{"id":149609,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc0915a56889f100ccd230da91660cc9cbf8ba9b0039caa7a6617961a7114e88395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"16:45:10 - 17:01:03","影片長度":"00:15:53","會議時間":"2024-03-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-08","duration":953,"end_time":"2024-03-08T17:01:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-08T16:45:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":723,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（16時45分）謝謝主席。有請陳院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：羅委員午安，恭喜你當選連任，然後祝你婦女節快樂。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝院長，院長你也辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["羅委員美玲：今天是婦女節，我也先祝在場的女士們婦女節快樂。院長，在上一屆本席就已經跟你探討過我國的通譯制度，本席除了跟院長探討之外，跟相關的單位也曾經做過很多次溝通，去年我也開了公聽會，聽取專家學者的一些意見。當然在這裡，我要特別感謝我們林萬億政委還有我們內政部有邀集了相關的機關，我們擬定了通譯制度精進試辦計畫，而且這個計畫在今年的4月1號就要上路了，當然這是我國通譯制度往前邁進一個很好的現象。","針對這個精進計畫，我有看到主責單位就是我們內政部移民署，移民署這邊提出了四個面向，針對這四個面向提出了檢討跟改善的目標。我們來先看有哪四個面向，第一個面向就是華語文程度。華語文程度現行的狀況，除了檢察署跟警察機關有明訂需求跟測驗之外，其他機關並沒有這個規範。現在我們所推動的這個試辦計畫裡面，就有設定華語文能力的門檻，比如說華語文能力測驗的聽讀及口語能力，必須在B1以上。","培訓課程則是本席最重視的一部分，像培訓的課程過去都是大同小異，而且課程的時數真的非常得少，只有8到15個小時，這跟歐美通譯制度的培訓差很多，歐美幾乎都到100小時以上，現在我們全面提升培訓的時間至少要14個小時，這個時數也讓我覺得無法接受。雖然我們說要改善，可是培訓課程的時間真的還是讓人沒有辦法接受，基礎課程6個小時，專業課程至少8個小時。","通譯的費用可能是讓通譯人員覺得比較安慰的地方，因為除了司法通譯由法務部全責辦理之外，像其他的公共事務通譯，現況是每個小時平均300塊，現在我們提升到每個小時500塊，夜間還有加倍的付費。","詞彙資料庫這個部分，我們現行的詞彙資料庫是以中英文對照為主，對於醫療、司法跟移民事務這些各領域的專用詞彙中，東南亞語是非常少的。現在在這個計畫裡面，新住民發展基金補助建置越南跟印尼語各100個字，然後各個機關逐年開發建置常用的資料庫，詞彙納入國教院的樂詞網，這是我所看到的，就是前後會有這樣子的改善，可是這個改善真的有達到之前我們所談到的，有解決我們之前所討論的那些問題嗎？待會可能要請教我們院長。","像課程時數好了，本席剛剛有提到，基礎6個小時，專業至少8個小時，是不是真的足夠？我們來看一下，現在我們的組別有分成5個組別，司法通譯、警政業務、醫療衛生，還有就業服務跟移民輔導。我挑一個跟院長有關係的醫療衛生好了，在這個計畫裡面，總共有12個小時是專業課程的部分。院長你看，人體構造與基礎知識1個小時，就醫、檢查與治療流程常見用語訓練及演練2個小時，內科醫療常見用語訓練2個小時，外科醫療常見用語訓練2個小時，後面零零總總全部加起來12個小時。基礎6個小時，再加上這12個小時，總共18個小時後，他就要去考試。經過考試後取得認證，就可以當通譯人員，院長，可以想像得到嗎？經過18個小時他就要上場做通譯！這些醫療用語，院長，我之前也跟您提過，這些醫療用語都非常非常專業。但在這個計畫裡，前前後後十幾個小時他就必須上場，必須當醫療專業人員的翻譯。某個移工去就診說肚子痛，也許醫生說這可能是腹膜炎，這有辦法去翻譯嗎？可能到資料庫裡面去抓，可是還有其他的專業名詞，真的有辦法去因應嗎？請問院長。"],["陳院長建仁：這部分因為我不曉得詳細的課程內容……"],["羅委員美玲：是，我們連課程內容都搞不清楚。可是我們不要看內容，光2個小時、1個小時這時數就讓人家覺得無法接受！"],["陳院長建仁：這就要看這個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠，如果基本知識就需要再加強時，當然就會有差。也就是說，被訓的人如果本身有醫療背景當然就比較好一點。如果沒有的話……"],["羅委員美玲：院長，跟您報告，這些去上課的受訓人員絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。"],["陳院長建仁：我曉得。"],["羅委員美玲：您瞭解？"],["陳院長建仁：我曉得，所以……"],["羅委員美玲：您認為，新住民會講越南語也好，會講印尼語也好，真的有辦法確確實實去做這些專業名詞的翻譯嗎？真的有辦法嗎？像司法通譯也是一樣，檢察業務簡介2個小時，法律常識3個小時，偵查程序概要3個小時，實務演練3個小時，還有演練3個小時，再通過考試，我想考試的內容絕對就是上課內容，但實務上面遇到的絕對超過上課內容！不管用的名詞也好，用的這些語言也好，也許跟母國都沒有關係。也許他的知識只侷限在所上課的內容，可是在實務操作上，絕對遠遠超過這些內容！"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生，以醫療衛生來講，不要說新住民，我們的國人如果沒有受過醫療訓練的話，很多東西其實也沒有辦法瞭解，也沒有辦法說明給他的家屬去瞭解，但是……"],["羅委員美玲：部長，你也承認了……"],["薛部長瑞元：但這是基礎訓練……"],["羅委員美玲：我們有進階訓練嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，真正所謂的訓練是實際上去操作，所以對這些通譯人員，我們的建議當然就是，如果你是屬於醫療衛生這一組的話，就固定在這一組，因為你這樣才能夠……"],["羅委員美玲：部長是說邊做邊學的意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來就是這樣，因為……"],["羅委員美玲：本來就是這樣？萬一如果翻譯錯誤……"],["薛部長瑞元：不可能把所有都學好再上陣。"],["羅委員美玲：部長也許覺得衛生醫療可以邊做邊學，那我想請教司法通譯呢？司法通譯怎麼辦？為什麼我會舉這個例子？我跟各位講一個很真實的案例。","在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工，他剛來臺灣就被雇主猥褻，當然他要去投訴……薛部長請回。","這個看護工就跟仲介公司投訴，換了一個雇主，可是更糟糕，第二個雇主居然就性侵了他，這是真實的案例。這名菲律賓家庭看護工最後當然就是報案，兩個案子他都報案了，後來也走了司法程序。可是最後判決出來是第一個雇主沒事，第二個雇主的性侵案也不成立，這位菲律賓的家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受。這位菲律賓的看護工不會中文，也不會英語，不是所有菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文，他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語，當然判決書他看不懂，他敗訴，他不知道為什麼，他就跟他的朋友說，在我們的母國性侵害者是要被判刑的，為什麼臺灣不用？到後來他找了人家來看了他的判決書後，他非常的崩潰，裡面怎麼寫呢？說他的說詞前後不一，還說他是個騙子。為什麼會前後不一？這跟什麼有關係？這跟通譯的專業度有關係。","法務部長可看一下過去曾經有這個案子，他必須去警局做筆錄，有一位通譯，檢察官偵訊時也有一位通譯，到法院開庭時也有通譯，都有通譯陪伴，可是通譯都不是同一位。通譯都不是同一位，說實在我們也知道在司法判決時，你的證詞有沒有前後一致是很重要的，結果說他前後都不一致，可是這位受害者說自己前後都是一致的啊，那麼為什麼會不一致？因為通譯翻譯的都不一樣。通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣，造成最後他居然是二個案子都不成立，他是一個受害者，這是真實發生的事情喔！","所以本席覺得通譯問題就是人權問題，但我覺得到現在為止，臺灣，我們的中央政府對通譯覺得好像不過就是個翻譯而已嘛，而且這麼多年了，通譯問題我們談論了很多很多年，可是就是沒有一套、一個統一的認證制度，專業課程也沒有，我所看到的這個計畫，隨隨便便上幾個小時的課他就必須上場做翻譯了。","再來，還有讓我失望的是這個計畫的主責單位竟然是移民署，移民署是一個三級單位，為什麼會是在移民署？