{"id":149633,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43009282fda84bace835af4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a63f1cde1601a035825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:55:16 - 10:08:30","影片長度":"00:13:14","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":794,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:08:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T09:55:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時55分）謝謝主席，有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。林委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：局長你好。中國的兩會開完之後，大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切地高度關注，不過就像您在報告所說的，中國現在對臺灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉，壓的部分從剛剛特別提到這次三無船的事件可以看得非常清楚，在整個談判的過程中，他們會斟酌、糾結於名詞上面，明明是一個他們也非常無法接受、也嚴格強力取締的三無船，但是當我們在執法的時候，它會故意透過名詞上的定義來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性、拉高對峙，這也是之前我們一直說的，可能會在灰色作戰的部分不斷施壓臺灣，你怎麼來看？像在這次三無船的過程中，它就特別去爭執，明明是我們的執法，而且我們執法單位鎖定的對象是非法的三無船，但是它在名詞上做定義，包括碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可的字，當一般民眾不懂的時候去造成臺灣內部的分裂，這樣在壓的過程中我們有沒有辦法去化解它？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，我覺得委員的切入點也非常好，一開始先看一下中共現在對臺的整體策略是什麼，我們再來看這個個案相關的處理手法，就這次的金廈水域……"],["林委員楚茵：這是一個壓嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當然……"],["林委員楚茵：就是要把你「壓落底」。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當然。就這次的事件來看，我們知道三無船事實上也是中共國務院的取締重點，就兩岸人民關係條例而言，取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定，海巡必須依法執行相關的勤務，只是在這次事件的處理過程中，可以發現中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂管轄權的爭議上，包括在2月14號發生這個事件之後，2月17號中共的臺辦系統就出來說臺灣方面沒有所謂的禁制水域，然後海警系統也跟進這樣的說法，當然……"],["林委員楚茵：所以我想問的重點就是，事實上它是想要用限縮臺灣主權的方式來壓制臺灣，包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情，但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞、撞船還是懲凶，這些名詞都只是前面的包裝，我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到，因為它要分化的是我們內部大家對於臺灣主權維護的分裂？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，過程當中可以看到有些政治的操作，這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這次事件，另外也要求我們相關海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等，這當然有些政治意涵在裡面，更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁限制水域，禁限制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎來劃設的，但是中共在這一方面進行挑戰，另外也透過它們的海警船在周邊活動來對我們進行施壓，主要目的就是希望能夠把臺海變成內水化的一個策略操作。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以像這個部分的「壓」其實是展現在方方面面，包括像現在有關於不在籍投票，馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論，因為它已經一讀付委了。那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到，中國現在是它說的法令是法令、它說了算，在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中，對於不在籍投票，行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票，這個部分其實如果合法、合規，在現有的法規上可以處理、是可行的，也可以來討論，但是其他的版本包括其他境外地區的通訊投票，或者是秘密通訊投票等等，我想請局長就國家安全的角度來看，當中國不斷地在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域，它都可以打破、限縮沒有的時候，現在我們修這樣的一個法規，讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票，尤其是中國現在就像你報告所寫的有反間諜法、有保守國家秘密法，那麼在臺灣以外地區，我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家，中國是可以以反間諜法、以國家安全相關的法規把人給逮捕起來，所以我想更擴大地問，這樣子如果在臺灣地區以外的地方，這樣的版本通過，對國家安全會不會有危害？你們有沒有評估？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，剛剛在進來委員會跟委員們做報告之前，媒體朋友也在關心這一題，主要的重點大概有幾個面向，國際上確實對於境外投票有一些討論，也有一些相關的規劃，有的國家認為可以進行，但是也有很多國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票有它的風險。從國安的角度來講，大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到，第一個是資安的環境，到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票；第二個，假如說不在籍的投票地點是在中國大陸的話，因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法，對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的定義，那在這種情況之下，到底國人在當地進行投票的話，能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票，這或許也是另外的角度要來考慮的。但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論，只是從國安的角度提出這些警示。"],["林委員楚茵：好，顯然局長包括整個國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向，但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論，我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度，能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢讓更多的國人看清，包括中國就是一個境外的敵對勢力，它始終是存在的，三無船事件其實就明明白白地告訴全國民眾，它們正在企圖破壞我們原本制定的遊戲規則，要來進行打壓臺灣主權，這是「壓」。","但是另外一方面，中國的統戰是方方面面，我想局長一定非常瞭解，過去它們也會施以恩惠包括什麼惠臺21項、惠臺多少點，這個以通促融、以惠促融跟以情促融，它是實實在在、扎實存在的，包括中國也制定了兩岸融合發展示範區，金門加廈門、福州加馬祖或是一直都存在的平潭實驗區，雖然平潭它們在10年前推，現在也做不起來，但是它們就是希望用各式各樣可以以情、以經濟優惠、經濟紅利等等來拉臺灣人民。","那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到，這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開，地方政府變成窗口了呢？我們來看這個叫作福馬同城通，而且就像我們的一卡通一樣，如果一旦申請了之後，還可以儲值300塊人民幣，大概是將近臺幣1,300吧！就等於說送你1,300，可以在馬祖境內像搭公車這樣子，我們TPASS至少還要自己花錢，結果它們是直接送錢，像這種以通促融，地方政府當作窗口了嗎？地方包圍中央，這樣一手拉可能會越來越多。