{"id":149619,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43007c6e2c3960c6fe9943c6dab19d9f116df8ba9b0039caa7a64763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:30:44 - 09:40:05","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":561,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:40:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:30:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":175,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時30分）謝謝主席，有請中選會主委。"],["主席：主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。本席請問，您覺得公投的重要性比起一般選舉孰輕孰重？"],["李主任委員進勇：我覺得都很重要。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是一樣重要，對不對？因為選舉、罷免、創制、複決都是憲法保障人民參政權的行使，所以本席一向主張，既然推動選務，那麼公投與一般選舉應該要平等看待，我想主委應該不會反對這樣的說法？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有問題、沒有問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有問題，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是以這樣的精神在處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：最近大家在熱議不在籍投票的法案修訂，因為選舉辦法總要與時俱進，而基於便民這個最大考量，目的是為了降低社會成本，讓選務的推動能夠更順利。我想這個大方向應該不分朝野都有共識，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但本席看到行政院現在推動的不在籍投票的修法只限於公投，我覺得這有一點奇怪。剛剛主委也講了，既然公投的重要性與選舉的重要性一樣大，為什麼我們不能一步到位？是不是請主委先做一下說明？"],["李主任委員進勇：並不是僅限於公民投票，而是從公民投票開始，我們適度根據實施經驗再做研議、再做推廣。為什麼會有這樣的考慮？因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到比較複雜的因素，所以有關總統副總統選舉不在籍投票辦法，其實在102年、105年曾兩度被提出來，但因為朝野意見分歧，沒有辦法達成基本共識，以致102年屆期不續審，105年則是行政院把案子撤回去了，再重新進行檢討。至於現在策略是怎麼樣？我跟委員報告。現在策略就是，選舉不能因為選制的改變一下子衝擊到選務，造成選務的混亂，從而影響到整個選舉的公平，所以我們採取比較審慎的態度，從公民投票開始來執行。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委回答得很清楚，但這與我剛剛開宗明義談到的最大價值相悖！你剛剛說選舉跟公投的重要性一樣，是對於選民行使參政權的保障。可是你們在實務執行時，顯然是把公投當實驗，大白話就是這樣……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是……"],["牛委員煦庭：你說要先從這個東西做參酌，然後從這個經驗來延伸，這意思就是把公投當實驗。當然，我理解選務操辦是很複雜的事，我也贊成主委剛剛講的公信力很重要，這些我不是不能理解。這次討論本黨有提出非常多不在籍投票的修法法案，既然民眾有這樣的需求，那我希望基於便民、平等的概念能夠一步到位。今天質詢時間畢竟有限，待修法時另以專門時間來做討論跟報告，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：選務單位的意見我們會很忠實地提供給各位委員做參考。"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天質詢的意思就是請主委先做準備，好不好？我們一定主張選舉與公投要並進，至於範圍可進可退，主管機關的困難之處，大家酌予採納；社會的質疑之處，大家要酌予說明，但是我們要先做準備，好不好？這是本席今天提的第一個問題……"],["李主任委員進勇：適用範圍與實施方式都需要……"],["牛委員煦庭：請中選會先提版本，就像公投不在籍一樣，地方選務也先做好準備，這樣好歹討論法案的時候……"],["李主任委員進勇：草案由內政部來提。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，但我覺得你要做說明……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們都有討論……"],["牛委員煦庭：內政部要怎麼提，我想他一定很在乎作為執行單位的中選會的意見……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們都有意見交換。"],["牛委員煦庭：是不是先把這些做清楚說明，讓我們未來討論不在籍投票法案時，能夠理性、透明並資訊充分？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有問題，我們一定會把我們的意見充分表達出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝主委。再來，本席要做政策對話，本席主張選務成本高一點，社會成本才會低一點，剛剛我們討論的不在籍投票其實就是一個例子，但我還是要再補充說明幾個其他的例子，比如說第一個，我們談剛剛結束的這場大選的若干所謂選務爭議，我完全理解基層選務人員其實是非常辛苦的……"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員體諒……"],["牛委員煦庭：還要面對質疑，其實對他們來說是不公平的，但是我們在這件事情上面，因為選舉是高張力的社會動員，質疑總是非常多，所以我們希望中選會該提的改善方案還是要提，你該花一點資源去做提升公信力的工作，絕對划算嘛！比如票箱、票櫃格式的全面統一，比如計票、唱票的動作能不能規定的更細緻一點，與此同時，本席也強烈主張，你給予這些基層選務人員的津貼跟福利也要全面升級。這些東西去做下去的時候，也許我們下一次的選舉，即便它還是高張力，但是你這邊選務人員細節的東西做得越好，質疑的聲音就會越少，基層也會更有把握，你同不同意本席的說法？"],["李主任委員進勇：我絕對同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：好不好？那這一點我就請中選會趕快來做研擬了，像這種事情我是覺得……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們不斷地在精進，在選務的部分怎麼樣讓民眾對我們能夠有信心，過程如何能夠更加地透明。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣做選務單位會多花錢，可是如果社會的質疑能少一點，社會成本是降低的，這就是我剛剛講的，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：那我也跟委員報告一下，我們一次選舉二十幾萬的選務工作人員……"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：大部分來自公教……"],["牛委員煦庭：軍公教嘛！公教，對不起，公教人員嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：一部分是民間熱心的人士……"],["牛委員煦庭：熱心人士，所以我講我們在規則的設計上，在動線或者是物件的布置上面，能夠提高公信就降低他們的壓力，也是在幫他們說話，好不好？","第二個，本席提一下公投連署的事情，你現在有電子連署系統，剛剛張宏陸委員也有做一些質詢，可是提案的部分好像沒有辦法用，也許提案的門檻比較低，可是既然都是同一套的科技設備，你為什麼不能一體適用呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：提案的門檻比較低這是一個原因，另外一個原因就是說，因為公投的提案在提案正式成立要進行連署之前，其實我們選務機關缺乏完整的一個審議機制，就是你隨便進來都可以，如果是這樣子的話，恐怕會耗費很多的社會成本。