{"id":149692,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9ce5e25ef4cf43002533fae44902d824ee83bb1dd0927c3df8ba9b0039caa7a61b51977d4a86bfe65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:24:52 - 10:34:58","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2024-03-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-11","duration":606,"end_time":"2024-03-11T10:34:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-11T10:24:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":436,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時25分）謝謝召委，請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，公平會其實大家久久才會見一次，因為其實平常在經濟部、在國發會下，其實公平會相對上沒有那麼地複雜，不過我其實覺得我們的公平會可以扮演更重要的角色，相較於日本、韓國，我認為不是那麼消極地只處理這樣的公平會業務，我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點，讓公平會有更強的一個功能，也更回應社會的期待，臺灣看待執政黨，公平會一樣是執政的一部分，執政的一個角色、政府的角色，所以我希望未來部長能夠更加重這樣的一個功能。","我想今天還是要來談，我之前也開過一個記者會，就針對於NEXON的遊戲，它在韓國的時候偷偷地修改，它甚至沒有公告，所以它被韓國的公平會重罰了116億韓元，相當於 2.75億臺幣，那我想問一下，因為我們臺灣也有代理新楓之谷這個遊戲，那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查，到底我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況？因為這個其實都是很誇張的，因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了，如果你調降它機率的話，有的甚至像韓國那更惡劣的是零的話你怎麼抽也抽不到，那幾乎玩家只要每抽一次它就賺一次，而且是必賺的，這是完全地侵犯到消費者權益，完全不合理，這個政府應該要有所作為，我問一下，主委，開始進行調查了嗎？結果什麼時候會出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們有去瞭解這個案子，它在臺灣是新楓之谷，那個道具跟韓國開罰的道具不太一樣，但是我們仍然立案調查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，一定要調查，我的意思是說這個東西政府要有作為，韓國的政府有韓國政府的作為，臺灣政府當然也有臺灣政府的作為，所以開始有立案調查？"],["李主任委員鎂：已經立案調查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那什麼時候會出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們會看整個狀況，也要蒐集相關的事證，我們會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，給個時間吧！這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來開罰了，然後我們已經經過2個月了，現在3月了，如果它沒問題的話，也讓社會大眾知道、也讓玩家們知道，如果有問題的話也該展現出政府的魄力嘛！多久可以調查出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們儘快來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：儘快是多久？公平會我覺得最可惜就是每次什麼東西都是儘快，但是要展現出效率，人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想儘量在6個月之內把它調查完畢。"],["賴委員瑞隆：6個月太久了，3個月可不可以？這件事情已經不是那個……而且你們要調查也並不困難，請3個月內把它調查完成可以嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：好，我們儘量。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好不好？現在3月了，我希望6月份的時候能夠把這個調查出來，給國人一份報告，韓國已經發生這樣的狀況，重罰了2.75億臺幣這樣的一個金額，我們希望臺灣的代理廠商有沒有能儘快調查出來，有的話該重罰的重罰，沒有的話也讓大家、讓玩家們知道臺灣其實並沒有產生這樣的問題好嗎？好，謝謝，3個月。再來，我想要再講的，上次有關於不實資訊的部分，其實公平會也罰過了兩次，那兩次各罰200萬，那相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況，它站在整個公平的角度、站在保障消費的角度，它給予廠商重罰2.75億，這個絕對是重啦！對他們來說是一點，但是即使如此，對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已，主委，我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話，我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰？"],["李主任委員鎂：整個罰鍰的高低多少在委員會會討論，那對於這種網路機率型遊戲的不實廣告，將來如果查證屬實，我們會朝重罰的方向。"],["賴委員瑞隆：韓國的總統認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了，他認為這是不實地詐欺，確實嘛！坦白講100次不見得會抓得到一、兩次嘛，因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛！但是你抓到了，你有沒有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度、立場在捍衛的？如果有的話，那些業者它就會發現這不能開玩笑，這罰得很重的，我認為臺灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度，這個重罰的上限我記得是2,500萬，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是你們只罰200萬，主委當時的考量是什麼？為什麼不罰重一點？200萬是九牛一毛之九牛一毛，它一天的收入隨便也超過200萬，玩家買的早就超過了，為什麼只罰200萬？大家會不會覺得官方在護著這些業者？"],["李主任委員鎂：像第二家我們罰200萬是因為它跟玩家很迅速地採取一些合理的和解補償機制，有對玩家一一回應這件事情，所以我們在整個案情的考量上……"],["賴委員瑞隆：即使是這樣，主委你看一下後續，很多在網路上參與遊戲的人對政府在這件事情上都是很不滿的，你稍微查一下就知道，非常高的比例非常不滿，因為他們覺得很難抓到，抓到以後輕罰200萬，政府其實是毫無作為的，業者也很輕鬆、沒有壓力啊！它當然沒有壓力啊！抓到也是200萬而已，如果它很強烈地隱匿，甚至更惡劣的有詐欺動機，獲利這麼大，抓到頂多200萬而已，這完全不符合比例，所以我的意思是不要看什麼個人和解，抓到了該要重罰就要重罰。"],["李主任委員鎂：將來任何的不實廣告、案情重大的，我們都會朝比較重罰的方式來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我會持續盯著這個案子，好不好？很多的玩家、特別是年輕世代的玩家，他們不見得會具體讓政府感受到，但是他們的不滿是累積在心中的，政府沒有作為，他們是不滿的，所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力、有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色，好嗎？","我們看一下日本有一個景品表示法，對於不實的廣告部分可以罰獲利的3%，它在法裡面直接定了。公平會的處罰裡面也有提到，考量被處分人的資本額、營業狀況跟遊戲銷售等等也可以處罰，依它的資本額，2022年整個稅後淨利是12.8億，如果照這樣的3%，至少也要重罰3,800萬，但我們的法只到2,500萬，你至少要重罰到2,500萬才可以讓人民感受到、讓業者感受到政府對這樣的隱匿，甚至可能涉及詐欺是非常不滿、非常有意見，並且是跟人民、消費者站在一起的。主委，我希望未來有查到的話，該重罰就給予重罰，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：在罰鍰額度上以及各界的期待，我們在委員會也會充分討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是要提醒，委員會裡面當然要充分討論，但如果任何作為出來跟人民有很大落差的時候，這都是政府要承擔的。委員們一起進來，但是將來的任何作為都是政府要承擔，而主委在裡面應該要陳述清楚，因為你會來國會備詢、你要對人民負責，你會第一線接收對人民負責的感受，所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷地表述清楚。跟委員們溝通輕罰這件事情並不困難，但如果站在消費者的角度、站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰，甚至給予重罰的話，讓業者不敢輕易有一個空間，這其實才符合人民的期待。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想整體罰鍰的提高，我們會來討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：民間甚至提到希望建立轉蛋法，愈來愈多線上遊戲、愈來愈多這些部分，主委認為需要立轉蛋法嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：針對單一產品或遊戲定專法，我覺得可能……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我再次提醒，這件事情的影響跟獲利相當大，是不是要立專法可以來討論，但是我希望政府要有所作為，如果單一事情遲遲無法解決的話，這種聲音就會不斷出現，就像過去我們對黃牛所做的處理，不管是在文創法或鐵道法，做了處理之後就可以解決，法是用來解決問題的，我希望主委要重視這些事情。最後，我有提一個修法把上限拉高到3億元，像這次韓國就罰了2.75億，主委同意這樣的修法建議嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想罰鍰的額度要從整套公平法來權衡，因為聯合行為最高是到5,000萬，我們也去查國內包括食品不實廣告的罰鍰，最高也到2,500萬，所以是不是針對機率型遊戲定為3億可能要再瞭解一下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請主委考慮一下，好不好？特別是針對這種獲利巨大的數位化轉蛋部分，韓國都可以罰到2.75億，如果上限只有2,500萬，再怎麼重罰也只能罰到2,500萬，當然就罰不上去了，我希望主委慎重思考一下，不一定全部納進來，但是要怎樣用這個形式達到我們的期待？萬一違法就重罰，給業者嚇阻力的效果，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝主委。"],["主席：林德福委員、林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","我們請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,243 --> 00:00:00,584\n龍委員發言賴瑞隆\n\n2\n00:00:15,249 --> 00:00:38,644\n大家好公平會其實大家久久才會見一次啦因為其實平常說因為在經濟部在國會下其實公平會相對上沒有那麼的複雜不過我其實覺得我們的公平會其實可以扮演更重要的一個角色相較於日本韓國在我認為不是那麼消極只處理這樣公平的業務我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點\n\n3\n00:01:05,134 --> 00:01:10,343\n偷偷的修改他其實甚至沒有公告所以他被整個韓國的公平會重罰了\n\n4\n00:01:14,820 --> 