{"id":149690,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149690","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43004c965dc5d69a63adaf4279b9ad9aebfdf8ba9b0039caa7a60e17d421418d2e265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:38:34 - 11:50:25","影片長度":"00:11:51","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-4"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":711,"end_time":"2024-03-11T11:50:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T11:38:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":778,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時38分）有請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你好。"],["蔡局長明彥：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我要問的問題如果你們同仁有認真幫你準備，一定已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了。我今天要問的問題其實很簡單，就是這間房子的問題。我直接切到議題裡面，選舉已經過去了，我們都把政治放兩旁，就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西。我一輩子是念法律的，我們就來談什麼叫依法行政。請問局長，為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安？"],["蔡局長明彥：依照特勤條例，我們維安……"],["吳委員宗憲：第幾條？"],["李副指揮官：第十二條。"],["蔡局長明彥：我請特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：請快一點，時間很短。第十二條，對不對？"],["李副指揮官：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我來講一下。局長，第十二條是可以對於受維安者的住居所加以維安，請問這個是住所，還居所？還是什麼？"],["李副指揮官：這個是居所。"],["吳委員宗憲：我有看到賴清德的發言人也說，這個是符合特種勤務條例。我請教一下，過去4年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，他有不定期住在這邊，所以才會把它定位為居所。"],["吳委員宗憲：他不定期住在這邊，他住在裡面幾個晚上？你們不可能不知道啊！在裡面睡過幾個晚上？你不要跟我說午睡也算，睡過幾個晚上？"],["蔡局長明彥：相關情資涉及到維安對象的作息，我們沒辦法對外洩漏。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我告訴你，他們自己也講他不是住在那個地方。我們來看一下民法第二十條是怎麼規定的，民法第二十條講得很清楚，依一定的事實，有久住的意思，這個才叫做住所。我們再來看什麼叫做居所？83年抗字第2343號，另外還有很多個，我就不講了。居所的意思就是要有居住的事實，只是沒有久住的意思。譬如我住在宿舍、我長期住那裡就是居所，那不叫住所。也就是今天這個地方根本不符合住所，也不叫居所，請問一下你們憑什麼去維安？"],["蔡局長明彥：它確實是按照我們特勤作業的規劃，不只是針對賴副總統，長期以來我們的維安對象、我們對住居所的定義，針對居所的部分……"],["吳委員宗憲：不行這樣講！你們一直說你們依法行政，你現在又跟我說那一套，我聽不進去。法律上的住所依民法第二十條有規定，多次的判決、判例也都有說明什麼叫居所。你今天針對這個地方，既不是他名下的房子，他只是偶爾有過去，這不叫住所也不叫居所，憑什麼國安局可以去做這樣的維安？你的依法行政依的是什麼法？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們就依特勤條例把它認定為是維安對象的居所。"],["吳委員宗憲：法律是可以隨便你們這樣解釋的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們大概都是依照這樣的作業規範來做。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在告訴你，這個就是違法的維安！因為法律上面完全不合，之前沒有人點出來，但我念法律的，我必須在這邊告訴你，我會負完全的責任，我從還不是當立委的時候就一直在主張這個，但當時我沒有言論免責權，我說要告就可以告我。我必須告訴你們，這個就是完全違法嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有……"],["吳委員宗憲：你在那邊跟我說沒有違法。"],["蔡局長明彥：居所這邊特別提到的是，他只要有居住在當特定地域的客觀事實，沒有久住，只要他有居住的事實，它就是一個居所，所以沒有違法。"],["吳委員宗憲：你要不要去問律師？你要不要先去問一下律師，再來回答我這個問題？我在這邊給你上個法學小教室，住所就是有永久居住的意思；居所是有居住的事實，只是沒有久住。例如你大學4年住宿舍，那個叫做你的居所，要有一個居住的事實存在。所以我剛剛請教你，過去3年多、快4年，副總統在那邊住過幾天？"],["蔡局長明彥：有住過。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要跟我說住一、兩天。如果是這樣，旅館是不是我的居所？我好幾次睡在立法院，立法院是不是我的居所？不是有睡在那邊一個晚上、兩個晚上就叫做居所，你們對法律不能這樣亂解釋。你一直對外界、對民眾說，你叫做依法行政，說真的，我搞不清楚你依什麼法？","另外，我再請教你，如果是受維安者的住所或居所，你們有沒有裁量權說不爽就可以不要去維安？你有沒有裁量權說可以不去維安？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來判斷要不要維安，這有專業的判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是他的住所，你也可以不要去維安，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：一般來講，既然是住所、是長期居住的，我們就一定要派置維安人員。居所的話……"],["吳委員宗憲：我再請教你，你們憑什麼後來撤哨？撤哨是什麼原因？"],["蔡局長明彥：第一個、它是居所，因為有去居住的事實，符合剛剛委員列出來居所相關的法律、判例解釋，所以我們去做維安。"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛剛已經跟你說，那不叫居所！我已經跟你說，那不叫居所！"],["蔡局長明彥：他有居住的事實，就在我們居所的定義裡面。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你說，法律如果可以這樣隨便讓你解釋，那太離譜了！法律不能這樣做。報告局長，你們不能這樣亂解釋法律，這樣我睡過某一間旅館，那也是我的居所。我去我爸媽家住一晚，也叫我的居所嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們都會評估。只要有維安的需要，對於我們維安對象的安全，我們一定採取最嚴格的方式來維護安全。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長要這樣亂解釋法律，算了！我也不想再跟你爭辯。"],["蔡局長明彥：這是我們依法行政的解釋。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，對法律有這種解釋，全臺灣念法律的人都會聽不下去！當時為什麼撤哨？"],["蔡局長明彥：撤哨是居所的事實已經出現了改變，因為我們的維安對象已經宣布，他不再繼續居住在這個地方，他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體集合的場所。"],["吳委員宗憲：他講一句話，他在辯論會的時候講了這句話，就可以變成沒有維安的必要，我跟你說，我這幾天也在看房子，我一直想要在臺北買一個小房子，我看到一間，我說的是事實，結果他突然就跟我說不賣，我在「591」看到，結果他就跟我說不賣。好，今天你們知不知道依照信託法，他必須要主管機關許可，所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可，為什麼副總統今天講一句「我要交付公益信託」，那這個就信託了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，有沒有完成信託是一回事，但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所，所以我們就撤除了維安的維護，就這麼簡單。