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你的主張當然是從中選會的本位去做思考，但是我們作為民意代表，我們的本位是人民的權益，既然我們會弄出一個公投，一定是人民對於這個題目有強烈的意志啦！當然審查上一樣，就是我剛剛講的……"],["李主任委員進勇：嚴謹一點……"],["牛委員煦庭：你選務的成本可能會增加，可是社會成本會降低，我們希望這個東西透明、方便、快速、有效，那當然不表示你不審核嘛！對不對？但是我覺得把電子提案也納入連署機制應該不會太困難，這一點我希望中選會來做思考。","再來，我要再講的是，既然公投可以做電子連署，相對來講沒有黨籍背書的正副總統候選人的連署，能不能也納入電子連署的機制，好不好？因為今天的時間比較短，這部分你提供後面的一些資料，但本席希望科技的運用不要為德不卒，一步到位那是比較好的，也許一樣，你選務又要適應，但是對於整個社會來說，如果是有效率的，我是認為應該要大膽的往前跨，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：對整個國家來講，選務的穩定是非常非常重要，因為……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個本席也同意。"],["李主任委員進勇：因為這不能夠讓它有任何的錯亂。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，但是你要把這些東西納入思考，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：所以我們是很審慎，我們不是故步自封，我們是很審慎，這一點也請大家能夠諒解。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後一點點時間，本席要跟你談一下一些選務的改革，當然也許跟內政部有關，因為選政、選務好像又有一點分工的問題，但本席是強烈主張我們要逐步增加公費選舉的比例，我們當然不太容易用一部法律就讓所有的選舉都變成公費選舉，但是我們可以增加公辦選舉的一些比例，比如現在地方民意代表的公辦政見發表會就一場，然後也不強制辯論或什麼的，能不能透過增加場次的方式，慢慢讓社會大眾認定說這一場選舉的公辦政見發表會是重要的，我們能不能開始設計公辦看板的格式，讓大家知道由公家來處理的統一格式的選舉，它的比例是重要的，它在選舉裡面的占比跟話語權跟曝光度是提升的，這樣可能沒有辦法一步到位，但是它可以慢慢地走向公費選舉制的精神，對於所有願意參選政治人物，尤其是年輕世代來講，我認為這是有正面意義的。","我們剛剛講的這些事情，不管是公投電子聯署的提案，我們剛剛講選務的一些精進措施，我們講的選舉制度的一些方向、改革，都會增加你們中選會的工作內容，可是這些工作內容的增加、成本的增加，都會降低社會的成本，提高選舉的公信力，所以希望主委會後針對本席提這幾個政策的建議，擬具一些書面的回應，好讓我們知道推動的方向，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：好的，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭的質詢。","請下一位許委員宇甄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-5","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","黃建賓","王美惠","徐欣瑩","黃捷","高金素梅","丁學忠","鄭天財Sra 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0.918}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 60.704, \"end\": 60.804, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 60.804, \"end\": 60.904, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 60.904, \"end\": 61.704, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 61.704, \"end\": 61.844, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 61.844, \"end\": 61.944, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 61.944, \"end\": 62.104, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 62.104, \"end\": 62.345, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 62.345, \"end\": 62.765, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 62.765, \"end\": 62.965, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 62.965, \"end\": 63.065, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 63.065, \"end\": 63.205, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"籍\", \"start\": 63.205, \"end\": 63.345, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 63.345, \"end\": 63.465, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 63.465, \"end\": 63.565, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 63.565, \"end\": 63.685, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 63.685, \"end\": 64.025, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 64.025, \"end\": 64.565, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 64.565, \"end\": 64.805, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 64.805, \"end\": 64.946, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 64.946, \"end\": 65.266, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 65.266, \"end\": 65.586, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 65.586, \"end\": 65.606, \"score\": 0.035}]}, {\"start\": 66.306, \"end\": 77.128, \"text\": \"我覺得這個是有一點奇怪的剛剛主委也講了嘛既然公投的重要性跟選舉的重要性應該是一樣大的那為什麼我們不能一步到位呢這是不是請主委先做一下說明\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 66.306, \"end\": 66.607, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 66.607, \"end\": 66.807, \"score\": 0.872}, 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\"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 72.88, \"end\": 73.2, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 73.2, \"end\": 