{"id":149624,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430005322d081cd68c1daea18303c979697ef8ba9b0039caa7a66e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:21:39 - 09:33:02","影片長度":"00:11:23","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-5"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":683,"end_time":"2024-03-11T09:33:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:21:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":213,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時21分）主席，有請李秘書長。"],["主席：有請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：沈委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長早，我先請教一下，你今天是以……你現在是監察委員嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我現在是監察院秘書長。"],["沈委員發惠：所以你不是監察委員？"],["李秘書長俊俋：不是委員。"],["沈委員發惠：所謂秘書長大概基本上是什麼樣的一個角色？"],["李秘書長俊俋：秘書長的概念就是一個幕僚長，就是我們如何把行政工作相關的資料準備，還有其他的部分做好，讓委員跟院長、副院長能夠順利的執行職權。"],["沈委員發惠：所以你做一個幕僚長，你可以指揮哪個監委辦了幾個案子？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有、沒有。監察院的監察委員獨立行使職權……"],["沈委員發惠：所以你哪一個委員……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個連院長都沒有辦法指派。"],["沈委員發惠：對、對、對，你現在代表監察院秘書長的身分來這裡，你可以在這裡說現在委員平均一年辦幾個案子，太多了或太少了？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我沒有這樣的權力，因為監察委員本來就是依照憲法的規定，獨立行使職權。"],["沈委員發惠：所以你今天來這裡，你也不是立法委員，你雖然今天來立法院，但你現在不是立法委員。"],["李秘書長俊俋：不是，我當然不是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以你也不能在這裡表示你個人對於哪個監察委員現在辦的案子怎麼樣……"],["李秘書長俊俋：都不能、都不能。"],["沈委員發惠：所以即使過去你擔任立法委員之後，你對監察院的職務行使有多少的意見，你今天以幕僚長的身分來這裡，你可以在這裡表達意見嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：不可以。"],["沈委員發惠：所以把你過去在立法院講的話，來這裡問你說你今天是幕僚長，請你表示意見，這適當嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個留給社會做公評。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我覺得這個質詢，今天任何一個人不要說監察院，今天你韓國瑜當總統候選人跟你今天當立法院院長，你站在上面所講的話，總統大選的時候你不是講喝酒跳舞嗎？你現在當立法院長，你可以在主席台上講喝酒跳舞嗎？所以每一個角色，我想在質詢當中，大家還是要就事論事，今天來的是監察院秘書長，不管他叫做李俊俋或他叫做王八蛋，他叫做什麼都一樣，任何人來了，他就代表監察院幕僚長，他能夠回答的就是針對他幕僚長角色可以回答的問題，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，謝謝沈委員，我也認為這樣，我今天就是以監察院秘書長身分來。"],["沈委員發惠：接下來，我想請問，剛剛有提到監察法的修正，秘書長你有提到你們這個會期內會再一次送立法院？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來，這個是上一屆有送，但是沒有通過。"],["沈委員發惠：上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：已經審查完竣。"],["沈委員發惠：都審查完竣，最後朝野協商……"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有朝野協商，所以就沒有……"],["沈委員發惠：有相關問題，所以……"],["李秘書長俊俋：屆期不連續……"],["沈委員發惠：是這個狀況嘛？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["沈委員發惠：因此這次如果我們在這個會期內再送，你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次，還是會參酌上一屆審查完竣之後所調整的條文來送？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟沈委員報告，因為上一屆送來在司法委員會審查的時候，立法委員們有很多的意見，我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見，會做若干的調整。"],["沈委員發惠：基本上會做調整，跟上一屆的……"],["李秘書長俊俋：但是我們還是要完成它的程序，就是必須整個討論以後，然後送到我們院會，院會通過以後，我們才會送到立法院來，所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個部分理論上因為上一屆在整個審查完竣之後的條文，事實上跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整。"],["李秘書長俊俋：上次有保留三條，這個部分我們會做討論，或者做部分的修正，然後再送進來。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我希望的就是這樣，不要說上一屆送的條文，這一屆又送進來同樣的，上一屆大家有意見保留的條文，你再原封不動送進來……"],["李秘書長俊俋：不會，我們已經開始進行討論程序了。"],["沈委員發惠：這裡面我特別提出，除了監察法以外，目前監察院國家人權委員會的組織法裡面有關第二條第一款，有關國家人權委員會目前「對涉及酷刑、侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視之事件進行調查，並依法處理及救濟。」這是目前國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款，這個部分我特別要跟李秘書長來討論一下，第一個就是所謂「涉及酷刑」，「酷刑」這兩個字在目前法律上面有其他的定義嗎？什麼樣叫做「酷刑」？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我的瞭解是沒有明確的定義，但是這個我們有「巴黎原則」底下所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我們現在是按照什麼？你剛剛講酷刑公約？"],["李秘書長俊俋：基本上我們是巴黎原則的簽訂國，所以會依照這樣，我們必須國際法化，所以……"],["沈委員發惠：所以現在目前用國際公約的標準來……"],["李秘書長俊俋：基本上我們原則希望如此，但是要逐步達成。"],["沈委員發惠：因為現在事實上國內法裡對酷刑並沒有定義。"