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：就這麼簡單。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：信託是歸信託的流程。"],["吳委員宗憲：那個地方不是居所，如果認為是居所，你也不能撤，不是錯A，就是錯B；不是錯去那邊維安，就是錯了撤哨。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這都是依照……"],["吳委員宗憲：二個就是錯一個，所以我跟你說，我說一句重話，不好意思，比較得罪，公務員是國家的，不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，當然。"],["吳委員宗憲：千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道。"],["蔡局長明彥：並沒有、並沒有，這個不是只有適用在賴副總統……"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦！那沒關係啦！至少我跟你說……"],["蔡局長明彥：我們歷來的維安都是依照這個標準，標準都一致……"],["吳委員宗憲：至少我跟局長說……"],["蔡局長明彥：標準都一致的。"],["吳委員宗憲：居所，麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所，如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說，他有在那邊住過幾晚就叫做居所，全國的判決、判例重新再來過了啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來提供維安……"],["吳委員宗憲：不叫作歷來，依法、依法……"],["蔡局長明彥：維安對象都是依法行政……"],["吳委員宗憲：你們一直對外說依法行政……"],["蔡局長明彥：是依法行政。"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩要依法，不能這樣做。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，依法行政，提供所有維安對象同等的維安待遇。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是同等，這不是平等原則在談的地方，我們現在是談法律，特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所、居所就是法律上面住所、居所的定義，貴局不可以自己亂擴張解釋。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有亂……我們就是依法行政，我剛也解釋了。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我剛已經跟你說法律的居所不是這樣，你現在要跟我辯論，好啦！我跟你說……"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，你可以……對，那個字義你再瞭解一下，就……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是我要瞭解，我做了二十幾年的法律人，我對這個地方很清楚，所以我剛剛是麻煩局長，貴局能夠去請教一下律師……"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個地方是你弄錯了，還是我弄錯了，什麼叫做居所，麻煩你們弄清楚，如果照你的那個說法的話，我跟你講我們的民法、我們的歷年判決都判錯了，好不好？這部分麻煩你弄清楚。","後面我再跟你討論的是全國民眾一直很在乎現場維安人員拿掃除用具的事情，我有看過你們的說法，但是我必須講，你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走，但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看，如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走，那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事，會引起很多不必要的糾紛？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作，只有維安的工作，那針對這個個案，我們特勤中心也有去瞭解當天的狀況，當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我本來是想要請問一下打掃是屬於什麼維安行為，但是……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是完全沒道理，但是你們至少要跟同仁講，不要造成這種誤會，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：我也跟委員報告一下，你可以在螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士，他就是一個清潔工人，名字我都可以跟你講。"],["吳委員宗憲：這我沒有否認。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他就是清潔工人。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以到現在我沒有去質疑你這個點，對不對？我一直沒有質疑嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！但是……"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有講這個點，我認同你們說的，OK，那你們說的如果有道理的情況下，是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意思只是這樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：剛剛我們提到的住所、居所得否維安，我跟你講我的立場是這樣，對於法律，我自己檢察官做20年，後來當法制局長做4年，這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律，從大學念到現在，居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義，你不能說以前這樣做對，現在就是對，沒有這種事情，也不是說你對別人這樣做對，對賴副總統這樣做就對，你是在陷害他，你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權份子，這不好，這會害到賴副總統，我相信一個副總統不會去對維安這麼小的事情，他會去知道這件事，這樣變成說你讓他背了一個黑鍋，在這邊我只是這樣講……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，尊重委員的……"],["吳委員宗憲：居所絕對不是這個定義，千萬不要拿別人這麼做、以往這麼做，今天我就可以這麼做，法律不是這樣玩的。"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重委員的見解。"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦！那我也尊重你剛剛的說法，但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法，可不可以二個禮拜給我一個……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們一個書面說明給委員參考……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，書面說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：瞭解我們的論述的法理依據，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。就剛剛委員提的部分，如果是這樣，我們甚至可以要求在過去……反正現在已經撤哨了，是不是應該要提供過去居住的是哪些時間，因為特勤人員只要去行使職權的時候，其實通常會有紀錄的，就這一個部分，我們希望在委員會跟委員討論的時候還是據實以告，不然我們會做這些要求，這個局長也請準備一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請高金素梅，高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","請吳思瑤，吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請蔡易餘，蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","請李昆澤，李昆澤、李昆澤委員不在。","請鄭天財，鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有陳永康委員、林憶君委員、王定宇委員、黃仁委員，還有王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。