{"id":149614,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43005dc254e5e0f2cf48af4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a616680b52cefca5135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:15:36 - 09:28:16","影片長度":"00:12:40","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":760,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:28:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:15:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":68,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時15分）謝謝主席，有請局長。"],["主席：請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，沈委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：局長早。感謝主席安排這一個題目，這個題目其實非常的困難，今天局長在報告裡面特別提到的除了美國選舉之外，也有包含中國的反間諜法，所以我今天可能比較多會圍繞在我們對於反間諜法這方面的因應來做討論。","首先我想先從中國的侵臺手段開始，我們現在面臨的就是過往文獻大致上都喜歡提到的這三點，第一個當然就是我們現在面臨的這些共機擾臺等等軍事上的措施；然後是所謂統戰措施，這個局長一定特別的熟悉，就是用利益獲取等等之類的這些或者是用經濟的方式對臺灣做出脅迫；最後一個當然就是我們更熟悉的所謂認知作戰的操作。第一個我想問的是，在我們過往的研究當中就會發現，尤其是後面兩個，也就是統戰跟輿論操作這兩個，在疫情的時候因為統戰變得比較少，尤其在2023年之前，那個時候中國的輿論操作變得比較多，所以也就是說後兩者有一個此消彼長的關係啦，我想問局長，因為我們等一下會討論美國大選，在這個整體的情勢之下，我們再看中國的手段，因為它畢竟是一個整體的預算嘛，這三者之間對局長來講有沒有一個比較此消彼長的關係？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，事實上中共對臺灣的複合式威脅手法是多管齊下的對臺灣進行各種施壓，這部分的操作包括到所謂的政治滲透，也是委員目前在關切的重點。另外還有包括經濟的脅迫、軍事的恫嚇、資安的攻擊以及認知作戰的操作，所以中國在這一方面的資源分配是會透過政府各個部員來投注相關的資源。相關的資源挹注，委員應該也有注意到，在今年的兩會，他們還有特別投入到1兆的特別預算，我們也在注意這1兆的特別預算除了放在所謂中國要特別發展的新質生產力以外，有沒有移到國安部門的操作，這也是我們後續要觀察的重點。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝局長。因為這次主席安排的這個題目最主要是跟美國及中國有關嘛，所以我們就一直在想說，如果我們今天要去看對我們國內的影響，到底美國的影響會是在這三個的哪一個？其中第一個我們能夠看到的就是像這樣的一個圖，這是共機擾臺的數量，我們看到這個數量其實有高有低啦，這個有高有低到底是跟我們國內比較有關係還是跟國際有關係？如果我們把其他的這些事件予以重疊之後會發現，這跟歐洲議員、美國議員訪臺其實都有高度相關嘛，根據我們之前的計算，一個議員大概就是值10架飛機左右啦！也就是說，美國的所作所為、它的行為很明顯的會影響到我們剛剛前面這一頁提到最左邊的「軍事的騷擾」，現在大選來到了，因為各候選人有可能會對臺灣的議題或者中國的議題來發言，這一個發言會影響到軍事以外的部分，局長的判斷對於後兩者的影響大概有多大？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想中共對臺灣的各種軍事施壓的動作，現在有一個趨勢就是慢慢朝向常態化來發展，特別剛剛委員也提到了所謂的聯合戰備警巡，現在聯合戰備警巡的頻次，平均大概7天到10天就會有一次的聯合戰備警巡，這種所謂聯合戰備警巡的數量也像剛剛委員所指出來的，大概都有10架的中共戰機、戰轟機或是特種機，會到臺海周邊的空域來活動，同時搭配有三到四艘的共艦會在周邊有相關的活動，所以這是有一種常態化的趨勢。當然，這也涉及到臺灣跟外國往來的一些頻密的層次有關係，所以每每我們可以發現到，當友我國家的國會通過了友臺的議案，或是剛好有外艦巡弋臺海周邊的水域，或是剛好有外國的政要到臺灣來訪問，中國也會搭配它現有的這種常態化的戰備警巡，配合這些外交事件來做一些操作。這個操作的重點可能除了有武力的恫嚇以外，也會配合到認知作戰及爭議訊息的散布，主要目的就是希望臺灣的輿論在看待相關中共的武力恫嚇的過程當中，能夠讓臺灣社會有不同的、分化的意見，達到其認知作戰的效果。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝局長的分析，剛剛有提到1兆的預算，這個預算本身的分配當然最主要可能跟後兩者比較有關係，不是純軍事的，但是因為對中國來講，統戰畢竟是比較花錢的事情，操作輿論或者說其他的一些手段對它來講是低成本，尤其是這次金門海域的事件，我們可以看到他們不斷地想要去擴張他們的執法權嘛，所以我在這邊稍微整理了一下從2014年起的相關法律，因為報告裡面有提到反間諜法，14開始有反間諜法，23又再做一次修正，中間有國家安全法、網路安全法、密碼法、數據安全法等等，我就不一一說了，在兩會的時候，其實他們又有提到跟反間諜法的一些相關發言。所以通過法律對他們來講並不是一個高成本的事情，這個是法律本身，以執法來講呢，我們遇到了李明哲的事件嘛，在微信上面寫個中國要如何民主就被抓了，還有海外設置秘密警察局，一直到我們現在的金門事件。所以這些執法權的擴張對他們來講算是一個比較低成本的行動，也因此我就一直在想，對於這整體的分析情勢來講，我們剛剛提到的是後兩者，也就是統戰跟資訊操作，看起來好像會有一些預算上的擠壓關係，譬如說統戰的預算稍微少一點的時候，輿論的操作有時候看起來會更多，而我們現在看到的反而是前面兩個的互相關係，也就是在軍事層面會去搭配管轄權的擴張，不管是他們上初日號做登檢，又或者說他們現在不承認我們的中線、不承認禁止跟限制的海域。所以我就一直在想，如果說前兩者有一點預算上的關係，後兩者也有預算上的關係的話，現在對於這個司法權的擴張，我們的應對措施跟方案會是什麼？以局裡面的角度來講。"],["蔡局長明彥：我想委員很正確的指出來，就我們在觀察中共的國安法制，這幾年確實有非常嚴密的布建。除了剛剛委員在螢幕上所顯示的這些新的國安法制以外，在這次的兩會過程當中特別要注意到的是，他們有可能會在今年5月1號開始實施所謂的保守國家秘密法的新修正版本。一般我們在觀察中共的相關國安法制，在通過之後，我們還會看細部的執行狀況，因為一般在中央通過了相關的國安法制之後，地方政府還會再提出他們的施行作業要點跟細則，所以我們都會去觀察到在中央政府的法令頒布之後，各個地方對於兩岸的交流有沒有一些所謂的司法管轄或是留置詢問等相關的作法。當然，也有特別注意到有幾個城市在這一方面似乎做得特別積極，所以這個部分我們會繼續的來注意中共在法律戰上的操作。我也利用這個機會就國安局的角度來講，怎麼樣適度揭露相關中共的作法以及提醒國人到對岸不管是經商、求學、活動、旅遊過程的風險性等，我想對於這一方面的事情，我們必須要不斷地來提醒民眾。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝局長，因為剛剛局長提到一個非常重要的點，就是交流活動這件事。因為交流活動在這個圖裡面最主要就是右邊第二個的「統戰」部分，本來對我們來講，司法權的一些擴張、執法的擴張及管轄權的擴張，看起來比較像是他們剛剛制定的這些法律，或者說它在海上，目前是在金門附近的執法所達成的一個效果，但其實中間這兩個──司法權跟統戰其實有很高度的疊合。以局長的經驗來講可能應該知道，目前來講，依照這一些法律被逮捕的人有時候反而都是在統戰網絡裡面的人，也就是說，因為對中國來講，他們有需要很多的KPI，在逮捕這些人的時候，它要找人的時候反而會找到比較跟中國親近的人，所以有時候我們反而會看到是親中的人比較容易被逮捕。我們在這邊可以看到中研院社會所畫的一個統戰脈絡，其實可以看到這個統戰脈絡已經伸得非常的深，我現在比較有疑慮的事情就是，其實國人對於赴中可能會有一定風險是可能會有認知的，但他不一定知道自己在統戰脈絡裡面，因為統戰脈絡本身並不是一個不公開的資訊，以這個圖來講，它只是根據了目前現有的官媒，因為官媒會做KPI嘛，所以臺灣有哪些組織或個人跟中國有所接觸的話，就可以形成這樣的一個網絡圖。