{"id":149660,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf4300b65bbda42e21eea5ee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a6b19c3c3926b89c555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:44:42 - 10:54:28","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":586,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:54:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:44:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":552,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時44分）主席好，我想請一下李主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。我想公平會對整個臺灣、整個市場當中的公平性，其實有很大的關係。因為我看公平會整個主要的架構，我們今天大概有四個案例要提出來，第一個，是有關於整個電信業合併案，就是2023年7月20號通過遠傳併亞太，10月11號通過了台灣大併台灣之星，這兩個合併案，大概都有一些附加的條件才讓他們通過。我想請教一下到今年為止，他們有提出具體的一個實施成果，有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎？主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：在1年內提出，那是去年的，分別是7月和10月，時間還沒到。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，所以還沒提出嘛？都還沒提出嘛？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我想請教一下，因為消費者回饋的時候就很清楚地直接講，本辦就曾經接到說他們原本是台灣之星的用戶，後來被台哥大併了之後，就經常出現當機的情況，有時候1天當好幾次。對於這樣的狀態，是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件？要如何去維護消費者的一個權益？"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員的垂詢，當時我們的條件是從資費方面，第一個，台灣之星過去的這些合約，都要繼續幫它承受……"],["鄭委員正鈐：除了資費，品質肯定是重要的條件之一啦！"],["李主任委員鎂：一個是資費，一個是提升服務品質，委員提到這個問題，其實NCC已經有一個觀測小組。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你們跟NCC有聯絡？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有一起合作、觀察這件事。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分，後續再把你們跟NCC討論溝通的一個結果給本席。然後我想問一下，如果說電信業者他們違反了當時合併條件的時候，我們之後有沒有什麼救濟的可能性？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果沒有履行這個負擔的話，在公平會是有相當的處罰。"],["鄭委員正鈐：怎麼樣子的處罰？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有一個是罰鍰或者是限期改正等等，會看這個違反的情形。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對於這樣子的合併案，罰鍰跟限期改正基本上已經很難去要求，我講的狀態是說，他們基本上已經違反了條件，就是像服務品質這個問題的時候，他們如果沒有直接去落實，你要他們限期改正，我覺得也是有困難的。不過，因為這個東西還不到1年，我想說你們把跟NCC溝通的結果，給本席辦公室瞭解一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們過去也有處罰的案例，譬如說我們今年就處罰有線電視系統違反先前的這個結合負擔，所以會看案情來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，我再往下，那個部分再給本席辦公室說明。就慶云案這個部分，我知道剛剛主委有回應，另外的委員也有提到慶云案這個問題，因為我覺得慶云案比較特別的點是，因為當時在2017年的時候，公平會直接呼籲慶云案的傳銷商跟公司解約。後來在2023年的時候，其實發現他們負責人的案子，變成是公平會這邊說他們是無罪定讞的一個情況，對於這樣的狀態，公平會這邊要怎麼去因應，後面有沒有什麼救濟的可能性？"],["李主任委員鎂：這是有一個訴訟情形，我們是不是請處長說明。"],["沈處長麗玉：跟委員報告，慶云這家公司，我們移送給苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後，它是有不斷地上訴，所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到，它是有勝訴、有敗訴，而最後的一個結果，法院是沒有判這個負責人有罪。這家公司呢……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我這邊直接問一個點，因為在2017年的時候，公平會就呼籲大家解約，因為當時我們在二審贏的狀態時呼籲解約。問題是打到2023年的時候，法院無罪判決當中，直接表示他們並非變質多層次傳銷，以這樣的狀態來講，公平會之前這樣的一個行政裁決，會不會有一些缺失的部分？你們要怎麼去因應後續的部分？"],["沈處長麗玉：這個在我們當時的判斷，確實那時候法院的見解跟本會的見解可能有所出入，法院那邊是認為說它不是變質，但是我們當時移送的時候，我們認為它是一個變質的傳銷，其實法院的判決見解也有兩度是支持我們，有相同的見解……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，兩度是過程嘛！最後就不是喔！"],["沈處長麗玉：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在這個案子當中，我發現公平會行政走得前面，那法院判決之後打臉了公平會這邊的決議。