方政府跑得比你們快?昨天第一時間就十幾個縣市政府,人家就宣布了。為什麼?因為他們看到衛福部說市場上還有未爆彈啊,他們也不敢保證啊。\n\n38\n00:12:52,995 --> 00:12:54,576\n您們速度為什麼這麼慢呢?\n\n39\n00:12:54,576 --> 00:13:18,207\n那我就問你,衛福部本席在昨天委員會就提了臨時提案,要求全國一致。昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了,你今天批了沒?有沒有要求全國要一致?因為昨天這個衛福部學部長這邊提到可能在查緝的時間還要將近一個月,那這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。\n\n40\n00:13:18,831 --> 00:13:19,871\n你有第一時間發函嗎?\n\n41\n00:13:19,871 --> 00:13:43,540\n是,昨天就發了。我希望這個教育部,你們守護學童的時寒,要動起來,不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面了。那中央級的部長不可以這樣子啊。你應該是要做一個定調跟領導,而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。那另外一個我問你,你現在品項部分,你要進哪些品項?現在每一個縣市都還不一樣。有的進,\n\n42\n00:13:44,460 --> 00:13:49,868\n昨天對於這個項字裡面這兩大項辣椒粉跟咖哩粉我們在昨天的公文裡面是這兩項\n\n43\n00:13:59,462 --> 00:14:23,480\n同意這兩項,那現在還有的縣市還跑出來有白胡椒粉,因為昨天也發現汙染了,那到底要怎麼做?我要求你去研議,就是不要這個整個臺灣然後就變成是多制,然後大家的步調不一,其實食安應該是一致的標準,這個是一個重大食安事件,我要求教育部要這樣做,好來你請回。\n\n44\n00:14:24,921 --> 00:14:47,149\n那我問一下這個法務部部長,你說你們主動偵辦了,那剛剛本席講的這個你要去查嗎?同一個地址,另外那家廠商要去查嗎?他如果有涉及到犯罪,我們檢察官一定會主動來查。他之前已經涉及到了,你認為有可疑,你們也應該主動去偵辦啊。你們偵辦不可以是太被動啊,不能靠立法委員辦案吧。\n\n45\n00:14:48,149 --> 00:14:52,094\n我希望這件事情法務部要主動性而且要硬起來,針對這一些還甚至敢去篡改報告的廠商,絕對是要重罰好不好。\n\n46\n00:15:08,272 --> 00:15:34,680\n好來接下來我要請經濟部經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠這一次爆發這麼大的一個事件請問經濟部部長在這一次食安風暴當中你做了什麼因為這一次是進口的問題不是國內所以國內的部分目前是沒有發現有任何問題那進口商是不是要自主的檢查等等那衛福部食藥署這邊有去\n\n47\n00:15:35,302 --> 00:15:35,662\n拜託經濟部要積極一點\n\n48\n00:15:54,557 --> 00:16:07,853\n到昨天在委員會討論的時候有一些購物平台還有就是他自己跟上游買來在加工的這一些業者他自己也成立網購的平台他們的商品繼續賣並沒有下架\n\n49\n00:16:09,955 --> 00:16:33,193\n那如果這些所有的事情通通都要由衛福部一個單位來承擔這個事件會辦得非常的緩慢但是經濟部這個他們本來就是歸你們管你們可以去要求啊所以這個部分我覺得經濟部也沒有動起來啊你們應該要主動來協助衛福部而不是被動的等著說啊你有什麼需要你跟我講我再來昨天在這個委員會裡面\n\n50\n00:16:35,034 --> 00:16:53,741\n就有委員要求要去查這些廠商結果我們部長說萬米經濟部阿就是我每一個子公司我都去查我都變成經濟部阿那這代表經濟部你作為主管機關你要動起來阿這個部份部長你是不是可以承諾趕快進來這個查驗的行列需要我們協助的我們一定會來做\n\n51\n00:16:55,242 --> 00:17:14,739\n另外一個在2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件我相信部長你一直長期都在經濟部你應該知道當時的毒澱粉事件為了盡快讓消費者可以安心他知道說哪一些品項這個廠商有自主去驗然後他的這個產品是沒有問題的\n\n52\n00:17:16,140 --> 00:17:37,272\n當時就做了一件事情是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的不管你是珍珠奶茶你是霸丸你都要自己一個是你要求上面你的供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉是沒有問題的然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有酸氯酸的這個澱粉\n\n53\n00:17:39,853 --> 00:18:08,792\n那這個的好處是什麼一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的另外一個是讓他把這個壓力就是往上你要供應原料給我你要出具一個安全的證明啊如果我們有這樣的層層把關那我們的食安的漏洞就可以補起來啊那當時那個措施後來就是有止血因為他還加上了行政手段就是你今天貼出自清之後就要代表說你這個是沒有問題喔\n\n54\n00:18:09,813 --> 00:18:32,492\n那這個後端市場繼續查就是它還是持續抽驗如果抽驗到你又貼公告抽驗到你這個產品還是有問題那就開罰那這個就是一個更快速的引進你經濟部這邊的力量然後讓這整個風暴可以盡快的度過因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸\n\n55\n00:18:33,152 --> 00:18:33,332\n王育敏\n\n56\n00:18:53,431 --> 00:19:10,665\n這我們已經開始動起來了,我們除了藉由這個所謂的非東不可的系統告訴這些廠商之外,接下來下一步我們會找這個公協會,相關的公協會我們再再度的去重申那這個自主檢驗的這個\n\n57\n00:19:12,646 --> 00:19:37,130\n我問一下這個院長,你贊不贊成本席就是今天所建議的這個措施一定要也要同步去做,因為你現在整個查緝是由上而下,發現到哪裡查到哪裡,那我們現在是可以由下而上。對,我是覺得topdown還有bottomup這兩個都是必要的,才能夠很完整的去讓這整個問題,未來這個整個問題的\n\n58\n00:19:47,642 --> 00:20:09,818\n所以院長你也贊成嘛那我就要求你今天所承諾的這個專案小組裡面要好好去督導而且要落實因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件我覺得讓很多的家長也不安心國人也不安心現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的而現在最新的是不是紅色的東西白胡椒粉他這個青辣椒粉他也加\n\n59\n00:20:10,879 --> 00:20:22,809\n真的是已經沒有辦法分辨了,本來是以為說有加這個紅辣椒的或者是咖哩的避一下,結果如果連白胡椒現在發現的是有人還這樣子惡意添加的話,那會讓大家感興趣。\n\n60\n00:20:32,976 --> 00:20:56,230\n所以我希望這個食安風暴可以盡快的落幕,那這一些業者,惡意的業者就應該要予以重懲。接下來本時要關心的是再生能源跟環境永續的問題。我們可以看到經濟部希望再生能源的發電量目標比是20%,部長。\n\n61\n00:20:58,905 --> 00:21:08,991\n就是到2025,原則上是2026的時候達到20%。又再延一年了。但是你現在是9.9對不對?\n\n62\n00:21:08,991 --> 00:21:17,157\n9.5。去年底的時候。那你的光電呢?你的光電你現在缺口是多少?\n\n63\n00:21:17,157 --> 00:21:19,338\n光電目前是超過12GB。\n\n64\n00:21:21,783 --> 00:21:24,826\n所以你還缺多少?你目標是20GW吧?\n\n65\n00:21:24,826 --> 00:21:35,597\n20對,還有8個GIGA要追,是。那我這邊還低估了,如果我這邊低估了,我現在講2.15GW,大概是還要在210座大巨蛋,這麼大。\n\n66\n00:21:37,219 --> 00:22:01,349\n那你如果是8的話那還要再乘以3倍那可能是將近超過500座大巨蛋的這麼大的一個面積那現在呢我就要讓這個院長來看一下本席不反對這個光電太陽能光電但是如果你的光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續那這個就叫做本末倒置\n\n67\n00:22:01,889 --> 00:22:24,349\n我們來看一下這一些,現在出現的這一些亂象。第一個,我們原本餘電共生,其實是以農業為主。但結果我們現在的餘電共生,餘溫重變。我們現在餘電共生公告的面積,它佔比啊,佔你的養殖面積,通通都是七八成啊。\n\n68\n00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:54,087\n這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎?你如果是以養殖為主,院長你有看到這個問題嗎?如果是以養殖為主結果你現在公告出來的這些面積都是將近七八成還養得成嗎?而且過去還發生這些文革暴斃根本也沒有辦法然後我過去在地方政府服務的時候也發現他們反映說現在養殖的餘貨越來越少\n\n69\n00:22:55,249 --> 00:23:09,476\n這是不是因為我們餘溫重電,然後有些農民、漁民他可能就沒有要,因為這個價格比較好,所以讓那個量產也下降了,連砂板魚都變貴了,院長你知道嗎?\n\n70\n00:23:12,058 --> 00:23:34,820\n應該不是委員講的這樣所以委員講八成分母指的是什麼這個我再跟委員釐清但是比如說在嘉義台南的漁電共生其實從去年開始有收穫之後其實收穫的情形非常好那我其實也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電共生而且那個有太陽光電之後他其實可以防寒或者太熱\n\n71\n00:23:35,641 --> 00:23:36,562\n我跟委員說明第一個部分就是\n\n72\n00:23:52,159 --> 00:23:53,139\n所以你們的說法就是都沒有問題?公民團體的誤解囉?\n\n73\n00:24:22,014 --> 00:24:23,435\n本席要求你們提供具體的數據因為你們的說法跟\n\n74\n00:24:47,834 --> 00:24:47,934\n另外一個﹖\n\n75\n00:25:11,104 --> 00:25:34,289\n坎數重電這個過去其實有很多團體關心那本席是看了覺得非常的心痛就是說以我們現在追求環境永續樹木對我們人類非常的重要但是我們現在為了追求光電它的這個鋪設率不惜坎數重電這是對的嗎\n\n76\n00:25:36,009 --> 00:26:01,974\n院長你作為一個有高度的院長又是科學家你認為我們臺灣應該是要這樣子去發展嗎?我們沒有砍樹種田但是對一些林向不好的這個地力不佳的這個土地我們才會用來作為這個環電發電的這個場地林向不好跟地力不佳如何定義?有一個很嚴謹的定義嗎?我跟委員說明現在目前平定造林大概是1萬3千多公頃\n\n77\n00:26:03,274 --> 00:26:20,510\n那一萬三千多成你大概分為三類。第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的。那這個部分我們絕對不會去動它反而會去加碼去讓它維護生態。第二個部分是它的林項是可以繼續成材的。那20年可能那個數目還不夠大。\n\n78\n00:26:21,010 --> 00:26:44,097\n如果他繼續在10年的時候我們也會給他獎勵。那第三個才是林項不佳的部分。那林項不佳的部分他未來會恢復農業生產之用。所以到目前為止我們只針對主要的這些林項的部分我們都不會去動他。那只有少部分是針對土壤本身因為他林項不佳就是他土壤本身的地利是不好的。\n\n79\n00:26:44,457 --> 00:26:45,017\n那本席秀出來這一張圖這個是臨向不佳嗎?\n\n80\n00:26:58,377 --> 00:27:17,035\n這個要去看實際的情形我猜這個很多那個之前台廠的地他因為那個當時W關係去那個地不好然後去種林又沒有好好種那那個樹木其實都長不大所以那個那些的地其實也沒有辦法做很好的利用\n\n81\n00:27:17,495 --> 00:27:45,509\n院長我想要提出來就是我們不能本末倒置我說過我沒有反對光電綠能也很好但是如果你是因為達不到你原來設定的目標而因此毀棄了一些的原則然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞這個我反對接下來再看一張我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片這是我到嘉義看到的情況\n\n82\n00:27:46,850 --> 00:27:49,493\n請問院長,站在光電板上面的這個是什麼?看得出來嗎?應該是鳥類吧?對。