{"id":149646,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300afe03f4d30ccbfe6af4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a60300be7979f504765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:08:42 - 10:23:56","影片長度":"00:15:14","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":914,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:23:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:08:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩請蔡局長。"],["主席：有請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：局長早。局長，我想請教一下，近期你睡得好嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我從來沒有想到睡覺問題比專業問題還要難回答，因為我講睡得好，好像我不重視臺海緊張情勢，我說我睡不好，好像臺海情勢很緊張，有在睡覺。"],["馬委員文君：有在睡覺，睡得好不好？因為國防部長跟國安局長，相對的對於臺海的局勢，我想都是一樣的重視。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以現在臺海局勢的發展，也會影響所有的……不只是包括我們國防部長，還有我們所有的國軍弟兄，包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意。我想請教局長，因為今天也有非常多的委員討論到，現在臺海局勢變得這麼緊張，請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下，在這8年前跟8年後，我們臺海局勢有這麼大的改變，最主要的原因是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我覺得最主要的還是中國整體的戰略行為有出現改變，習近平在上臺之後，對於整體的國力他充滿了自信，他也律定了他2027……"],["馬委員文君：因為習近平不是在後來才就任……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，2012年。"],["馬委員文君：他過去其實也是都在的，所以這樣子的轉變，就是說可能兩岸的溝通，還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下，關係都很和緩的情況之下，變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張，最大的因素，除了中共自己本身的戰略，還有習近平自己的規劃以外，還有什麼樣的因素？"],["蔡局長明彥：我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國整體戰略行為的變動，這剛剛有跟委員說明到，另一方面……"],["馬委員文君：他的戰略有什麼樣的變動？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們現在對於使用、展現自己的國家力量，來對外進行一些相關的存在的提升，不好意思，這個英文叫presence，就是它的存在感的提升，非常地積極。"],["馬委員文君：過去不是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：現在更積極。"],["馬委員文君：它的積極對臺灣做了什麼樣的改變？因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對臺的政策上面，其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通，還有很多不管在哪一方面的協同，可是現在大家越來越緊張，那現在的態勢已經變成這樣，我們現在也不再討論這個部分。我想請教局長，如果就這樣的情況之下，因為現在這麼緊張……因為老實說啦！1,300塊就可以收買我們國人，太看輕我們臺灣人了啦！如果是這樣，政府加碼啊！你可以補助5,000塊啊！我們希望不要把臺灣人看得很貪小便宜，然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們，這是非常可笑的。其實在整個國家的政策，包括我們自己在制定的很多政策上面，即使是讓國人可以收到很多的利益，都還不見得可以收買人心，更何況是小恩小惠，所以不要把臺灣人自己貶得這麼低，我們現在要的是自信。過去我們在兩岸或是不管跟哪一個國家，其實我們臺灣的進步，還有我們的發展，還有我們的民主自由，這個才是我們的優勢，不是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣，所以我們現在比較希望、在乎的就是說，如果以現在大家對這個局勢的分析，目前……等一下也請國防部的副部長也上來，就是說現在包括我們灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾，甚至國防部長對於第一擊的說法已經比較具體，不過我覺得他的說法讓大家可能有一些誤會，這個等一下請副部長再說明一下，所謂的實體，航空、航海的實體到底是什麼？你連漁船或者像一些他們的工程船都算嗎？這個部分我想應該有必要說清楚。另外就是在這些方面，我想要請教局長，我們應該怎麼因應？如果以現在，甚至在六日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們海巡艦艇的時候，那時候在苗栗距離6海里的地方，大陸的大型漁船已經進到6海里，我們有什麼樣的處置作為？看起來那時候是沒有，為什麼？那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題，我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極建議？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想委員當然也知道啦！現在中共對臺的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手策略，軟的一手、硬的一手來對臺灣進行施壓跟分化，剛剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇部分，這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法還有聯合國的憲章，一旦有任何侵略國家的主權或領海、領空的行為，必須要有自衛權，這個部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當。至於委員認為在國安上怎麼樣來應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略，我們認為還是要強調提升臺灣防衛韌性的重要性，這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新、現代化，它還包括到我們的能源韌性、糧食韌性，還有社會韌性，加強居民合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯臺的成本，而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後，歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向，我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力。"],["馬委員文君：局長你也講到重點了，其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性，可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的，比如像剛剛有提到的，不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源，尤其是能源，我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大，一旦我們臺灣遭受封鎖的時候，其實對整體的傷害或者負面的影響是非常嚴重的，就能源韌性這一點，局長是不是再多說明一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我說明一下，也許等一下國防部也補充，因為現在國防部有全動署，全動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃。據我所知，也有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性，來做相關現有方案的檢討，以及來改進我們相關的策進作為。這部分有在做，我自己參加過幾次會議。"],["馬委員文君：局長如果你有參加過幾次會議，你應該知道全動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的，這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關討論可能也會提到，不過今天我們特別提出來，我想就這幾個部分，因為應該要怎麼樣因應，顯然到6海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為，完全沒有，甚至消息也是後來才知道，所以就這個部分，我想我們應該要……包括他的大型漁船，包括很多的工程船，包括他的小藍人，最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為，而不是只有分析局勢，因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了，這個部分後續我們想請國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟作法。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，應該的。"],["馬委員文君：另外，接下來因為時間不多，我想要請教一下，因為剛剛徐巧芯委員有提到了幾個……"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，我說明一下，只要中共相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關漁船進入到我們的禁限制水域，我們的海巡署一定會有動作，包括進行驅離的動作，這是法律規定，這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定。"],["馬委員文君：那苗栗的大型漁船你怎麼看？3艘漁船。"],["蔡局長明彥：相關當天的實際作業狀況，我們請海巡署來做個補充。"],["馬委員文君：已經到了6海里，我們有什麼樣的應處作為？"],["張副署長忠龍：委員好，這邊跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：簡單說明就好。"],["張副署長忠龍：其實當天那3艘船進來，我們在11點多的時候，我們的雷達是有全程監控的，我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對，但是因為當天的海象是七到八，最高陣風十級，已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪級數。"],["馬委員文君：那對方的漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久？你的海象不好，我們的船艇沒有辦法，為什麼他的漁船可以？"],["張副署長忠龍：這邊特別跟委員報告，因為他們的漁船大概都是300噸到500噸，那我們的巡防艇只有100噸。"],["馬委員文君：所以它如果大型漁船來，我們就拿它沒辦法的意思？"],["張副署長忠龍：我們是全程有用雷達監控，但是當天我們根據漁船航行的速度，我們認為它應該是在航行當中，同時間我們也……"],["馬委員文君：所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎？剛剛國安局長還有包括大家平常在講的，我們支持海巡，我們也認為海巡這些相關同仁都非常的辛苦，我們也支持海巡執法，可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們人、船，還有包括現在要應處這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響，你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為，否則你應該要有什麼樣子的……","包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係，他們的衝突性有時非常強大，在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是大國競爭的關係，可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險、不脫鉤，而且會溝通對話、管控分歧，我們現在不斷地讓很多的分歧不斷地擴大，對我們的傷害其實是越大，包括我們的國軍弟兄，包括我們的海空軍，其實他們真的是非常的疲乏，包括油料不斷地要增加，你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險，而不是政治解決，這個部分正是我們今天要特別提出來，包括海巡，包括國安單位，其實就這個部分，我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的、更周全的考慮，你自己的業務報告也提到了，其他國家都可以這樣做了，我們自己做不到，過去跟現在最大的改變，就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道，我們的分歧不斷地擴大，可是當它進到6海里的時候，漁船進來，我們只是用雷達監控。"],["蔡局長明彥：中共各種灰色地帶的操作，我們確實在執法還有法律的運作過程當中，要更細緻來因應它的操作，因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到一些爭議訊息的散播，或是去凸顯管轄權相關的問題，所以謝謝委員提醒……"],["馬委員文君：現在都已經發生了。局長，從頭到尾我們都非常清楚，現在因為時間的關係，最後我想要請教，因為徐巧芯委員剛剛也有提到，就她提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分，剛剛局長有說介選，剛好在那個時機點。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：你看，像潛艦在最後的階段，因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部、送給調查局、送給相關單位，還包括韓國的駐臺代表處，因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法，甚至可能會影響到國家的安全，它在兩年前通通不查，在選舉前提出來，這樣有沒有介選？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想這個尊重司法機關偵辦的過程，我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件再做更多評論。"],["馬委員文君：局長，我在這裡要提醒一下，因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有，如果有這樣的狀況，其實不用每一個都推給司法調查，司法調查是一個，行政調查也是一個，今天國安單位，如果有委員跟中共的女子有親密關係，到底會不會影響？這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係，在國家安全上面，本來我們應該要主動介入，過去不知道，可是當你知道以後，你是什麼樣的作為？在選舉的期間，該有的全部出現，不該有的也全部都出現了，這個部分，我們都請國安單位要調查，其實也要去掌控。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["馬委員文君：我們再一次強調，雖然有司法調查，但是不代表行政不能調查，包括海巡的這個事件，因為行政調查是必要的，你都應該要隨時掌握，不然司法案件有時候一拖非常長的時間，你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者即時可以做一些應處的作為？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下，對於它傳散的管道，還有IP位置的查找，我們這部分都有盡力的在……"],["馬委員文君：IP位置的查找，你只是講一個，你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛！可是還有羅致政委員，還有趙天麟委員，還有其他的委員啊！像這些會造成什麼樣的影響？而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影，如果你沒有做，人家就不容易做這樣的動作嘛，對不對？我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已，而是它的管道，甚至是不是透過這樣的管道，當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去旅遊或交流的時候都被約談，像這樣子，你們做了什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，對於這部分的，我們剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了，整個在兩岸交流過程當中，透過國安法制所進行相關的留置、約談或偵訊，我們針對可能遭到它鎖定的目標對象會做一些完整的整理，也會進行必要的通報，以提醒國人到大陸的過程當中要注意的事情，這是我們的職責，我們繼續來做。"],["馬委員文君：那麼剛剛提到的這些，像趙委員呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，事實上不是只有……"],["馬委員文君：你們有嗎？有做嗎？有做到嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長，其他案子相關散布的網絡管道，我們都有在做，檢調單位……"],["馬委員文君：不是散布網絡，我們講的不是散布的這些管道，當有些只是去旅遊、去溝通交流的時候，其實都已經被約談了，我們現在在乎的是，甚至你的身分非常敏感特殊，可是你不但沒有去做安全的管控，或者甚至去掌握是不是有一些洩密的作為，我想這個國安局就失職了。"],["蔡局長明彥：有在注意。"],["馬委員文君：這個後續我們再來討論。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有在注意，謝謝委員提醒。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"id":"149646","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149646","tool":"pyannote","id":"149646-pyannote"},"job_id":"y0NxPCBO8Bhfm7A6","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"行\", \"start\": 134.113, \"end\": 134.313, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 134.313, \"end\": 134.454, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 134.454, \"end\": 135.115, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 135.115, \"end\": 135.555, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 135.555, \"end\": 135.715, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 135.715, \"end\": 135.735, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 137.077, \"end\": 139.14, \"text\": \"過去不是嗎?過去不是嗎?他的積極對台灣做了什麼樣的改變?因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對台的政策上面\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 137.077, \"end\": 137.097, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 137.097, \"end\": 137.237, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 137.237, \"end\": 137.358, \"score\": 0.539}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 137.358, \"end\": 137.498, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 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\"end\": 509.336, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 511.453, \"end\": 516.442, \"text\": \"對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況,我們請海巡署來做個補充。已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 511.453, \"end\": 511.994, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 511.994, \"end\": 512.174, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 512.174, \"end\": 512.795, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 512.795, \"end\": 512.955, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 512.955, \"end\": 513.516, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 513.516, \"end\": 513.837, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 513.837, \"end\": 513.977, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"巡\", \"start\": 513.977, \"end\": 514.178, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"署\", 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0.998}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 516.381, \"end\": 516.422, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 516.422, \"end\": 516.442, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 518.218, \"end\": 543.963, \"text\": \"委員好 這邊特別跟委員報告其實他當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪時間那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 518.218, \"end\": 518.458, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 518.458, \"end\": 519.298, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 519.298, \"end\": 519.598, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 519.598, \"end\": 519.978, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 519.978, \"end\": 520.178, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 520.178, \"end\": 520.538, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, 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\"end\": 697.91, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 697.91, \"end\": 700.132, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"音\", \"start\": 700.132, \"end\": 