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：所以你這一條在酷刑這個部分，人權團體會有這部分的一些討論。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["沈委員發惠：另外我們在這一條裡面最後規定是「依法處理及救濟」，這個會不會有點空？目前的作法是怎麼樣？是做什麼樣的處理或救濟？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分我是不是請人權會代理執行秘書跟您答復？"],["沈委員發惠：好，可以。"],["主席：請代理執行秘書。"],["邱代理執行秘書秀蘭：委員好，有關於我們在組織法第二條第一款提到的，對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分，我們依法處理跟救濟，這個部分目前我們是會接受相關依照職權或陳情人的調查，我們會來做處理……"],["沈委員發惠：處理？我現在就要問所謂處理，你們現在目前是怎麼處理？"],["邱代理執行秘書秀蘭：我們的處理，如果要調查的話，我們會經過我們……"],["沈委員發惠：不是，按照這一條最後的結果，並「依法處理及救濟」，這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理及救濟？"],["邱代理執行秘書秀蘭：我們的調查相關結果，可能會函詢給相關的陳情人，把相關的調查結果告知，我們也會把調查的結果函給涉及的相關行政機關來做處理。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我們就一個文去就對了？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟委員報告，更完整一點，如果經過人權委員會的調查，認為有些部分需要處理，涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來，如果有其他行政上的部分，我們會送給這個行政機關……"],["沈委員發惠：時間的關係，這個部分我認為目前的條文所謂的處理跟救濟，事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思，未來這個部分要做一些明確化，要不然這個法條會空洞化，所謂處理與救濟會變成不曉得的處理程序，目前我們也沒有相關職權行使的規定，到底做什麼處理也不知道，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，這個就是我們這一次送法來的目的……"],["沈委員發惠：對，我希望在整個修法的過程中，必須要把所謂處理跟救濟這樣子的程序要把它法制化。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["沈委員發惠：再來，我跟你討論一個問題，最近大家對於資安的部分有很多討論，行政院在前年8月31日通過行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引，有制定一個行政指導原則參考指引，監察院裡面也有提到有關公營事業、公立學校、行政法人使用AI的參考指引，目前監察業務、監委的巡察工作，各機關有沒有依據生成式AI的參考指引來執行，有沒有納入我們目前的巡察工作。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我分三個部分跟沈委員回應，第一個部分，有關AI的生成，其實我們委員也有自動調查當中，這是第一個。第二個，這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是有什麼樣的相關意見，我們在去年年底的行政院巡察有跟行政院再提出這個問題。第三個部分是有關對生成式AI的部分，我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案討論，我們有一個研究案。"],["沈委員發惠：我看到國家人權委員會的中程策略計畫裡面也有特別提到。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們也有研究案。"],["沈委員發惠：但是我剛剛的問題是，目前你們的監察業務，尤其是監委的這些巡察工作，行政機關有沒有按照AI生成指引來執行，有沒有把它納入稽查重點。"],["李秘書長俊俋：有，就是我剛剛跟委員報告的，我們去年的行政院巡察裡面，有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情，今年的巡察裡面我們還會追蹤。"],["沈委員發惠：我現在提的不是跟行政院提醒，而是你在巡察各個機關的時候，有沒有瞭解這些機關到底有沒有按照這個指引來執行？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們明年中央巡察的時候就會把這個列為項目之一。"],["沈委員發惠：因為時間關係，我本來還有一個問題要跟你請教，我就請李秘書長帶回去，監察院可以再來做一個檢討，事實上，監察院是一個獨立單位，所以在資通安全的部分可以擔任一個獨立的稽核單位，這個部分在行政院遵循資安等級的法遵事項裡面就有提到，國家應該要有一個資通安全的獨立稽核單位，事實上，我個人認為監察院是適合扮演這個角色的，這部分請秘書長回去研究，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，我們研究，不過這個部分現在目前不是監察院的職權。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道目前不是，但我認為你們應該可以擔任這樣的角色，以上。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝李秘書長。主席在這邊做一個說明，根據憲法第七十一條，立法院開會時，關係院院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見，今天我們的議程安排是由監察院來報告113年度的立法計畫，形式上跟立法院對於行政院各部會行使職權質詢是些許不同，建議委員可以參考憲法第七十一條的精神本旨來瞭解監察院在本年度的立法計畫，因為這是屬於本院的權責。","請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","羅智強","傅崐萁","林思銘","吳宗憲","謝龍介","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 670.864, \"end\": 670.884, \"score\": 0.011}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 672.093, \"end\": 672.293, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 672.293, \"end\": 672.354, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 672.354, \"end\": 672.374, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 672.374, \"end\": 672.394, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,361 --> 00:00:34,993\n主席有請李秘書長有請李秘書長沈委員早李秘書長早這個剛才我先請教一下你今天是以這個你現在是監察委員嗎我現在是監察院秘書長所以你不是監察委員不是委員\n\n2\n00:00:36,260 --> 00:00:58,872\n那所謂秘書長大概基本上是什麼樣的一個角色秘書長的概念就是一個幕僚長就是我們如何把行政工作相關的資料準備還有其他的部分做好讓委員跟院長副院長能夠順利的執行職權所以你做一個幕僚長你可以指揮說哪個監委你辦了幾個案件監察委員獨立行使職權這個連院長都沒有辦法指派\n\n3\n00:01:04,955 --> 00:01:34,168\n那你可以你現在你代表監察院的秘書長身份來這裡你可以在這裡說現在委員平均一年辦幾個案子太多了或太少了這個我沒有這樣的權利因為監察委員本來就是依照憲法的規定獨立行使職權所以你今天來這裡你也不是立法委員所以你今天來立法院你現在不是立法委員我當然不是所以你也不能在這裡表示你個人對於監察委員的哪一個現在辦的案子怎麼樣都不能\n\n4\n00:01:34,508 --> 00:02:00,825\n所以即使過去你擔任立法委員的時候你對監察院職務的行使有多少的意見你今天以幕僚長的身份來這裡你可以在這裡表達意見嗎?