{"id":149661,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf430037a0aa67daec7a28af4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a61c4693f331ba09535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:45:02 - 10:57:56","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":774,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:57:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:45:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":403,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時45分）麻煩請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早！"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，我先針對國安局統合的角色進行質詢，我把它簡單地做一個統整，大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反介選、反恐攻，其中在你們的政策方針裡面，我看到屢次出現「預警」這兩個字，預警就是在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來，來警告國人或者是相關的機關。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：在最近其實不只是臺灣，在美國常常會有一些相關的、重大的預警措施，比方說美國有對俄羅斯、莫斯科的美國公民發出警告，有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊，比方說在一些重大的基礎建設發生恐怖攻擊，或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前，美國也可能會提出警告。我想知道國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候，你們的預警機制是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：依照國安局組織法跟國家情報工作法，國安局本來就負責指導、統合、協調國內總共11個情報機關跟視同情報機關。就情報作業的角度來講，對於各種可能造成國家安全的危害，不管是來自於內部或外部，我們都會跟我們的協情單位，也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關透過各種的專案，利用專案的機制蒐集相關的情資，也會把相關的情資及最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來分享，以便事先應處，不是在事件發生之後再應處，而是能夠事先預警來應處。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。我的意思是在你們具體掌握情資、統整各個情報機構之後，你們足夠的相信可能會在48小時或24小時發生，你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警？比方說國防部之前針對飛行器或者是超過卡門線的相關飛行物經過時，他們會出現預警，但我們講的不是這一種，我們講的是有可能立即危害公眾安全的狀況，你們有這樣的機制嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有。我剛剛提到的專案機制，就是類似委員所提醒的。"],["陳委員冠廷：發布的標準呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：發布的標準要看相關的樣態，因為安全威脅可能會有不同的威脅來源、不同的狀況都有，以我們的機制來講，一定會在第一時間掌握。老實講，在去年的二合一大選，我們這樣的機制運作還算合作地非常密切。"],["陳委員冠廷：我之所以這樣說的原因，我還是要做個結論，即國防部在選前馬上進行通報，透過這樣各個不同的電子裝置通報，造成的效果有人說是……有正有負啦！有一些反效果，也有一些正面的效果，就是至少國防部有掌握。但是我們還是要知道，如果有遇到重大的話，比方說其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的國家安全事件，就是有人要在相關的這些高鐵引爆炸彈，後來當然是被偵破，所以防止這件事情發生。我的意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前，我們必須需要有一個機制做全民的通報，我想這是非常重要的，因為情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警，不然單純的蒐集情報，然後把它放在檔案庫裡面，沒有任何的意義。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：它必須要跟公共安全有直接的結合，這也直接導引到我的下一個問題，我想最近有許多國會議員、我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的……聽說啦！我們跟不同的機關來去請教，IP位置都是來自境外，這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有在去搜尋可能的可能性、各種不同的可能性，我們也不能夠單純的說這一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡，我們不知道，但我想知道國安局有什麼樣的方式去應處？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個因為已經是一個多年的案子，跟委員大概報告一下，從2021年的9月到昨天為止，網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件，刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理，針對最近所發生的這種網路恐嚇案，我們的相關資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍人士所發動的，大部分都是由單一的個人來發動。我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過，主要的恐嚇對象包括有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的服務信箱，都有在蒐集相關的資訊，因為主要是來自於境外的陸籍人士，所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明，他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報，以防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生。"],["陳委員冠廷：這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好，當然是有一定程度的威脅，但是除了這個之外，他利用這樣子的公眾訊息，在我們一般大眾裡面去操弄不安的訊息，這才是一個很大的問題。因為不管是利用誰的人頭帳戶，他只要把這個訊息傳出去，再透過媒體傳播的話，那大家就會覺得有不安的感覺，好像立法委員受到威脅，可是我們沒辦法能夠在一定的期限內，至少知道大概是什麼樣的機關組織或者是個人做這件事情。所以情報的另外一個工作當然除了內部參考之外，也是向公眾釋出訊息，就是說國安局也好、各大情資單位知道是誰，知道為什麼他們做、知道資金的來源是什麼，這樣的話對民眾來講，是比較能夠確保他們自己會有安全感。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：情報的意義有很多種，因為我想局長也是學者出身，您不是軍人出身，所以你要知道對於國防來講，人民的組成是非常重要的，就是人民反映在輿論、人民反映在各種不同威脅的時候，他們可能會恐慌，我們可能會恐慌，我們也來自民間，所以確保資訊傳播的可信度，我們寧願不說話，但我們講話就要有一定的真憑性，就是要有證據，這個部分我也是希望能夠透過這樣的機會，來跟國安局長講這件事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們會注意。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來就是針對中共組織犯罪的部分，我們知道統促黨的何建華等人2020年是遭到檢察官起訴，這個案件我看根據新聞上面來講的話，都是調查局主責，已經有正式的起訴，但是在2月29號有宣判，因為證據不足獲判無罪，這個案子國安局當初有沒有掌握情資？