700.573, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 700.573, \"end\": 701.073, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 701.073, \"end\": 701.353, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 701.353, \"end\": 701.514, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 701.514, \"end\": 701.654, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 701.654, \"end\": 701.854, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 701.854, \"end\": 702.495, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 702.495, \"end\": 702.855, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 702.855, \"end\": 703.255, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"借\", \"start\": 703.255, \"end\": 703.756, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 703.756, \"end\": 704.436, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 704.436, \"end\": 704.777, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 704.777, \"end\": 704.957, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 704.957, \"end\": 704.977, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 704.977, \"end\": 705.037, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 705.037, \"end\": 705.057, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 705.057, \"end\": 705.197, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 705.197, \"end\": 705.357, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 705.357, \"end\": 705.377, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 710.421, \"end\": 729.81, \"text\": \"因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借權\", \"words\": [{\"word\": 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00:00:45,995\n有在睡覺睡得好不好我想因為國防部長跟國安局長相對的對於台海的局勢我想都是一樣的重視所以現在台海局勢的發展也會影響所有的\n\n3\n00:00:47,096 --> 00:00:57,121\n不只是包括我們國防部長還有我們所有的國軍弟兄包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意我想請教局長因為今天也非常多的委員其實都有討論到那現在台海局勢變得這麼緊張我想請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下在這8年前跟8年後我們台海局勢有這麼大的一個改變它最主要的原因是什麼\n\n4\n00:01:15,373 --> 00:01:30,719\n我覺得最主要還是中國的整體的戰略行為有出現改變那習近平在上台之後對於整體的國力他充滿了自信那他也預定了他2027因為習近平不是在後來才就任對2012年對可是他過去其實也是都在的所以這樣子的轉變\n\n5\n00:01:37,102 --> 00:01:56,216\n就是說可能兩岸的溝通還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下關係都很和緩的情況之下變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張最大的因素除了中共自己本身的戰略還有習近平本身他自己的一個規劃以外還有什麼樣的因素\n\n6\n00:02:00,154 --> 00:02:15,735\n我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國的整體的戰略行為的變動這剛剛有跟委員說明到那另一方面他們戰略有什麼樣的變動他們現在對於使用展現自己的國家力量來對外進行一些相關的一個\n\n7\n00:02:17,077 --> 00:02:19,140\n過去不是嗎?過去不是嗎?他的積極對台灣做了什麼樣的改變?因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對台的政策上面\n\n8\n00:02:33,601 --> 00:02:36,784\n其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通還有很多在不管在哪一方面的一個協同可是現在大家越來越緊張那現在的態勢已經變成這樣我們現在也不再討論這個部分了我想請教局長如果就這樣的情況之下因為現在這麼緊張因為老實說啦一千三百塊就可以收買我們國人看清我們台灣人了啦\n\n9\n00:03:01,605 --> 00:03:05,307\n如果是這樣政府加碼你可以補助五千塊我們希望不要把台灣人看得很貪小便宜然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們這是非常可笑的其實在整個國家的政策包括我們自己在制定的很多的政策上面即使是讓國人有很多的\n\n10\n00:03:23,677 --> 00:03:23,817\n馬文君\n\n11\n00:03:46,779 --> 00:03:59,018\n這個才是我們的優勢不是嗎我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣所以我們現在比較希望在乎的就是說如果以現在大家在這個局勢的分析目前\n\n12\n00:04:00,404 --> 00:04:04,866\n等一下也請我們國防部的副部長也上來就是說現在包括我們現在灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾甚至國防部長對於第一級他的一個說法已經有比較具體不過我覺得他的說法讓大家有一點可能有一些是把他\n\n13\n00:04:19,472 --> 00:04:20,873\n這部分我想應該要有必要說清楚\n\n14\n00:04:36,124 --> 00:04:56,118\n那另外就是在這些方面我想要請教局長我們應該怎麼因應如果以現在甚至在6日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們的海巡艦艇的時候那時候在苗栗就已經\n\n15\n00:04:57,259 --> 00:05:14,221\n距離六海里的地方,大陸的大型漁船已經進到這樣六海里,我們有什麼樣的處置作為?看起來那時候是沒有,為什麼?那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題,我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極的建議?\n\n16\n00:05:15,914 --> 00:05:32,674\n對我想委員當然也知道現在中共對台的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手的兩手策略的軟的一手硬的一手來對台灣進行施壓跟分化那剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇的部分那這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法\n\n17\n00:05:33,795 --> 00:05:57,132\n還有聯合國的憲章一旦有任何的侵略國家的主權或臨海領空的行為必須要有自衛權那這部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當那至於委員認為說在國安上怎麼樣應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略那我們認為還是要強調提升台灣防衛韌性的重要性這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新現代化\n\n18\n00:05:57,532 --> 00:06:14,460\n他還包括到我們的能源的韌性、糧食的韌性還有社會的韌性加強居民的合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯台的成本而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向那我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力\n\n19\n00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:43,409\n局長你也講到重點了其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的比如說在很多像剛剛有提到的不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源尤其是能源我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大一旦我們台灣遭受封鎖的時候其實對整體的傷害或者\n\n20\n00:06:44,429 --> 00:07:11,299\n負面的影響是非常嚴重的就這一點能源的韌性局長是不是再多說明一下對我說明一下也許等一下國防部也補充因為現在國防部有權動署那權動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃那據我所知有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性來做相關現有方案的檢討那以及來改進我們相關的策進作為這部分有在做我自己參加過幾次的會議\n\n21\n00:07:12,932 --> 00:07:34,308\n局長如果你有參加過幾次的會議你應該知道權動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關的討論可能也會提到不過今天我們特別提出來我想就這幾個部分因為應該要怎麼樣因應顯然到六海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為\n\n22\n00:07:37,791 --> 00:08:03,359\n完全沒有甚至消息也是後來才知道所以就這個部分我想我們應該要包括他的大型漁船包括很多的工程船包括他的小藍人我們最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為而不是只有分析局勢因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了這個部分我們想請後續國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟做法\n\n23\n00:08:04,159 --> 00:08:29,336\n另外,因為時間也不多,我想要請教一下,因為剛剛徐巧欣委員有提到了幾個委員我說明一下,那個只要中共的相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關的漁船進入到我們的淨線制水域我們的海巡署一定會有動作,包括進行驅離的動作,這是法律規定這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定那苗栗的那個大型漁船你怎麼看?三艘的那個漁船\n\n24\n00:08:31,453 --> 00:08:36,442\n對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況,我們請海巡署來做個補充。已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為?