\n\n83\n00:27:56,923 --> 00:28:17,226\n我們如果發展到如此這般的程度,要去鳥類的棲地,我們還要佈滿了光電板,本來它可以自由自在,在那邊它可以抓魚,它可以棲息,但是為了追求我們的光電的這個整個的目標,所以湖上面,\n\n84\n00:28:17,867 --> 00:28:41,188\n可以鋪設這些光電板不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類這個就是我看到的荒謬的一個現象這個真的應該繼續存在嗎在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源而人類我們先用這樣的方式去破壞了他原來的棲地這樣真的是合理是正常的情況嗎\n\n85\n00:28:42,762 --> 00:29:03,536\n委員你這一張照片我是沒有看過但是在其他的這個案例當中我們是反而看到實際上當我們開始在相關的做這個觀點發展的時候有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看\n\n86\n00:29:04,496 --> 00:29:17,362\n我需要瞭解說這個也是我跟委員報告我有去看過很多案場吼那他會鳥這麼多其實他是旁邊也有棲地那有的時候就會飛到光電板上面那所以有的人說他原來的棲地部長有我糾正你\n\n87\n00:29:21,064 --> 00:29:49,097\n那個就是它原來的棲地是因為我們不夠要去開發所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過連這樣的一個原來很漂亮的湖我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板這個就是本期最後時間有限我只是要提醒我只是要提醒院長就是我們環境的永續跟我們綠能的發展它應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡\n\n88\n00:29:49,637 --> 00:30:18,553\n如果有一些的面向我們已經去侵襲到我們原來鳥類的棲地有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而必須砍伐這個必須要有一個糾正的機制要有一個監督的機制而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色大家都爭著在鋪設光電板沒有人喊煞車沒有人出來糾正所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來\n\n89\n00:30:19,113 --> 00:30:19,253\n謝謝王委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7535\t17463\t謝謝韓院長,也謝謝韓院長送的花,也祝福在座的女閣員、婦女節快樂。那我們是不是有請我們陳院長。再請陳院長,請。王委員午安,恭喜你當選立委,還有祝你婦女節快樂。謝謝院長。\n29648\t47982\t院長因為今天是婦女節剛剛林淑芬委員也有說她作為一個媽媽她很關心的是食安問題那我現在擔任外環委員會的召委我也很關心這個食安的問題事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件我們其實召開了這個專案的檢討會議\n51084\t76599\t那我要問一下這個院長,你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少?你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉最大的進口商是哪一家?那個寶鑫寶鑫嗎?你認為他是出販還是壘販?寶鑫以前好像曾經也有輸入過一些不合格的這個\n79401\t97496\t我們來看一下本席現在就要揭發這個保新他是累犯也是慣犯那他產生的問題是什麼呢有一家跟他登記在同一個地址的公司叫做配軍有限公司\n98757\t106602\t這兩家通通登記在同一個地址,而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼?\n106602\t116849\t這個配軍他在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出他進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號,當時驗出來的是4號。\n120151\t140206\t所以這一家配軍已經有案例在先。另外一個在2019年10月他的黑胡椒原理也是有不得驗出的農藥。所以這一家配軍有案在先。然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私賺頭。\n141684\t141844\t王育敏\n158620\t177708\t剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族,同一個企業,登記在同一個地址,而現在看到的寶新跟佩君又是在同一個地址,而且他們是之前就已經有犯案記錄了,之前就有不良記錄了,這個院長你們有掌握嗎?\n177708\t180169\t這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查。\n181465\t181825\t王育敏議員\n199745\t224625\t你看2018年就有這樣的一個事件那我要問的是當時2018年發現了有沒有針對這樣的廠商經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步的去監控他後續進口的食品有沒有問題這樣的一個記錄在這個法院有判刑有這樣的一個記錄有沒有回饋給食藥署有沒有到我們的衛福部來\n225586\t255246\t我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣的一個時安風暴是我們自己沒有預警的措施如果當時針對發生事件的這個配軍跟保新就已經有所警覺列為高風險列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話我覺得不會放任他今天做大變成是全國最大的這個辣椒粉的進口商而且進口的量這麼的大\n256587\t282060\t一直到去年的12月整個攔下來百分之百逐批才真的攔下來但是院長知道嗎根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的63批的他現在是往前推半年而已63批光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品這樣的一個不合格率將近三成\n283373\t302202\t而去年一整年我們進口多少從中國大陸進口多少辣椒粉你知道嗎高達超過200公斤212公斤如果你用這樣的一個不合格比率回去推算的話這個數字很驚人他是超過60萬公斤\n304053\t323968\t﹚議員\n324537\t352563\t你認為這個問題要怎麼樣可以有效就是更快速的讓這樣的一個風暴可以落幕盡快的把這一些未報彈再找出來到目前為止食藥署今天早上開記者會他們還是覺得還有未報彈他們的推估是正確的如果以他們現在找出來這不合格率這麼高的話那去年去年的上半年進來的這一些裡面很多都是漏網之魚啊\n353303\t354545\t那怎麼辦?怎麼處理?\n354545\t365740\t院長,來你說。在對於這個已經發生的這些事情當然再要繼續的認真的去追查。未來齁,其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來經濟的計畫。\n366997\t394270\t只要任何廠商他只要檢驗出來有不合格的這一個大家關切的這個化學藥品的時候就馬上這一個足比檢查以外就馬上禁止他來進口但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個柱子的這些公司未來在盤點的過程當中應該把所有的同一個柱子的這一個公司所有的進口的產品應該要更完整的來做\n394950\t395231\t主批檢查\n410807\t434254\t轉來轉去,輪來輪去,這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進加強的地方。謝謝委員提供了這寶貴的意見。好,部長。我要點出,院長要點出一個問題,就是你們現在有一件事情是行政院沒有做好的,而是行政院應該做的。從蘇丹紅事件到現在,風暴已經超過一個月了。但是到目前為止,\n435274\t453714\t是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組每週盯進度每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度以我剛剛講的例子今天食藥署發現了任何事情如果你有一個跨部會的小組法務部就應該動起來啊\n455316\t472397\t法務部就應該要立刻去追查這個剛剛林淑芬委員還在提到的這個事件是我們在未還委員會裡面開會他揭發出來的但是法務部什麼時候才查什麼時候才動起來法務部是今天吧是不是\n474219\t502935\t跟委員報告一下,我們相關的地檢署啊,早就已經分案在偵查,而且要申請法院啊,計壓獲准。有壓了兩個人,包括了新北地檢署,包括了雲林地檢署,還有高雄地檢署。有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下,都全部動起來了。我問的是什麼時候才動起來?很早就動起來,所以才有生壓獲准,才有交保。高雄是什麼時候?高雄比較晚。\n503868\t528968\t但是最早雲林還有新北我今天要講的就是爆發這麼大規模的食安危機為什麼到現在行政院竟然還沒有組成一個跨部會的指揮小組我想喔在這個行政院是不是現在立刻組起來可以嗎我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關的這一些食安的問題\n530919\t533864\t這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現確實是廠商、布華廠商確實有很這個嚴密的這樣的一個\n542728\t564591\t的一個違法的情況我們在中央的我們來成立一個小組來統籌。 院長我要求你立刻成立一個小組而這個成績不能太低就是由至少是副院長我想副院長也很有能力可以來指揮各部會把這個案子儘速的查清\n565091\t580504\t我剛剛講過這個數字還有很多還在市面上流竄所以你要在最快的時間之內落幕你必須要一個強而有力的指揮讓各部會真正動起來這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決\n581124\t608892\t要不然不是靠立法委員來,立法委員舉報一個你們辦一個舉報一個辦一個,這樣就叫做被動跟消極。我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來的話,這個蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕。如果沒有這樣子做的話,再查一個月還查不完。為什麼?這個數字真的很龐大。我們行政院來組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做。好,謝謝院長。我們來組這樣的一個小組。那我接下來就要問各部會了。\n609392\t636488\t我們的食安這個匯報裡面大家都是有責任的但是到目前為止我看到我們衛福部部長最辛苦了還戴著口罩然後在委員會裡面所有的事情好像他們一間挑然後就是這個整個食藥署來做但是這件事情太龐雜了我以下我要就教幾位部長們在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼我先請教教育部部長\n638066\t653055\t這一件事情涉及到學童的營養午餐的問題。結果我們發現呢第一時間出來之後教育部都沒有聲音學童的營養午餐也都沒有在管然後是各縣市政府\n653815\t674217\t教育局或者是教育處他們自己先跳出來自己說為了學童的這個安全所以他們來進是教育局跟教育處先跳出來而且到昨天如果不是本期在委員會裡面要求這個部長要趕快行文給這個教育部要求全國一致的標準\n674818\t686088\t你還是讓他個性歧視啊昨天第一時間的時候你就發現有些縣市說哎呀我們的縣市都沒有這個問題產品所以可以不用可以不用這個禁止\n688059\t711850\t現成這個這個很多縣市是沒有跟進的誤判結果呢後來發現不對啊為什麼這個食藥署繼續公佈了急轉彎一急轉彎就是說我們不只學校要進我們這個長照機構也要進我們這個相關的醫療機構也要進到目前為止我看到的是每一個縣市禁止的品項\n716392\t724017\t教育部部長,為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做?在這件事情也太消極了吧?學童的食安你不用把關嗎?教育部也從食材平台裡面讓學校\n742585\t742725\t王育敏\n757389\t771598\t那你們就是慢半拍啊,為什麼地方政府跑得比你們快?昨天第一時間就十幾個縣市政府,人家就宣布了。為什麼?因為他們看到衛福部說市場上還有未爆彈啊,他們也不敢保證啊。\n772995\t774576\t您們速度為什麼這麼慢呢?\n774576\t798207\t那我就問你,衛福部本席在昨天委員會就提了臨時提案,要求全國一致。昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了,你今天批了沒?有沒有要求全國要一致?因為昨天這個衛福部學部長這邊提到可能在查緝的時間還要將近一個月,那這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。\n798831\t799871\t你有第一時間發函嗎?\n799871\t823540\t是,昨天就發了。我希望這個教育部,你們守護學童的時寒,要動起來,不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面了。那中央級的部長不可以這樣子啊。你應該是要做一個定調跟領導,而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。那另外一個我問你,你現在品項部分,你要進哪些品項?現在每一個縣市都還不一樣。有的進,\n824460\t829868\t昨天對於這個項字裡面這兩大項辣椒粉跟咖哩粉我們在昨天的公文裡面是這兩項\n839462\t863480\t同意這兩項,那現在還有的縣市還跑出來有白胡椒粉,因為昨天也發現汙染了,那到底要怎麼做?