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11:02:49","影片長度":"00:07:55","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":475,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:02:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:54:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時55分）主席謝謝，麻煩請李主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好，我想直接就教主委，過去大家都很關心民間通稱的轉蛋法，其實這個事件最主要還是一樣強調公平透明的機制跟原則，我們現在看到的是臺灣遊戲代理商的爭議，調查確實有違反公平交易法第二十一條跟第四項準用第一項規定處200萬元的罰鍰，但是今年我們看到這個遊戲代理的韓國母公司，被韓國的公平交易委員會宣布處以116億韓元，相當於處2.75億新臺幣，這也是遊戲界電子交易商品法違法處罰的歷史新高，這是在韓國的一個紀錄。人家可以處罰到2.75億，我們最高只有200萬，會不會覺得我們的法令武器太少、太弱，而且不痛不癢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們法定的最高罰鍰有到2,500萬，至於罰鍰的多少會看個案的案情，還有被檢舉事業對這件事情後來處理的態度等等，會通盤考量。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們臺灣遊戲代理商的爭議到最後只有處200萬的罰鍰，你說最高可以到2,000萬，200萬是最低下限，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：從5萬到2,500萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：5萬到2,000萬，所以其實裁量空間非常地大，也許對你們來講覺得，哇！最低5萬，處罰200萬好像很大，但不是啊！對遊戲廠商來講，它的規模市場可能是幾億、幾十億的規模市場。你看現在的電視廣告，會打電視廣告的有哪一些業者，你有沒有看？要嘛就是汽車、要嘛就遊戲，對不對？遊戲會打電視廣告，就是代表它的市場真的很大，本席並不是講遊戲廠商不能做大，但是它在做大的前提之下要符合公平原則，所以這才是為何民間一直在催生所謂的轉蛋法嘛！現在我們只有200萬的罰鍰，你說最高可以2,000萬……"],["李主任委員鎂：2,500萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：2,500萬，可是韓國可以罰到2.75億，等於是我們最高的十倍，換言之，我們現在與時俱進的情況下，尤其是看到他們市場規模那麼大，我們是不是應該要考慮有沒有要調整法律裁罰的範圍？或者說未來這樣的類型違反時，我們要以更高標準來要求？"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員的垂詢，基本上罰鍰的額度要個案認定，但是我也瞭解，我們要針對玩家多少、被檢舉事業的營業規模等等，將來我們在罰鍰的考量上應該會朝向符合大家的期待。"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以先簡單講一下，關於這次罰200萬的這個遊戲廠商，你們那時候的考量是什麼？它的市場機制、它的過去的營業額，還是它的用戶人數？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個案子我們都有通盤考量，還有一個就是因為這個廠商在發現這件事情之後，很快的跟玩家做一些協商處理，用很……"],["洪委員孟楷：有嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有，有跟玩家……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼我們看到很多大家的討論，還是覺得它是隱瞞，已經逼到大家群情激憤，然後網紅跳出來……"],["李主任委員鎂：他們有跟玩家講……"],["洪委員孟楷：一開始人家質疑的時候，這個廠商好像還是顧左右而言他，說是韓國母公司有規定……"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們有具體去瞭解……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在不是檢討單一廠商，本席現在講的其實是一個通盤性的問題，因為我們要良幣驅逐劣幣嘛！