00:01:39,467\n116億韓元相當於2.75億的臺幣那我想問一下因為我們臺灣也有代理這個新風之國也有代理這個遊戲那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查到底我們有沒有我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況因為這個這個其實都是很誇張的因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了如果你調降他機率的話\n\n5\n00:01:40,507 --> 00:01:57,447\n像有的甚至韓國那更惡劣是0的話你怎麼抽也抽不到那幾乎每每有一個玩家只要每抽一次你就每賺一次而且必賺的這是完全的侵犯到消費者權益完全的不完全不合理齁這個政府應該要有所作為我問一下主委調查開始進行調查了嗎什麼時候會出來\n\n6\n00:01:57,807 --> 00:02:16,505\n跟委員說明我們有去了解這個案子它在台灣是新風之谷那個道具跟韓國開法的那個道具不太一樣但是我們仍然立案調查一定要調查我意思是說這個東西政府要有作為韓國的政府有韓國政府的作為台灣政府當然也有台灣政府的作為\n\n7\n00:02:18,759 --> 00:02:22,500\n所以開始有立案調查那什麼時候會出來我想我們會看整個也要相關的市政主委給個時間吧這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來都開罰了然後我們已經經過了現在3月了經過兩個月了\n\n8\n00:02:36,223 --> 00:02:39,967\n我們盡快來處理公平會我覺得每次最可惜是什麼東西都是盡快但是展現出效率人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的\n\n9\n00:02:56,463 --> 00:02:56,843\n韓國已經發生這樣狀況重罰\n\n10\n00:03:17,389 --> 00:03:17,649\n兩次各罰兩百萬\n\n11\n00:03:44,603 --> 00:04:02,217\n相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況：他站在整個公平的角度：站在保障消費的角度：他給予廠商重罰2.75億：這個絕對是重：對他們來產生影響：但是即使如此的話：對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已\n\n12\n00:04:02,964 --> 00:04:09,428\n部長我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰這是整個罰環的高低多少在委員會會討論那對於這種網路激勵型遊戲的這個不是廣告將來如果查證屬實我們會朝重罰的方向\n\n13\n00:04:23,736 --> 00:04:51,889\n韓國的總統是用他認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了他認為這是在不時的去詐欺確實嘛你根本就不見了坦白講啦一百次不見得會抓到一兩次嘛因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛但是你抓到了你有沒有政府有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度的立場在捍衛的如果有的話那些業者他就會發現喔這開玩笑這這不能開玩笑這一法道很重的\n\n14\n00:04:52,809 --> 00:05:11,844\n我認為台灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度你可以這個重罰的上限我記得是2500萬嘛對不對但是你們只罰了200萬主委當時的考量是什麼為什麼不給予罰重一點200萬九牛一毛是九牛一毛那一天大概一天隨便也超過他的200萬\n\n15\n00:05:38,846 --> 00:05:46,236\n主委,你看一下後面啦,所有的網路上面有在參與這件事情,其實很多人都說很不滿的。對政府在這件事情上,你要稍微去查一下就知道。\n\n16\n00:05:47,321 --> 00:06:06,249\n非常高的比例非常的不滿因為他覺得你很難抓到抓到以後輕罰兩百萬政府其實毫無作為的他也很輕鬆啊業者沒有壓力啊他當然沒有壓力啊你抓到也是兩百萬而已嘛我當然有很強烈的去隱匿甚至很強烈的甚至於更惡劣的是詐欺的動機嘛獲利這麼的大抓到頂多兩百萬而已\n\n17\n00:06:10,692 --> 00:06:35,553\n這完全不符合比例所以我意思說不要看那個什麼個人和解的抓到了就該要重罰就該要重罰我會持續盯著這個案子好不好很多的玩家特別是年輕世代的玩家他們不見得會具體的讓你政府感受到但是他們的不滿其實是累積在心中的他們是不滿的政府沒有作為他們是不滿的\n\n18\n00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:49,091\n所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色好嗎好我們來看一下日本有一個叫錦平表示法他對於不實的廣告不實那部分可以罰獲利的3%\n\n19\n00:06:52,731 --> 00:07:07,890\n他在法院直接定的那公平會的處罰裡面有提到考量被被處分人的資本額營業狀況跟銷售遊戲的等等也可以處罰以他的資本額的話如果照他2022年的整個近\n\n20\n00:07:09,992 --> 00:07:35,549\n這個稅後的淨利的話12.8億如果照這樣的3%至少重罰也要3800萬3800萬我們的法制到2500萬你至少要重罰到2500萬才可以讓人民感受到說讓業者感到說我政府對這件事情確實是對於你們這樣的隱匿對你們甚至可能涉及到炸機是非常的不滿非常有意見跟人民跟消費者站在一起的所以我希望如果未來有查到的話該重罰就可以重罰好嗎\n\n21\n00:07:36,397 --> 00:07:48,662\n在這個法環的額度上那各界的期待我們在委員會也會充分來討論我還是要提醒喔委員會裡面當然充分來討論但是如果任何的作為出來跟人民有很大的落差的時候這個都是政府要去承擔的\n\n22\n00:07:49,887 --> 00:08:16,910\n委員們一起進來但是將來有任何的作為都是政府要承擔而主委在這裡面應該要陳述清楚因為你會來到國會會被被詢因為你要對人民來負責你會第一線的接受到人民的一個負責的感受所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷的要去表述清楚不然要去跟委員們溝通、輕罰這件事情並不困難嘛但如果站在消費者的角度站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰甚至給予重罰的話\n\n23\n00:08:18,613 --> 00:08:34,347\n讓不敢有輕易的一個空間的話這個其實才是符合人民的期待我想整體法環的提到這部分我們會裡面會來民間也有在提到甚至希望建立轉彈法越來越多的線上遊戲越來越多的這種的部分主委認為需要來立轉彈法嗎針對一個單一的\n\n24\n00:08:48,168 --> 00:08:58,840\n我再次提醒這件事情的它的影響跟獲利其實相當的大是不是要立專法這個可以來討論但是我希望政府要有所作為如果辦議的事情遲遲無法解決的話\n\n25\n00:09:21,479 --> 00:09:21,499\n﹚廣告\n\n26\n00:09:38,503 --> 00:10:02,549\n請主委去考慮一下好不好就對於他的特別是那種蘇維化的轉蛋的部分他的獲利巨大的時候韓國都可以罰到2.75億如果你的上限只有2500萬再怎麼罰想要中我罰只給我2500萬當然就罰不上去了我希望主委慎重思考一下怎麼樣的來不一定全部拿進來但是怎麼樣用這個這個形式達到我們期待如果萬一他違法重罰給業者賀足利的效果好不好好謝謝主委好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n243\t584\t龍委員發言賴瑞隆\n15249\t38644\t大家好公平會其實大家久久才會見一次啦因為其實平常說因為在經濟部在國會下其實公平會相對上沒有那麼的複雜不過我其實覺得我們的公平會其實可以扮演更重要的一個角色相較於日本韓國在我認為不是那麼消極只處理這樣公平的業務我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點\n40725\t64514\t韓國時﹗\n65134\t70343\t偷偷的修改他其實甚至沒有公告所以他被整個韓國的公平會重罰了\n74820\t99467\t116億韓元相當於2.75億的臺幣那我想問一下因為我們臺灣也有代理這個新風之國也有代理這個遊戲那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查到底我們有沒有我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況因為這個這個其實都是很誇張的因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了如果你調降他機率的話\n100507\t117447\t像有的甚至韓國那更惡劣是0的話你怎麼抽也抽不到那幾乎每每有一個玩家只要每抽一次你就每賺一次而且必賺的這是完全的侵犯到消費者權益完全的不完全不合理齁這個政府應該要有所作為我問一下主委調查開始進行調查了嗎什麼時候會出來\n117807\t136505\t跟委員說明我們有去了解這個案子它在台灣是新風之谷那個道具跟韓國開法的那個道具不太一樣但是我們仍然立案調查一定要調查我意思是說這個東西政府要有作為韓國的政府有韓國政府的作為台灣政府當然也有台灣政府的作為\n138759\t142500\t所以開始有立案調查那什麼時候會出來我想我們會看整個也要相關的市政主委給個時間吧這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來都開罰了然後我們已經經過了現在3月了經過兩個月了\n156223\t159967\t我們盡快來處理公平會我覺得每次最可惜是什麼東西都是盡快但是展現出效率人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的\n176463\t176843\t韓國已經發生這樣狀況重罰\n197389\t197649\t兩次各罰兩百萬\n224603\t242217\t相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況：他站在整個公平的角度：站在保障消費的角度：他給予廠商重罰2.75億：這個絕對是重：對他們來產生影響：但是即使如此的話：對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已\n242964\t249428\t部長我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰這是整個罰環的高低多少在委員會會討論那對於這種網路激勵型遊戲的這個不是廣告將來如果查證屬實我們會朝重罰的方向\n263736\t291889\t韓國的總統是用他認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了他認為這是在不時的去詐欺確實嘛你根本就不見了坦白講啦一百次不見得會抓到一兩次嘛因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛但是你抓到了你有沒有政府有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度的立場在捍衛的如果有的話那些業者他就會發現喔這開玩笑這這不能開玩笑這一法道很重的\n292809\t311844\t我認為台灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度你可以這個重罰的上限我記得是2500萬嘛對不對但是你們只罰了200萬主委當時的考量是什麼為什麼不給予罰重一點200萬九牛一毛是九牛一毛那一天大概一天隨便也超過他的200萬\n313217\t329394\t⋯⋯⋯\n338846\t346236\t主委,你看一下後面啦,所有的網路上面有在參與這件事情,其實很多人都說很不滿的。對政府在這件事情上,你要稍微去查一下就知道。