我們也知道其實微信公眾號裡面也有非常多這樣的KPI，局長，不知道就我們目前的工作來講，有沒有機會去擴張這樣一個圖像，然後讓國人知道說到底是不是處於危險當中？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，目前國人到對岸有遭受到關押、拘禁來審判的大概有11個案子，另外在通過海關遭到留置詢問的大概有29個案子。我們也像委員所提到的，針對這些個案遭到偵訊或關押臺灣民眾的背景到底有哪些的組成也做了一些分析，主要包括相關的民間社團或是黨政人士、學界人士，甚至還有陸配，在整個往來過程當中確實都有遭到中共的鎖定。我們手上的案例數據應該比實際的來得少，因為我們的案例主要都是有當事人的通報或是隨團當事人、其他團員的通報，我們才會掌握這些數據，還有很多在兩岸交流過程當中遭到中共海關當局或國安當局詢問的其他案例，我們會積極來蒐集，以便能夠有一個更完整的圖像，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["沈委員伯洋：局長剛剛提到的比較算是個案，就是他已經被留置或者是可能被審訊等等之類的狀況，而我們剛剛在想的事情比較像是把有風險的個體跟團體都先盤點出來，因為先盤點出來，先給予警告可能會是一個更好的作法。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為以這次的禁團令來講好了，很多的業者對於跟中國交涉的風險可能有認知，但他可能對於剛剛講的中國這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的，也就是說，風險可能比他想像中的還要更大，但他卻不知嘛，再加上我們臺灣會有各式各樣的反制手段，這個反制手段也會影響到國人嘛，所以國人對這件事情風險的認知也很希望就是由國安單位能夠提供，不管是給陸委會或經濟部，讓國人能夠知道這樣的一個風險。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，這個我們來努力，謝謝委員提醒。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以這個就是關於剛剛提到的，譬如說學術交流可能就會被抓、拍攝港口的畫面也會被逮捕、跟在中國大陸的外國機構密切交往也會被逮捕，所以這方面就是剛剛所說的，希望能夠提出一個比較像類型化的方式讓國人知道。但是反過來講，我覺得一個比較有危險的地方就是在於我們現在對於中配入籍可能也是有一些爭議，非常重要的事情就是在沒有放棄中國籍之前，反過來講，他們也能夠在這邊，必須符合他們的法律框架的情報法在臺灣來蒐集情報跟資訊，所以就這一點，不知道局長有沒有什麼需要跟國人說明的地方？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想中配、陸配入籍的年限的討論，我們尊重各界的意見，它主要在政策面向涉及到的有我們的兩岸政策跟相關的移民政策，這歸陸委會及內政部的業管，相關的討論我們都非常的尊重，就國安局的角度來講，我們比較重視的倒不是它的年限的調整，而是中共有沒有可能透過特定的陸配或陸配團體來臺灣進行相關的布建，或是在地協力者團體的培養，以及有沒有透過一些交流的活動……正常的交流活動我們都非常地尊重，但是假如有違、異常的現象，幫中共達到一些政治目的交流的話，我們也會蒐集相關的資訊，有具體的事證也會送給司法單位偵辦。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝局長、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請羅美玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"id":"149614","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149614","tool":"pyannote","id":"149614-pyannote"},"job_id":"MQmhKljUaG3kzcZ3","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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07:11:15","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 07:13:17","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149614 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-06-02 07:13:17","msg":"running whisperx with  --language zh --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）\n發言委員：沈伯洋'"},{"time":"2024-06-02 07:13:41","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-06-02 07:13:41","msg":"status: done"}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 0.029, \"end\": 4.031, \"text\": \"謝謝主席,那有請這個局長,謝謝請局長好,謝謝主席,沈委員早好,委員早那這個,感謝這個主席安排這一個題目這個題目其實非常的困難那這個,今天我最主要的因為在這個報告書裡面有特別提到除了這一個美國選舉之外有包含中國的這個反間諜法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 0.029, \"end\": 0.049, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 0.049, \"end\": 0.089, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 0.089, \"end\": 0.169, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 0.169, \"end\": 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657.993, \"text\": \"因為先盤點出來先給予警告可能會是一個更好的做法因為像以這次的這個比如說禁團令來講好了很多的業者對於跟中國這個交涉的一個風險他可能有認知但他可能對於中國的剛剛講的這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的也就是說風險可能比他想像中的還要更大但他卻不知那再加上我們台灣會有各式各樣的反制手段那這個反制手段也會影響到國人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 634.055, \"end\": 634.075, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 634.075, \"end\": 634.496, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 634.496, \"end\": 634.776, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 634.776, \"end\": 635.096, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"予\", \"start\": 635.096, \"end\": 635.236, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 635.236, \"end\": 635.436, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 635.436, \"end\": 635.616, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 635.616, \"end\": 635.716, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 635.716, \"end\": 