\n\n25\n00:08:38,218 --> 00:09:03,963\n委員好這邊特別跟委員報告其實他當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪時間那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以\n\n26\n00:09:04,924 --> 00:09:20,302\n這邊特別跟委員報告因為他們的漁船大概都300噸到500噸那我們的循環艇只有100噸所以他如果大型漁船來我們就拿他沒辦法的意思我們是全程有監控用雷達監控但是當天我們根據漁船的航行的速度我們判我們認為他應該是在航行當中\n\n27\n00:09:23,626 --> 00:09:27,070\n所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎剛剛國安局長還包括大家平常在講的我們支持海巡我們也認為海巡的這些相關的同仁都非常的辛苦我們也支持海巡執法可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們\n\n28\n00:09:41,144 --> 00:09:44,507\n人、船還有包括我們現在要應處的這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為否則你應該要有什麼樣子的包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係他們的衝突性有時非常強大\n\n29\n00:09:59,301 --> 00:10:17,291\n在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是這樣的一個關係大國競爭的關係可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險不脫鉤而且會溝通對話管控分歧我們現在不斷的讓很多的分歧不斷的擴大對我們的傷害其實是越大\n\n30\n00:10:20,313 --> 00:10:27,200\n包括我們的國軍弟兄包括我們的海控軍其實他們真的是非常的疲乏包括我們的油料不斷的要增加你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險而不是政治解決這個部分這是我們今天要特別提出來的這個部分包括海巡\n\n31\n00:10:40,872 --> 00:11:05,672\n包括我們國安單位其實就這個部分我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的更周全的一個考慮你自己的業務報告其他國家都可以這樣做了我們自己做不到過去跟現在最大的改變就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道我們的分歧不斷的擴大可是當它進到六海裡的時候只是漁船進來我們只是用雷達監控\n\n32\n00:11:07,335 --> 00:11:23,499\n我想各種中共的灰色地帶的操作我們確實在執法還有法律的一個運作過程當中要來更細緻來因應它的一個操作因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到的還有一些爭議訊息的散播或是去凸顯管轄權的相關的問題\n\n33\n00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:45,377\n現在都已經在發生了,局長這個從頭到尾我們都非常清楚,現在因為時間的關係,最後我想要請教因為徐曉新委員剛剛也有提到,就他提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分,剛剛局長有說借選嘛,在剛好那個時機點,那你看像在\n\n34\n00:11:50,421 --> 00:12:09,810\n因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借權\n\n35\n00:12:10,885 --> 00:12:34,480\n那這我想尊重那個司法機關他們偵辦的一個過程我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件在...局長我在這裡要提醒一下因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有如果有這樣子的狀況其實不用每一個都推給司法調查司法調查是一個行政調查也是一個今天國安單位如果是影響有委員跟\n\n36\n00:12:35,581 --> 00:12:53,704\n中共的女子其實有親密的關係她到底會不會影響這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係這個在國家安全上面本來我們應該要主動介入過去不知道可是當你知道以後你是什麼樣的作為在選舉的期間該有的全部\n\n37\n00:12:54,665 --> 00:13:14,018\n不該有的也全部都出現了那這個部分我們都請國安單位其實也要去掌控我們再一次強調雖然有司法調查不代表行政不能調查包括海巡的這個事件因為行政調查是必要的你都應該要隨時掌握不然司法案件有時一拖非常長的時間那你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者在即時可以做一些應處的一個作為\n\n38\n00:13:21,123 --> 00:13:30,646\n這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下對於他的船上的一個管道還有IP位置的查找我們這部分都有建議的在IT位置的查找你只是講一個嘛你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛可是你還有羅志正委員啊你還有趙天寧委員啊還有其他的委員啊像這些他會造成什麼樣而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影如果你沒有做那人家就不容易做這樣的一個動作嘛對不對\n\n39\n00:13:48,112 --> 00:14:05,409\n那我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已而是它的管道甚至它是不是透過這樣的管道當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去做旅遊或交流的時候都被約談那像這樣子呢你們做了什麼\n\n40\n00:14:06,390 --> 00:14:32,419\n對,對於這部分的,我們剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了,他的整個在兩岸交流過程當中,透過國安法制所進行的相關的留置約談或徵訊,我們會針對可能遭到他鎖定的目標的對象,會做一些完整的整理,那也會進行必要的通報,來提醒國人到大陸過程當中要注意的事情,這是我們的職責,我們繼續來做。那像剛剛提到的這些,像趙委員呢?\n\n41\n00:14:33,662 --> 00:14:36,867\n對,事實上不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長其他的案子的相關散佈的網絡管道這個我們都有在做我們講的不是散佈的這些管道\n\n42\n00:14:49,066 --> 00:15:07,412\n有些只是去旅遊去溝通交流的時候其實都已經被約談了我們現在在乎的是甚至你的身份非常敏感特殊可是你不但沒有去做一個安全的管控或者甚至去掌握是不是有一些洩密的一個作為我想這個國安局就失職了這個後續我們再來討論這個時間謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t3190\t謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長。邀請局長。好,謝謝主席,馬文早。啊,局長早。局長我想請教一下近期你睡得好嗎?我從來沒有想到睡覺的問題比專業問題還要難回答。因為我講睡得好,好像我不重視台海緊張情勢。我說我睡不好,好像說台海情勢很緊張。好,有在睡覺。\n31155\t45995\t有在睡覺睡得好不好我想因為國防部長跟國安局長相對的對於台海的局勢我想都是一樣的重視所以現在台海局勢的發展也會影響所有的\n47096\t57121\t不只是包括我們國防部長還有我們所有的國軍弟兄包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意我想請教局長因為今天也非常多的委員其實都有討論到那現在台海局勢變得這麼緊張我想請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下在這8年前跟8年後我們台海局勢有這麼大的一個改變它最主要的原因是什麼\n75373\t90719\t我覺得最主要還是中國的整體的戰略行為有出現改變那習近平在上台之後對於整體的國力他充滿了自信那他也預定了他2027因為習近平不是在後來才就任對2012年對可是他過去其實也是都在的所以這樣子的轉變\n97102\t116216\t就是說可能兩岸的溝通還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下關係都很和緩的情況之下變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張最大的因素除了中共自己本身的戰略還有習近平本身他自己的一個規劃以外還有什麼樣的因素\n120154\t135735\t我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國的整體的戰略行為的變動這剛剛有跟委員說明到那另一方面他們戰略有什麼樣的變動他們現在對於使用展現自己的國家力量來對外進行一些相關的一個\n137077\t139140\t過去不是嗎?過去不是嗎?他的積極對台灣做了什麼樣的改變?因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對台的政策上面\n153601\t156784\t其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通還有很多在不管在哪一方面的一個協同可是現在大家越來越緊張那現在的態勢已經變成這樣我們現在也不再討論這個部分了我想請教局長如果就這樣的情況之下因為現在這麼緊張因為老實說啦一千三百塊就可以收買我們國人看清我們台灣人了啦\n181605\t185307\t如果是這樣政府加碼你可以補助五千塊我們希望不要把台灣人看得很貪小便宜然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們這是非常可笑的其實在整個國家的政策包括我們自己在制定的很多的政策上面即使是讓國人有很多的\n203677\t203817\t馬文君\n226779\t239018\t這個才是我們的優勢不是嗎我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣所以我們現在比較希望在乎的就是說如果以現在大家在這個局勢的分析目前\n240404\t244866\t等一下也請我們國防部的副部長也上來就是說現在包括我們現在灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾甚至國防部長對於第一級他的一個說法已經有比較具體不過我覺得他的說法讓大家有一點可能有一些是把他\n259472\t260873\t這部分我想應該要有必要說清楚\n276124\t296118\t那另外就是在這些方面我想要請教局長我們應該怎麼因應如果以現在甚至在6日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們的海巡艦艇的時候那時候在苗栗就已經\n297259\t314221\t距離六海里的地方,大陸的大型漁船已經進到這樣六海里,我們有什麼樣的處置作為?看起來那時候是沒有,為什麼?那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題,我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極的建議?