\n347321\t366249\t非常高的比例 非常的不滿 因為他覺得你很難抓到 抓到以後輕罰兩百萬政府其實毫無作為的 他也很輕鬆啊 業者沒有壓力啊 他當然沒有壓力啊你抓到也是兩百萬而已嘛 我當然有很強烈的去隱匿甚至很強烈的 甚至於更惡劣的是詐欺的動機嘛 獲利這麼的大 抓到頂多兩百萬而已\n370692\t395553\t這完全不符合比例所以我意思說不要看那個什麼個人和解的抓到了就該要重罰就該要重罰我會持續盯著這個案子好不好很多的玩家特別是年輕世代的玩家他們不見得會具體的讓你政府感受到但是他們的不滿其實是累積在心中的他們是不滿的政府沒有作為他們是不滿的\n396900\t409091\t所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色好嗎好我們來看一下日本有一個叫錦平表示法他對於不實的廣告不實那部分可以罰獲利的3%\n412731\t427890\t他在法院直接定的那公平會的處罰裡面有提到考量被被處分人的資本額營業狀況跟銷售遊戲的等等也可以處罰以他的資本額的話如果照他2022年的整個近\n429992\t455549\t這個稅後的淨利的話12.8億如果照這樣的3%至少重罰也要3800萬3800萬我們的法制到2500萬你至少要重罰到2500萬才可以讓人民感受到說讓業者感到說我政府對這件事情確實是對於你們這樣的隱匿對你們甚至可能涉及到炸機是非常的不滿非常有意見跟人民跟消費者站在一起的所以我希望如果未來有查到的話該重罰就可以重罰好嗎\n456397\t468662\t在這個法環的額度上那各界的期待我們在委員會也會充分來討論我還是要提醒喔委員會裡面當然充分來討論但是如果任何的作為出來跟人民有很大的落差的時候這個都是政府要去承擔的\n469887\t496910\t委員們一起進來但是將來有任何的作為都是政府要承擔而主委在這裡面應該要陳述清楚因為你會來到國會會被被詢因為你要對人民來負責你會第一線的接受到人民的一個負責的感受所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷的要去表述清楚不然要去跟委員們溝通、輕罰這件事情並不困難嘛但如果站在消費者的角度站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰甚至給予重罰的話\n498613\t514347\t讓不敢有輕易的一個空間的話這個其實才是符合人民的期待我想整體法環的提到這部分我們會裡面會來民間也有在提到甚至希望建立轉彈法越來越多的線上遊戲越來越多的這種的部分主委認為需要來立轉彈法嗎針對一個單一的\n528168\t538840\t我再次提醒這件事情的它的影響跟獲利其實相當的大是不是要立專法這個可以來討論但是我希望政府要有所作為如果辦議的事情遲遲無法解決的話\n539701\t561015\t⋯⋯⋯\n561479\t561499\t﹚廣告\n578503\t602549\t請主委去考慮一下好不好就對於他的特別是那種蘇維化的轉蛋的部分他的獲利巨大的時候韓國都可以罰到2.75億如果你的上限只有2500萬再怎麼罰想要中我罰只給我2500萬當然就罰不上去了我希望主委慎重思考一下怎麼樣的來不一定全部拿進來但是怎麼樣用這個這個形式達到我們期待如果萬一他違法重罰給業者賀足利的效果好不好好謝謝主委好謝謝\n","txt":"龍委員發言賴瑞隆\n大家好公平會其實大家久久才會見一次啦因為其實平常說因為在經濟部在國會下其實公平會相對上沒有那麼的複雜不過我其實覺得我們的公平會其實可以扮演更重要的一個角色相較於日本韓國在我認為不是那麼消極只處理這樣公平的業務我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點\n韓國時﹗\n偷偷的修改他其實甚至沒有公告所以他被整個韓國的公平會重罰了\n116億韓元相當於2.75億的臺幣那我想問一下因為我們臺灣也有代理這個新風之國也有代理這個遊戲那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查到底我們有沒有我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況因為這個這個其實都是很誇張的因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了如果你調降他機率的話\n像有的甚至韓國那更惡劣是0的話你怎麼抽也抽不到那幾乎每每有一個玩家只要每抽一次你就每賺一次而且必賺的這是完全的侵犯到消費者權益完全的不完全不合理齁這個政府應該要有所作為我問一下主委調查開始進行調查了嗎什麼時候會出來\n跟委員說明我們有去了解這個案子它在台灣是新風之谷那個道具跟韓國開法的那個道具不太一樣但是我們仍然立案調查一定要調查我意思是說這個東西政府要有作為韓國的政府有韓國政府的作為台灣政府當然也有台灣政府的作為\n所以開始有立案調查那什麼時候會出來我想我們會看整個也要相關的市政主委給個時間吧這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來都開罰了然後我們已經經過了現在3月了經過兩個月了\n我們盡快來處理公平會我覺得每次最可惜是什麼東西都是盡快但是展現出效率人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的\n韓國已經發生這樣狀況重罰\n兩次各罰兩百萬\n相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況：他站在整個公平的角度：站在保障消費的角度：他給予廠商重罰2.75億：這個絕對是重：對他們來產生影響：但是即使如此的話：對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已\n部長我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰這是整個罰環的高低多少在委員會會討論那對於這種網路激勵型遊戲的這個不是廣告將來如果查證屬實我們會朝重罰的方向\n韓國的總統是用他認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了他認為這是在不時的去詐欺確實嘛你根本就不見了坦白講啦一百次不見得會抓到一兩次嘛因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛但是你抓到了你有沒有政府有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度的立場在捍衛的如果有的話那些業者他就會發現喔這開玩笑這這不能開玩笑這一法道很重的\n我認為台灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度你可以這個重罰的上限我記得是2500萬嘛對不對但是你們只罰了200萬主委當時的考量是什麼為什麼不給予罰重一點200萬九牛一毛是九牛一毛那一天大概一天隨便也超過他的200萬\n⋯⋯⋯\n主委,你看一下後面啦,所有的網路上面有在參與這件事情,其實很多人都說很不滿的。對政府在這件事情上,你要稍微去查一下就知道。