希望建立一個好的公平機制，讓臺灣的遊戲市場更健全，也讓我們的玩家更有保障，公平會當然在這個角色上的扮演就非常重要……"],["李主任委員鎂：我也贊同委員的意見，將來在罰鍰的考量上會做通盤考量。"],["洪委員孟楷：第一，我覺得是不是可以考量這個公司的營業額，因為它這樣的廣告、這樣的機率，讓大家覺得機率高就投入了，可能它的營業額確實也提升，在確實提升的情況下，不能用不公平的機率去誘騙玩家，所以它的營業額應該要第一個考量；第二，要考量用戶人數到底影響多廣，以及更重要的是，它今天宣稱這樣的機率有沒有變成是它強打廣告的一部分？有人講什麼掉寶率百分百，首局開抽一定抽到五星級武將還是什麼，有啊！都有這種廣告嘛！本席現在講的是這些一定都要考量進去，你認同嗎？","再來，主委，請教之前有講到行政院消保處跟數位部合作要推動強制公開轉蛋中獎機率，也要有驗證機制，針對驗證機制，消基會還要發起第三方轉蛋機率驗證網，等於好像是有一個第三方的公正平台，告訴大家這個遊戲的機率到底是不是公平的，未來公平交易委員會這邊能夠扮演什麼樣的角色？是不是能夠一起跨部會整合來推動這樣一個第三方平台？還是你認為這可能有窒礙難行之處？"],["李主任委員鎂：這部分我們跨機關都有一起討論，只要相關的法令規定業者要公布機率、要揭露機率，這個機率跟實際不實就是不實廣告，公平會會依公平法處置。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們有辦法查證嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這是……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，現在就是他可能推給母公司，它不是臺灣的研發公司，可能是從韓國代理進口的母公司，母公司可能有商業機密考量，過去就是這樣講。我們能不能去驗證確認，譬如說公布有10%的中獎機率，它就確實是10%？"],["李主任委員鎂：機率是否確不確實，確實是不好去查證，但是我們想跨部會之間，還有跟業者之間……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個可以由哪一個單位來做？是公平會、數發部，還是消基會？還是哪一個單位可以確實告訴我們？其實很簡單，就像食品衛生，牛奶裡面有多少成分的乳蛋白、多少成分的脂肪，它可能也會有衛福部做一個確認。一樣的道理，今天業者宣稱說這個遊戲有多少機率，是哪一個單位可以去確認他講的是確實的？"],["李主任委員鎂：那個細節我們請處長跟委員說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：簡單30秒，好不好？因為召委已經站起來了。"],["沈處長麗玉：跟委員報告，有關於線上遊戲機率的驗證問題，在之前是沒有一個客觀的驗證單位沒有錯，但是數位部其實有委請台科大做一些試辦，已經促成了，台科大現在是有一個可以驗證的單位。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候？在哪裡？官網嗎？還是……"],["主席：詳細資料是不是請公平會再交給洪孟楷委員好不好？因為發言時間已經到了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。給本席一個資料，但更重要的是拜託主委，該公平會這邊召集數發部、召集消基會開會討論的，因為轉蛋法已經討論很多遍，而且最重要的是透明公開的資訊讓業者能夠符合標準，以及讓玩家能夠放心，市場才會大，可以嗎？"],["主席：洪委員，主席已經裁示，我們就請他交資料給您，好不好？謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝主委。"],["主席：接下來我們請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","　　請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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\"的\", \"start\": 421.021, \"end\": 421.041, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 422.441, \"end\": 422.801, \"text\": \"委員會主任委員會長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 422.441, \"end\": 422.661, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 422.661, \"end\": 422.681, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 422.681, \"end\": 422.781, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 422.781, \"end\": 422.801, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 442.759, \"end\": 445.481, \"text\": \"他們是有一個可以驗證的這樣一個單位那什麼時候?