不可以所以把你過去的在立法院講的話來這裡來問你說你今天幕僚長你表示你的意見這是適當嗎?這個留給社會做公平所以我覺得這個質詢今天任何一個人不要說監察院\n\n5\n00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:17,370\n你今天韓國瑜你當總統候選人跟你今天當立法院院長你站在上面你講的話你說你今天你總統大選的時候你不是講嗎你不是講喝酒跳舞嗎你現在當立法院院長你可以在台上主席台上講喝酒跳舞嗎\n\n6\n00:02:18,740 --> 00:02:43,015\n所以這個角色每一個角色我想在這個質詢當中我們大家還是要就事論事今天來是這個監察院的秘書長不管他叫做李俊毅他叫做王八蛋他叫做什麼都一樣任何人來的他就代表立法院幕僚長他能夠回答的就是針對他幕僚長角色可以回答的問題是謝謝沈惠文我也認為這樣我就是今天就是以監察院秘書長的身份來\n\n7\n00:02:44,676 --> 00:02:53,541\n接下來齁這個我想我請問剛剛有提到這個監察法有提到這個監察法的這個修正齁\n\n8\n00:02:55,841 --> 00:03:23,019\n這個秘書長你有提到說你們這個會期這個會期內會再送一次再送立法院我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使的專章在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來這個是上一屆有送但是沒有通過上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完畢了都審查完畢了對已經審查完畢了審查完畢最後草野協商沒有草野協商所以就沒有對相關問題所以他這個戒期不連續對是這個狀況嘛\n\n9\n00:03:25,300 --> 00:03:39,778\n那因此我們這次再送,如果我們在這個會期內再送,你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次,還是你們會參酌上一屆審查完均之後所調整的這個條文來送?\n\n10\n00:03:42,381 --> 00:04:11,576\n我跟沈委員報告因為上一屆送來在司法委員審查的時候我們的立法委員們有很多的意見那我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見我們會做若干的調整基本上會做調整跟上一屆的這個但是我們還是要完成他的程序就是必須我們整個討論以後然後送到我們院會院會通過以後我們才會送到立法院來所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來這個部分我想你們\n\n11\n00:04:12,197 --> 00:04:13,790\n理論上應該因為上一屆在審整個審查\n\n12\n00:04:15,441 --> 00:04:41,669\n完均之後的條文事實上做了很多的跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整上次有保留三條那這個部分我們會做討論然後或者做一部分的修正然後再送進來我希望的就是這樣不要說上一屆送的條文這一屆又送進來同樣的這個上一屆大家有意見保留的條文你再原封不動的送進來我們已經開始進行討論程序了\n\n13\n00:04:44,090 --> 00:04:58,297\n那這裡面齁我特別特別齁就是要在這裡除了這個監察法以外齁我們目前這個監察院國家人權委員會的組織法齁裡面有關這個第二條第一款齁這個有關這個\n\n14\n00:05:02,469 --> 00:05:18,980\n這個我們國家人權委員會目前對於人權委員會對涉及酷刑侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視的事件進行調查並依法處理或救濟這是目前的這個國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款\n\n15\n00:05:20,165 --> 00:05:47,600\n那這個部分呢我特別特別要這個跟李秘書長來討論一下就是第一個就是說所謂涉及酷刑這個酷刑這兩個字齁在目前法律上面他有其他的定義嗎什麼樣叫做酷刑我的了解是沒有明確的定義但是這個我們有巴黎原則底下的所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引所以我們現在是按照什麼你剛剛講酷刑公約\n\n16\n00:05:48,140 --> 00:05:48,180\n另外這個﹖\n\n17\n00:06:16,545 --> 00:06:33,245\n我們在這一條裡面規定最後就是說依法處理或救濟齁這個會不會有點空我目前的做法是怎麼樣處理或救濟做什麼樣處理或救濟這個部分我是不是請人權會的副執行秘書跟您打破好可以請副執行秘書\n\n18\n00:06:35,134 --> 00:06:55,185\n委員好有關於我們在組織法的第二條的第一款提到的對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分我們來依法處理跟救濟那這部分我目前我們是會接受相關的依照職權或陳情的調查我們會來做處理處理我現在就要問說這個所謂處理是你們現在目前是怎麼處理\n\n19\n00:06:56,234 --> 00:07:24,749\n我們的處理我們就是會如果要調查的話我們要經過不是調查處理按照這一條最後的結果並依法處理及救濟這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理我們的調查我們在相關的結果如果我們可能會函詢給相關的陳情人把相關的我們調查的結果告知然後我們也會把調查的結果函給相關的行政機關涉及相關行政機關來做處理處理我們所以我們就一個文區就對了\n\n20\n00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:43,988\n我跟委員報告這更完整一點如果經過人權委員會的調查認為有些部分需要處理涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來那如果有其他的部分行政上的部分我們會送給這個時間的關係時間的關係這個部分我認為現在目前條文所謂的處理跟救濟事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思這個我們未來這個部分要做一些明確化這個法條會空洞化\n\n21\n00:07:54,585 --> 00:07:54,765\n沈發惠議員\n\n22\n00:08:13,342 --> 00:08:40,191\n再來我跟您討論一個問題目前大家對於資安的部分有很多的討論我們行政院在前年的8月31號通過一個行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引制定一個行政指導原則參考指引這個部分\n\n23\n00:08:41,546 --> 00:08:49,465\n這個部分齁這個因為我們在這個我們自己齁我們在這個監察院裡面我們也有提到說有關的這個這個\n\n24\n00:08:52,294 --> 00:09:16,671\n這個公營事業公益學校行政法人使用AI用這個參考指引來那目前我們這個這個監我們的監察的業務監委的巡迴工作目前有沒有把這樣子使用AI這個各機關他有沒有依照這樣子生成式AI的參考指引有沒有依據這個這個指引來執行有沒有納入我們目前的這個這個巡查工作好\n\n25\n00:09:17,351 --> 00:09:36,491\n這個部分我分3個部分跟沈委員回應第一個部分有關AI的生成其實我們委員也有在自動調查當中這是第一個第二個就是這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是會有什麼樣相關的意見我們在去年年底的行政院巡查的時候我們有跟行政院在提出這個問題第三個部分\n\n26\n00:09:40,074 --> 00:09:54,334\n第三個部分是有關AI這個對生成式AI的部分我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案的討論我看到你們國家人權委員會的這個裝成策略計畫裡面也有提到有特別提到但是我剛剛的問題是說\n\n27\n00:09:55,996 --> 00:10:04,384\n你們目前這個監察業務尤其是監委的這些巡查工作有沒有把AI的這個行政機關有沒有按照AI相聲指引來執行就是我們在去年的這個行政院的巡查裡面我們有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情那今年的巡查裡面\n\n28\n00:10:16,937 --> 00:10:40,973\n我現在提的不是說跟行政院提醒而是說跟各個機關你在巡查各個機關的時候你有沒有瞭解這些機關它到底有沒有按照這個執意我們明年中央巡查的時候就會把這個列為項目之一我時間關係我本來還有一個問題要跟你請教那我再請林立法院帶回去你們監察院可以來做個檢討就是我們事實上這個監察院它是一個獨立的單位\n\n29\n00:10:44,656 --> 00:11:10,884\n他事實上在我們的資通安全的這些部分他可以擔任一個獨立的集合單位這個部分我們在行政院遵循資安等級的法尊事項就有提到國家應該要有一個就資通安全的獨立的集合單位我個人是認為監察院事實上是適合扮演這個角色的這部分請秘書長回去研究好不好\n\n30\n00:11:12,093 --> 00:11:12,394\n謝謝沈委員謝謝李秘書長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11361\t34993\t主席有請李秘書長有請李秘書長沈委員早李秘書長早這個剛才我先請教一下你今天是以這個你現在是監察委員嗎我現在是監察院秘書長所以你不是監察委員不是委員\n36260\t58872\t那所謂秘書長大概基本上是什麼樣的一個角色秘書長的概念就是一個幕僚長就是我們如何把行政工作相關的資料準備還有其他的部分做好讓委員跟院長副院長能夠順利的執行職權所以你做一個幕僚長你可以指揮說哪個監委你辦了幾個案件監察委員獨立行使職權這個連院長都沒有辦法指派\n64955\t94168\t那你可以你現在你代表監察院的秘書長身份來這裡你可以在這裡說現在委員平均一年辦幾個案子太多了或太少了這個我沒有這樣的權利因為監察委員本來就是依照憲法的規定獨立行使職權所以你今天來這裡你也不是立法委員所以你今天來立法院你現在不是立法委員我當然不是所以你也不能在這裡表示你個人對於監察委員的哪一個現在辦的案子怎麼樣都不能\n94508\t120825\t所以即使過去你擔任立法委員的時候你對監察院職務的行使有多少的意見你今天以幕僚長的身份來這裡你可以在這裡表達意見嗎?不可以所以把你過去的在立法院講的話來這裡來問你說你今天幕僚長你表示你的意見這是適當嗎?這個留給社會做公平所以我覺得這個質詢今天任何一個人不要說監察院\n121840\t137370\t你今天韓國瑜你當總統候選人跟你今天當立法院院長你站在上面你講的話你說你今天你總統大選的時候你不是講嗎你不是講喝酒跳舞嗎你現在當立法院院長你可以在台上主席台上講喝酒跳舞嗎\n138740\t163015\t所以這個角色每一個角色我想在這個質詢當中我們大家還是要就事論事今天來是這個監察院的秘書長不管他叫做李俊毅他叫做王八蛋他叫做什麼都一樣任何人來的他就代表立法院幕僚長他能夠回答的就是針對他幕僚長角色可以回答的問題是 謝謝沈惠文我也認為這樣我就是今天就是以監察院秘書長的身份來\n164676\t173541\t接下來齁這個我想我請問剛剛有提到這個監察法有提到這個監察法的這個修正齁\n175841\t203019\t這個秘書長你有提到說你們這個會期這個會期內會再送一次再送立法院我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使的專章在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來這個是上一屆有送但是沒有通過上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完畢了都審查完畢了對 已經審查完畢了審查完畢最後草野協商沒有草野協商所以就沒有對 相關問題所以他這個戒期不連續對 是這個狀況嘛\n205300\t219778\t那因此我們這次再送,如果我們在這個會期內再送,你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次,還是你們會參酌上一屆審查完均之後所調整的這個條文來送?\n222381\t251576\t我跟沈委員報告因為上一屆送來在司法委員審查的時候我們的立法委員們有很多的意見那我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見我們會做若干的調整基本上會做調整跟上一屆的這個但是我們還是要完成他的程序就是必須我們整個討論以後然後送到我們院會院會通過以後我們才會送到立法院來所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來這個部分我想你們\n252197\t253790\t理論上應該因為上一屆在審整個審查\n255441\t281669\t完均之後的條文事實上做了很多的跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整上次有保留三條那這個部分我們會做討論然後或者做一部分的修正然後再送進來我希望的就是這樣不要說上一屆送的條文這一屆又送進來同樣的這個上一屆大家有意見保留的條文你再原封不動的送進來我們已經開始進行討論程序了\n284090\t298297\t那這裡面齁我特別特別齁就是要在這裡除了這個監察法以外齁我們目前這個監察院國家人權委員會的組織法齁裡面有關這個第二條第一款齁這個有關這個\n302469\t318980\t這個我們國家人權委員會目前對於人權委員會對涉及酷刑侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視的事件進行調查並依法處理或救濟這是目前的這個國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款\n320165\t347600\t那這個部分呢我特別特別要這個跟李秘書長來討論一下就是第一個就是說所謂涉及酷刑這個酷刑這兩個字齁在目前法律上面他有其他的定義嗎什麼樣叫做酷刑我的了解是沒有明確的定義但是這個我們有巴黎原則底下的所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引所以我們現在是按照什麼你剛剛講酷刑公約\n348140\t348180\t另外這個﹖\n376545\t393245\t我們在這一條裡面規定最後就是說依法處理或救濟齁這個會不會有點空我目前的做法是怎麼樣處理或救濟做什麼樣處理或救濟這個部分我是不是請人權會的副執行秘書跟您打破好可以請副執行秘書\n395134\t415185\t委員好有關於我們在組織法的第二條的第一款提到的對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分我們來依法處理跟救濟那這部分我目前我們是會接受相關的依照職權或陳情的調查我們會來做處理處理我現在就要問說這個所謂處理是你們現在目前是怎麼處理\n416234\t444749\t我們的處理我們就是會如果要調查的話我們要經過不是調查處理按照這一條最後的結果並依法處理及救濟這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理我們的