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在中共的拉、壓兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統，一直是它們的一個施政重點。那委員剛才提到了，這個作法非常久了，早期有所謂的海西區，還有平潭的實驗區，那現在又提出了所謂福建融合示範區等等，在這樣的規劃之下，它們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式，邀請很多人員交流來塑造一種促通、促融的氣氛。不過要注意的是，在過程當中，它們也是希望能夠來吸收臺灣的人才、技術，還有相關的科技，還有投資。所以我們也必須要注意到它的規劃除了有促通、促融的目的以外，也要緩解它目前國內比較低檔的經濟情勢。至於地方包圍中央的部分，當然我們要特別注意，它們現在所提出來的是金廈的通水、通電，還有所謂的通油，甚至也對於金門這邊要不要提出公投來興建所謂的跨海大橋都有相關的著力，所以我們會密切注意各種地方交流。"],["林委員楚茵：我總的來說，如果像是這種所謂……"],["蔡局長明彥：合法的交流我們都重視、我們都尊重，但是假如是有比較特殊的狀況，我們會來注意相關的情資。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰，也就是剛剛你所講的交通、生活，但是它不只是促統，它也會有包括高科技人才，或者是我們的高科技相關的資通訊等等這些安全保障的部分，這個是國安局必須要注意的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["林委員楚茵：那麼對於它們的生活統戰，你們真的沒有辦法嗎？還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎？所以在這個部分，包括連江縣政府如果它當窗口，是不是依法報備就可以申請？那中國的所謂地方包圍中央，在國安局的情資跟對策上面，真的就看著讓它發生嗎？還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴其他的單位？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這是我們的工作，也就是兩岸的地方交流，合法的我們都尊重，但是對於中共操作的手法、整體的樣態，以及它積極推動交流的主要對象有哪些，背後的政治意圖、目的是什麼，我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析給決策高層做參考。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我現在其實希望的是，很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考，必要的時候，因為這些樣態、這些手法，臺灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會，很多時候不說，就會被民眾說：喔！你不敢說，是不是在隱瞞什麼？不如讓社會大眾知道，包括這些樣態、這些手法的背後，比如它送你1,300塊臺幣、300塊人民幣，它要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融，或者是以惠促融，它要的可能是後面更多的大魚，更多有利於中國而會損害到臺灣的，不只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流、你不讓我交流，這個背後的部分，我也希望局長這裡能夠在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在相關的活動，我們會把它的樣態做完整的揭露，讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步地知道中共大概的操作手法。另外，假如有涉及到違法的部分，我們會掌握具體的資訊之後，轉移給檢調單位來處理。"],["林委員楚茵：好，那麼另外一個我想問的是，今天早上一個最新的訊息是，距離臺灣只有140公里，菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴丹群島建港，要防範如果臺灣有事，就可以即刻地對臺灣的周邊做一些防護，不知道局長有沒有看到今天早上這樣的新聞？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，現在美國對於菲律賓，還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常關注，所以也在調整它在菲律賓的相關駐軍。那委員應該也知道，在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署協議，要增加在菲律賓的相關軍事基地，所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後，包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐，我們會注意相關的情勢，以及對區域安全還有臺海安全產生的影響。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以我只想請你給一個結論。不好意思，主席。就是像這樣的軍力部署，也展現了其實臺灣在國際社會上的重要性，也包含了中國的擴權，其實這些東南亞的國家都是擔憂的，所以你可不可以做一個總結，就是這樣的一個方向你怎麼來看？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，事實上我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有做稍微的說明，也就是臺灣站在中國軍事擴張的第一線，但在過程當中，國際社會對臺灣的關注、支持的聲量越來越高、越來越大，這也鋪陳出我們跟各個國際友盟國家戰略合作的機會，我們會爭取這樣的好機會，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員巧芯代）：謝謝。","接下來請馬委員文君發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_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\"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 789.961, \"end\": 790.361, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 790.361, \"end\": 790.381, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,149 --> 00:00:02,474\n有請蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝主席,連委員長\n\n2\n00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:38,097\n局長你好我想其實有關於這個中國的兩會開完之後大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切的高度關注不過我想就像您在報告所說的中國現在對台灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉那麼壓的部分其實從剛剛特別提到的有關於這一次三無船的事件可以看得非常清楚在整個談判的過程當中他們會針對\n\n3\n00:00:39,418 --> 00:00:39,878\n林楚茵\n\n4\n00:00:56,629 --> 00:01:24,958\n來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性拉高對峙這個也是之前其實我們都一直說的可能在灰色作戰的部分他會不斷的施壓台灣你怎麼來看如果說像這一次現在三五傳的過程當中他就特別的要去爭執在明明是我們的執法而且我們執法的單位所做所定的對象是非法的三五傳但是他會用名詞上面去做定義\n\n5\n00:01:25,818 --> 00:01:32,280\n包括碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可一般民眾不懂的時候去造成台灣內部的分裂那這樣的狀況是壓的過程當中我們有沒有辦法去化解它\n\n6\n00:01:40,751 --> 00:01:55,285\n謝謝委員提到這個問題我覺得委員的切入點也非常好也就一開始先看一下中共現在對台的整體的策略是什麼我們再來看他這個個案的處理的相關的手法那就這一次的今夏水域這是一個壓嗎?就是要壓囉?對\n\n7\n00:01:58,347 --> 00:02:19,723\n對,對,當然,就這一次的事件來看,我們可以知道三無船的取締事實上在中共的國務院也是取締的重點。那就我們的兩岸人民關係條例取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定,海巡必須要依法來執行相關的勤務。只是在這一次的事件的處理過程當中,可以發現到中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂的管轄權的爭議上。