73.381, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 73.381, \"end\": 73.822, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 73.822, \"end\": 74.062, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 74.062, \"end\": 74.303, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 74.303, \"end\": 74.463, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 74.463, \"end\": 74.563, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 74.563, \"end\": 74.703, \"score\": 0.707}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 74.703, \"end\": 74.784, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 74.784, \"end\": 74.964, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 74.964, \"end\": 75.144, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 75.144, \"end\": 75.325, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 75.325, \"end\": 75.786, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 75.786, \"end\": 75.886, \"score\": 0.595}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 75.886, \"end\": 75.966, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 75.966, \"end\": 76.126, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 76.126, \"end\": 76.267, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 76.267, \"end\": 76.467, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 76.467, \"end\": 76.667, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 76.667, \"end\": 76.788, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 76.788, \"end\": 76.828, \"score\": 0.441}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 76.828, \"end\": 77.108, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 77.108, \"end\": 77.128, \"score\": 0.949}]}, {\"start\": 77.762, \"end\": 88.753, \"text\": \"好的 並不是說僅限於公民投票 而是從公民投票開始我們徹底的根據實施的經驗再來做研議 再來做推廣那為什麼會有這樣子的考慮其實因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到的比較複雜的因素\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", 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86.911, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 86.911, \"end\": 87.411, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 87.411, \"end\": 87.431, \"score\": 0.171}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 87.431, \"end\": 87.532, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 87.532, \"end\": 87.552, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"廣\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 87.552, \"end\": 87.572, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 87.572, \"end\": 87.712, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 87.712, \"end\": 87.732, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 87.732, \"end\": 87.852, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 87.852, \"end\": 87.932, \"score\": 0.188}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 87.932, \"end\": 88.112, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 88.112, \"end\": 88.132, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 88.132, \"end\": 88.272, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 88.272, \"end\": 88.432, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 88.432, \"end\": 88.452, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 88.452, \"end\": 88.472, \"score\": 0.516}, {\"word\": \"籍\", \"start\": 88.472, \"end\": 88.532, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 88.532, \"end\": 88.553, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 88.553, \"end\": 88.573, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"牽\"}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 88.573, \"end\": 88.593, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 88.593, \"end\": 88.653, \"score\": 0.555}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 88.653, \"end\": 88.673, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 88.673, \"end\": 