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 442.759, \"end\": 442.979, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 442.979, \"end\": 443.079, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 443.079, \"end\": 443.259, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 443.259, \"end\": 443.56, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 443.56, 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,905 --> 00:00:29,228\n主席謝謝麻煩請李主委來請主委委員長主委好主委我想直接就教在過去大家都很關心的民間通稱所謂的轉蛋法在這個事件上面其實最主要還是一樣強調公平跟透明的機制跟原則\n\n2\n00:00:30,319 --> 00:00:45,474\n那我們現在看到是說台灣的遊戲代理商的爭議啊調查確實有違反公平交易法第21條跟第4項的準用第一項規定儲200萬元的罰款但是今年啊我們看到\n\n3\n00:00:47,755 --> 00:01:14,702\n這個遊戲代理的韓國母公司被韓國的公平交易委員會宣布除以116億韓元除兩2.75億新台幣的新高這也是遊戲界電子交易商品法違法的歷史新高這是在韓國的一個記錄人家可以處罰到2.75億我們最高只有200萬會不會覺得我們的法令武器太少太弱而且不痛不癢\n\n4\n00:01:15,694 --> 00:01:40,163\n我們的法定的最高罰款有到2500萬那至於罰款的多少我們會看個案的案情還有這個被檢舉事業他對這件事情後來處理的態度等等那我們台灣遊戲代理商的爭議到最後只有儲200萬的罰款你說最高可以到2000、200是最低下限是不是?\n\n5\n00:01:41,439 --> 00:02:04,799\n從五萬到兩千五百五萬到兩千所以說他其實他的裁量空間非常的大那也許對你們來講是覺得說哇五萬最低五萬但我處罰兩百萬好像很大但不是啊對遊戲廠商來講他可能他的一個規模市場他可能是幾億幾十億的規模市場你看現在電視廣告會打電視廣告的有哪一些業者你有沒有看\n\n6\n00:02:05,834 --> 00:02:30,270\n要嘛就是汽車要嘛就遊戲對不對就代表是說會打電視廣告會打遊戲會打電視廣告代表說他的市場真的很大那本期並不是講是說遊戲廠商不能做大但是他在做大的前提之下他要符合公平原則所以說這才是民間一直在吹聲說所謂的轉蛋法那現在我們講是說我們只有200萬的罰環你說最高可以2000萬\n\n7\n00:02:32,810 --> 00:03:00,137\n兩千五百萬可是韓國可以罰到2.75億等於又再是我們最高的十倍所以換言之我們現在與時俱進的情況下尤其是看到他們市場規模那麼大那我們是不是應該要考慮有沒有要做調整法律的裁罰的範圍或者是說未來這樣的一個類型的違反的時候我們要以更高標準來要求我想謝謝委員的推詢基本上\n\n8\n00:03:01,477 --> 00:03:04,559\n我們可不可以先簡單講一下就是說這一次這個罰200萬這個遊戲廠商的部分我們那時候考量\n\n9\n00:03:22,549 --> 00:03:22,890\n市場機制、過去營業額、用戶人數\n\n10\n00:03:40,773 --> 00:04:01,512\n有嗎?怎麼我們看到很多大家討論上來講還是覺得說他是隱瞞這個是逼到說大家已經群起激憤然後網紅票出來那一開始的時候人家質疑的時候這個廠商好像還是顧左右而言他講說是韓國母公司有規定\n\n11\n00:04:04,539 --> 00:04:21,625\n本席現在不是檢討單一廠商本席現在講的其實是一個通盤性的問題因為我們要良幣驅逐劣幣嘛我們希望是建立一個好的一個公平機制讓台灣的遊戲市場更健全也讓我們的玩家更有保障那公平會當然在這個角色上就扮演非常重要\n\n12\n00:04:22,185 --> 00:04:46,010\n我會看贊同委員的意見就是將來在這個法環的考量上會同盤做一個考量是不是可以考量我覺得第一這個公司他到底他的營業額的一個因為他講這樣的廣告這樣的機率讓大家覺得是說機率高就投入了那可能他的營業額確實也提升那確實提升的情況下你不能用不公平的機率來去誘騙玩家所以第一他的營業額應該不要考量\n\n13\n00:04:47,090 --> 00:05:11,123\n第二用戶人數到底影響到多廣要被考量以及更重要的是他今天宣稱這樣子的一個機率有沒有變成是他強打廣告的一個部分有人講什麼調保率百分百首局開抽一定抽到什麼五星級五將還是什麼有啊都有這種廣告嘛那本席現在講是說這一切一定都要考量進去你認同嗎\n\n14\n00:05:13,015 --> 00:05:41,445\n那再來主委請教之前有講到是說行政院消保處跟數位部合作要推動強制公開轉彈中獎機率那也要有這個什麼驗證機制啊那還要有這個驗證機制的發起消機會要發起第三方轉彈機率驗證網等於是好像有一個第三方的公正平台告訴大家是說這個遊戲他到底他的這個機率是不是公平的\n\n15\n00:05:42,264 --> 00:06:06,931\n那未來我們這個公平交易委員會這邊能夠扮演什麼樣的角色是不是能夠一起跨部會的整合來推動這樣的一個第三方別的還是你認為說這可能有自愛難行之處這部分我們有跨機關都有一起討論只要相關的法令規定業者要公佈機率要揭露機率那你這個機率跟實際不實這就是不實廣告這公平會會依公平法來講那我們有辦法查證嗎\n\n16\n00:06:07,811 --> 00:06:32,293\n我現在就是說他可能他就推給說這是母公司他不是臺灣的研發公司他可能是從韓國代理進口的母公司那母公司跟有商業機密考量過去他就是這樣講就是說我們能不能就是去驗證確認他確實譬如說公佈10%的中獎機率他就確實10%在基地是否確不確實是確實是不好去查證但是我們想跨部會\n\n17\n00:06:35,775 --> 00:07:01,041\n這一個是可以哪一個單位來做是公平會、速發部還是消基會還是哪一個單位可以確實告訴我們是說讓玩家其實很簡單就像食品衛生那個牛奶它裡面有多少成分的這個乳蛋白多少成分的脂肪它可能也會有衛福部來去做一個確認嘛那一樣的道理今天業者宣稱說我這個遊戲多少的機率那是哪一個單位可以去確認是說他講的是確實的\n\n18\n00:07:02,441 --> 00:07:02,801\n委員會主任委員會長\n\n19\n00:07:22,759 --> 00:07:25,481\n他們是有一個可以驗證的這樣一個單位那什麼時候?\n\n20\n00:07:25,481 --> 00:07:26,041\n在哪裡?\n\n21\n00:07:26,041 --> 00:07:50,877\n官網嗎?那個詳細的資料是不是請公平會再交給黃孟楷委員給本席一個資料但更重要的是拜託主委該召集公平會這邊召集速發部召集消極會來做開會討論因為轉蛋法已經討論很多遍了而且最重要的是透明公開的資訊讓業者能夠符合標準以及讓玩家能夠放心市場才會大我們就請他交資料給您好不好\n\n22\n00:07:52,221 --> 00:07:52,442\n謝謝主委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5905\t29228\t主席謝謝麻煩請李主委來請主委委員長主委好主委我想直接就教在過去大家都很關心的民間通稱所謂的轉蛋法在這個事件上面其實最主要還是一樣強調公平跟透明的機制跟原則\n30319\t45474\t那我們現在看到是說台灣的遊戲代理商的爭議啊調查確實有違反公平交易法第21條跟第4項的準用第一項規定儲200萬元的罰款但是今年啊我們看到\n47755\t74702\t這個遊戲代理的韓國母公司被韓國的公平交易委員會宣布除以116億韓元除兩2.75億新台幣的新高這也是遊戲界電子交易商品法違法的歷史新高這是在韓國的一個記錄人家可以處罰到2.75億我們最高只有200萬會不會覺得我們的法令武器太少太弱而且不痛不癢\n75694\t100163\t我們的法定的最高罰款有到2500萬那至於罰款的多少我們會看個案的案情還有這個被檢舉事業他對這件事情後來處理的態度等等那我們台灣遊戲代理商的爭議到最後只有儲200萬的罰款你說最高可以到2000、200是最低下限是不是?\n101439\t124799\t從五萬到兩千五百五萬到兩千所以說他其實他的裁量空間非常的大那也許對你們來講是覺得說哇五萬最低五萬但我處罰兩百萬好像很大但不是啊對遊戲廠商來講他可能他的一個規模市場他可能是幾億幾十億的規模市場你看現在電視廣告會打電視廣告的有哪一些業者你有沒有看\n125834\t150270\t要嘛就是汽車要嘛就遊戲對不對就代表是說會打電視廣告會打遊戲會打電視廣告代表說他的市場真的很大那本期並不是講是說遊戲廠商不能做大但是他在做大的前提之下他要符合公平原則所以說這才是民間一直在吹聲說所謂的轉蛋法那現在我們講是說我們只有200萬的罰環你說最高可以2000萬\n152810\t180137\t兩千五百萬可是韓國可以罰到2.75億等於又再是我們最高的十倍所以換言之我們現在與時俱進的情況下尤其是看到他們市場規模那麼大那我們是不是應該要考慮有沒有要做調整法律的裁罰的範圍或者是說未來這樣的一個類型的違反的時候我們要以更高標準來要求我想謝謝委員的推詢基本上\n181477\t184559\t我們可不可以先簡單講一下就是說這一次這個罰200萬這個遊戲廠商的部分我們那時候考量\n202549\t202890\t市場機制、過去營業額、用戶人數\n220773\t241512\t有嗎?