可是我想講另外一個案子，就是在永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中，事實上信義房屋比較早就提出了這個案子，可是公平會當時說要先司法後行政，跟慶云這個案子剛好是相反的情況。公平會在處理不同個案時有沒有一些標準？比方說針對關鍵字SEO的平臺演算法這樣的案子時，公平會要求先司法後行政，等到司法判決之後，公平會才來做一些後續的行政裁處，跟之前慶云案是完全反過來的一個情況。關於這個部分，公平會怎麼針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷，到底是要先司法還是要先行政？"],["李主任委員鎂：關於變質多層次傳銷，在多層次傳銷管理法第十八條直接就是刑事責任。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是。"],["李主任委員鎂：營業誹謗在第二十四條裡面有規範，所以我們還是會看一下情況。對於永慶跟信義之間的情況，就我的瞭解是有一些訴訟，我們會先判斷這個案子如果很明顯是一個刑事案件，我們會移送司法，該當我們自己行政處理的，我們也會處理。我們上禮拜也處理了一個永慶房屋不實廣告的案例，所以還是要看個案的證據。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，你剛剛特別提到，在慶云這個案件當中是先行政後司法，因為你說是跟多層次傳銷相關的法律有關，可是最後針對他們的負責人，法院直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷。這個部分之後請再到本辦公室來做說明，對於他們這些會員的相關權益，後續是不是可能會有救濟的方式，請一併跟本席說明。","最後，我要問一個狀態，最近大家很關心的是衛福部針對掛號費的部分，主委有沒有看過這個公文？看過喔，這個公文當中很清楚、直接表示，之後我們掛號費的限制取消了，對不對？如果到時候各地方的診所有任何問題，請各地方的衛生局瞭解之後再把問題反映給公平會，是這樣子的處理方式嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，如果他們反映有一些異狀，我們會進行處理，此外公平會也會主動瞭解，如果有異常的情況，我們也會立案。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想問一下，對於掛號費參考基準取消這個部分，公平會支不支持？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想衛福部任何一個政策都應該經過他們審慎評估，我們都尊重。"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果現在有很多診所開始提高掛號費，同一時間提高，金額不一樣，有人提高到200、300或者是250，這樣算不算是聯合行為？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要去查他們橫向之間有沒有勾結、共同講價，如果是個別定個別的，即便是外觀一致，那不當然是違反公平法，還是要看有沒有合意。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為在這個案子當中，我們發現衛福部把責任推到了地方衛生局，之後衛生局如果有問題再跟公平會這邊反映，基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的角色，所以本席也希望公平會能夠跟衛福部薛瑞元部長再做溝通，對於這樣子的動作是不是適合，請主委站在公平會的角度來跟衛福部進行溝通，讓民眾不要擔心掛號費大幅地提高，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個行為我們一定會查處，而且嚴處。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來我們請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","王美惠、王美惠，王美惠委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","陳俊宇、陳俊宇，陳俊宇委員不在。","林俊憲、林俊憲，林俊憲委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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116.168, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 116.168, \"end\": 116.348, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 116.348, \"end\": 117.309, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 117.309, \"end\": 117.569, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 117.569, \"end\": 117.729, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 117.729, \"end\": 117.989, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 117.989, \"end\": 118.529, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 118.529, \"end\": 119.369, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 119.369, \"end\": 119.489, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 119.489, \"end\": 120.189, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 120.189, \"end\": 120.729, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 120.729, \"end\": 120.929, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 120.929, \"end\": 121.089, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 