有沒有分享情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：相關的案件我們都有分享情資，也跟委員報告說明一下，怎麼樣讓這些中共對臺灣統戰滲透的案件，它的立案率能夠比較高，事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力，邀集包括我們的國安單位、檢察機關還有調查機關，甚至還有相關的講習來訓練我們檢察官，在偵辦這些案件的過程當中，可以更知道中共滲透的手法，以及在偵辦查察的過程當中，怎麼樣找到相關的立案指標，將來移送到檢方跟院方成案機會會比較大，這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以簡而言之，你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構……"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有、有，要件……"],["陳委員冠廷：要件都有跟他們分享，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個跟委員報告一下，最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關指標，目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件，我們法規的要件可以更完備。"],["陳委員冠廷：我特別講到這個法律的部分，是因為我們知道說有不同的，包含調查局、國安局，其實在各個不同的縣市都有駐處、都有駐人員在此地、在各地，這個部分在蒐集情報的方面，或者是說你到時候要正式立案的話，情報的方針就很重要，還有情報的互享也非常重要。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們當然知道國安局根據你們組織法是指導、協調、支援，針對支援這個部分，我知道各大情資單位都會有定期的平臺來去交流，我還記得過去我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織，我發覺到外交部有自己的小房間，各個局處有自己的小房間，各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整，所以在於統合、指導、協調，這不是文字上面的意義……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然、當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：它必須要做真切上面的資訊交換，所以特別是在指導方針、情報的蒐集還有怎麼樣立案，我是希望它不是只有在比較高層的文官，到最基層的文官都要有非常完整的講習……"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：把這樣子能夠立案，不然花費這麼大的心思，經歷過3年多，犯罪事實其實都很明顯，但是還是沒有辦法正式的去做宣判，所以這其實都是代表說我們蒐集證據的部分一定有一些指標要去遵循，這個部分還是希望局長能夠更加快速地去做反應，這個是非常重要的。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，大概有兩部分跟委員說明，一個部分是我們的情報機關跟視同情報機關，各種的專案協調機制，這部分剛剛有稍微跟委員介紹一下；另外，跟跨部會之間的情報協調，我們也有國家情報協調會報，由本人來主持，邀請各部會相關的正副首長來一起討論……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，局長，這個我知道，這些相關會報都有，所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分，可能這就是考驗領導人的能力，能不能夠至少要留下legacy，把這樣的傳統留下來，不要說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去……"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有，有個機制的。"],["陳委員冠廷：然後同時出團，但是各自在負責各自不同的事情，那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在，這非常重要，所以我們希望局長能夠把這個東西留下來，做一個好的legacy，能夠傳承下去。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，統合機制的建立，我們都有把它完備，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：這非常重要，不然各自在做各自的話，那我會覺得有點遺憾。"],["蔡局長明彥：這也是我們國安局的角色，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：在你們政策方針裡面有提到情報交流的合作、接軌國際社會，意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的合作跟交流，資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為現在整個中共在區域裡面擴張的動作越來越多，也造成國際社會很關注到不只是臺海情勢，整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切，所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會，來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題交換資訊跟情資，特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及它相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢。"],["陳委員冠廷：除了大方面的戰略之外，我們當然是碰到比較細節，比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩部分，這樣的問題其實我們辦公室也已經找到中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到，裡面還包括海軍租用的中華電信衛星、3年前跟諾魯的這些資通合作會議，或者是海巡署的巡護九號艦艇等等，這些部分都有相關的東西出去。我的意思是說如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握這些資訊到底問題出在哪裡的話，國安局有沒有辦法提出協調、協助？"],["蔡局長明彥：大概有兩個面向，第一個部分是就中華電信的部分，他們針對委員所提到的這個個案，已經跟目的事業主管機關交通部有做相關的通報，另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報，這是個案的部分，那調查局也已經立案在偵辦，這是第一個面向。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們知道是……"],["蔡局長明彥：第二個面向是假如說它的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話，那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位，針對他們資通訊的安全、相關的環境，來提升跟加強還有改善，這部分……"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，我的意思是說除了技術上面知道它的問題在哪裡，在人為因素的部分之外，就是機構跟機構的情報交流，比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話，也是希望說能夠利用這種平臺，把它傳遞給相關的局處，就是說你們可能得到情報的管道更多，所以……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且我們現在也在協助相關國安單位來訓練他們的資安人員，未來兩、三年內應該會訓練出來大概一千多到兩千的資安人員在國安團隊裡面。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，非常感謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"id":"149661","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149661","tool":"pyannote","id":"149661-pyannote"},"job_id":"5wXm5TXMkaATW8Tj","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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00:00:51,215\n我看到有屢次出現預警這兩個字預警就是說在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來來警告國人或者是相關的機關那其實在最近其實不只是台灣在這個美國常常會有一些相關的重大的這個預警措施比方說美國有像這個\n\n4\n00:00:52,856 --> 00:01:12,944\n美國公民發出警告說有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊比方說在一些重大的基礎建設那在發生恐怖攻擊或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前那美國也可能會提出警告我想知道說國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候你們的預警機制是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:14,178 --> 00:01:30,343\n對,依照國安局的組織法跟國家情報工作法國安局本來就負責指導、統合、協調國內總共有11個情報機關跟4同情報機關那就情報作業的角度來講對於各種可能國家安全的危害不管是來自於內部或外部\n\n6\n00:01:30,703 --> 00:01:50,071\n我們都會跟我們的協情單位也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關有透過各種的專案來利用專案的機制收集相關的情資那也會把相關的情資還有最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來做分享一定來事先應處不是在事件發生之後再應處而是能夠事先預警來應處\n\n7\n00:01:51,011 --> 00:02:05,707\n謝謝局長我的意思是說在具體可能你們掌握的情資統整各個情報機構之後你們有足夠的相信它可能會在比如說48小時24小時發生你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警比方說國防部之前\n\n8\n00:02:07,349 --> 00:02:20,147\n針對這種飛行器或者是這個超過卡門線的相關的這種飛行物經過的時候它會出現預警但我們講的不是這一種我們講的是說有可能立即危害公眾安全的這種狀況你們有這樣的機制嗎?