本日委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-4","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","陳冠廷","邱志偉","賴士葆","張啓楷","吳宗憲","陳永康","林憶君","王定宇","黃仁","王鴻薇","洪申翰"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告「因應中共兩會召開及年底美國總統大選，就國際及兩岸局勢發\n展之研析」，併請國防部副部長、海洋委員會海巡署署長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131001_00012"}},"transcript":{"id":"149690","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149690","tool":"pyannote","id":"149690-pyannote"},"job_id":"LkiYbefY4uHMK5Cj","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 707.492, \"end\": 707.592, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 707.592, \"end\": 707.732, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 707.732, \"end\": 707.752, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:19,084\n我們請有請局長請蔡局長局長你好其實我要問的問題我要問的問題其實如果你們同仁有有認真幫你準備的話一定會已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了那很簡單來說\n\n2\n00:00:21,328 --> 00:00:43,494\n我今天要問的問題其實很簡單就是這間房子的問題那我想我直接切到議題裡面選舉已經過去了我們都把政治放兩旁我們就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西我一輩子是念法律的那我們就來談什麼叫依法行政請問局長為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安對依照我們的特定條例第幾條\n\n3\n00:00:47,111 --> 00:01:05,652\n我請我們特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員請快一點好我們時間很短第12條對不對是好那我來講一下第12條局長第12條我們是可以對於受維安者的駐居所加以維安請問一下這個是住所還是居所還是什麼\n\n4\n00:01:07,005 --> 00:01:08,366\n過去四年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上?\n\n5\n00:01:26,789 --> 00:01:52,676\n有,他不定期住在這邊,所以才會把他定位為居所他不定期住在,他是住在裡面幾個晚上,你們不可能不知道啊在裡面睡過幾個晚上,你不要跟我說5歲也算,睡過幾個晚上那相關的情資涉及到我們維安對象的作息,我們沒有辦法...好,沒關係,那我告訴你,他們自己也講,他不是住在那個地方好,那我們來看一下,民法第20條是什麼規定的\n\n6\n00:01:58,058 --> 00:02:23,985\n來我跟你們說民法第20條講得很清楚一定的事實有久住的意思這個才叫做住所好那我們再來看什麼叫做居所83年抗治2343號另外還有很多個啦我就不講了居所的意思就是你要有居住的事實只是沒有久住的意思比如說我住在宿舍我長期住那裡就是居所那不叫住所\n\n7\n00:02:24,626 --> 00:02:31,766\n也就是說今天這個地方根本不符合住所也不叫居所請問一下你們憑什麼去維安\n\n8\n00:02:32,932 --> 00:02:55,988\n他確實是按照我們的特勤作業的規劃,不只是針對賴副總統,長期以來我們的維安對象,我們的駐居所的定義,針對居所...不行不行,這樣講,你們一直說你們依法行政,你現在又跟我說,說那一套我聽不進去,法律上面駐所民法20條規定,居所多次的判決判例也都有說明什麼叫居所,\n\n9\n00:02:56,568 --> 00:03:17,862\n那你今天針對的這個地方也不是他的名下的房子他偶爾有過去這不叫住所也不叫居所憑什麼國安局可以去做這樣的違安你的依法行政依的是什麼法對我們依的就是我們特定條例把它認定為是違安對象的居所那這樣法律是可以隨便你們這樣子解釋的嗎\n\n10\n00:03:19,161 --> 00:03:42,442\n但我們在相關的一個作業的規範大概都是依照這樣的一個那我現在告訴你你們這個就是違法的違安啊因為法律上面完全不合嘛之前沒有人點出來但我念法律的我必須在這邊告訴你我會負完全的責任我從還不是當立委的時候我就一直在主張這個但當時我說我那時候沒有言論免責權要告可以告我那我必須告訴你們\n\n11\n00:03:43,183 --> 00:04:07,604\n你這個就是完全違法嗎?你在那邊跟我說沒有違法?居所他這邊特別提到的是他只要有居住在特定的地域的客觀的事實沒有久住只要他有居住的事實他就是一個居所所以沒有違法你要不要先去問一下律師再回答這個問題我跟你講我在那邊給你上個法學小教室\n\n12\n00:04:08,385 --> 00:04:26,527\n住所就是你永久居住的意思居所是你有居住的事實只是沒有久住例如你大學四年住宿舍那個叫做你的居所他要有一個居住的事實存在你今天所以我剛剛請教你過去的三年多快四年\n\n13\n00:04:27,991 --> 00:04:50,033\n副總統在那邊住過幾天有住過你不要跟我說住兩天那旅館是不是我的居所我好幾次睡在立法院那立法院是不是我的居所不是說有睡在那個一個晚上兩個晚上那叫做居所你們法律不能這樣亂解釋啊然後你一直對外界對民眾說你叫做依法行政我說真的好我搞不清楚你依什麼法另外我再請教你\n\n14\n00:04:51,420 --> 00:05:15,067\n如果是受維安者的住所或居所,你們有沒有裁量權說我不爽,我可以不要去維安?你有沒有裁量權說我可以不去維安?我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來做判斷,要不要維安,對,只有專業的判斷。如果是他的住所,你也可以不要去維安,是不是?一般來講,既然他是住所,是長期居住的,我們就一定要派至我們的維安。好,那我再請教你,那你們憑什麼會來撤掃?\n\n15\n00:05:16,807 --> 00:05:34,161\n測哨是什麼原因?第一個他是居所因為有去居住的事實符合剛剛委員列出來居所的相關的法律的判例的解釋沒有我已經跟你說那不叫居所我已經跟你說那不叫居所委員他有居住的事實他就是在我們的居所的第一面我跟你說法律如果可以這樣隨便跟你解釋的話\n\n16\n00:05:35,402 --> 00:05:47,508\n那太離譜了啦法律不能這樣做啦報告局長你們不能這樣子亂解釋法律那這樣子我哪裡睡過某一間旅館我睡過也是我的居所我去我爸媽家住一晚也叫我的居所嗎\n\n17\n00:05:48,530 --> 00:06:04,256\n我們這會做評估我們這都會做評估只要有維安的需要對於我們維安對象的安全我們可以採取分別的方式局長你要這樣亂解釋法律算了我也不想再跟你爭辯這個點我跟你講這法律這種解釋全台灣念法律的人會聽不下去\n\n18\n00:06:06,877 --> 00:06:33,273\n當時為什麼撤掃?撤掃是居所的事實已經出現了改變因為我們的維安對象已經宣布了他不再繼續居住在這個地方他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體的他講一句話他在辯論會的時候講了這句話就可以變成沒有維安的必要我跟你說我這幾天也在看房子我一直想要在台北買一個小房子我看到一間我說的是事實結果\n\n19\n00:06:34,854 --> 00:06:57,786\n結果他跟我說突然跟我說不賣我在591看到結果他又跟我說不賣今天你們知不知道依照信託法信託法他必須要主管機關核准要主管機關許可所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可為什麼副總統今天講了一句我要交付公益信託那這個就信託了嗎\n\n20\n00:06:58,803 --> 00:07:22,294\n有沒有完成信託是一回事但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所所以我們就撤除了維安的維護就這麼簡單我跟你講啦那個地方不是居所如果是認為是居所你也不能撤不是撤A就是撤B不是撤去那邊維安就是錯了\n\n21\n00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:31,272\n撤哨沒有這都是依照兩個就是錯一個所以我真我跟你說啦唉我說一句重話不好意思不要得罪\n\n22\n00:07:33,342 --> 00:08:00,965\n公務員是國家的,不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的當然當然千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道並沒有,並沒有,這個不是只有適用在...