\n315914\t332674\t對我想委員當然也知道現在中共對台的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手的兩手策略的軟的一手硬的一手來對台灣進行施壓跟分化那剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇的部分那這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法\n333795\t357132\t還有聯合國的憲章一旦有任何的侵略國家的主權或臨海領空的行為必須要有自衛權那這部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當那至於委員認為說在國安上怎麼樣應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略那我們認為還是要強調提升台灣防衛韌性的重要性這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新現代化\n357532\t374460\t他還包括到我們的能源的韌性、糧食的韌性還有社會的韌性加強居民的合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯台的成本而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向那我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力\n375600\t403409\t局長你也講到重點了其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的比如說在很多像剛剛有提到的不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源尤其是能源我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大一旦我們台灣遭受封鎖的時候其實對整體的傷害或者\n404429\t431299\t負面的影響是非常嚴重的就這一點能源的韌性局長是不是再多說明一下對我說明一下也許等一下國防部也補充因為現在國防部有權動署那權動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃那據我所知有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性來做相關現有方案的檢討那以及來改進我們相關的策進作為這部分有在做我自己參加過幾次的會議\n432932\t454308\t局長如果你有參加過幾次的會議你應該知道權動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關的討論可能也會提到不過今天我們特別提出來我想就這幾個部分因為應該要怎麼樣因應顯然到六海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為\n457791\t483359\t完全沒有甚至消息也是後來才知道所以就這個部分我想我們應該要包括他的大型漁船包括很多的工程船包括他的小藍人我們最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為而不是只有分析局勢因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了這個部分我們想請後續國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟做法\n484159\t509336\t另外,因為時間也不多,我想要請教一下,因為剛剛徐巧欣委員有提到了幾個委員我說明一下,那個只要中共的相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關的漁船進入到我們的淨線制水域我們的海巡署一定會有動作,包括進行驅離的動作,這是法律規定這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定那苗栗的那個大型漁船你怎麼看?三艘的那個漁船\n511453\t516442\t對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況,我們請海巡署來做個補充。已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為?\n518218\t543963\t委員好 這邊特別跟委員報告其實他當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪時間那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以\n544924\t560302\t這邊特別跟委員報告因為他們的漁船大概都300噸到500噸那我們的循環艇只有100噸所以他如果大型漁船來我們就拿他沒辦法的意思我們是全程有監控用雷達監控但是當天我們根據漁船的航行的速度我們判我們認為他應該是在航行當中\n563626\t567070\t所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎剛剛國安局長還包括大家平常在講的我們支持海巡我們也認為海巡的這些相關的同仁都非常的辛苦我們也支持海巡執法可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們\n581144\t584507\t人、船還有包括我們現在要應處的這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為否則你應該要有什麼樣子的包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係他們的衝突性有時非常強大\n599301\t617291\t在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是這樣的一個關係大國競爭的關係可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險不脫鉤而且會溝通對話管控分歧我們現在不斷的讓很多的分歧不斷的擴大對我們的傷害其實是越大\n620313\t627200\t包括我們的國軍弟兄包括我們的海控軍其實他們真的是非常的疲乏包括我們的油料不斷的要增加你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險而不是政治解決這個部分這是我們今天要特別提出來的這個部分包括海巡\n640872\t665672\t包括我們國安單位其實就這個部分我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的更周全的一個考慮你自己的業務報告其他國家都可以這樣做了我們自己做不到過去跟現在最大的改變就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道我們的分歧不斷的擴大可是當它進到六海裡的時候只是漁船進來我們只是用雷達監控\n667335\t683499\t我想各種中共的灰色地帶的操作我們確實在執法還有法律的一個運作過程當中要來更細緻來因應它的一個操作因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到的還有一些爭議訊息的散播或是去凸顯管轄權的相關的問題\n686520\t705377\t現在都已經在發生了,局長這個從頭到尾我們都非常清楚,現在因為時間的關係,最後我想要請教因為徐曉新委員剛剛也有提到,就他提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分,剛剛局長有說借選嘛,在剛好那個時機點,那你看像在\n710421\t729810\t因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借權\n730885\t754480\t那這我想尊重那個司法機關他們偵辦的一個過程我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件在...局長我在這裡要提醒一下因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有如果有這樣子的狀況其實不用每一個都推給司法調查司法調查是一個行政調查也是一個今天國安單位如果是影響有委員跟\n755581\t773704\t中共的女子其實有親密的關係她到底會不會影響這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係這個在國家安全上面本來我們應該要主動介入過去不知道可是當你知道以後你是什麼樣的作為在選舉的期間該有的全部\n774665\t794018\t不該有的也全部都出現了那這個部分我們都請國安單位其實也要去掌控我們再一次強調雖然有司法調查不代表行政不能調查包括海巡的這個事件因為行政調查是必要的你都應該要隨時掌握不然司法案件有時一拖非常長的時間那你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者在即時可以做一些應處的一個作為\n801123\t810646\t這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下對於他的船上的一個管道還有IP位置的查找我們這部分都有建議的在IT位置的查找你只是講一個嘛你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛可是你還有羅志正委員啊你還有趙天寧委員啊還有其他的委員啊像這些他會造成什麼樣而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影如果你沒有做那人家就不容易做這樣的一個動作嘛對不對\n828112\t845409\t那我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已而是它的管道甚至它是不是透過這樣的管道當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去做旅遊或交流的時候都被約談那像這樣子呢你們做了什麼\n846390\t872419\t對,對於這部分的,我們剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了,他的整個在兩岸交流過程當中,透過國安法制所進行的相關的留置約談或徵訊,我們會針對可能遭到他鎖定的目標的對象,會做一些完整的整理,那也會進行必要的通報,來提醒國人到大陸過程當中要注意的事情,這是我們的職責,我們繼續來做。那像剛剛提到的這些,像趙委員呢?\n873662\t876867\t對,事實上不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長其他的案子的相關散佈的網絡管道這個我們都有在做我們講的不是散佈的這些管道\n889066\t907412\t有些只是去旅遊去溝通交流的時候其實都已經被約談了我們現在在乎的是甚至你的身份非常敏感特殊可是你不但沒有去做一個安全的管控或者甚至去掌握是不是有一些洩密的一個作為我想這個國安局就失職了這個後續我們再來討論這個時間謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長。邀請局長。好,謝謝主席,馬文早。啊,局長早。局長我想請教一下近期你睡得好嗎?我從來沒有想到睡覺的問題比專業問題還要難回答。因為我講睡得好,好像我不重視台海緊張情勢。我說我睡不好,好像說台海情勢很緊張。好,有在睡覺。\n有在睡覺睡得好不好我想因為國防部長跟國安局長相對的對於台海的局勢我想都是一樣的重視所以現在台海局勢的發展也會影響所有的\n不只是包括我們國防部長還有我們所有的國軍弟兄包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意我想請教局長因為今天也非常多的委員其實都有討論到那現在台海局勢變得這麼緊張我想請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下在這8年前跟8年後我們台海局勢有這麼大的一個改變它最主要的原因是什麼\n我覺得最主要還是中國的整體的戰略行為有出現改變那習近平在上台之後對於整體的國力他充滿了自信那他也預定了他2027因為習近平不是在後來才就任對2012年對可是他過去其實也是都在的所以這樣子的轉變\n就是說可能兩岸的溝通還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下關係都很和緩的情況之下變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張最大的因素除了中共自己本身的戰略還有習近平本身他自己的一個規劃以外還有什麼樣的因素\n我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國的整體的戰略行為的變動這剛剛有跟委員說明到那另一方面他們戰略有什麼樣的變動他們現在對於使用展現自己的國家力量來對外進行一些相關的一個\n過去不是嗎?過去不是嗎?他的積極對台灣做了什麼樣的改變?因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對台的政策上面\n其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通還有很多在不管在哪一方面的一個協同可是現在大家越來越緊張那現在的態勢已經變成這樣我們現在也不再討論這個部分了我想請教局長如果就這樣的情況之下因為現在這麼緊張因為老實說啦一千三百塊就可以收買我們國人看清我們台灣人了啦\n如果是這樣政府加碼你可以補助五千塊我們希望不要把台灣人看得很貪小便宜然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們這是非常可笑的其實在整個國家的政策包括我們自己在制定的很多的政策上面即使是讓國人有很多的\n馬文君\n這個才是我們的優勢不是嗎我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣所以我們現在比較希望在乎的就是說如果以現在大家在這個局勢的分析目前\n等一下也請我們國防部的副部長也上來就是說現在包括我們現在灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾甚至國防部長對於第一級他的一個說法已經有比較具體不過我覺得他的說法讓大家有一點可能有一些是把他\n這部分我想應該要有必要說清楚\n那另外就是在這些方面我想要請教局長我們應該怎麼因應如果以現在甚至在6日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們的海巡艦艇的時候那時候在苗栗就已經\n距離六海里的地方,大陸的大型漁船已經進到這樣六海里,我們有什麼樣的處置作為?看起來那時候是沒有,為什麼?那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題,我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極的建議?