調查我們在相關的結果如果我們可能會函詢給相關的陳情人把相關的我們調查的結果告知然後我們也會把調查的結果函給相關的行政機關涉及相關行政機關來做處理處理我們所以我們就一個文區就對了\n446360\t463988\t我跟委員報告這更完整一點如果經過人權委員會的調查認為有些部分需要處理涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來那如果有其他的部分行政上的部分我們會送給這個時間的關係時間的關係這個部分我認為現在目前條文所謂的處理跟救濟事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思這個我們未來這個部分要做一些明確化這個法條會空洞化\n474585\t474765\t沈發惠議員\n493342\t520191\t再來我跟您討論一個問題目前大家對於資安的部分有很多的討論我們行政院在前年的8月31號通過一個行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引制定一個行政指導原則參考指引這個部分\n521546\t529465\t這個部分齁這個因為我們在這個我們自己齁我們在這個監察院裡面我們也有提到說有關的這個這個\n532294\t556671\t這個公營事業公益學校行政法人使用AI用這個參考指引來那目前我們這個這個監我們的監察的業務監委的巡迴工作目前有沒有把這樣子使用AI這個各機關他有沒有依照這樣子生成式AI的參考指引有沒有依據這個這個指引來執行有沒有納入我們目前的這個這個巡查工作好\n557351\t576491\t這個部分我分3個部分跟沈委員回應第一個部分有關AI的生成其實我們委員也有在自動調查當中這是第一個第二個就是這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是會有什麼樣相關的意見我們在去年年底的行政院巡查的時候我們有跟行政院在提出這個問題第三個部分\n580074\t594334\t第三個部分是有關AI這個對生成式AI的部分我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案的討論我看到你們國家人權委員會的這個裝成策略計畫裡面也有提到有特別提到但是我剛剛的問題是說\n595996\t604384\t你們目前這個監察業務尤其是監委的這些巡查工作有沒有把AI的這個行政機關有沒有按照AI相聲指引來執行就是我們在去年的這個行政院的巡查裡面我們有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情那今年的巡查裡面\n616937\t640973\t我現在提的不是說跟行政院提醒而是說跟各個機關你在巡查各個機關的時候你有沒有瞭解這些機關它到底有沒有按照這個執意我們明年中央巡查的時候就會把這個列為項目之一我時間關係我本來還有一個問題要跟你請教那我再請林立法院帶回去你們監察院可以來做個檢討就是我們事實上這個監察院它是一個獨立的單位\n644656\t670884\t他事實上在我們的資通安全的這些部分他可以擔任一個獨立的集合單位這個部分我們在行政院遵循資安等級的法尊事項就有提到國家應該要有一個就資通安全的獨立的集合單位我個人是認為監察院事實上是適合扮演這個角色的這部分請秘書長回去研究好不好\n672093\t672394\t謝謝沈委員 謝謝李秘書長\n","txt":"主席有請李秘書長有請李秘書長沈委員早李秘書長早這個剛才我先請教一下你今天是以這個你現在是監察委員嗎我現在是監察院秘書長所以你不是監察委員不是委員\n那所謂秘書長大概基本上是什麼樣的一個角色秘書長的概念就是一個幕僚長就是我們如何把行政工作相關的資料準備還有其他的部分做好讓委員跟院長副院長能夠順利的執行職權所以你做一個幕僚長你可以指揮說哪個監委你辦了幾個案件監察委員獨立行使職權這個連院長都沒有辦法指派\n那你可以你現在你代表監察院的秘書長身份來這裡你可以在這裡說現在委員平均一年辦幾個案子太多了或太少了這個我沒有這樣的權利因為監察委員本來就是依照憲法的規定獨立行使職權所以你今天來這裡你也不是立法委員所以你今天來立法院你現在不是立法委員我當然不是所以你也不能在這裡表示你個人對於監察委員的哪一個現在辦的案子怎麼樣都不能\n所以即使過去你擔任立法委員的時候你對監察院職務的行使有多少的意見你今天以幕僚長的身份來這裡你可以在這裡表達意見嗎?不可以所以把你過去的在立法院講的話來這裡來問你說你今天幕僚長你表示你的意見這是適當嗎?這個留給社會做公平所以我覺得這個質詢今天任何一個人不要說監察院\n你今天韓國瑜你當總統候選人跟你今天當立法院院長你站在上面你講的話你說你今天你總統大選的時候你不是講嗎你不是講喝酒跳舞嗎你現在當立法院院長你可以在台上主席台上講喝酒跳舞嗎\n所以這個角色每一個角色我想在這個質詢當中我們大家還是要就事論事今天來是這個監察院的秘書長不管他叫做李俊毅他叫做王八蛋他叫做什麼都一樣任何人來的他就代表立法院幕僚長他能夠回答的就是針對他幕僚長角色可以回答的問題是 謝謝沈惠文我也認為這樣我就是今天就是以監察院秘書長的身份來\n接下來齁這個我想我請問剛剛有提到這個監察法有提到這個監察法的這個修正齁\n這個秘書長你有提到說你們這個會期這個會期內會再送一次再送立法院我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使的專章在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來這個是上一屆有送但是沒有通過上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完畢了都審查完畢了對 已經審查完畢了審查完畢最後草野協商沒有草野協商所以就沒有對 相關問題所以他這個戒期不連續對 是這個狀況嘛\n那因此我們這次再送,如果我們在這個會期內再送,你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次,還是你們會參酌上一屆審查完均之後所調整的這個條文來送?\n我跟沈委員報告因為上一屆送來在司法委員審查的時候我們的立法委員們有很多的意見那我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見我們會做若干的調整基本上會做調整跟上一屆的這個但是我們還是要完成他的程序就是必須我們整個討論以後然後送到我們院會院會通過以後我們才會送到立法院來所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來這個部分我想你們\n理論上應該因為上一屆在審整個審查\n完均之後的條文事實上做了很多的跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整上次有保留三條那這個部分我們會做討論然後或者做一部分的修正然後再送進來我希望的就是這樣不要說上一屆送的條文這一屆又送進來同樣的這個上一屆大家有意見保留的條文你再原封不動的送進來我們已經開始進行討論程序了\n那這裡面齁我特別特別齁就是要在這裡除了這個監察法以外齁我們目前這個監察院國家人權委員會的組織法齁裡面有關這個第二條第一款齁這個有關這個\n這個我們國家人權委員會目前對於人權委員會對涉及酷刑侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視的事件進行調查並依法處理或救濟這是目前的這個國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款\n那這個部分呢我特別特別要這個跟李秘書長來討論一下就是第一個就是說所謂涉及酷刑這個酷刑這兩個字齁在目前法律上面他有其他的定義嗎什麼樣叫做酷刑我的了解是沒有明確的定義但是這個我們有巴黎原則底下的所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引所以我們現在是按照什麼你剛剛講酷刑公約\n另外這個﹖\n我們在這一條裡面規定最後就是說依法處理或救濟齁這個會不會有點空我目前的做法是怎麼樣處理或救濟做什麼樣處理或救濟這個部分我是不是請人權會的副執行秘書跟您打破好可以請副執行秘書\n委員好有關於我們在組織法的第二條的第一款提到的對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