121.089, \"end\": 121.429, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 121.429, \"end\": 121.609, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 121.609, \"end\": 121.729, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 121.729, \"end\": 122.249, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 122.249, \"end\": 122.409, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 122.409, \"end\": 122.65, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 122.65, \"end\": 123.61, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 123.61, \"end\": 123.73, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 123.73, \"end\": 123.91, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 123.91, \"end\": 123.99, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 123.99, \"end\": 124.13, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 124.13, \"end\": 124.31, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 124.31, \"end\": 124.45, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 124.45, \"end\": 124.57, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 124.57, \"end\": 124.59, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"絡\"}]}, {\"start\": 125.45, \"end\": 148.198, \"text\": \"我們有一起合作來觀察這個部分的時候後續再把你們跟NCC討論的溝通的一個結果給本席一下然後我想問一下如果說這個電信業者他們違反了當時的合併條件的時候我們之後有沒有什麼救濟的一個可能性如果沒有履行這個負擔的話在公平會是有相當的處罰\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 125.45, \"end\": 125.73, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 125.73, \"end\": 125.91, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 125.91, \"end\": 126.05, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 126.05, \"end\": 126.31, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 126.31, \"end\": 126.53, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 126.53, \"end\": 127.191, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"救\", \"start\": 142.236, \"end\": 142.596, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 142.596, \"end\": 142.676, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 142.676, \"end\": 142.876, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 142.876, \"end\": 143.016, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 143.016, \"end\": 143.216, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 143.216, \"end\": 143.516, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 143.516, \"end\": 143.916, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 143.916, \"end\": 144.156, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 144.156, \"end\": 144.296, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 144.296, \"end\": 144.476, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"履\", \"start\": 144.476, \"end\": 144.737, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 144.737, \"end\": 145.717, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 145.717, \"end\": 146.117, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 146.117, \"end\": 146.437, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 146.437, \"end\": 