這麼重要的專業通譯制度，竟然是落在三級機關移民署，我想移民署也很無奈，沒有人也沒有經費。院長，我想這個部分真的是要審慎來做思考，真的要審慎做思考！教育部的角色在哪裡？國發會的角色在哪裡？我們現在只是說國教院，詞彙納入國教院的詞庫，但其他的呢？教育部沒有角色嗎？國發會沒有角色嗎？這是一個很重要的問題，為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷地跟院長討論？因為我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境。再來還有就是因為移民署叫不動其他部會，所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理。一樣下放到縣市政府各自去辦理，培訓到現在為止還是一樣，我們的取得資格、認證資格還是不一樣，要怎麼測驗由各部會自己去認證吧，勞保也沒有，專業保險也沒有，意外險什麼的都沒有，所以很多通譯人員就把通譯工作當成是打零工，就是一個副業，所有人才都跑到別的領域去了！","所以我在這裡真的是很語重心長，其實我上次就已經說過了，請去參考澳洲的NAATI這個機構，也就是澳洲的國家翻譯及口譯認證機構，這個認證機構是在1977年設立的，在NAATI成立以前，澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫做AUSIT，由它來規範培訓課程，等到AUSIT成熟之後，輔導它成熟變成一個獨立運作機構之後，才成立NAATI，所以他們二個的角色是說，AUSIT是培訓機構，NAATI是認證機構。所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位，真的要認真看待臺灣的通譯制度，這整個過程都要非常非常的嚴謹，臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待？尤其是在臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下，再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工，所以一個完善的通譯制度真的非常非常重要。所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位跨部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的通譯制度要如何走。院長，還有一點時間，讓你回復一下。"],["陳院長建仁：好，上一次您也提到這個問題，我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進，不過考慮澳洲制度可行性的話，我們會請一位相關的政委來先考慮一下各部會，然後看看這個AUSIT的結構怎麼樣，因為我們上次的情況是由移民署在進行。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝院長，大家加油啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員美玲的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第56號徐委員欣瑩質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃健豪","沈發惠","柯志恩","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","王育敏","張宏陸","陳菁徽","羅美玲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":24,"meetingDate":["2024-03-08"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00002","1130601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1130601_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"149609","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149609","tool":"pyannote","id":"149609-pyannote"},"job_id":"yKK2nu14JpCXoDYs","queued_at":"2024-06-02 07:16:32","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 07:18:19","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149609"},{"time":"2024-06-02 07:18:20","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e7383c0ce4a703cc0915a56889f100ccd230da91660cc9cb94d61157061f5d50f4d63c271f6545ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 07:18:47","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 07:18:49","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-02 07:19:03","msg":"status: 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{\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 451.63, \"end\": 451.65, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 456.619, \"end\": 472.188, \"text\": \"剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生以醫療衛生來講的話不要講說我們的新住民其實我們的國人如果你沒有受過醫療訓練的話其實很多東西也是沒有辦法了解那也沒有辦法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 456.619, \"end\": 457.04, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 457.04, \"end\": 457.16, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 457.16, \"end\": 457.32, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 457.32, \"end\": 457.48, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 457.48, \"end\": 458.18, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"療\"}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 458.18, \"end\": 459.381, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 459.381, \"end\": 459.921, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"療\"}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 459.921, \"end\": 460.642, 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00:00:00,563\n謝謝主席,有請陳院長請陳院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:30,516 --> 00:00:53,142\n羅委員恭喜你當選連任然後祝你婦女節快樂謝謝院長,院長你也辛苦了今天是婦女節我也先祝在場的女士們婦女節快樂OK院長在上一屆本席就已經跟你探討過我國的這一個統一制度那本席除了跟院長探討之外也跟相關的\n\n3\n00:00:53,562 --> 00:01:22,257\n的單位也曾經做過很多次的溝通。去年我也開了這個公聽會來聽取專家學者的一些意見。當然在這裡我要特別感謝我們林萬一政委還有我們的內政部有邀集了相關的機關我們有來擬定了這個統一制度精進事辦計畫。而且這個計畫在今年的4月1號就要上路了。