\n非常高的比例 非常的不滿 因為他覺得你很難抓到 抓到以後輕罰兩百萬政府其實毫無作為的 他也很輕鬆啊 業者沒有壓力啊 他當然沒有壓力啊你抓到也是兩百萬而已嘛 我當然有很強烈的去隱匿甚至很強烈的 甚至於更惡劣的是詐欺的動機嘛 獲利這麼的大 抓到頂多兩百萬而已\n這完全不符合比例所以我意思說不要看那個什麼個人和解的抓到了就該要重罰就該要重罰我會持續盯著這個案子好不好很多的玩家特別是年輕世代的玩家他們不見得會具體的讓你政府感受到但是他們的不滿其實是累積在心中的他們是不滿的政府沒有作為他們是不滿的\n所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色好嗎好我們來看一下日本有一個叫錦平表示法他對於不實的廣告不實那部分可以罰獲利的3%\n他在法院直接定的那公平會的處罰裡面有提到考量被被處分人的資本額營業狀況跟銷售遊戲的等等也可以處罰以他的資本額的話如果照他2022年的整個近\n這個稅後的淨利的話12.8億如果照這樣的3%至少重罰也要3800萬3800萬我們的法制到2500萬你至少要重罰到2500萬才可以讓人民感受到說讓業者感到說我政府對這件事情確實是對於你們這樣的隱匿對你們甚至可能涉及到炸機是非常的不滿非常有意見跟人民跟消費者站在一起的所以我希望如果未來有查到的話該重罰就可以重罰好嗎\n在這個法環的額度上那各界的期待我們在委員會也會充分來討論我還是要提醒喔委員會裡面當然充分來討論但是如果任何的作為出來跟人民有很大的落差的時候這個都是政府要去承擔的\n委員們一起進來但是將來有任何的作為都是政府要承擔而主委在這裡面應該要陳述清楚因為你會來到國會會被被詢因為你要對人民來負責你會第一線的接受到人民的一個負責的感受所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷的要去表述清楚不然要去跟委員們溝通、輕罰這件事情並不困難嘛但如果站在消費者的角度站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰甚至給予重罰的話\n讓不敢有輕易的一個空間的話這個其實才是符合人民的期待我想整體法環的提到這部分我們會裡面會來民間也有在提到甚至希望建立轉彈法越來越多的線上遊戲越來越多的這種的部分主委認為需要來立轉彈法嗎針對一個單一的\n我再次提醒這件事情的它的影響跟獲利其實相當的大是不是要立專法這個可以來討論但是我希望政府要有所作為如果辦議的事情遲遲無法解決的話\n⋯⋯⋯\n﹚廣告\n請主委去考慮一下好不好就對於他的特別是那種蘇維化的轉蛋的部分他的獲利巨大的時候韓國都可以罰到2.75億如果你的上限只有2500萬再怎麼罰想要中我罰只給我2500萬當然就罰不上去了我希望主委慎重思考一下怎麼樣的來不一定全部拿進來但是怎麼樣用這個這個形式達到我們期待如果萬一他違法重罰給業者賀足利的效果好不好好謝謝主委好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.243 --> 00:00.584\n龍委員發言賴瑞隆\n\n00:15.249 --> 00:38.644\n大家好公平會其實大家久久才會見一次啦因為其實平常說因為在經濟部在國會下其實公平會相對上沒有那麼的複雜不過我其實覺得我們的公平會其實可以扮演更重要的一個角色相較於日本韓國在我認為不是那麼消極只處理這樣公平的業務我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點\n\n01:05.134 --> 01:10.343\n偷偷的修改他其實甚至沒有公告所以他被整個韓國的公平會重罰了\n\n01:14.820 --> 01:39.467\n116億韓元相當於2.75億的臺幣那我想問一下因為我們臺灣也有代理這個新風之國也有代理這個遊戲那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查到底我們有沒有我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況因為這個這個其實都是很誇張的因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了如果你調降他機率的話\n\n01:40.507 --> 01:57.447\n像有的甚至韓國那更惡劣是0的話你怎麼抽也抽不到那幾乎每每有一個玩家只要每抽一次你就每賺一次而且必賺的這是完全的侵犯到消費者權益完全的不完全不合理齁這個政府應該要有所作為我問一下主委調查開始進行調查了嗎什麼時候會出來\n\n01:57.807 --> 02:16.505\n跟委員說明我們有去了解這個案子它在台灣是新風之谷那個道具跟韓國開法的那個道具不太一樣但是我們仍然立案調查一定要調查我意思是說這個東西政府要有作為韓國的政府有韓國政府的作為台灣政府當然也有台灣政府的作為\n\n02:18.759 --> 02:22.500\n所以開始有立案調查那什麼時候會出來我想我們會看整個也要相關的市政主委給個時間吧這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來都開罰了然後我們已經經過了現在3月了經過兩個月了\n\n02:36.223 --> 02:39.967\n我們盡快來處理公平會我覺得每次最可惜是什麼東西都是盡快但是展現出效率人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的\n\n02:56.463 --> 02:56.843\n韓國已經發生這樣狀況重罰\n\n03:17.389 --> 03:17.649\n兩次各罰兩百萬\n\n03:44.603 --> 04:02.217\n相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況：他站在整個公平的角度：站在保障消費的角度：他給予廠商重罰2.75億：這個絕對是重：對他們來產生影響：但是即使如此的話：對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已\n\n04:02.964 --> 04:09.428\n部長我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰這是整個罰環的高低多少在委員會會討論那對於這種網路激勵型遊戲的這個不是廣告將來如果查證屬實我們會朝重罰的方向\n\n04:23.736 --> 04:51.889\n韓國的總統是用他認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了他認為這是在不時的去詐欺確實嘛你根本就不見了坦白講啦一百次不見得會抓到一兩次嘛因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛但是你抓到了你有沒有政府有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度的立場在捍衛的如果有的話那些業者他就會發現喔這開玩笑這這不能開玩笑這一法道很重的\n\n04:52.809 --> 05:11.844\n我認為台灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度你可以這個重罰的上限我記得是2500萬嘛對不對但是你們只罰了200萬主委當時的考量是什麼為什麼不給予罰重一點200萬九牛一毛是九牛一毛那一天大概一天隨便也超過他的200萬\n\n05:38.846 --> 05:46.236\n主委,你看一下後面啦,所有的網路上面有在參與這件事情,其實很多人都說很不滿的。