\n\n9\n00:02:23,271 --> 00:02:44,250\n發佈的標準呢?發佈的標準要看相關的一個樣態因為可能的安全威脅有不同的威脅來源不同的狀況都有那以我們的機制來講一定會在第一時間來掌握老實講在去年的二合一大選我們這樣的機制的運作還算非常的合作的非常的密切\n\n10\n00:02:44,949 --> 00:03:01,077\n我之所以這樣說的原因我還是做一個結論就是說在國防部在這個選前馬上得通報那透過這樣子的各個不同的電子裝置通報那造成的效果有人說是有正有負有一些反效果有一些正面的效果就是至少說國防部有掌握\n\n11\n00:03:01,897 --> 00:03:25,220\n但是我們還是要知道說如果有遇到重大比方說之前其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的一個國家安全的事件就是有人要引爆炸彈在這個相關的這些高鐵那後來當然是被偵破所以說防止這件事情發生我意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前我們必須要有一個機制做全民的通報我想這是一個非常重要的因為\n\n12\n00:03:26,141 --> 00:03:40,797\n情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警不然情報單純的收集情報然後把它放在檔案庫裡面沒有任何的意義它必須要跟公共安全會有直接的結合這也直接導引到我的下一個問題\n\n13\n00:03:41,578 --> 00:04:08,208\n我想最近有許多國會議員我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的這個我看聽說我們是跟不同的這個機關來去請教IP位置都是來自境外那這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有在去搜尋那這個可能的這個可能性各種不同可能性我們也不能夠單純的說一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡我們不知道那我想知道說國安局有什麼樣的方式來去應處\n\n14\n00:04:09,928 --> 00:04:36,007\n這案子因為已經是一個多年的案子了跟委員大概報告一下從2021年的9月到昨天為止網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件那刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理那針對最近所發生的這種網路的恐嚇案我們的相關的資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍的人士所發動的\n\n15\n00:04:36,787 --> 00:05:04,108\n那大部分都是由單一的個人來發動那我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過那主要的恐嚇對象包括的有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的一個服務信箱那都有在收集相關的一個資訊那也會因為主要是來自於境外的入籍人士所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明說他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報來防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生\n\n16\n00:05:04,948 --> 00:05:24,916\n這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好當然是有一定程度的威脅但是除了這個之外他利用這樣子的公眾訊息來去把操弄不安的訊息在我們的一般的這個大眾裡面這才是一個很大的問題因為只要是不管是利用誰的這個人頭賬戶他只要把這個訊息傳出去再透過媒體傳播的話\n\n17\n00:05:25,956 --> 00:05:27,436\n對民眾來講是一個比較能夠確保他們自己會比較安全感\n\n18\n00:05:55,521 --> 00:06:03,414\n情報的意義有很多種因為我想這個局長也是學者出身所以他您不是軍人出身所以你要知道說對於國防來講\n\n19\n00:06:05,316 --> 00:06:05,356\n陳冠廷\n\n20\n00:06:35,556 --> 00:06:56,593\n的這個何靜華等人那經過2020年是遭警察官起訴那這個案件我看是根據新聞上面來講的話都是調查局是主責那已經有正式的起訴但是在2月29號有宣判他是說因為證據不足獲判無罪這個案子國防國安局當初有沒有掌握情資有沒有分享情資\n\n21\n00:06:57,501 --> 00:07:13,029\n對,相關的案件我們都有分享情資那也跟委員報告說明一下就怎麼樣讓這些中共對台灣的統戰滲透的案件它的立案率能夠比較高事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力那邀集的包括我們的國安單位還有\n\n22\n00:07:14,070 --> 00:07:16,732\n這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向。\n\n23\n00:07:37,585 --> 00:07:55,970\n所以簡而言之你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構要件都有把他們分享對不對這個跟委員報告一下最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關的指標目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件我們的法規的要件可以更完備\n\n24\n00:07:57,233 --> 00:08:20,108\n我特別講到這個法律的部分是因為我們知道說有不同的包含調查局、國安局其實在各個不同的縣市都有住處都有住人員在此地在各地那這個部分就是說在收集情報的方面或者是說到時候要政治立案的話那情報的這個方針就很重要那還有情報的互相也非常重要我們當然知道說國安局他的這個根據你們組織法是指導協調支援\n\n25\n00:08:23,169 --> 00:08:43,698\n針對資源這個部分我知道都會有各大情治單位都會有定期的這個平台來去交流但我還記得說過去我參加我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織我發現到外交部有自己的小房間各個局處有自己的小房間各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整所以在於統合指導協調這不是\n\n26\n00:08:45,979 --> 00:09:05,152\n文字上面的意義那他必須要做真切上面的資訊的交換所以特別是在這個指導方針情報的收集還有怎麼樣立案這個我是希望說他不是只有在比較高層的文官到最基層的文官都要有非常完整的講習\n\n27\n00:09:06,593 --> 00:09:06,793\n陳冠廷\n\n28\n00:09:22,819 --> 00:09:23,880\n請國防部副部長蔡明彥報告\n\n29\n00:09:51,316 --> 00:10:12,999\n這個局長我們知道這些相關的匯報都有所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分可能這就是考驗領導人的能力能不能夠至少要留下legacy把這樣的傳統留下來不要說說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去然後同時出團但是各自在負責各自不同的事情那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在這非常重要所以我們希望局長能夠\n\n30\n00:10:14,401 --> 00:10:19,564\n在你的政策方針裡面有提到這個情報交流的合作接軌國際社會那意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的一些合作跟交流資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度\n\n31\n00:10:39,899 --> 00:11:06,021\n因為現在因為整個中共在區域裡面的擴張的動作越來越多那也造成國際社會很關注到不只是台海情勢整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切那所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題來交換資訊跟情資特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及他相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢\n\n32\n00:11:07,282 --> 00:11:30,703\n除了大方面的戰略之外我們當然是碰到比較細節比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩這個部分這樣的問題其實我們也辦公室已經找到各個中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到那裡面還包括說海軍的租用的中華電信衛星三年前跟諾魯的這些資通的合作會議或者是海軍署的護九號艦艇等等\n\n33\n00:11:32,905 --> 00:11:50,550\n這部分都有相關的東西出去我的意思是說這些資訊如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握到底問題出在哪裡的話國安局有沒有辦法提出協調協助好大概兩個面向第一個部分是就中華電信的部分他們針對委員所提到的這個個案已經跟目的世界主管機關交通部\n\n34\n00:11:53,278 --> 00:12:14,042\n對交通部有做相關的通報另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報這是個案的部分那調查局也已經立案在偵辦這是第一個面向對第二個面向是假如說他的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位針對他們的資通訊的安全相關的環境來提升跟加強還有改善\n\n35\n00:12:14,822 --> 00:12:37,968\n謝謝局長我的意思是說除了技術上面知道說他的問題在哪裡在以人因的部分以人為因素的部分還有透過人跟人因之外就是機構跟機構的情報交流比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話也是需要說能夠利用這種平台把它傳遞給相關的局處就是說你們可能得到的情報的管道更多\n\n36\n00:12:38,308 --> 00:12:38,928\n好,謝謝,非常感謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n390\t13227\t麻煩請局長請蔡局長好 謝主席 陳委員早早 局長 那個我先針對齁\n15288\t29714\t國安局統合的角色做一個質詢那國安局我把它簡單的做一個統整那大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反借選、反恐攻那其中裡面在你們的這個政策方針裡面\n30874\t51215\t我看到有屢次出現預警這兩個字預警就是說在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來來警告國人或者是相關的機關那其實在最近其實不只是台灣在這個美國常常會有一些相關的重大的這個預警措施比方說美國有像這個\n52856\t72944\t美國公民發出警告說有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊比方說在一些重大的基礎建設那在發生恐怖攻擊或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前那美國也可能會提出警告我想知道說國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候你們的預警機制是什麼\n74178\t90343\t對,依照國安局的組織法跟國家情報工作法國安局本來就負責指導、統合、協調國內總共有11個情報機關跟4同情報機關那就情報作業的角度來講對於各種可能國家安全的危害不管是來自於內部或外部\n90703\t110071\t我們都會跟我們的協情單位也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關有透過各種的專案來利用專案的機制收集相關的情資那也會把相關的情資還有最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來做分享一定來事先應處不是在事件發生之後再應處而是能夠事先預警來應處\n111011\t125707\t謝謝局長我的意思是說在具體可能你們掌握的情資統整各個情報機構之後你們有足夠的相信它可能會在比如說48小時24小時發生你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警比方說國防部之前\n127349\t140147\t針對這種飛行器或者是這個超過卡門線的相關的這種飛行物經過的時候它會出現預警但我們講的不是這一種我們講的是說有可能立即危害公眾安全的這種狀況你們有這樣的機制嗎?\n143271\t164250\t發佈的標準呢?發佈的標準要看相關的一個樣態因為可能的安全威脅有不同的威脅來源不同的狀況都有那以我們的機制來講一定會在第一時間來掌握老實講在去年的二合一大選我們這樣的機制的運作還算非常的合作的非常的密切\n164949\t181077\t我之所以這樣說的原因我還是做一個結論就是說在國防部在這個選前馬上得通報那透過這樣子的各個不同的電子裝置通報那造成的效果有人說是有正有負有一些反效果有一些正面的效果就是至少說國防部有掌握\n181897\t205220\t但是我們還是要知道說如果有遇到重大 比方說之前其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的一個國家安全的事件就是有人要引爆炸彈在這個相關的這些高鐵那後來當然是被偵破所以說防止這件事情發生我意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前我們必須要有一個機制做全民的通報我想這是一個非常重要的因為\n206141\t220797\t情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警不然情報單純的收集情報然後把它放在檔案庫裡面沒有任何的意義它必須要跟公共安全會有直接的結合這也直接導引到我的下一個問題\n221578\t248208\t我想最近有許多國會議員我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的這個我看聽說我們是跟不同的這個機關來去請教IP位置都是來自境外那這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有在去搜尋那這個可能的這個可能性各種不同可能性我們也不能夠單純的說一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡我們不知道那我想知道說國安局有什麼樣的方式來去應處\n249928\t276007\t這案子因為已經是一個多年的案子了跟委員大概報告一下從2021年的9月到昨天為止網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件那刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理那針對最近所發生的這種網路的恐嚇案我們的相關的資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍的人士所發動的\n276787\t304108\t那大部分都是由單一的個人來發動那我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過那主要的恐嚇對象包括的有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的一個服務信箱那都有在收集相關的一個資訊那也會因為主要是來自於境外的入籍人士所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明說他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報來防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生\n304948\t324916\t這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好當然是有一定程度的威脅但是除了這個之外他利用這樣子的公眾訊息來去把操弄不安的訊息在我們的一般的這個大眾裡面這才是一個很大的問題因為只要是不管是利用誰的這個人頭賬戶他只要把這個訊息傳出去再透過媒體傳播的話\n325956\t327436\t對民眾來講是一個比較能夠確保他們自己會比較安全感\n355521\t363414\t情報的意義有很多種因為我想這個局長也是學者出身所以他您不是軍人出身所以你要知道說對於國防來講\n365316\t365356\t陳冠廷\n395556\t416593\t的這個何靜華等人那經過2020年是遭警察官起訴那這個案件我看是根據新聞上面來講的話都是調查局是主責那已經有正式的起訴但是在2月29號有宣判他是說因為證據不足獲判無罪這個案子國防國安局當初有沒有掌握情資有沒有分享情資\n417501\t433029\t對,相關的案件我們都有分享情資那也跟委員報告說明一下就怎麼樣讓這些中共對台灣的統戰滲透的案件它的立案率能夠比較高事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力那邀集的包括我們的國安單位還有\n434070\t436732\t這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向。