怎麼我們看到很多大家討論上來講還是覺得說他是隱瞞這個是逼到說大家已經群起激憤然後網紅票出來那一開始的時候人家質疑的時候這個廠商好像還是顧左右而言他講說是韓國母公司有規定\n244539\t261625\t本席現在不是檢討單一廠商本席現在講的其實是一個通盤性的問題因為我們要良幣驅逐劣幣嘛我們希望是建立一個好的一個公平機制讓台灣的遊戲市場更健全也讓我們的玩家更有保障那公平會當然在這個角色上就扮演非常重要\n262185\t286010\t我會看贊同委員的意見就是將來在這個法環的考量上會同盤做一個考量是不是可以考量我覺得第一這個公司他到底他的營業額的一個因為他講這樣的廣告這樣的機率讓大家覺得是說機率高就投入了那可能他的營業額確實也提升那確實提升的情況下你不能用不公平的機率來去誘騙玩家所以第一他的營業額應該不要考量\n287090\t311123\t第二用戶人數到底影響到多廣要被考量以及更重要的是他今天宣稱這樣子的一個機率有沒有變成是他強打廣告的一個部分有人講什麼調保率百分百首局開抽一定抽到什麼五星級五將還是什麼有啊都有這種廣告嘛那本席現在講是說這一切一定都要考量進去你認同嗎\n313015\t341445\t那再來主委請教之前有講到是說行政院消保處跟數位部合作要推動強制公開轉彈中獎機率那也要有這個什麼驗證機制啊那還要有這個驗證機制的發起消機會要發起第三方轉彈機率驗證網等於是好像有一個第三方的公正平台告訴大家是說這個遊戲他到底他的這個機率是不是公平的\n342264\t366931\t那未來我們這個公平交易委員會這邊能夠扮演什麼樣的角色是不是能夠一起跨部會的整合來推動這樣的一個第三方別的還是你認為說這可能有自愛難行之處這部分我們有跨機關都有一起討論只要相關的法令規定業者要公佈機率要揭露機率那你這個機率跟實際不實這就是不實廣告這公平會會依公平法來講那我們有辦法查證嗎\n367811\t392293\t我現在就是說他可能他就推給說這是母公司他不是臺灣的研發公司他可能是從韓國代理進口的母公司那母公司跟有商業機密考量過去他就是這樣講就是說我們能不能就是去驗證確認他確實譬如說公佈10%的中獎機率他就確實10%在基地是否確不確實是確實是不好去查證但是我們想跨部會\n395775\t421041\t這一個是可以哪一個單位來做是公平會、速發部還是消基會還是哪一個單位可以確實告訴我們是說讓玩家其實很簡單就像食品衛生那個牛奶它裡面有多少成分的這個乳蛋白多少成分的脂肪它可能也會有衛福部來去做一個確認嘛那一樣的道理今天業者宣稱說我這個遊戲多少的機率那是哪一個單位可以去確認是說他講的是確實的\n422441\t422801\t委員會主任委員會長\n442759\t445481\t他們是有一個可以驗證的這樣一個單位那什麼時候?\n445481\t446041\t在哪裡?\n446041\t470877\t官網嗎?那個詳細的資料是不是請公平會再交給黃孟楷委員給本席一個資料但更重要的是拜託主委該召集公平會這邊召集速發部召集消極會來做開會討論因為轉蛋法已經討論很多遍了而且最重要的是透明公開的資訊讓業者能夠符合標準以及讓玩家能夠放心市場才會大我們就請他交資料給您好不好\n472221\t472442\t謝謝主委\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請李主委來請主委委員長主委好主委我想直接就教在過去大家都很關心的民間通稱所謂的轉蛋法在這個事件上面其實最主要還是一樣強調公平跟透明的機制跟原則\n那我們現在看到是說台灣的遊戲代理商的爭議啊調查確實有違反公平交易法第21條跟第4項的準用第一項規定儲200萬元的罰款但是今年啊我們看到\n這個遊戲代理的韓國母公司被韓國的公平交易委員會宣布除以116億韓元除兩2.75億新台幣的新高這也是遊戲界電子交易商品法違法的歷史新高這是在韓國的一個記錄人家可以處罰到2.75億我們最高只有200萬會不會覺得我們的法令武器太少太弱而且不痛不癢\n我們的法定的最高罰款有到2500萬那至於罰款的多少我們會看個案的案情還有這個被檢舉事業他對這件事情後來處理的態度等等那我們台灣遊戲代理商的爭議到最後只有儲200萬的罰款你說最高可以到2000、200是最低下限是不是?\n從五萬到兩千五百五萬到兩千所以說他其實他的裁量空間非常的大那也許對你們來講是覺得說哇五萬最低五萬但我處罰兩百萬好像很大但不是啊對遊戲廠商來講他可能他的一個規模市場他可能是幾億幾十億的規模市場你看現在電視廣告會打電視廣告的有哪一些業者你有沒有看\n要嘛就是汽車要嘛就遊戲對不對就代表是說會打電視廣告會打遊戲會打電視廣告代表說他的市場真的很大那本期並不是講是說遊戲廠商不能做大但是他在做大的前提之下他要符合公平原則所以說這才是民間一直在吹聲說所謂的轉蛋法那現在我們講是說我們只有200萬的罰環你說最高可以2000萬\n兩千五百萬可是韓國可以罰到2.75億等於又再是我們最高的十倍所以換言之我們現在與時俱進的情況下尤其是看到他們市場規模那麼大那我們是不是應該要考慮有沒有要做調整法律的裁罰的範圍或者是說未來這樣的一個類型的違反的時候我們要以更高標準來要求我想謝謝委員的推詢基本上\n我們可不可以先簡單講一下就是說這一次這個罰200萬這個遊戲廠商的部分我們那時候考量\n市場機制、過去營業額、用戶人數\n有嗎?