我要求你去研議,就是不要這個整個臺灣然後就變成是多制,然後大家的步調不一,其實食安應該是一致的標準,這個是一個重大食安事件,我要求教育部要這樣做,好來你請回。\n864921\t887149\t那我問一下這個法務部部長,你說你們主動偵辦了,那剛剛本席講的這個你要去查嗎?同一個地址,另外那家廠商要去查嗎?他如果有涉及到犯罪,我們檢察官一定會主動來查。他之前已經涉及到了,你認為有可疑,你們也應該主動去偵辦啊。你們偵辦不可以是太被動啊,不能靠立法委員辦案吧。\n888149\t892094\t我希望這件事情法務部要主動性而且要硬起來,針對這一些還甚至敢去篡改報告的廠商,絕對是要重罰好不好。\n908272\t934680\t好來接下來我要請經濟部經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠這一次爆發這麼大的一個事件請問經濟部部長在這一次食安風暴當中你做了什麼因為這一次是進口的問題不是國內所以國內的部分目前是沒有發現有任何問題那進口商是不是要自主的檢查等等那衛福部食藥署這邊有去\n935302\t935662\t拜託經濟部要積極一點\n954557\t967853\t到昨天在委員會討論的時候有一些購物平台還有就是他自己跟上游買來在加工的這一些業者他自己也成立網購的平台他們的商品繼續賣並沒有下架\n969955\t993193\t那如果這些所有的事情通通都要由衛福部一個單位來承擔這個事件會辦得非常的緩慢但是經濟部這個他們本來就是歸你們管你們可以去要求啊所以這個部分我覺得經濟部也沒有動起來啊你們應該要主動來協助衛福部而不是被動的等著說啊你有什麼需要你跟我講我再來昨天在這個委員會裡面\n995034\t1013741\t就有委員要求要去查這些廠商結果我們部長說萬米經濟部阿就是我每一個子公司我都去查我都變成經濟部阿那這代表經濟部你作為主管機關你要動起來阿這個部份部長你是不是可以承諾趕快進來這個查驗的行列需要我們協助的我們一定會來做\n1015242\t1034739\t另外一個在2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件我相信部長你一直長期都在經濟部你應該知道當時的毒澱粉事件為了盡快讓消費者可以安心他知道說哪一些品項這個廠商有自主去驗然後他的這個產品是沒有問題的\n1036140\t1057272\t當時就做了一件事情是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的不管你是珍珠奶茶你是霸丸你都要自己一個是你要求上面你的供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉是沒有問題的然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有酸氯酸的這個澱粉\n1059853\t1088792\t那這個的好處是什麼一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的另外一個是讓他把這個壓力就是往上你要供應原料給我你要出具一個安全的證明啊如果我們有這樣的層層把關那我們的食安的漏洞就可以補起來啊那當時那個措施後來就是有止血因為他還加上了行政手段就是你今天貼出自清之後就要代表說你這個是沒有問題喔\n1089813\t1112492\t那這個後端市場繼續查就是它還是持續抽驗如果抽驗到你又貼公告抽驗到你這個產品還是有問題那就開罰那這個就是一個更快速的引進你經濟部這邊的力量然後讓這整個風暴可以盡快的度過因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸\n1113152\t1113332\t王育敏\n1133431\t1150665\t這我們已經開始動起來了,我們除了藉由這個所謂的非東不可的系統告訴這些廠商之外,接下來下一步我們會找這個公協會,相關的公協會我們再再度的去重申那這個自主檢驗的這個\n1152646\t1177130\t我問一下這個院長,你贊不贊成本席就是今天所建議的這個措施一定要也要同步去做,因為你現在整個查緝是由上而下,發現到哪裡查到哪裡,那我們現在是可以由下而上。對,我是覺得top down還有bottom up這兩個都是必要的,才能夠很完整的去讓這整個問題,未來這個整個問題的\n1187642\t1209818\t所以院長你也贊成嘛那我就要求你今天所承諾的這個專案小組裡面要好好去督導而且要落實因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件我覺得讓很多的家長也不安心國人也不安心現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的而現在最新的是不是紅色的東西白胡椒粉他這個青辣椒粉他也加\n1210879\t1222809\t真的是已經沒有辦法分辨了,本來是以為說有加這個紅辣椒的或者是咖哩的避一下,結果如果連白胡椒現在發現的是有人還這樣子惡意添加的話,那會讓大家感興趣。\n1232976\t1256230\t所以我希望這個食安風暴可以盡快的落幕,那這一些業者,惡意的業者就應該要予以重懲。接下來本時要關心的是再生能源跟環境永續的問題。我們可以看到經濟部希望再生能源的發電量目標比是20%,部長。\n1258905\t1268991\t就是到2025,原則上是2026的時候達到20%。 又再延一年了。但是你現在是9.9對不對?\n1268991\t1277157\t9.5。去年底的時候。 那你的光電呢?你的光電你現在缺口是多少?\n1277157\t1279338\t光電目前是超過12GB。\n1281783\t1284826\t所以你還缺多少?你目標是20GW吧?\n1284826\t1295597\t20對,還有8個GIGA要追,是。那我這邊還低估了,如果我這邊低估了,我現在講2.15GW,大概是還要在210座大巨蛋,這麼大。\n1297219\t1321349\t那你如果是8的話那還要再乘以3倍那可能是將近超過500座大巨蛋的這麼大的一個面積那現在呢我就要讓這個院長來看一下本席不反對這個光電太陽能光電但是如果你的光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續那這個就叫做本末倒置\n1321889\t1344349\t我們來看一下這一些,現在出現的這一些亂象。第一個,我們原本餘電共生,其實是以農業為主。但結果我們現在的餘電共生,餘溫重變。我們現在餘電共生公告的面積,它佔比啊,佔你的養殖面積,通通都是七八成啊。\n1345820\t1374087\t這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎?你如果是以養殖為主,院長你有看到這個問題嗎?如果是以養殖為主結果你現在公告出來的這些面積都是將近七八成還養得成嗎?而且過去還發生這些文革暴斃根本也沒有辦法然後我過去在地方政府服務的時候也發現他們反映說現在養殖的餘貨越來越少\n1375249\t1389476\t這是不是因為我們餘溫重電,然後有些農民、漁民他可能就沒有要,因為這個價格比較好,所以讓那個量產也下降了,連砂板魚都變貴了,院長你知道嗎?\n1392058\t1414820\t應該不是委員講的這樣所以委員講八成分母指的是什麼這個我再跟委員釐清但是比如說在嘉義台南的漁電共生其實從去年開始有收穫之後其實收穫的情形非常好那我其實也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電共生而且那個有太陽光電之後他其實可以防寒或者太熱\n1415641\t1416562\t我跟委員說明第一個部分就是\n1432159\t1433139\t所以你們的說法就是都沒有問題?公民團體的誤解囉?\n1462014\t1463435\t本席要求你們提供具體的數據因為你們的說法跟\n1487834\t1487934\t另外一個﹖\n1511104\t1534289\t坎數重電這個過去其實有很多團體關心那本席是看了覺得非常的心痛就是說以我們現在追求環境永續樹木對我們人類非常的重要但是我們現在為了追求光電它的這個鋪設率不惜坎數重電這是對的嗎\n1536009\t1561974\t院長你作為一個有高度的院長又是科學家你認為我們臺灣應該是要這樣子去發展嗎?我們沒有砍樹種田但是對一些林向不好的這個地力不佳的這個土地我們才會用來作為這個環電發電的這個場地林向不好跟地力不佳如何定義?有一個很嚴謹的定義嗎?我跟委員說明現在目前平定造林大概是1萬3千多公頃\n1563274\t1580510\t那一萬三千多成你大概分為三類。第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的。那這個部分我們絕對不會去動它反而會去加碼去讓它維護生態。第二個部分是它的林項是可以繼續成材的。那20年可能那個數目還不夠大。\n1581010\t1604097\t如果他繼續在10年的時候我們也會給他獎勵。 那第三個才是林項不佳的部分。 那林項不佳的部分他未來會恢復農業生產之用。 所以到目前為止我們只針對主要的這些林項的部分我們都不會去動他。 那只有少部分是針對土壤本身因為他林項不佳就是他土壤本身的地利是不好的。\n1604457\t1605017\t那本席秀出來這一張圖這個是臨向不佳嗎?\n1618377\t1637035\t這個要去看實際的情形我猜這個很多那個之前台廠的地他因為那個當時W關係去那個地不好然後去種林又沒有好好種那那個樹木其實都長不大所以那個那些的地其實也沒有辦法做很好的利用\n1637495\t1665509\t院長我想要提出來就是我們不能本末倒置我說過我沒有反對光電綠能也很好但是如果你是因為達不到你原來設定的目標而因此毀棄了一些的原則然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞這個我反對接下來再看一張我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片這是我到嘉義看到的情況\n1666850\t1669493\t請問院長,站在光電板上面的這個是什麼?看得出來嗎?應該是鳥類吧?對。\n1676923\t1697226\t我們如果發展到如此這般的程度,要去鳥類的棲地,我們還要佈滿了光電板,本來它可以自由自在,在那邊它可以抓魚,它可以棲息,但是為了追求我們的光電的這個整個的目標,所以湖上面,\n1697867\t1721188\t可以鋪設這些光電板不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類這個就是我看到的荒謬的一個現象這個真的應該繼續存在嗎在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源而人類我們先用這樣的方式去破壞了他原來的棲地這樣真的是合理是正常的情況嗎\n1722762\t1743536\t委員你這一張照片我是沒有看過但是在其他的這個案例當中我們是反而看到實際上當我們開始在相關的做這個觀點發展的時候有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看\n1744496\t1757362\t我需要瞭解說這個也是我跟委員報告我有去看過很多案場吼那他會鳥這麼多其實他是旁邊也有棲地那有的時候就會飛到光電板上面那所以有的人說他原來的棲地部長有我糾正你\n1761064\t1789097\t那個就是它原來的棲地是因為我們不夠要去開發所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過連這樣的一個原來很漂亮的湖我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板這個就是本期最後時間有限我只是要提醒我只是要提醒院長就是我們環境的永續跟我們綠能的發展它應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡\n1789637\t1818553\t如果有一些的面向我們已經去侵襲到我們原來鳥類的棲地有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而必須砍伐這個必須要有一個糾正的機制要有一個監督的機制而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色大家都爭著在鋪設光電板沒有人喊煞車沒有人出來糾正所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來\n1819113\t1819253\t謝謝王委員\n","txt":"謝謝韓院長,也謝謝韓院長送的花,也祝福在座的女閣員、婦女節快樂。那我們是不是有請我們陳院長。再請陳院長,請。王委員午安,恭喜你當選立委,還有祝你婦女節快樂。謝謝院長。\n院長因為今天是婦女節剛剛林淑芬委員也有說她作為一個媽媽她很關心的是食安問題那我現在擔任外環委員會的召委我也很關心這個食安的問題事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件我們其實召開了這個專案的檢討會議\n那我要問一下這個院長,你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少?你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉最大的進口商是哪一家?那個寶鑫寶鑫嗎?你認為他是出販還是壘販?寶鑫以前好像曾經也有輸入過一些不合格的這個\n我們來看一下本席現在就要揭發這個保新他是累犯也是慣犯那他產生的問題是什麼呢有一家跟他登記在同一個地址的公司叫做配軍有限公司\n這兩家通通登記在同一個地址,而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼?\n這個配軍他在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出他進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號,當時驗出來的是4號。\n所以這一家配軍已經有案例在先。