分我們來依法處理跟救濟那這部分我目前我們是會接受相關的依照職權或陳情的調查我們會來做處理處理我現在就要問說這個所謂處理是你們現在目前是怎麼處理\n我們的處理我們就是會如果要調查的話我們要經過不是調查處理按照這一條最後的結果並依法處理及救濟這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理我們的調查我們在相關的結果如果我們可能會函詢給相關的陳情人把相關的我們調查的結果告知然後我們也會把調查的結果函給相關的行政機關涉及相關行政機關來做處理處理我們所以我們就一個文區就對了\n我跟委員報告這更完整一點如果經過人權委員會的調查認為有些部分需要處理涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來那如果有其他的部分行政上的部分我們會送給這個時間的關係時間的關係這個部分我認為現在目前條文所謂的處理跟救濟事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思這個我們未來這個部分要做一些明確化這個法條會空洞化\n沈發惠議員\n再來我跟您討論一個問題目前大家對於資安的部分有很多的討論我們行政院在前年的8月31號通過一個行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引制定一個行政指導原則參考指引這個部分\n這個部分齁這個因為我們在這個我們自己齁我們在這個監察院裡面我們也有提到說有關的這個這個\n這個公營事業公益學校行政法人使用AI用這個參考指引來那目前我們這個這個監我們的監察的業務監委的巡迴工作目前有沒有把這樣子使用AI這個各機關他有沒有依照這樣子生成式AI的參考指引有沒有依據這個這個指引來執行有沒有納入我們目前的這個這個巡查工作好\n這個部分我分3個部分跟沈委員回應第一個部分有關AI的生成其實我們委員也有在自動調查當中這是第一個第二個就是這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是會有什麼樣相關的意見我們在去年年底的行政院巡查的時候我們有跟行政院在提出這個問題第三個部分\n第三個部分是有關AI這個對生成式AI的部分我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案的討論我看到你們國家人權委員會的這個裝成策略計畫裡面也有提到有特別提到但是我剛剛的問題是說\n你們目前這個監察業務尤其是監委的這些巡查工作有沒有把AI的這個行政機關有沒有按照AI相聲指引來執行就是我們在去年的這個行政院的巡查裡面我們有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情那今年的巡查裡面\n我現在提的不是說跟行政院提醒而是說跟各個機關你在巡查各個機關的時候你有沒有瞭解這些機關它到底有沒有按照這個執意我們明年中央巡查的時候就會把這個列為項目之一我時間關係我本來還有一個問題要跟你請教那我再請林立法院帶回去你們監察院可以來做個檢討就是我們事實上這個監察院它是一個獨立的單位\n他事實上在我們的資通安全的這些部分他可以擔任一個獨立的集合單位這個部分我們在行政院遵循資安等級的法尊事項就有提到國家應該要有一個就資通安全的獨立的集合單位我個人是認為監察院事實上是適合扮演這個角色的這部分請秘書長回去研究好不好\n謝謝沈委員 謝謝李秘書長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.361 --> 00:34.993\n主席有請李秘書長有請李秘書長沈委員早李秘書長早這個剛才我先請教一下你今天是以這個你現在是監察委員嗎我現在是監察院秘書長所以你不是監察委員不是委員\n\n00:36.260 --> 00:58.872\n那所謂秘書長大概基本上是什麼樣的一個角色秘書長的概念就是一個幕僚長就是我們如何把行政工作相關的資料準備還有其他的部分做好讓委員跟院長副院長能夠順利的執行職權所以你做一個幕僚長你可以指揮說哪個監委你辦了幾個案件監察委員獨立行使職權這個連院長都沒有辦法指派\n\n01:04.955 --> 01:34.168\n那你可以你現在你代表監察院的秘書長身份來這裡你可以在這裡說現在委員平均一年辦幾個案子太多了或太少了這個我沒有這樣的權利因為監察委員本來就是依照憲法的規定獨立行使職權所以你今天來這裡你也不是立法委員所以你今天來立法院你現在不是立法委員我當然不是所以你也不能在這裡表示你個人對於監察委員的哪一個現在辦的案子怎麼樣都不能\n\n01:34.508 --> 02:00.825\n所以即使過去你擔任立法委員的時候你對監察院職務的行使有多少的意見你今天以幕僚長的身份來這裡你可以在這裡表達意見嗎?不可以所以把你過去的在立法院講的話來這裡來問你說你今天幕僚長你表示你的意見這是適當嗎?這個留給社會做公平所以我覺得這個質詢今天任何一個人不要說監察院\n\n02:01.840 --> 02:17.370\n你今天韓國瑜你當總統候選人跟你今天當立法院院長你站在上面你講的話你說你今天你總統大選的時候你不是講嗎你不是講喝酒跳舞嗎你現在當立法院院長你可以在台上主席台上講喝酒跳舞嗎\n\n02:18.740 --> 02:43.015\n所以這個角色每一個角色我想在這個質詢當中我們大家還是要就事論事今天來是這個監察院的秘書長不管他叫做李俊毅他叫做王八蛋他叫做什麼都一樣任何人來的他就代表立法院幕僚長他能夠回答的就是針對他幕僚長角色可以回答的問題是謝謝沈惠文我也認為這樣我就是今天就是以監察院秘書長的身份來\n\n02:44.676 --> 02:53.541\n接下來齁這個我想我請問剛剛有提到這個監察法有提到這個監察法的這個修正齁\n\n02:55.841 --> 03:23.019\n這個秘書長你有提到說你們這個會期這個會期內會再送一次再送立法院我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使的專章在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來這個是上一屆有送但是沒有通過上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完畢了都審查完畢了對已經審查完畢了審查完畢最後草野協商沒有草野協商所以就沒有對相關問題所以他這個戒期不連續對是這個狀況嘛\n\n03:25.300 --> 03:39.778\n那因此我們這次再送,如果我們在這個會期內再送,你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次,還是你們會參酌上一屆審查完均之後所調整的這個條文來送?\n\n03:42.381 --> 04:11.576\n我跟沈委員報告因為上一屆送來在司法委員審查的時候我們的立法委員們有很多的意見那我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見我們會做若干的調整基本上會做調整跟上一屆的這個但是我們還是要完成他的程序就是必須我們整個討論以後然後送到我們院會院會通過以後我們才會送到立法院來所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來這個部分我想你們\n\n04:12.197 --> 04:13.790\n理論上應該因為上一屆在審整個審查\n\n04:15.441 --> 04:41.669\n完均之後的條文事實上做了很多的跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整上次有保留三條那這個部分我們會做討論然後或者做一部分的修正然後再送進來我希望的就是這樣不要說上一屆送的條文這一屆又送進來同樣的這個上一屆大家有意見保留的條文你再原封不動的送進來我們已經開始進行討論程序了\n\n04:44.090 --> 04:58.297\n那這裡面齁我特別特別齁就是要在這裡除了這個監察法以外齁我們目前這個監察院國家人權委員會的組織法齁裡面有關這個第二條第一款齁這個有關這個\n\n05:02.469 --> 