\n\n4\n00:01:22,517 --> 00:01:22,717\n﹚羅美玲\n\n5\n00:01:35,498 --> 00:02:03,709\n主責單位就是我們內政部移民署那移民署這邊呢有提出了這個四個面向那他針對這四個面向提出了檢討跟改善的這個目標那我們來先看哪四個面向第一個面向就是華語文程度那華語文程度過去除了現行的狀況除了說檢察署跟警察機關有明定需求跟測驗之外呢其他機關呢並沒有\n\n6\n00:02:05,069 --> 00:02:05,129\n拜訓本席\n\n7\n00:02:24,096 --> 00:02:40,585\n本席最重視的一部分那像培訓的課程過去呢課程都是大同小異而且呢課程的時數呢真的非常的少只有8到15個小時這個跟歐美的這個統一制度的培訓差很多歐美幾乎到100小時以上\n\n8\n00:02:40,925 --> 00:02:57,777\n好那現在呢我們全面提升培訓的時間至少要14個小時這個時數也讓我覺得無法接受那雖然說我們說改善可是時間培訓的這課程的時間真的還是讓人沒有辦法接受基礎課程6個小時專業課程至少8個小時\n\n9\n00:03:00,739 --> 00:03:29,315\n通譯的費用可能是讓通譯人員覺得比較安慰的地方,因為除了司法通譯與法務部來全責辦理之外,像其他的公共事務通譯,現行現況是每個小時平均是300塊,那現在我們提升到每個小時500塊,那夜間還有加倍的付費。那詞彙資料庫這個部分,我們現行的詞彙資料庫是以中英文對照為主。\n\n10\n00:03:29,955 --> 00:03:31,577\n新住民發展基金補助建置越南跟印尼\n\n11\n00:03:46,038 --> 00:03:46,238\n﹚羅美玲\n\n12\n00:04:20,506 --> 00:04:35,132\n我們來看一下現在我們的組別有分成五個組別司法同意警政業務醫療衛生還有就業服務跟移民輔導我跳一個跟院長有關係的醫療衛生好了好醫療衛生我們在這個計劃裡面總共呢有12個小時是專業課程的部分\n\n13\n00:04:41,394 --> 00:04:54,825\n院長你看,人體構造與基礎知識一個小時,就醫檢查與治療流程常用與訓練及演練兩個小時,內科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,外科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,後面零零總總全部加起來12個小時。\n\n14\n00:05:02,199 --> 00:05:18,486\n我們基礎6個小時再加上這個12個小時總共18個小時那他就要去考試經過考試之後呢他取得這個認證就可以來當同意人員院長可以想像的到嗎\n\n15\n00:05:20,406 --> 00:05:43,674\n經過18個小時他就要上場去做通譯那這些醫療用語院長我之前也跟你講過跟你提過就是說這些醫療用語都是非常非常的專業這個計劃裡面前前後後就十幾個小時他就必須上場然後呢必須跟我們的醫療專業人員當他們的翻譯有某個移工他去就診\n\n16\n00:05:44,957 --> 00:05:49,099\n這部分因為我不曉得這個詳細的課程的內容了。是我們連課程內容我們都搞不清楚嘛可是我們不要看內容兩個小時一個小時\n\n17\n00:06:11,448 --> 00:06:30,220\n那個時數就讓人家覺得無法接受欸就要看這一個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠如果他基本知識就需要再加強的時候當然這就有差啦就是說那個被訓的人如果本身是有醫療背景那當然就比較好一點\n\n18\n00:06:31,241 --> 00:06:49,089\n議員長跟您報告,這些去上課的受訓人員,絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。您會瞭解哦。您認為說新住民他們會講越南語也好,會講印尼語也好,真的有辦法去確確實實的去做這個專業名詞的這個……\n\n19\n00:06:53,462 --> 00:07:11,321\n翻譯嗎?真的有辦法嗎?像司法同意也是一樣,檢查業務簡介2個小時,法律嘗試3個小時,偵查程序該要3個小時,實務演練3個小時,他還有去給他演練3個小時。那通過考試,我想考試的內容絕對就是上課的內容了。\n\n20\n00:07:13,656 --> 00:07:31,650\n我想說在實務上面遇到的絕對是超過上課的內容。你用的名詞也好,你用的這些語言也好,也許跟母國都沒有關係。那也許它的知識是侷限在你所上課的內容,可是我在想在實務操作上面絕對遠遠超過這些內容。\n\n21\n00:07:36,619 --> 00:07:52,188\n剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生以醫療衛生來講的話不要講說我們的新住民其實我們的國人如果你沒有受過醫療訓練的話其實很多東西也是沒有辦法了解那也沒有辦法\n\n22\n00:07:52,828 --> 00:07:53,309\n實際上去操作。\n\n23\n00:08:10,589 --> 00:08:38,786\n所以這一些同意人員我們的建議當然就是說你如果是屬於醫療衛生的這一組的話就是固定在這一組因為你這樣才能夠﹖所以副長你是說邊學﹖邊做邊學的意思嗎本來就是這樣因為因為就是這樣萬一如果說翻譯錯誤的話不可能說把所有的都寫好了還在上證部長可能衛生醫療也許你覺得說可以邊做邊學嗎那我想請教司法同意呢\n\n24\n00:08:39,847 --> 00:08:46,090\n施法同意怎麼辦?為什麼我會取這個例子?\n\n25\n00:08:46,090 --> 00:08:56,515\n我跟各位講一個很真實的一個案例。在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工。\n\n26\n00:08:57,375 --> 00:09:24,633\n她剛來臺灣就被她的僱主猥褻,然後當然她要去投訴嘛,然後仲介公司呢,那個部長請回,好,部長請回,對,徐部長請回。那這個康護工呢就跟這個仲介公司來投訴,後來給他換了一個僱主,可是更糟糕。第二個僱主的居然就性侵了她。\n\n27\n00:09:26,890 --> 00:09:54,509\n這是真實的案例喔!這個菲律賓的家庭看護工當然他最後當然就是報案兩個案子他都報案的後來也走了司法程序可是呢最後判決出來是第一個案那個第一個雇主呢沒事第二個雇主呢這個性侵案也不成立所以這個菲律賓的這個家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受\n\n28\n00:09:55,939 --> 00:10:16,295\n這個菲律賓的康護公呢他不會中文也不會英語不是所有的菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語那當然判決書他看不懂他拜訴他不知道為什麼他就跟著他的朋友講說在我們的母國\n\n29\n00:10:17,677 --> 00:10:33,972\n近親派者是要被判刑的為什麼台灣不用到後來他找了人家來看了他的這個判決書他非常的崩潰裡面怎麼寫呢說他的說詞前後不一還說他是一個騙子\n\n30\n00:10:35,773 --> 00:11:01,588\n為什麼會前後不一?這跟什麼有關係?通譯的專業度有關係。法務部長可以去看一下,過去曾經有這個案子。他必須到警察局去做筆錄,然後有一個通譯。那他到檢察官證訊的時候,也有一位通譯。那到法院開庭的時候,也有通譯。都有通譯陪伴,可是通譯都不是同一位。\n\n31\n00:11:03,154 --> 00:11:28,450\n通譯都是不是同一位。說實在我們也知道說在司法判決的時候你的證詞有沒有前後一致這很重要那他說他前後都不一致可是這位受害者他說有啊我這個前後都是一致的啊為什麼不一致因為通譯翻的都不一樣通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣所以造成\n\n32\n00:11:29,471 --> 00:11:53,126\n最後呢,他居然是所有兩個案子都不成立,他是一個受害者。這是真實發生的事情。所以,本席覺得同意問題就是人權問題。我覺得到現在為止,臺灣,我們的中央政府好像對這個,同意,覺得就不過是一個翻譯而已。\n\n33\n00:11:55,575 --> 00:12:19,824\n而且我也覺得說這麼多年相同意的問題我們談論了很多很多年可是就是沒有一套就是沒有一個統一的認證制度專業的課程也沒有那我所看到的這個計畫隨隨便便就是就是幾個小時他就必須上場做翻譯了那再來還有讓我很失望的就是這個計畫主責單位竟然是移民署\n\n34\n00:12:21,684 --> 00:12:47,964\n移民署是一個三級的單位為什麼會是在移民署這麼重要的一個專業的這個通益制度居然是落在一個三級機關移民署我想移民署也很無奈沒有人沒有經費所以院長我想這個部分真的是要審慎來做思考真的審慎來做思考教育部的角色在哪裡國發會的角色在哪裡\n\n35\n00:12:49,838 --> 00:13:10,086\n我們現在只是說國教院齒會納入國教院裡面的磁庫那其他的呢?教育部沒有角色嗎?國發會沒有角色嗎?