那沒關係啦,至少我跟你說,至少跟局長說,居所麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說他有在那邊住過幾晚,就叫做居所全國的判決判例重新再來過了啦\n\n23\n00:08:01,585 --> 00:08:26,757\n我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來不叫做歷來依法依法你們一直對外說依法行政麻煩要依法不能這樣做有依法行政提供所有的違案對象同等的一個違案待遇不是同等這不是平等原則在談的地方我們現在是談法律是特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所居所就是法律上面的住所居所的定義\n\n24\n00:08:28,138 --> 00:08:35,799\n規矩不可以自己亂擴張解釋我剛跟你說法律的居所不是這樣你現在跟我辯論說\n\n25\n00:08:38,088 --> 00:09:05,162\n你那個字義再了解一下不是我要了解我做了20幾年的法律人我對這地方很清楚所以我剛剛是麻煩局長、貴局能夠去請教一下律師這個地方是你弄錯了還是我弄錯了什麼叫做居所麻煩你們弄清楚如果照你的那個說法的話我跟你講我們的民法我們的歷年的判決都判錯了\n\n26\n00:09:06,362 --> 00:09:30,673\n這部分麻煩你弄清楚後面我再跟你討論全國民眾一直很在乎現場危害人員拿掃除用具的事情我有看過你們的說法但是我必須講一個你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看\n\n27\n00:09:31,974 --> 00:09:57,582\n那你們是不是如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事會引起很多不必要的糾紛我們的維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作只有維安的工作那針對這個個案我們特勤中心也有去了解當天的狀況那當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況\n\n28\n00:09:58,758 --> 00:10:26,138\n我本來是想要請問一下就是說打掃是屬於什麼違安的行為但是我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦不是完全沒道理但是你們至少跟同仁講不要造成這種誤會嘛對不對我也跟那個委員報告一下你可以在委員螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士他就是一個清潔工人名字我都可以跟你講這我沒有否認所以我沒有我到現在我沒有我沒有去質疑你這個點嘛對不對我一直沒有質疑嘛\n\n29\n00:10:27,258 --> 00:10:47,164\n我沒有講這個點我認同你們說的那你們說的如果有道理的情況下是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會我的意思只是這樣剛剛我們提到的那個住所居所得否為安的我跟你講我的立場是這樣我對於法律\n\n30\n00:10:48,064 --> 00:11:13,591\n我自己檢察官做20年我後來當法律局長做4年這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律從大學念到現在居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義你不能說以前這樣做對現在就是對沒有這種事情也不是說你對別人這樣做對對賴副總統這樣做就對你是在陷害他你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權分子這不好這會害到賴副總統\n\n31\n00:11:15,231 --> 00:11:15,791\n尊重委員的見解\n\n32\n00:11:36,325 --> 00:11:47,752\n好啦那我也尊重你剛剛的那個說法啦但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法可不可以兩個禮拜給我一個就是好我們一個書面的說明給我對書面說明瞭解我們的論述的法理的依據謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t19084\t我們請有請局長請蔡局長局長你好其實我要問的問題我要問的問題其實如果你們同仁有有認真幫你準備的話一定會已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了那很簡單來說\n21328\t43494\t我今天要問的問題其實很簡單就是這間房子的問題那我想我直接切到議題裡面選舉已經過去了我們都把政治放兩旁我們就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西我一輩子是念法律的那我們就來談什麼叫依法行政請問局長為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安對依照我們的特定條例第幾條\n47111\t65652\t我請我們特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員請快一點好我們時間很短第12條對不對是好那我來講一下第12條局長第12條我們是可以對於受維安者的駐居所加以維安請問一下這個是住所還是居所還是什麼\n67005\t68366\t過去四年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上?\n86789\t112676\t有,他不定期住在這邊,所以才會把他定位為居所他不定期住在,他是住在裡面幾個晚上,你們不可能不知道啊在裡面睡過幾個晚上,你不要跟我說5歲也算,睡過幾個晚上那相關的情資涉及到我們維安對象的作息,我們沒有辦法...好,沒關係,那我告訴你,他們自己也講,他不是住在那個地方好,那我們來看一下,民法第20條是什麼規定的\n118058\t143985\t來 我跟你們說 民法第20條講得很清楚一定的事實有久住的意思 這個才叫做住所好 那我們再來看 什麼叫做居所83年抗治2343號 另外還有很多個啦 我就不講了居所的意思就是 你要有居住的事實 只是沒有久住的意思比如說我住在宿舍 我長期住那裡就是居所 那不叫住所\n144626\t151766\t也就是說今天這個地方根本不符合住所也不叫居所請問一下你們憑什麼去維安\n152932\t175988\t他確實是按照我們的特勤作業的規劃,不只是針對賴副總統,長期以來我們的維安對象,我們的駐居所的定義,針對居所...不行不行,這樣講,你們一直說你們依法行政,你現在又跟我說,說那一套我聽不進去,法律上面駐所民法20條規定,居所多次的判決判例也都有說明什麼叫居所,\n176568\t197862\t那你今天針對的這個地方也不是他的名下的房子他偶爾有過去這不叫住所也不叫居所憑什麼國安局可以去做這樣的違安你的依法行政依的是什麼法對我們依的就是我們特定條例把它認定為是違安對象的居所那這樣法律是可以隨便你們這樣子解釋的嗎\n199161\t222442\t但我們在相關的一個作業的規範大概都是依照這樣的一個那我現在告訴你你們這個就是違法的違安啊因為法律上面完全不合嘛之前沒有人點出來但我念法律的我必須在這邊告訴你我會負完全的責任我從還不是當立委的時候我就一直在主張這個但當時我說我那時候沒有言論免責權要告可以告我那我必須告訴你們\n223183\t247604\t你這個就是完全違法嗎?你在那邊跟我說沒有違法?居所他這邊特別提到的是他只要有居住在特定的地域的客觀的事實沒有久住只要他有居住的事實他就是一個居所所以沒有違法你要不要先去問一下律師再回答這個問題我跟你講我在那邊給你上個法學小教室\n248385\t266527\t住所就是你永久居住的意思居所是你有居住的事實只是沒有久住例如你大學四年住宿舍那個叫做你的居所他要有一個居住的事實存在你今天所以我剛剛請教你過去的三年多快四年\n267991\t290033\t副總統在那邊住過幾天有住過你不要跟我說住兩天那旅館是不是我的居所我好幾次睡在立法院那立法院是不是我的居所不是說有睡在那個一個晚上兩個晚上那叫做居所你們法律不能這樣亂解釋啊然後你一直對外界對民眾說你叫做依法行政我說真的好我搞不清楚你依什麼法另外我再請教你\n291420\t315067\t如果是受維安者的住所或居所,你們有沒有裁量權說我不爽,我可以不要去維安?你有沒有裁量權說我可以不去維安?我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來做判斷,要不要維安,對,只有專業的判斷。如果是他的住所,你也可以不要去維安,是不是?一般來講,既然他是住所,是長期居住的,我們就一定要派至我們的維安。好,那我再請教你,那你們憑什麼會來撤掃?\n316807\t334161\t測哨是什麼原因?