怎麼我們看到很多大家討論上來講還是覺得說他是隱瞞這個是逼到說大家已經群起激憤然後網紅票出來那一開始的時候人家質疑的時候這個廠商好像還是顧左右而言他講說是韓國母公司有規定\n本席現在不是檢討單一廠商本席現在講的其實是一個通盤性的問題因為我們要良幣驅逐劣幣嘛我們希望是建立一個好的一個公平機制讓台灣的遊戲市場更健全也讓我們的玩家更有保障那公平會當然在這個角色上就扮演非常重要\n我會看贊同委員的意見就是將來在這個法環的考量上會同盤做一個考量是不是可以考量我覺得第一這個公司他到底他的營業額的一個因為他講這樣的廣告這樣的機率讓大家覺得是說機率高就投入了那可能他的營業額確實也提升那確實提升的情況下你不能用不公平的機率來去誘騙玩家所以第一他的營業額應該不要考量\n第二用戶人數到底影響到多廣要被考量以及更重要的是他今天宣稱這樣子的一個機率有沒有變成是他強打廣告的一個部分有人講什麼調保率百分百首局開抽一定抽到什麼五星級五將還是什麼有啊都有這種廣告嘛那本席現在講是說這一切一定都要考量進去你認同嗎\n那再來主委請教之前有講到是說行政院消保處跟數位部合作要推動強制公開轉彈中獎機率那也要有這個什麼驗證機制啊那還要有這個驗證機制的發起消機會要發起第三方轉彈機率驗證網等於是好像有一個第三方的公正平台告訴大家是說這個遊戲他到底他的這個機率是不是公平的\n那未來我們這個公平交易委員會這邊能夠扮演什麼樣的角色是不是能夠一起跨部會的整合來推動這樣的一個第三方別的還是你認為說這可能有自愛難行之處這部分我們有跨機關都有一起討論只要相關的法令規定業者要公佈機率要揭露機率那你這個機率跟實際不實這就是不實廣告這公平會會依公平法來講那我們有辦法查證嗎\n我現在就是說他可能他就推給說這是母公司他不是臺灣的研發公司他可能是從韓國代理進口的母公司那母公司跟有商業機密考量過去他就是這樣講就是說我們能不能就是去驗證確認他確實譬如說公佈10%的中獎機率他就確實10%在基地是否確不確實是確實是不好去查證但是我們想跨部會\n這一個是可以哪一個單位來做是公平會、速發部還是消基會還是哪一個單位可以確實告訴我們是說讓玩家其實很簡單就像食品衛生那個牛奶它裡面有多少成分的這個乳蛋白多少成分的脂肪它可能也會有衛福部來去做一個確認嘛那一樣的道理今天業者宣稱說我這個遊戲多少的機率那是哪一個單位可以去確認是說他講的是確實的\n委員會主任委員會長\n他們是有一個可以驗證的這樣一個單位那什麼時候?\n在哪裡?\n官網嗎?那個詳細的資料是不是請公平會再交給黃孟楷委員給本席一個資料但更重要的是拜託主委該召集公平會這邊召集速發部召集消極會來做開會討論因為轉蛋法已經討論很多遍了而且最重要的是透明公開的資訊讓業者能夠符合標準以及讓玩家能夠放心市場才會大我們就請他交資料給您好不好\n謝謝主委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.905 --> 00:29.228\n主席謝謝麻煩請李主委來請主委委員長主委好主委我想直接就教在過去大家都很關心的民間通稱所謂的轉蛋法在這個事件上面其實最主要還是一樣強調公平跟透明的機制跟原則\n\n00:30.319 --> 00:45.474\n那我們現在看到是說台灣的遊戲代理商的爭議啊調查確實有違反公平交易法第21條跟第4項的準用第一項規定儲200萬元的罰款但是今年啊我們看到\n\n00:47.755 --> 01:14.702\n這個遊戲代理的韓國母公司被韓國的公平交易委員會宣布除以116億韓元除兩2.75億新台幣的新高這也是遊戲界電子交易商品法違法的歷史新高這是在韓國的一個記錄人家可以處罰到2.75億我們最高只有200萬會不會覺得我們的法令武器太少太弱而且不痛不癢\n\n01:15.694 --> 01:40.163\n我們的法定的最高罰款有到2500萬那至於罰款的多少我們會看個案的案情還有這個被檢舉事業他對這件事情後來處理的態度等等那我們台灣遊戲代理商的爭議到最後只有儲200萬的罰款你說最高可以到2000、200是最低下限是不是?\n\n01:41.439 --> 02:04.799\n從五萬到兩千五百五萬到兩千所以說他其實他的裁量空間非常的大那也許對你們來講是覺得說哇五萬最低五萬但我處罰兩百萬好像很大但不是啊對遊戲廠商來講他可能他的一個規模市場他可能是幾億幾十億的規模市場你看現在電視廣告會打電視廣告的有哪一些業者你有沒有看\n\n02:05.834 --> 02:30.270\n要嘛就是汽車要嘛就遊戲對不對就代表是說會打電視廣告會打遊戲會打電視廣告代表說他的市場真的很大那本期並不是講是說遊戲廠商不能做大但是他在做大的前提之下他要符合公平原則所以說這才是民間一直在吹聲說所謂的轉蛋法那現在我們講是說我們只有200萬的罰環你說最高可以2000萬\n\n02:32.810 --> 03:00.137\n兩千五百萬可是韓國可以罰到2.75億等於又再是我們最高的十倍所以換言之我們現在與時俱進的情況下尤其是看到他們市場規模那麼大那我們是不是應該要考慮有沒有要做調整法律的裁罰的範圍或者是說未來這樣的一個類型的違反的時候我們要以更高標準來要求我想謝謝委員的推詢基本上\n\n03:01.477 --> 03:04.559\n我們可不可以先簡單講一下就是說這一次這個罰200萬這個遊戲廠商的部分我們那時候考量\n\n03:22.549 --> 03:22.890\n市場機制、過去營業額、用戶人數\n\n03:40.773 --> 04:01.512\n有嗎?