這是一個很重要的問題為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷的跟院長跟你討論我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境\n\n36\n00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:35,678\n再來還有我們現在因為移民署叫不動其他的部會所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理一樣下放到縣市政府各自去做辦理這培訓到現在為止還是一樣我們取得的這個資格認證的資格還是不一樣那要怎麼測驗你們各部會自己去認證吧\n\n37\n00:13:38,113 --> 00:13:39,954\n我上次就已經在說了請參考澳洲的這個機構\n\n38\n00:14:03,356 --> 00:14:31,984\n也就是說澳洲的國家犯例跟口譯認證機構。這個認證機構呢它是在1977年的時候設立的。那政府呢它這個在NATI成立以前澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫AUCIS它來規範這個培訓的課程。那等到這個AUCIS成熟之後輔導它成熟可以變成一個獨立運作機構之後呢才成立NATI。現在他們兩個的角色就是說AUCIS它就是一個培訓的機構\n\n39\n00:14:32,964 --> 00:15:00,265\nNATI它就是一個認證的機構所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位真的要認真看待臺灣的通營制度就是他們這整個過程都非常非常的嚴謹那我們臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待尤其是臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工\n\n40\n00:15:01,994 --> 00:15:18,134\n所以這個通譯制度真的完善制度真的非常非常的重要所以在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位話部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的通譯制度要如何走\n\n41\n00:15:19,039 --> 00:15:34,933\n院長還有一點時間讓你回覆一下我想上次您也提到這一個問題那我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進不過考慮這個澳洲的制度的可行性的話我們會請一位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n83\t563\t謝謝主席,有請陳院長請陳院長備詢\n30516\t53142\t羅委員恭喜你當選連任然後祝你婦女節快樂謝謝院長,院長你也辛苦了今天是婦女節我也先祝在場的女士們婦女節快樂OK院長在上一屆本席就已經跟你探討過我國的這一個統一制度那本席除了跟院長探討之外也跟相關的\n53562\t82257\t的單位也曾經做過很多次的溝通。去年我也開了這個公聽會來聽取專家學者的一些意見。當然在這裡我要特別感謝我們林萬一政委還有我們的內政部有邀集了相關的機關我們有來擬定了這個統一制度精進事辦計畫。而且這個計畫在今年的4月1號就要上路了。\n82517\t82717\t﹚羅美玲\n95498\t123709\t主責單位就是我們內政部移民署那移民署這邊呢有提出了這個四個面向那他針對這四個面向提出了檢討跟改善的這個目標那我們來先看哪四個面向第一個面向就是華語文程度那華語文程度過去除了現行的狀況除了說檢察署跟警察機關有明定需求跟測驗之外呢其他機關呢並沒有\n125069\t125129\t拜訓本席\n144096\t160585\t本席最重視的一部分那像培訓的課程過去呢課程都是大同小異而且呢課程的時數呢真的非常的少只有8到15個小時這個跟歐美的這個統一制度的培訓差很多歐美幾乎到100小時以上\n160925\t177777\t好那現在呢我們全面提升培訓的時間至少要14個小時這個時數也讓我覺得無法接受那雖然說我們說改善可是時間培訓的這課程的時間真的還是讓人沒有辦法接受基礎課程6個小時專業課程至少8個小時\n180739\t209315\t通譯的費用可能是讓通譯人員覺得比較安慰的地方,因為除了司法通譯與法務部來全責辦理之外,像其他的公共事務通譯,現行現況是每個小時平均是300塊,那現在我們提升到每個小時500塊,那夜間還有加倍的付費。那詞彙資料庫這個部分,我們現行的詞彙資料庫是以中英文對照為主。\n209955\t211577\t新住民發展基金補助建置越南跟印尼\n226038\t226238\t﹚羅美玲\n243968\t259957\t﹗\n260506\t275132\t我們來看一下現在我們的組別有分成五個組別司法同意警政業務醫療衛生還有就業服務跟移民輔導我跳一個跟院長有關係的醫療衛生好了好醫療衛生我們在這個計劃裡面總共呢有12個小時是專業課程的部分\n281394\t294825\t院長你看,人體構造與基礎知識一個小時,就醫檢查與治療流程常用與訓練及演練兩個小時,內科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,外科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,後面零零總總全部加起來12個小時。\n302199\t318486\t我們基礎6個小時再加上這個12個小時總共18個小時那他就要去考試經過考試之後呢他取得這個認證就可以來當同意人員院長可以想像的到嗎\n320406\t343674\t經過18個小時他就要上場去做通譯那這些醫療用語 院長我之前也跟你講過跟你提過就是說這些醫療用語都是非常非常的專業這個計劃裡面前前後後就十幾個小時他就必須上場然後呢必須跟我們的醫療專業人員當他們的翻譯有某個移工他去就診\n344957\t349099\t這部分因為我不曉得這個詳細的課程的內容了。 是我們連課程內容我們都搞不清楚嘛可是我們不要看內容兩個小時一個小時\n371448\t390220\t那個時數就讓人家覺得無法接受欸就要看這一個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠如果他基本知識就需要再加強的時候當然這就有差啦就是說那個被訓的人如果本身是有醫療背景那當然就比較好一點\n391241\t409089\t議員長跟您報告,這些去上課的受訓人員,絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。您會瞭解哦。您認為說新住民他們會講越南語也好,會講印尼語也好,真的有辦法去確確實實的去做這個專業名詞的這個……\n413462\t431321\t翻譯嗎?真的有辦法嗎?像司法同意也是一樣,檢查業務簡介2個小時,法律嘗試3個小時,偵查程序該要3個小時,實務演練3個小時,他還有去給他演練3個小時。那通過考試,我想考試的內容絕對就是上課的內容了。\n433656\t451650\t我想說在實務上面遇到的絕對是超過上課的內容。你用的名詞也好,你用的這些語言也好,也許跟母國都沒有關係。那也許它的知識是侷限在你所上課的內容,可是我在想在實務操作上面絕對遠遠超過這些內容。\n456619\t472188\t剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生以醫療衛生來講的話不要講說我們的新住民其實我們的國人如果你沒有受過醫療訓練的話其實很多東西也是沒有辦法了解那也沒有辦法\n472828\t473309\t實際上去操作。\n490589\t518786\t所以這一些同意人員我們的建議當然就是說你如果是屬於醫療衛生的這一組的話就是固定在這一組因為你這樣才能夠﹖所以副長你是說邊學﹖邊做邊學的意思嗎本來就是這樣因為 因為就是這樣萬一如果說翻譯錯誤的話不可能說把所有的都寫好了還在上證部長可能衛生醫療也許你覺得說可以邊做邊學嗎那我想請教司法同意呢\n519847\t526090\t施法同意怎麼辦?為什麼我會取這個例子?\n526090\t536515\t我跟各位講一個很真實的一個案例。 在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工。\n537375\t564633\t她剛來臺灣就被她的僱主猥褻,然後當然她要去投訴嘛,然後仲介公司呢,那個部長請回,好,部長請回,對,徐部長請回。那這個康護工呢就跟這個仲介公司來投訴,後來給他換了一個僱主,可是更糟糕。第二個僱主的居然就性侵了她。\n566890\t594509\t這是真實的案例喔!這個菲律賓的家庭看護工當然他最後當然就是報案兩個案子他都報案的後來也走了司法程序可是呢最後判決出來是第一個案那個第一個雇主呢沒事第二個雇主呢這個性侵案也不成立所以這個菲律賓的這個家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受\n595939\t616295\t這個菲律賓的康護公呢他不會中文也不會英語不是所有的菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語那當然判決書他看不懂他拜訴他不知道為什麼他就跟著他的朋友講說在我們的母國\n617677\t633972\t近親派者是要被判刑的為什麼台灣不用到後來他找了人家來看了他的這個判決書他非常的崩潰裡面怎麼寫呢說他的說詞前後不一還說他是一個騙子\n635773\t661588\t為什麼會前後不一?