對政府在這件事情上,你要稍微去查一下就知道。\n\n05:47.321 --> 06:06.249\n非常高的比例非常的不滿因為他覺得你很難抓到抓到以後輕罰兩百萬政府其實毫無作為的他也很輕鬆啊業者沒有壓力啊他當然沒有壓力啊你抓到也是兩百萬而已嘛我當然有很強烈的去隱匿甚至很強烈的甚至於更惡劣的是詐欺的動機嘛獲利這麼的大抓到頂多兩百萬而已\n\n06:10.692 --> 06:35.553\n這完全不符合比例所以我意思說不要看那個什麼個人和解的抓到了就該要重罰就該要重罰我會持續盯著這個案子好不好很多的玩家特別是年輕世代的玩家他們不見得會具體的讓你政府感受到但是他們的不滿其實是累積在心中的他們是不滿的政府沒有作為他們是不滿的\n\n06:36.900 --> 06:49.091\n所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色好嗎好我們來看一下日本有一個叫錦平表示法他對於不實的廣告不實那部分可以罰獲利的3%\n\n06:52.731 --> 07:07.890\n他在法院直接定的那公平會的處罰裡面有提到考量被被處分人的資本額營業狀況跟銷售遊戲的等等也可以處罰以他的資本額的話如果照他2022年的整個近\n\n07:09.992 --> 07:35.549\n這個稅後的淨利的話12.8億如果照這樣的3%至少重罰也要3800萬3800萬我們的法制到2500萬你至少要重罰到2500萬才可以讓人民感受到說讓業者感到說我政府對這件事情確實是對於你們這樣的隱匿對你們甚至可能涉及到炸機是非常的不滿非常有意見跟人民跟消費者站在一起的所以我希望如果未來有查到的話該重罰就可以重罰好嗎\n\n07:36.397 --> 07:48.662\n在這個法環的額度上那各界的期待我們在委員會也會充分來討論我還是要提醒喔委員會裡面當然充分來討論但是如果任何的作為出來跟人民有很大的落差的時候這個都是政府要去承擔的\n\n07:49.887 --> 08:16.910\n委員們一起進來但是將來有任何的作為都是政府要承擔而主委在這裡面應該要陳述清楚因為你會來到國會會被被詢因為你要對人民來負責你會第一線的接受到人民的一個負責的感受所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷的要去表述清楚不然要去跟委員們溝通、輕罰這件事情並不困難嘛但如果站在消費者的角度站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰甚至給予重罰的話\n\n08:18.613 --> 08:34.347\n讓不敢有輕易的一個空間的話這個其實才是符合人民的期待我想整體法環的提到這部分我們會裡面會來民間也有在提到甚至希望建立轉彈法越來越多的線上遊戲越來越多的這種的部分主委認為需要來立轉彈法嗎針對一個單一的\n\n08:48.168 --> 08:58.840\n我再次提醒這件事情的它的影響跟獲利其實相當的大是不是要立專法這個可以來討論但是我希望政府要有所作為如果辦議的事情遲遲無法解決的話\n\n09:21.479 --> 09:21.499\n﹚廣告\n\n09:38.503 --> 10:02.549\n請主委去考慮一下好不好就對於他的特別是那種蘇維化的轉蛋的部分他的獲利巨大的時候韓國都可以罰到2.75億如果你的上限只有2500萬再怎麼罰想要中我罰只給我2500萬當然就罰不上去了我希望主委慎重思考一下怎麼樣的來不一定全部拿進來但是怎麼樣用這個這個形式達到我們期待如果萬一他違法重罰給業者賀足利的效果好不好好謝謝主委好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.243,"end":0.584,"text":"龍委員發言賴瑞隆"},{"start":15.249,"end":38.644,"text":"大家好公平會其實大家久久才會見一次啦因為其實平常說因為在經濟部在國會下其實公平會相對上沒有那麼的複雜不過我其實覺得我們的公平會其實可以扮演更重要的一個角色相較於日本韓國在我認為不是那麼消極只處理這樣公平的業務我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點"},{"start":40.725,"end":64.514,"text":"韓國時﹗"},{"start":65.134,"end":70.343,"text":"偷偷的修改他其實甚至沒有公告所以他被整個韓國的公平會重罰了"},{"start":74.82,"end":99.467,"text":"116億韓元相當於2.75億的臺幣那我想問一下因為我們臺灣也有代理這個新風之國也有代理這個遊戲那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查到底我們有沒有我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況因為這個這個其實都是很誇張的因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了如果你調降他機率的話"},{"start":100.507,"end":117.447,"text":"像有的甚至韓國那更惡劣是0的話你怎麼抽也抽不到那幾乎每每有一個玩家只要每抽一次你就每賺一次而且必賺的這是完全的侵犯到消費者權益完全的不完全不合理齁這個政府應該要有所作為我問一下主委調查開始進行調查了嗎什麼時候會出來"},{"start":117.807,"end":136.505,"text":"跟委員說明我們有去了解這個案子它在台灣是新風之谷那個道具跟韓國開法的那個道具不太一樣但是我們仍然立案調查一定要調查我意思是說這個東西政府要有作為韓國的政府有韓國政府的作為台灣政府當然也有台灣政府的作為"},{"start":138.759,"end":142.5,"text":"所以開始有立案調查那什麼時候會出來我想我們會看整個也要相關的市政主委給個時間吧這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來都開罰了然後我們已經經過了現在3月了經過兩個月了"},{"start":156.223,"end":159.967,"text":"我們盡快來處理公平會我覺得每次最可惜是什麼東西都是盡快但是展現出效率人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