怎麼我們看到很多大家討論上來講還是覺得說他是隱瞞這個是逼到說大家已經群起激憤然後網紅票出來那一開始的時候人家質疑的時候這個廠商好像還是顧左右而言他講說是韓國母公司有規定\n\n04:04.539 --> 04:21.625\n本席現在不是檢討單一廠商本席現在講的其實是一個通盤性的問題因為我們要良幣驅逐劣幣嘛我們希望是建立一個好的一個公平機制讓台灣的遊戲市場更健全也讓我們的玩家更有保障那公平會當然在這個角色上就扮演非常重要\n\n04:22.185 --> 04:46.010\n我會看贊同委員的意見就是將來在這個法環的考量上會同盤做一個考量是不是可以考量我覺得第一這個公司他到底他的營業額的一個因為他講這樣的廣告這樣的機率讓大家覺得是說機率高就投入了那可能他的營業額確實也提升那確實提升的情況下你不能用不公平的機率來去誘騙玩家所以第一他的營業額應該不要考量\n\n04:47.090 --> 05:11.123\n第二用戶人數到底影響到多廣要被考量以及更重要的是他今天宣稱這樣子的一個機率有沒有變成是他強打廣告的一個部分有人講什麼調保率百分百首局開抽一定抽到什麼五星級五將還是什麼有啊都有這種廣告嘛那本席現在講是說這一切一定都要考量進去你認同嗎\n\n05:13.015 --> 05:41.445\n那再來主委請教之前有講到是說行政院消保處跟數位部合作要推動強制公開轉彈中獎機率那也要有這個什麼驗證機制啊那還要有這個驗證機制的發起消機會要發起第三方轉彈機率驗證網等於是好像有一個第三方的公正平台告訴大家是說這個遊戲他到底他的這個機率是不是公平的\n\n05:42.264 --> 06:06.931\n那未來我們這個公平交易委員會這邊能夠扮演什麼樣的角色是不是能夠一起跨部會的整合來推動這樣的一個第三方別的還是你認為說這可能有自愛難行之處這部分我們有跨機關都有一起討論只要相關的法令規定業者要公佈機率要揭露機率那你這個機率跟實際不實這就是不實廣告這公平會會依公平法來講那我們有辦法查證嗎\n\n06:07.811 --> 06:32.293\n我現在就是說他可能他就推給說這是母公司他不是臺灣的研發公司他可能是從韓國代理進口的母公司那母公司跟有商業機密考量過去他就是這樣講就是說我們能不能就是去驗證確認他確實譬如說公佈10%的中獎機率他就確實10%在基地是否確不確實是確實是不好去查證但是我們想跨部會\n\n06:35.775 --> 07:01.041\n這一個是可以哪一個單位來做是公平會、速發部還是消基會還是哪一個單位可以確實告訴我們是說讓玩家其實很簡單就像食品衛生那個牛奶它裡面有多少成分的這個乳蛋白多少成分的脂肪它可能也會有衛福部來去做一個確認嘛那一樣的道理今天業者宣稱說我這個遊戲多少的機率那是哪一個單位可以去確認是說他講的是確實的\n\n07:02.441 --> 07:02.801\n委員會主任委員會長\n\n07:22.759 --> 07:25.481\n他們是有一個可以驗證的這樣一個單位那什麼時候?\n\n07:25.481 --> 07:26.041\n在哪裡?\n\n07:26.041 --> 07:50.877\n官網嗎?那個詳細的資料是不是請公平會再交給黃孟楷委員給本席一個資料但更重要的是拜託主委該召集公平會這邊召集速發部召集消極會來做開會討論因為轉蛋法已經討論很多遍了而且最重要的是透明公開的資訊讓業者能夠符合標準以及讓玩家能夠放心市場才會大我們就請他交資料給您好不好\n\n07:52.221 --> 07:52.442\n謝謝主委\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.905,"end":29.228,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請李主委來請主委委員長主委好主委我想直接就教在過去大家都很關心的民間通稱所謂的轉蛋法在這個事件上面其實最主要還是一樣強調公平跟透明的機制跟原則"},{"start":30.319,"end":45.474,"text":"那我們現在看到是說台灣的遊戲代理商的爭議啊調查確實有違反公平交易法第21條跟第4項的準用第一項規定儲200萬元的罰款但是今年啊我們看到"},{"start":47.755,"end":74.702,"text":"這個遊戲代理的韓國母公司被韓國的公平交易委員會宣布除以116億韓元除兩2.75億新台幣的新高這也是遊戲界電子交易商品法違法的歷史新高這是在韓國的一個記錄人家可以處罰到2.75億我們最高只有200萬會不會覺得我們的法令武器太少太弱而且不痛不癢"},{"start":75.694,"end":100.163,"text":"我們的法定的最高罰款有到2500萬那至於罰款的多少我們會看個案的案情還有這個被檢舉事業他對這件事情後來處理的態度等等那我們台灣遊戲代理商的爭議到最後只有儲200萬的罰款你說最高可以到2000、200是最低下限是不是?"