635.957, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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{\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 735.806, \"end\": 735.946, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 735.946, \"end\": 735.966, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 735.966, \"end\": 735.986, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,029 --> 00:00:04,031\n謝謝主席,那有請這個局長,謝謝請局長好,謝謝主席,沈委員早好,委員早那這個,感謝這個主席安排這一個題目這個題目其實非常的困難那這個,今天我最主要的因為在這個報告書裡面有特別提到除了這一個美國選舉之外有包含中國的這個反間諜法\n\n2\n00:00:28,285 --> 00:00:28,325\n《反間諜法》\n\n3\n00:00:44,509 --> 00:00:44,669\n沈伯洋\n\n4\n00:01:01,969 --> 00:01:25,995\n那第一個呢我就想問就是說在我們過往的這一個研究當中就會發現尤其是後面兩個就是統戰跟這個輿論操作這兩個在疫情的時候因為統戰變得比較少尤其在2023之前那那個時候呢中國的輿論操作是變得比較多的所以就是說後兩者有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係那我想問這個局裡面就是說因為我們等一下會討論這一個美國大選\n\n5\n00:01:28,355 --> 00:01:37,721\n在這個整體的情勢之下我們再看中國的手段中間因為它畢竟是一個整體的預算那這三者之間對局長來講有沒有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係\n\n6\n00:01:39,193 --> 00:02:00,108\n對,事實上中共對台灣的一個複合式威脅的一個手法它是多管齊下來對台灣進行各種的施壓那這部分的一個操作包括到有所謂的政治的滲透也是我目前在關切的重點另外還有包括經濟的脅迫、軍事的恫嚇、治安的攻擊以及政治作戰的操作所以中國在這方面的資源分配它會透過政府各個部員來投資相關的資源\n\n7\n00:02:01,789 --> 00:02:20,382\n那相關的一個支援的益助應該委員也有注意到在今年兩會他們還有特別投入到一兆的特別預算那我們也在注意這一兆的特別預算除了有放在所謂中國要特別發展的薪資的這種生產力以外有沒有移到國安部門的操作那這也是我們後續要觀察的重點\n\n8\n00:02:21,087 --> 00:02:40,575\n好謝謝局長那這一個就是因為這次主席安排的這一個題目最主要是跟美國跟中國有關所以那我們就一直在想說就是如果我們今天要去看對我們國內的影響到底美國的影響會是在這三個的哪一個那其中第一個呢我們能夠看到的就是像這樣的一個圖這是這個共濟老台的這一個數量\n\n9\n00:02:41,775 --> 00:02:41,915\n沈伯洋\n\n10\n00:03:01,895 --> 00:03:22,937\n所以就是說美國的所作所為他的行為呢很明顯的會影響到就是我們剛剛前面這一頁提到的最左邊這一個軍事那現在大選來到呢因為各候選人有可能會對這一個台灣的議題或者中國的議題來發言那這一個發言呢會影響到軍事以外呢局長的判斷對於候兩者的影響大概有多大\n\n11\n00:03:23,496 --> 00:03:37,452\n對我想中共對台灣的各種的軍事施壓的動作他現在有個趨勢就是慢慢朝向常態化的發展那特別剛剛委員也提到了所謂的聯合戰備警巡那現在大概聯合戰備警巡的頻次\n\n12\n00:03:38,513 --> 00:03:38,913\n臺灣跟外國往來的一些\n\n13\n00:04:06,885 --> 00:04:31,745\n所以每每我們可以發現到當有我的國家的國會通過了友台的議案或是剛好有外艦巡弋台海周邊的水域或是有剛好有外國的政要帶我台灣來訪問中國也會搭配到他現有這種常態化的戰備警訊配合到這些外交事件來做一些操作那這個操作重點可能除了有武力的一個東赫以外也會配合到認知作戰還有正義訊息的散步\n\n14\n00:04:32,285 --> 00:04:53,057\n主要目的就是希望台灣的輿論在看待相關中共的武力動惑過程當中能夠讓台灣社會有不同的分化的一個意見那達到他任志作戰的一個效果好謝謝局長的這個分析那剛剛有提到這一個一兆的這個預算那這個預算的本身的分配呢當然最主要可能跟後兩者比較有關係他不是純軍事的但是因為對中國來講因為統戰畢竟是比較花錢的事情\n\n15\n00:04:55,999 --> 00:05:22,629\n那操作輿論或者說其他的一些手段對他來講是低成本所以尤其是在這次的金門海域的事件我們可以看到他們不斷地想要去擴張他們的執法權所以我在這邊稍微整理了一下就是從2014因為報告裡面有提到反間諜法那14開始有反間諜法23又再做一次修正那中間有這個國家安全法這個網路安全、密碼、數據安全我就不一一說了那兩會的時候其實他們又有提到這一個跟反間諜法的一些相關的發言\n\n16\n00:05:24,210 --> 00:05:44,596\n所以說其實通過法律對他們來講並不是一個高成本的事情那這個是法律本身那以執法來講呢我們遇到了這個李明哲的事件這個在微信上面寫的這個中國要如何民主就被抓了還有這個海外設置這個秘密警察局一直到我們現在金門所以呢這些一些執法權的一些擴張對他們來講算是一個比較低成本的行動\n\n17\n00:05:45,436 --> 00:06:02,472\n也因此呢我就一直在想說我們對於這整體的一個分析的這一個情勢來講我們剛剛提到的是後兩者就是統戰跟資訊操作看起來好像會有一些預算上的擠壓的這個關係比如說這個統戰的預算稍微少一點的時候輿論的操作有時候看起來會更多\n\n18\n00:06:03,092 --> 00:06:19,923\n那我們現在看到的反而是前面兩個互相的關係就是在軍事層面他會去搭配這個管轄權的擴張不管是他們上初日還有做這個登檢又或者說他們現在不承認我們的中線不承認這個禁止跟限制的海域所以我就一直在想說\n\n19\n00:06:20,623 --> 00:06:33,248\n如果說前兩者這個有一點這個預算上的關係後兩者有預算上的關係的話那我們現在對於這一個司法權的擴張他我們的應對的措施跟方案會是什麼以局裡面的角度來講\n\n20\n00:06:34,022 --> 00:06:54,805\n好,我想委員很正確的指出來就我們在觀察中共的國安的法制這幾年確實有非常嚴密的部件那除了剛剛委員在螢幕上所顯示的這些新的國安法制以外在這次的兩會過程當中可以特別要注意到的他們有可能會在今年5月1號開始實施所謂的保守國家秘密法的新的修正的版本\n\n21\n00:06:55,225 --> 00:07:24,024\n那一般我們在觀察中共的相關國安法制在通過之後我們還會看他細部的執行的狀況因為一般在中央通過了相關的國安法制之後地方政府還會再提出他們的施行作業的要點跟細則那所以我們都會去觀察到在中央政府的法令頒布之後各個地方對於兩岸的交流有沒有一些所謂的這種司法管轄或是留置詢問相關的一個做法那當然也有特別注意到有幾個城市這一方面似乎做得特別積極\n\n22\n00:07:24,744 --> 00:07:45,816\n所以這個部分我們會繼續的來注意中共在法律戰的一個操作那這個部分我們想也利用這個機會就官局的角度來講怎麼樣來適度來揭露相關中共的做法以及提醒國人到對岸不管是經商、求學、活動、旅遊、過程的風險性我想這一方面的事件我們必須要不斷的來提醒民眾\n\n23\n00:07:46,687 --> 00:08:12,766\n那感謝局長因為剛剛局長提到一個非常重要的點就是交流活動這件事因為交流活動在這個圖裡面最主要就是右邊第二個這個統戰的部分那本來對我們來講司法權的一些擴張執法的擴張管轄權的擴張看起來比較像是他們剛剛制定的這些法律或者說他在海上面目前是在金門附近的執法所達成的一個效果但其實中間這兩個司法權跟統戰其實有很高度的疊合因為以局長的經驗來講你可能應該知道\n\n24\n00:08:14,767 --> 00:08:33,621\n目前來講會依照這些法律被逮捕的人有時候反而都是在統戰網絡裡面的人也就是說因為對中國來講他們有需要很多的KPI那在逮捕這些人的時候呢他要找人的時候反而會找到比較跟中國親近的人所以有時候我們會反而看到是親中的人比較容易被逮捕\n\n25\n00:08:34,581 --> 