另外一個在2019年10月他的黑胡椒原理也是有不得驗出的農藥。所以這一家配軍有案在先。然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私賺頭。\n王育敏\n剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族,同一個企業,登記在同一個地址,而現在看到的寶新跟佩君又是在同一個地址,而且他們是之前就已經有犯案記錄了,之前就有不良記錄了,這個院長你們有掌握嗎?\n這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查。\n王育敏議員\n你看2018年就有這樣的一個事件那我要問的是當時2018年發現了有沒有針對這樣的廠商經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步的去監控他後續進口的食品有沒有問題這樣的一個記錄在這個法院有判刑有這樣的一個記錄有沒有回饋給食藥署有沒有到我們的衛福部來\n我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣的一個時安風暴是我們自己沒有預警的措施如果當時針對發生事件的這個配軍跟保新就已經有所警覺列為高風險列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話我覺得不會放任他今天做大變成是全國最大的這個辣椒粉的進口商而且進口的量這麼的大\n一直到去年的12月整個攔下來百分之百逐批才真的攔下來但是院長知道嗎根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的63批的他現在是往前推半年而已63批光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品這樣的一個不合格率將近三成\n而去年一整年我們進口多少從中國大陸進口多少辣椒粉你知道嗎高達超過200公斤212公斤如果你用這樣的一個不合格比率回去推算的話這個數字很驚人他是超過60萬公斤\n﹚議員\n你認為這個問題要怎麼樣可以有效就是更快速的讓這樣的一個風暴可以落幕盡快的把這一些未報彈再找出來到目前為止食藥署今天早上開記者會他們還是覺得還有未報彈他們的推估是正確的如果以他們現在找出來這不合格率這麼高的話那去年去年的上半年進來的這一些裡面很多都是漏網之魚啊\n那怎麼辦?怎麼處理?\n院長,來你說。在對於這個已經發生的這些事情當然再要繼續的認真的去追查。未來齁,其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來經濟的計畫。\n只要任何廠商他只要檢驗出來有不合格的這一個大家關切的這個化學藥品的時候就馬上這一個足比檢查以外就馬上禁止他來進口但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個柱子的這些公司未來在盤點的過程當中應該把所有的同一個柱子的這一個公司所有的進口的產品應該要更完整的來做\n主批檢查\n轉來轉去,輪來輪去,這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進加強的地方。謝謝委員提供了這寶貴的意見。好,部長。我要點出,院長要點出一個問題,就是你們現在有一件事情是行政院沒有做好的,而是行政院應該做的。從蘇丹紅事件到現在,風暴已經超過一個月了。但是到目前為止,\n是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組每週盯進度每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度以我剛剛講的例子今天食藥署發現了任何事情如果你有一個跨部會的小組法務部就應該動起來啊\n法務部就應該要立刻去追查這個剛剛林淑芬委員還在提到的這個事件是我們在未還委員會裡面開會他揭發出來的但是法務部什麼時候才查什麼時候才動起來法務部是今天吧是不是\n跟委員報告一下,我們相關的地檢署啊,早就已經分案在偵查,而且要申請法院啊,計壓獲准。有壓了兩個人,包括了新北地檢署,包括了雲林地檢署,還有高雄地檢署。有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下,都全部動起來了。我問的是什麼時候才動起來?很早就動起來,所以才有生壓獲准,才有交保。高雄是什麼時候?高雄比較晚。\n但是最早雲林還有新北我今天要講的就是爆發這麼大規模的食安危機為什麼到現在行政院竟然還沒有組成一個跨部會的指揮小組我想喔在這個行政院是不是現在立刻組起來可以嗎我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關的這一些食安的問題\n這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現確實是廠商、布華廠商確實有很這個嚴密的這樣的一個\n的一個違法的情況我們在中央的我們來成立一個小組來統籌。 院長我要求你立刻成立一個小組而這個成績不能太低就是由至少是副院長我想副院長也很有能力可以來指揮各部會把這個案子儘速的查清\n我剛剛講過這個數字還有很多還在市面上流竄所以你要在最快的時間之內落幕你必須要一個強而有力的指揮讓各部會真正動起來這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決\n要不然不是靠立法委員來,立法委員舉報一個你們辦一個舉報一個辦一個,這樣就叫做被動跟消極。我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來的話,這個蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕。如果沒有這樣子做的話,再查一個月還查不完。為什麼?這個數字真的很龐大。我們行政院來組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做。好,謝謝院長。我們來組這樣的一個小組。那我接下來就要問各部會了。\n我們的食安這個匯報裡面大家都是有責任的但是到目前為止我看到我們衛福部部長最辛苦了還戴著口罩然後在委員會裡面所有的事情好像他們一間挑然後就是這個整個食藥署來做但是這件事情太龐雜了我以下我要就教幾位部長們在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼我先請教教育部部長\n這一件事情涉及到學童的營養午餐的問題。結果我們發現呢第一時間出來之後教育部都沒有聲音學童的營養午餐也都沒有在管然後是各縣市政府\n教育局或者是教育處他們自己先跳出來自己說為了學童的這個安全所以他們來進是教育局跟教育處先跳出來而且到昨天如果不是本期在委員會裡面要求這個部長要趕快行文給這個教育部要求全國一致的標準\n你還是讓他個性歧視啊昨天第一時間的時候你就發現有些縣市說哎呀我們的縣市都沒有這個問題產品所以可以不用可以不用這個禁止\n現成這個這個很多縣市是沒有跟進的誤判結果呢後來發現不對啊為什麼這個食藥署繼續公佈了急轉彎一急轉彎就是說我們不只學校要進我們這個長照機構也要進我們這個相關的醫療機構也要進到目前為止我看到的是每一個縣市禁止的品項\n教育部部長,為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做?在這件事情也太消極了吧?學童的食安你不用把關嗎?教育部也從食材平台裡面讓學校\n王育敏\n那你們就是慢半拍啊,為什麼地方政府跑得比你們快?昨天第一時間就十幾個縣市政府,人家就宣布了。為什麼?因為他們看到衛福部說市場上還有未爆彈啊,他們也不敢保證啊。\n您們速度為什麼這麼慢呢?\n那我就問你,衛福部本席在昨天委員會就提了臨時提案,要求全國一致。昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了,你今天批了沒?有沒有要求全國要一致?因為昨天這個衛福部學部長這邊提到可能在查緝的時間還要將近一個月,那這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。\n你有第一時間發函嗎?\n是,昨天就發了。我希望這個教育部,你們守護學童的時寒,要動起來,不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面了。那中央級的部長不可以這樣子啊。你應該是要做一個定調跟領導,而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。那另外一個我問你,你現在品項部分,你要進哪些品項?現在每一個縣市都還不一樣。有的進,\n昨天對於這個項字裡面這兩大項辣椒粉跟咖哩粉我們在昨天的公文裡面是這兩項\n同意這兩項,那現在還有的縣市還跑出來有白胡椒粉,因為昨天也發現汙染了,那到底要怎麼做?我要求你去研議,就是不要這個整個臺灣然後就變成是多制,然後大家的步調不一,其實食安應該是一致的標準,這個是一個重大食安事件,我要求教育部要這樣做,好來你請回。\n那我問一下這個法務部部長,你說你們主動偵辦了,那剛剛本席講的這個你要去查嗎?同一個地址,另外那家廠商要去查嗎?他如果有涉及到犯罪,我們檢察官一定會主動來查。他之前已經涉及到了,你認為有可疑,你們也應該主動去偵辦啊。你們偵辦不可以是太被動啊,不能靠立法委員辦案吧。\n我希望這件事情法務部要主動性而且要硬起來,針對這一些還甚至敢去篡改報告的廠商,絕對是要重罰好不好。\n好來接下來我要請經濟部經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠這一次爆發這麼大的一個事件請問經濟部部長在這一次食安風暴當中你做了什麼因為這一次是進口的問題不是國內所以國內的部分目前是沒有發現有任何問題那進口商是不是要自主的檢查等等那衛福部食藥署這邊有去\n拜託經濟部要積極一點\n到昨天在委員會討論的時候有一些購物平台還有就是他自己跟上游買來在加工的這一些業者他自己也成立網購的平台他們的商品繼續賣並沒有下架\n那如果這些所有的事情通通都要由衛福部一個單位來承擔這個事件會辦得非常的緩慢但是經濟部這個他們本來就是歸你們管你們可以去要求啊所以這個部分我覺得經濟部也沒有動起來啊你們應該要主動來協助衛福部而不是被動的等著說啊你有什麼需要你跟我講我再來昨天在這個委員會裡面\n就有委員要求要去查這些廠商結果我們部長說萬米經濟部阿就是我每一個子公司我都去查我都變成經濟部阿那這代表經濟部你作為主管機關你要動起來阿這個部份部長你是不是可以承諾趕快進來這個查驗的行列需要我們協助的我們一定會來做\n另外一個在2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件我相信部長你一直長期都在經濟部你應該知道當時的毒澱粉事件為了盡快讓消費者可以安心他知道說哪一些品項這個廠商有自主去驗然後他的這個產品是沒有問題的\n當時就做了一件事情是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的不管你是珍珠奶茶你是霸丸你都要自己一個是你要求上面你的供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉是沒有問題的然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有酸氯酸的這個澱粉\n那這個的好處是什麼一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的另外一個是讓他把這個壓力就是往上你要供應原料給我你要出具一個安全的證明啊如果我們有這樣的層層把關那我們的食安的漏洞就可以補起來啊那當時那個措施後來就是有止血因為他還加上了行政手段就是你今天貼出自清之後就要代表說你這個是沒有問題喔\n那這個後端市場繼續查就是它還是持續抽驗如果抽驗到你又貼公告抽驗到你這個產品還是有問題那就開罰那這個就是一個更快速的引進你經濟部這邊的力量然後讓這整個風暴可以盡快的度過因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸\n王育敏\n這我們已經開始動起來了,我們除了藉由這個所謂的非東不可的系統告訴這些廠商之外,接下來下一步我們會找這個公協會,相關的公協會我們再再度的去重申那這個自主檢驗的這個\n我問一下這個院長,你贊不贊成本席就是今天所建議的這個措施一定要也要同步去做,因為你現在整個查緝是由上而下,發現到哪裡查到哪裡,那我們現在是可以由下而上。對,我是覺得top down還有bottom up這兩個都是必要的,才能夠很完整的去讓這整個問題,未來這個整個問題的\n所以院長你也贊成嘛那我就要求你今天所承諾的這個專案小組裡面要好好去督導而且要落實因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件我覺得讓很多的家長也不安心國人也不安心現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的而現在最新的是不是紅色的東西白胡椒粉他這個青辣椒粉他也加\n真的是已經沒有辦法分辨了,本來是以為說有加這個紅辣椒的或者是咖哩的避一下,結果如果連白胡椒現在發現的是有人還這樣子惡意添加的話,那會讓大家感興趣。\n所以我希望這個食安風暴可以盡快的落幕,那這一些業者,惡意的業者就應該要予以重懲。接下來本時要關心的是再生能源跟環境永續的問題。我們可以看到經濟部希望再生能源的發電量目標比是20%,部長。\n就是到2025,原則上是2026的時候達到20%。 又再延一年了。但是你現在是9.9對不對?\n9.5。去年底的時候。 那你的光電呢?你的光電你現在缺口是多少?\n光電目前是超過12GB。\n所以你還缺多少?你目標是20GW吧?\n20對,還有8個GIGA要追,是。那我這邊還低估了,如果我這邊低估了,我現在講2.15GW,大概是還要在210座大巨蛋,這麼大。\n那你如果是8的話那還要再乘以3倍那可能是將近超過500座大巨蛋的這麼大的一個面積那現在呢我就要讓這個院長來看一下本席不反對這個光電太陽能光電但是如果你的光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續那這個就叫做本末倒置\n我們來看一下這一些,現在出現的這一些亂象。第一個,我們原本餘電共生,其實是以農業為主。