146.637, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 146.637, \"end\": 146.817, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 146.817, \"end\": 147.117, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 147.117, \"end\": 147.277, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 147.277, \"end\": 147.778, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 147.778, \"end\": 148.178, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 148.178, \"end\": 148.198, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}]}, {\"start\": 149.437, \"end\": 175.991, \"text\": \"什麼樣的處罰?我們有一個是罰緩或者是限期改正等等會看這個違反的情形對於這樣子的合併案呢 罰緩跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西在一年還沒有到我想說你們\", 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00:01:06,038\n10月11日通過了臺灣大病臺灣之心這兩個合併案其實大概都有一些復加的條件復加條件才讓他們通過我想說請教一下到今年為止他們有提出他們的一個具體的實施成果有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎?這位\n\n4\n00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,841\n對於這樣的狀態的時候是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件?\n\n5\n00:01:38,565 --> 00:02:04,590\n要如何去維護消費者的一個權益?謝謝委員的推詢當時我們的條件是從資費方面第一個,過去這個臺灣之心的過去的這些合約除了資費之外,品質肯定是重要的條件之一那委員提到這個問題其實NCC它已經有一個觀測小組所以你們有跟NCC有聯絡\n\n6\n00:02:05,450 --> 00:02:28,198\n我們有一起合作來觀察這個部分的時候後續再把你們跟NCC討論的溝通的一個結果給本席一下然後我想問一下如果說這個電信業者他們違反了當時的合併條件的時候我們之後有沒有什麼救濟的一個可能性如果沒有履行這個負擔的話在公平會是有相當的處罰\n\n7\n00:02:29,437 --> 00:02:55,991\n什麼樣的處罰?我們有一個是罰緩或者是限期改正等等會看這個違反的情形對於這樣子的合併案呢罰緩跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西在一年還沒有到我想說你們\n\n8\n00:02:57,192 --> 00:03:12,182\n與NCC溝通的結果給本席辦公室了解一下我們過去也有處罰的案例比如說我們今年就處罰那個有線電視系統違反先前的這個結合所以看案前來處理那這個部分我再往下一下那個部分\n\n9\n00:03:12,702 --> 00:03:34,696\n在給本席辦公室來做說明就氣雲案這個部分我知道剛剛主委有回應另外委員有提到氣雲案這個問題因為我覺得氣雲案這個部分我覺得它比較特別的點是因為當時在2017年的時候公平月直接呼籲氣雲案的傳銷商跟公司解約那麼在2023年的時候其實後來就發現了對於他們負責人的案子的時候其實是\n\n10\n00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:44,622\n那是有一個訴訟情形,我們請處長說明\n\n11\n00:04:02,404 --> 00:04:16,541\n是跟這個委員報告慶允這家公司呢那個我們移送給這個苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後呢他是有不斷的這個上訴所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到他是有有勝訴有敗訴那最後的一個結果\n\n12\n00:04:19,043 --> 00:04:44,824\n是法院是沒有判這個負責人他們有罪我這邊直接問一個點在2017年的時候公平就呼籲大家解約嘛因為當時整個我們二省的時候是贏的狀態的時候呼籲解約可是問題是打到2023年的時候法院無罪判定當中直接表示說那個他們並非那個變質多層次傳銷直接表示他們並非多層次傳銷那以這樣的狀態來講的時候我們公平會\n\n13\n00:04:48,607 --> 00:05:10,377\n之前的這樣的一個行政的裁決會不會有一些缺失的部分我們要怎麼去因應後續的部分這個在我們當時的一個判斷其實我確實那時候法院的一個見解跟本會的一個見解可能有所出入那這個法院那邊是認為說它不是變質但是我們當時移送的時候我們是認為它是一個變質的一個傳銷\n\n14\n00:05:14,699 --> 00:05:43,694\n那其實法院的這個判決的見解也有兩度都是支持我們的相同的一個見解兩度是過程嗎?最後就是不是所以在這個案子當中的時候我發現我們公民會行政走的前面那法院判決之後打臉了我們公民會這邊的決議可是我想去講另外一個案子就是在整個那個永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中的時候就是永慶事實上在\n\n15\n00:05:45,191 --> 00:06:10,723\n信義防護比較早就提出了這個案子可是我們公平會當時說要先司法後行政跟棄民這案子剛好是相反的一個情況那我們公平會在處理這不同個案當中的時候有沒有一些標準比方說針對那個關鍵字SEO的部分平台演算法這樣的一個這個案子當中的時候呢那我們公平會這邊是要求先司法後行政\n\n16\n00:06:11,623 --> 00:06:30,589\n所以等到司法判決之後我們公平會才要來做後續的一些行政的一個裁處那跟之前清雲案是完全反過來的一個情況所以說針對這個部分那我們公平會怎麼去針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷到底是要先司法還是要先行政\n\n17\n00:06:45,987 --> 00:06:46,027\n﹚鄭先生﹚\n\n18\n00:07:07,150 --> 00:07:28,209\n好,那你剛剛特別提到就是在慶雲這個案件當中的時候是先行政後司法你說因為是跟多層次傳銷的相關的法律有關可是因為最後針對他們負責的部分法院是直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷這個部分請之後到本辦公室來做一個說明\n\n19\n00:07:29,150 --> 00:07:30,591\n最近大家很關心的其實是衛福部這邊針對掛號費的部分就是諸位有沒有看過這個公文?