88.693, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"複\"}, {\"word\": \"雜\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 88.693, \"end\": 88.713, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 88.713, \"end\": 88.733, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"素\", \"start\": 88.733, \"end\": 88.753, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 99.523, \"end\": 113.658, \"text\": \"所以有關於總統副總統的選舉不再集投票的辦法其實在102年105年都有兩度的被提出來因為朝野意見分歧沒有辦法達成基本的共識所以102年的是藉其不續審\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 99.523, \"end\": 99.723, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 99.723, \"end\": 99.803, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 99.803, \"end\": 100.504, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 100.504, \"end\": 100.764, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 100.764, \"end\": 101.305, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 101.305, \"end\": 102.366, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 102.366, \"end\": 102.506, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 102.506, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 107.171, \"end\": 107.291, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 107.291, \"end\": 107.411, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 107.411, \"end\": 107.552, \"score\": 0.611}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 107.552, \"end\": 107.712, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 107.712, \"end\": 108.412, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 108.412, \"end\": 108.753, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"朝\", \"start\": 108.753, \"end\": 109.073, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"野\", \"start\": 109.073, \"end\": 109.313, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 109.313, \"end\": 109.874, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 109.874, \"end\": 110.234, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"歧\", \"start\": 110.234, \"end\": 110.575, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 110.575, \"end\": 110.675, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"有\", 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00:01:05,606\n這個基於變民這個最大的考量應該是目的是要降低社會成本讓選務的推動能夠更順利我想這個大的方向這個應該是不分草野應該有共識的地方對不對但是本席看到這個行政院現在推動的不在籍投票的修法只限於公投\n\n4\n00:01:06,306 --> 00:01:17,128\n我覺得這個是有一點奇怪的剛剛主委也講了嘛既然公投的重要性跟選舉的重要性應該是一樣大的那為什麼我們不能一步到位呢這是不是請主委先做一下說明\n\n5\n00:01:17,762 --> 00:01:28,753\n好的並不是說僅限於公民投票而是從公民投票開始我們徹底的根據實施的經驗再來做研議再來做推廣那為什麼會有這樣子的考慮其實因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到的比較複雜的因素\n\n6\n00:01:39,523 --> 00:01:53,658\n所以有關於總統副總統的選舉不再集投票的辦法其實在102年105年都有兩度的被提出來因為朝野意見分歧沒有辦法達成基本的共識所以102年的是藉其不續審\n\n7\n00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:12,187\n105年的是行政院就把這個案子撤回去了再重新進行檢討那現在的策略是怎麼樣我跟委員報告現在策略就是說因為選舉你不能夠因為選制的一個改變一下子衝擊到選務造成選務的混亂的話那影響到整個選舉的公平所以我們是採取比較審慎的態度從公民投票\n\n8\n00:02:20,071 --> 00:02:36,578\n主委我想你回答得很清楚但這就跟我們開宗明義去談的這最大價值基本上就是相悖你剛剛講說選舉跟公投重要性一樣重要這是對於選民行使參政權的保障可是你在實務執行的時候你們顯然是把公投當成實驗\n\n9\n00:02:37,378 --> 00:03:01,995\n其實我們講大白話就是這樣你說我要先從這個東西做參酌然後從這個經驗來延伸其實他的意思就變成把共和黨實驗當然我理解主委沒關係我理解就是說選務操辦是很複雜的事而且我也贊成主委剛剛講公信力很重要所以我不能理解但是我希望這次在討論的時候因為本黨有提出非常多不在籍投票的修法法案我希望既然民眾是有這樣子的需求\n\n10\n00:03:02,335 --> 00:03:22,007\n希望基於辨明也希望基於平等的概念能夠一步到位我們今天因為質詢的時間畢竟有限到時候修法的時候我們可能還會有專門的時間來做討論跟報告選務單位的意見我們很忠實的來提供給各位我現在今天做質詢的意思就是請主委先做準備好不好我們的議定主張\n\n11\n00:03:23,427 --> 00:03:51,513\n選舉跟公投要並進那當然範圍上可進可退主管機關的困難之處大家要著於採納社會的質疑之處大家要著於說明但是我們要先做準備好不好所以這是本期今天提的第一個問題適用的範圍跟實施的方式都需要做準備中選會請你先提版本嘛就像你現在公投有不在籍一樣地方選務你也先做好準備嘛好歹我們在到時候討論法案的時候這個草案是由內政部來提啦沒關係但是我是覺得你要做你要做單位的說明我們都有討論\n\n12\n00:03:52,073 --> 00:03:52,253\n主席\n\n13\n00:04:09,761 --> 00:04:30,639\n再來本席今天要做政策對話本席的主張叫選務成本高一點社會成本才會低一點剛剛我們討論不在一起投票其實就是一個例子但我們還是要再補充說明幾個其他的例子比如說第一個我們談這個剛剛結束的這樣大選的若干的所謂的選務爭議我完全理解基層選務人員他其實是非常辛苦的\n\n14\n00:04:30,959 --> 00:04:31,459\n中央選舉委員會主任\n\n15\n00:04:47,851 --> 00:05:04,050\n提升公信力的工作絕對划算比如說票箱票櫃格式的全面統一比如說計票唱票的動作能不能規定的更細緻一點與此同時本席也強烈主張你再給予這些基層選務人員的津貼跟福利也要全面升級\n\n16\n00:05:05,111 --> 00:05:33,944\n這些東西去做下去的時候也許我們下一次選舉即便它還是高張力但是你這邊選務的細節東西做得越好質疑的聲音就會越少基層也會更有把握這樣子你同不同意本席的說法我絕對同意好不好那這一點我就請中選會就趕快來做研擬了像這種事情我是覺得不斷的在精進在選務的部分對啦讓民眾對我們能夠有信心這樣做喔那個過程如何能夠更加的透明這樣做選務單位會多花錢可是如果社會質疑能少一點社會成本是降低的\n\n17\n00:05:34,144 --> 00:06:01,685\n這就是我剛剛講的那我也跟委員報告一下我們一次選舉20幾萬的選務工作人員大部分來自公教上一部分是民間熱心的人士所以是熱心人士所以我講我們在規則的設計上在動線或者是物件的佈置上面能夠提高公信就降低他們壓力也是在幫他們說謊好不好第二個本席也提一下公投連署的事情你現在有電子連署系統剛剛張宏祿委員也有去做一些質疑\n\n18\n00:06:02,366 --> 00:06:09,688\n可是提案的部分好像沒有辦法用也許提案的門檻比較低啊可是既然都是同一套的科技設備你為什麼不能一體試用呢\n\n19\n00:06:10,765 --> 00:06:31,813\n提案的門檻比較低這是一個原因另外一個原因就是說因為這個公投的提案在提案正式成立要進行連署之前其實我們選務機關缺乏完整的一個審議的機制就是說你隨便進來都可以進來都可以那如果是這樣子的話恐怕會耗費很多的這個社會的成本\n\n20\n00:06:37,196 --> 00:07:04,173\n你的主張當然是從中選會的本位去做思考啦但是我們作為民意代表我們的本位是人民的權益嘛既然我們會弄出一個公投一定是人民對於這個題目有強烈的意志啦所以當然審查上一樣這是我剛剛講的你可能選務的成本會增加可是社會成本會降低嘛我們希望說這個東西透明方便快速有效那當然不表示你不審核嘛對不對但是我覺得把電子提案也納入聯署機制應該不會太困難啦\n\n21\n00:07:04,813 --> 00:07:25,127\n這一點我希望中委會來做思考再來我要再講的是那既然公投可以做電子連署我們這個相對來講沒有黨籍背書的政府總統候選人他的連署能不能也納入電子連署的機制好不好因為今天的時間今天的時間比較短啦這一部分你提供後面的一些資料但本席都希望科技的運用不要為得不足啦\n\n22\n00:07:25,627 --> 00:07:53,225\n一步到位那是比較好的也許一樣你選務又要適應啦但是對於整個社會來說如果是有效率的我是認為應該要大膽的往前跨對整個國家來講選務的穩定是非常非常重要這個本席也同意因為這個不能夠讓他有任何的一個錯亂對但是你要把這些東西大家都思考我們是很審慎我們不是固步自封我們是很審慎這一點也請大家能夠最後一點點時間本席要跟你談一下這個一些選務的改革當然也許跟內政部有關因為選政選務好像\n\n23\n00:07:54,366 --> 00:08:12,462\n有一點分工的這個問題但本期是強烈主張我們要逐步增加公費選舉的比例我們當然沒有不太容易用一部法律啊就讓所有的選舉都變成公費選舉但是我們可以增加公辦選舉的一些這個一些比例比如說我們現在在地方民意代表公辦政見發表會就一場\n\n24\n00:08:13,283 --> 00:08:27,953\n然後也不強制辯論或什麼的能不能透過增加場次的方式慢慢讓社會大眾認定說這一場選舉公辦政見發表是重要的我們能不能開始設計公辦看板的格式讓大家去知道\n\n25\n00:08:28,933 --> 00:08:46,862\n這個由公家來處理的統一格式的選舉它的比例是重要的它在選舉裡面的佔比跟話語權跟曝光度是提升的這樣可能沒有辦法一步到位但是它可以慢慢慢慢的走向公費選舉制的精神對於所有願意參選政治人物尤其是年輕世代來講我認為這是有正面意義的\n\n26\n00:08:48,082 --> 00:09:13,187\n這些事情我們剛剛講的不管是共同電子連署的提案我們剛剛講選務的一些精進措施我們講的選舉制度的一些方向的一些改革都會增加你們中選會的工作內容可是這些工作內容的增加成本的增加都會降低社會的成本提高選舉的公信力所以希望主委會後針對本席提的這幾個政策的建議去拟據一些書面的回應好讓我們知道推動的方向可以嗎好的謝謝主委辛苦了\n\n27\n00:09:15,825 --> 00:09:21,297\n謝謝我們牛煦庭的執行請我們下一位我們的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t2031\t委員好主委早安本席先請問一下您覺得公投的重要性比起我們一般的選舉孰輕孰重\n18832\t41818\t我覺得都很重要應該是一樣重要對不對因為選舉罷免創之復絕這都是憲法保障人民參政權的行使所以本席一向都主張竟然推動選務公投跟一般的選舉應該要平等看待我想主委應該不會反對這樣的說法沒有問題沒有問題對不對因為最近大家開始熱議這個不在籍投票的這個法案的修訂那當然嘛就是我們的選舉的辦法總是要與時俱進\n48139\t65606\t這個基於變民這個最大的考量應該是目的是要降低社會成本讓選務的推動能夠更順利我想這個大的方向這個應該是不分草野應該有共識的地方對不對但是本席看到這個行政院現在推動的不在籍投票的修法只限於公投\n66306\t77128\t我覺得這個是有一點奇怪的剛剛主委也講了嘛既然公投的重要性跟選舉的重要性應該是一樣大的那為什麼我們不能一步到位呢這是不是請主委先做一下說明\n77762\t88753\t好的 並不是說僅限於公民投票 而是從公民投票開始我們徹底的根據實施的經驗再來做研議 再來做推廣那為什麼會有這樣子的考慮其實因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到的比較複雜的因素\n99523\t113658\t所以有關於總統副總統的選舉不再集投票的辦法其實在102年105年都有兩度的被提出來因為朝野意見分歧沒有辦法達成基本的共識所以102年的是藉其不續審\n116400\t132187\t105年的是行政院就把這個案子撤回去了再重新進行檢討那現在的策略是怎麼樣我跟委員報告現在策略就是說因為選舉你不能夠因為選制的一個改變一下子衝擊到選務造成選務的混亂的話那影響到整個選舉的公平所以我們是採取比較審慎的態度從公民投票\n140071\t156578\t主委我想你回答得很清楚但這就跟我們開宗明義去談的這最大價值基本上就是相悖你剛剛講說選舉跟公投重要性一樣重要這是對於選民行使參政權的保障可是你在實務執行的時候你們顯然是把公投當成實驗\n157378\t181995\t其實我們講大白話就是這樣你說我要先從這個東西做參酌然後從這個經驗來延伸其實他的意思就變成把共和黨實驗當然我理解主委沒關係我理解就是說選務操辦是很複雜的事而且我也贊成主委剛剛講公信力很重要所以我不能理解但是我希望這次在討論的時候因為本黨有提出非常多不在籍投票的修法法案我希望既然民眾是有這樣子的需求\n182335\t202007\t希望基於辨明也希望基於平等的概念能夠一步到位我們今天因為質詢的時間畢竟有限到時候修法的時候我們可能還會有專門的時間來做討論跟報告選務單位的意見我們很忠實的來提供給各位我現在今天做質詢的意思就是請主委先做準備好不好我們的議定主張\n203427\t231513\t選舉跟公投要並進那當然範圍上可進可退主管機關的困難之處大家要著於採納社會的質疑之處大家要著於說明但是我們要先做準備好不好所以這是本期今天提的第一個問題適用的範圍跟實施的方式都需要做準備中選會請你先提版本嘛就像你現在公投有不在籍一樣地方選務你也先做好準備嘛好歹我們在到時候討論法案的時候這個草案是由內政部來提啦沒關係但是我是覺得你要做你要做單位的說明我們都有討論\n232073\t232253\t主席\n249761\t270639\t再來本席今天要做政策對話本席的主張叫選務成本高一點社會成本才會低一點剛剛我們討論不在一起投票其實就是一個例子但我們還是要再補充說明幾個其他的例子比如說第一個我們談這個剛剛結束的這樣大選的若干的所謂的選務爭議我完全理解基層選務人員他其實是非常辛苦的\n270959\t271459\t中央選舉委員會主任\n287851\t304050\t提升公信力的工作 