\n對我想委員當然也知道現在中共對台的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手的兩手策略的軟的一手硬的一手來對台灣進行施壓跟分化那剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇的部分那這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法\n還有聯合國的憲章一旦有任何的侵略國家的主權或臨海領空的行為必須要有自衛權那這部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當那至於委員認為說在國安上怎麼樣應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略那我們認為還是要強調提升台灣防衛韌性的重要性這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新現代化\n他還包括到我們的能源的韌性、糧食的韌性還有社會的韌性加強居民的合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯台的成本而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向那我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力\n局長你也講到重點了其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的比如說在很多像剛剛有提到的不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源尤其是能源我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大一旦我們台灣遭受封鎖的時候其實對整體的傷害或者\n負面的影響是非常嚴重的就這一點能源的韌性局長是不是再多說明一下對我說明一下也許等一下國防部也補充因為現在國防部有權動署那權動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃那據我所知有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性來做相關現有方案的檢討那以及來改進我們相關的策進作為這部分有在做我自己參加過幾次的會議\n局長如果你有參加過幾次的會議你應該知道權動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關的討論可能也會提到不過今天我們特別提出來我想就這幾個部分因為應該要怎麼樣因應顯然到六海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為\n完全沒有甚至消息也是後來才知道所以就這個部分我想我們應該要包括他的大型漁船包括很多的工程船包括他的小藍人我們最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為而不是只有分析局勢因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了這個部分我們想請後續國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟做法\n另外,因為時間也不多,我想要請教一下,因為剛剛徐巧欣委員有提到了幾個委員我說明一下,那個只要中共的相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關的漁船進入到我們的淨線制水域我們的海巡署一定會有動作,包括進行驅離的動作,這是法律規定這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定那苗栗的那個大型漁船你怎麼看?三艘的那個漁船\n對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況,我們請海巡署來做個補充。已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為?\n委員好 這邊特別跟委員報告其實他當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪時間那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以\n這邊特別跟委員報告因為他們的漁船大概都300噸到500噸那我們的循環艇只有100噸所以他如果大型漁船來我們就拿他沒辦法的意思我們是全程有監控用雷達監控但是當天我們根據漁船的航行的速度我們判我們認為他應該是在航行當中\n所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎剛剛國安局長還包括大家平常在講的我們支持海巡我們也認為海巡的這些相關的同仁都非常的辛苦我們也支持海巡執法可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們\n人、船還有包括我們現在要應處的這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為否則你應該要有什麼樣子的包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係他們的衝突性有時非常強大\n在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是這樣的一個關係大國競爭的關係可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險不脫鉤而且會溝通對話管控分歧我們現在不斷的讓很多的分歧不斷的擴大對我們的傷害其實是越大\n包括我們的國軍弟兄包括我們的海控軍其實他們真的是非常的疲乏包括我們的油料不斷的要增加你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險而不是政治解決這個部分這是我們今天要特別提出來的這個部分包括海巡\n包括我們國安單位其實就這個部分我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的更周全的一個考慮你自己的業務報告其他國家都可以這樣做了我們自己做不到過去跟現在最大的改變就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道我們的分歧不斷的擴大可是當它進到六海裡的時候只是漁船進來我們只是用雷達監控\n我想各種中共的灰色地帶的操作我們確實在執法還有法律的一個運作過程當中要來更細緻來因應它的一個操作因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到的還有一些爭議訊息的散播或是去凸顯管轄權的相關的問題\n現在都已經在發生了,局長這個從頭到尾我們都非常清楚,現在因為時間的關係,最後我想要請教因為徐曉新委員剛剛也有提到,就他提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分,剛剛局長有說借選嘛,在剛好那個時機點,那你看像在\n因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借權\n那這我想尊重那個司法機關他們偵辦的一個過程我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件在...局長我在這裡要提醒一下因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有如果有這樣子的狀況其實不用每一個都推給司法調查司法調查是一個行政調查也是一個今天國安單位如果是影響有委員跟\n中共的女子其實有親密的關係她到底會不會影響這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係這個在國家安全上面本來我們應該要主動介入過去不知道可是當你知道以後你是什麼樣的作為在選舉的期間該有的全部\n不該有的也全部都出現了那這個部分我們都請國安單位其實也要去掌控我們再一次強調雖然有司法調查不代表行政不能調查包括海巡的這個事件因為行政調查是必要的你都應該要隨時掌握不然司法案件有時一拖非常長的時間那你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者在即時可以做一些應處的一個作為\n這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下對於他的船上的一個管道還有IP位置的查找我們這部分都有建議的在IT位置的查找你只是講一個嘛你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛可是你還有羅志正委員啊你還有趙天寧委員啊還有其他的委員啊像這些他會造成什麼樣而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影如果你沒有做那人家就不容易做這樣的一個動作嘛對不對\n那我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已而是它的管道甚至它是不是透過這樣的管道當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去做旅遊或交流的時候都被約談那像這樣子呢你們做了什麼\n對,對於這部分的,我們剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了,他的整個在兩岸交流過程當中,透過國安法制所進行的相關的留置約談或徵訊,我們會針對可能遭到他鎖定的目標的對象,會做一些完整的整理,那也會進行必要的通報,來提醒國人到大陸過程當中要注意的事情,這是我們的職責,我們繼續來做。那像剛剛提到的這些,像趙委員呢?\n對,事實上不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長其他的案子的相關散佈的網絡管道這個我們都有在做我們講的不是散佈的這些管道\n有些只是去旅遊去溝通交流的時候其實都已經被約談了我們現在在乎的是甚至你的身份非常敏感特殊可是你不但沒有去做一個安全的管控或者甚至去掌握是不是有一些洩密的一個作為我想這個國安局就失職了這個後續我們再來討論這個時間謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:03.190\n謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長。邀請局長。好,謝謝主席,馬文早。啊,局長早。局長我想請教一下近期你睡得好嗎?我從來沒有想到睡覺的問題比專業問題還要難回答。因為我講睡得好,好像我不重視台海緊張情勢。我說我睡不好,好像說台海情勢很緊張。好,有在睡覺。\n\n00:31.155 --> 00:45.995\n有在睡覺睡得好不好我想因為國防部長跟國安局長相對的對於台海的局勢我想都是一樣的重視所以現在台海局勢的發展也會影響所有的\n\n00:47.096 --> 00:57.121\n不只是包括我們國防部長還有我們所有的國軍弟兄包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意我想請教局長因為今天也非常多的委員其實都有討論到那現在台海局勢變得這麼緊張我想請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下在這8年前跟8年後我們台海局勢有這麼大的一個改變它最主要的原因是什麼\n\n01:15.373 --> 01:30.719\n我覺得最主要還是中國的整體的戰略行為有出現改變那習近平在上台之後對於整體的國力他充滿了自信那他也預定了他2027因為習近平不是在後來才就任對2012年對可是他過去其實也是都在的所以這樣子的轉變\n\n01:37.102 --> 01:56.216\n就是說可能兩岸的溝通還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下關係都很和緩的情況之下變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張最大的因素除了中共自己本身的戰略還有習近平本身他自己的一個規劃以外還有什麼樣的因素\n\n02:00.154 --> 02:15.735\n我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國的整體的戰略行為的變動這剛剛有跟委員說明到那另一方面他們戰略有什麼樣的變動他們現在對於使用展現自己的國家力量來對外進行一些相關的一個\n\n02:17.077 --> 02:19.140\n過去不是嗎?過去不是嗎?他的積極對台灣做了什麼樣的改變?