\n457585\t475970\t所以簡而言之你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構要件都有把他們分享對不對這個跟委員報告一下最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關的指標目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件我們的法規的要件可以更完備\n477233\t500108\t我特別講到這個法律的部分是因為我們知道說有不同的包含調查局、國安局其實在各個不同的縣市都有住處都有住人員在此地在各地那這個部分就是說在收集情報的方面或者是說到時候要政治立案的話那情報的這個方針就很重要那還有情報的互相也非常重要我們當然知道說國安局他的這個根據你們組織法是指導協調支援\n503169\t523698\t針對資源這個部分我知道都會有各大情治單位都會有定期的這個平台來去交流但我還記得說過去我參加我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織我發現到外交部有自己的小房間各個局處有自己的小房間各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整所以在於統合指導協調這不是\n525979\t545152\t文字上面的意義那他必須要做真切上面的資訊的交換所以特別是在這個指導方針情報的收集還有怎麼樣立案這個我是希望說他不是只有在比較高層的文官到最基層的文官都要有非常完整的講習\n546593\t546793\t陳冠廷\n562819\t563880\t請國防部副部長蔡明彥報告\n591316\t612999\t這個局長我們知道這些相關的匯報都有所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分可能這就是考驗領導人的能力能不能夠至少要留下legacy把這樣的傳統留下來不要說說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去然後同時出團但是各自在負責各自不同的事情那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在這非常重要所以我們希望局長能夠\n614401\t619564\t在你的政策方針裡面有提到這個情報交流的合作接軌國際社會那意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的一些合作跟交流資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度\n639899\t666021\t因為現在因為整個中共在區域裡面的擴張的動作越來越多那也造成國際社會很關注到不只是台海情勢整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切那所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題來交換資訊跟情資特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及他相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢\n667282\t690703\t除了大方面的戰略之外我們當然是碰到比較細節比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩這個部分這樣的問題其實我們也辦公室已經找到各個中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到那裡面還包括說海軍的租用的中華電信衛星三年前跟諾魯的這些資通的合作會議或者是海軍署的護九號艦艇等等\n692905\t710550\t這部分都有相關的東西出去我的意思是說這些資訊如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握到底問題出在哪裡的話國安局有沒有辦法提出協調協助好大概兩個面向第一個部分是就中華電信的部分他們針對委員所提到的這個個案已經跟目的世界主管機關交通部\n713278\t734042\t對交通部有做相關的通報另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報這是個案的部分那調查局也已經立案在偵辦這是第一個面向對第二個面向是假如說他的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位針對他們的資通訊的安全相關的環境來提升跟加強還有改善\n734822\t757968\t謝謝局長我的意思是說除了技術上面知道說他的問題在哪裡在以人因的部分以人為因素的部分還有透過人跟人因之外就是機構跟機構的情報交流比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話也是需要說能夠利用這種平台把它傳遞給相關的局處就是說你們可能得到的情報的管道更多\n758308\t758928\t好,謝謝,非常感謝。\n","txt":"麻煩請局長請蔡局長好 謝主席 陳委員早早 局長 那個我先針對齁\n國安局統合的角色做一個質詢那國安局我把它簡單的做一個統整那大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反借選、反恐攻那其中裡面在你們的這個政策方針裡面\n我看到有屢次出現預警這兩個字預警就是說在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來來警告國人或者是相關的機關那其實在最近其實不只是台灣在這個美國常常會有一些相關的重大的這個預警措施比方說美國有像這個\n美國公民發出警告說有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊比方說在一些重大的基礎建設那在發生恐怖攻擊或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前那美國也可能會提出警告我想知道說國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候你們的預警機制是什麼\n對,依照國安局的組織法跟國家情報工作法國安局本來就負責指導、統合、協調國內總共有11個情報機關跟4同情報機關那就情報作業的角度來講對於各種可能國家安全的危害不管是來自於內部或外部\n我們都會跟我們的協情單位也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關有透過各種的專案來利用專案的機制收集相關的情資那也會把相關的情資還有最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來做分享一定來事先應處不是在事件發生之後再應處而是能夠事先預警來應處\n謝謝局長我的意思是說在具體可能你們掌握的情資統整各個情報機構之後你們有足夠的相信它可能會在比如說48小時24小時發生你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警比方說國防部之前\n針對這種飛行器或者是這個超過卡門線的相關的這種飛行物經過的時候它會出現預警但我們講的不是這一種我們講的是說有可能立即危害公眾安全的這種狀況你們有這樣的機制嗎?\n發佈的標準呢?發佈的標準要看相關的一個樣態因為可能的安全威脅有不同的威脅來源不同的狀況都有那以我們的機制來講一定會在第一時間來掌握老實講在去年的二合一大選我們這樣的機制的運作還算非常的合作的非常的密切\n我之所以這樣說的原因我還是做一個結論就是說在國防部在這個選前馬上得通報那透過這樣子的各個不同的電子裝置通報那造成的效果有人說是有正有負有一些反效果有一些正面的效果就是至少說國防部有掌握\n但是我們還是要知道說如果有遇到重大 比方說之前其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的一個國家安全的事件就是有人要引爆炸彈在這個相關的這些高鐵那後來當然是被偵破所以說防止這件事情發生我意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前我們必須要有一個機制做全民的通報我想這是一個非常重要的因為\n情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警不然情報單純的收集情報然後把它放在檔案庫裡面沒有任何的意義它必須要跟公共安全會有直接的結合這也直接導引到我的下一個問題\n我想最近有許多國會議員我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的這個我看聽說我們是跟不同的這個機關來去請教IP位置都是來自境外那這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有在去搜尋那這個可能的這個可能性各種不同可能性我們也不能夠單純的說一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡我們不知道那我想知道說國安局有什麼樣的方式來去應處\n這案子因為已經是一個多年的案子了跟委員大概報告一下從2021年的9月到昨天為止網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件那刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理那針對最近所發生的這種網路的恐嚇案我們的相關的資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍的人士所發動的\n那大部分都是由單一的個人來發動那我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過那主要的恐嚇對象包括的有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的一個服務信箱那都有在收集相關的一個資訊那也會因為主要是來自於境外的入籍人士所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明說他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報來防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生\n這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好當然是有一定程度的威脅但是除了這個之外他利用這樣子的公眾訊息來去把操弄不安的訊息在我們的一般的這個大眾裡面這才是一個很大的問題因為只要是不管是利用誰的這個人頭賬戶他只要把這個訊息傳出去再透過媒體傳播的話\n對民眾來講是一個比較能夠確保他們自己會比較安全感\n情報的意義有很多種因為我想這個局長也是學者出身所以他您不是軍人出身所以你要知道說對於國防來講\n陳冠廷\n的這個何靜華等人那經過2020年是遭警察官起訴那這個案件我看是根據新聞上面來講的話都是調查局是主責那已經有正式的起訴但是在2月29號有宣判他是說因為證據不足獲判無罪這個案子國防國安局當初有沒有掌握情資有沒有分享情資\n對,相關的案件我們都有分享情資那也跟委員報告說明一下就怎麼樣讓這些中共對台灣的統戰滲透的案件它的立案率能夠比較高事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力那邀集的包括我們的國安單位還有\n這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向。