00:09:03,320\n所以我們在這邊可以看到這個是中原院社會所畫的統戰脈絡其實可以看到這個統戰的脈絡已經深得非常的深我現在比較有疑慮的事情就是其實國人對於附中可能會有一定的風險是可能會有認知的他不一定知道自己在統戰的脈絡裡面因為統戰的脈絡本身並不是一個不公開的資訊像以這個圖來講它只是根據了目前現有的官媒因為官媒會做KPI\n\n26\n00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:23,333\n所以台灣的有哪些組織或個人跟中國有所接觸的話呢他就可以形成這樣的一個網絡圖那我們也知道其實微信公眾號裡面也有非常多這樣的一個KPI所以不知道以局長的這個我們目前的工作來講有沒有機會呢去擴張這樣的一個圖像然後讓國人知道說到底是不是處於危險當中\n\n27\n00:09:24,481 --> 00:09:49,453\n對,目前國安道對岸有遭受到關押、拘禁來審判的大概有11個案子那另外在通過海關遭到留置詢問的大概有29個案子那我們也像委員所提到的,針對這些個案遭到偵訊或關押台灣民眾的背景到底有哪些的組成也做一些分析那主要大概包括的有相關的這種民間的社團\n\n28\n00:09:50,293 --> 00:09:51,154\n沈伯洋沈伯洋\n\n29\n00:10:11,425 --> 00:10:15,187\n對,那局長剛剛提到的比較就是個案就是說他已經因為被留置或者說可能被審訊等等這些的狀況那我們剛剛在想的事情比較像是說把有風險的個體跟團體都先盤點出來\n\n30\n00:10:34,055 --> 00:10:57,993\n因為先盤點出來先給予警告可能會是一個更好的做法因為像以這次的這個比如說禁團令來講好了很多的業者對於跟中國這個交涉的一個風險他可能有認知但他可能對於中國的剛剛講的這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的也就是說風險可能比他想像中的還要更大但他卻不知那再加上我們台灣會有各式各樣的反制手段那這個反制手段也會影響到國人\n\n31\n00:10:59,634 --> 00:11:20,855\n所以這個國人對這件事情風險的認知也很希望就是由國安單位能夠提供不管是給陸委會或經濟部讓國人能夠知道這樣的一個風險好這我們來努力謝謝委員提醒好謝謝所以這個就是關於剛剛提到的比如說這個學術交流可能就會被抓拍攝港口的畫面也會被逮捕中國大陸這一個外國機構的密切交往也會被逮捕\n\n32\n00:11:21,716 --> 00:11:50,693\n這方面就是剛剛所說的希望能夠提出這樣的一個比較像類型化的一個方式讓國人知道但是反過來講我覺得一個比較有危險的地方就是在於說我們現在對於這一個中配入籍可能也是有一些爭議那非常重要的事情就是在沒有放棄中國籍之前反過來講他們也能夠在這邊必須符合他們的法律框架的情報法在台灣來蒐集情報跟資訊所以就這一點不知道局長有沒有什麼需要跟國人說明的地方\n\n33\n00:11:51,001 --> 00:12:14,866\n我想中配陸配入籍的一個年限的討論我們尊重各界的一個意見那它主要在政策面向涉及到的有我們的兩岸政策跟相關的移民政策那這歸陸委會還有我們內政部的夜館那相關的討論我們都非常尊重那就國安局的角度來講我們比較重視的倒不是它的年限的調整而是中共有沒有可能透過特定的陸配或陸配團體\n\n34\n00:12:15,806 --> 00:12:15,986\n謝謝局長,謝謝主席,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n29\t4031\t謝謝主席,那有請這個局長,謝謝請局長好,謝謝主席,沈委員早好,委員早那這個,感謝這個主席安排這一個題目這個題目其實非常的困難那這個,今天我最主要的因為在這個報告書裡面有特別提到除了這一個美國選舉之外有包含中國的這個反間諜法\n28285\t28325\t《反間諜法》\n44509\t44669\t沈伯洋\n61969\t85995\t那第一個呢我就想問就是說在我們過往的這一個研究當中就會發現尤其是後面兩個就是統戰跟這個輿論操作這兩個在疫情的時候因為統戰變得比較少尤其在2023之前那那個時候呢中國的輿論操作是變得比較多的所以就是說後兩者有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係那我想問這個局裡面就是說因為我們等一下會討論這一個美國大選\n88355\t97721\t在這個整體的情勢之下我們再看中國的手段中間因為它畢竟是一個整體的預算那這三者之間對局長來講有沒有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係\n99193\t120108\t對,事實上中共對台灣的一個複合式威脅的一個手法它是多管齊下來對台灣進行各種的施壓那這部分的一個操作包括到有所謂的政治的滲透也是我目前在關切的重點另外還有包括經濟的脅迫、軍事的恫嚇、治安的攻擊以及政治作戰的操作所以中國在這方面的資源分配它會透過政府各個部員來投資相關的資源\n121789\t140382\t那相關的一個支援的益助應該委員也有注意到在今年兩會他們還有特別投入到一兆的特別預算那我們也在注意這一兆的特別預算除了有放在所謂中國要特別發展的薪資的這種生產力以外有沒有移到國安部門的操作那這也是我們後續要觀察的重點\n141087\t160575\t好 謝謝局長那這一個就是因為這次主席安排的這一個題目最主要是跟美國跟中國有關所以那我們就一直在想說就是如果我們今天要去看對我們國內的影響到底美國的影響會是在這三個的哪一個那其中第一個呢我們能夠看到的就是像這樣的一個圖這是這個共濟老台的這一個數量\n161775\t161915\t沈伯洋\n181895\t202937\t所以就是說美國的所作所為他的行為呢很明顯的會影響到就是我們剛剛前面這一頁提到的最左邊這一個軍事那現在大選來到呢因為各候選人有可能會對這一個台灣的議題或者中國的議題來發言那這一個發言呢會影響到軍事以外呢局長的判斷對於候兩者的影響大概有多大\n203496\t217452\t對我想中共對台灣的各種的軍事施壓的動作他現在有個趨勢就是慢慢朝向常態化的發展那特別剛剛委員也提到了所謂的聯合戰備警巡那現在大概聯合戰備警巡的頻次\n218513\t218913\t臺灣跟外國往來的一些\n246885\t271745\t所以每每我們可以發現到當有我的國家的國會通過了友台的議案或是剛好有外艦巡弋台海周邊的水域或是有剛好有外國的政要帶我台灣來訪問中國也會搭配到他現有這種常態化的戰備警訊配合到這些外交事件來做一些操作那這個操作重點可能除了有武力的一個東赫以外也會配合到認知作戰還有正義訊息的散步\n272285\t293057\t主要目的就是希望台灣的輿論在看待相關中共的武力動惑過程當中能夠讓台灣社會有不同的分化的一個意見那達到他任志作戰的一個效果好 謝謝局長的這個分析那剛剛有提到這一個一兆的這個預算那這個預算的本身的分配呢當然最主要可能跟後兩者比較有關係他不是純軍事的但是因為對中國來講因為統戰畢竟是比較花錢的事情\n295999\t322629\t那操作輿論或者說其他的一些手段對他來講是低成本所以尤其是在這次的金門海域的事件我們可以看到他們不斷地想要去擴張他們的執法權所以我在這邊稍微整理了一下就是從2014因為報告裡面有提到反間諜法那14開始有反間諜法23又再做一次修正那中間有這個國家安全法這個網路安全、密碼、數據安全我就不一一說了那兩會的時候其實他們又有提到這一個跟反間諜法的一些相關的發言\n324210\t344596\t所以說其實通過法律對他們來講並不是一個高成本的事情那這個是法律本身那以執法來講呢我們遇到了這個李明哲的事件這個在微信上面寫的這個中國要如何民主就被抓了還有這個海外設置這個秘密警察局一直到我們現在金門所以呢這些一些執法權的一些擴張對他們來講算是一個比較低成本的行動\n345436\t362472\t也因此呢我就一直在想說我們對於這整體的一個分析的這一個情勢來講我們剛剛提到的是後兩者就是統戰跟資訊操作看起來好像會有一些預算上的擠壓的這個關係比如說這個統戰的預算稍微少一點的時候輿論的操作有時候看起來會更多\n363092\t379923\t那我們現在看到的反而是前面兩個互相的關係就是在軍事層面他會去搭配這個管轄權的擴張不管是他們上初日還有做這個登檢又或者說他們現在不承認我們的中線不承認這個禁止跟限制的海域所以我就一直在想說\n380623\t393248\t如果說前兩者這個有一點這個預算上的關係後兩者有預算上的關係的話那我們現在對於這一個司法權的擴張他我們的應對的措施跟方案會是什麼以局裡面的角度來講\n394022\t414805\t好,我想委員很正確的指出來就我們在觀察中共的國安的法制這幾年確實有非常嚴密的部件那除了剛剛委員在螢幕上所顯示的這些新的國安法制以外在這次的兩會過程當中可以特別要注意到的他們有可能會在今年5月1號開始實施所謂的保守國家秘密法的新的修正的版本\n415225\t444024\t那一般我們在觀察中共的