因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對台的政策上面\n\n02:33.601 --> 02:36.784\n其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通還有很多在不管在哪一方面的一個協同可是現在大家越來越緊張那現在的態勢已經變成這樣我們現在也不再討論這個部分了我想請教局長如果就這樣的情況之下因為現在這麼緊張因為老實說啦一千三百塊就可以收買我們國人看清我們台灣人了啦\n\n03:01.605 --> 03:05.307\n如果是這樣政府加碼你可以補助五千塊我們希望不要把台灣人看得很貪小便宜然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們這是非常可笑的其實在整個國家的政策包括我們自己在制定的很多的政策上面即使是讓國人有很多的\n\n03:23.677 --> 03:23.817\n馬文君\n\n03:46.779 --> 03:59.018\n這個才是我們的優勢不是嗎我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣所以我們現在比較希望在乎的就是說如果以現在大家在這個局勢的分析目前\n\n04:00.404 --> 04:04.866\n等一下也請我們國防部的副部長也上來就是說現在包括我們現在灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾甚至國防部長對於第一級他的一個說法已經有比較具體不過我覺得他的說法讓大家有一點可能有一些是把他\n\n04:19.472 --> 04:20.873\n這部分我想應該要有必要說清楚\n\n04:36.124 --> 04:56.118\n那另外就是在這些方面我想要請教局長我們應該怎麼因應如果以現在甚至在6日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們的海巡艦艇的時候那時候在苗栗就已經\n\n04:57.259 --> 05:14.221\n距離六海里的地方,大陸的大型漁船已經進到這樣六海里,我們有什麼樣的處置作為?看起來那時候是沒有,為什麼?那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題,我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極的建議?\n\n05:15.914 --> 05:32.674\n對我想委員當然也知道現在中共對台的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手的兩手策略的軟的一手硬的一手來對台灣進行施壓跟分化那剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇的部分那這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法\n\n05:33.795 --> 05:57.132\n還有聯合國的憲章一旦有任何的侵略國家的主權或臨海領空的行為必須要有自衛權那這部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當那至於委員認為說在國安上怎麼樣應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略那我們認為還是要強調提升台灣防衛韌性的重要性這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新現代化\n\n05:57.532 --> 06:14.460\n他還包括到我們的能源的韌性、糧食的韌性還有社會的韌性加強居民的合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯台的成本而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向那我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力\n\n06:15.600 --> 06:43.409\n局長你也講到重點了其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的比如說在很多像剛剛有提到的不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源尤其是能源我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大一旦我們台灣遭受封鎖的時候其實對整體的傷害或者\n\n06:44.429 --> 07:11.299\n負面的影響是非常嚴重的就這一點能源的韌性局長是不是再多說明一下對我說明一下也許等一下國防部也補充因為現在國防部有權動署那權動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃那據我所知有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性來做相關現有方案的檢討那以及來改進我們相關的策進作為這部分有在做我自己參加過幾次的會議\n\n07:12.932 --> 07:34.308\n局長如果你有參加過幾次的會議你應該知道權動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關的討論可能也會提到不過今天我們特別提出來我想就這幾個部分因為應該要怎麼樣因應顯然到六海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為\n\n07:37.791 --> 08:03.359\n完全沒有甚至消息也是後來才知道所以就這個部分我想我們應該要包括他的大型漁船包括很多的工程船包括他的小藍人我們最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為而不是只有分析局勢因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了這個部分我們想請後續國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟做法\n\n08:04.159 --> 08:29.336\n另外,因為時間也不多,我想要請教一下,因為剛剛徐巧欣委員有提到了幾個委員我說明一下,那個只要中共的相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關的漁船進入到我們的淨線制水域我們的海巡署一定會有動作,包括進行驅離的動作,這是法律規定這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定那苗栗的那個大型漁船你怎麼看?三艘的那個漁船\n\n08:31.453 --> 08:36.442\n對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況,我們請海巡署來做個補充。已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為?\n\n08:38.218 --> 09:03.963\n委員好這邊特別跟委員報告其實他當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪時間那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以\n\n09:04.924 --> 09:20.302\n這邊特別跟委員報告因為他們的漁船大概都300噸到500噸那我們的循環艇只有100噸所以他如果大型漁船來我們就拿他沒辦法的意思我們是全程有監控用雷達監控但是當天我們根據漁船的航行的速度我們判我們認為他應該是在航行當中\n\n09:23.626 --> 09:27.070\n所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎剛剛國安局長還包括大家平常在講的我們支持海巡我們也認為海巡的這些相關的同仁都非常的辛苦我們也支持海巡執法可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們\n\n09:41.144 --> 09:44.507\n人、船還有包括我們現在要應處的這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為否則你應該要有什麼樣子的包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係他們的衝突性有時非常強大\n\n09:59.301 --> 10:17.291\n在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是這樣的一個關係大國競爭的關係可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險不脫鉤而且會溝通對話管控分歧我們現在不斷的讓很多的分歧不斷的擴大對我們的傷害其實是越大\n\n10:20.313 --> 10:27.200\n包括我們的國軍弟兄包括我們的海控軍其實他們真的是非常的疲乏包括我們的油料不斷的要增加你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險而不是政治解決這個部分這是我們今天要特別提出來的這個部分包括海巡\n\n10:40.872 --> 11:05.672\n包括我們國安單位其實就這個部分我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的更周全的一個考慮你自己的業務報告其他國家都可以這樣做了我們自己做不到過去跟現在最大的改變就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道我們的分歧不斷的擴大可是當它進到六海裡的時候只是漁船進來我們只是用雷達監控\n\n11:07.335 --> 11:23.499\n我想各種中共的灰色地帶的操作我們確實在執法還有法律的一個運作過程當中要來更細緻來因應它的一個操作因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到的還有一些爭議訊息的散播或是去凸顯管轄權的相關的問題\n\n11:26.520 --> 11:45.377\n現在都已經在發生了,局長這個從頭到尾我們都非常清楚,現在因為時間的關係,最後我想要請教因為徐曉新委員剛剛也有提到,就他提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分,剛剛局長有說借選嘛,在剛好那個時機點,那你看像在\n\n11:50.421 --> 12:09.810\n因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借權\n\n12:10.885 --> 12:34.480\n那這我想尊重那個司法機關他們偵辦的一個過程我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件在...局長我在這裡要提醒一下因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有如果有這樣子的狀況其實不用每一個都推給司法調查司法調查是一個行政調查也是一個今天國安單位如果是影響有委員跟\n\n12:35.581 --> 12:53.704\n中共的女子其實有親密的關係她到底會不會影響這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係這個在國家安全上面本來我們應該要主動介入過去不知道可是當你知道以後你是什麼樣的作為在選舉的期間該有的全部\n\n12:54.665 --> 13:14.018\n不該有的也全部都出現了那這個部分我們都請國安單位其實也要去掌控我們再一次強調雖然有司法調查不代表行政不能調查包括海巡的這個事件因為行政調查是必要的你都應該要隨時掌握不然司法案件有時一拖非常長的時間那你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者在即時可以做一些應處的一個作為\n\n13:21.123 --> 13:30.646\n這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下對於他的船上的一個管道還有IP位置的查找我們這部分都有建議的在IT位置的查找你只是講一個嘛你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛可是你還有羅志正委員啊你還有趙天寧委員啊還有其他的委員啊像這些他會造成什麼樣而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影如果你沒有做那人家就不容易做這樣的一個動作嘛對不對\n\n13:48.112 --> 14:05.409\n那我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已而是它的管道甚至它是不是透過這樣的管道當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去做旅遊或交流的時候都被約談那像這樣子呢你們做了什麼\n\n14:06.390 --> 14:32.419\n對,對於這部分的,我們剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了,他的整個在兩岸交流過程當中,透過國安法制所進行的相關的留置約談或徵訊,我們會針對可能遭到他鎖定的目標的對象,會做一些完整的整理,那也會進行必要的通報,來提醒國人到大陸過程當中要注意的事情,這是我們的職責,我們繼續來做。那像剛剛提到的這些,像趙委員呢?\n\n14:33.662 --> 14:36.867\n對,事實上不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長其他的案子的相關散佈的網絡管道這個我們都有在做我們講的不是散佈的這些管道\n\n14:49.066 --> 15:07.412\n有些只是去旅遊去溝通交流的時候其實都已經被約談了我們現在在乎的是甚至你的身份非常敏感特殊可是你不但沒有去做一個安全的管控或者甚至去掌握是不是有一些洩密的一個作為我想這個國安局就失職了這個後續我們再來討論這個時間謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":3.19,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長。