第一個他是居所因為有去居住的事實符合剛剛委員列出來居所的相關的法律的判例的解釋沒有我已經跟你說那不叫居所我已經跟你說那不叫居所委員他有居住的事實他就是在我們的居所的第一面我跟你說法律如果可以這樣隨便跟你解釋的話\n335402\t347508\t那太離譜了啦 法律不能這樣做啦報告局長 你們不能這樣子亂解釋法律那這樣子我哪裡睡過 某一間旅館我睡過也是我的居所我去我爸媽家住一晚也叫我的居所嗎\n348530\t364256\t我們這會做評估我們這都會做評估只要有維安的需要對於我們維安對象的安全我們可以採取分別的方式局長你要這樣亂解釋法律算了我也不想再跟你爭辯這個點我跟你講這法律這種解釋全台灣念法律的人會聽不下去\n366877\t393273\t當時為什麼撤掃?撤掃是居所的事實已經出現了改變因為我們的維安對象已經宣布了他不再繼續居住在這個地方他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體的他講一句話他在辯論會的時候講了這句話就可以變成沒有維安的必要我跟你說我這幾天也在看房子我一直想要在台北買一個小房子我看到一間我說的是事實結果\n394854\t417786\t結果他跟我說突然跟我說不賣我在591看到結果他又跟我說不賣今天你們知不知道依照信託法信託法他必須要主管機關核准要主管機關許可所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可為什麼副總統今天講了一句我要交付公益信託那這個就信託了嗎\n418803\t442294\t有沒有完成信託是一回事但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所所以我們就撤除了維安的維護就這麼簡單我跟你講啦那個地方不是居所如果是認為是居所你也不能撤不是撤A就是撤B不是撤去那邊維安就是錯了\n443720\t451272\t撤哨沒有這都是依照兩個就是錯一個所以我真我跟你說啦唉我說一句重話不好意思不要得罪\n453342\t480965\t公務員是國家的,不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的當然當然千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道並沒有,並沒有,這個不是只有適用在...那沒關係啦,至少我跟你說,至少跟局長說,居所麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說他有在那邊住過幾晚,就叫做居所全國的判決判例重新再來過了啦\n481585\t506757\t我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來不叫做歷來依法依法你們一直對外說依法行政麻煩要依法不能這樣做有依法行政提供所有的違案對象同等的一個違案待遇不是同等這不是平等原則在談的地方我們現在是談法律是特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所居所就是法律上面的住所居所的定義\n508138\t515799\t規矩不可以自己亂擴張解釋我剛跟你說法律的居所不是這樣你現在跟我辯論說\n518088\t545162\t你那個字義再了解一下不是我要了解我做了20幾年的法律人我對這地方很清楚所以我剛剛是麻煩局長、貴局能夠去請教一下律師這個地方是你弄錯了還是我弄錯了什麼叫做居所麻煩你們弄清楚如果照你的那個說法的話我跟你講我們的民法我們的歷年的判決都判錯了\n546362\t570673\t這部分麻煩你弄清楚後面我再跟你討論全國民眾一直很在乎現場危害人員拿掃除用具的事情我有看過你們的說法但是我必須講一個你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看\n571974\t597582\t那你們是不是如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事會引起很多不必要的糾紛我們的維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作只有維安的工作那針對這個個案我們特勤中心也有去了解當天的狀況那當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況\n598758\t626138\t我本來是想要請問一下就是說打掃是屬於什麼違安的行為但是我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦不是完全沒道理但是你們至少跟同仁講不要造成這種誤會嘛對不對我也跟那個委員報告一下你可以在委員螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士他就是一個清潔工人名字我都可以跟你講這我沒有否認所以我沒有我到現在我沒有我沒有去質疑你這個點嘛對不對我一直沒有質疑嘛\n627258\t647164\t我沒有講這個點我認同你們說的那你們說的如果有道理的情況下是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會我的意思只是這樣剛剛我們提到的那個住所居所得否為安的我跟你講我的立場是這樣我對於法律\n648064\t673591\t我自己檢察官做20年我後來當法律局長做4年這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律從大學念到現在居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義你不能說以前這樣做對現在就是對沒有這種事情也不是說你對別人這樣做對對賴副總統這樣做就對你是在陷害他你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權分子這不好這會害到賴副總統\n675231\t675791\t尊重委員的見解\n696325\t707752\t好啦那我也尊重你剛剛的那個說法啦但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法可不可以兩個禮拜給我一個就是好我們一個書面的說明給我對書面說明瞭解我們的論述的法理的依據謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"我們請有請局長請蔡局長局長你好其實我要問的問題我要問的問題其實如果你們同仁有有認真幫你準備的話一定會已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了那很簡單來說\n我今天要問的問題其實很簡單就是這間房子的問題那我想我直接切到議題裡面選舉已經過去了我們都把政治放兩旁我們就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西我一輩子是念法律的那我們就來談什麼叫依法行政請問局長為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安對依照我們的特定條例第幾條\n我請我們特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員請快一點好我們時間很短第12條對不對是好那我來講一下第12條局長第12條我們是可以對於受維安者的駐居所加以維安請問一下這個是住所還是居所還是什麼\n過去四年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上?\n有,他不定期住在這邊,所以才會把他定位為居所他不定期住在,他是住在裡面幾個晚上,你們不可能不知道啊在裡面睡過幾個晚上,你不要跟我說5歲也算,睡過幾個晚上那相關的情資涉及到我們維安對象的作息,我們沒有辦法...好,沒關係,那我告訴你,他們自己也講,他不是住在那個地方好,那我們來看一下,民法第20條是什麼規定的\n來 我跟你們說 民法第20條講得很清楚一定的事實有久住的意思 這個才叫做住所好 那我們再來看 什麼叫做居所83年抗治2343號 另外還有很多個啦 我就不講了居所的意思就是 你要有居住的事實 只是沒有久住的意思比如說我住在宿舍 我長期住那裡就是居所 那不叫住所\n也就是說今天這個地方根本不符合住所也不叫居所請問一下你們憑什麼去維安\n他確實是按照我們的特勤作業的規劃,不只是針對賴副總統,長期以來我們的維安對象,我們的駐居所的定義,針對居所...不行不行,這樣講,你們一直說你們依法行政,你現在又跟我說,說那一套我聽不進去,法律上面駐所民法20條規定,居所多次的判決判例也都有說明什麼叫居所,\n那你今天針對的這個地方也不是他的名下的房子他偶爾有過去這不叫住所也不叫居所憑什麼國安局可以去做這樣的違安你的依法行政依的是什麼法對我們依的就是我們特定條例把它認定為是違安對象的居所那這樣法律是可以隨便你們這樣子解釋的嗎\n但我們在相關的一個作業的規範大概都是依照這樣的一個那我現在告訴你你們這個就是違法的違安啊因為法律上面完全不合嘛之前沒有人點出來但我念法律的我必須在這邊告訴你我會負完全的責任我從還不是當立委的時候我就一直在主張這個但當時我說我那時候沒有言論免責權要告可以告我那我必須告訴你們\n你這個就是完全違法嗎?你在那邊跟我說沒有違法?居所他這邊特別提到的是他只要有居住在特定的地域的客觀的事實沒有久住只要他有居住的事實他就是一個居所所以沒有違法你要不要先去問一下律師再回答這個問題我跟你講我在那邊給你上個法學小教室\n住所就是你永久居住的意思居所是你有居住的事實只是沒有久住例如你大學四年住宿舍那個叫做你的居所他要有一個居住的事實存在你今天所以我剛剛請教你過去的三年多快四年\n副總統在那邊住過幾天有住過你不要跟我說住兩天那旅館是不是我的居所我好幾次睡在立法院那立法院是不是我的居所不是說有睡在那個一個晚上兩個晚上那叫做居所你們法律不能這樣亂解釋啊然後你一直對外界對民眾說你叫做依法行政我說真的好我搞不清楚你依什麼法另外我再請教你\n如果是受維安者的住所或居所,你們有沒有裁量權說我不爽,我可以不要去維安?