這跟什麼有關係?通譯的專業度有關係。法務部長可以去看一下,過去曾經有這個案子。他必須到警察局去做筆錄,然後有一個通譯。那他到檢察官證訊的時候,也有一位通譯。那到法院開庭的時候,也有通譯。都有通譯陪伴,可是通譯都不是同一位。\n663154\t688450\t通譯都是不是同一位。說實在我們也知道說在司法判決的時候你的證詞有沒有前後一致這很重要那他說他前後都不一致可是這位受害者他說有啊我這個前後都是一致的啊為什麼不一致因為通譯翻的都不一樣通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣所以造成\n689471\t713126\t最後呢,他居然是所有兩個案子都不成立,他是一個受害者。這是真實發生的事情。所以,本席覺得同意問題就是人權問題。我覺得到現在為止,臺灣,我們的中央政府好像對這個,同意,覺得就不過是一個翻譯而已。\n715575\t739824\t而且我也覺得說這麼多年相同意的問題我們談論了很多很多年可是就是沒有一套就是沒有一個統一的認證制度專業的課程也沒有那我所看到的這個計畫隨隨便便就是就是幾個小時他就必須上場做翻譯了那再來還有讓我很失望的就是這個計畫主責單位竟然是移民署\n741684\t767964\t移民署是一個三級的單位為什麼會是在移民署這麼重要的一個專業的這個通益制度居然是落在一個三級機關移民署我想移民署也很無奈沒有人沒有經費所以院長我想這個部分真的是要審慎來做思考真的審慎來做思考教育部的角色在哪裡國發會的角色在哪裡\n769838\t790086\t我們現在只是說國教院齒會納入國教院裡面的磁庫那其他的呢?教育部沒有角色嗎?國發會沒有角色嗎?這是一個很重要的問題為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷的跟院長跟你討論我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境\n792720\t815678\t再來還有我們現在因為移民署叫不動其他的部會所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理一樣下放到縣市政府各自去做辦理這培訓到現在為止還是一樣我們取得的這個資格認證的資格還是不一樣那要怎麼測驗你們各部會自己去認證吧\n818113\t819954\t我上次就已經在說了請參考澳洲的這個機構\n843356\t871984\t也就是說澳洲的國家犯例跟口譯認證機構。 這個認證機構呢它是在1977年的時候設立的。 那政府呢它這個在NATI成立以前澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫AUCIS它來規範這個培訓的課程。 那等到這個AUCIS成熟之後輔導它成熟可以變成一個獨立運作機構之後呢才成立NATI。 現在他們兩個的角色就是說AUCIS它就是一個培訓的機構\n872964\t900265\tNATI它就是一個認證的機構所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位真的要認真看待臺灣的通營制度就是他們這整個過程都非常非常的嚴謹那我們臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待尤其是臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工\n901994\t918134\t所以這個通譯制度真的 完善制度真的非常非常的重要所以在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位 話部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的通譯制度要如何走\n919039\t934933\t院長還有一點時間讓你回覆一下我想上次您也提到這一個問題那我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進不過考慮這個澳洲的制度的可行性的話我們會請一位\n952398\t952961\t謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請陳院長請陳院長備詢\n羅委員恭喜你當選連任然後祝你婦女節快樂謝謝院長,院長你也辛苦了今天是婦女節我也先祝在場的女士們婦女節快樂OK院長在上一屆本席就已經跟你探討過我國的這一個統一制度那本席除了跟院長探討之外也跟相關的\n的單位也曾經做過很多次的溝通。去年我也開了這個公聽會來聽取專家學者的一些意見。當然在這裡我要特別感謝我們林萬一政委還有我們的內政部有邀集了相關的機關我們有來擬定了這個統一制度精進事辦計畫。而且這個計畫在今年的4月1號就要上路了。\n﹚羅美玲\n主責單位就是我們內政部移民署那移民署這邊呢有提出了這個四個面向那他針對這四個面向提出了檢討跟改善的這個目標那我們來先看哪四個面向第一個面向就是華語文程度那華語文程度過去除了現行的狀況除了說檢察署跟警察機關有明定需求跟測驗之外呢其他機關呢並沒有\n拜訓本席\n本席最重視的一部分那像培訓的課程過去呢課程都是大同小異而且呢課程的時數呢真的非常的少只有8到15個小時這個跟歐美的這個統一制度的培訓差很多歐美幾乎到100小時以上\n好那現在呢我們全面提升培訓的時間至少要14個小時這個時數也讓我覺得無法接受那雖然說我們說改善可是時間培訓的這課程的時間真的還是讓人沒有辦法接受基礎課程6個小時專業課程至少8個小時\n通譯的費用可能是讓通譯人員覺得比較安慰的地方,因為除了司法通譯與法務部來全責辦理之外,像其他的公共事務通譯,現行現況是每個小時平均是300塊,那現在我們提升到每個小時500塊,那夜間還有加倍的付費。那詞彙資料庫這個部分,我們現行的詞彙資料庫是以中英文對照為主。\n新住民發展基金補助建置越南跟印尼\n﹚羅美玲\n﹗\n我們來看一下現在我們的組別有分成五個組別司法同意警政業務醫療衛生還有就業服務跟移民輔導我跳一個跟院長有關係的醫療衛生好了好醫療衛生我們在這個計劃裡面總共呢有12個小時是專業課程的部分\n院長你看,人體構造與基礎知識一個小時,就醫檢查與治療流程常用與訓練及演練兩個小時,內科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,外科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,後面零零總總全部加起來12個小時。\n我們基礎6個小時再加上這個12個小時總共18個小時那他就要去考試經過考試之後呢他取得這個認證就可以來當同意人員院長可以想像的到嗎\n經過18個小時他就要上場去做通譯那這些醫療用語 院長我之前也跟你講過跟你提過就是說這些醫療用語都是非常非常的專業這個計劃裡面前前後後就十幾個小時他就必須上場然後呢必須跟我們的醫療專業人員當他們的翻譯有某個移工他去就診\n這部分因為我不曉得這個詳細的課程的內容了。 是我們連課程內容我們都搞不清楚嘛可是我們不要看內容兩個小時一個小時\n那個時數就讓人家覺得無法接受欸就要看這一個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠如果他基本知識就需要再加強的時候當然這就有差啦就是說那個被訓的人如果本身是有醫療背景那當然就比較好一點\n議員長跟您報告,這些去上課的受訓人員,絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。您會瞭解哦。您認為說新住民他們會講越南語也好,會講印尼語也好,真的有辦法去確確實實的去做這個專業名詞的這個……\n翻譯嗎?真的有辦法嗎?像司法同意也是一樣,檢查業務簡介2個小時,法律嘗試3個小時,偵查程序該要3個小時,實務演練3個小時,他還有去給他演練3個小時。那通過考試,我想考試的內容絕對就是上課的內容了。\n我想說在實務上面遇到的絕對是超過上課的內容。你用的名詞也好,你用的這些語言也好,也許跟母國都沒有關係。那也許它的知識是侷限在你所上課的內容,可是我在想在實務操作上面絕對遠遠超過這些內容。\n剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生以醫療衛生來講的話不要講說我們的新住民其實我們的國人如果你沒有受過醫療訓練的話其實很多東西也是沒有辦法了解那也沒有辦法\n實際上去操作。\n所以這一些同意人員我們的建議當然就是說你如果是屬於醫療衛生的這一組的話就是固定在這一組因為你這樣才能夠﹖所以副長你是說邊學﹖邊做邊學的意思嗎本來就是這樣因為 因為就是這樣萬一如果說翻譯錯誤的話不可能說把所有的都寫好了還在上證部長可能衛生醫療也許你覺得說可以邊做邊學嗎那我想請教司法同意呢\n施法同意怎麼辦?為什麼我會取這個例子?\n我跟各位講一個很真實的一個案例。 在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工。\n她剛來臺灣就被她的僱主猥褻,然後當然她要去投訴嘛,然後仲介公司呢,那個部長請回,好,部長請回,對,徐部長請回。那這個康護工呢就跟這個仲介公司來投訴,後來給他換了一個僱主,可是更糟糕。第二個僱主的居然就性侵了她。\n這是真實的案例喔!