\n所以簡而言之你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構要件都有把他們分享對不對這個跟委員報告一下最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關的指標目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件我們的法規的要件可以更完備\n我特別講到這個法律的部分是因為我們知道說有不同的包含調查局、國安局其實在各個不同的縣市都有住處都有住人員在此地在各地那這個部分就是說在收集情報的方面或者是說到時候要政治立案的話那情報的這個方針就很重要那還有情報的互相也非常重要我們當然知道說國安局他的這個根據你們組織法是指導協調支援\n針對資源這個部分我知道都會有各大情治單位都會有定期的這個平台來去交流但我還記得說過去我參加我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織我發現到外交部有自己的小房間各個局處有自己的小房間各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整所以在於統合指導協調這不是\n文字上面的意義那他必須要做真切上面的資訊的交換所以特別是在這個指導方針情報的收集還有怎麼樣立案這個我是希望說他不是只有在比較高層的文官到最基層的文官都要有非常完整的講習\n陳冠廷\n請國防部副部長蔡明彥報告\n這個局長我們知道這些相關的匯報都有所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分可能這就是考驗領導人的能力能不能夠至少要留下legacy把這樣的傳統留下來不要說說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去然後同時出團但是各自在負責各自不同的事情那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在這非常重要所以我們希望局長能夠\n在你的政策方針裡面有提到這個情報交流的合作接軌國際社會那意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的一些合作跟交流資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度\n因為現在因為整個中共在區域裡面的擴張的動作越來越多那也造成國際社會很關注到不只是台海情勢整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切那所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題來交換資訊跟情資特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及他相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢\n除了大方面的戰略之外我們當然是碰到比較細節比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩這個部分這樣的問題其實我們也辦公室已經找到各個中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到那裡面還包括說海軍的租用的中華電信衛星三年前跟諾魯的這些資通的合作會議或者是海軍署的護九號艦艇等等\n這部分都有相關的東西出去我的意思是說這些資訊如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握到底問題出在哪裡的話國安局有沒有辦法提出協調協助好大概兩個面向第一個部分是就中華電信的部分他們針對委員所提到的這個個案已經跟目的世界主管機關交通部\n對交通部有做相關的通報另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報這是個案的部分那調查局也已經立案在偵辦這是第一個面向對第二個面向是假如說他的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位針對他們的資通訊的安全相關的環境來提升跟加強還有改善\n謝謝局長我的意思是說除了技術上面知道說他的問題在哪裡在以人因的部分以人為因素的部分還有透過人跟人因之外就是機構跟機構的情報交流比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話也是需要說能夠利用這種平台把它傳遞給相關的局處就是說你們可能得到的情報的管道更多\n好,謝謝,非常感謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.390 --> 00:13.227\n麻煩請局長請蔡局長好謝主席陳委員早早局長那個我先針對齁\n\n00:15.288 --> 00:29.714\n國安局統合的角色做一個質詢那國安局我把它簡單的做一個統整那大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反借選、反恐攻那其中裡面在你們的這個政策方針裡面\n\n00:30.874 --> 00:51.215\n我看到有屢次出現預警這兩個字預警就是說在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來來警告國人或者是相關的機關那其實在最近其實不只是台灣在這個美國常常會有一些相關的重大的這個預警措施比方說美國有像這個\n\n00:52.856 --> 01:12.944\n美國公民發出警告說有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊比方說在一些重大的基礎建設那在發生恐怖攻擊或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前那美國也可能會提出警告我想知道說國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候你們的預警機制是什麼\n\n01:14.178 --> 01:30.343\n對,依照國安局的組織法跟國家情報工作法國安局本來就負責指導、統合、協調國內總共有11個情報機關跟4同情報機關那就情報作業的角度來講對於各種可能國家安全的危害不管是來自於內部或外部\n\n01:30.703 --> 01:50.071\n我們都會跟我們的協情單位也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關有透過各種的專案來利用專案的機制收集相關的情資那也會把相關的情資還有最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來做分享一定來事先應處不是在事件發生之後再應處而是能夠事先預警來應處\n\n01:51.011 --> 02:05.707\n謝謝局長我的意思是說在具體可能你們掌握的情資統整各個情報機構之後你們有足夠的相信它可能會在比如說48小時24小時發生你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警比方說國防部之前\n\n02:07.349 --> 02:20.147\n針對這種飛行器或者是這個超過卡門線的相關的這種飛行物經過的時候它會出現預警但我們講的不是這一種我們講的是說有可能立即危害公眾安全的這種狀況你們有這樣的機制嗎?\n\n02:23.271 --> 02:44.250\n發佈的標準呢?