但結果我們現在的餘電共生,餘溫重變。我們現在餘電共生公告的面積,它佔比啊,佔你的養殖面積,通通都是七八成啊。\n這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎?你如果是以養殖為主,院長你有看到這個問題嗎?如果是以養殖為主結果你現在公告出來的這些面積都是將近七八成還養得成嗎?而且過去還發生這些文革暴斃根本也沒有辦法然後我過去在地方政府服務的時候也發現他們反映說現在養殖的餘貨越來越少\n這是不是因為我們餘溫重電,然後有些農民、漁民他可能就沒有要,因為這個價格比較好,所以讓那個量產也下降了,連砂板魚都變貴了,院長你知道嗎?\n應該不是委員講的這樣所以委員講八成分母指的是什麼這個我再跟委員釐清但是比如說在嘉義台南的漁電共生其實從去年開始有收穫之後其實收穫的情形非常好那我其實也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電共生而且那個有太陽光電之後他其實可以防寒或者太熱\n我跟委員說明第一個部分就是\n所以你們的說法就是都沒有問題?公民團體的誤解囉?\n本席要求你們提供具體的數據因為你們的說法跟\n另外一個﹖\n坎數重電這個過去其實有很多團體關心那本席是看了覺得非常的心痛就是說以我們現在追求環境永續樹木對我們人類非常的重要但是我們現在為了追求光電它的這個鋪設率不惜坎數重電這是對的嗎\n院長你作為一個有高度的院長又是科學家你認為我們臺灣應該是要這樣子去發展嗎?我們沒有砍樹種田但是對一些林向不好的這個地力不佳的這個土地我們才會用來作為這個環電發電的這個場地林向不好跟地力不佳如何定義?有一個很嚴謹的定義嗎?我跟委員說明現在目前平定造林大概是1萬3千多公頃\n那一萬三千多成你大概分為三類。第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的。那這個部分我們絕對不會去動它反而會去加碼去讓它維護生態。第二個部分是它的林項是可以繼續成材的。那20年可能那個數目還不夠大。\n如果他繼續在10年的時候我們也會給他獎勵。 那第三個才是林項不佳的部分。 那林項不佳的部分他未來會恢復農業生產之用。 所以到目前為止我們只針對主要的這些林項的部分我們都不會去動他。 那只有少部分是針對土壤本身因為他林項不佳就是他土壤本身的地利是不好的。\n那本席秀出來這一張圖這個是臨向不佳嗎?\n這個要去看實際的情形我猜這個很多那個之前台廠的地他因為那個當時W關係去那個地不好然後去種林又沒有好好種那那個樹木其實都長不大所以那個那些的地其實也沒有辦法做很好的利用\n院長我想要提出來就是我們不能本末倒置我說過我沒有反對光電綠能也很好但是如果你是因為達不到你原來設定的目標而因此毀棄了一些的原則然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞這個我反對接下來再看一張我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片這是我到嘉義看到的情況\n請問院長,站在光電板上面的這個是什麼?看得出來嗎?應該是鳥類吧?對。\n我們如果發展到如此這般的程度,要去鳥類的棲地,我們還要佈滿了光電板,本來它可以自由自在,在那邊它可以抓魚,它可以棲息,但是為了追求我們的光電的這個整個的目標,所以湖上面,\n可以鋪設這些光電板不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類這個就是我看到的荒謬的一個現象這個真的應該繼續存在嗎在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源而人類我們先用這樣的方式去破壞了他原來的棲地這樣真的是合理是正常的情況嗎\n委員你這一張照片我是沒有看過但是在其他的這個案例當中我們是反而看到實際上當我們開始在相關的做這個觀點發展的時候有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看\n我需要瞭解說這個也是我跟委員報告我有去看過很多案場吼那他會鳥這麼多其實他是旁邊也有棲地那有的時候就會飛到光電板上面那所以有的人說他原來的棲地部長有我糾正你\n那個就是它原來的棲地是因為我們不夠要去開發所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過連這樣的一個原來很漂亮的湖我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板這個就是本期最後時間有限我只是要提醒我只是要提醒院長就是我們環境的永續跟我們綠能的發展它應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡\n如果有一些的面向我們已經去侵襲到我們原來鳥類的棲地有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而必須砍伐這個必須要有一個糾正的機制要有一個監督的機制而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色大家都爭著在鋪設光電板沒有人喊煞車沒有人出來糾正所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來\n謝謝王委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.535 --> 00:17.463\n謝謝韓院長,也謝謝韓院長送的花,也祝福在座的女閣員、婦女節快樂。那我們是不是有請我們陳院長。再請陳院長,請。王委員午安,恭喜你當選立委,還有祝你婦女節快樂。謝謝院長。\n\n00:29.648 --> 00:47.982\n院長因為今天是婦女節剛剛林淑芬委員也有說她作為一個媽媽她很關心的是食安問題那我現在擔任外環委員會的召委我也很關心這個食安的問題事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件我們其實召開了這個專案的檢討會議\n\n00:51.084 --> 01:16.599\n那我要問一下這個院長,你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少?你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉最大的進口商是哪一家?那個寶鑫寶鑫嗎?你認為他是出販還是壘販?寶鑫以前好像曾經也有輸入過一些不合格的這個\n\n01:19.401 --> 01:37.496\n我們來看一下本席現在就要揭發這個保新他是累犯也是慣犯那他產生的問題是什麼呢有一家跟他登記在同一個地址的公司叫做配軍有限公司\n\n01:38.757 --> 01:46.602\n這兩家通通登記在同一個地址,而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼?\n\n01:46.602 --> 01:56.849\n這個配軍他在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出他進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號,當時驗出來的是4號。\n\n02:00.151 --> 02:20.206\n所以這一家配軍已經有案例在先。另外一個在2019年10月他的黑胡椒原理也是有不得驗出的農藥。所以這一家配軍有案在先。然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私賺頭。\n\n02:21.684 --> 02:21.844\n王育敏\n\n02:38.620 --> 02:57.708\n剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族,同一個企業,登記在同一個地址,而現在看到的寶新跟佩君又是在同一個地址,而且他們是之前就已經有犯案記錄了,之前就有不良記錄了,這個院長你們有掌握嗎?\n\n02:57.708 --> 03:00.169\n這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查。\n\n03:01.465 --> 03:01.825\n王育敏議員\n\n03:19.745 --> 03:44.625\n你看2018年就有這樣的一個事件那我要問的是當時2018年發現了有沒有針對這樣的廠商經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步的去監控他後續進口的食品有沒有問題這樣的一個記錄在這個法院有判刑有這樣的一個記錄有沒有回饋給食藥署有沒有到我們的衛福部來\n\n03:45.586 --> 04:15.246\n我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣的一個時安風暴是我們自己沒有預警的措施如果當時針對發生事件的這個配軍跟保新就已經有所警覺列為高風險列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話我覺得不會放任他今天做大變成是全國最大的這個辣椒粉的進口商而且進口的量這麼的大\n\n04:16.587 --> 04:42.060\n一直到去年的12月整個攔下來百分之百逐批才真的攔下來但是院長知道嗎根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的63批的他現在是往前推半年而已63批光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品這樣的一個不合格率將近三成\n\n04:43.373 --> 05:02.202\n而去年一整年我們進口多少從中國大陸進口多少辣椒粉你知道嗎高達超過200公斤212公斤如果你用這樣的一個不合格比率回去推算的話這個數字很驚人他是超過60萬公斤\n\n05:24.537 --> 05:52.563\n你認為這個問題要怎麼樣可以有效就是更快速的讓這樣的一個風暴可以落幕盡快的把這一些未報彈再找出來到目前為止食藥署今天早上開記者會他們還是覺得還有未報彈他們的推估是正確的如果以他們現在找出來這不合格率這麼高的話那去年去年的上半年進來的這一些裡面很多都是漏網之魚啊\n\n05:53.303 --> 05:54.545\n那怎麼辦?怎麼處理?\n\n05:54.545 --> 06:05.740\n院長,來你說。在對於這個已經發生的這些事情當然再要繼續的認真的去追查。未來齁,其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來經濟的計畫。\n\n06:06.997 --> 06:34.270\n只要任何廠商他只要檢驗出來有不合格的這一個大家關切的這個化學藥品的時候就馬上這一個足比檢查以外就馬上禁止他來進口但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個柱子的這些公司未來在盤點的過程當中應該把所有的同一個柱子的這一個公司所有的進口的產品應該要更完整的來做\n\n06:34.950 --> 06:35.231\n主批檢查\n\n06:50.807 --> 07:14.254\n轉來轉去,輪來輪去,這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進加強的地方。謝謝委員提供了這寶貴的意見。好,部長。我要點出,院長要點出一個問題,就是你們現在有一件事情是行政院沒有做好的,而是行政院應該做的。從蘇丹紅事件到現在,風暴已經超過一個月了。但是到目前為止,\n\n07:15.274 --> 07:33.714\n是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組每週盯進度每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度以我剛剛講的例子今天食藥署發現了任何事情如果你有一個跨部會的小組法務部就應該動起來啊\n\n07:35.316 --> 07:52.397\n法務部就應該要立刻去追查這個剛剛林淑芬委員還在提到的這個事件是我們在未還委員會裡面開會他揭發出來的但是法務部什麼時候才查什麼時候才動起來法務部是今天吧是不是\n\n07:54.219 --> 08:22.935\n跟委員報告一下,我們相關的地檢署啊,早就已經分案在偵查,而且要申請法院啊,計壓獲准。有壓了兩個人,包括了新北地檢署,包括了雲林地檢署,還有高雄地檢署。有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下,都全部動起來了。我問的是什麼時候才動起來?很早就動起來,所以才有生壓獲准,才有交保。高雄是什麼時候?高雄比較晚。\n\n08:23.868 --> 08:48.968\n但是最早雲林還有新北我今天要講的就是爆發這麼大規模的食安危機為什麼到現在行政院竟然還沒有組成一個跨部會的指揮小組我想喔在這個行政院是不是現在立刻組起來可以嗎我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關的這一些食安的問題\n\n08:50.919 --> 08:53.864\n這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現確實是廠商、布華廠商確實有很這個嚴密的這樣的一個\n\n09:02.728 --> 09:24.591\n的一個違法的情況我們在中央的我們來成立一個小組來統籌。院長我要求你立刻成立一個小組而這個成績不能太低就是由至少是副院長我想副院長也很有能力可以來指揮各部會把這個案子儘速的查清\n\n09:25.091 --> 09:40.504\n我剛剛講過這個數字還有很多還在市面上流竄所以你要在最快的時間之內落幕你必須要一個強而有力的指揮讓各部會真正動起來這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決\n\n09:41.124 --> 10:08.892\n要不然不是靠立法委員來,立法委員舉報一個你們辦一個舉報一個辦一個,這樣就叫做被動跟消極。