\n\n8\n00:02:22,285 --> 00:02:25,988\n所以我想問的重點就是事實上他是想要用限縮台灣的主權的方式來壓制台灣包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情\n\n9\n00:02:46,286 --> 00:03:03,414\n但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞還是撞船還是逞凶這些名詞都只是前面的包裝但是我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到因為他要分化的是我們內部大家對於台灣主權維護的分裂\n\n10\n00:03:07,266 --> 00:03:29,196\n對,過程當中可以看到有一些政治的操作這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這一次的事件那另外也要求我們的相關的海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等的這當然有一些政治的意涵在裡面那更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁縣制水域禁縣制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎\n\n11\n00:03:29,696 --> 00:03:31,558\n所以,像這個部分的壓,其實是展現在方方面面,來看下一張。\n\n12\n00:03:47,856 --> 00:04:03,593\n包括像現在有關於不在籍投票馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論因為他已經一讀附委了那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到中國現在是他說的法令是法令他說了算\n\n13\n00:04:05,543 --> 00:04:15,094\n在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中對於不在籍投票行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票這個部分其實如果合法合規在現有的法規上可以處理是可行的也可以來討論\n\n14\n00:04:23,763 --> 00:04:33,326\n但是其他的版本包括了其他境外地區的通訊投票或者是秘密通訊投票等等我想請局長你就國家安全的角度來看當中國不斷的是在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域他都可以打破限縮沒有的時候現在我們修降的一個法規讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票尤其是中國現在\n\n15\n00:04:50,390 --> 00:05:05,466\n就像您報告所寫的有反間諜法有保守國家秘密法那麼在台灣以外地區我其實包括我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家中國是可以\n\n16\n00:05:06,588 --> 00:05:08,810\n反間諜法以國家安全相關的法規是可以把人給逮捕起來所以我想更擴大地問這樣子如果在台灣地區以外的地方這樣的版本通過對國家安全會不會有危害你們有沒有評估\n\n17\n00:05:24,088 --> 00:05:43,656\n剛剛在進來委員會跟委員做報告之前媒體朋友也在關心這一題那主要的重點大概有幾個面向國際上確實對於一些境外的投票有一些討論也有一些相關的規劃那有的國家認為可以進行但是也有很多的國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票也有它的風險那從國安的角度來講大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到第一個\n\n18\n00:05:45,777 --> 00:06:13,866\n是治安的環境到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票?第二個,假如說這個不在己的投票地點是在中國大陸的話因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的一個定義那在這種情況之下我們到底國人在當地進行投票的話能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票?這或許也是另外一個角度要來考慮的但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論只是從國安的角度提出這些的警示\n\n19\n00:06:14,266 --> 00:06:27,252\n好,顯然局長包括整個我們的國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢\n\n20\n00:06:31,294 --> 00:06:31,694\n這是壓,但是另外一方面來看下一張\n\n21\n00:06:53,021 --> 00:07:14,208\n中國的統戰是方方面面我想局長一定非常了解過去呢他們也會以施以恩惠包括什麼惠台21項啦惠台多少點啦這個以通促融以惠促融跟以勤促融他是實實在在紮實存在的包括呢中國也制定了兩岸有融合的示範發展區金門加廈門\n\n22\n00:07:16,869 --> 00:07:29,700\n福州加馬祖或是一直都存在的平潭實驗區雖然平潭現在他們在10年前推但是也做不起來但是他們就是希望用各式各樣可以以情以經濟優惠經濟紅利等等的來拉台灣人民\n\n23\n00:07:32,962 --> 00:07:42,748\n來請看下一張那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開地方政府變成窗口了呢我們來看這個叫做福馬同城通而且就像我們的一卡通一樣如果你一旦申請了之後還可以儲值300塊人民幣大概是將近台幣1300吧\n\n24\n00:07:56,016 --> 00:08:21,218\n就等於說送你一千三可以在這個馬祖的境內像搭公車這樣子我們TPAS至少還要自己花錢結果他們是直接送錢我們TPAS我們還要自己花錢結果他可以直接送錢像這種以通促融地方政府當作窗口了嗎地方包圍中央這樣的一手拉可能會越來越多\n\n25\n00:08:22,403 --> 00:08:42,352\n對,在中共的拉押兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統一直是他們的一個施政的重點我們剛才提到了這個做法非常的久了早期有所謂的海西區還有平潭的實驗區那現在又提出了所謂的福建的融合示範區等等\n\n26\n00:08:43,252 --> 00:08:57,957\n在這樣的一個規劃之下他們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式邀請很多的人員交流來塑造一種觸通、觸容的一個氣氛不過要注意的是在過程當中他們也是希望能夠來吸收台灣的人才\n\n27\n00:08:59,028 --> 00:08:59,389\n李卓人議員\n\n28\n00:09:16,610 --> 00:09:17,431\n我總的來說,如果像是這種所謂……\n\n29\n00:09:35,987 --> 00:09:59,297\n因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰也就是剛剛您所講的交通、生活但是它不只是促統它也會有包括高科技人才或者是我們的高科技的相關的通訊等等的這些安全保障的部分這個是國安局必須要注意的那麼對於他們的生活統戰你們真的沒有辦法嗎還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎來看下一張\n\n30\n00:10:05,419 --> 00:10:08,042\n所以在這個部分包括新聞縣政府如果他當窗口是不是依法報備就可以申請那中國的這個所謂地方包圍中央我們在國安局的情資跟對策上面真的就讓他看著發生嗎還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴\n\n31\n00:10:21,557 --> 00:10:37,807\n對對,這是我們的工作,這是我們的工作,也就是兩岸的地方的交流,合法的我們都尊重,但是對於中共操作的手法,整體的樣態,以及他積極推動交流的主要的對象有哪些,背後的政治意圖、目的是什麼,我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析,給決策高層做參考。\n\n32\n00:10:38,908 --> 00:10:46,713\n我現在其實希望的是很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考必要的時候因為這些樣態、這些手法因為台灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會很多時候不說就會被民眾說你不敢說是不是在隱瞞什麼不如讓社會大眾知道包括這些樣態、這些手法\n\n33\n00:11:00,643 --> 00:11:24,603\n他的背後比如他送你1300塊台幣、300塊人民幣他要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融或者是以惠促融他要的可能是後面更多的大於更多的有利於中國的而會損害到台灣的不是只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流你不讓我交流\n\n34\n00:11:25,003 --> 00:11:45,241\n那這個背後的部分我也希望能夠局長這裡要在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明在相關的一個活動我們會把他的樣態做完整的揭露讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步的知道中共大概操作的手法另外假如有涉及到違法的部分我們會掌握具體的資訊之後轉移給檢調單位來處理\n\n35\n00:11:47,443 --> 00:12:09,453\n好那麼另外一個我想問的是說今天早上一個最新的訊息是距離台灣只有140公里菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴灘群島建港要防範如果台灣有事那麼就可以即刻的對台灣的周邊做一些防護不知道局長有沒有收看到今天早上這樣的一個新聞有\n\n36\n00:12:11,156 --> 