這個菲律賓的家庭看護工當然他最後當然就是報案兩個案子他都報案的後來也走了司法程序可是呢最後判決出來是第一個案那個第一個雇主呢沒事第二個雇主呢這個性侵案也不成立所以這個菲律賓的這個家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受\n這個菲律賓的康護公呢他不會中文也不會英語不是所有的菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語那當然判決書他看不懂他拜訴他不知道為什麼他就跟著他的朋友講說在我們的母國\n近親派者是要被判刑的為什麼台灣不用到後來他找了人家來看了他的這個判決書他非常的崩潰裡面怎麼寫呢說他的說詞前後不一還說他是一個騙子\n為什麼會前後不一?這跟什麼有關係?通譯的專業度有關係。法務部長可以去看一下,過去曾經有這個案子。他必須到警察局去做筆錄,然後有一個通譯。那他到檢察官證訊的時候,也有一位通譯。那到法院開庭的時候,也有通譯。都有通譯陪伴,可是通譯都不是同一位。\n通譯都是不是同一位。說實在我們也知道說在司法判決的時候你的證詞有沒有前後一致這很重要那他說他前後都不一致可是這位受害者他說有啊我這個前後都是一致的啊為什麼不一致因為通譯翻的都不一樣通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣所以造成\n最後呢,他居然是所有兩個案子都不成立,他是一個受害者。這是真實發生的事情。所以,本席覺得同意問題就是人權問題。我覺得到現在為止,臺灣,我們的中央政府好像對這個,同意,覺得就不過是一個翻譯而已。\n而且我也覺得說這麼多年相同意的問題我們談論了很多很多年可是就是沒有一套就是沒有一個統一的認證制度專業的課程也沒有那我所看到的這個計畫隨隨便便就是就是幾個小時他就必須上場做翻譯了那再來還有讓我很失望的就是這個計畫主責單位竟然是移民署\n移民署是一個三級的單位為什麼會是在移民署這麼重要的一個專業的這個通益制度居然是落在一個三級機關移民署我想移民署也很無奈沒有人沒有經費所以院長我想這個部分真的是要審慎來做思考真的審慎來做思考教育部的角色在哪裡國發會的角色在哪裡\n我們現在只是說國教院齒會納入國教院裡面的磁庫那其他的呢?教育部沒有角色嗎?國發會沒有角色嗎?這是一個很重要的問題為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷的跟院長跟你討論我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境\n再來還有我們現在因為移民署叫不動其他的部會所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理一樣下放到縣市政府各自去做辦理這培訓到現在為止還是一樣我們取得的這個資格認證的資格還是不一樣那要怎麼測驗你們各部會自己去認證吧\n我上次就已經在說了請參考澳洲的這個機構\n也就是說澳洲的國家犯例跟口譯認證機構。 這個認證機構呢它是在1977年的時候設立的。 那政府呢它這個在NATI成立以前澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫AUCIS它來規範這個培訓的課程。 那等到這個AUCIS成熟之後輔導它成熟可以變成一個獨立運作機構之後呢才成立NATI。 現在他們兩個的角色就是說AUCIS它就是一個培訓的機構\nNATI它就是一個認證的機構所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位真的要認真看待臺灣的通營制度就是他們這整個過程都非常非常的嚴謹那我們臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待尤其是臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工\n所以這個通譯制度真的 完善制度真的非常非常的重要所以在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位 話部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的通譯制度要如何走\n院長還有一點時間讓你回覆一下我想上次您也提到這一個問題那我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進不過考慮這個澳洲的制度的可行性的話我們會請一位\n謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.083 --> 00:00.563\n謝謝主席,有請陳院長請陳院長備詢\n\n00:30.516 --> 00:53.142\n羅委員恭喜你當選連任然後祝你婦女節快樂謝謝院長,院長你也辛苦了今天是婦女節我也先祝在場的女士們婦女節快樂OK院長在上一屆本席就已經跟你探討過我國的這一個統一制度那本席除了跟院長探討之外也跟相關的\n\n00:53.562 --> 01:22.257\n的單位也曾經做過很多次的溝通。去年我也開了這個公聽會來聽取專家學者的一些意見。當然在這裡我要特別感謝我們林萬一政委還有我們的內政部有邀集了相關的機關我們有來擬定了這個統一制度精進事辦計畫。而且這個計畫在今年的4月1號就要上路了。\n\n01:22.517 --> 01:22.717\n﹚羅美玲\n\n01:35.498 --> 02:03.709\n主責單位就是我們內政部移民署那移民署這邊呢有提出了這個四個面向那他針對這四個面向提出了檢討跟改善的這個目標那我們來先看哪四個面向第一個面向就是華語文程度那華語文程度過去除了現行的狀況除了說檢察署跟警察機關有明定需求跟測驗之外呢其他機關呢並沒有\n\n02:05.069 --> 02:05.129\n拜訓本席\n\n02:24.096 --> 02:40.585\n本席最重視的一部分那像培訓的課程過去呢課程都是大同小異而且呢課程的時數呢真的非常的少只有8到15個小時這個跟歐美的這個統一制度的培訓差很多歐美幾乎到100小時以上\n\n02:40.925 --> 02:57.777\n好那現在呢我們全面提升培訓的時間至少要14個小時這個時數也讓我覺得無法接受那雖然說我們說改善可是時間培訓的這課程的時間真的還是讓人沒有辦法接受基礎課程6個小時專業課程至少8個小時\n\n03:00.739 --> 03:29.315\n通譯的費用可能是讓通譯人員覺得比較安慰的地方,因為除了司法通譯與法務部來全責辦理之外,像其他的公共事務通譯,現行現況是每個小時平均是300塊,那現在我們提升到每個小時500塊,那夜間還有加倍的付費。那詞彙資料庫這個部分,我們現行的詞彙資料庫是以中英文對照為主。\n\n03:29.955 --> 03:31.577\n新住民發展基金補助建置越南跟印尼\n\n03:46.038 --> 03:46.238\n﹚羅美玲\n\n04:20.506 --> 04:35.132\n我們來看一下現在我們的組別有分成五個組別司法同意警政業務醫療衛生還有就業服務跟移民輔導我跳一個跟院長有關係的醫療衛生好了好醫療衛生我們在這個計劃裡面總共呢有12個小時是專業課程的部分\n\n04:41.394 --> 04:54.825\n院長你看,人體構造與基礎知識一個小時,就醫檢查與治療流程常用與訓練及演練兩個小時,內科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,外科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,後面零零總總全部加起來12個小時。\n\n05:02.199 --> 05:18.486\n我們基礎6個小時再加上這個12個小時總共18個小時那他就要去考試經過考試之後呢他取得這個認證就可以來當同意人員院長可以想像的到嗎\n\n05:20.406 --> 05:43.674\n經過18個小時他就要上場去做通譯那這些醫療用語院長我之前也跟你講過跟你提過就是說這些醫療用語都是非常非常的專業這個計劃裡面前前後後就十幾個小時他就必須上場然後呢必須跟我們的醫療專業人員當他們的翻譯有某個移工他去就診\n\n05:44.957 --> 05:49.099\n這部分因為我不曉得這個詳細的課程的內容了。是我們連課程內容我們都搞不清楚嘛可是我們不要看內容兩個小時一個小時\n\n06:11.448 --> 06:30.220\n那個時數就讓人家覺得無法接受欸就要看這一個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠如果他基本知識就需要再加強的時候當然這就有差啦就是說那個被訓的人如果本身是有醫療背景那當然就比較好一點\n\n06:31.241 --> 06:49.089\n議員長跟您報告,這些去上課的受訓人員,絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。您會瞭解哦。您認為說新住民他們會講越南語也好,會講印尼語也好,真的有辦法去確確實實的去做這個專業名詞的這個……\n\n06:53.462 --> 07:11.321\n翻譯嗎?真的有辦法嗎?像司法同意也是一樣,檢查業務簡介2個小時,法律嘗試3個小時,偵查程序該要3個小時,實務演練3個小時,他還有去給他演練3個小時。那通過考試,我想考試的內容絕對就是上課的內容了。\n\n07:13.656 --> 07:31.650\n我想說在實務上面遇到的絕對是超過上課的內容。你用的名詞也好,你用的這些語言也好,也許跟母國都沒有關係。那也許它的知識是侷限在你所上課的內容,可是我在想在實務操作上面絕對遠遠超過這些內容。