我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來的話,這個蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕。如果沒有這樣子做的話,再查一個月還查不完。為什麼?這個數字真的很龐大。我們行政院來組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做。好,謝謝院長。我們來組這樣的一個小組。那我接下來就要問各部會了。\n\n10:09.392 --> 10:36.488\n我們的食安這個匯報裡面大家都是有責任的但是到目前為止我看到我們衛福部部長最辛苦了還戴著口罩然後在委員會裡面所有的事情好像他們一間挑然後就是這個整個食藥署來做但是這件事情太龐雜了我以下我要就教幾位部長們在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼我先請教教育部部長\n\n10:38.066 --> 10:53.055\n這一件事情涉及到學童的營養午餐的問題。結果我們發現呢第一時間出來之後教育部都沒有聲音學童的營養午餐也都沒有在管然後是各縣市政府\n\n10:53.815 --> 11:14.217\n教育局或者是教育處他們自己先跳出來自己說為了學童的這個安全所以他們來進是教育局跟教育處先跳出來而且到昨天如果不是本期在委員會裡面要求這個部長要趕快行文給這個教育部要求全國一致的標準\n\n11:14.818 --> 11:26.088\n你還是讓他個性歧視啊昨天第一時間的時候你就發現有些縣市說哎呀我們的縣市都沒有這個問題產品所以可以不用可以不用這個禁止\n\n11:28.059 --> 11:51.850\n現成這個這個很多縣市是沒有跟進的誤判結果呢後來發現不對啊為什麼這個食藥署繼續公佈了急轉彎一急轉彎就是說我們不只學校要進我們這個長照機構也要進我們這個相關的醫療機構也要進到目前為止我看到的是每一個縣市禁止的品項\n\n11:56.392 --> 12:04.017\n教育部部長,為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做?在這件事情也太消極了吧?學童的食安你不用把關嗎?教育部也從食材平台裡面讓學校\n\n12:22.585 --> 12:22.725\n王育敏\n\n12:37.389 --> 12:51.598\n那你們就是慢半拍啊,為什麼地方政府跑得比你們快?昨天第一時間就十幾個縣市政府,人家就宣布了。為什麼?因為他們看到衛福部說市場上還有未爆彈啊,他們也不敢保證啊。\n\n12:52.995 --> 12:54.576\n您們速度為什麼這麼慢呢?\n\n12:54.576 --> 13:18.207\n那我就問你,衛福部本席在昨天委員會就提了臨時提案,要求全國一致。昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了,你今天批了沒?有沒有要求全國要一致?因為昨天這個衛福部學部長這邊提到可能在查緝的時間還要將近一個月,那這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。\n\n13:18.831 --> 13:19.871\n你有第一時間發函嗎?\n\n13:19.871 --> 13:43.540\n是,昨天就發了。我希望這個教育部,你們守護學童的時寒,要動起來,不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面了。那中央級的部長不可以這樣子啊。你應該是要做一個定調跟領導,而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。那另外一個我問你,你現在品項部分,你要進哪些品項?現在每一個縣市都還不一樣。有的進,\n\n13:44.460 --> 13:49.868\n昨天對於這個項字裡面這兩大項辣椒粉跟咖哩粉我們在昨天的公文裡面是這兩項\n\n13:59.462 --> 14:23.480\n同意這兩項,那現在還有的縣市還跑出來有白胡椒粉,因為昨天也發現汙染了,那到底要怎麼做?我要求你去研議,就是不要這個整個臺灣然後就變成是多制,然後大家的步調不一,其實食安應該是一致的標準,這個是一個重大食安事件,我要求教育部要這樣做,好來你請回。\n\n14:24.921 --> 14:47.149\n那我問一下這個法務部部長,你說你們主動偵辦了,那剛剛本席講的這個你要去查嗎?同一個地址,另外那家廠商要去查嗎?他如果有涉及到犯罪,我們檢察官一定會主動來查。他之前已經涉及到了,你認為有可疑,你們也應該主動去偵辦啊。你們偵辦不可以是太被動啊,不能靠立法委員辦案吧。\n\n14:48.149 --> 14:52.094\n我希望這件事情法務部要主動性而且要硬起來,針對這一些還甚至敢去篡改報告的廠商,絕對是要重罰好不好。\n\n15:08.272 --> 15:34.680\n好來接下來我要請經濟部經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠這一次爆發這麼大的一個事件請問經濟部部長在這一次食安風暴當中你做了什麼因為這一次是進口的問題不是國內所以國內的部分目前是沒有發現有任何問題那進口商是不是要自主的檢查等等那衛福部食藥署這邊有去\n\n15:35.302 --> 15:35.662\n拜託經濟部要積極一點\n\n15:54.557 --> 16:07.853\n到昨天在委員會討論的時候有一些購物平台還有就是他自己跟上游買來在加工的這一些業者他自己也成立網購的平台他們的商品繼續賣並沒有下架\n\n16:09.955 --> 16:33.193\n那如果這些所有的事情通通都要由衛福部一個單位來承擔這個事件會辦得非常的緩慢但是經濟部這個他們本來就是歸你們管你們可以去要求啊所以這個部分我覺得經濟部也沒有動起來啊你們應該要主動來協助衛福部而不是被動的等著說啊你有什麼需要你跟我講我再來昨天在這個委員會裡面\n\n16:35.034 --> 16:53.741\n就有委員要求要去查這些廠商結果我們部長說萬米經濟部阿就是我每一個子公司我都去查我都變成經濟部阿那這代表經濟部你作為主管機關你要動起來阿這個部份部長你是不是可以承諾趕快進來這個查驗的行列需要我們協助的我們一定會來做\n\n16:55.242 --> 17:14.739\n另外一個在2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件我相信部長你一直長期都在經濟部你應該知道當時的毒澱粉事件為了盡快讓消費者可以安心他知道說哪一些品項這個廠商有自主去驗然後他的這個產品是沒有問題的\n\n17:16.140 --> 17:37.272\n當時就做了一件事情是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的不管你是珍珠奶茶你是霸丸你都要自己一個是你要求上面你的供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉是沒有問題的然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有酸氯酸的這個澱粉\n\n17:39.853 --> 18:08.792\n那這個的好處是什麼一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的另外一個是讓他把這個壓力就是往上你要供應原料給我你要出具一個安全的證明啊如果我們有這樣的層層把關那我們的食安的漏洞就可以補起來啊那當時那個措施後來就是有止血因為他還加上了行政手段就是你今天貼出自清之後就要代表說你這個是沒有問題喔\n\n18:09.813 --> 18:32.492\n那這個後端市場繼續查就是它還是持續抽驗如果抽驗到你又貼公告抽驗到你這個產品還是有問題那就開罰那這個就是一個更快速的引進你經濟部這邊的力量然後讓這整個風暴可以盡快的度過因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸\n\n18:33.152 --> 18:33.332\n王育敏\n\n18:53.431 --> 19:10.665\n這我們已經開始動起來了,我們除了藉由這個所謂的非東不可的系統告訴這些廠商之外,接下來下一步我們會找這個公協會,相關的公協會我們再再度的去重申那這個自主檢驗的這個\n\n19:12.646 --> 19:37.130\n我問一下這個院長,你贊不贊成本席就是今天所建議的這個措施一定要也要同步去做,因為你現在整個查緝是由上而下,發現到哪裡查到哪裡,那我們現在是可以由下而上。對,我是覺得topdown還有bottomup這兩個都是必要的,才能夠很完整的去讓這整個問題,未來這個整個問題的\n\n19:47.642 --> 20:09.818\n所以院長你也贊成嘛那我就要求你今天所承諾的這個專案小組裡面要好好去督導而且要落實因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件我覺得讓很多的家長也不安心國人也不安心現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的而現在最新的是不是紅色的東西白胡椒粉他這個青辣椒粉他也加\n\n20:10.879 --> 20:22.809\n真的是已經沒有辦法分辨了,本來是以為說有加這個紅辣椒的或者是咖哩的避一下,結果如果連白胡椒現在發現的是有人還這樣子惡意添加的話,那會讓大家感興趣。\n\n20:32.976 --> 20:56.230\n所以我希望這個食安風暴可以盡快的落幕,那這一些業者,惡意的業者就應該要予以重懲。接下來本時要關心的是再生能源跟環境永續的問題。我們可以看到經濟部希望再生能源的發電量目標比是20%,部長。\n\n20:58.905 --> 21:08.991\n就是到2025,原則上是2026的時候達到20%。又再延一年了。但是你現在是9.9對不對?\n\n21:08.991 --> 21:17.157\n9.5。去年底的時候。那你的光電呢?你的光電你現在缺口是多少?\n\n21:17.157 --> 21:19.338\n光電目前是超過12GB。\n\n21:21.783 --> 21:24.826\n所以你還缺多少?你目標是20GW吧?\n\n21:24.826 --> 21:35.597\n20對,還有8個GIGA要追,是。那我這邊還低估了,如果我這邊低估了,我現在講2.15GW,大概是還要在210座大巨蛋,這麼大。\n\n21:37.219 --> 22:01.349\n那你如果是8的話那還要再乘以3倍那可能是將近超過500座大巨蛋的這麼大的一個面積那現在呢我就要讓這個院長來看一下本席不反對這個光電太陽能光電但是如果你的光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續那這個就叫做本末倒置\n\n22:01.889 --> 22:24.349\n我們來看一下這一些,現在出現的這一些亂象。第一個,我們原本餘電共生,其實是以農業為主。但結果我們現在的餘電共生,餘溫重變。我們現在餘電共生公告的面積,它佔比啊,佔你的養殖面積,通通都是七八成啊。\n\n22:25.820 --> 22:54.087\n這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎?你如果是以養殖為主,院長你有看到這個問題嗎?如果是以養殖為主結果你現在公告出來的這些面積都是將近七八成還養得成嗎?而且過去還發生這些文革暴斃根本也沒有辦法然後我過去在地方政府服務的時候也發現他們反映說現在養殖的餘貨越來越少\n\n22:55.249 --> 23:09.476\n這是不是因為我們餘溫重電,然後有些農民、漁民他可能就沒有要,因為這個價格比較好,所以讓那個量產也下降了,連砂板魚都變貴了,院長你知道嗎?\n\n23:12.058 --> 23:34.820\n應該不是委員講的這樣所以委員講八成分母指的是什麼這個我再跟委員釐清但是比如說在嘉義台南的漁電共生其實從去年開始有收穫之後其實收穫的情形非常好那我其實也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電共生而且那個有太陽光電之後他其實可以防寒或者太熱\n\n23:35.641 --> 23:36.562\n我跟委員說明第一個部分就是\n\n23:52.159 --> 23:53.139\n所以你們的說法就是都沒有問題?公民團體的誤解囉?\n\n24:22.014 --> 24:23.435\n本席要求你們提供具體的數據因為你們的說法跟\n\n24:47.834 --> 24:47.934\n另外一個﹖\n\n25:11.104 --> 25:34.289\n坎數重電這個過去其實有很多團體關心那本席是看了覺得非常的心痛就是說以我們現在追求環境永續樹木對我們人類非常的重要但是我們現在為了追求光電它的這個鋪設率不惜坎數重電這是對的嗎\n\n25:36.009 --> 26:01.974\n院長你作為一個有高度的院長又是科學家你認為我們臺灣應該是要這樣子去發展嗎?我們沒有砍樹種田但是對一些林向不好的這個地力不佳的這個土地我們才會用來作為這個環電發電的這個場地林向不好跟地力不佳如何定義?有一個很嚴謹的定義嗎?我跟委員說明現在目前平定造林大概是1萬3千多公頃\n\n26:03.274 --> 26:20.510\n那一萬三千多成你大概分為三類。第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的。那這個部分我們絕對不會去動它反而會去加碼去讓它維護生態。第二個部分是它的林項是可以繼續成材的。那20年可能那個數目還不夠大。\n\n26:21.010 --> 26:44.097\n如果他繼續在10年的時候我們也會給他獎勵。那第三個才是林項不佳的部分。那林項不佳的部分他未來會恢復農業生產之用。所以到目前為止我們只針對主要的這些林項的部分我們都不會去動他。那只有少部分是針對土壤本身因為他林項不佳就是他土壤本身的地利是不好的。\n\n26:44.457 --> 26:45.017\n那本席秀出來這一張圖這個是臨向不佳嗎?