00:12:36,258\n現在美國對於菲律賓還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常的關注所以也在調整他在菲律賓的相關的駐軍那委員應該也知道在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署的協議要增加在菲律賓的相關的軍事的基地所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐這我們會注意相關的情勢以及對區域安全還有太安全產生的影響\n\n37\n00:12:36,818 --> 00:12:54,010\n所以我只想請你給一個結論不好意思主席就是像這樣的一個軍力的部署也展現了其實台灣在國際社會上的重要性也包含了中國的擴權其實這些東南亞的國家都擔憂的所以你可不可以做一個總結就是這樣的一個方向你怎麼來看\n\n38\n00:12:54,790 --> 00:13:10,381\n對,我剛剛也事實上跟羅美琳委員有說稍微的說明也就是說台灣站在中國軍事擴張的第一線但在過程當中國際社會對於台灣的關注支持的聲量越來越高越來越大那這也鋪陳出我們跟各個國際有門國家戰略合作的機會我們會爭取這樣的好機會謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n149\t2474\t有請蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝主席,連委員長\n11119\t38097\t局長你好我想其實有關於這個中國的兩會開完之後大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切的高度關注不過我想就像您在報告所說的中國現在對台灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉那麼壓的部分其實從剛剛特別提到的有關於這一次三無船的事件可以看得非常清楚在整個談判的過程當中他們會針對\n39418\t39878\t林楚茵\n56629\t84958\t來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性拉高對峙這個也是之前其實我們都一直說的可能在灰色作戰的部分他會不斷的施壓台灣你怎麼來看如果說像這一次現在三五傳的過程當中他就特別的要去爭執在明明是我們的執法而且我們執法的單位所做所定的對象是非法的三五傳但是他會用名詞上面去做定義\n85818\t92280\t包括碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可一般民眾不懂的時候去造成台灣內部的分裂那這樣的狀況是壓的過程當中我們有沒有辦法去化解它\n100751\t115285\t謝謝委員提到這個問題我覺得委員的切入點也非常好也就一開始先看一下中共現在對台的整體的策略是什麼我們再來看他這個個案的處理的相關的手法那就這一次的今夏水域這是一個壓嗎?就是要壓囉?對\n118347\t139723\t對,對,當然,就這一次的事件來看,我們可以知道三無船的取締事實上在中共的國務院也是取締的重點。那就我們的兩岸人民關係條例取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定,海巡必須要依法來執行相關的勤務。只是在這一次的事件的處理過程當中,可以發現到中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂的管轄權的爭議上。\n142285\t145988\t所以我想問的重點就是事實上他是想要用限縮台灣的主權的方式來壓制台灣包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情\n166286\t183414\t但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞還是撞船還是逞凶這些名詞都只是前面的包裝但是我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到因為他要分化的是我們內部大家對於台灣主權維護的分裂\n187266\t209196\t對,過程當中可以看到有一些政治的操作這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這一次的事件那另外也要求我們的相關的海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等的這當然有一些政治的意涵在裡面那更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁縣制水域禁縣制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎\n209696\t211558\t所以,像這個部分的壓,其實是展現在方方面面,來看下一張。\n227856\t243593\t包括像現在有關於不在籍投票馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論因為他已經一讀附委了那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到中國現在是他說的法令是法令他說了算\n245543\t255094\t在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中對於不在籍投票行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票這個部分其實如果合法合規在現有的法規上可以處理是可行的也可以來討論\n263763\t273326\t但是其他的版本包括了其他境外地區的通訊投票或者是秘密通訊投票等等我想請局長你就國家安全的角度來看當中國不斷的是在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域他都可以打破限縮沒有的時候現在我們修降的一個法規讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票尤其是中國現在\n290390\t305466\t就像您報告所寫的有反間諜法有保守國家秘密法那麼在台灣以外地區我其實包括我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家中國是可以\n306588\t308810\t反間諜法以國家安全相關的法規是可以把人給逮捕起來所以我想更擴大地問這樣子如果在台灣地區以外的地方這樣的版本通過對國家安全會不會有危害你們有沒有評估\n324088\t343656\t剛剛在進來委員會跟委員做報告之前媒體朋友也在關心這一題那主要的重點大概有幾個面向國際上確實對於一些境外的投票有一些討論也有一些相關的規劃那有的國家認為可以進行但是也有很多的國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票也有它的風險那從國安的角度來講大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到第一個\n345777\t373866\t是治安的環境到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票?第二個,假如說這個不在己的投票地點是在中國大陸的話因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的一個定義那在這種情況之下我們到底國人在當地進行投票的話能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票?這或許也是另外一個角度要來考慮的但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論只是從國安的角度提出這些的警示\n374266\t387252\t好,顯然局長包括整個我們的國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢\n391294\t391694\t這是壓,但是另外一方面來看下一張\n413021\t434208\t中國的統戰是方方面面我想局長一定非常了解過去呢他們也會以施以恩惠包括什麼惠台21項啦惠台多少點啦這個以通促融以惠促融跟以勤促融他是實實在在紮實存在的包括呢中國也制定了兩岸有融合的示範發展區金門加廈門\n436869\t449700\t福州加馬祖或是一直都存在的平潭實驗區雖然平潭現在他們在10年前推但是也做不起來但是他們就是希望用各式各樣可以以情以經濟優惠經濟紅利等等的來拉台灣人民\n452962\t462748\t來請看下一張那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開地方政府變成窗口了呢我們來看這個叫做福馬同城通而且就像我們的一卡通一樣如果你一旦申請了之後還可以儲值300塊人民幣大概是將近台幣1300吧\n476016\t501218\t就等於說送你一千三可以在這個馬祖的境內像搭公車這樣子我們TPAS至少還要自己花錢結果他們是直接送錢我們TPAS我們還要自己花錢結果他可以直接送錢像這種以通促融地方政府當作窗口了嗎地方包圍中央這樣的一手拉可能會越來越多\n502403\t522352\t對,在中共的拉押兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統一直是他們的一個施政的重點我們剛才提到了這個做法非常的久了早期有所謂的海西區還有平潭的實驗區那現在又提出了所謂的福建的融合示範區等等\n523252\t537957\t在這樣的一個規劃之下他們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式邀請很多的人員交流來塑造一種觸通、觸容的一個氣氛不過要注意的是在過程當中他們也是希望能夠來吸收台灣的人才\n539028\t539389\t李卓人議員\n556610\t557431\t我總的來說,如果像是這種所謂……\n575987\t599297\t因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰也就是剛剛您所講的交通、生活但是它不只是促統它也會有包括高科技人才或者是我們的高科技的相關的通訊等等的這些安全保障的部分這個是國安局必須要注意的那麼對於他們的生活統戰你們真的沒有辦法嗎還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎來看下一張\n605419\t608042\t所以在這個部分包括新聞縣政府如果他當窗口是不是依法報備就可以申請那中國的這個所謂地方包圍中央我們在國安局的情資跟對策上面真的就讓他看著發生嗎還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴\n621557\t637807\t對對,這是我們的工作,這是我們的工作,也就是兩岸的地方的交流,合法的我們都尊重,但是對於中共操作的手法,整體的樣態,以及他積極推動交流的主要的對象有哪些,背後的政治意圖、目的是什麼,我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析,給決策高層做參考。