05:18.980\n這個我們國家人權委員會目前對於人權委員會對涉及酷刑侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視的事件進行調查並依法處理或救濟這是目前的這個國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款\n\n05:20.165 --> 05:47.600\n那這個部分呢我特別特別要這個跟李秘書長來討論一下就是第一個就是說所謂涉及酷刑這個酷刑這兩個字齁在目前法律上面他有其他的定義嗎什麼樣叫做酷刑我的了解是沒有明確的定義但是這個我們有巴黎原則底下的所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引所以我們現在是按照什麼你剛剛講酷刑公約\n\n05:48.140 --> 05:48.180\n另外這個﹖\n\n06:16.545 --> 06:33.245\n我們在這一條裡面規定最後就是說依法處理或救濟齁這個會不會有點空我目前的做法是怎麼樣處理或救濟做什麼樣處理或救濟這個部分我是不是請人權會的副執行秘書跟您打破好可以請副執行秘書\n\n06:35.134 --> 06:55.185\n委員好有關於我們在組織法的第二條的第一款提到的對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分我們來依法處理跟救濟那這部分我目前我們是會接受相關的依照職權或陳情的調查我們會來做處理處理我現在就要問說這個所謂處理是你們現在目前是怎麼處理\n\n06:56.234 --> 07:24.749\n我們的處理我們就是會如果要調查的話我們要經過不是調查處理按照這一條最後的結果並依法處理及救濟這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理我們的調查我們在相關的結果如果我們可能會函詢給相關的陳情人把相關的我們調查的結果告知然後我們也會把調查的結果函給相關的行政機關涉及相關行政機關來做處理處理我們所以我們就一個文區就對了\n\n07:26.360 --> 07:43.988\n我跟委員報告這更完整一點如果經過人權委員會的調查認為有些部分需要處理涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來那如果有其他的部分行政上的部分我們會送給這個時間的關係時間的關係這個部分我認為現在目前條文所謂的處理跟救濟事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思這個我們未來這個部分要做一些明確化這個法條會空洞化\n\n07:54.585 --> 07:54.765\n沈發惠議員\n\n08:13.342 --> 08:40.191\n再來我跟您討論一個問題目前大家對於資安的部分有很多的討論我們行政院在前年的8月31號通過一個行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引制定一個行政指導原則參考指引這個部分\n\n08:41.546 --> 08:49.465\n這個部分齁這個因為我們在這個我們自己齁我們在這個監察院裡面我們也有提到說有關的這個這個\n\n08:52.294 --> 09:16.671\n這個公營事業公益學校行政法人使用AI用這個參考指引來那目前我們這個這個監我們的監察的業務監委的巡迴工作目前有沒有把這樣子使用AI這個各機關他有沒有依照這樣子生成式AI的參考指引有沒有依據這個這個指引來執行有沒有納入我們目前的這個這個巡查工作好\n\n09:17.351 --> 09:36.491\n這個部分我分3個部分跟沈委員回應第一個部分有關AI的生成其實我們委員也有在自動調查當中這是第一個第二個就是這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是會有什麼樣相關的意見我們在去年年底的行政院巡查的時候我們有跟行政院在提出這個問題第三個部分\n\n09:40.074 --> 09:54.334\n第三個部分是有關AI這個對生成式AI的部分我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案的討論我看到你們國家人權委員會的這個裝成策略計畫裡面也有提到有特別提到但是我剛剛的問題是說\n\n09:55.996 --> 10:04.384\n你們目前這個監察業務尤其是監委的這些巡查工作有沒有把AI的這個行政機關有沒有按照AI相聲指引來執行就是我們在去年的這個行政院的巡查裡面我們有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情那今年的巡查裡面\n\n10:16.937 --> 10:40.973\n我現在提的不是說跟行政院提醒而是說跟各個機關你在巡查各個機關的時候你有沒有瞭解這些機關它到底有沒有按照這個執意我們明年中央巡查的時候就會把這個列為項目之一我時間關係我本來還有一個問題要跟你請教那我再請林立法院帶回去你們監察院可以來做個檢討就是我們事實上這個監察院它是一個獨立的單位\n\n10:44.656 --> 11:10.884\n他事實上在我們的資通安全的這些部分他可以擔任一個獨立的集合單位這個部分我們在行政院遵循資安等級的法尊事項就有提到國家應該要有一個就資通安全的獨立的集合單位我個人是認為監察院事實上是適合扮演這個角色的這部分請秘書長回去研究好不好\n\n11:12.093 --> 11:12.394\n謝謝沈委員謝謝李秘書長\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.361,"end":34.993,"text":"主席有請李秘書長有請李秘書長沈委員早李秘書長早這個剛才我先請教一下你今天是以這個你現在是監察委員嗎我現在是監察院秘書長所以你不是監察委員不是委員"},{"start":36.26,"end":58.872,"text":"那所謂秘書長大概基本上是什麼樣的一個角色秘書長的概念就是一個幕僚長就是我們如何把行政工作相關的資料準備還有其他的部分做好讓委員跟院長副院長能夠順利的執行職權所以你做一個幕僚長你可以指揮說哪個監委你辦了幾個案件監察委員獨立行使職權這個連院長都沒有辦法指派"},{"start":64.955,"end":94.168,"text":"那你可以你現在你代表監察院的秘書長身份來這裡你可以在這裡說現在委員平均一年辦幾個案子太多了或太少了這個我沒有這樣的權利因為監察委員本來就是依照憲法的規定獨立行使職權所以你今天來這裡你也不是立法委員所以你今天來立法院你現在不是立法委員我當然不是所以你也不能在這裡表示你個人對於監察委員的哪一個現在辦的案子怎麼樣都不能"},{"start":94.508,"end":120.825,"text":"所以即使過去你擔任立法委員的時候你對監察院職務的行使有多少的意見你今天以幕僚長的身份來這裡你可以在這裡表達意見嗎?不可以所以把你過去的在立法院講的話來這裡來問你說你今天幕僚長你表示你的意見這是適當嗎?這個留給社會做公平所以我覺得這個質詢今天任何一個人不要說監察院"},{"start":121.84,"end":137.37,"text":"你今天韓國瑜你當總統候選人跟你今天當立法院院長你站在上面你講的話你說你今天你總統大選的時候你不是講嗎你不是講喝酒跳舞嗎你現在當立法院院長你可以在台上主席台上講喝酒跳舞嗎"},{"start":138.74,"end":163.015,"text":"所以這個角色每一個角色我想在這個質詢當中我們大家還是要就事論事今天來是這個監察院的秘書長不管他叫做李俊毅他叫做王八蛋他叫做什麼都一樣任何人來的他就代表立法院幕僚長他能夠回答的就是針對他幕僚長角色可以回答的問題是 謝謝沈惠文我也認為這樣我就是今天就是以監察院秘書長的身份來"},{"start":164.676,"end":173.541,"text":"接下來齁這個我想我請問剛剛有提到這個監察法有提到這個監察法的這個修正齁"},{"start":175.841,"end":203.019,"text":"這個秘書長你有提到說你們這個會期這個會期內會再送一次再送立法院我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使的專章在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來這個是上一屆有送但是沒有通過上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完畢了都審查完畢了對 已經審查完畢了審查完畢最後草野協商沒有草野協商所以就沒有對 相關問題所以他這個戒期不連續對 是這個狀況嘛"},{"start":205.3,"end":219.778,"text":"那因此我們這次再送,如果我們在這個會期內再送,你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次,還是你們會參酌上一屆審查完均之後所調整的這個條文來送?"