\n\n26:58.377 --> 27:17.035\n這個要去看實際的情形我猜這個很多那個之前台廠的地他因為那個當時W關係去那個地不好然後去種林又沒有好好種那那個樹木其實都長不大所以那個那些的地其實也沒有辦法做很好的利用\n\n27:17.495 --> 27:45.509\n院長我想要提出來就是我們不能本末倒置我說過我沒有反對光電綠能也很好但是如果你是因為達不到你原來設定的目標而因此毀棄了一些的原則然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞這個我反對接下來再看一張我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片這是我到嘉義看到的情況\n\n27:46.850 --> 27:49.493\n請問院長,站在光電板上面的這個是什麼?看得出來嗎?應該是鳥類吧?對。\n\n27:56.923 --> 28:17.226\n我們如果發展到如此這般的程度,要去鳥類的棲地,我們還要佈滿了光電板,本來它可以自由自在,在那邊它可以抓魚,它可以棲息,但是為了追求我們的光電的這個整個的目標,所以湖上面,\n\n28:17.867 --> 28:41.188\n可以鋪設這些光電板不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類這個就是我看到的荒謬的一個現象這個真的應該繼續存在嗎在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源而人類我們先用這樣的方式去破壞了他原來的棲地這樣真的是合理是正常的情況嗎\n\n28:42.762 --> 29:03.536\n委員你這一張照片我是沒有看過但是在其他的這個案例當中我們是反而看到實際上當我們開始在相關的做這個觀點發展的時候有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看\n\n29:04.496 --> 29:17.362\n我需要瞭解說這個也是我跟委員報告我有去看過很多案場吼那他會鳥這麼多其實他是旁邊也有棲地那有的時候就會飛到光電板上面那所以有的人說他原來的棲地部長有我糾正你\n\n29:21.064 --> 29:49.097\n那個就是它原來的棲地是因為我們不夠要去開發所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過連這樣的一個原來很漂亮的湖我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板這個就是本期最後時間有限我只是要提醒我只是要提醒院長就是我們環境的永續跟我們綠能的發展它應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡\n\n29:49.637 --> 30:18.553\n如果有一些的面向我們已經去侵襲到我們原來鳥類的棲地有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而必須砍伐這個必須要有一個糾正的機制要有一個監督的機制而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色大家都爭著在鋪設光電板沒有人喊煞車沒有人出來糾正所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來\n\n30:19.113 --> 30:19.253\n謝謝王委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.535,"end":17.463,"text":"謝謝韓院長,也謝謝韓院長送的花,也祝福在座的女閣員、婦女節快樂。那我們是不是有請我們陳院長。再請陳院長,請。王委員午安,恭喜你當選立委,還有祝你婦女節快樂。謝謝院長。"},{"start":29.648,"end":47.982,"text":"院長因為今天是婦女節剛剛林淑芬委員也有說她作為一個媽媽她很關心的是食安問題那我現在擔任外環委員會的召委我也很關心這個食安的問題事實上禮拜一我們在委員會就針對蘇丹紅事件我們其實召開了這個專案的檢討會議"},{"start":51.084,"end":76.599,"text":"那我要問一下這個院長,你對現在蘇丹紅事件的掌握有多少?你知不知道現在進口這個含有蘇丹紅辣椒粉最大的進口商是哪一家?那個寶鑫寶鑫嗎?你認為他是出販還是壘販?寶鑫以前好像曾經也有輸入過一些不合格的這個"},{"start":79.401,"end":97.496,"text":"我們來看一下本席現在就要揭發這個保新他是累犯也是慣犯那他產生的問題是什麼呢有一家跟他登記在同一個地址的公司叫做配軍有限公司"},{"start":98.757,"end":106.602,"text":"這兩家通通登記在同一個地址,而且這兩家有一個共通性是什麼?"},{"start":106.602,"end":116.849,"text":"這個配軍他在2018年的2月份就曾經被驗出他進口的辣椒粉含有蘇丹紅色素4號,當時驗出來的是4號。"},{"start":120.151,"end":140.206,"text":"所以這一家配軍已經有案例在先。另外一個在2019年10月他的黑胡椒原理也是有不得驗出的農藥。所以這一家配軍有案在先。然後他們兩家公司同時還在2018年走私賺頭。"},{"start":141.684,"end":141.844,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":158.62,"end":177.708,"text":"剛剛我們看到高雄的是同一個家族,同一個企業,登記在同一個地址,而現在看到的寶新跟佩君又是在同一個地址,而且他們是之前就已經有犯案記錄了,之前就有不良記錄了,這個院長你們有掌握嗎?"},{"start":177.708,"end":180.169,"text":"這個我想我們一定認真的再去清查。"},{"start":181.465,"end":181.825,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":199.745,"end":224.625,"text":"你看2018年就有這樣的一個事件那我要問的是當時2018年發現了有沒有針對這樣的廠商經濟部有沒有針對這樣的廠商再進一步的去監控他後續進口的食品有沒有問題這樣的一個記錄在這個法院有判刑有這樣的一個記錄有沒有回饋給食藥署有沒有到我們的衛福部來"},{"start":225.586,"end":255.246,"text":"我覺得我們現在為什麼會產生這樣的一個時安風暴是我們自己沒有預警的措施如果當時針對發生事件的這個配軍跟保新就已經有所警覺列為高風險列為應該要仔細去查核的對象的話我覺得不會放任他今天做大變成是全國最大的這個辣椒粉的進口商而且進口的量這麼的大"},{"start":256.587,"end":282.06,"text":"一直到去年的12月整個攔下來百分之百逐批才真的攔下來但是院長知道嗎根據食藥署現在自己所查獲的63批的他現在是往前推半年而已63批光是63批就查出了18批的不合格品這樣的一個不合格率將近三成"},{"start":283.373,"end":302.202,"text":"而去年一整年我們進口多少從中國大陸進口多少辣椒粉你知道嗎高達超過200公斤212公斤如果你用這樣的一個不合格比率回去推算的話這個數字很驚人他是超過60萬公斤"},{"start":304.053,"end":323.968,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":324.537,"end":352.563,"text":"你認為這個問題要怎麼樣可以有效就是更快速的讓這樣的一個風暴可以落幕盡快的把這一些未報彈再找出來到目前為止食藥署今天早上開記者會他們還是覺得還有未報彈他們的推估是正確的如果以他們現在找出來這不合格率這麼高的話那去年去年的上半年進來的這一些裡面很多都是漏網之魚啊"},{"start":353.303,"end":354.545,"text":"那怎麼辦?怎麼處理?"},{"start":354.545,"end":365.74,"text":"院長,來你說。在對於這個已經發生的這些事情當然再要繼續的認真的去追查。未來齁,其實我們已經有請衛福部提出一個未來經濟的計畫。"},{"start":366.997,"end":394.27,"text":"只要任何廠商他只要檢驗出來有不合格的這一個大家關切的這個化學藥品的時候就馬上這一個足比檢查以外就馬上禁止他來進口但是你剛才提到的新的事證是說有很多都登記在同一個柱子的這些公司未來在盤點的過程當中應該把所有的同一個柱子的這一個公司所有的進口的產品應該要更完整的來做"},{"start":394.95,"end":395.231,"text":"主批檢查"},{"start":410.807,"end":434.254,"text":"轉來轉去,輪來輪去,這確實是一個我們應該再繼續精進加強的地方。謝謝委員提供了這寶貴的意見。好,部長。我要點出,院長要點出一個問題,就是你們現在有一件事情是行政院沒有做好的,而是行政院應該做的。從蘇丹紅事件到現在,風暴已經超過一個月了。但是到目前為止,"},{"start":435.274,"end":453.714,"text":"是不是行政院都沒有成立任何一個跨部會的小組每週盯進度每週好好的跨部會大家橫向的聯繫來追蹤進度以我剛剛講的例子今天食藥署發現了任何事情如果你有一個跨部會的小組法務部就應該動起來啊"},{"start":455.316,"end":472.397,"text":"法務部就應該要立刻去追查這個剛剛林淑芬委員還在提到的這個事件是我們在未還委員會裡面開會他揭發出來的但是法務部什麼時候才查什麼時候才動起來法務部是今天吧是不是"},{"start":474.219,"end":502.935,"text":"跟委員報告一下,我們相關的地檢署啊,早就已經分案在偵查,而且要申請法院啊,計壓獲准。有壓了兩個人,包括了新北地檢署,包括了雲林地檢署,還有高雄地檢署。有三個地檢署在高檢署的指揮統合之下,都全部動起來了。我問的是什麼時候才動起來?很早就動起來,所以才有生壓獲准,才有交保。高雄是什麼時候?高雄比較晚。"},{"start":503.868,"end":528.968,"text":"但是最早雲林還有新北我今天要講的就是爆發這麼大規模的食安危機為什麼到現在行政院竟然還沒有組成一個跨部會的指揮小組我想喔在這個行政院是不是現在立刻組起來可以嗎我們的食安辦實際上都一直在掌握相關的這一些食安的問題"},{"start":530.919,"end":533.864,"text":"這一件事情因為剛才有很多的事證發現確實是廠商、布華廠商確實有很這個嚴密的這樣的一個"},{"start":542.728,"end":564.591,"text":"的一個違法的情況我們在中央的我們來成立一個小組來統籌。 院長我要求你立刻成立一個小組而這個成績不能太低就是由至少是副院長我想副院長也很有能力可以來指揮各部會把這個案子儘速的查清"},{"start":565.091,"end":580.504,"text":"我剛剛講過這個數字還有很多還在市面上流竄所以你要在最快的時間之內落幕你必須要一個強而有力的指揮讓各部會真正動起來這件事情才有辦法處理跟解決"},{"start":581.124,"end":608.892,"text":"要不然不是靠立法委員來,立法委員舉報一個你們辦一個舉報一個辦一個,這樣就叫做被動跟消極。我相信如果整個行政院願意立刻動起來的話,這個蘇丹紅事件的風暴可以在最快的時間落幕。如果沒有這樣子做的話,再查一個月還查不完。為什麼?這個數字真的很龐大。我們行政院來組一個跨部會的小組馬上來做。好,謝謝院長。我們來組這樣的一個小組。那我接下來就要問各部會了。"},{"start":609.392,"end":636.488,"text":"我們的食安這個匯報裡面大家都是有責任的但是到目前為止我看到我們衛福部部長最辛苦了還戴著口罩然後在委員會裡面所有的事情好像他們一間挑然後就是這個整個食藥署來做但是這件事情太龐雜了我以下我要就教幾位部長們在食安風暴當中你們到底在做什麼我先請教教育部部長"},{"start":638.066,"end":653.055,"text":"這一件事情涉及到學童的營養午餐的問題。結果我們發現呢第一時間出來之後教育部都沒有聲音學童的營養午餐也都沒有在管然後是各縣市政府"},{"start":653.815,"end":674.217,"text":"教育局或者是教育處他們自己先跳出來自己說為了學童的這個安全所以他們來進是教育局跟教育處先跳出來而且到昨天如果不是本期在委員會裡面要求這個部長要趕快行文給這個教育部要求全國一致的標準"},{"start":674.818,"end":686.088,"text":"你還是讓他個性歧視啊昨天第一時間的時候你就發現有些縣市說哎呀我們的縣市都沒有這個問題產品所以可以不用可以不用這個禁止"},{"start":688.059,"end":711.85,"text":"現成這個這個很多縣市是沒有跟進的誤判結果呢後來發現不對啊為什麼這個食藥署繼續公佈了急轉彎一急轉彎就是說我們不只學校要進我們這個長照機構也要進我們這個相關的醫療機構也要進到目前為止我看到的是每一個縣市禁止的品項"},{"start":716.392,"end":724.017,"text":"教育部部長,為什麼在第一時間什麼事情都沒有做?在這件事情也太消極了吧?學童的食安你不用把關嗎?教育部也從食材平台裡面讓學校"},{"start":742.585,"end":742.725,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":757.389,"end":771.598,"text":"那你們就是慢半拍啊,為什麼地方政府跑得比你們快?昨天第一時間就十幾個縣市政府,人家就宣布了。為什麼?因為他們看到衛福部說市場上還有未爆彈啊,他們也不敢保證啊。"},{"start":772.995,"end":774.576,"text":"您們速度為什麼這麼慢呢?"},{"start":774.576,"end":798.207,"text":"那我就問你,衛福部本席在昨天委員會就提了臨時提案,要求全國一致。