\n638908\t646713\t我現在其實希望的是很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考必要的時候因為這些樣態、這些手法因為台灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會很多時候不說就會被民眾說你不敢說是不是在隱瞞什麼不如讓社會大眾知道包括這些樣態、這些手法\n660643\t684603\t他的背後比如他送你1300塊台幣、300塊人民幣他要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融或者是以惠促融他要的可能是後面更多的大於更多的有利於中國的而會損害到台灣的不是只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流你不讓我交流\n685003\t705241\t那這個背後的部分我也希望能夠局長這裡要在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明在相關的一個活動我們會把他的樣態做完整的揭露讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步的知道中共大概操作的手法另外假如有涉及到違法的部分我們會掌握具體的資訊之後轉移給檢調單位來處理\n707443\t729453\t好 那麼另外一個我想問的是說今天早上一個最新的訊息是距離台灣只有140公里菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴灘群島建港要防範如果台灣有事那麼就可以即刻的對台灣的周邊做一些防護不知道局長有沒有收看到今天早上這樣的一個新聞有\n731156\t756258\t現在美國對於菲律賓還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常的關注所以也在調整他在菲律賓的相關的駐軍那委員應該也知道在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署的協議要增加在菲律賓的相關的軍事的基地所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐這我們會注意相關的情勢以及對區域安全還有太安全產生的影響\n756818\t774010\t所以我只想請你給一個結論不好意思主席就是像這樣的一個軍力的部署也展現了其實台灣在國際社會上的重要性也包含了中國的擴權其實這些東南亞的國家都擔憂的所以你可不可以做一個總結就是這樣的一個方向你怎麼來看\n774790\t790381\t對,我剛剛也事實上跟羅美琳委員有說稍微的說明也就是說台灣站在中國軍事擴張的第一線但在過程當中國際社會對於台灣的關注支持的聲量越來越高越來越大那這也鋪陳出我們跟各個國際有門國家戰略合作的機會我們會爭取這樣的好機會謝謝\n","txt":"有請蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝主席,連委員長\n局長你好我想其實有關於這個中國的兩會開完之後大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切的高度關注不過我想就像您在報告所說的中國現在對台灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉那麼壓的部分其實從剛剛特別提到的有關於這一次三無船的事件可以看得非常清楚在整個談判的過程當中他們會針對\n林楚茵\n來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性拉高對峙這個也是之前其實我們都一直說的可能在灰色作戰的部分他會不斷的施壓台灣你怎麼來看如果說像這一次現在三五傳的過程當中他就特別的要去爭執在明明是我們的執法而且我們執法的單位所做所定的對象是非法的三五傳但是他會用名詞上面去做定義\n包括碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可一般民眾不懂的時候去造成台灣內部的分裂那這樣的狀況是壓的過程當中我們有沒有辦法去化解它\n謝謝委員提到這個問題我覺得委員的切入點也非常好也就一開始先看一下中共現在對台的整體的策略是什麼我們再來看他這個個案的處理的相關的手法那就這一次的今夏水域這是一個壓嗎?就是要壓囉?對\n對,對,當然,就這一次的事件來看,我們可以知道三無船的取締事實上在中共的國務院也是取締的重點。那就我們的兩岸人民關係條例取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定,海巡必須要依法來執行相關的勤務。只是在這一次的事件的處理過程當中,可以發現到中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂的管轄權的爭議上。\n所以我想問的重點就是事實上他是想要用限縮台灣的主權的方式來壓制台灣包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情\n但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞還是撞船還是逞凶這些名詞都只是前面的包裝但是我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到因為他要分化的是我們內部大家對於台灣主權維護的分裂\n對,過程當中可以看到有一些政治的操作這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這一次的事件那另外也要求我們的相關的海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等的這當然有一些政治的意涵在裡面那更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁縣制水域禁縣制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎\n所以,像這個部分的壓,其實是展現在方方面面,來看下一張。\n包括像現在有關於不在籍投票馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論因為他已經一讀附委了那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到中國現在是他說的法令是法令他說了算\n在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中對於不在籍投票行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票這個部分其實如果合法合規在現有的法規上可以處理是可行的也可以來討論\n但是其他的版本包括了其他境外地區的通訊投票或者是秘密通訊投票等等我想請局長你就國家安全的角度來看當中國不斷的是在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域他都可以打破限縮沒有的時候現在我們修降的一個法規讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票尤其是中國現在\n就像您報告所寫的有反間諜法有保守國家秘密法那麼在台灣以外地區我其實包括我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家中國是可以\n反間諜法以國家安全相關的法規是可以把人給逮捕起來所以我想更擴大地問這樣子如果在台灣地區以外的地方這樣的版本通過對國家安全會不會有危害你們有沒有評估\n剛剛在進來委員會跟委員做報告之前媒體朋友也在關心這一題那主要的重點大概有幾個面向國際上確實對於一些境外的投票有一些討論也有一些相關的規劃那有的國家認為可以進行但是也有很多的國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票也有它的風險那從國安的角度來講大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到第一個\n是治安的環境到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票?第二個,假如說這個不在己的投票地點是在中國大陸的話因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的一個定義那在這種情況之下我們到底國人在當地進行投票的話能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票?