相關國安法制在通過之後我們還會看他細部的執行的狀況因為一般在中央通過了相關的國安法制之後地方政府還會再提出他們的施行作業的要點跟細則那所以我們都會去觀察到在中央政府的法令頒布之後各個地方對於兩岸的交流有沒有一些所謂的這種司法管轄或是留置詢問相關的一個做法那當然也有特別注意到有幾個城市這一方面似乎做得特別積極\n444744\t465816\t所以這個部分我們會繼續的來注意中共在法律戰的一個操作那這個部分我們想也利用這個機會就官局的角度來講怎麼樣來適度來揭露相關中共的做法以及提醒國人到對岸不管是經商、求學、活動、旅遊、過程的風險性我想這一方面的事件我們必須要不斷的來提醒民眾\n466687\t492766\t那感謝局長因為剛剛局長提到一個非常重要的點就是交流活動這件事因為交流活動在這個圖裡面最主要就是右邊第二個這個統戰的部分那本來對我們來講司法權的一些擴張執法的擴張管轄權的擴張看起來比較像是他們剛剛制定的這些法律或者說他在海上面目前是在金門附近的執法所達成的一個效果但其實中間這兩個司法權跟統戰其實有很高度的疊合因為以局長的經驗來講你可能應該知道\n494767\t513621\t目前來講會依照這些法律被逮捕的人有時候反而都是在統戰網絡裡面的人也就是說因為對中國來講他們有需要很多的KPI那在逮捕這些人的時候呢他要找人的時候反而會找到比較跟中國親近的人所以有時候我們會反而看到是親中的人比較容易被逮捕\n514581\t543320\t所以我們在這邊可以看到這個是中原院社會所畫的統戰脈絡其實可以看到這個統戰的脈絡已經深得非常的深我現在比較有疑慮的事情就是其實國人對於附中可能會有一定的風險是可能會有認知的他不一定知道自己在統戰的脈絡裡面因為統戰的脈絡本身並不是一個不公開的資訊像以這個圖來講它只是根據了目前現有的官媒因為官媒會做KPI\n543940\t563333\t所以台灣的有哪些組織或個人跟中國有所接觸的話呢他就可以形成這樣的一個網絡圖那我們也知道其實微信公眾號裡面也有非常多這樣的一個KPI所以不知道以局長的這個我們目前的工作來講有沒有機會呢去擴張這樣的一個圖像然後讓國人知道說到底是不是處於危險當中\n564481\t589453\t對,目前國安道對岸有遭受到關押、拘禁來審判的大概有11個案子那另外在通過海關遭到留置詢問的大概有29個案子那我們也像委員所提到的,針對這些個案遭到偵訊或關押台灣民眾的背景到底有哪些的組成也做一些分析那主要大概包括的有相關的這種民間的社團\n590293\t591154\t沈伯洋 沈伯洋\n611425\t615187\t對,那局長剛剛提到的比較就是個案就是說他已經因為被留置或者說可能被審訊等等這些的狀況那我們剛剛在想的事情比較像是說把有風險的個體跟團體都先盤點出來\n634055\t657993\t因為先盤點出來先給予警告可能會是一個更好的做法因為像以這次的這個比如說禁團令來講好了很多的業者對於跟中國這個交涉的一個風險他可能有認知但他可能對於中國的剛剛講的這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的也就是說風險可能比他想像中的還要更大但他卻不知那再加上我們台灣會有各式各樣的反制手段那這個反制手段也會影響到國人\n659634\t680855\t所以這個國人對這件事情風險的認知也很希望就是由國安單位能夠提供不管是給陸委會或經濟部讓國人能夠知道這樣的一個風險好 這我們來努力 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝所以這個就是關於剛剛提到的比如說這個學術交流可能就會被抓拍攝港口的畫面也會被逮捕中國大陸這一個外國機構的密切交往也會被逮捕\n681716\t710693\t這方面就是剛剛所說的希望能夠提出這樣的一個比較像類型化的一個方式讓國人知道但是反過來講我覺得一個比較有危險的地方就是在於說我們現在對於這一個中配入籍可能也是有一些爭議那非常重要的事情就是在沒有放棄中國籍之前反過來講他們也能夠在這邊必須符合他們的法律框架的情報法在台灣來蒐集情報跟資訊所以就這一點不知道局長有沒有什麼需要跟國人說明的地方\n711001\t734866\t我想中配陸配入籍的一個年限的討論我們尊重各界的一個意見那它主要在政策面向涉及到的有我們的兩岸政策跟相關的移民政策那這歸陸委會還有我們內政部的夜館那相關的討論我們都非常尊重那就國安局的角度來講我們比較重視的倒不是它的年限的調整而是中共有沒有可能透過特定的陸配或陸配團體\n735806\t735986\t謝謝局長,謝謝主席,謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,那有請這個局長,謝謝請局長好,謝謝主席,沈委員早好,委員早那這個,感謝這個主席安排這一個題目這個題目其實非常的困難那這個,今天我最主要的因為在這個報告書裡面有特別提到除了這一個美國選舉之外有包含中國的這個反間諜法\n《反間諜法》\n沈伯洋\n那第一個呢我就想問就是說在我們過往的這一個研究當中就會發現尤其是後面兩個就是統戰跟這個輿論操作這兩個在疫情的時候因為統戰變得比較少尤其在2023之前那那個時候呢中國的輿論操作是變得比較多的所以就是說後兩者有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係那我想問這個局裡面就是說因為我們等一下會討論這一個美國大選\n在這個整體的情勢之下我們再看中國的手段中間因為它畢竟是一個整體的預算那這三者之間對局長來講有沒有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係\n對,事實上中共對台灣的一個複合式威脅的一個手法它是多管齊下來對台灣進行各種的施壓那這部分的一個操作包括到有所謂的政治的滲透也是我目前在關切的重點另外還有包括經濟的脅迫、軍事的恫嚇、治安的攻擊以及政治作戰的操作所以中國在這方面的資源分配它會透過政府各個部員來投資相關的資源\n那相關的一個支援的益助應該委員也有注意到在今年兩會他們還有特別投入到一兆的特別預算那我們也在注意這一兆的特別預算除了有放在所謂中國要特別發展的薪資的這種生產力以外有沒有移到國安部門的操作那這也是我們後續要觀察的重點\n好 謝謝局長那這一個就是因為這次主席安排的這一個題目最主要是跟美國跟中國有關所以那我們就一直在想說就是如果我們今天要去看對我們國內的影響到底美國的影響會是在這三個的哪一個那其中第一個呢我們能夠看到的就是像這樣的一個圖這是這個共濟老台的這一個數量\n沈伯洋\n所以就是說美國的所作所為他的行為呢很明顯的會影響到就是我們剛剛前面這一頁提到的最左邊這一個軍事那現在大選來到呢因為各候選人有可能會對這一個台灣的議題或者中國的議題來發言那這一個發言呢會影響到軍事以外呢局長的判斷對於候兩者的影響大概有多大\n對我想中共對台灣的各種的軍事施壓的動作他現在有個趨勢就是慢慢朝向常態化的發展那特別剛剛委員也提到了所謂的聯合戰備警巡那現在大概聯合戰備警巡的頻次\n臺灣跟外國往來的一些\n所以每每我們可以發現到當有我的國家的國會通過了友台的議案或是剛好有外艦巡弋台海周邊的水域或是有剛好有外國的政要帶我台灣來訪問中國也會搭配到他現有這種常態化的戰備警訊配合到這些外交事件來做一些操作那這個操作重點可能除了有武力的一個東赫以外也會配合到認知作戰還有正義訊息的散步\n主要目的就是希望台灣的輿論在看待相關中共的武力動惑過程當中能夠讓台灣社會有不同的分化的一個意見那達到他任志作戰的一個效果好 謝謝局長的這個分析那剛剛有提到這一個一兆的這個預算那這個預算的本身的分配呢當然最主要可能跟後兩者比較有關係他不是純軍事的但是因為對中國來講因為統戰畢竟是比較花錢的事情\n那操作輿論或者說其他的一些手段對他來講是低成本所以尤其是在這次的金門海域的事件我們可以看到他們不斷地想要去擴張他們的執法權所以我在這邊稍微整理了一下就是從2014因為報告裡面有提到反間諜法那14開始有反間諜法23又再做一次修正那中間有這個國家安全法這個網路安全、密碼、數據安全我就不一一說了那兩會的時候其實他們又有提到這一個跟反間諜法的一些相關的發言\n所以說其實通過法律對他們來講並不是一個高成本的事情那這個是法律本身那以執法來講呢我們遇到了這個李明哲的事件這個在微信上面寫的這個中國要如何民主就被抓了還有這個海外設置這個秘密警察局一直到我們現在金門所以呢這些一些執法權的一些擴張對他們來講算是一個比較低成本的行動\n也因此呢我就一直在想說我們對於這整體的一個分析的這一個情勢來講我們剛剛提到的是後兩者就是統戰跟資訊操作看起來好像會有一些預算上的擠壓的這個關係比如說這個統戰的預算稍微少一點的時候輿論的操作有時候看起來會更多\n那我們現在看到的反而是前面兩個互相的關係就是在軍事層面他會去搭配這個管轄權的擴張不管是他們上初日還有做這個登檢又或者說他們現在不承認我們的中線不承認這個禁止跟限制的海域所以我就一直在想說\n如果說前兩者這個有一點這個預算上的關係後兩者有預算上的關係的話那我們現在對於這一個司法權的擴張他我們的應對的措施跟方案會是什麼以局裡面的角度來講\n好,我想委員很正確的指出來