昨天晚上9點衛福部把公文給教育部了,你今天批了沒?有沒有要求全國要一致?因為昨天這個衛福部學部長這邊提到可能在查緝的時間還要將近一個月,那這個時間教育部在昨天已經發函給所有縣市跟學校。"},{"start":798.831,"end":799.871,"text":"你有第一時間發函嗎?"},{"start":799.871,"end":823.54,"text":"是,昨天就發了。我希望這個教育部,你們守護學童的時寒,要動起來,不要這麼的被動。我目前看到都是地方政府跑在前面了。那中央級的部長不可以這樣子啊。你應該是要做一個定調跟領導,而不是讓地方政府跑在前面。那另外一個我問你,你現在品項部分,你要進哪些品項?現在每一個縣市都還不一樣。有的進,"},{"start":824.46,"end":829.868,"text":"昨天對於這個項字裡面這兩大項辣椒粉跟咖哩粉我們在昨天的公文裡面是這兩項"},{"start":839.462,"end":863.48,"text":"同意這兩項,那現在還有的縣市還跑出來有白胡椒粉,因為昨天也發現汙染了,那到底要怎麼做?我要求你去研議,就是不要這個整個臺灣然後就變成是多制,然後大家的步調不一,其實食安應該是一致的標準,這個是一個重大食安事件,我要求教育部要這樣做,好來你請回。"},{"start":864.921,"end":887.149,"text":"那我問一下這個法務部部長,你說你們主動偵辦了,那剛剛本席講的這個你要去查嗎?同一個地址,另外那家廠商要去查嗎?他如果有涉及到犯罪,我們檢察官一定會主動來查。他之前已經涉及到了,你認為有可疑,你們也應該主動去偵辦啊。你們偵辦不可以是太被動啊,不能靠立法委員辦案吧。"},{"start":888.149,"end":892.094,"text":"我希望這件事情法務部要主動性而且要硬起來,針對這一些還甚至敢去篡改報告的廠商,絕對是要重罰好不好。"},{"start":908.272,"end":934.68,"text":"好來接下來我要請經濟部經濟部轄下有這麼多的食品廠這一次爆發這麼大的一個事件請問經濟部部長在這一次食安風暴當中你做了什麼因為這一次是進口的問題不是國內所以國內的部分目前是沒有發現有任何問題那進口商是不是要自主的檢查等等那衛福部食藥署這邊有去"},{"start":935.302,"end":935.662,"text":"拜託經濟部要積極一點"},{"start":954.557,"end":967.853,"text":"到昨天在委員會討論的時候有一些購物平台還有就是他自己跟上游買來在加工的這一些業者他自己也成立網購的平台他們的商品繼續賣並沒有下架"},{"start":969.955,"end":993.193,"text":"那如果這些所有的事情通通都要由衛福部一個單位來承擔這個事件會辦得非常的緩慢但是經濟部這個他們本來就是歸你們管你們可以去要求啊所以這個部分我覺得經濟部也沒有動起來啊你們應該要主動來協助衛福部而不是被動的等著說啊你有什麼需要你跟我講我再來昨天在這個委員會裡面"},{"start":995.034,"end":1013.741,"text":"就有委員要求要去查這些廠商結果我們部長說萬米經濟部阿就是我每一個子公司我都去查我都變成經濟部阿那這代表經濟部你作為主管機關你要動起來阿這個部份部長你是不是可以承諾趕快進來這個查驗的行列需要我們協助的我們一定會來做"},{"start":1015.242,"end":1034.739,"text":"另外一個在2013年曾經發生毒澱粉事件我相信部長你一直長期都在經濟部你應該知道當時的毒澱粉事件為了盡快讓消費者可以安心他知道說哪一些品項這個廠商有自主去驗然後他的這個產品是沒有問題的"},{"start":1036.14,"end":1057.272,"text":"當時就做了一件事情是要求這些有使用到澱粉產品的不管你是珍珠奶茶你是霸丸你都要自己一個是你要求上面你的供應商給你一個保證證明他的澱粉是沒有問題的然後他就可以貼出這個公告說本店不使用含有酸氯酸的這個澱粉"},{"start":1059.853,"end":1088.792,"text":"那這個的好處是什麼一個就是你讓這一些廠商也動起來自己自清嘛就是說我這個東西是沒有問題的另外一個是讓他把這個壓力就是往上你要供應原料給我你要出具一個安全的證明啊如果我們有這樣的層層把關那我們的食安的漏洞就可以補起來啊那當時那個措施後來就是有止血因為他還加上了行政手段就是你今天貼出自清之後就要代表說你這個是沒有問題喔"},{"start":1089.813,"end":1112.492,"text":"那這個後端市場繼續查就是它還是持續抽驗如果抽驗到你又貼公告抽驗到你這個產品還是有問題那就開罰那這個就是一個更快速的引進你經濟部這邊的力量然後讓這整個風暴可以盡快的度過因為昨天部長也說我們有八成的辣椒是來自中國大陸"},{"start":1113.152,"end":1113.332,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":1133.431,"end":1150.665,"text":"這我們已經開始動起來了,我們除了藉由這個所謂的非東不可的系統告訴這些廠商之外,接下來下一步我們會找這個公協會,相關的公協會我們再再度的去重申那這個自主檢驗的這個"},{"start":1152.646,"end":1177.13,"text":"我問一下這個院長,你贊不贊成本席就是今天所建議的這個措施一定要也要同步去做,因為你現在整個查緝是由上而下,發現到哪裡查到哪裡,那我們現在是可以由下而上。對,我是覺得top down還有bottom up這兩個都是必要的,才能夠很完整的去讓這整個問題,未來這個整個問題的"},{"start":1187.642,"end":1209.818,"text":"所以院長你也贊成嘛那我就要求你今天所承諾的這個專案小組裡面要好好去督導而且要落實因為這一次蘇丹紅的事件我覺得讓很多的家長也不安心國人也不安心現在只要看到紅色的東西都會覺得心裡怕怕的而現在最新的是不是紅色的東西白胡椒粉他這個青辣椒粉他也加"},{"start":1210.879,"end":1222.809,"text":"真的是已經沒有辦法分辨了,本來是以為說有加這個紅辣椒的或者是咖哩的避一下,結果如果連白胡椒現在發現的是有人還這樣子惡意添加的話,那會讓大家感興趣。"},{"start":1232.976,"end":1256.23,"text":"所以我希望這個食安風暴可以盡快的落幕,那這一些業者,惡意的業者就應該要予以重懲。接下來本時要關心的是再生能源跟環境永續的問題。我們可以看到經濟部希望再生能源的發電量目標比是20%,部長。"},{"start":1258.905,"end":1268.991,"text":"就是到2025,原則上是2026的時候達到20%。 又再延一年了。但是你現在是9.9對不對?"},{"start":1268.991,"end":1277.157,"text":"9.5。去年底的時候。 那你的光電呢?你的光電你現在缺口是多少?"},{"start":1277.157,"end":1279.338,"text":"光電目前是超過12GB。"},{"start":1281.783,"end":1284.826,"text":"所以你還缺多少?你目標是20GW吧?"},{"start":1284.826,"end":1295.597,"text":"20對,還有8個GIGA要追,是。那我這邊還低估了,如果我這邊低估了,我現在講2.15GW,大概是還要在210座大巨蛋,這麼大。"},{"start":1297.219,"end":1321.349,"text":"那你如果是8的話那還要再乘以3倍那可能是將近超過500座大巨蛋的這麼大的一個面積那現在呢我就要讓這個院長來看一下本席不反對這個光電太陽能光電但是如果你的光電的發展已經影響到了我們的生態跟永續那這個就叫做本末倒置"},{"start":1321.889,"end":1344.349,"text":"我們來看一下這一些,現在出現的這一些亂象。第一個,我們原本餘電共生,其實是以農業為主。但結果我們現在的餘電共生,餘溫重變。我們現在餘電共生公告的面積,它佔比啊,佔你的養殖面積,通通都是七八成啊。"},{"start":1345.82,"end":1374.087,"text":"這麼大的一個比例有可能嗎?你如果是以養殖為主,院長你有看到這個問題嗎?如果是以養殖為主結果你現在公告出來的這些面積都是將近七八成還養得成嗎?而且過去還發生這些文革暴斃根本也沒有辦法然後我過去在地方政府服務的時候也發現他們反映說現在養殖的餘貨越來越少"},{"start":1375.249,"end":1389.476,"text":"這是不是因為我們餘溫重電,然後有些農民、漁民他可能就沒有要,因為這個價格比較好,所以讓那個量產也下降了,連砂板魚都變貴了,院長你知道嗎?"},{"start":1392.058,"end":1414.82,"text":"應該不是委員講的這樣所以委員講八成分母指的是什麼這個我再跟委員釐清但是比如說在嘉義台南的漁電共生其實從去年開始有收穫之後其實收穫的情形非常好那我其實也非常樂意帶委員去看那個漁電共生而且那個有太陽光電之後他其實可以防寒或者太熱"},{"start":1415.641,"end":1416.562,"text":"我跟委員說明第一個部分就是"},{"start":1432.159,"end":1433.139,"text":"所以你們的說法就是都沒有問題?公民團體的誤解囉?"},{"start":1462.014,"end":1463.435,"text":"本席要求你們提供具體的數據因為你們的說法跟"},{"start":1487.834,"end":1487.934,"text":"另外一個﹖"},{"start":1511.104,"end":1534.289,"text":"坎數重電這個過去其實有很多團體關心那本席是看了覺得非常的心痛就是說以我們現在追求環境永續樹木對我們人類非常的重要但是我們現在為了追求光電它的這個鋪設率不惜坎數重電這是對的嗎"},{"start":1536.009,"end":1561.974,"text":"院長你作為一個有高度的院長又是科學家你認為我們臺灣應該是要這樣子去發展嗎?我們沒有砍樹種田但是對一些林向不好的這個地力不佳的這個土地我們才會用來作為這個環電發電的這個場地林向不好跟地力不佳如何定義?有一個很嚴謹的定義嗎?我跟委員說明現在目前平定造林大概是1萬3千多公頃"},{"start":1563.274,"end":1580.51,"text":"那一萬三千多成你大概分為三類。第一類就是它已經具有生態價值的。那這個部分我們絕對不會去動它反而會去加碼去讓它維護生態。第二個部分是它的林項是可以繼續成材的。那20年可能那個數目還不夠大。"},{"start":1581.01,"end":1604.097,"text":"如果他繼續在10年的時候我們也會給他獎勵。 那第三個才是林項不佳的部分。 那林項不佳的部分他未來會恢復農業生產之用。 所以到目前為止我們只針對主要的這些林項的部分我們都不會去動他。 那只有少部分是針對土壤本身因為他林項不佳就是他土壤本身的地利是不好的。"},{"start":1604.457,"end":1605.017,"text":"那本席秀出來這一張圖這個是臨向不佳嗎?"},{"start":1618.377,"end":1637.035,"text":"這個要去看實際的情形我猜這個很多那個之前台廠的地他因為那個當時W關係去那個地不好然後去種林又沒有好好種那那個樹木其實都長不大所以那個那些的地其實也沒有辦法做很好的利用"},{"start":1637.495,"end":1665.509,"text":"院長我想要提出來就是我們不能本末倒置我說過我沒有反對光電綠能也很好但是如果你是因為達不到你原來設定的目標而因此毀棄了一些的原則然後讓我們的生態也遭到破壞這個我反對接下來再看一張我覺得這是一個很荒謬的照片這是我到嘉義看到的情況"},{"start":1666.85,"end":1669.493,"text":"請問院長,站在光電板上面的這個是什麼?看得出來嗎?應該是鳥類吧?對。"},{"start":1676.923,"end":1697.226,"text":"我們如果發展到如此這般的程度,要去鳥類的棲地,我們還要佈滿了光電板,本來它可以自由自在,在那邊它可以抓魚,它可以棲息,但是為了追求我們的光電的這個整個的目標,所以湖上面,"},{"start":1697.867,"end":1721.188,"text":"可以鋪設這些光電板不考慮原來這邊有沒有鳥類這個就是我看到的荒謬的一個現象這個真的應該繼續存在嗎在嘉義這一些鳥類其實是非常珍貴的資源而人類我們先用這樣的方式去破壞了他原來的棲地這樣真的是合理是正常的情況嗎"},{"start":1722.762,"end":1743.536,"text":"委員你這一張照片我是沒有看過但是在其他的這個案例當中我們是反而看到實際上當我們開始在相關的做這個觀點發展的時候有一些地方的棲地反而鳥類越來越多所以我是覺得以單一的照片來看"},{"start":1744.496,"end":1757.362,"text":"我需要瞭解說這個也是我跟委員報告我有去看過很多案場吼那他會鳥這麼多其實他是旁邊也有棲地那有的時候就會飛到光電板上面那所以有的人說他原來的棲地部長有我糾正你"},{"start":1761.064,"end":1789.097,"text":"那個就是它原來的棲地是因為我們不夠要去開發所以連這樣的地方我們都不放過連這樣的一個原來很漂亮的湖我們都必須在上面鋪滿了光電板這個就是本期最後時間有限我只是要提醒我只是要提醒院長就是我們環境的永續跟我們綠能的發展它應該要取得一個平衡而不是失衡"},{"start":1789.637,"end":1818.553,"text":"如果有一些的面向我們已經去侵襲到我們原來鳥類的棲地有一些我們該保留的林地也因為必須鋪設光電板而必須砍伐這個必須要有一個糾正的機制要有一個監督的機制而現在我看不到行政院裡面有任何一個部門來擔任這樣的角色大家都爭著在鋪設光電板沒有人喊煞車沒有人出來糾正所以我希望我們的環境部要硬起來"},{"start":1819.113,"end":1819.253,"text":"謝謝王委員"}]}}}}