的"},{"start":176.463,"end":176.843,"text":"韓國已經發生這樣狀況重罰"},{"start":197.389,"end":197.649,"text":"兩次各罰兩百萬"},{"start":224.603,"end":242.217,"text":"相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況：他站在整個公平的角度：站在保障消費的角度：他給予廠商重罰2.75億：這個絕對是重：對他們來產生影響：但是即使如此的話：對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已"},{"start":242.964,"end":249.428,"text":"部長我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰這是整個罰環的高低多少在委員會會討論那對於這種網路激勵型遊戲的這個不是廣告將來如果查證屬實我們會朝重罰的方向"},{"start":263.736,"end":291.889,"text":"韓國的總統是用他認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了他認為這是在不時的去詐欺確實嘛你根本就不見了坦白講啦一百次不見得會抓到一兩次嘛因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛但是你抓到了你有沒有政府有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度的立場在捍衛的如果有的話那些業者他就會發現喔這開玩笑這這不能開玩笑這一法道很重的"},{"start":292.809,"end":311.844,"text":"我認為台灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度你可以這個重罰的上限我記得是2500萬嘛對不對但是你們只罰了200萬主委當時的考量是什麼為什麼不給予罰重一點200萬九牛一毛是九牛一毛那一天大概一天隨便也超過他的200萬"},{"start":313.217,"end":329.394,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":338.846,"end":346.236,"text":"主委,你看一下後面啦,所有的網路上面有在參與這件事情,其實很多人都說很不滿的。對政府在這件事情上,你要稍微去查一下就知道。"},{"start":347.321,"end":366.249,"text":"非常高的比例 非常的不滿 因為他覺得你很難抓到 抓到以後輕罰兩百萬政府其實毫無作為的 他也很輕鬆啊 業者沒有壓力啊 他當然沒有壓力啊你抓到也是兩百萬而已嘛 我當然有很強烈的去隱匿甚至很強烈的 甚至於更惡劣的是詐欺的動機嘛 獲利這麼的大 抓到頂多兩百萬而已"},{"start":370.692,"end":395.553,"text":"這完全不符合比例所以我意思說不要看那個什麼個人和解的抓到了就該要重罰就該要重罰我會持續盯著這個案子好不好很多的玩家特別是年輕世代的玩家他們不見得會具體的讓你政府感受到但是他們的不滿其實是累積在心中的他們是不滿的政府沒有作為他們是不滿的"},{"start":396.9,"end":409.091,"text":"所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色好嗎好我們來看一下日本有一個叫錦平表示法他對於不實的廣告不實那部分可以罰獲利的3%"},{"start":412.731,"end":427.89,"text":"他在法院直接定的那公平會的處罰裡面有提到考量被被處分人的資本額營業狀況跟銷售遊戲的等等也可以處罰以他的資本額的話如果照他2022年的整個近"},{"start":429.992,"end":455.549,"text":"這個稅後的淨利的話12.8億如果照這樣的3%至少重罰也要3800萬3800萬我們的法制到2500萬你至少要重罰到2500萬才可以讓人民感受到說讓業者感到說我政府對這件事情確實是對於你們這樣的隱匿對你們甚至可能涉及到炸機是非常的不滿非常有意見跟人民跟消費者站在一起的所以我希望如果未來有查到的話該重罰就可以重罰好嗎"},{"start":456.397,"end":468.662,"text":"在這個法環的額度上那各界的期待我們在委員會也會充分來討論我還是要提醒喔委員會裡面當然充分來討論但是如果任何的作為出來跟人民有很大的落差的時候這個都是政府要去承擔的"},{"start":469.887,"end":496.91,"text":"委員們一起進來但是將來有任何的作為都是政府要承擔而主委在這裡面應該要陳述清楚因為你會來到國會會被被詢因為你要對人民來負責你會第一線的接受到人民的一個負責的感受所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷的要去表述清楚不然要去跟委員們溝通、輕罰這件事情並不困難嘛但如果站在消費者的角度站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰甚至給予重罰的話"},{"start":498.613,"end":514.347,"text":"讓不敢有輕易的一個空間的話這個其實才是符合人民的期待我想整體法環的提到這部分我們會裡面會來民間也有在提到甚至希望建立轉彈法越來越多的線上遊戲越來越多的這種的部分主委認為需要來立轉彈法嗎針對一個單一的"},{"start":528.168,"end":538.84,"text":"我再次提醒這件事情的它的影響跟獲利其實相當的大是不是要立專法這個可以來討論但是我希望政府要有所作為如果辦議的事情遲遲無法解決的話"},{"start":539.701,"end":561.015,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":561.479,"end":561.499,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":578.503,"end":602.549,"text":"請主委去考慮一下好不好就對於他的特別是那種蘇維化的轉蛋的部分他的獲利巨大的時候韓國都可以罰到2.75億如果你的上限只有2500萬再怎麼罰想要中我罰只給我2500萬當然就罰不上去了我希望主委慎重思考一下怎麼樣的來不一定全部拿進來但是怎麼樣用這個這個形式達到我們期待如果萬一他違法重罰給業者賀足利的效果好不好好謝謝主委好謝謝"}]}}}}