\n\n20\n00:07:51,502 --> 00:08:13,087\n這個公文當中他很清楚的直接表示我們掛後費之後限制把它取消了對不對然後如果到時候各地方的診所有任何問題請各地方的衛生局再去了解之後再把問題反映給我們公平會是這樣子處理方式嗎?\n\n21\n00:08:13,507 --> 00:08:13,767\n公平會支持?\n\n22\n00:08:29,588 --> 00:08:30,609\n我們要去查他橫向事件有沒有勾結\n\n23\n00:08:50,302 --> 00:08:52,363\n公平交易委員會主任委員會主任\n\n24\n00:09:11,647 --> 00:09:39,670\n基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的一個角色所以本席也希望說公平會這邊能夠跟衛福部跟學聯部長這邊再做一個溝通對於這樣子的一個動作是不是適合那請那個主委這邊站在公平的角度來跟衛福部這邊進行一個溝通讓民眾不要擔心整個那個那個掛號費大幅的提高好不好因為我們一定查處而且嚴處\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9350\t10612\t主席好,我想請一下李主委來,請主委\n19555\t38229\t大家好我想公平會其實對整個台灣整個市場當中的公平性其實有很大的關係因為這個我看這個公平會的整個主要的架構當中的時候我們今天大概有四個案例要提出來第一個是有關於整個電信業合併案就是2023年7月20號通過遠傳併亞太\n41931\t66038\t10月11日通過了臺灣大病臺灣之心這兩個合併案其實大概都有一些復加的條件復加條件才讓他們通過我想說請教一下到今年為止他們有提出他們的一個具體的實施成果有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎?這位\n68840\t70841\t對於這樣的狀態的時候是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件?\n98565\t124590\t要如何去維護消費者的一個權益?謝謝委員的推詢當時我們的條件是從資費方面第一個,過去這個臺灣之心的過去的這些合約除了資費之外,品質肯定是重要的條件之一那委員提到這個問題其實NCC它已經有一個觀測小組所以你們有跟NCC有聯絡\n125450\t148198\t我們有一起合作來觀察這個部分的時候後續再把你們跟NCC討論的溝通的一個結果給本席一下然後我想問一下如果說這個電信業者他們違反了當時的合併條件的時候我們之後有沒有什麼救濟的一個可能性如果沒有履行這個負擔的話在公平會是有相當的處罰\n149437\t175991\t什麼樣的處罰?我們有一個是罰緩或者是限期改正等等會看這個違反的情形對於這樣子的合併案呢 罰緩跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西在一年還沒有到我想說你們\n177192\t192182\t與NCC溝通的結果給本席辦公室了解一下我們過去也有處罰的案例比如說我們今年就處罰那個有線電視系統違反先前的這個結合所以看案前來處理那這個部分我再往下一下那個部分\n192702\t214696\t在給本席辦公室來做說明就氣雲案這個部分我知道剛剛主委有回應另外委員有提到氣雲案這個問題因為我覺得氣雲案這個部分我覺得它比較特別的點是因為當時在2017年的時候公平月直接呼籲氣雲案的傳銷商跟公司解約那麼在2023年的時候其實後來就發現了對於他們負責人的案子的時候其實是\n223240\t224622\t那是有一個訴訟情形,我們請處長說明\n242404\t256541\t是跟這個委員報告慶允這家公司呢那個我們移送給這個苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後呢他是有不斷的這個上訴所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到他是有有勝訴有敗訴那最後的一個結果\n259043\t284824\t是法院是沒有判這個負責人他們有罪我這邊直接問一個點在2017年的時候公平就呼籲大家解約嘛因為當時整個我們二省的時候是贏的狀態的時候呼籲解約可是問題是打到2023年的時候法院無罪判定當中直接表示說那個他們並非那個變質多層次傳銷直接表示他們並非多層次傳銷那以這樣的狀態來講的時候我們公平會\n288607\t310377\t之前的這樣的一個行政的裁決會不會有一些缺失的部分我們要怎麼去因應後續的部分這個在我們當時的一個判斷其實我確實那時候法院的一個見解跟本會的一個見解可能有所出入那這個法院那邊是認為說它不是變質但是我們當時移送的時候我們是認為它是一個變質的一個傳銷\n314699\t343694\t那其實法院的這個判決的見解也有兩度都是支持我們的相同的一個見解兩度是過程嗎?最後就是不是所以在這個案子當中的時候我發現我們公民會行政走的前面那法院判決之後打臉了我們公民會這邊的決議可是我想去講另外一個案子就是在整個那個永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中的時候就是永慶事實上在\n345191\t370723\t信義防護比較早就提出了這個案子可是我們公平會當時說要先司法後行政跟棄民這案子剛好是相反的一個情況那我們公平會在處理這不同個案當中的時候有沒有一些標準比方說針對那個關鍵字SEO的部分平台演算法這樣的一個這個案子當中的時候呢那我們公平會這邊是要求先司法後行政\n371623\t390589\t所以等到司法判決之後我們公平會才要來做後續的一些行政的一個裁處那跟之前清雲案是完全反過來的一個情況所以說針對這個部分那我們公平會怎麼去針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷到底是要先司法還是要先行政\n392142\t405435\t議員會議員會議\n405987\t406027\t﹚鄭先生﹚\n427150\t448209\t好,那你剛剛特別提到就是在慶雲這個案件當中的時候是先行政後司法你說因為是跟多層次傳銷的相關的法律有關可是因為最後針對他們負責的部分法院是直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷這個部分請之後到本辦公室來做一個說明\n449150\t450591\t最近大家很關心的其實是衛福部這邊針對掛號費的部分就是諸位有沒有看過這個公文?