發佈的標準要看相關的一個樣態因為可能的安全威脅有不同的威脅來源不同的狀況都有那以我們的機制來講一定會在第一時間來掌握老實講在去年的二合一大選我們這樣的機制的運作還算非常的合作的非常的密切\n\n02:44.949 --> 03:01.077\n我之所以這樣說的原因我還是做一個結論就是說在國防部在這個選前馬上得通報那透過這樣子的各個不同的電子裝置通報那造成的效果有人說是有正有負有一些反效果有一些正面的效果就是至少說國防部有掌握\n\n03:01.897 --> 03:25.220\n但是我們還是要知道說如果有遇到重大比方說之前其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的一個國家安全的事件就是有人要引爆炸彈在這個相關的這些高鐵那後來當然是被偵破所以說防止這件事情發生我意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前我們必須要有一個機制做全民的通報我想這是一個非常重要的因為\n\n03:26.141 --> 03:40.797\n情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警不然情報單純的收集情報然後把它放在檔案庫裡面沒有任何的意義它必須要跟公共安全會有直接的結合這也直接導引到我的下一個問題\n\n03:41.578 --> 04:08.208\n我想最近有許多國會議員我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的這個我看聽說我們是跟不同的這個機關來去請教IP位置都是來自境外那這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有在去搜尋那這個可能的這個可能性各種不同可能性我們也不能夠單純的說一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡我們不知道那我想知道說國安局有什麼樣的方式來去應處\n\n04:09.928 --> 04:36.007\n這案子因為已經是一個多年的案子了跟委員大概報告一下從2021年的9月到昨天為止網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件那刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理那針對最近所發生的這種網路的恐嚇案我們的相關的資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍的人士所發動的\n\n04:36.787 --> 05:04.108\n那大部分都是由單一的個人來發動那我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過那主要的恐嚇對象包括的有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的一個服務信箱那都有在收集相關的一個資訊那也會因為主要是來自於境外的入籍人士所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明說他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報來防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生\n\n05:04.948 --> 05:24.916\n這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好當然是有一定程度的威脅但是除了這個之外他利用這樣子的公眾訊息來去把操弄不安的訊息在我們的一般的這個大眾裡面這才是一個很大的問題因為只要是不管是利用誰的這個人頭賬戶他只要把這個訊息傳出去再透過媒體傳播的話\n\n05:25.956 --> 05:27.436\n對民眾來講是一個比較能夠確保他們自己會比較安全感\n\n05:55.521 --> 06:03.414\n情報的意義有很多種因為我想這個局長也是學者出身所以他您不是軍人出身所以你要知道說對於國防來講\n\n06:05.316 --> 06:05.356\n陳冠廷\n\n06:35.556 --> 06:56.593\n的這個何靜華等人那經過2020年是遭警察官起訴那這個案件我看是根據新聞上面來講的話都是調查局是主責那已經有正式的起訴但是在2月29號有宣判他是說因為證據不足獲判無罪這個案子國防國安局當初有沒有掌握情資有沒有分享情資\n\n06:57.501 --> 07:13.029\n對,相關的案件我們都有分享情資那也跟委員報告說明一下就怎麼樣讓這些中共對台灣的統戰滲透的案件它的立案率能夠比較高事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力那邀集的包括我們的國安單位還有\n\n07:14.070 --> 07:16.732\n這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向。\n\n07:37.585 --> 07:55.970\n所以簡而言之你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構要件都有把他們分享對不對這個跟委員報告一下最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關的指標目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件我們的法規的要件可以更完備\n\n07:57.233 --> 08:20.108\n我特別講到這個法律的部分是因為我們知道說有不同的包含調查局、國安局其實在各個不同的縣市都有住處都有住人員在此地在各地那這個部分就是說在收集情報的方面或者是說到時候要政治立案的話那情報的這個方針就很重要那還有情報的互相也非常重要我們當然知道說國安局他的這個根據你們組織法是指導協調支援\n\n08:23.169 --> 08:43.698\n針對資源這個部分我知道都會有各大情治單位都會有定期的這個平台來去交流但我還記得說過去我參加我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織我發現到外交部有自己的小房間各個局處有自己的小房間各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整所以在於統合指導協調這不是\n\n08:45.979 --> 09:05.152\n文字上面的意義那他必須要做真切上面的資訊的交換所以特別是在這個指導方針情報的收集還有怎麼樣立案這個我是希望說他不是只有在比較高層的文官到最基層的文官都要有非常完整的講習\n\n09:06.593 --> 09:06.793\n陳冠廷\n\n09:22.819 --> 09:23.880\n請國防部副部長蔡明彥報告\n\n09:51.316 --> 10:12.999\n這個局長我們知道這些相關的匯報都有所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分可能這就是考驗領導人的能力能不能夠至少要留下legacy把這樣的傳統留下來不要說說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去然後同時出團但是各自在負責各自不同的事情那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在這非常重要所以我們希望局長能夠\n\n10:14.401 --> 10:19.564\n在你的政策方針裡面有提到這個情報交流的合作接軌國際社會那意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的一些合作跟交流資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度\n\n10:39.899 --> 11:06.021\n因為現在因為整個中共在區域裡面的擴張的動作越來越多那也造成國際社會很關注到不只是台海情勢整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切那所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題來交換資訊跟情資特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及他相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢\n\n11:07.282 --> 11:30.703\n除了大方面的戰略之外我們當然是碰到比較細節比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩這個部分這樣的問題其實我們也辦公室已經找到各個中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到那裡面還包括說海軍的租用的中華電信衛星三年前跟諾魯的這些資通的合作會議或者是海軍署的護九號艦艇等等\n\n11:32.905 --> 11:50.550\n這部分都有相關的東西出去我的意思是說這些資訊如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握到底問題出在哪裡的話國安局有沒有辦法提出協調協助好大概兩個面向第一個部分是就中華電信的部分他們針對委員所提到的這個個案已經跟目的世界主管機關交通部\n\n11:53.278 --> 12:14.042\n對交通部有做相關的通報另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報這是個案的部分那調查局也已經立案在偵辦這是第一個面向對第二個面向是假如說他的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位針對他們的資通訊的安全相關的環境來提升跟加強還有改善\n\n12:14.822 --> 12:37.968\n謝謝局長我的意思是說除了技術上面知道說他的問題在哪裡在以人因的部分以人為因素的部分還有透過人跟人因之外就是機構跟機構的情報交流比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話也是需要說能夠利用這種平台把它傳遞給相關的局處就是說你們可能得到的情報的管道更多\n\n12:38.308 --> 12:38.928\n好,謝謝,非常感謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.39,"end":13.227,"text":"麻煩請局長請蔡局長好 謝主席 陳委員早早 局長 那個我先針對齁"},{"start":15.288,"end":29.714,"text":"國安局統合的角色做一個質詢那國安局我把它簡單的做一個統整那大概就是反斬首、反滲透、反間諜、反借選、反恐攻那其中裡面在你們的這個政策方針裡面"},{"start":30.874,"end":51.215,"text":"我看到有屢次出現預警這兩個字預警就是說在可能發生的國家安全事件之前先提出來來警告國人或者是相關的機關那其實在最近其實不只是台灣在這個美國常常會有一些相關的重大的這個預警措施比方說美國有像這個"},{"start":52.856,"end":72.944,"text":"美國公民發出警告說有可能會有極端分子發動攻擊比方說在一些重大的基礎建設那在發生恐怖攻擊或者是有可能的電子襲擊之前那美國也可能會提出警告我想知道說國安局針對重大危及國家安全事件的時候你們的預警機制是什麼"},{"start":74.178,"end":90.343,"text":"對,依照國安局的組織法跟國家情報工作法國安局本來就負責指導、統合、協調國內總共有11個情報機關跟4同情報機關那就情報作業的角度來講對於各種可能國家安全的危害不管是來自於內部或外部"},{"start":90.703,"end":110.071,"text":"我們都會跟我們的協情單位也就是11個情報跟協同情報機關有透過各種的專案來利用專案的機制收集相關的情資那也會把相關的情資還有最新掌握的狀況跟相關部會來做分享一定來事先應處不是在事件發生之後再應處而是能夠事先預警來應處"},{"start":111.011,"end":125.707,"text":"謝謝局長我的意思是說在具體可能你們掌握的情資統整各個情報機構之後你們有足夠的相信它可能會在比如說48小時24小時發生你們有沒有辦法在全國的面前做出預警比方說國防部之前"},{"start":127.349,"end":140.147,"text":"針對這種飛行器或者是這個超過卡門線的相關的這種飛行物經過的時候它會出現預警但我們講的不是這一種我們講的是說有可能立即危害公眾安全的這種狀況你們有這樣的機制嗎?"