你有沒有裁量權說我可以不去維安?我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來做判斷,要不要維安,對,只有專業的判斷。如果是他的住所,你也可以不要去維安,是不是?一般來講,既然他是住所,是長期居住的,我們就一定要派至我們的維安。好,那我再請教你,那你們憑什麼會來撤掃?\n測哨是什麼原因?第一個他是居所因為有去居住的事實符合剛剛委員列出來居所的相關的法律的判例的解釋沒有我已經跟你說那不叫居所我已經跟你說那不叫居所委員他有居住的事實他就是在我們的居所的第一面我跟你說法律如果可以這樣隨便跟你解釋的話\n那太離譜了啦 法律不能這樣做啦報告局長 你們不能這樣子亂解釋法律那這樣子我哪裡睡過 某一間旅館我睡過也是我的居所我去我爸媽家住一晚也叫我的居所嗎\n我們這會做評估我們這都會做評估只要有維安的需要對於我們維安對象的安全我們可以採取分別的方式局長你要這樣亂解釋法律算了我也不想再跟你爭辯這個點我跟你講這法律這種解釋全台灣念法律的人會聽不下去\n當時為什麼撤掃?撤掃是居所的事實已經出現了改變因為我們的維安對象已經宣布了他不再繼續居住在這個地方他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體的他講一句話他在辯論會的時候講了這句話就可以變成沒有維安的必要我跟你說我這幾天也在看房子我一直想要在台北買一個小房子我看到一間我說的是事實結果\n結果他跟我說突然跟我說不賣我在591看到結果他又跟我說不賣今天你們知不知道依照信託法信託法他必須要主管機關核准要主管機關許可所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可為什麼副總統今天講了一句我要交付公益信託那這個就信託了嗎\n有沒有完成信託是一回事但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所所以我們就撤除了維安的維護就這麼簡單我跟你講啦那個地方不是居所如果是認為是居所你也不能撤不是撤A就是撤B不是撤去那邊維安就是錯了\n撤哨沒有這都是依照兩個就是錯一個所以我真我跟你說啦唉我說一句重話不好意思不要得罪\n公務員是國家的,不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的當然當然千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道並沒有,並沒有,這個不是只有適用在...那沒關係啦,至少我跟你說,至少跟局長說,居所麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說他有在那邊住過幾晚,就叫做居所全國的判決判例重新再來過了啦\n我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來不叫做歷來依法依法你們一直對外說依法行政麻煩要依法不能這樣做有依法行政提供所有的違案對象同等的一個違案待遇不是同等這不是平等原則在談的地方我們現在是談法律是特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所居所就是法律上面的住所居所的定義\n規矩不可以自己亂擴張解釋我剛跟你說法律的居所不是這樣你現在跟我辯論說\n你那個字義再了解一下不是我要了解我做了20幾年的法律人我對這地方很清楚所以我剛剛是麻煩局長、貴局能夠去請教一下律師這個地方是你弄錯了還是我弄錯了什麼叫做居所麻煩你們弄清楚如果照你的那個說法的話我跟你講我們的民法我們的歷年的判決都判錯了\n這部分麻煩你弄清楚後面我再跟你討論全國民眾一直很在乎現場危害人員拿掃除用具的事情我有看過你們的說法但是我必須講一個你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看\n那你們是不是如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事會引起很多不必要的糾紛我們的維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作只有維安的工作那針對這個個案我們特勤中心也有去了解當天的狀況那當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況\n我本來是想要請問一下就是說打掃是屬於什麼違安的行為但是我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦不是完全沒道理但是你們至少跟同仁講不要造成這種誤會嘛對不對我也跟那個委員報告一下你可以在委員螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士他就是一個清潔工人名字我都可以跟你講這我沒有否認所以我沒有我到現在我沒有我沒有去質疑你這個點嘛對不對我一直沒有質疑嘛\n我沒有講這個點我認同你們說的那你們說的如果有道理的情況下是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會我的意思只是這樣剛剛我們提到的那個住所居所得否為安的我跟你講我的立場是這樣我對於法律\n我自己檢察官做20年我後來當法律局長做4年這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律從大學念到現在居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義你不能說以前這樣做對現在就是對沒有這種事情也不是說你對別人這樣做對對賴副總統這樣做就對你是在陷害他你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權分子這不好這會害到賴副總統\n尊重委員的見解\n好啦那我也尊重你剛剛的那個說法啦但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法可不可以兩個禮拜給我一個就是好我們一個書面的說明給我對書面說明瞭解我們的論述的法理的依據謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:19.084\n我們請有請局長請蔡局長局長你好其實我要問的問題我要問的問題其實如果你們同仁有有認真幫你準備的話一定會已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了那很簡單來說\n\n00:21.328 --> 00:43.494\n我今天要問的問題其實很簡單就是這間房子的問題那我想我直接切到議題裡面選舉已經過去了我們都把政治放兩旁我們就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西我一輩子是念法律的那我們就來談什麼叫依法行政請問局長為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安對依照我們的特定條例第幾條\n\n00:47.111 --> 01:05.652\n我請我們特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員請快一點好我們時間很短第12條對不對是好那我來講一下第12條局長第12條我們是可以對於受維安者的駐居所加以維安請問一下這個是住所還是居所還是什麼\n\n01:07.005 --> 01:08.366\n過去四年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上?\n\n01:26.789 --> 01:52.676\n有,他不定期住在這邊,所以才會把他定位為居所他不定期住在,他是住在裡面幾個晚上,你們不可能不知道啊在裡面睡過幾個晚上,你不要跟我說5歲也算,睡過幾個晚上那相關的情資涉及到我們維安對象的作息,我們沒有辦法...好,沒關係,那我告訴你,他們自己也講,他不是住在那個地方好,那我們來看一下,民法第20條是什麼規定的\n\n01:58.058 --> 02:23.985\n來我跟你們說民法第20條講得很清楚一定的事實有久住的意思這個才叫做住所好那我們再來看什麼叫做居所83年抗治2343號另外還有很多個啦我就不講了居所的意思就是你要有居住的事實只是沒有久住的意思比如說我住在宿舍我長期住那裡就是居所那不叫住所\n\n02:24.626 --> 02:31.766\n也就是說今天這個地方根本不符合住所也不叫居所請問一下你們憑什麼去維安\n\n02:32.932 --> 02:55.988\n他確實是按照我們的特勤作業的規劃,不只是針對賴副總統,長期以來我們的維安對象,我們的駐居所的定義,針對居所...不行不行,這樣講,你們一直說你們依法行政,你現在又跟我說,說那一套我聽不進去,法律上面駐所民法20條規定,居所多次的判決判例也都有說明什麼叫居所,\n\n02:56.568 --> 03:17.862\n那你今天針對的這個地方也不是他的名下的房子他偶爾有過去這不叫住所也不叫居所憑什麼國安局可以去做這樣的違安你的依法行政依的是什麼法對我們依的就是我們特定條例把它認定為是違安對象的居所那這樣法律是可以隨便你們這樣子解釋的嗎\n\n03:19.161 --> 03:42.442\n但我們在相關的一個作業的規範大概都是依照這樣的一個那我現在告訴你你們這個就是違法的違安啊因為法律上面完全不合嘛之前沒有人點出來但我念法律的我必須在這邊告訴你我會負完全的責任我從還不是當立委的時候我就一直在主張這個但當時我說我那時候沒有言論免責權要告可以告我那我必須告訴你們\n\n03:43.183 --> 04:07.604\n你這個就是完全違法嗎?