絕對划算比如說票箱票櫃格式的全面統一比如說計票唱票的動作能不能規定的更細緻一點與此同時本席也強烈主張你再給予這些基層選務人員的津貼跟福利也要全面升級\n305111\t333944\t這些東西去做下去的時候也許我們下一次選舉即便它還是高張力但是你這邊選務的細節東西做得越好質疑的聲音就會越少基層也會更有把握這樣子你同不同意本席的說法我絕對同意好不好那這一點我就請中選會就趕快來做研擬了像這種事情我是覺得不斷的在精進在選務的部分對啦讓民眾對我們能夠有信心這樣做喔那個過程如何能夠更加的透明這樣做選務單位會多花錢可是如果社會質疑能少一點社會成本是降低的\n334144\t361685\t這就是我剛剛講的那我也跟委員報告一下我們一次選舉20幾萬的選務工作人員大部分來自公教上一部分是民間熱心的人士所以是熱心人士所以我講我們在規則的設計上在動線或者是物件的佈置上面能夠提高公信就降低他們壓力也是在幫他們說謊好不好第二個本席也提一下公投連署的事情你現在有電子連署系統剛剛張宏祿委員也有去做一些質疑\n362366\t369688\t可是提案的部分好像沒有辦法用也許提案的門檻比較低啊可是既然都是同一套的科技設備你為什麼不能一體試用呢\n370765\t391813\t提案的門檻比較低這是一個原因另外一個原因就是說因為這個公投的提案在提案正式成立要進行連署之前其實我們選務機關缺乏完整的一個審議的機制就是說你隨便進來都可以進來都可以那如果是這樣子的話恐怕會耗費很多的這個社會的成本\n397196\t424173\t你的主張當然是從中選會的本位去做思考啦但是我們作為民意代表我們的本位是人民的權益嘛既然我們會弄出一個公投一定是人民對於這個題目有強烈的意志啦所以當然審查上一樣這是我剛剛講的你可能選務的成本會增加可是社會成本會降低嘛我們希望說這個東西透明方便快速有效那當然不表示你不審核嘛對不對但是我覺得把電子提案也納入聯署機制應該不會太困難啦\n424813\t445127\t這一點我希望中委會來做思考再來我要再講的是那既然公投可以做電子連署我們這個相對來講沒有黨籍背書的政府總統候選人他的連署能不能也納入電子連署的機制好不好因為今天的時間今天的時間比較短啦這一部分你提供後面的一些資料但本席都希望科技的運用不要為得不足啦\n445627\t473225\t一步到位那是比較好的也許一樣你選務又要適應啦但是對於整個社會來說如果是有效率的我是認為應該要大膽的往前跨對整個國家來講選務的穩定是非常非常重要這個本席也同意因為這個不能夠讓他有任何的一個錯亂對但是你要把這些東西大家都思考我們是很審慎我們不是固步自封我們是很審慎這一點也請大家能夠最後一點點時間本席要跟你談一下這個一些選務的改革當然也許跟內政部有關因為選政選務好像\n474366\t492462\t有一點分工的這個問題但本期是強烈主張我們要逐步增加公費選舉的比例我們當然沒有不太容易用一部法律啊就讓所有的選舉都變成公費選舉但是我們可以增加公辦選舉的一些這個一些比例比如說我們現在在地方民意代表公辦政見發表會就一場\n493283\t507953\t然後也不強制辯論或什麼的能不能透過增加場次的方式慢慢讓社會大眾認定說這一場選舉公辦政見發表是重要的我們能不能開始設計公辦看板的格式讓大家去知道\n508933\t526862\t這個由公家來處理的統一格式的選舉它的比例是重要的它在選舉裡面的佔比跟話語權跟曝光度是提升的這樣可能沒有辦法一步到位但是它可以慢慢慢慢的走向公費選舉制的精神對於所有願意參選政治人物尤其是年輕世代來講我認為這是有正面意義的\n528082\t553187\t這些事情我們剛剛講的不管是共同電子連署的提案我們剛剛講選務的一些精進措施我們講的選舉制度的一些方向的一些改革都會增加你們中選會的工作內容可是這些工作內容的增加成本的增加都會降低社會的成本提高選舉的公信力所以希望主委會後針對本席提的這幾個政策的建議去拟據一些書面的回應好讓我們知道推動的方向可以嗎好的謝謝主委辛苦了\n555825\t561297\t謝謝我們牛煦庭的執行請我們下一位我們的\n","txt":"委員好主委早安本席先請問一下您覺得公投的重要性比起我們一般的選舉孰輕孰重\n我覺得都很重要應該是一樣重要對不對因為選舉罷免創之復絕這都是憲法保障人民參政權的行使所以本席一向都主張竟然推動選務公投跟一般的選舉應該要平等看待我想主委應該不會反對這樣的說法沒有問題沒有問題對不對因為最近大家開始熱議這個不在籍投票的這個法案的修訂那當然嘛就是我們的選舉的辦法總是要與時俱進\n這個基於變民這個最大的考量應該是目的是要降低社會成本讓選務的推動能夠更順利我想這個大的方向這個應該是不分草野應該有共識的地方對不對但是本席看到這個行政院現在推動的不在籍投票的修法只限於公投\n我覺得這個是有一點奇怪的剛剛主委也講了嘛既然公投的重要性跟選舉的重要性應該是一樣大的那為什麼我們不能一步到位呢這是不是請主委先做一下說明\n好的 並不是說僅限於公民投票 而是從公民投票開始我們徹底的根據實施的經驗再來做研議 再來做推廣那為什麼會有這樣子的考慮其實因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到的比較複雜的因素\n所以有關於總統副總統的選舉不再集投票的辦法其實在102年105年都有兩度的被提出來因為朝野意見分歧沒有辦法達成基本的共識所以102年的是藉其不續審\n105年的是行政院就把這個案子撤回去了再重新進行檢討那現在的策略是怎麼樣我跟委員報告現在策略就是說因為選舉你不能夠因為選制的一個改變一下子衝擊到選務造成選務的混亂的話那影響到整個選舉的公平所以我們是採取比較審慎的態度從公民投票\n主委我想你回答得很清楚但這就跟我們開宗明義去談的這最大價值基本上就是相悖你剛剛講說選舉跟公投重要性一樣重要這是對於選民行使參政權的保障可是你在實務執行的時候你們顯然是把公投當成實驗\n其實我們講大白話就是這樣你說我要先從這個東西做參酌然後從這個經驗來延伸其實他的意思就變成把共和黨實驗當然我理解主委沒關係我理解就是說選務操辦是很複雜的事而且我也贊成主委剛剛講公信力很重要所以我不能理解但是我希望這次在討論的時候因為本黨有提出非常多不在籍投票的修法法案我希望既然民眾是有這樣子的需求\n希望基於辨明也希望基於平等的概念能夠一步到位我們今天因為質詢的時間畢竟有限到時候修法的時候我們可能還會有專門的時間來做討論跟報告選務單位的意見我們很忠實的來提供給各位我現在今天做質詢的意思就是請主委先做準備好不好我們的議定主張\n選舉跟公投要並進那當然範圍上可進可退主管機關的困難之處大家要著於採納社會的質疑之處大家要著於說明但是我們要先做準備好不好所以這是本期今天提的第一個問題適用的範圍跟實施的方式都需要做準備中選會請你先提版本嘛就像你現在公投有不在籍一樣地方選務你也先做好準備嘛好歹我們在到時候討論法案的時候這個草案是由內政部來提啦沒關係但是我是覺得你要做你要做單位的說明我們都有討論\n主席\n再來本席今天要做政策對話本席的主張叫選務成本高一點社會成本才會低一點剛剛我們討論不在一起投票其實就是一個例子但我們還是要再補充說明幾個其他的例子比如說第一個我們談這個剛剛結束的這樣大選的若干的所謂的選務爭議我完全理解基層選務人員他其實是非常辛苦的\n中央選舉委員會主任\n提升公信力的工作 絕對划算比如說票箱票櫃格式的全面統一比如說計票唱票的動作能不能規定的更細緻一點與此同時本席也強烈主張你再給予這些基層選務人員的津貼跟福利也要全面升級\n這些東西去做下去的時候也許我們下一次選舉即便它還是高張力但是你這邊選務的細節東西做得越好質疑的聲音就會越少基層也會更有把握這樣子你同不同意本席的說法我絕對同意好不好那這一點我就請中選會就趕快來做研擬了像這種事情我是覺得不斷的在精進在選務的部分對啦讓民眾對我們能夠有信心這樣做喔那個過程如何能夠更加的透明這樣做選務單位會多花錢可是如果社會質疑能少一點社會成本是降低的\n這就是我剛剛講的那我也跟委員報告一下我們一次選舉20幾萬的選務工作人員大部分來自公教上一部分是民間熱心的人士所以是熱心人士所以我講我們在規則的設計上在動線或者是物件的佈置上面能夠提高公信就降低他們壓力也是在幫他們說謊好不好第二個本席也提一下公投連署的事情你現在有電子連署系統剛剛張宏祿委員也有去做一些質疑\n可是提案的部分好像沒有辦法用也許提案的門檻比較低啊可是既然都是同一套的科技設備你為什麼不能一體試用呢\n提案的門檻比較低這是一個原因另外一個原因就是說因為這個公投的提案在提案正式成立要進行連署之前其實我們選務機關缺乏完整的一個審議的機制就是說你隨便進來都可以進來都可以那如果是這樣子的話恐怕會耗費很多的這個社會的成本\n你的主張當然是從中選會的本位去做思考啦但是我們作為民意代表我們的本位是人民的權益嘛既然我們會弄出一個公投一定是人民對於這個題目有強烈的意志啦所以當然審查上一樣這是我剛剛講的你可能選務的成本會增加可是社會成本會降低嘛我們希望說這個東西透明方便快速有效那當然不表示你不審核嘛對不對但是我覺得把電子提案也納入聯署機制應該不會太困難啦\n這一點我希望中委會來做思考再來我要再講的是那既然公投可以做電子連署我們這個相對來講沒有黨籍背書的政府總統候選人他的連署能不能也納入電子連署的機制好不好因為今天的時間今天的時間比較短啦這一部分你提供後面的一些資料但本席都希望科技的運用不要為得不足啦\n一步到位那是比較好的也許一樣你選務又要適應啦但是對於整個社會來說如果是有效率的我是認為應該要大膽的往前跨對整個國家來講選務的穩定是非常非常重要這個本席也同意因為這個不能夠讓他有任何的一個錯亂對但是你要把這些東西大家都思考我們是很審慎我們不是固步自封我們是很審慎這一點也請大家能夠最後一點點時間本席要跟你談一下這個一些選務的改革當然也許跟內政部有關因為選政選務好像\n有一點分工的這個問題但本期是強烈主張我們要逐步增加公費選舉的比例我們當然沒有不太容易用一部法律啊就讓所有的選舉都變成公費選舉但是我們可以增加公辦選舉的一些這個一些比例比如說我們現在在地方民意代表公辦政見發表會就一場\n然後也不強制辯論或什麼的能不能透過增加場次的方式慢慢讓社會大眾認定說這一場選舉公辦政見發表是重要的我們能不能開始設計公辦看板的格式讓大家去知道\n這個由公家來處理的統一格式的選舉它的比例是重要的它在選舉裡面的佔比跟話語權跟曝光度是提升的這樣可能沒有辦法一步到位但是它可以慢慢慢慢的走向公費選舉制的精神對於所有願意參選政治人物尤其是年輕世代來講我認為這是有正面意義的\n這些事情我們剛剛講的不管是共同電子連署的提案我們剛剛講選務的一些精進措施我們講的選舉制度的一些方向的一些改革都會增加你們中選會的工作內容可是這些工作內容的增加成本的增加都會降低社會的成本提高選舉的公信力所以希望主委會後針對本席提的這幾個政策的建議去拟據一些書面的回應好讓我們知道推動的方向可以嗎好的謝謝主委辛苦了\n謝謝我們牛煦庭的執行請我們下一位我們的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:02.031\n委員好主委早安本席先請問一下您覺得公投的重要性比起我們一般的選舉孰輕孰重\n\n00:18.832 --> 00:41.818\n我覺得都很重要應該是一樣重要對不對因為選舉罷免創之復絕這都是憲法保障人民參政權的行使所以本席一向都主張竟然推動選務公投跟一般的選舉應該要平等看待我想主委應該不會反對這樣的說法沒有問題沒有問題對不對因為最近大家開始熱議這個不在籍投票的這個法案的修訂那當然嘛就是我們的選舉的辦法總是要與時俱進\n\n00:48.139 --> 01:05.606\n這個基於變民這個最大的考量應該是目的是要降低社會成本讓選務的推動能夠更順利我想這個大的方向這個應該是不分草野應該有共識的地方對不對但是本席看到這個行政院現在推動的不在籍投票的修法只限於公投\n\n01:06.306 --> 01:17.128\n我覺得這個是有一點奇怪的剛剛主委也講了嘛既然公投的重要性跟選舉的重要性應該是一樣大的那為什麼我們不能一步到位呢這是不是請主委先做一下說明\n\n01:17.762 --> 01:28.753\n好的並不是說僅限於公民投票而是從公民投票開始我們徹底的根據實施的經驗再來做研議再來做推廣那為什麼會有這樣子的考慮其實因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到的比較複雜的因素\n\n01:39.523 --> 01:53.658\n所以有關於總統副總統的選舉不再集投票的辦法其實在102年105年都有兩度的被提出來因為朝野意見分歧沒有辦法達成基本的共識所以102年的是藉其不續審\n\n01:56.400 --> 02:12.187\n105年的是行政院就把這個案子撤回去了再重新進行檢討那現在的策略是怎麼樣我跟委員報告現在策略就是說因為選舉你不能夠因為選制的一個改變一下子衝擊到選務造成選務的混亂的話那影響到整個選舉的公平所以我們是採取比較審慎的態度從公民投票\n\n02:20.071 --> 02:36.578\n主委我想你回答得很清楚但這就跟我們開宗明義去談的這最大價值基本上就是相悖你剛剛講說選舉跟公投重要性一樣重要這是對於選民行使參政權的保障可是你在實務執行的時候你們顯然是把公投當成實驗\n\n02:37.378 --> 03:01.995\n其實我們講大白話就是這樣你說我要先從這個東西做參酌然後從這個經驗來延伸其實他的意思就變成把共和黨實驗當然我理解主委沒關係我理解就是說選務操辦是很複雜的事而且我也贊成主委剛剛講公信力很重要所以我不能理解但是我希望這次在討論的時候因為本黨有提出非常多不在籍投票的修法法案我希望既然民眾是有這樣子的需求\n\n03:02.335 --> 03:22.007\n希望基於辨明也希望基於平等的概念能夠一步到位我們今天因為質詢的時間畢竟有限到時候修法的時候我們可能還會有專門的時間來做討論跟報告選務單位的意見我們很忠實的來提供給各位我現在今天做質詢的意思就是請主委先做準備好不好我們的議定主張\n\n03:23.427 --> 03:51.513\n選舉跟公投要並進那當然範圍上可進可退主管機關的困難之處大家要著於採納社會的質疑之處大家要著於說明但是我們要先做準備好不好所以這是本期今天提的第一個問題適用的範圍跟實施的方式都需要做準備中選會請你先提版本嘛就像你現在公投有不在籍一樣地方選務你也先做好準備嘛好歹我們在到時候討論法案的時候這個草案是由內政部來提啦沒關係但是我是覺得你要做你要做單位的說明我們都有討論\n\n03:52.073 --> 03:52.253\n主席\n\n04:09.761 --> 04:30.639\n再來本席今天要做政策對話本席的主張叫選務成本高一點社會成本才會低一點剛剛我們討論不在一起投票其實就是一個例子但我們還是要再補充說明幾個其他的例子比如說第一個我們談這個剛剛結束的這樣大選的若干的所謂的選務爭議我完全理解基層選務人員他其實是非常辛苦的\n\n04:30.959 --> 04:31.459\n中央選舉委員會主任\n\n04:47.851 --> 05:04.050\n提升公信力的工作絕對划算比如說票箱票櫃格式的全面統一比如說計票唱票的動作能不能規定的更細緻一點與此同時本席也強烈主張你再給予這些基層選務人員的津貼跟福利也要全面升級\n\n05:05.111 --> 05:33.944\n這些東西去做下去的時候也許我們下一次選舉即便它還是高張力但是你這邊選務的細節東西做得越好質疑的聲音就會越少基層也會更有把握這樣子你同不同意本席的說法我絕對同意好不好那這一點我就請中選會就趕快來做研擬了像這種事情我是覺得不斷的在精進在選務的部分對啦讓民眾對我們能夠有信心這樣做喔那個過程如何能夠更加的透明這樣做選務單位會多花錢可是如果社會質疑能少一點社會成本是降低的\n\n05:34.144 --> 06:01.685\n這就是我剛剛講的那我也跟委員報告一下我們一次選舉20幾萬的選務工作人員大部分來自公教上一部分是民間熱心的人士所以是熱心人士所以我講我們在規則的設計上在動線或者是物件的佈置上面能夠提高公信就降低他們壓力也是在幫他們說謊好不好第二個本席也提一下公投連署的事情你現在有電子連署系統剛剛張宏祿委員也有去做一些質疑\n\n06:02.366 --> 06:09.688\n可是提案的部分好像沒有辦法用也許提案的門檻比較低啊可是既然都是同一套的科技設備你為什麼不能一體試用呢\n\n06:10.765 --> 06:31.813\n提案的門檻比較低這是一個原因另外一個原因就是說因為這個公投的提案在提案正式成立要進行連署之前其實我們選務機關缺乏完整的一個審議的機制就是說你隨便進來都可以進來都可以那如果是這樣子的話恐怕會耗費很多的這個社會的成本\n\n06:37.196 --> 07:04.173\n你的主張當然是從中選會的本位去做思考啦但是我們作為民意代表我們的本位是人民的權益嘛既然我們會弄出一個公投一定是人民對於這個題目有強烈的意志啦所以當然審查上一樣這是我剛剛講的你可能選務的成本會增加可是社會成本會降低嘛我們希望說這個東西透明方便快速有效那當然不表示你不審核嘛對不對但是我覺得把電子提案也納入聯署機制應該不會太困難啦\n\n07:04.813 --> 07:25.127\n這一點我希望中委會來做思考再來我要再講的是那既然公投可以做電子連署我們這個相對來講沒有黨籍背書的政府總統候選人他的連署能不能也納入電子連署的機制好不好因為今天的時間今天的時間比較短啦這一部分你提供後面的一些資料但本席都希望科技的運用不要為得不足啦\n\n07:25.627 --> 07:53.225\n一步到位那是比較好的也許一樣你選務又要適應啦但是對於整個社會來說如果是有效率的我是認為應該要大膽的往前跨對整個國家來講選務的穩定是非常非常重要這個本席也同意因為這個不能夠讓他有任何的一個錯亂對但是你要把這些東西大家都思考我們是很審慎我們不是固步自封我們是很審慎這一點也請大家能夠最後一點點時間本席要跟你談一下這個一些選務的改革當然也許跟內政部有關因為選政選務好像\n\n07:54.366 --> 08:12.462\n有一點分工的這個問題但本期是強烈主張我們要逐步增加公費選舉的比例我們當然沒有不太容易用一部法律啊就讓所有的選舉都變成公費選舉但是我們可以增加公辦選舉的一些這個一些比例比如說我們現在在地方民意代表公辦政見發表會就一場\n\n08:13.283 --> 08:27.953\n然後也不強制辯論或什麼的能不能透過增加場次的方式慢慢讓社會大眾認定說這一場選舉公辦政見發表是重要的我們能不能開始設計公辦看板的格式讓大家去知道\n\n08:28.933 --> 08:46.862\n這個由公家來處理的統一格式的選舉它的比例是重要的它在選舉裡面的佔比跟話語權跟曝光度是提升的這樣可能沒有辦法一步到位但是它可以慢慢慢慢的走向公費選舉制的精神對於所有願意參選政治人物尤其是年輕世代來講我認為這是有正面意義的\n\n08:48.082 --> 09:13.187\n這些事情我們剛剛講的不管是共同電子連署的提案我們剛剛講選務的一些精進措施我們講的選舉制度的一些方向的一些改革都會增加你們中選會的工作內容可是這些工作內容的增加成本的增加都會降低社會的成本提高選舉的公信力所以希望主委會後針對本席提的這幾個政策的建議去拟據一些書面的回應好讓我們知道推動的方向可以嗎好的謝謝主委辛苦了\n\n09:15.825 --> 