這或許也是另外一個角度要來考慮的但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論只是從國安的角度提出這些的警示\n好,顯然局長包括整個我們的國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢\n這是壓,但是另外一方面來看下一張\n中國的統戰是方方面面我想局長一定非常了解過去呢他們也會以施以恩惠包括什麼惠台21項啦惠台多少點啦這個以通促融以惠促融跟以勤促融他是實實在在紮實存在的包括呢中國也制定了兩岸有融合的示範發展區金門加廈門\n福州加馬祖或是一直都存在的平潭實驗區雖然平潭現在他們在10年前推但是也做不起來但是他們就是希望用各式各樣可以以情以經濟優惠經濟紅利等等的來拉台灣人民\n來請看下一張那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開地方政府變成窗口了呢我們來看這個叫做福馬同城通而且就像我們的一卡通一樣如果你一旦申請了之後還可以儲值300塊人民幣大概是將近台幣1300吧\n就等於說送你一千三可以在這個馬祖的境內像搭公車這樣子我們TPAS至少還要自己花錢結果他們是直接送錢我們TPAS我們還要自己花錢結果他可以直接送錢像這種以通促融地方政府當作窗口了嗎地方包圍中央這樣的一手拉可能會越來越多\n對,在中共的拉押兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統一直是他們的一個施政的重點我們剛才提到了這個做法非常的久了早期有所謂的海西區還有平潭的實驗區那現在又提出了所謂的福建的融合示範區等等\n在這樣的一個規劃之下他們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式邀請很多的人員交流來塑造一種觸通、觸容的一個氣氛不過要注意的是在過程當中他們也是希望能夠來吸收台灣的人才\n李卓人議員\n我總的來說,如果像是這種所謂……\n因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰也就是剛剛您所講的交通、生活但是它不只是促統它也會有包括高科技人才或者是我們的高科技的相關的通訊等等的這些安全保障的部分這個是國安局必須要注意的那麼對於他們的生活統戰你們真的沒有辦法嗎還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎來看下一張\n所以在這個部分包括新聞縣政府如果他當窗口是不是依法報備就可以申請那中國的這個所謂地方包圍中央我們在國安局的情資跟對策上面真的就讓他看著發生嗎還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴\n對對,這是我們的工作,這是我們的工作,也就是兩岸的地方的交流,合法的我們都尊重,但是對於中共操作的手法,整體的樣態,以及他積極推動交流的主要的對象有哪些,背後的政治意圖、目的是什麼,我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析,給決策高層做參考。\n我現在其實希望的是很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考必要的時候因為這些樣態、這些手法因為台灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會很多時候不說就會被民眾說你不敢說是不是在隱瞞什麼不如讓社會大眾知道包括這些樣態、這些手法\n他的背後比如他送你1300塊台幣、300塊人民幣他要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融或者是以惠促融他要的可能是後面更多的大於更多的有利於中國的而會損害到台灣的不是只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流你不讓我交流\n那這個背後的部分我也希望能夠局長這裡要在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明在相關的一個活動我們會把他的樣態做完整的揭露讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步的知道中共大概操作的手法另外假如有涉及到違法的部分我們會掌握具體的資訊之後轉移給檢調單位來處理\n好 那麼另外一個我想問的是說今天早上一個最新的訊息是距離台灣只有140公里菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴灘群島建港要防範如果台灣有事那麼就可以即刻的對台灣的周邊做一些防護不知道局長有沒有收看到今天早上這樣的一個新聞有\n現在美國對於菲律賓還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常的關注所以也在調整他在菲律賓的相關的駐軍那委員應該也知道在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署的協議要增加在菲律賓的相關的軍事的基地所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐這我們會注意相關的情勢以及對區域安全還有太安全產生的影響\n所以我只想請你給一個結論不好意思主席就是像這樣的一個軍力的部署也展現了其實台灣在國際社會上的重要性也包含了中國的擴權其實這些東南亞的國家都擔憂的所以你可不可以做一個總結就是這樣的一個方向你怎麼來看\n對,我剛剛也事實上跟羅美琳委員有說稍微的說明也就是說台灣站在中國軍事擴張的第一線但在過程當中國際社會對於台灣的關注支持的聲量越來越高越來越大那這也鋪陳出我們跟各個國際有門國家戰略合作的機會我們會爭取這樣的好機會謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.149 --> 00:02.474\n有請蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝主席,連委員長\n\n00:11.119 --> 00:38.097\n局長你好我想其實有關於這個中國的兩會開完之後大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切的高度關注不過我想就像您在報告所說的中國現在對台灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉那麼壓的部分其實從剛剛特別提到的有關於這一次三無船的事件可以看得非常清楚在整個談判的過程當中他們會針對\n\n00:39.418 --> 00:39.878\n林楚茵\n\n00:56.629 --> 01:24.958\n來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性拉高對峙這個也是之前其實我們都一直說的可能在灰色作戰的部分他會不斷的施壓台灣你怎麼來看如果說像這一次現在三五傳的過程當中他就特別的要去爭執在明明是我們的執法而且我們執法的單位所做所定的對象是非法的三五傳但是他會用名詞上面去做定義\n\n01:25.818 --> 01:32.280\n包括碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可一般民眾不懂的時候去造成台灣內部的分裂那這樣的狀況是壓的過程當中我們有沒有辦法去化解它\n\n01:40.751 --> 01:55.285\n謝謝委員提到這個問題我覺得委員的切入點也非常好也就一開始先看一下中共現在對台的整體的策略是什麼我們再來看他這個個案的處理的相關的手法那就這一次的今夏水域這是一個壓嗎?就是要壓囉?對\n\n01:58.347 --> 02:19.723\n對,對,當然,就這一次的事件來看,我們可以知道三無船的取締事實上在中共的國務院也是取締的重點。那就我們的兩岸人民關係條例取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定,海巡必須要依法來執行相關的勤務。只是在這一次的事件的處理過程當中,可以發現到中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂的管轄權的爭議上。\n\n02:22.285 --> 02:25.988\n所以我想問的重點就是事實上他是想要用限縮台灣的主權的方式來壓制台灣包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情\n\n02:46.286 --> 03:03.414\n但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞還是撞船還是逞凶這些名詞都只是前面的包裝但是我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到因為他要分化的是我們內部大家對於台灣主權維護的分裂\n\n03:07.266 --> 03:29.196\n對,過程當中可以看到有一些政治的操作這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這一次的事件那另外也要求我們的相關的海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等的這當然有一些政治的意涵在裡面那更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁縣制水域禁縣制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎\n\n03:29.696 --> 03:31.558\n所以,像這個部分的壓,其實是展現在方方面面,來看下一張。