},{"start":101.439,"end":124.799,"text":"從五萬到兩千五百五萬到兩千所以說他其實他的裁量空間非常的大那也許對你們來講是覺得說哇五萬最低五萬但我處罰兩百萬好像很大但不是啊對遊戲廠商來講他可能他的一個規模市場他可能是幾億幾十億的規模市場你看現在電視廣告會打電視廣告的有哪一些業者你有沒有看"},{"start":125.834,"end":150.27,"text":"要嘛就是汽車要嘛就遊戲對不對就代表是說會打電視廣告會打遊戲會打電視廣告代表說他的市場真的很大那本期並不是講是說遊戲廠商不能做大但是他在做大的前提之下他要符合公平原則所以說這才是民間一直在吹聲說所謂的轉蛋法那現在我們講是說我們只有200萬的罰環你說最高可以2000萬"},{"start":152.81,"end":180.137,"text":"兩千五百萬可是韓國可以罰到2.75億等於又再是我們最高的十倍所以換言之我們現在與時俱進的情況下尤其是看到他們市場規模那麼大那我們是不是應該要考慮有沒有要做調整法律的裁罰的範圍或者是說未來這樣的一個類型的違反的時候我們要以更高標準來要求我想謝謝委員的推詢基本上"},{"start":181.477,"end":184.559,"text":"我們可不可以先簡單講一下就是說這一次這個罰200萬這個遊戲廠商的部分我們那時候考量"},{"start":202.549,"end":202.89,"text":"市場機制、過去營業額、用戶人數"},{"start":220.773,"end":241.512,"text":"有嗎?怎麼我們看到很多大家討論上來講還是覺得說他是隱瞞這個是逼到說大家已經群起激憤然後網紅票出來那一開始的時候人家質疑的時候這個廠商好像還是顧左右而言他講說是韓國母公司有規定"},{"start":244.539,"end":261.625,"text":"本席現在不是檢討單一廠商本席現在講的其實是一個通盤性的問題因為我們要良幣驅逐劣幣嘛我們希望是建立一個好的一個公平機制讓台灣的遊戲市場更健全也讓我們的玩家更有保障那公平會當然在這個角色上就扮演非常重要"},{"start":262.185,"end":286.01,"text":"我會看贊同委員的意見就是將來在這個法環的考量上會同盤做一個考量是不是可以考量我覺得第一這個公司他到底他的營業額的一個因為他講這樣的廣告這樣的機率讓大家覺得是說機率高就投入了那可能他的營業額確實也提升那確實提升的情況下你不能用不公平的機率來去誘騙玩家所以第一他的營業額應該不要考量"},{"start":287.09,"end":311.123,"text":"第二用戶人數到底影響到多廣要被考量以及更重要的是他今天宣稱這樣子的一個機率有沒有變成是他強打廣告的一個部分有人講什麼調保率百分百首局開抽一定抽到什麼五星級五將還是什麼有啊都有這種廣告嘛那本席現在講是說這一切一定都要考量進去你認同嗎"},{"start":313.015,"end":341.445,"text":"那再來主委請教之前有講到是說行政院消保處跟數位部合作要推動強制公開轉彈中獎機率那也要有這個什麼驗證機制啊那還要有這個驗證機制的發起消機會要發起第三方轉彈機率驗證網等於是好像有一個第三方的公正平台告訴大家是說這個遊戲他到底他的這個機率是不是公平的"},{"start":342.264,"end":366.931,"text":"那未來我們這個公平交易委員會這邊能夠扮演什麼樣的角色是不是能夠一起跨部會的整合來推動這樣的一個第三方別的還是你認為說這可能有自愛難行之處這部分我們有跨機關都有一起討論只要相關的法令規定業者要公佈機率要揭露機率那你這個機率跟實際不實這就是不實廣告這公平會會依公平法來講那我們有辦法查證嗎"},{"start":367.811,"end":392.293,"text":"我現在就是說他可能他就推給說這是母公司他不是臺灣的研發公司他可能是從韓國代理進口的母公司那母公司跟有商業機密考量過去他就是這樣講就是說我們能不能就是去驗證確認他確實譬如說公佈10%的中獎機率他就確實10%在基地是否確不確實是確實是不好去查證但是我們想跨部會"},{"start":395.775,"end":421.041,"text":"這一個是可以哪一個單位來做是公平會、速發部還是消基會還是哪一個單位可以確實告訴我們是說讓玩家其實很簡單就像食品衛生那個牛奶它裡面有多少成分的這個乳蛋白多少成分的脂肪它可能也會有衛福部來去做一個確認嘛那一樣的道理今天業者宣稱說我這個遊戲多少的機率那是哪一個單位可以去確認是說他講的是確實的"},{"start":422.441,"end":422.801,"text":"委員會主任委員會長"},{"start":442.759,"end":445.481,"text":"他們是有一個可以驗證的這樣一個單位那什麼時候?"},{"start":445.481,"end":446.041,"text":"在哪裡?"},{"start":446.041,"end":470.877,"text":"官網嗎?那個詳細的資料是不是請公平會再交給黃孟楷委員給本席一個資料但更重要的是拜託主委該召集公平會這邊召集速發部召集消極會來做開會討論因為轉蛋法已經討論很多遍了而且最重要的是透明公開的資訊讓業者能夠符合標準以及讓玩家能夠放心市場才會大我們就請他交資料給您好不好"},{"start":472.221,"end":472.442,"text":"謝謝主委"}]}}}}