\n\n07:36.619 --> 07:52.188\n剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生以醫療衛生來講的話不要講說我們的新住民其實我們的國人如果你沒有受過醫療訓練的話其實很多東西也是沒有辦法了解那也沒有辦法\n\n07:52.828 --> 07:53.309\n實際上去操作。\n\n08:10.589 --> 08:38.786\n所以這一些同意人員我們的建議當然就是說你如果是屬於醫療衛生的這一組的話就是固定在這一組因為你這樣才能夠﹖所以副長你是說邊學﹖邊做邊學的意思嗎本來就是這樣因為因為就是這樣萬一如果說翻譯錯誤的話不可能說把所有的都寫好了還在上證部長可能衛生醫療也許你覺得說可以邊做邊學嗎那我想請教司法同意呢\n\n08:39.847 --> 08:46.090\n施法同意怎麼辦?為什麼我會取這個例子?\n\n08:46.090 --> 08:56.515\n我跟各位講一個很真實的一個案例。在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工。\n\n08:57.375 --> 09:24.633\n她剛來臺灣就被她的僱主猥褻,然後當然她要去投訴嘛,然後仲介公司呢,那個部長請回,好,部長請回,對,徐部長請回。那這個康護工呢就跟這個仲介公司來投訴,後來給他換了一個僱主,可是更糟糕。第二個僱主的居然就性侵了她。\n\n09:26.890 --> 09:54.509\n這是真實的案例喔!這個菲律賓的家庭看護工當然他最後當然就是報案兩個案子他都報案的後來也走了司法程序可是呢最後判決出來是第一個案那個第一個雇主呢沒事第二個雇主呢這個性侵案也不成立所以這個菲律賓的這個家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受\n\n09:55.939 --> 10:16.295\n這個菲律賓的康護公呢他不會中文也不會英語不是所有的菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語那當然判決書他看不懂他拜訴他不知道為什麼他就跟著他的朋友講說在我們的母國\n\n10:17.677 --> 10:33.972\n近親派者是要被判刑的為什麼台灣不用到後來他找了人家來看了他的這個判決書他非常的崩潰裡面怎麼寫呢說他的說詞前後不一還說他是一個騙子\n\n10:35.773 --> 11:01.588\n為什麼會前後不一?這跟什麼有關係?通譯的專業度有關係。法務部長可以去看一下,過去曾經有這個案子。他必須到警察局去做筆錄,然後有一個通譯。那他到檢察官證訊的時候,也有一位通譯。那到法院開庭的時候,也有通譯。都有通譯陪伴,可是通譯都不是同一位。\n\n11:03.154 --> 11:28.450\n通譯都是不是同一位。說實在我們也知道說在司法判決的時候你的證詞有沒有前後一致這很重要那他說他前後都不一致可是這位受害者他說有啊我這個前後都是一致的啊為什麼不一致因為通譯翻的都不一樣通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣所以造成\n\n11:29.471 --> 11:53.126\n最後呢,他居然是所有兩個案子都不成立,他是一個受害者。這是真實發生的事情。所以,本席覺得同意問題就是人權問題。我覺得到現在為止,臺灣,我們的中央政府好像對這個,同意,覺得就不過是一個翻譯而已。\n\n11:55.575 --> 12:19.824\n而且我也覺得說這麼多年相同意的問題我們談論了很多很多年可是就是沒有一套就是沒有一個統一的認證制度專業的課程也沒有那我所看到的這個計畫隨隨便便就是就是幾個小時他就必須上場做翻譯了那再來還有讓我很失望的就是這個計畫主責單位竟然是移民署\n\n12:21.684 --> 12:47.964\n移民署是一個三級的單位為什麼會是在移民署這麼重要的一個專業的這個通益制度居然是落在一個三級機關移民署我想移民署也很無奈沒有人沒有經費所以院長我想這個部分真的是要審慎來做思考真的審慎來做思考教育部的角色在哪裡國發會的角色在哪裡\n\n12:49.838 --> 13:10.086\n我們現在只是說國教院齒會納入國教院裡面的磁庫那其他的呢?教育部沒有角色嗎?國發會沒有角色嗎?這是一個很重要的問題為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷的跟院長跟你討論我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境\n\n13:12.720 --> 13:35.678\n再來還有我們現在因為移民署叫不動其他的部會所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理一樣下放到縣市政府各自去做辦理這培訓到現在為止還是一樣我們取得的這個資格認證的資格還是不一樣那要怎麼測驗你們各部會自己去認證吧\n\n13:38.113 --> 13:39.954\n我上次就已經在說了請參考澳洲的這個機構\n\n14:03.356 --> 14:31.984\n也就是說澳洲的國家犯例跟口譯認證機構。這個認證機構呢它是在1977年的時候設立的。那政府呢它這個在NATI成立以前澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫AUCIS它來規範這個培訓的課程。那等到這個AUCIS成熟之後輔導它成熟可以變成一個獨立運作機構之後呢才成立NATI。現在他們兩個的角色就是說AUCIS它就是一個培訓的機構\n\n14:32.964 --> 15:00.265\nNATI它就是一個認證的機構所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位真的要認真看待臺灣的通營制度就是他們這整個過程都非常非常的嚴謹那我們臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待尤其是臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工\n\n15:01.994 --> 15:18.134\n所以這個通譯制度真的完善制度真的非常非常的重要所以在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位話部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的通譯制度要如何走\n\n15:19.039 --> 15:34.933\n院長還有一點時間讓你回覆一下我想上次您也提到這一個問題那我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進不過考慮這個澳洲的制度的可行性的話我們會請一位\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.083,"end":0.563,"text":"謝謝主席,有請陳院長請陳院長備詢"},{"start":30.516,"end":53.142,"text":"羅委員恭喜你當選連任然後祝你婦女節快樂謝謝院長,院長你也辛苦了今天是婦女節我也先祝在場的女士們婦女節快樂OK院長在上一屆本席就已經跟你探討過我國的這一個統一制度那本席除了跟院長探討之外也跟相關的"},{"start":53.562,"end":82.257,"text":"的單位也曾經做過很多次的溝通。去年我也開了這個公聽會來聽取專家學者的一些意見。當然在這裡我要特別感謝我們林萬一政委還有我們的內政部有邀集了相關的機關我們有來擬定了這個統一制度精進事辦計畫。而且這個計畫在今年的4月1號就要上路了。"},{"start":82.517,"end":82.717,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":95.498,"end":123.709,"text":"主責單位就是我們內政部移民署那移民署這邊呢有提出了這個四個面向那他針對這四個面向提出了檢討跟改善的這個目標那我們來先看哪四個面向第一個面向就是華語文程度那華語文程度過去除了現行的狀況除了說檢察署跟警察機關有明定需求跟測驗之外呢其他機關呢並沒有"},{"start":125.069,"end":125.129,"text":"拜訓本席"},{"start":144.096,"end":160.585,"text":"本席最重視的一部分那像培訓的課程過去呢課程都是大同小異而且呢課程的時數呢真的非常的少只有8到15個小時這個跟歐美的這個統一制度的培訓差很多歐美幾乎到100小時以上"},{"start":160.925,"end":177.777,"text":"好那現在呢我們全面提升培訓的時間至少要14個小時這個時數也讓我覺得無法接受那雖然說我們說改善可是時間培訓的這課程的時間真的還是讓人沒有辦法接受基礎課程6個小時專業課程至少8個小時"},{"start":180.739,"end":209.315,"text":"通譯的費用可能是讓通譯人員覺得比較安慰的地方,因為除了司法通譯與法務部來全責辦理之外,像其他的公共事務通譯,現行現況是每個小時平均是300塊,那現在我們提升到每個小時500塊,那夜間還有加倍的付費。那詞彙資料庫這個部分,我們現行的詞彙資料庫是以中英文對照為主。"