\n\n03:47.856 --> 04:03.593\n包括像現在有關於不在籍投票馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論因為他已經一讀附委了那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到中國現在是他說的法令是法令他說了算\n\n04:05.543 --> 04:15.094\n在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中對於不在籍投票行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票這個部分其實如果合法合規在現有的法規上可以處理是可行的也可以來討論\n\n04:23.763 --> 04:33.326\n但是其他的版本包括了其他境外地區的通訊投票或者是秘密通訊投票等等我想請局長你就國家安全的角度來看當中國不斷的是在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域他都可以打破限縮沒有的時候現在我們修降的一個法規讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票尤其是中國現在\n\n04:50.390 --> 05:05.466\n就像您報告所寫的有反間諜法有保守國家秘密法那麼在台灣以外地區我其實包括我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家中國是可以\n\n05:06.588 --> 05:08.810\n反間諜法以國家安全相關的法規是可以把人給逮捕起來所以我想更擴大地問這樣子如果在台灣地區以外的地方這樣的版本通過對國家安全會不會有危害你們有沒有評估\n\n05:24.088 --> 05:43.656\n剛剛在進來委員會跟委員做報告之前媒體朋友也在關心這一題那主要的重點大概有幾個面向國際上確實對於一些境外的投票有一些討論也有一些相關的規劃那有的國家認為可以進行但是也有很多的國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票也有它的風險那從國安的角度來講大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到第一個\n\n05:45.777 --> 06:13.866\n是治安的環境到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票?第二個,假如說這個不在己的投票地點是在中國大陸的話因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的一個定義那在這種情況之下我們到底國人在當地進行投票的話能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票?這或許也是另外一個角度要來考慮的但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論只是從國安的角度提出這些的警示\n\n06:14.266 --> 06:27.252\n好,顯然局長包括整個我們的國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢\n\n06:31.294 --> 06:31.694\n這是壓,但是另外一方面來看下一張\n\n06:53.021 --> 07:14.208\n中國的統戰是方方面面我想局長一定非常了解過去呢他們也會以施以恩惠包括什麼惠台21項啦惠台多少點啦這個以通促融以惠促融跟以勤促融他是實實在在紮實存在的包括呢中國也制定了兩岸有融合的示範發展區金門加廈門\n\n07:16.869 --> 07:29.700\n福州加馬祖或是一直都存在的平潭實驗區雖然平潭現在他們在10年前推但是也做不起來但是他們就是希望用各式各樣可以以情以經濟優惠經濟紅利等等的來拉台灣人民\n\n07:32.962 --> 07:42.748\n來請看下一張那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開地方政府變成窗口了呢我們來看這個叫做福馬同城通而且就像我們的一卡通一樣如果你一旦申請了之後還可以儲值300塊人民幣大概是將近台幣1300吧\n\n07:56.016 --> 08:21.218\n就等於說送你一千三可以在這個馬祖的境內像搭公車這樣子我們TPAS至少還要自己花錢結果他們是直接送錢我們TPAS我們還要自己花錢結果他可以直接送錢像這種以通促融地方政府當作窗口了嗎地方包圍中央這樣的一手拉可能會越來越多\n\n08:22.403 --> 08:42.352\n對,在中共的拉押兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統一直是他們的一個施政的重點我們剛才提到了這個做法非常的久了早期有所謂的海西區還有平潭的實驗區那現在又提出了所謂的福建的融合示範區等等\n\n08:43.252 --> 08:57.957\n在這樣的一個規劃之下他們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式邀請很多的人員交流來塑造一種觸通、觸容的一個氣氛不過要注意的是在過程當中他們也是希望能夠來吸收台灣的人才\n\n08:59.028 --> 08:59.389\n李卓人議員\n\n09:16.610 --> 09:17.431\n我總的來說,如果像是這種所謂……\n\n09:35.987 --> 09:59.297\n因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰也就是剛剛您所講的交通、生活但是它不只是促統它也會有包括高科技人才或者是我們的高科技的相關的通訊等等的這些安全保障的部分這個是國安局必須要注意的那麼對於他們的生活統戰你們真的沒有辦法嗎還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎來看下一張\n\n10:05.419 --> 10:08.042\n所以在這個部分包括新聞縣政府如果他當窗口是不是依法報備就可以申請那中國的這個所謂地方包圍中央我們在國安局的情資跟對策上面真的就讓他看著發生嗎還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴\n\n10:21.557 --> 10:37.807\n對對,這是我們的工作,這是我們的工作,也就是兩岸的地方的交流,合法的我們都尊重,但是對於中共操作的手法,整體的樣態,以及他積極推動交流的主要的對象有哪些,背後的政治意圖、目的是什麼,我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析,給決策高層做參考。\n\n10:38.908 --> 10:46.713\n我現在其實希望的是很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考必要的時候因為這些樣態、這些手法因為台灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會很多時候不說就會被民眾說你不敢說是不是在隱瞞什麼不如讓社會大眾知道包括這些樣態、這些手法\n\n11:00.643 --> 11:24.603\n他的背後比如他送你1300塊台幣、300塊人民幣他要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融或者是以惠促融他要的可能是後面更多的大於更多的有利於中國的而會損害到台灣的不是只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流你不讓我交流\n\n11:25.003 --> 11:45.241\n那這個背後的部分我也希望能夠局長這裡要在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明在相關的一個活動我們會把他的樣態做完整的揭露讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步的知道中共大概操作的手法另外假如有涉及到違法的部分我們會掌握具體的資訊之後轉移給檢調單位來處理\n\n11:47.443 --> 12:09.453\n好那麼另外一個我想問的是說今天早上一個最新的訊息是距離台灣只有140公里菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴灘群島建港要防範如果台灣有事那麼就可以即刻的對台灣的周邊做一些防護不知道局長有沒有收看到今天早上這樣的一個新聞有\n\n12:11.156 --> 12:36.258\n現在美國對於菲律賓還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常的關注所以也在調整他在菲律賓的相關的駐軍那委員應該也知道在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署的協議要增加在菲律賓的相關的軍事的基地所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐這我們會注意相關的情勢以及對區域安全還有太安全產生的影響\n\n12:36.818 --> 12:54.010\n所以我只想請你給一個結論不好意思主席就是像這樣的一個軍力的部署也展現了其實台灣在國際社會上的重要性也包含了中國的擴權其實這些東南亞的國家都擔憂的所以你可不可以做一個總結就是這樣的一個方向你怎麼來看\n\n12:54.790 --> 13:10.381\n對,我剛剛也事實上跟羅美琳委員有說稍微的說明也就是說台灣站在中國軍事擴張的第一線但在過程當中國際社會對於台灣的關注支持的聲量越來越高越來越大那這也鋪陳出我們跟各個國際有門國家戰略合作的機會我們會爭取這樣的好機會謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.149,"end":2.474,"text":"有請蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝主席,連委員長"},{"start":11.119,"end":38.097,"text":"局長你好我想其實有關於這個中國的兩會開完之後大家對於兩岸之間的關係當然是密切的高度關注不過我想就像您在報告所說的中國現在對台灣的策略就是一手壓一手拉那麼壓的部分其實從剛剛特別提到的有關於這一次三無船的事件可以看得非常清楚在整個談判的過程當中他們會針對"},{"start":39.418,"end":39.878,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":56.629,"end":84.958,"text":"來增加彼此雙方談判的困難性拉高對峙這個也是之前其實我們都一直說的可能在灰色作戰的部分他會不斷的施壓台灣你怎麼來看如果說像這一次現在三五傳的過程當中他就特別的要去爭執在明明是我們的執法而且我們執法的單位所做所定的對象是非法的三五傳但是他會用名詞上面去做定義"},{"start":85.818,"end":92.28,"text":"包括碰撞、撞船這種模擬兩可一般民眾不懂的時候去造成台灣內部的分裂那這樣的狀況是壓的過程當中我們有沒有辦法去化解它"},{"start":100.751,"end":115.285,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個問題我覺得委員的切入點也非常好也就一開始先看一下中共現在對台的整體的策略是什麼我們再來看他這個個案的處理的相關的手法那就這一次的今夏水域這是一個壓嗎?