09:21.297\n謝謝我們牛煦庭的執行請我們下一位我們的\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.031,"text":"委員好主委早安本席先請問一下您覺得公投的重要性比起我們一般的選舉孰輕孰重"},{"start":18.832,"end":41.818,"text":"我覺得都很重要應該是一樣重要對不對因為選舉罷免創之復絕這都是憲法保障人民參政權的行使所以本席一向都主張竟然推動選務公投跟一般的選舉應該要平等看待我想主委應該不會反對這樣的說法沒有問題沒有問題對不對因為最近大家開始熱議這個不在籍投票的這個法案的修訂那當然嘛就是我們的選舉的辦法總是要與時俱進"},{"start":48.139,"end":65.606,"text":"這個基於變民這個最大的考量應該是目的是要降低社會成本讓選務的推動能夠更順利我想這個大的方向這個應該是不分草野應該有共識的地方對不對但是本席看到這個行政院現在推動的不在籍投票的修法只限於公投"},{"start":66.306,"end":77.128,"text":"我覺得這個是有一點奇怪的剛剛主委也講了嘛既然公投的重要性跟選舉的重要性應該是一樣大的那為什麼我們不能一步到位呢這是不是請主委先做一下說明"},{"start":77.762,"end":88.753,"text":"好的 並不是說僅限於公民投票 而是從公民投票開始我們徹底的根據實施的經驗再來做研議 再來做推廣那為什麼會有這樣子的考慮其實因為選舉的不在籍投票牽涉到的比較複雜的因素"},{"start":99.523,"end":113.658,"text":"所以有關於總統副總統的選舉不再集投票的辦法其實在102年105年都有兩度的被提出來因為朝野意見分歧沒有辦法達成基本的共識所以102年的是藉其不續審"},{"start":116.4,"end":132.187,"text":"105年的是行政院就把這個案子撤回去了再重新進行檢討那現在的策略是怎麼樣我跟委員報告現在策略就是說因為選舉你不能夠因為選制的一個改變一下子衝擊到選務造成選務的混亂的話那影響到整個選舉的公平所以我們是採取比較審慎的態度從公民投票"},{"start":140.071,"end":156.578,"text":"主委我想你回答得很清楚但這就跟我們開宗明義去談的這最大價值基本上就是相悖你剛剛講說選舉跟公投重要性一樣重要這是對於選民行使參政權的保障可是你在實務執行的時候你們顯然是把公投當成實驗"},{"start":157.378,"end":181.995,"text":"其實我們講大白話就是這樣你說我要先從這個東西做參酌然後從這個經驗來延伸其實他的意思就變成把共和黨實驗當然我理解主委沒關係我理解就是說選務操辦是很複雜的事而且我也贊成主委剛剛講公信力很重要所以我不能理解但是我希望這次在討論的時候因為本黨有提出非常多不在籍投票的修法法案我希望既然民眾是有這樣子的需求"},{"start":182.335,"end":202.007,"text":"希望基於辨明也希望基於平等的概念能夠一步到位我們今天因為質詢的時間畢竟有限到時候修法的時候我們可能還會有專門的時間來做討論跟報告選務單位的意見我們很忠實的來提供給各位我現在今天做質詢的意思就是請主委先做準備好不好我們的議定主張"},{"start":203.427,"end":231.513,"text":"選舉跟公投要並進那當然範圍上可進可退主管機關的困難之處大家要著於採納社會的質疑之處大家要著於說明但是我們要先做準備好不好所以這是本期今天提的第一個問題適用的範圍跟實施的方式都需要做準備中選會請你先提版本嘛就像你現在公投有不在籍一樣地方選務你也先做好準備嘛好歹我們在到時候討論法案的時候這個草案是由內政部來提啦沒關係但是我是覺得你要做你要做單位的說明我們都有討論"},{"start":232.073,"end":232.253,"text":"主席"},{"start":249.761,"end":270.639,"text":"再來本席今天要做政策對話本席的主張叫選務成本高一點社會成本才會低一點剛剛我們討論不在一起投票其實就是一個例子但我們還是要再補充說明幾個其他的例子比如說第一個我們談這個剛剛結束的這樣大選的若干的所謂的選務爭議我完全理解基層選務人員他其實是非常辛苦的"},{"start":270.959,"end":271.459,"text":"中央選舉委員會主任"},{"start":287.851,"end":304.05,"text":"提升公信力的工作 絕對划算比如說票箱票櫃格式的全面統一比如說計票唱票的動作能不能規定的更細緻一點與此同時本席也強烈主張你再給予這些基層選務人員的津貼跟福利也要全面升級"},{"start":305.111,"end":333.944,"text":"這些東西去做下去的時候也許我們下一次選舉即便它還是高張力但是你這邊選務的細節東西做得越好質疑的聲音就會越少基層也會更有把握這樣子你同不同意本席的說法我絕對同意好不好那這一點我就請中選會就趕快來做研擬了像這種事情我是覺得不斷的在精進在選務的部分對啦讓民眾對我們能夠有信心這樣做喔那個過程如何能夠更加的透明這樣做選務單位會多花錢可是如果社會質疑能少一點社會成本是降低的"},{"start":334.144,"end":361.685,"text":"這就是我剛剛講的那我也跟委員報告一下我們一次選舉20幾萬的選務工作人員大部分來自公教上一部分是民間熱心的人士所以是熱心人士所以我講我們在規則的設計上在動線或者是物件的佈置上面能夠提高公信就降低他們壓力也是在幫他們說謊好不好第二個本席也提一下公投連署的事情你現在有電子連署系統剛剛張宏祿委員也有去做一些質疑"},{"start":362.366,"end":369.688,"text":"可是提案的部分好像沒有辦法用也許提案的門檻比較低啊可是既然都是同一套的科技設備你為什麼不能一體試用呢"},{"start":370.765,"end":391.813,"text":"提案的門檻比較低這是一個原因另外一個原因就是說因為這個公投的提案在提案正式成立要進行連署之前其實我們選務機關缺乏完整的一個審議的機制就是說你隨便進來都可以進來都可以那如果是這樣子的話恐怕會耗費很多的這個社會的成本"},{"start":397.196,"end":424.173,"text":"你的主張當然是從中選會的本位去做思考啦但是我們作為民意代表我們的本位是人民的權益嘛既然我們會弄出一個公投一定是人民對於這個題目有強烈的意志啦所以當然審查上一樣這是我剛剛講的你可能選務的成本會增加可是社會成本會降低嘛我們希望說這個東西透明方便快速有效那當然不表示你不審核嘛對不對但是我覺得把電子提案也納入聯署機制應該不會太困難啦"},{"start":424.813,"end":445.127,"text":"這一點我希望中委會來做思考再來我要再講的是那既然公投可以做電子連署我們這個相對來講沒有黨籍背書的政府總統候選人他的連署能不能也納入電子連署的機制好不好因為今天的時間今天的時間比較短啦這一部分你提供後面的一些資料但本席都希望科技的運用不要為得不足啦"},{"start":445.627,"end":473.225,"text":"一步到位那是比較好的也許一樣你選務又要適應啦但是對於整個社會來說如果是有效率的我是認為應該要大膽的往前跨對整個國家來講選務的穩定是非常非常重要這個本席也同意因為這個不能夠讓他有任何的一個錯亂對但是你要把這些東西大家都思考我們是很審慎我們不是固步自封我們是很審慎這一點也請大家能夠最後一點點時間本席要跟你談一下這個一些選務的改革當然也許跟內政部有關因為選政選務好像"},{"start":474.366,"end":492.462,"text":"有一點分工的這個問題但本期是強烈主張我們要逐步增加公費選舉的比例我們當然沒有不太容易用一部法律啊就讓所有的選舉都變成公費選舉但是我們可以增加公辦選舉的一些這個一些比例比如說我們現在在地方民意代表公辦政見發表會就一場"},{"start":493.283,"end":507.953,"text":"然後也不強制辯論或什麼的能不能透過增加場次的方式慢慢讓社會大眾認定說這一場選舉公辦政見發表是重要的我們能不能開始設計公辦看板的格式讓大家去知道"},{"start":508.933,"end":526.862,"text":"這個由公家來處理的統一格式的選舉它的比例是重要的它在選舉裡面的佔比跟話語權跟曝光度是提升的這樣可能沒有辦法一步到位但是它可以慢慢慢慢的走向公費選舉制的精神對於所有願意參選政治人物尤其是年輕世代來講我認為這是有正面意義的"},{"start":528.082,"end":553.187,"text":"這些事情我們剛剛講的不管是共同電子連署的提案我們剛剛講選務的一些精進措施我們講的選舉制度的一些方向的一些改革都會增加你們中選會的工作內容可是這些工作內容的增加成本的增加都會降低社會的成本提高選舉的公信力所以希望主委會後針對本席提的這幾個政策的建議去拟據一些書面的回應好讓我們知道推動的方向可以嗎好的謝謝主委辛苦了"},{"start":555.825,"end":561.297,"text":"謝謝我們牛煦庭的執行請我們下一位我們的"}]}}}}