},{"start":209.955,"end":211.577,"text":"新住民發展基金補助建置越南跟印尼"},{"start":226.038,"end":226.238,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":243.968,"end":259.957,"text":"﹗"},{"start":260.506,"end":275.132,"text":"我們來看一下現在我們的組別有分成五個組別司法同意警政業務醫療衛生還有就業服務跟移民輔導我跳一個跟院長有關係的醫療衛生好了好醫療衛生我們在這個計劃裡面總共呢有12個小時是專業課程的部分"},{"start":281.394,"end":294.825,"text":"院長你看,人體構造與基礎知識一個小時,就醫檢查與治療流程常用與訓練及演練兩個小時,內科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,外科醫療常見用與訓練兩個小時,後面零零總總全部加起來12個小時。"},{"start":302.199,"end":318.486,"text":"我們基礎6個小時再加上這個12個小時總共18個小時那他就要去考試經過考試之後呢他取得這個認證就可以來當同意人員院長可以想像的到嗎"},{"start":320.406,"end":343.674,"text":"經過18個小時他就要上場去做通譯那這些醫療用語 院長我之前也跟你講過跟你提過就是說這些醫療用語都是非常非常的專業這個計劃裡面前前後後就十幾個小時他就必須上場然後呢必須跟我們的醫療專業人員當他們的翻譯有某個移工他去就診"},{"start":344.957,"end":349.099,"text":"這部分因為我不曉得這個詳細的課程的內容了。 是我們連課程內容我們都搞不清楚嘛可是我們不要看內容兩個小時一個小時"},{"start":371.448,"end":390.22,"text":"那個時數就讓人家覺得無法接受欸就要看這一個被訓練的人員他本身的基本知識夠不夠如果他基本知識就需要再加強的時候當然這就有差啦就是說那個被訓的人如果本身是有醫療背景那當然就比較好一點"},{"start":391.241,"end":409.089,"text":"議員長跟您報告,這些去上課的受訓人員,絕大部分都是嫁到臺灣來的新住民。您會瞭解哦。您認為說新住民他們會講越南語也好,會講印尼語也好,真的有辦法去確確實實的去做這個專業名詞的這個……"},{"start":413.462,"end":431.321,"text":"翻譯嗎?真的有辦法嗎?像司法同意也是一樣,檢查業務簡介2個小時,法律嘗試3個小時,偵查程序該要3個小時,實務演練3個小時,他還有去給他演練3個小時。那通過考試,我想考試的內容絕對就是上課的內容了。"},{"start":433.656,"end":451.65,"text":"我想說在實務上面遇到的絕對是超過上課的內容。你用的名詞也好,你用的這些語言也好,也許跟母國都沒有關係。那也許它的知識是侷限在你所上課的內容,可是我在想在實務操作上面絕對遠遠超過這些內容。"},{"start":456.619,"end":472.188,"text":"剛剛委員舉的例子是醫療衛生以醫療衛生來講的話不要講說我們的新住民其實我們的國人如果你沒有受過醫療訓練的話其實很多東西也是沒有辦法了解那也沒有辦法"},{"start":472.828,"end":473.309,"text":"實際上去操作。"},{"start":490.589,"end":518.786,"text":"所以這一些同意人員我們的建議當然就是說你如果是屬於醫療衛生的這一組的話就是固定在這一組因為你這樣才能夠﹖所以副長你是說邊學﹖邊做邊學的意思嗎本來就是這樣因為 因為就是這樣萬一如果說翻譯錯誤的話不可能說把所有的都寫好了還在上證部長可能衛生醫療也許你覺得說可以邊做邊學嗎那我想請教司法同意呢"},{"start":519.847,"end":526.09,"text":"施法同意怎麼辦?為什麼我會取這個例子?"},{"start":526.09,"end":536.515,"text":"我跟各位講一個很真實的一個案例。 在好幾年前有一位來自菲律賓的家庭看護工。"},{"start":537.375,"end":564.633,"text":"她剛來臺灣就被她的僱主猥褻,然後當然她要去投訴嘛,然後仲介公司呢,那個部長請回,好,部長請回,對,徐部長請回。那這個康護工呢就跟這個仲介公司來投訴,後來給他換了一個僱主,可是更糟糕。第二個僱主的居然就性侵了她。"},{"start":566.89,"end":594.509,"text":"這是真實的案例喔!這個菲律賓的家庭看護工當然他最後當然就是報案兩個案子他都報案的後來也走了司法程序可是呢最後判決出來是第一個案那個第一個雇主呢沒事第二個雇主呢這個性侵案也不成立所以這個菲律賓的這個家庭看護工覺得沒有辦法接受"},{"start":595.939,"end":616.295,"text":"這個菲律賓的康護公呢他不會中文也不會英語不是所有的菲律賓的外籍移工都會講英文他只會講菲律賓的泰加洛語那當然判決書他看不懂他拜訴他不知道為什麼他就跟著他的朋友講說在我們的母國"},{"start":617.677,"end":633.972,"text":"近親派者是要被判刑的為什麼台灣不用到後來他找了人家來看了他的這個判決書他非常的崩潰裡面怎麼寫呢說他的說詞前後不一還說他是一個騙子"},{"start":635.773,"end":661.588,"text":"為什麼會前後不一?這跟什麼有關係?通譯的專業度有關係。法務部長可以去看一下,過去曾經有這個案子。他必須到警察局去做筆錄,然後有一個通譯。那他到檢察官證訊的時候,也有一位通譯。那到法院開庭的時候,也有通譯。都有通譯陪伴,可是通譯都不是同一位。"},{"start":663.154,"end":688.45,"text":"通譯都是不是同一位。說實在我們也知道說在司法判決的時候你的證詞有沒有前後一致這很重要那他說他前後都不一致可是這位受害者他說有啊我這個前後都是一致的啊為什麼不一致因為通譯翻的都不一樣通譯翻出來的內容都不一樣所以造成"},{"start":689.471,"end":713.126,"text":"最後呢,他居然是所有兩個案子都不成立,他是一個受害者。這是真實發生的事情。所以,本席覺得同意問題就是人權問題。我覺得到現在為止,臺灣,我們的中央政府好像對這個,同意,覺得就不過是一個翻譯而已。"},{"start":715.575,"end":739.824,"text":"而且我也覺得說這麼多年相同意的問題我們談論了很多很多年可是就是沒有一套就是沒有一個統一的認證制度專業的課程也沒有那我所看到的這個計畫隨隨便便就是就是幾個小時他就必須上場做翻譯了那再來還有讓我很失望的就是這個計畫主責單位竟然是移民署"},{"start":741.684,"end":767.964,"text":"移民署是一個三級的單位為什麼會是在移民署這麼重要的一個專業的這個通益制度居然是落在一個三級機關移民署我想移民署也很無奈沒有人沒有經費所以院長我想這個部分真的是要審慎來做思考真的審慎來做思考教育部的角色在哪裡國發會的角色在哪裡"},{"start":769.838,"end":790.086,"text":"我們現在只是說國教院齒會納入國教院裡面的磁庫那其他的呢?教育部沒有角色嗎?國發會沒有角色嗎?這是一個很重要的問題為什麼從上一屆到現在我會不斷的跟院長跟你討論我們的通譯制度真的真的有很大的困境"},{"start":792.72,"end":815.678,"text":"再來還有我們現在因為移民署叫不動其他的部會所以一樣還是下放到各部會各自辦理一樣下放到縣市政府各自去做辦理這培訓到現在為止還是一樣我們取得的這個資格認證的資格還是不一樣那要怎麼測驗你們各部會自己去認證吧"},{"start":818.113,"end":819.954,"text":"我上次就已經在說了請參考澳洲的這個機構"},{"start":843.356,"end":871.984,"text":"也就是說澳洲的國家犯例跟口譯認證機構。 這個認證機構呢它是在1977年的時候設立的。 那政府呢它這個在NATI成立以前澳洲政府是先輔導民間成立一個專業通譯協會叫AUCIS它來規範這個培訓的課程。 那等到這個AUCIS成熟之後輔導它成熟可以變成一個獨立運作機構之後呢才成立NATI。 現在他們兩個的角色就是說AUCIS它就是一個培訓的機構"},{"start":872.964,"end":900.265,"text":"NATI它就是一個認證的機構所以我在這裡真的要拜託我們行政單位真的要認真看待臺灣的通營制度就是他們這整個過程都非常非常的嚴謹那我們臺灣什麼時候才能夠認真來看待尤其是臺灣的外來人口越來越多的狀況之下再來我們馬上也要引進印度的移工"},{"start":901.994,"end":918.134,"text":"所以這個通譯制度真的 完善制度真的非常非常的重要所以在這裡真的要拜託我們各個單位 話部會來討論一下未來我們臺灣的通譯制度要如何走"},{"start":919.039,"end":934.933,"text":"院長還有一點時間讓你回覆一下我想上次您也提到這一個問題那我們雖然有移民署在做相關的精進不過考慮這個澳洲的制度的可行性的話我們會請一位"},{"start":952.398,"end":952.961,"text":"謝謝"}]}}}}