},{"start":143.271,"end":164.25,"text":"發佈的標準呢?發佈的標準要看相關的一個樣態因為可能的安全威脅有不同的威脅來源不同的狀況都有那以我們的機制來講一定會在第一時間來掌握老實講在去年的二合一大選我們這樣的機制的運作還算非常的合作的非常的密切"},{"start":164.949,"end":181.077,"text":"我之所以這樣說的原因我還是做一個結論就是說在國防部在這個選前馬上得通報那透過這樣子的各個不同的電子裝置通報那造成的效果有人說是有正有負有一些反效果有一些正面的效果就是至少說國防部有掌握"},{"start":181.897,"end":205.22,"text":"但是我們還是要知道說如果有遇到重大 比方說之前其實幾年前高鐵有一個重大的一個國家安全的事件就是有人要引爆炸彈在這個相關的這些高鐵那後來當然是被偵破所以說防止這件事情發生我意思是說在遇到重大的緊急災變之前我們必須要有一個機制做全民的通報我想這是一個非常重要的因為"},{"start":206.141,"end":220.797,"text":"情報機關重要的是掌握情資並且做預警不然情報單純的收集情報然後把它放在檔案庫裡面沒有任何的意義它必須要跟公共安全會有直接的結合這也直接導引到我的下一個問題"},{"start":221.578,"end":248.208,"text":"我想最近有許多國會議員我們的立法委員都有接到來自不同的這個我看聽說我們是跟不同的這個機關來去請教IP位置都是來自境外那這樣子的問題當然警政單位都有在去搜尋那這個可能的這個可能性各種不同可能性我們也不能夠單純的說一定來自中國或者是來自哪裡我們不知道那我想知道說國安局有什麼樣的方式來去應處"},{"start":249.928,"end":276.007,"text":"這案子因為已經是一個多年的案子了跟委員大概報告一下從2021年的9月到昨天為止網路匿名的恐嚇案件有526件那刑事局也有成立一個專案小組來處理那針對最近所發生的這種網路的恐嚇案我們的相關的資訊顯示它是來自於境外的大陸籍的人士所發動的"},{"start":276.787,"end":304.108,"text":"那大部分都是由單一的個人來發動那我剛剛也跟其他委員有說明過那主要的恐嚇對象包括的有桃園國際機場、總統府、警政署還有各個委員的一個服務信箱那都有在收集相關的一個資訊那也會因為主要是來自於境外的入籍人士所以這也是為什麼內政部有對外說明說他們也是希望透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪的機制來進行通報來防止這樣的事情一再一再的發生"},{"start":304.948,"end":324.916,"text":"這樣子的威脅性其實對於人身安全也好當然是有一定程度的威脅但是除了這個之外他利用這樣子的公眾訊息來去把操弄不安的訊息在我們的一般的這個大眾裡面這才是一個很大的問題因為只要是不管是利用誰的這個人頭賬戶他只要把這個訊息傳出去再透過媒體傳播的話"},{"start":325.956,"end":327.436,"text":"對民眾來講是一個比較能夠確保他們自己會比較安全感"},{"start":355.521,"end":363.414,"text":"情報的意義有很多種因為我想這個局長也是學者出身所以他您不是軍人出身所以你要知道說對於國防來講"},{"start":365.316,"end":365.356,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":395.556,"end":416.593,"text":"的這個何靜華等人那經過2020年是遭警察官起訴那這個案件我看是根據新聞上面來講的話都是調查局是主責那已經有正式的起訴但是在2月29號有宣判他是說因為證據不足獲判無罪這個案子國防國安局當初有沒有掌握情資有沒有分享情資"},{"start":417.501,"end":433.029,"text":"對,相關的案件我們都有分享情資那也跟委員報告說明一下就怎麼樣讓這些中共對台灣的統戰滲透的案件它的立案率能夠比較高事實上最高檢這邊也做了非常多的努力那邀集的包括我們的國安單位還有"},{"start":434.07,"end":436.732,"text":"這部分大概是我們情報機關在前置作業階段可以努力的重點方向。"},{"start":457.585,"end":475.97,"text":"所以簡而言之你把法律上面所不足的部分有跟其他的這些機構要件都有把他們分享對不對這個跟委員報告一下最高檢他們甚至還有一個相關的案例說明以及立案要件的相關的指標目的就是希望在偵辦這些案件我們的法規的要件可以更完備"},{"start":477.233,"end":500.108,"text":"我特別講到這個法律的部分是因為我們知道說有不同的包含調查局、國安局其實在各個不同的縣市都有住處都有住人員在此地在各地那這個部分就是說在收集情報的方面或者是說到時候要政治立案的話那情報的這個方針就很重要那還有情報的互相也非常重要我們當然知道說國安局他的這個根據你們組織法是指導協調支援"},{"start":503.169,"end":523.698,"text":"針對資源這個部分我知道都會有各大情治單位都會有定期的這個平台來去交流但我還記得說過去我參加我在國安會的時候參加一些國際組織我發現到外交部有自己的小房間各個局處有自己的小房間各個局處根本沒有在做資訊的統整所以在於統合指導協調這不是"},{"start":525.979,"end":545.152,"text":"文字上面的意義那他必須要做真切上面的資訊的交換所以特別是在這個指導方針情報的收集還有怎麼樣立案這個我是希望說他不是只有在比較高層的文官到最基層的文官都要有非常完整的講習"},{"start":546.593,"end":546.793,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":562.819,"end":563.88,"text":"請國防部副部長蔡明彥報告"},{"start":591.316,"end":612.999,"text":"這個局長我們知道這些相關的匯報都有所以我剛剛講說實質上面的部分可能這就是考驗領導人的能力能不能夠至少要留下legacy把這樣的傳統留下來不要說說我們現在是依照文字這樣子去然後同時出團但是各自在負責各自不同的事情那這樣就沒有情報統合的意義在這非常重要所以我們希望局長能夠"},{"start":614.401,"end":619.564,"text":"在你的政策方針裡面有提到這個情報交流的合作接軌國際社會那意思就是說我們跟國外的一些情報機構是不是有定期的一些合作跟交流資訊的交換到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":639.899,"end":666.021,"text":"因為現在因為整個中共在區域裡面的擴張的動作越來越多那也造成國際社會很關注到不只是台海情勢整體的印太安全情勢都非常的關切那所以在情報交流部分也開啟我們很多好的機會來跟這些國外的夥伴針對大家共同關切的議題來交換資訊跟情資特別要來研判的重點是在於中共的戰略意圖以及他相關的動作有沒有新的發展趨勢"},{"start":667.282,"end":690.703,"text":"除了大方面的戰略之外我們當然是碰到比較細節比方說最近中華電信的資料外洩這個部分這樣的問題其實我們也辦公室已經找到各個中華電信還有各個其他部門來談到那裡面還包括說海軍的租用的中華電信衛星三年前跟諾魯的這些資通的合作會議或者是海軍署的護九號艦艇等等"},{"start":692.905,"end":710.55,"text":"這部分都有相關的東西出去我的意思是說這些資訊如果中華電信本身沒有辦法掌握到底問題出在哪裡的話國安局有沒有辦法提出協調協助好大概兩個面向第一個部分是就中華電信的部分他們針對委員所提到的這個個案已經跟目的世界主管機關交通部"},{"start":713.278,"end":734.042,"text":"對交通部有做相關的通報另外也跟數位部有做相關的通報這是個案的部分那調查局也已經立案在偵辦這是第一個面向對第二個面向是假如說他的洩漏資訊有涉及到國安單位的話那國安局這邊也會來協同我們的國安單位針對他們的資通訊的安全相關的環境來提升跟加強還有改善"},{"start":734.822,"end":757.968,"text":"謝謝局長我的意思是說除了技術上面知道說他的問題在哪裡在以人因的部分以人為因素的部分還有透過人跟人因之外就是機構跟機構的情報交流比方說國安局如果能夠得到其他情資的話也是需要說能夠利用這種平台把它傳遞給相關的局處就是說你們可能得到的情報的管道更多"},{"start":758.308,"end":758.928,"text":"好,謝謝,非常感謝。"}]}}}}