就是要壓囉?對"},{"start":118.347,"end":139.723,"text":"對,對,當然,就這一次的事件來看,我們可以知道三無船的取締事實上在中共的國務院也是取締的重點。那就我們的兩岸人民關係條例取締這種沒有船名的船隻也是我們的法律規定,海巡必須要依法來執行相關的勤務。只是在這一次的事件的處理過程當中,可以發現到中共特別把這個議題轉移到所謂的管轄權的爭議上。"},{"start":142.285,"end":145.988,"text":"所以我想問的重點就是事實上他是想要用限縮台灣的主權的方式來壓制台灣包括所謂沒有禁制水域這件事情"},{"start":166.286,"end":183.414,"text":"但是剛剛所提到的比如說是碰撞還是撞船還是逞凶這些名詞都只是前面的包裝但是我們有沒有辦法化解這種包裝讓全民看到因為他要分化的是我們內部大家對於台灣主權維護的分裂"},{"start":187.266,"end":209.196,"text":"對,過程當中可以看到有一些政治的操作這包括到所謂該用什麼樣的名詞來形容這一次的事件那另外也要求我們的相關的海委會的官員必須要公開道歉等等的這當然有一些政治的意涵在裡面那更重要的重點是在於虛無化我們的禁縣制水域禁縣制水域的劃設是依照兩岸人民關係條例的法律基礎"},{"start":209.696,"end":211.558,"text":"所以,像這個部分的壓,其實是展現在方方面面,來看下一張。"},{"start":227.856,"end":243.593,"text":"包括像現在有關於不在籍投票馬上會進入內政委員會來進行討論因為他已經一讀附委了那麼對於你在報告當中也特別提到中國現在是他說的法令是法令他說了算"},{"start":245.543,"end":255.094,"text":"在反間諜法以及保守國家秘密法都還在執行當中對於不在籍投票行政院的版本在全國的部分是可以所謂的轉移投票這個部分其實如果合法合規在現有的法規上可以處理是可行的也可以來討論"},{"start":263.763,"end":273.326,"text":"但是其他的版本包括了其他境外地區的通訊投票或者是秘密通訊投票等等我想請局長你就國家安全的角度來看當中國不斷的是在限縮我們原本列在你剛剛說的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的禁制水域他都可以打破限縮沒有的時候現在我們修降的一個法規讓在境外地區就可以來進行投票尤其是中國現在"},{"start":290.39,"end":305.466,"text":"就像您報告所寫的有反間諜法有保守國家秘密法那麼在台灣以外地區我其實包括我甚至於都懷疑在中港澳地區之外的別的國家中國是可以"},{"start":306.588,"end":308.81,"text":"反間諜法以國家安全相關的法規是可以把人給逮捕起來所以我想更擴大地問這樣子如果在台灣地區以外的地方這樣的版本通過對國家安全會不會有危害你們有沒有評估"},{"start":324.088,"end":343.656,"text":"剛剛在進來委員會跟委員做報告之前媒體朋友也在關心這一題那主要的重點大概有幾個面向國際上確實對於一些境外的投票有一些討論也有一些相關的規劃那有的國家認為可以進行但是也有很多的國家認為進行這樣的通訊投票也有它的風險那從國安的角度來講大概有兩個風險必須要顧慮到第一個"},{"start":345.777,"end":373.866,"text":"是治安的環境到底適不適合來進行這種遠距的通訊投票?第二個,假如說這個不在己的投票地點是在中國大陸的話因為依照貴院所通過的反滲透法對岸完全是符合境外敵對國家的一個定義那在這種情況之下我們到底國人在當地進行投票的話能不能夠在自由的意志之下來投票?這或許也是另外一個角度要來考慮的但原則上我們尊重社會各界的討論只是從國安的角度提出這些的警示"},{"start":374.266,"end":387.252,"text":"好,顯然局長包括整個我們的國安團隊都有思考這個層面跟這個面向但是它是一個即將可能會發生的討論我也希望國安局可以站在國安的角度能夠透過這樣子像立法院這種公開的質詢"},{"start":391.294,"end":391.694,"text":"這是壓,但是另外一方面來看下一張"},{"start":413.021,"end":434.208,"text":"中國的統戰是方方面面我想局長一定非常了解過去呢他們也會以施以恩惠包括什麼惠台21項啦惠台多少點啦這個以通促融以惠促融跟以勤促融他是實實在在紮實存在的包括呢中國也制定了兩岸有融合的示範發展區金門加廈門"},{"start":436.869,"end":449.7,"text":"福州加馬祖或是一直都存在的平潭實驗區雖然平潭現在他們在10年前推但是也做不起來但是他們就是希望用各式各樣可以以情以經濟優惠經濟紅利等等的來拉台灣人民"},{"start":452.962,"end":462.748,"text":"來請看下一張那麼我不知道國安局是不是有注意到這是不是地方包圍中央又新一波的展開地方政府變成窗口了呢我們來看這個叫做福馬同城通而且就像我們的一卡通一樣如果你一旦申請了之後還可以儲值300塊人民幣大概是將近台幣1300吧"},{"start":476.016,"end":501.218,"text":"就等於說送你一千三可以在這個馬祖的境內像搭公車這樣子我們TPAS至少還要自己花錢結果他們是直接送錢我們TPAS我們還要自己花錢結果他可以直接送錢像這種以通促融地方政府當作窗口了嗎地方包圍中央這樣的一手拉可能會越來越多"},{"start":502.403,"end":522.352,"text":"對,在中共的拉押兩手策略裡面去推動這種促通、促融、促統一直是他們的一個施政的重點我們剛才提到了這個做法非常的久了早期有所謂的海西區還有平潭的實驗區那現在又提出了所謂的福建的融合示範區等等"},{"start":523.252,"end":537.957,"text":"在這樣的一個規劃之下他們主要希望做的是透過大交流的方式邀請很多的人員交流來塑造一種觸通、觸容的一個氣氛不過要注意的是在過程當中他們也是希望能夠來吸收台灣的人才"},{"start":539.028,"end":539.389,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":556.61,"end":557.431,"text":"我總的來說,如果像是這種所謂……"},{"start":575.987,"end":599.297,"text":"因為其實本席擔心的是這會不會是一種生活統戰也就是剛剛您所講的交通、生活但是它不只是促統它也會有包括高科技人才或者是我們的高科技的相關的通訊等等的這些安全保障的部分這個是國安局必須要注意的那麼對於他們的生活統戰你們真的沒有辦法嗎還是說我們真的就束手無策嗎來看下一張"},{"start":605.419,"end":608.042,"text":"所以在這個部分包括新聞縣政府如果他當窗口是不是依法報備就可以申請那中國的這個所謂地方包圍中央我們在國安局的情資跟對策上面真的就讓他看著發生嗎還是你們會有做相關的通報告訴"},{"start":621.557,"end":637.807,"text":"對對,這是我們的工作,這是我們的工作,也就是兩岸的地方的交流,合法的我們都尊重,但是對於中共操作的手法,整體的樣態,以及他積極推動交流的主要的對象有哪些,背後的政治意圖、目的是什麼,我們都會有相關的情勢研判跟分析,給決策高層做參考。"},{"start":638.908,"end":646.713,"text":"我現在其實希望的是很多時候不只是給決策高層做參考必要的時候因為這些樣態、這些手法因為台灣其實是一個資訊流通的社會很多時候不說就會被民眾說你不敢說是不是在隱瞞什麼不如讓社會大眾知道包括這些樣態、這些手法"},{"start":660.643,"end":684.603,"text":"他的背後比如他送你1300塊台幣、300塊人民幣他要的恐怕不只是在情感上的以通促融或者是以惠促融他要的可能是後面更多的大於更多的有利於中國的而會損害到台灣的不是只是所謂大家有的時候認為的這種好像你干涉我交流你不讓我交流"},{"start":685.003,"end":705.241,"text":"那這個背後的部分我也希望能夠局長這裡要在必要的時候做一些解密跟說明在相關的一個活動我們會把他的樣態做完整的揭露讓社會大眾或媒體能夠更進一步的知道中共大概操作的手法另外假如有涉及到違法的部分我們會掌握具體的資訊之後轉移給檢調單位來處理"},{"start":707.443,"end":729.453,"text":"好 那麼另外一個我想問的是說今天早上一個最新的訊息是距離台灣只有140公里菲律賓現在證實美國會出資巴灘群島建港要防範如果台灣有事那麼就可以即刻的對台灣的周邊做一些防護不知道局長有沒有收看到今天早上這樣的一個新聞有"},{"start":731.156,"end":756.258,"text":"現在美國對於菲律賓還有南海緊張情勢的升高非常的關注所以也在調整他在菲律賓的相關的駐軍那委員應該也知道在去年美國就跟菲律賓簽署的協議要增加在菲律賓的相關的軍事的基地所以這些基地在經過重新配置之後包括菲國的離島地區未來可能都會有新的美軍部隊或設施的進駐這我們會注意相關的情勢以及對區域安全還有太安全產生的影響"},{"start":756.818,"end":774.01,"text":"所以我只想請你給一個結論不好意思主席就是像這樣的一個軍力的部署也展現了其實台灣在國際社會上的重要性也包含了中國的擴權其實這些東南亞的國家都擔憂的所以你可不可以做一個總結就是這樣的一個方向你怎麼來看"},{"start":774.79,"end":790.381,"text":"對,我剛剛也事實上跟羅美琳委員有說稍微的說明也就是說台灣站在中國軍事擴張的第一線但在過程當中國際社會對於台灣的關注支持的聲量越來越高越來越大那這也鋪陳出我們跟各個國際有門國家戰略合作的機會我們會爭取這樣的好機會謝謝"}]}}}}