},{"start":222.381,"end":251.576,"text":"我跟沈委員報告因為上一屆送來在司法委員審查的時候我們的立法委員們有很多的意見那我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見我們會做若干的調整基本上會做調整跟上一屆的這個但是我們還是要完成他的程序就是必須我們整個討論以後然後送到我們院會院會通過以後我們才會送到立法院來所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來這個部分我想你們"},{"start":252.197,"end":253.79,"text":"理論上應該因為上一屆在審整個審查"},{"start":255.441,"end":281.669,"text":"完均之後的條文事實上做了很多的跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整上次有保留三條那這個部分我們會做討論然後或者做一部分的修正然後再送進來我希望的就是這樣不要說上一屆送的條文這一屆又送進來同樣的這個上一屆大家有意見保留的條文你再原封不動的送進來我們已經開始進行討論程序了"},{"start":284.09,"end":298.297,"text":"那這裡面齁我特別特別齁就是要在這裡除了這個監察法以外齁我們目前這個監察院國家人權委員會的組織法齁裡面有關這個第二條第一款齁這個有關這個"},{"start":302.469,"end":318.98,"text":"這個我們國家人權委員會目前對於人權委員會對涉及酷刑侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視的事件進行調查並依法處理或救濟這是目前的這個國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款"},{"start":320.165,"end":347.6,"text":"那這個部分呢我特別特別要這個跟李秘書長來討論一下就是第一個就是說所謂涉及酷刑這個酷刑這兩個字齁在目前法律上面他有其他的定義嗎什麼樣叫做酷刑我的了解是沒有明確的定義但是這個我們有巴黎原則底下的所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引所以我們現在是按照什麼你剛剛講酷刑公約"},{"start":348.14,"end":348.18,"text":"另外這個﹖"},{"start":376.545,"end":393.245,"text":"我們在這一條裡面規定最後就是說依法處理或救濟齁這個會不會有點空我目前的做法是怎麼樣處理或救濟做什麼樣處理或救濟這個部分我是不是請人權會的副執行秘書跟您打破好可以請副執行秘書"},{"start":395.134,"end":415.185,"text":"委員好有關於我們在組織法的第二條的第一款提到的對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分我們來依法處理跟救濟那這部分我目前我們是會接受相關的依照職權或陳情的調查我們會來做處理處理我現在就要問說這個所謂處理是你們現在目前是怎麼處理"},{"start":416.234,"end":444.749,"text":"我們的處理我們就是會如果要調查的話我們要經過不是調查處理按照這一條最後的結果並依法處理及救濟這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理我們的調查我們在相關的結果如果我們可能會函詢給相關的陳情人把相關的我們調查的結果告知然後我們也會把調查的結果函給相關的行政機關涉及相關行政機關來做處理處理我們所以我們就一個文區就對了"},{"start":446.36,"end":463.988,"text":"我跟委員報告這更完整一點如果經過人權委員會的調查認為有些部分需要處理涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來那如果有其他的部分行政上的部分我們會送給這個時間的關係時間的關係這個部分我認為現在目前條文所謂的處理跟救濟事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思這個我們未來這個部分要做一些明確化這個法條會空洞化"},{"start":474.585,"end":474.765,"text":"沈發惠議員"},{"start":493.342,"end":520.191,"text":"再來我跟您討論一個問題目前大家對於資安的部分有很多的討論我們行政院在前年的8月31號通過一個行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引制定一個行政指導原則參考指引這個部分"},{"start":521.546,"end":529.465,"text":"這個部分齁這個因為我們在這個我們自己齁我們在這個監察院裡面我們也有提到說有關的這個這個"},{"start":532.294,"end":556.671,"text":"這個公營事業公益學校行政法人使用AI用這個參考指引來那目前我們這個這個監我們的監察的業務監委的巡迴工作目前有沒有把這樣子使用AI這個各機關他有沒有依照這樣子生成式AI的參考指引有沒有依據這個這個指引來執行有沒有納入我們目前的這個這個巡查工作好"},{"start":557.351,"end":576.491,"text":"這個部分我分3個部分跟沈委員回應第一個部分有關AI的生成其實我們委員也有在自動調查當中這是第一個第二個就是這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是會有什麼樣相關的意見我們在去年年底的行政院巡查的時候我們有跟行政院在提出這個問題第三個部分"},{"start":580.074,"end":594.334,"text":"第三個部分是有關AI這個對生成式AI的部分我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案的討論我看到你們國家人權委員會的這個裝成策略計畫裡面也有提到有特別提到但是我剛剛的問題是說"},{"start":595.996,"end":604.384,"text":"你們目前這個監察業務尤其是監委的這些巡查工作有沒有把AI的這個行政機關有沒有按照AI相聲指引來執行就是我們在去年的這個行政院的巡查裡面我們有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情那今年的巡查裡面"},{"start":616.937,"end":640.973,"text":"我現在提的不是說跟行政院提醒而是說跟各個機關你在巡查各個機關的時候你有沒有瞭解這些機關它到底有沒有按照這個執意我們明年中央巡查的時候就會把這個列為項目之一我時間關係我本來還有一個問題要跟你請教那我再請林立法院帶回去你們監察院可以來做個檢討就是我們事實上這個監察院它是一個獨立的單位"},{"start":644.656,"end":670.884,"text":"他事實上在我們的資通安全的這些部分他可以擔任一個獨立的集合單位這個部分我們在行政院遵循資安等級的法尊事項就有提到國家應該要有一個就資通安全的獨立的集合單位我個人是認為監察院事實上是適合扮演這個角色的這部分請秘書長回去研究好不好"},{"start":672.093,"end":672.394,"text":"謝謝沈委員 謝謝李秘書長"}]}}}}