你在那邊跟我說沒有違法?居所他這邊特別提到的是他只要有居住在特定的地域的客觀的事實沒有久住只要他有居住的事實他就是一個居所所以沒有違法你要不要先去問一下律師再回答這個問題我跟你講我在那邊給你上個法學小教室\n\n04:08.385 --> 04:26.527\n住所就是你永久居住的意思居所是你有居住的事實只是沒有久住例如你大學四年住宿舍那個叫做你的居所他要有一個居住的事實存在你今天所以我剛剛請教你過去的三年多快四年\n\n04:27.991 --> 04:50.033\n副總統在那邊住過幾天有住過你不要跟我說住兩天那旅館是不是我的居所我好幾次睡在立法院那立法院是不是我的居所不是說有睡在那個一個晚上兩個晚上那叫做居所你們法律不能這樣亂解釋啊然後你一直對外界對民眾說你叫做依法行政我說真的好我搞不清楚你依什麼法另外我再請教你\n\n04:51.420 --> 05:15.067\n如果是受維安者的住所或居所,你們有沒有裁量權說我不爽,我可以不要去維安?你有沒有裁量權說我可以不去維安?我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來做判斷,要不要維安,對,只有專業的判斷。如果是他的住所,你也可以不要去維安,是不是?一般來講,既然他是住所,是長期居住的,我們就一定要派至我們的維安。好,那我再請教你,那你們憑什麼會來撤掃?\n\n05:16.807 --> 05:34.161\n測哨是什麼原因?第一個他是居所因為有去居住的事實符合剛剛委員列出來居所的相關的法律的判例的解釋沒有我已經跟你說那不叫居所我已經跟你說那不叫居所委員他有居住的事實他就是在我們的居所的第一面我跟你說法律如果可以這樣隨便跟你解釋的話\n\n05:35.402 --> 05:47.508\n那太離譜了啦法律不能這樣做啦報告局長你們不能這樣子亂解釋法律那這樣子我哪裡睡過某一間旅館我睡過也是我的居所我去我爸媽家住一晚也叫我的居所嗎\n\n05:48.530 --> 06:04.256\n我們這會做評估我們這都會做評估只要有維安的需要對於我們維安對象的安全我們可以採取分別的方式局長你要這樣亂解釋法律算了我也不想再跟你爭辯這個點我跟你講這法律這種解釋全台灣念法律的人會聽不下去\n\n06:06.877 --> 06:33.273\n當時為什麼撤掃?撤掃是居所的事實已經出現了改變因為我們的維安對象已經宣布了他不再繼續居住在這個地方他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體的他講一句話他在辯論會的時候講了這句話就可以變成沒有維安的必要我跟你說我這幾天也在看房子我一直想要在台北買一個小房子我看到一間我說的是事實結果\n\n06:34.854 --> 06:57.786\n結果他跟我說突然跟我說不賣我在591看到結果他又跟我說不賣今天你們知不知道依照信託法信託法他必須要主管機關核准要主管機關許可所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可為什麼副總統今天講了一句我要交付公益信託那這個就信託了嗎\n\n06:58.803 --> 07:22.294\n有沒有完成信託是一回事但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所所以我們就撤除了維安的維護就這麼簡單我跟你講啦那個地方不是居所如果是認為是居所你也不能撤不是撤A就是撤B不是撤去那邊維安就是錯了\n\n07:23.720 --> 07:31.272\n撤哨沒有這都是依照兩個就是錯一個所以我真我跟你說啦唉我說一句重話不好意思不要得罪\n\n07:33.342 --> 08:00.965\n公務員是國家的,不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的當然當然千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道並沒有,並沒有,這個不是只有適用在...那沒關係啦,至少我跟你說,至少跟局長說,居所麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說他有在那邊住過幾晚,就叫做居所全國的判決判例重新再來過了啦\n\n08:01.585 --> 08:26.757\n我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來不叫做歷來依法依法你們一直對外說依法行政麻煩要依法不能這樣做有依法行政提供所有的違案對象同等的一個違案待遇不是同等這不是平等原則在談的地方我們現在是談法律是特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所居所就是法律上面的住所居所的定義\n\n08:28.138 --> 08:35.799\n規矩不可以自己亂擴張解釋我剛跟你說法律的居所不是這樣你現在跟我辯論說\n\n08:38.088 --> 09:05.162\n你那個字義再了解一下不是我要了解我做了20幾年的法律人我對這地方很清楚所以我剛剛是麻煩局長、貴局能夠去請教一下律師這個地方是你弄錯了還是我弄錯了什麼叫做居所麻煩你們弄清楚如果照你的那個說法的話我跟你講我們的民法我們的歷年的判決都判錯了\n\n09:06.362 --> 09:30.673\n這部分麻煩你弄清楚後面我再跟你討論全國民眾一直很在乎現場危害人員拿掃除用具的事情我有看過你們的說法但是我必須講一個你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看\n\n09:31.974 --> 09:57.582\n那你們是不是如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事會引起很多不必要的糾紛我們的維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作只有維安的工作那針對這個個案我們特勤中心也有去了解當天的狀況那當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況\n\n09:58.758 --> 10:26.138\n我本來是想要請問一下就是說打掃是屬於什麼違安的行為但是我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦不是完全沒道理但是你們至少跟同仁講不要造成這種誤會嘛對不對我也跟那個委員報告一下你可以在委員螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士他就是一個清潔工人名字我都可以跟你講這我沒有否認所以我沒有我到現在我沒有我沒有去質疑你這個點嘛對不對我一直沒有質疑嘛\n\n10:27.258 --> 10:47.164\n我沒有講這個點我認同你們說的那你們說的如果有道理的情況下是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會我的意思只是這樣剛剛我們提到的那個住所居所得否為安的我跟你講我的立場是這樣我對於法律\n\n10:48.064 --> 11:13.591\n我自己檢察官做20年我後來當法律局長做4年這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律從大學念到現在居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義你不能說以前這樣做對現在就是對沒有這種事情也不是說你對別人這樣做對對賴副總統這樣做就對你是在陷害他你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權分子這不好這會害到賴副總統\n\n11:15.231 --> 11:15.791\n尊重委員的見解\n\n11:36.325 --> 11:47.752\n好啦那我也尊重你剛剛的那個說法啦但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法可不可以兩個禮拜給我一個就是好我們一個書面的說明給我對書面說明瞭解我們的論述的法理的依據謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":19.084,"text":"我們請有請局長請蔡局長局長你好其實我要問的問題我要問的問題其實如果你們同仁有有認真幫你準備的話一定會已經知道我要問的問題是什麼了那很簡單來說"},{"start":21.328,"end":43.494,"text":"我今天要問的問題其實很簡單就是這間房子的問題那我想我直接切到議題裡面選舉已經過去了我們都把政治放兩旁我們就談你們一直說的依法行政這個東西我一輩子是念法律的那我們就來談什麼叫依法行政請問局長為什麼可以對這個房子進行維安對依照我們的特定條例第幾條"},{"start":47.111,"end":65.652,"text":"我請我們特勤中心同仁把條文跟委員請快一點好我們時間很短第12條對不對是好那我來講一下第12條局長第12條我們是可以對於受維安者的駐居所加以維安請問一下這個是住所還是居所還是什麼"},{"start":67.005,"end":68.366,"text":"過去四年賴清德副總統在這裡住過幾個晚上?"