就我們在觀察中共的國安的法制這幾年確實有非常嚴密的部件那除了剛剛委員在螢幕上所顯示的這些新的國安法制以外在這次的兩會過程當中可以特別要注意到的他們有可能會在今年5月1號開始實施所謂的保守國家秘密法的新的修正的版本\n那一般我們在觀察中共的相關國安法制在通過之後我們還會看他細部的執行的狀況因為一般在中央通過了相關的國安法制之後地方政府還會再提出他們的施行作業的要點跟細則那所以我們都會去觀察到在中央政府的法令頒布之後各個地方對於兩岸的交流有沒有一些所謂的這種司法管轄或是留置詢問相關的一個做法那當然也有特別注意到有幾個城市這一方面似乎做得特別積極\n所以這個部分我們會繼續的來注意中共在法律戰的一個操作那這個部分我們想也利用這個機會就官局的角度來講怎麼樣來適度來揭露相關中共的做法以及提醒國人到對岸不管是經商、求學、活動、旅遊、過程的風險性我想這一方面的事件我們必須要不斷的來提醒民眾\n那感謝局長因為剛剛局長提到一個非常重要的點就是交流活動這件事因為交流活動在這個圖裡面最主要就是右邊第二個這個統戰的部分那本來對我們來講司法權的一些擴張執法的擴張管轄權的擴張看起來比較像是他們剛剛制定的這些法律或者說他在海上面目前是在金門附近的執法所達成的一個效果但其實中間這兩個司法權跟統戰其實有很高度的疊合因為以局長的經驗來講你可能應該知道\n目前來講會依照這些法律被逮捕的人有時候反而都是在統戰網絡裡面的人也就是說因為對中國來講他們有需要很多的KPI那在逮捕這些人的時候呢他要找人的時候反而會找到比較跟中國親近的人所以有時候我們會反而看到是親中的人比較容易被逮捕\n所以我們在這邊可以看到這個是中原院社會所畫的統戰脈絡其實可以看到這個統戰的脈絡已經深得非常的深我現在比較有疑慮的事情就是其實國人對於附中可能會有一定的風險是可能會有認知的他不一定知道自己在統戰的脈絡裡面因為統戰的脈絡本身並不是一個不公開的資訊像以這個圖來講它只是根據了目前現有的官媒因為官媒會做KPI\n所以台灣的有哪些組織或個人跟中國有所接觸的話呢他就可以形成這樣的一個網絡圖那我們也知道其實微信公眾號裡面也有非常多這樣的一個KPI所以不知道以局長的這個我們目前的工作來講有沒有機會呢去擴張這樣的一個圖像然後讓國人知道說到底是不是處於危險當中\n對,目前國安道對岸有遭受到關押、拘禁來審判的大概有11個案子那另外在通過海關遭到留置詢問的大概有29個案子那我們也像委員所提到的,針對這些個案遭到偵訊或關押台灣民眾的背景到底有哪些的組成也做一些分析那主要大概包括的有相關的這種民間的社團\n沈伯洋 沈伯洋\n對,那局長剛剛提到的比較就是個案就是說他已經因為被留置或者說可能被審訊等等這些的狀況那我們剛剛在想的事情比較像是說把有風險的個體跟團體都先盤點出來\n因為先盤點出來先給予警告可能會是一個更好的做法因為像以這次的這個比如說禁團令來講好了很多的業者對於跟中國這個交涉的一個風險他可能有認知但他可能對於中國的剛剛講的這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的也就是說風險可能比他想像中的還要更大但他卻不知那再加上我們台灣會有各式各樣的反制手段那這個反制手段也會影響到國人\n所以這個國人對這件事情風險的認知也很希望就是由國安單位能夠提供不管是給陸委會或經濟部讓國人能夠知道這樣的一個風險好 這我們來努力 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝所以這個就是關於剛剛提到的比如說這個學術交流可能就會被抓拍攝港口的畫面也會被逮捕中國大陸這一個外國機構的密切交往也會被逮捕\n這方面就是剛剛所說的希望能夠提出這樣的一個比較像類型化的一個方式讓國人知道但是反過來講我覺得一個比較有危險的地方就是在於說我們現在對於這一個中配入籍可能也是有一些爭議那非常重要的事情就是在沒有放棄中國籍之前反過來講他們也能夠在這邊必須符合他們的法律框架的情報法在台灣來蒐集情報跟資訊所以就這一點不知道局長有沒有什麼需要跟國人說明的地方\n我想中配陸配入籍的一個年限的討論我們尊重各界的一個意見那它主要在政策面向涉及到的有我們的兩岸政策跟相關的移民政策那這歸陸委會還有我們內政部的夜館那相關的討論我們都非常尊重那就國安局的角度來講我們比較重視的倒不是它的年限的調整而是中共有沒有可能透過特定的陸配或陸配團體\n謝謝局長,謝謝主席,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.029 --> 00:04.031\n謝謝主席,那有請這個局長,謝謝請局長好,謝謝主席,沈委員早好,委員早那這個,感謝這個主席安排這一個題目這個題目其實非常的困難那這個,今天我最主要的因為在這個報告書裡面有特別提到除了這一個美國選舉之外有包含中國的這個反間諜法\n\n00:28.285 --> 00:28.325\n《反間諜法》\n\n00:44.509 --> 00:44.669\n沈伯洋\n\n01:01.969 --> 01:25.995\n那第一個呢我就想問就是說在我們過往的這一個研究當中就會發現尤其是後面兩個就是統戰跟這個輿論操作這兩個在疫情的時候因為統戰變得比較少尤其在2023之前那那個時候呢中國的輿論操作是變得比較多的所以就是說後兩者有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係那我想問這個局裡面就是說因為我們等一下會討論這一個美國大選\n\n01:28.355 --> 01:37.721\n在這個整體的情勢之下我們再看中國的手段中間因為它畢竟是一個整體的預算那這三者之間對局長來講有沒有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係\n\n01:39.193 --> 02:00.108\n對,事實上中共對台灣的一個複合式威脅的一個手法它是多管齊下來對台灣進行各種的施壓那這部分的一個操作包括到有所謂的政治的滲透也是我目前在關切的重點另外還有包括經濟的脅迫、軍事的恫嚇、治安的攻擊以及政治作戰的操作所以中國在這方面的資源分配它會透過政府各個部員來投資相關的資源\n\n02:01.789 --> 02:20.382\n那相關的一個支援的益助應該委員也有注意到在今年兩會他們還有特別投入到一兆的特別預算那我們也在注意這一兆的特別預算除了有放在所謂中國要特別發展的薪資的這種生產力以外有沒有移到國安部門的操作那這也是我們後續要觀察的重點\n\n02:21.087 --> 02:40.575\n好謝謝局長那這一個就是因為這次主席安排的這一個題目最主要是跟美國跟中國有關所以那我們就一直在想說就是如果我們今天要去看對我們國內的影響到底美國的影響會是在這三個的哪一個那其中第一個呢我們能夠看到的就是像這樣的一個圖這是這個共濟老台的這一個數量\n\n02:41.775 --> 02:41.915\n沈伯洋\n\n03:01.895 --> 03:22.937\n所以就是說美國的所作所為他的行為呢很明顯的會影響到就是我們剛剛前面這一頁提到的最左邊這一個軍事那現在大選來到呢因為各候選人有可能會對這一個台灣的議題或者中國的議題來發言那這一個發言呢會影響到軍事以外呢局長的判斷對於候兩者的影響大概有多大\n\n03:23.496 --> 03:37.452\n對我想中共對台灣的各種的軍事施壓的動作他現在有個趨勢就是慢慢朝向常態化的發展那特別剛剛委員也提到了所謂的聯合戰備警巡那現在大概聯合戰備警巡的頻次\n\n03:38.513 --> 03:38.913\n臺灣跟外國往來的一些\n\n04:06.885 --> 04:31.745\n所以每每我們可以發現到當有我的國家的國會通過了友台的議案或是剛好有外艦巡弋台海周邊的水域或是有剛好有外國的政要帶我台灣來訪問中國也會搭配到他現有這種常態化的戰備警訊配合到這些外交事件來做一些操作那這個操作重點可能除了有武力的一個東赫以外也會配合到認知作戰還有正義訊息的散步\n\n04:32.285 --> 04:53.057\n主要目的就是希望台灣的輿論在看待相關中共的武力動惑過程當中能夠讓台灣社會有不同的分化的一個意見那達到他任志作戰的一個效果好謝謝局長的這個分析那剛剛有提到這一個一兆的這個預算那這個預算的本身的分配呢當然最主要可能跟後兩者比較有關係他不是純軍事的但是因為對中國來講因為統戰畢竟是比較花錢的事情\n\n04:55.999 --> 05:22.629\n那操作輿論或者說其他的一些手段對他來講是低成本所以尤其是在這次的金門海域的事件我們可以看到他們不斷地想要去擴張他們的執法權所以我在這邊稍微整理了一下就是從2014因為報告裡面有提到反間諜法那14開始有反間諜法23又再做一次修正那中間有這個國家安全法這個網路安全、密碼、數據安全我就不一一說了那兩會的時候其實他們又有提到這一個跟反間諜法的一些相關的發言\n\n05:24.210 --> 05:44.596\n所以說其實通過法律對他們來講並不是一個高成本的事情那這個是法律本身那以執法來講呢我們遇到了這個李明哲的事件這個在微信上面寫的這個中國要如何民主就被抓了還有這個海外設置這個秘密警察局一直到我們現在金門所以呢這些一些執法權的一些擴張對他們來講算是一個比較低成本的行動\n\n05:45.436 --> 06:02.472\n也因此呢我就一直在想說我們對於這整體的一個分析的這一個情勢來講我們剛剛提到的是後兩者就是統戰跟資訊操作看起來好像會有一些預算上的擠壓的這個關係比如說這個統戰的預算稍微少一點的時候輿論的操作有時候看起來會更多\n\n06:03.092 --> 06:19.923\n那我們現在看到的反而是前面兩個互相的關係就是在軍事層面他會去搭配這個管轄權的擴張不管是他們上初日還有做這個登檢又或者說他們現在不承認我們的中線不承認這個禁止跟限制的海域所以我就一直在想說\n\n06:20.623 --> 06:33.248\n如果說前兩者這個有一點這個預算上的關係後兩者有預算上的關係的話那我們現在對於這一個司法權的擴張他我們的應對的措施跟方案會是什麼以局裡面的角度來講\n\n06:34.022 --> 06:54.805\n好,我想委員很正確的指出來就我們在觀察中共的國安的法制這幾年確實有非常嚴密的部件那除了剛剛委員在螢幕上所顯示的這些新的國安法制以外在這次的兩會過程當中可以特別要注意到的他們有可能會在今年5月1號開始實施所謂的保守國家秘密法的新的修正的版本\n\n06:55.225 --> 07:24.024\n那一般我們在觀察中共的相關國安法制在通過之後我們還會看他細部的執行的狀況因為一般在中央通過了相關的國安法制之後地方政府還會再提出他們的施行作業的要點跟細則那所以我們都會去觀察到在中央政府的法令頒布之後各個地方對於兩岸的交流有沒有一些所謂的這種司法管轄或是留置詢問相關的一個做法那當然也有特別注意到有幾個城市這一方面似乎做得特別積極\n\n07:24.744 --> 07:45.816\n所以這個部分我們會繼續的來注意中共在法律戰的一個操作那這個部分我們想也利用這個機會就官局的角度來講怎麼樣來適度來揭露相關中共的做法以及提醒國人到對岸不管是經商、求學、活動、旅遊、過程的風險性我想這一方面的事件我們必須要不斷的來提醒民眾\n\n07:46.687 --> 08:12.766\n那感謝局長因為剛剛局長提到一個非常重要的點就是交流活動這件事因為交流活動在這個圖裡面最主要就是右邊第二個這個統戰的部分那本來對我們來講司法權的一些擴張執法的擴張管轄權的擴張看起來比較像是他們剛剛制定的這些法律或者說他在海上面目前是在金門附近的執法所達成的一個效果但其實中間這兩個司法權跟統戰其實有很高度的疊合因為以局長的經驗來講你可能應該知道\n\n08:14.767 --> 08:33.621\n目前來講會依照這些法律被逮捕的人有時候反而都是在統戰網絡裡面的人也就是說因為對中國來講他們有需要很多的KPI那在逮捕這些人的時候呢他要找人的時候反而會找到比較跟中國親近的人所以有時候我們會反而看到是親中的人比較容易被逮捕\n\n08:34.581 --> 09:03.320\n所以我們在這邊可以看到這個是中原院社會所畫的統戰脈絡其實可以看到這個統戰的脈絡已經深得非常的深我現在比較有疑慮的事情就是其實國人對於附中可能會有一定的風險是可能會有認知的他不一定知道自己在統戰的脈絡裡面因為統戰的脈絡本身並不是一個不公開的資訊像以這個圖來講它只是根據了目前現有的官媒因為官媒會做KPI\n\n09:03.940 --> 09:23.333\n所以台灣的有哪些組織或個人跟中國有所接觸的話呢他就可以形成這樣的一個網絡圖那我們也知道其實微信公眾號裡面也有非常多這樣的一個KPI所以不知道以局長的這個我們目前的工作來講有沒有機會呢去擴張這樣的一個圖像然後讓國人知道說到底是不是處於危險當中\n\n09:24.481 --> 09:49.453\n對,目前國安道對岸有遭受到關押、拘禁來審判的大概有11個案子那另外在通過海關遭到留置詢問的大概有29個案子那我們也像委員所提到的,針對這些個案遭到偵訊或關押台灣民眾的背景到底有哪些的組成也做一些分析那主要大概包括的有相關的這種民間的社團\n\n09:50.293 --> 09:51.154\n沈伯洋沈伯洋\n\n10:11.425 --> 10:15.187\n對,那局長剛剛提到的比較就是個案就是說他已經因為被留置或者說可能被審訊等等這些的狀況那我們剛剛在想的事情比較像是說把有風險的個體跟團體都先盤點出來\n\n10:34.055 --> 10:57.993\n因為先盤點出來先給予警告可能會是一個更好的做法因為像以這次的這個比如說禁團令來講好了很多的業者對於跟中國這個交涉的一個風險他可能有認知但他可能對於中國的剛剛講的這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的也就是說風險可能比他想像中的還要更大但他卻不知那再加上我們台灣會有各式各樣的反制手段那這個反制手段也會影響到國人\n\n10:59.634 --> 11:20.855\n所以這個國人對這件事情風險的認知也很希望就是由國安單位能夠提供不管是給陸委會或經濟部讓國人能夠知道這樣的一個風險好這我們來努力謝謝委員提醒好謝謝所以這個就是關於剛剛提到的比如說這個學術交流可能就會被抓拍攝港口的畫面也會被逮捕中國大陸這一個外國機構的密切交往也會被逮捕\n\n11:21.716 --> 11:50.693\n這方面就是剛剛所說的希望能夠提出這樣的一個比較像類型化的一個方式讓國人知道但是反過來講我覺得一個比較有危險的地方就是在於說我們現在對於這一個中配入籍可能也是有一些爭議那非常重要的事情就是在沒有放棄中國籍之前反過來講他們也能夠在這邊必須符合他們的法律框架的情報法在台灣來蒐集情報跟資訊所以就這一點不知道局長有沒有什麼需要跟國人說明的地方\n\n11:51.001 --> 12:14.866\n我想中配陸配入籍的一個年限的討論我們尊重各界的一個意見那它主要在政策面向涉及到的有我們的兩岸政策跟相關的移民政策那這歸陸委會還有我們內政部的夜館那相關的討論我們都非常尊重那就國安局的角度來講我們比較重視的倒不是它的年限的調整而是中共有沒有可能透過特定的陸配或陸配團體\n\n12:15.806 --> 12:15.986\n謝謝局長,謝謝主席,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.029,"end":4.031,"text":"謝謝主席,那有請這個局長,謝謝請局長好,謝謝主席,沈委員早好,委員早那這個,感謝這個主席安排這一個題目這個題目其實非常的困難那這個,今天我最主要的因為在這個報告書裡面有特別提到除了這一個美國選舉之外有包含中國的這個反間諜法"},{"start":28.285,"end":28.325,"text":"《反間諜法》"},{"start":44.509,"end":44.669,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":61.969,"end":85.995,"text":"那第一個呢我就想問就是說在我們過往的這一個研究當中就會發現尤其是後面兩個就是統戰跟這個輿論操作這兩個在疫情的時候因為統戰變得比較少尤其在2023之前那那個時候呢中國的輿論操作是變得比較多的所以就是說後兩者有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係那我想問這個局裡面就是說因為我們等一下會討論這一個美國大選"},{"start":88.355,"end":97.721,"text":"在這個整體的情勢之下我們再看中國的手段中間因為它畢竟是一個整體的預算那這三者之間對局長來講有沒有一個比較此消彼長的一個關係"},{"start":99.193,"end":120.108,"text":"對,事實上中共對台灣的一個複合式威脅的一個手法它是多管齊下來對台灣進行各種的施壓那這部分的一個操作包括到有所謂的政治的滲透也是我目前在關切的重點另外還有包括經濟的脅迫、軍事的恫嚇、治安的攻擊以及政治作戰的操作所以中國在這方面的資源分配它會透過政府各個部員來投資相關的資源"},{"start":121.789,"end":140.382,"text":"那相關的一個支援的益助應該委員也有注意到在今年兩會他們還有特別投入到一兆的特別預算那我們也在注意這一兆的特別預算除了有放在所謂中國要特別發展的薪資的這種生產力以外有沒有移到國安部門的操作那這也是我們後續要觀察的重點"},{"start":141.087,"end":160.575,"text":"好 