\n471502\t493087\t這個公文當中他很清楚的直接表示我們掛後費之後限制把它取消了對不對然後如果到時候各地方的診所有任何問題請各地方的衛生局再去了解之後再把問題反映給我們公平會是這樣子處理方式嗎?\n493507\t493767\t公平會支持?\n509588\t510609\t我們要去查他橫向事件有沒有勾結\n530302\t532363\t公平交易委員會主任委員會主任\n551647\t579670\t基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的一個角色所以本席也希望說公平會這邊能夠跟衛福部跟學聯部長這邊再做一個溝通對於這樣子的一個動作是不是適合那請那個主委這邊站在公平的角度來跟衛福部這邊進行一個溝通讓民眾不要擔心整個那個那個掛號費大幅的提高好不好因為我們一定查處而且嚴處\n580538\t585299\t謝謝!\n","txt":"主席好,我想請一下李主委來,請主委\n大家好我想公平會其實對整個台灣整個市場當中的公平性其實有很大的關係因為這個我看這個公平會的整個主要的架構當中的時候我們今天大概有四個案例要提出來第一個是有關於整個電信業合併案就是2023年7月20號通過遠傳併亞太\n10月11日通過了臺灣大病臺灣之心這兩個合併案其實大概都有一些復加的條件復加條件才讓他們通過我想說請教一下到今年為止他們有提出他們的一個具體的實施成果有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎?這位\n對於這樣的狀態的時候是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件?\n要如何去維護消費者的一個權益?謝謝委員的推詢當時我們的條件是從資費方面第一個,過去這個臺灣之心的過去的這些合約除了資費之外,品質肯定是重要的條件之一那委員提到這個問題其實NCC它已經有一個觀測小組所以你們有跟NCC有聯絡\n我們有一起合作來觀察這個部分的時候後續再把你們跟NCC討論的溝通的一個結果給本席一下然後我想問一下如果說這個電信業者他們違反了當時的合併條件的時候我們之後有沒有什麼救濟的一個可能性如果沒有履行這個負擔的話在公平會是有相當的處罰\n什麼樣的處罰?我們有一個是罰緩或者是限期改正等等會看這個違反的情形對於這樣子的合併案呢 罰緩跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西在一年還沒有到我想說你們\n與NCC溝通的結果給本席辦公室了解一下我們過去也有處罰的案例比如說我們今年就處罰那個有線電視系統違反先前的這個結合所以看案前來處理那這個部分我再往下一下那個部分\n在給本席辦公室來做說明就氣雲案這個部分我知道剛剛主委有回應另外委員有提到氣雲案這個問題因為我覺得氣雲案這個部分我覺得它比較特別的點是因為當時在2017年的時候公平月直接呼籲氣雲案的傳銷商跟公司解約那麼在2023年的時候其實後來就發現了對於他們負責人的案子的時候其實是\n那是有一個訴訟情形,我們請處長說明\n是跟這個委員報告慶允這家公司呢那個我們移送給這個苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後呢他是有不斷的這個上訴所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到他是有有勝訴有敗訴那最後的一個結果\n是法院是沒有判這個負責人他們有罪我這邊直接問一個點在2017年的時候公平就呼籲大家解約嘛因為當時整個我們二省的時候是贏的狀態的時候呼籲解約可是問題是打到2023年的時候法院無罪判定當中直接表示說那個他們並非那個變質多層次傳銷直接表示他們並非多層次傳銷那以這樣的狀態來講的時候我們公平會\n之前的這樣的一個行政的裁決會不會有一些缺失的部分我們要怎麼去因應後續的部分這個在我們當時的一個判斷其實我確實那時候法院的一個見解跟本會的一個見解可能有所出入那這個法院那邊是認為說它不是變質但是我們當時移送的時候我們是認為它是一個變質的一個傳銷\n那其實法院的這個判決的見解也有兩度都是支持我們的相同的一個見解兩度是過程嗎?最後就是不是所以在這個案子當中的時候我發現我們公民會行政走的前面那法院判決之後打臉了我們公民會這邊的決議可是我想去講另外一個案子就是在整個那個永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中的時候就是永慶事實上在\n信義防護比較早就提出了這個案子可是我們公平會當時說要先司法後行政跟棄民這案子剛好是相反的一個情況那我們公平會在處理這不同個案當中的時候有沒有一些標準比方說針對那個關鍵字SEO的部分平台演算法這樣的一個這個案子當中的時候呢那我們公平會這邊是要求先司法後行政\n所以等到司法判決之後我們公平會才要來做後續的一些行政的一個裁處那跟之前清雲案是完全反過來的一個情況所以說針對這個部分那我們公平會怎麼去針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷到底是要先司法還是要先行政\n議員會議員會議\n﹚鄭先生﹚\n好,那你剛剛特別提到就是在慶雲這個案件當中的時候是先行政後司法你說因為是跟多層次傳銷的相關的法律有關可是因為最後針對他們負責的部分法院是直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷這個部分請之後到本辦公室來做一個說明\n最近大家很關心的其實是衛福部這邊針對掛號費的部分就是諸位有沒有看過這個公文?\n這個公文當中他很清楚的直接表示我們掛後費之後限制把它取消了對不對然後如果到時候各地方的診所有任何問題請各地方的衛生局再去了解之後再把問題反映給我們公平會是這樣子處理方式嗎?\n公平會支持?\n我們要去查他橫向事件有沒有勾結\n公平交易委員會主任委員會主任\n基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的一個角色所以本席也希望說公平會這邊能夠跟衛福部跟學聯部長這邊再做一個溝通對於這樣子的一個動作是不是適合那請那個主委這邊站在公平的角度來跟衛福部這邊進行一個溝通讓民眾不要擔心整個那個那個掛號費大幅的提高好不好因為我們一定查處而且嚴處\n謝謝!\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.350 --> 00:10.612\n主席好,我想請一下李主委來,請主委\n\n00:19.555 --> 00:38.229\n大家好我想公平會其實對整個台灣整個市場當中的公平性其實有很大的關係因為這個我看這個公平會的整個主要的架構當中的時候我們今天大概有四個案例要提出來第一個是有關於整個電信業合併案就是2023年7月20號通過遠傳併亞太\n\n00:41.931 --> 01:06.038\n10月11日通過了臺灣大病臺灣之心這兩個合併案其實大概都有一些復加的條件復加條件才讓他們通過我想說請教一下到今年為止他們有提出他們的一個具體的實施成果有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎?這位\n\n01:08.840 --> 01:10.841\n對於這樣的狀態的時候是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件?\n\n01:38.565 --> 02:04.590\n要如何去維護消費者的一個權益?謝謝委員的推詢當時我們的條件是從資費方面第一個,過去這個臺灣之心的過去的這些合約除了資費之外,品質肯定是重要的條件之一那委員提到這個問題其實NCC它已經有一個觀測小組所以你們有跟NCC有聯絡\n\n02:05.450 --> 02:28.198\n我們有一起合作來觀察這個部分的時候後續再把你們跟NCC討論的溝通的一個結果給本席一下然後我想問一下如果說這個電信業者他們違反了當時的合併條件的時候我們之後有沒有什麼救濟的一個可能性如果沒有履行這個負擔的話在公平會是有相當的處罰\n\n02:29.437 --> 02:55.991\n什麼樣的處罰?我們有一個是罰緩或者是限期改正等等會看這個違反的情形對於這樣子的合併案呢罰緩跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西在一年還沒有到我想說你們\n\n02:57.192 --> 03:12.182\n與NCC溝通的結果給本席辦公室了解一下我們過去也有處罰的案例比如說我們今年就處罰那個有線電視系統違反先前的這個結合所以看案前來處理那這個部分我再往下一下那個部分\n\n03:12.702 --> 03:34.696\n在給本席辦公室來做說明就氣雲案這個部分我知道剛剛主委有回應另外委員有提到氣雲案這個問題因為我覺得氣雲案這個部分我覺得它比較特別的點是因為當時在2017年的時候公平月直接呼籲氣雲案的傳銷商跟公司解約那麼在2023年的時候其實後來就發現了對於他們負責人的案子的時候其實是\n\n03:43.240 --> 03:44.622\n那是有一個訴訟情形,我們請處長說明\n\n04:02.404 --> 04:16.541\n是跟這個委員報告慶允這家公司呢那個我們移送給這個苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後呢他是有不斷的這個上訴所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到他是有有勝訴有敗訴那最後的一個結果\n\n04:19.043 --> 04:44.824\n是法院是沒有判這個負責人他們有罪我這邊直接問一個點在2017年的時候公平就呼籲大家解約嘛因為當時整個我們二省的時候是贏的狀態的時候呼籲解約可是問題是打到2023年的時候法院無罪判定當中直接表示說那個他們並非那個變質多層次傳銷直接表示他們並非多層次傳銷那以這樣的狀態來講的時候我們公平會\n\n04:48.607 --> 05:10.377\n之前的這樣的一個行政的裁決會不會有一些缺失的部分我們要怎麼去因應後續的部分這個在我們當時的一個判斷其實我確實那時候法院的一個見解跟本會的一個見解可能有所出入那這個法院那邊是認為說它不是變質但是我們當時移送的時候我們是認為它是一個變質的一個傳銷\n\n05:14.699 --> 05:43.694\n那其實法院的這個判決的見解也有兩度都是支持我們的相同的一個見解兩度是過程嗎?最後就是不是所以在這個案子當中的時候我發現我們公民會行政走的前面那法院判決之後打臉了我們公民會這邊的決議可是我想去講另外一個案子就是在整個那個永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中的時候就是永慶事實上在\n\n05:45.191 --> 06:10.723\n信義防護比較早就提出了這個案子可是我們公平會當時說要先司法後行政跟棄民這案子剛好是相反的一個情況那我們公平會在處理這不同個案當中的時候有沒有一些標準比方說針對那個關鍵字SEO的部分平台演算法這樣的一個這個案子當中的時候呢那我們公平會這邊是要求先司法後行政\n\n06:11.623 --> 06:30.589\n所以等到司法判決之後我們公平會才要來做後續的一些行政的一個裁處那跟之前清雲案是完全反過來的一個情況所以說針對這個部分那我們公平會怎麼去針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷到底是要先司法還是要先行政\n\n06:45.987 --> 06:46.027\n﹚鄭先生﹚\n\n07:07.150 --> 07:28.209\n好,那你剛剛特別提到就是在慶雲這個案件當中的時候是先行政後司法你說因為是跟多層次傳銷的相關的法律有關可是因為最後針對他們負責的部分法院是直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷這個部分請之後到本辦公室來做一個說明\n\n07:29.150 --> 07:30.591\n最近大家很關心的其實是衛福部這邊針對掛號費的部分就是諸位有沒有看過這個公文?\n\n07:51.502 --> 08:13.087\n這個公文當中他很清楚的直接表示我們掛後費之後限制把它取消了對不對然後如果到時候各地方的診所有任何問題請各地方的衛生局再去了解之後再把問題反映給我們公平會是這樣子處理方式嗎?\n\n08:13.507 --> 08:13.767\n公平會支持?\n\n08:29.588 --> 08:30.609\n我們要去查他橫向事件有沒有勾結\n\n08:50.302 --> 08:52.363\n公平交易委員會主任委員會主任\n\n09:11.647 --> 09:39.670\n基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的一個角色所以本席也希望說公平會這邊能夠跟衛福部跟學聯部長這邊再做一個溝通對於這樣子的一個動作是不是適合那請那個主委這邊站在公平的角度來跟衛福部這邊進行一個溝通讓民眾不要擔心整個那個那個掛號費大幅的提高好不好因為我們一定查處而且嚴處\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.35,"end":10.612,"text":"主席好,我想請一下李主委來,請主委"},{"start":19.555,"end":38.229,"text":"大家好我想公平會其實對整個台灣整個市場當中的公平性其實有很大的關係因為這個我看這個公平會的整個主要的架構當中的時候我們今天大概有四個案例要提出來第一個是有關於整個電信業合併案就是2023年7月20號通過遠傳併亞太"},{"start":41.931,"end":66.038,"text":"10月11日通過了臺灣大病臺灣之心這兩個合併案其實大概都有一些復加的條件復加條件才讓他們通過我想說請教一下到今年為止他們有提出他們的一個具體的實施成果有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎?這位"},{"start":68.84,"end":70.841,"text":"對於這樣的狀態的時候是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件?"},{"start":98.565,"end":124.59,"text":"要如何去維護消費者的一個權益?謝謝委員的推詢當時我們的條件是從資費方面第一個,過去這個臺灣之心的過去的這些合約除了資費之外,品質肯定是重要的條件之一那委員提到這個問題其實NCC它已經有一個觀測小組所以你們有跟NCC有聯絡"},{"start":125.45,"end":148.198,"text":"我們有一起合作來觀察這個部分的時候後續再把你們跟NCC討論的溝通的一個結果給本席一下然後我想問一下如果說這個電信業者他們違反了當時的合併條件的時候我們之後有沒有什麼救濟的一個可能性如果沒有履行這個負擔的話在公平會是有相當的處罰"},{"start":149.437,"end":175.991,"text":"什麼樣的處罰?我們有一個是罰緩或者是限期改正等等會看這個違反的情形對於這樣子的合併案呢 罰緩跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西在一年還沒有到我想說你們"},{"start":177.192,"end":192.182,"text":"與NCC溝通的結果給本席辦公室了解一下我們過去也有處罰的案例比如說我們今年就處罰那個有線電視系統違反先前的這個結合所以看案前來處理那這個部分我再往下一下那個部分"},{"start":192.702,"end":214.696,"text":"在給本席辦公室來做說明就氣雲案這個部分我知道剛剛主委有回應另外委員有提到氣雲案這個問題因為我覺得氣雲案這個部分我覺得它比較特別的點是因為當時在2017年的時候公平月直接呼籲氣雲案的傳銷商跟公司解約那麼在2023年的時候其實後來就發現了對於他們負責人的案子的時候其實是"},{"start":223.24,"end":224.622,"text":"那是有一個訴訟情形,我們請處長說明"},{"start":242.404,"end":256.541,"text":"是跟這個委員報告慶允這家公司呢那個我們移送給這個苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後呢他是有不斷的這個上訴所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到他是有有勝訴有敗訴那最後的一個結果"},{"start":259.043,"end":284.824,"text":"是法院是沒有判這個負責人他們有罪我這邊直接問一個點在2017年的時候公平就呼籲大家解約嘛因為當時整個我們二省的時候是贏的狀態的時候呼籲解約可是問題是打到2023年的時候法院無罪判定當中直接表示說那個他們並非那個變質多層次傳銷直接表示他們並非多層次傳銷那以這樣的狀態來講的時候我們公平會"},{"start":288.607,"end":310.377,"text":"之前的這樣的一個行政的裁決會不會有一些缺失的部分我們要怎麼去因應後續的部分這個在我們當時的一個判斷其實我確實那時候法院的一個見解跟本會的一個見解可能有所出入那這個法院那邊是認為說它不是變質但是我們當時移送的時候我們是認為它是一個變質的一個傳銷"},{"start":314.699,"end":343.694,"text":"那其實法院的這個判決的見解也有兩度都是支持我們的相同的一個見解兩度是過程嗎?最後就是不是所以在這個案子當中的時候我發現我們公民會行政走的前面那法院判決之後打臉了我們公民會這邊的決議可是我想去講另外一個案子就是在整個那個永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中的時候就是永慶事實上在"},{"start":345.191,"end":370.723,"text":"信義防護比較早就提出了這個案子可是我們公平會當時說要先司法後行政跟棄民這案子剛好是相反的一個情況那我們公平會在處理這不同個案當中的時候有沒有一些標準比方說針對那個關鍵字SEO的部分平台演算法這樣的一個這個案子當中的時候呢那我們公平會這邊是要求先司法後行政"},{"start":371.623,"end":390.589,"text":"所以等到司法判決之後我們公平會才要來做後續的一些行政的一個裁處那跟之前清雲案是完全反過來的一個情況所以說針對這個部分那我們公平會怎麼去針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷到底是要先司法還是要先行政"},{"start":392.142,"end":405.435,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":405.987,"end":406.027,"text":"﹚鄭先生﹚"},{"start":427.15,"end":448.209,"text":"好,那你剛剛特別提到就是在慶雲這個案件當中的時候是先行政後司法你說因為是跟多層次傳銷的相關的法律有關可是因為最後針對他們負責的部分法院是直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷這個部分請之後到本辦公室來做一個說明"},{"start":449.15,"end":450.591,"text":"最近大家很關心的其實是衛福部這邊針對掛號費的部分就是諸位有沒有看過這個公文?"},{"start":471.502,"end":493.087,"text":"這個公文當中他很清楚的直接表示我們掛後費之後限制把它取消了對不對然後如果到時候各地方的診所有任何問題請各地方的衛生局再去了解之後再把問題反映給我們公平會是這樣子處理方式嗎?"},{"start":493.507,"end":493.767,"text":"公平會支持?"},{"start":509.588,"end":510.609,"text":"我們要去查他橫向事件有沒有勾結"},{"start":530.302,"end":532.363,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":551.647,"end":579.67,"text":"基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的一個角色所以本席也希望說公平會這邊能夠跟衛福部跟學聯部長這邊再做一個溝通對於這樣子的一個動作是不是適合那請那個主委這邊站在公平的角度來跟衛福部這邊進行一個溝通讓民眾不要擔心整個那個那個掛號費大幅的提高好不好因為我們一定查處而且嚴處"},{"start":580.538,"end":585.299,"text":"謝謝!"}]}}}}