},{"start":86.789,"end":112.676,"text":"有,他不定期住在這邊,所以才會把他定位為居所他不定期住在,他是住在裡面幾個晚上,你們不可能不知道啊在裡面睡過幾個晚上,你不要跟我說5歲也算,睡過幾個晚上那相關的情資涉及到我們維安對象的作息,我們沒有辦法...好,沒關係,那我告訴你,他們自己也講,他不是住在那個地方好,那我們來看一下,民法第20條是什麼規定的"},{"start":118.058,"end":143.985,"text":"來 我跟你們說 民法第20條講得很清楚一定的事實有久住的意思 這個才叫做住所好 那我們再來看 什麼叫做居所83年抗治2343號 另外還有很多個啦 我就不講了居所的意思就是 你要有居住的事實 只是沒有久住的意思比如說我住在宿舍 我長期住那裡就是居所 那不叫住所"},{"start":144.626,"end":151.766,"text":"也就是說今天這個地方根本不符合住所也不叫居所請問一下你們憑什麼去維安"},{"start":152.932,"end":175.988,"text":"他確實是按照我們的特勤作業的規劃,不只是針對賴副總統,長期以來我們的維安對象,我們的駐居所的定義,針對居所...不行不行,這樣講,你們一直說你們依法行政,你現在又跟我說,說那一套我聽不進去,法律上面駐所民法20條規定,居所多次的判決判例也都有說明什麼叫居所,"},{"start":176.568,"end":197.862,"text":"那你今天針對的這個地方也不是他的名下的房子他偶爾有過去這不叫住所也不叫居所憑什麼國安局可以去做這樣的違安你的依法行政依的是什麼法對我們依的就是我們特定條例把它認定為是違安對象的居所那這樣法律是可以隨便你們這樣子解釋的嗎"},{"start":199.161,"end":222.442,"text":"但我們在相關的一個作業的規範大概都是依照這樣的一個那我現在告訴你你們這個就是違法的違安啊因為法律上面完全不合嘛之前沒有人點出來但我念法律的我必須在這邊告訴你我會負完全的責任我從還不是當立委的時候我就一直在主張這個但當時我說我那時候沒有言論免責權要告可以告我那我必須告訴你們"},{"start":223.183,"end":247.604,"text":"你這個就是完全違法嗎?你在那邊跟我說沒有違法?居所他這邊特別提到的是他只要有居住在特定的地域的客觀的事實沒有久住只要他有居住的事實他就是一個居所所以沒有違法你要不要先去問一下律師再回答這個問題我跟你講我在那邊給你上個法學小教室"},{"start":248.385,"end":266.527,"text":"住所就是你永久居住的意思居所是你有居住的事實只是沒有久住例如你大學四年住宿舍那個叫做你的居所他要有一個居住的事實存在你今天所以我剛剛請教你過去的三年多快四年"},{"start":267.991,"end":290.033,"text":"副總統在那邊住過幾天有住過你不要跟我說住兩天那旅館是不是我的居所我好幾次睡在立法院那立法院是不是我的居所不是說有睡在那個一個晚上兩個晚上那叫做居所你們法律不能這樣亂解釋啊然後你一直對外界對民眾說你叫做依法行政我說真的好我搞不清楚你依什麼法另外我再請教你"},{"start":291.42,"end":315.067,"text":"如果是受維安者的住所或居所,你們有沒有裁量權說我不爽,我可以不要去維安?你有沒有裁量權說我可以不去維安?我們當然會評估相關維安的需求來做判斷,要不要維安,對,只有專業的判斷。如果是他的住所,你也可以不要去維安,是不是?一般來講,既然他是住所,是長期居住的,我們就一定要派至我們的維安。好,那我再請教你,那你們憑什麼會來撤掃?"},{"start":316.807,"end":334.161,"text":"測哨是什麼原因?第一個他是居所因為有去居住的事實符合剛剛委員列出來居所的相關的法律的判例的解釋沒有我已經跟你說那不叫居所我已經跟你說那不叫居所委員他有居住的事實他就是在我們的居所的第一面我跟你說法律如果可以這樣隨便跟你解釋的話"},{"start":335.402,"end":347.508,"text":"那太離譜了啦 法律不能這樣做啦報告局長 你們不能這樣子亂解釋法律那這樣子我哪裡睡過 某一間旅館我睡過也是我的居所我去我爸媽家住一晚也叫我的居所嗎"},{"start":348.53,"end":364.256,"text":"我們這會做評估我們這都會做評估只要有維安的需要對於我們維安對象的安全我們可以採取分別的方式局長你要這樣亂解釋法律算了我也不想再跟你爭辯這個點我跟你講這法律這種解釋全台灣念法律的人會聽不下去"},{"start":366.877,"end":393.273,"text":"當時為什麼撤掃?撤掃是居所的事實已經出現了改變因為我們的維安對象已經宣布了他不再繼續居住在這個地方他要把它捐贈為一個公益團體的他講一句話他在辯論會的時候講了這句話就可以變成沒有維安的必要我跟你說我這幾天也在看房子我一直想要在台北買一個小房子我看到一間我說的是事實結果"},{"start":394.854,"end":417.786,"text":"結果他跟我說突然跟我說不賣我在591看到結果他又跟我說不賣今天你們知不知道依照信託法信託法他必須要主管機關核准要主管機關許可所以公益信託你要先經過主管機關許可為什麼副總統今天講了一句我要交付公益信託那這個就信託了嗎"},{"start":418.803,"end":442.294,"text":"有沒有完成信託是一回事但是我們有確認過副總統認為他以後沒有要繼續居住在這個居所所以我們就撤除了維安的維護就這麼簡單我跟你講啦那個地方不是居所如果是認為是居所你也不能撤不是撤A就是撤B不是撤去那邊維安就是錯了"},{"start":443.72,"end":451.272,"text":"撤哨沒有這都是依照兩個就是錯一個所以我真我跟你說啦唉我說一句重話不好意思不要得罪"},{"start":453.342,"end":480.965,"text":"公務員是國家的,不是屬於特定政黨或特定個人的當然當然千萬不要一本正經的胡說八道並沒有,並沒有,這個不是只有適用在...那沒關係啦,至少我跟你說,至少跟局長說,居所麻煩你們去弄清楚什麼叫做居所如果可以像你們這樣隨隨便便解釋說他有在那邊住過幾晚,就叫做居所全國的判決判例重新再來過了啦"},{"start":481.585,"end":506.757,"text":"我們歷來都是依照這樣的解釋來不叫做歷來依法依法你們一直對外說依法行政麻煩要依法不能這樣做有依法行政提供所有的違案對象同等的一個違案待遇不是同等這不是平等原則在談的地方我們現在是談法律是特種勤務條例裡面說到的住所居所就是法律上面的住所居所的定義"},{"start":508.138,"end":515.799,"text":"規矩不可以自己亂擴張解釋我剛跟你說法律的居所不是這樣你現在跟我辯論說"},{"start":518.088,"end":545.162,"text":"你那個字義再了解一下不是我要了解我做了20幾年的法律人我對這地方很清楚所以我剛剛是麻煩局長、貴局能夠去請教一下律師這個地方是你弄錯了還是我弄錯了什麼叫做居所麻煩你們弄清楚如果照你的那個說法的話我跟你講我們的民法我們的歷年的判決都判錯了"},{"start":546.362,"end":570.673,"text":"這部分麻煩你弄清楚後面我再跟你討論全國民眾一直很在乎現場危害人員拿掃除用具的事情我有看過你們的說法但是我必須講一個你們的說法是說他只是協助掃除人員把東西移走但是很多人都是把這個當笑話看"},{"start":571.974,"end":597.582,"text":"那你們是不是如果今天真的如你們所說的只是協助掃除人員把東西移走那是不是你們以後要去跟同仁講不要做這個事會引起很多不必要的糾紛我們的維安勤務的分配從來沒有打掃的工作只有維安的工作那針對這個個案我們特勤中心也有去了解當天的狀況那當天的狀況就是我們在對外新聞說明的時候所陳述的狀況"},{"start":598.758,"end":626.138,"text":"我本來是想要請問一下就是說打掃是屬於什麼違安的行為但是我說真的我有看過你們的說法啦不是完全沒道理但是你們至少跟同仁講不要造成這種誤會嘛對不對我也跟那個委員報告一下你可以在委員螢幕上面右手邊有一位穿迷仔褲的人士他就是一個清潔工人名字我都可以跟你講這我沒有否認所以我沒有我到現在我沒有我沒有去質疑你這個點嘛對不對我一直沒有質疑嘛"},{"start":627.258,"end":647.164,"text":"我沒有講這個點我認同你們說的那你們說的如果有道理的情況下是不是要避免以後再造成民眾的誤會我的意思只是這樣剛剛我們提到的那個住所居所得否為安的我跟你講我的立場是這樣我對於法律"},{"start":648.064,"end":673.591,"text":"我自己檢察官做20年我後來當法律局長做4年這24年的期間我都一直在碰法律從大學念到現在居所的定義絕對不是你們解釋的這個定義你不能說以前這樣做對現在就是對沒有這種事情也不是說你對別人這樣做對對賴副總統這樣做就對你是在陷害他你這樣讓全民覺得他是特權分子這不好這會害到賴副總統"},{"start":675.231,"end":675.791,"text":"尊重委員的見解"},{"start":696.325,"end":707.752,"text":"好啦那我也尊重你剛剛的那個說法啦但是我跟你說那個說法絕對違法可不可以兩個禮拜給我一個就是好我們一個書面的說明給我對書面說明瞭解我們的論述的法理的依據謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}}}