謝謝局長那這一個就是因為這次主席安排的這一個題目最主要是跟美國跟中國有關所以那我們就一直在想說就是如果我們今天要去看對我們國內的影響到底美國的影響會是在這三個的哪一個那其中第一個呢我們能夠看到的就是像這樣的一個圖這是這個共濟老台的這一個數量"},{"start":161.775,"end":161.915,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":181.895,"end":202.937,"text":"所以就是說美國的所作所為他的行為呢很明顯的會影響到就是我們剛剛前面這一頁提到的最左邊這一個軍事那現在大選來到呢因為各候選人有可能會對這一個台灣的議題或者中國的議題來發言那這一個發言呢會影響到軍事以外呢局長的判斷對於候兩者的影響大概有多大"},{"start":203.496,"end":217.452,"text":"對我想中共對台灣的各種的軍事施壓的動作他現在有個趨勢就是慢慢朝向常態化的發展那特別剛剛委員也提到了所謂的聯合戰備警巡那現在大概聯合戰備警巡的頻次"},{"start":218.513,"end":218.913,"text":"臺灣跟外國往來的一些"},{"start":246.885,"end":271.745,"text":"所以每每我們可以發現到當有我的國家的國會通過了友台的議案或是剛好有外艦巡弋台海周邊的水域或是有剛好有外國的政要帶我台灣來訪問中國也會搭配到他現有這種常態化的戰備警訊配合到這些外交事件來做一些操作那這個操作重點可能除了有武力的一個東赫以外也會配合到認知作戰還有正義訊息的散步"},{"start":272.285,"end":293.057,"text":"主要目的就是希望台灣的輿論在看待相關中共的武力動惑過程當中能夠讓台灣社會有不同的分化的一個意見那達到他任志作戰的一個效果好 謝謝局長的這個分析那剛剛有提到這一個一兆的這個預算那這個預算的本身的分配呢當然最主要可能跟後兩者比較有關係他不是純軍事的但是因為對中國來講因為統戰畢竟是比較花錢的事情"},{"start":295.999,"end":322.629,"text":"那操作輿論或者說其他的一些手段對他來講是低成本所以尤其是在這次的金門海域的事件我們可以看到他們不斷地想要去擴張他們的執法權所以我在這邊稍微整理了一下就是從2014因為報告裡面有提到反間諜法那14開始有反間諜法23又再做一次修正那中間有這個國家安全法這個網路安全、密碼、數據安全我就不一一說了那兩會的時候其實他們又有提到這一個跟反間諜法的一些相關的發言"},{"start":324.21,"end":344.596,"text":"所以說其實通過法律對他們來講並不是一個高成本的事情那這個是法律本身那以執法來講呢我們遇到了這個李明哲的事件這個在微信上面寫的這個中國要如何民主就被抓了還有這個海外設置這個秘密警察局一直到我們現在金門所以呢這些一些執法權的一些擴張對他們來講算是一個比較低成本的行動"},{"start":345.436,"end":362.472,"text":"也因此呢我就一直在想說我們對於這整體的一個分析的這一個情勢來講我們剛剛提到的是後兩者就是統戰跟資訊操作看起來好像會有一些預算上的擠壓的這個關係比如說這個統戰的預算稍微少一點的時候輿論的操作有時候看起來會更多"},{"start":363.092,"end":379.923,"text":"那我們現在看到的反而是前面兩個互相的關係就是在軍事層面他會去搭配這個管轄權的擴張不管是他們上初日還有做這個登檢又或者說他們現在不承認我們的中線不承認這個禁止跟限制的海域所以我就一直在想說"},{"start":380.623,"end":393.248,"text":"如果說前兩者這個有一點這個預算上的關係後兩者有預算上的關係的話那我們現在對於這一個司法權的擴張他我們的應對的措施跟方案會是什麼以局裡面的角度來講"},{"start":394.022,"end":414.805,"text":"好,我想委員很正確的指出來就我們在觀察中共的國安的法制這幾年確實有非常嚴密的部件那除了剛剛委員在螢幕上所顯示的這些新的國安法制以外在這次的兩會過程當中可以特別要注意到的他們有可能會在今年5月1號開始實施所謂的保守國家秘密法的新的修正的版本"},{"start":415.225,"end":444.024,"text":"那一般我們在觀察中共的相關國安法制在通過之後我們還會看他細部的執行的狀況因為一般在中央通過了相關的國安法制之後地方政府還會再提出他們的施行作業的要點跟細則那所以我們都會去觀察到在中央政府的法令頒布之後各個地方對於兩岸的交流有沒有一些所謂的這種司法管轄或是留置詢問相關的一個做法那當然也有特別注意到有幾個城市這一方面似乎做得特別積極"},{"start":444.744,"end":465.816,"text":"所以這個部分我們會繼續的來注意中共在法律戰的一個操作那這個部分我們想也利用這個機會就官局的角度來講怎麼樣來適度來揭露相關中共的做法以及提醒國人到對岸不管是經商、求學、活動、旅遊、過程的風險性我想這一方面的事件我們必須要不斷的來提醒民眾"},{"start":466.687,"end":492.766,"text":"那感謝局長因為剛剛局長提到一個非常重要的點就是交流活動這件事因為交流活動在這個圖裡面最主要就是右邊第二個這個統戰的部分那本來對我們來講司法權的一些擴張執法的擴張管轄權的擴張看起來比較像是他們剛剛制定的這些法律或者說他在海上面目前是在金門附近的執法所達成的一個效果但其實中間這兩個司法權跟統戰其實有很高度的疊合因為以局長的經驗來講你可能應該知道"},{"start":494.767,"end":513.621,"text":"目前來講會依照這些法律被逮捕的人有時候反而都是在統戰網絡裡面的人也就是說因為對中國來講他們有需要很多的KPI那在逮捕這些人的時候呢他要找人的時候反而會找到比較跟中國親近的人所以有時候我們會反而看到是親中的人比較容易被逮捕"},{"start":514.581,"end":543.32,"text":"所以我們在這邊可以看到這個是中原院社會所畫的統戰脈絡其實可以看到這個統戰的脈絡已經深得非常的深我現在比較有疑慮的事情就是其實國人對於附中可能會有一定的風險是可能會有認知的他不一定知道自己在統戰的脈絡裡面因為統戰的脈絡本身並不是一個不公開的資訊像以這個圖來講它只是根據了目前現有的官媒因為官媒會做KPI"},{"start":543.94,"end":563.333,"text":"所以台灣的有哪些組織或個人跟中國有所接觸的話呢他就可以形成這樣的一個網絡圖那我們也知道其實微信公眾號裡面也有非常多這樣的一個KPI所以不知道以局長的這個我們目前的工作來講有沒有機會呢去擴張這樣的一個圖像然後讓國人知道說到底是不是處於危險當中"},{"start":564.481,"end":589.453,"text":"對,目前國安道對岸有遭受到關押、拘禁來審判的大概有11個案子那另外在通過海關遭到留置詢問的大概有29個案子那我們也像委員所提到的,針對這些個案遭到偵訊或關押台灣民眾的背景到底有哪些的組成也做一些分析那主要大概包括的有相關的這種民間的社團"},{"start":590.293,"end":591.154,"text":"沈伯洋 沈伯洋"},{"start":611.425,"end":615.187,"text":"對,那局長剛剛提到的比較就是個案就是說他已經因為被留置或者說可能被審訊等等這些的狀況那我們剛剛在想的事情比較像是說把有風險的個體跟團體都先盤點出來"},{"start":634.055,"end":657.993,"text":"因為先盤點出來先給予警告可能會是一個更好的做法因為像以這次的這個比如說禁團令來講好了很多的業者對於跟中國這個交涉的一個風險他可能有認知但他可能對於中國的剛剛講的這些各式各樣的法律是沒有什麼認知的也就是說風險可能比他想像中的還要更大但他卻不知那再加上我們台灣會有各式各樣的反制手段那這個反制手段也會影響到國人"},{"start":659.634,"end":680.855,"text":"所以這個國人對這件事情風險的認知也很希望就是由國安單位能夠提供不管是給陸委會或經濟部讓國人能夠知道這樣的一個風險好 這我們來努力 謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝所以這個就是關於剛剛提到的比如說這個學術交流可能就會被抓拍攝港口的畫面也會被逮捕中國大陸這一個外國機構的密切交往也會被逮捕"},{"start":681.716,"end":710.693,"text":"這方面就是剛剛所說的希望能夠提出這樣的一個比較像類型化的一個方式讓國人知道但是反過來講我覺得一個比較有危險的地方就是在於說我們現在對於這一個中配入籍可能也是有一些爭議那非常重要的事情就是在沒有放棄中國籍之前反過來講他們也能夠在這邊必須符合他們的法律框架的情報法在台灣來蒐集情報跟資訊所以就這一點不知道局長有沒有什麼需要跟國人說明的地方"},{"start":711.001,"end":734.866,"text":"我想中配陸配入籍的一個年限的討論我們尊重各界的一個意見那它主要在政策面向涉及到的有我們的兩岸政策跟相關的移民政策那這歸陸委會還有我們內政部的夜館那相關的討論我們都非常尊重那就國安局的角度來講我們比較重視的倒不是它的年限的調整而是中共有沒有可能透過特定的陸配或陸配團體"},{"start":735.806,"end":735.986,"text":"謝謝局長,謝謝主席,謝謝"}]}}}}