邀請局長。好,謝謝主席,馬文早。啊,局長早。局長我想請教一下近期你睡得好嗎?我從來沒有想到睡覺的問題比專業問題還要難回答。因為我講睡得好,好像我不重視台海緊張情勢。我說我睡不好,好像說台海情勢很緊張。好,有在睡覺。"},{"start":31.155,"end":45.995,"text":"有在睡覺睡得好不好我想因為國防部長跟國安局長相對的對於台海的局勢我想都是一樣的重視所以現在台海局勢的發展也會影響所有的"},{"start":47.096,"end":57.121,"text":"不只是包括我們國防部長還有我們所有的國軍弟兄包括我們的國人其實也都非常的在意我想請教局長因為今天也非常多的委員其實都有討論到那現在台海局勢變得這麼緊張我想請局長是不是可以簡單的分析一下在這8年前跟8年後我們台海局勢有這麼大的一個改變它最主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":75.373,"end":90.719,"text":"我覺得最主要還是中國的整體的戰略行為有出現改變那習近平在上台之後對於整體的國力他充滿了自信那他也預定了他2027因為習近平不是在後來才就任對2012年對可是他過去其實也是都在的所以這樣子的轉變"},{"start":97.102,"end":116.216,"text":"就是說可能兩岸的溝通還有在各方面的交流都很頻繁的情況之下關係都很和緩的情況之下變成現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張最大的因素除了中共自己本身的戰略還有習近平本身他自己的一個規劃以外還有什麼樣的因素"},{"start":120.154,"end":135.735,"text":"我覺得最大的因素還是在於中國的整體的戰略行為的變動這剛剛有跟委員說明到那另一方面他們戰略有什麼樣的變動他們現在對於使用展現自己的國家力量來對外進行一些相關的一個"},{"start":137.077,"end":139.14,"text":"過去不是嗎?過去不是嗎?他的積極對台灣做了什麼樣的改變?因為如果以兩會或者長期以來在對台的政策上面"},{"start":153.601,"end":156.784,"text":"其實基本上還是希望採取交流溝通還有很多在不管在哪一方面的一個協同可是現在大家越來越緊張那現在的態勢已經變成這樣我們現在也不再討論這個部分了我想請教局長如果就這樣的情況之下因為現在這麼緊張因為老實說啦一千三百塊就可以收買我們國人看清我們台灣人了啦"},{"start":181.605,"end":185.307,"text":"如果是這樣政府加碼你可以補助五千塊我們希望不要把台灣人看得很貪小便宜然後動不動一點點小恩小惠就可以收買我們這是非常可笑的其實在整個國家的政策包括我們自己在制定的很多的政策上面即使是讓國人有很多的"},{"start":203.677,"end":203.817,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":226.779,"end":239.018,"text":"這個才是我們的優勢不是嗎我們現在常常講的好像不是這樣所以我們現在比較希望在乎的就是說如果以現在大家在這個局勢的分析目前"},{"start":240.404,"end":244.866,"text":"等一下也請我們國防部的副部長也上來就是說現在包括我們現在灰色地帶受到不斷的侵擾甚至國防部長對於第一級他的一個說法已經有比較具體不過我覺得他的說法讓大家有一點可能有一些是把他"},{"start":259.472,"end":260.873,"text":"這部分我想應該要有必要說清楚"},{"start":276.124,"end":296.118,"text":"那另外就是在這些方面我想要請教局長我們應該怎麼因應如果以現在甚至在6日兩位現任的總統跟未來的總統他們一起去看我們的海巡艦艇的時候那時候在苗栗就已經"},{"start":297.259,"end":314.221,"text":"距離六海里的地方,大陸的大型漁船已經進到這樣六海里,我們有什麼樣的處置作為?看起來那時候是沒有,為什麼?那未來會不斷不斷的面臨到這樣的問題,我們國安單位有什麼樣的積極的建議?"},{"start":315.914,"end":332.674,"text":"對我想委員當然也知道現在中共對台的政策主要是透過壓拉兩手的兩手策略的軟的一手硬的一手來對台灣進行施壓跟分化那剛委員有提到說在軍事的恫嚇的部分那這個部分我想國防部也是基於相關的國際法"},{"start":333.795,"end":357.132,"text":"還有聯合國的憲章一旦有任何的侵略國家的主權或臨海領空的行為必須要有自衛權那這部分的界定由國防部來對外說明可能會比較恰當那至於委員認為說在國安上怎麼樣應對中共這種壓拉兩手的策略那我們認為還是要強調提升台灣防衛韌性的重要性這種防衛韌性不只是只有武器硬體的更新現代化"},{"start":357.532,"end":374.46,"text":"他還包括到我們的能源的韌性、糧食的韌性還有社會的韌性加強居民的合作、全民防衛來提升中共可能武力犯台的成本而這個是在烏克蘭戰事之後歐洲國家普遍在重視的國防現代化的方向那我想我們應該要朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":375.6,"end":403.409,"text":"局長你也講到重點了其實我們應該提升非常多的韌性可是這些韌性顯然我們好像還是不足的比如說在很多像剛剛有提到的不管是在社會、經濟或者相關的能源尤其是能源我們現在的能源政策對整個國家安全的影響已經非常的大一旦我們台灣遭受封鎖的時候其實對整體的傷害或者"},{"start":404.429,"end":431.299,"text":"負面的影響是非常嚴重的就這一點能源的韌性局長是不是再多說明一下對我說明一下也許等一下國防部也補充因為現在國防部有權動署那權動署主要就負責在做相關的規劃那據我所知有相關的專案在統合各個部會針對怎麼樣來提升我們防衛跟相關的社會韌性來做相關現有方案的檢討那以及來改進我們相關的策進作為這部分有在做我自己參加過幾次的會議"},{"start":432.932,"end":454.308,"text":"局長如果你有參加過幾次的會議你應該知道權動署跟現在現有的這些人力資源其實是不足的這個未來我們在國防部的一些相關的討論可能也會提到不過今天我們特別提出來我想就這幾個部分因為應該要怎麼樣因應顯然到六海里處我們還沒有一個應處的作為"},{"start":457.791,"end":483.359,"text":"完全沒有甚至消息也是後來才知道所以就這個部分我想我們應該要包括他的大型漁船包括很多的工程船包括他的小藍人我們最後我們應該要怎麼樣去應對的作為而不是只有分析局勢因為現在已經開始面臨這樣的狀況了這個部分我們想請後續國安局要提出更具體的一些建議跟做法"},{"start":484.159,"end":509.336,"text":"另外,因為時間也不多,我想要請教一下,因為剛剛徐巧欣委員有提到了幾個委員我說明一下,那個只要中共的相關的海警、海監、漁政或相關的漁船進入到我們的淨線制水域我們的海巡署一定會有動作,包括進行驅離的動作,這是法律規定這是我們兩岸人民關係的法律規定那苗栗的那個大型漁船你怎麼看?三艘的那個漁船"},{"start":511.453,"end":516.442,"text":"對,相關當天的實際的作業狀況,我們請海巡署來做個補充。已經到了六海里,我們有什麼樣的應處作為?"},{"start":518.218,"end":543.963,"text":"委員好 這邊特別跟委員報告其實他當天那三艘船進來我們在11點多的時候我們的雷達是有全能監控的那我們也立即派遣我們的巡防艇出去應對但是因為當天的海象7到8最高陣風十幾已經超過我們巡防艇的耐浪時間那對方漁船為什麼可以在那裡那麼久你的海象不好我們的船艇沒有辦法為什麼他的漁船可以"},{"start":544.924,"end":560.302,"text":"這邊特別跟委員報告因為他們的漁船大概都300噸到500噸那我們的循環艇只有100噸所以他如果大型漁船來我們就拿他沒辦法的意思我們是全程有監控用雷達監控但是當天我們根據漁船的航行的速度我們判我們認為他應該是在航行當中"},{"start":563.626,"end":567.07,"text":"所以這樣的說法不是有矛盾嗎剛剛國安局長還包括大家平常在講的我們支持海巡我們也認為海巡的這些相關的同仁都非常的辛苦我們也支持海巡執法可是我們現在要面臨的問題是我們"},{"start":581.144,"end":584.507,"text":"人、船還有包括我們現在要應處的這樣的環境對我們會造成的影響你必須有一個具體的規劃跟作為否則你應該要有什麼樣子的包括中美兩大國他們的競爭關係他們的衝突性有時非常強大"},{"start":599.301,"end":617.291,"text":"在我們自己的報告裡面也都提到他們雖然是這樣的一個關係大國競爭的關係可是他們還是在很多地方是採取去風險不脫鉤而且會溝通對話管控分歧我們現在不斷的讓很多的分歧不斷的擴大對我們的傷害其實是越大"},{"start":620.313,"end":627.2,"text":"包括我們的國軍弟兄包括我們的海控軍其實他們真的是非常的疲乏包括我們的油料不斷的要增加你怎麼沒有想到應該用其他的方式去管控風險而不是政治解決這個部分這是我們今天要特別提出來的這個部分包括海巡"},{"start":640.872,"end":665.672,"text":"包括我們國安單位其實就這個部分我覺得應該要再去做一個更好的更周全的一個考慮你自己的業務報告其他國家都可以這樣做了我們自己做不到過去跟現在最大的改變就是我們根本沒有辦法具有溝通的管道我們的分歧不斷的擴大可是當它進到六海裡的時候只是漁船進來我們只是用雷達監控"},{"start":667.335,"end":683.499,"text":"我想各種中共的灰色地帶的操作我們確實在執法還有法律的一個運作過程當中要來更細緻來因應它的一個操作因為常常這種灰色地帶的操作還會牽動到的還有一些爭議訊息的散播或是去凸顯管轄權的相關的問題"},{"start":686.52,"end":705.377,"text":"現在都已經在發生了,局長這個從頭到尾我們都非常清楚,現在因為時間的關係,最後我想要請教因為徐曉新委員剛剛也有提到,就他提出來的四個錄音錄影流出的部分,剛剛局長有說借選嘛,在剛好那個時機點,那你看像在"},{"start":710.421,"end":729.81,"text":"因為兩年前那個錄音檔已經送給國防部送給調查局送給相關單位還包括韓國的駐台代表處因為裡面牽涉到有很多的不法甚至可能會影響到國家的安全他在兩年前通通不查在選舉前提出來這樣有沒有借權"},{"start":730.885,"end":754.48,"text":"那這我想尊重那個司法機關他們偵辦的一個過程我們行政機關不適合對司法審判的案件在...局長我在這裡要提醒一下因為我說的時間點是兩年前就有如果有這樣子的狀況其實不用每一個都推給司法調查司法調查是一個行政調查也是一個今天國安單位如果是影響有委員跟"},{"start":755.581,"end":773.704,"text":"中共的女子其實有親密的關係她到底會不會影響這個部分跟司法調查沒有關係這個在國家安全上面本來我們應該要主動介入過去不知道可是當你知道以後你是什麼樣的作為在選舉的期間該有的全部"},{"start":774.665,"end":794.018,"text":"不該有的也全部都出現了那這個部分我們都請國安單位其實也要去掌控我們再一次強調雖然有司法調查不代表行政不能調查包括海巡的這個事件因為行政調查是必要的你都應該要隨時掌握不然司法案件有時一拖非常長的時間那你怎麼樣去做一個風險管控或者在即時可以做一些應處的一個作為"},{"start":801.123,"end":810.646,"text":"這部分剛剛也跟徐委員有稍微說明一下對於他的船上的一個管道還有IP位置的查找我們這部分都有建議的在IT位置的查找你只是講一個嘛你只是講鄭文燦副院長嘛可是你還有羅志正委員啊你還有趙天寧委員啊還有其他的委員啊像這些他會造成什麼樣而且這麼容易就被錄音錄影如果你沒有做那人家就不容易做這樣的一個動作嘛對不對"},{"start":828.112,"end":845.409,"text":"那我們在乎的不是這個影片的內容而已而是它的管道甚至它是不是透過這樣的管道當有很多的里長或者其他的人員去做旅遊或交流的時候都被約談那像這樣子呢你們做了什麼"},{"start":846.39,"end":872.419,"text":"對,對於這部分的,我們剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過了,他的整個在兩岸交流過程當中,透過國安法制所進行的相關的留置約談或徵訊,我們會針對可能遭到他鎖定的目標的對象,會做一些完整的整理,那也會進行必要的通報,來提醒國人到大陸過程當中要注意的事情,這是我們的職責,我們繼續來做。那像剛剛提到的這些,像趙委員呢?"},{"start":873.662,"end":876.867,"text":"對,事實上不是只有針對鄭文燦副院長其他的案子的相關散佈的網絡管道這個我們都有在做我們講的不是散佈的這些管道"},{"start":889.066,"end":907.412,"text":"有些只是去旅遊去溝通交流的時候其實都已經被約談了我們現在在乎的是甚至你的身份非常敏感特殊可是你不但沒有去做一個安全的管控或者甚至去掌握是不是有一些洩密的一個作為我想這個國安局就失職了這個後續我們再來討論這個時間謝謝"}]}}}}