{"id":149712,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149712","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a2938cd0a91878369495d04b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a6e3de8b0d8230918a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:16:56 - 09:32:37","影片長度":"00:15:41","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":941,"end_time":"2024-03-12T09:32:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T09:16:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":58,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（9時17分）院長早安，有請陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：范委員早，恭喜你當選連任。"],["范委員雲：院長早安。今天的主題是如何建構一個真正平等、沒有歧視的社會。首先我要謝謝院長大仁哥，您真的是溫暖內閣，我看到您已經有一個很重要的貢獻，就是上次記得我總質詢的時候讓無家者在我們的議場現身，您看到之後，我們也討論了相關的問題，您當時就立刻承諾我們的社會救助法真的需要好好地修，衛福部也承諾在今年5月會提出。雖然您一直不願意繼續擔任我們的院長，但我相信、希望也能在您卸任前提出，我想這是一個非常重要的、溫暖的法案，它會接住我們的貧窮人口，因為過去設下了太多的重重障礙。所以我謝謝大仁哥，讓我們一起打造這個溫暖的社會，也希望院長監督衛福部提出來的草案要能夠讓大家滿意。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我一定會努力來請他們即時提出。我也要跟委員報告，新舊內閣一定是無縫接軌。"],["范委員雲：好，我也期待無縫接軌，所以今天有一個新的議題，也希望溫暖內閣大仁哥可以關注。我想陳俊翰律師的離開非常地突然……"],["陳院長建仁：我們都不捨。"],["范委員雲：大家都非常地遺憾跟難過，我去年認識他，也非常地敬佩他，因為很多人說、我想他也是臺灣的霍金，他擁有美國雙重的法律、會計執照。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["范委員雲：我聽到他母親說，他其實有機會跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作，但是他選擇回臺灣，就是希望為臺灣的人權努力，雖然我們在罕病的醫療資源、無障礙環境其實都不如國外。他離開之後，我們看到蔡總統特別給他褒忠令，蔡總統說：「他離世是臺灣社會的巨大損失，俊翰的志業就交給我們繼續來實現。」這是蔡總統講的。我們賴清德副總統、未來的總統也說：「落實俊翰理想、抱負，將持續實踐他推動的法案。」所以我想不管是現任或者是下一個行政院、下一個內閣，包含我們立法委員，這是我組成的超過10位，有12位為下一代而戰的國會連線，我們在開記者會前一天突然知道他離世，我們也非常難過，我們也說會記住他是我們一起的候選人，我們一起努力，完成他的遺志。不管是蔡總統、未來的賴總統，還有我們的立委都說要繼承陳俊翰律師的遺志，但是今天就想跟院長討論，到底我們如何繼承他的遺志。這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒影像，讓他繼續在我們這兒現身。","（播放影片）"],["范委員雲：我想院長看了這一段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧，他說他在國外讀書的經驗，發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看，回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家，今天他放棄了國外的工作機會，回到對他個人很不利的環境，所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家，不把障礙者當人看？","我們就回來看，臺灣有多少障礙者，不知道院長知不知道？"],["陳院長建仁：大概有上百萬，看他嚴重的程度有不同。"],["范委員雲：對，依據政府的統計有120萬，這個不包括像我母親，她是因為老化出門要用輪椅，所以這種輪椅的老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就有120萬，如果1個家庭1個障礙者有3個家人或是3.5個好了，其實全國就有超過500萬個身障者及其家屬，還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況，我們看到他會遇到怎麼樣的狀況，如果她是懷孕生產女性的話，我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳青琪，他是生命教育學院院長，常常在全國用生命教育演講，她先生是視障，她生小孩的時候必須從新莊坐公車去基隆，只是為了產檢，你可以想像有多辛苦。"],["陳院長建仁：很辛苦。"],["范委員雲：因為整個新北沒有一個她能夠調整的產台，她順利生下平安健康的小孩，整個生產的過程自己要洗澡、幫孩子洗澡，先生視障，其實會是非常大的工程，所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理，也沒有更多的個人助理，她都沒有辦法安心生產。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["范委員雲：你就可以看到女性的身分在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題。我們看到俊翰，我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異，可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼？他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘，而且他必須要一直極力爭取，後來才能夠口述代筆，可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下榻的飯店跟他報告說明，還安排他到考場，而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題，就讓他前一天開始考試，因為多給他一天考試，別人考兩天，他考三天，這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成申論題，俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候，其實他每題都會寫，可是時間不夠。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["范委員雲：所以這是一個很大的問題，他讀書期間，俊翰律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記，可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方請他提早報告，為他專門開會召集各部門，校方更聘請替俊翰做筆記的同學，而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。從這兩個例子來看，特別是俊翰律師的，難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。","我想提醒院長的是，身心障礙者其實是多重身分的，他不是只有一個身障者身分，就像剛剛講的女性遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院，因為產台的問題。原住民也跟我陳情，他們有雙重弱勢身分，可是我們的國家要求他二選一，所以他經常不能夠確定哪一個身分對他是比較好的選擇。針對經濟弱勢，政府有補助輔具，可是政府卻不補助維修，經濟弱勢者遇到維修沒有錢付時，輔具就等於報廢了。多元性別會遇到居服員、個人助理意識訓練不足。我在偏鄉也遇到1位陳情者，他為了等輔具維修，排不上時間在家3個月，他的輪椅沒有辦法使用，無法出門，這是我們臺灣的處境。請問院長，我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊翰律師的遺志，你覺得我們如何可以繼承他的遺志？"],["陳院長建仁：CRPD的法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化，而且陸陸續續的按照這樣的精神來做，但是就如同委員所提的，我們有很多還需要再加強、還需要再精進的地方，我們會往這個方向來努力，包括剛才你講的就學、就養，還有就業的這些部分都有需要加強的地方。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長，其實您真的非常關心這個議題，您已經知道答案了，答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法已經十幾年沒有修了，這次修法真的必須要符合，我們已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者權利公約（CRPD）。我想請問院長知不知道身權法要怎麼修才能夠符合CRPD國際公約呢？因為我們上一屆修到一半，後來就停下來了，因為彼此的落差很大，這次如果我們要符合CRPD的話應該要怎麼做，這個法要怎麼修才能符合呢？"],["陳院長建仁：有兩個很重要的部分，第一個，由衛福部來蒐集民間以及立法院的一些意見。第二個，我們有CRPD的國際專家學者審查，他也提供了很多寶貴的意見，我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣，我們一起來修，因為這部分滿細節的，不過我想聆聽看看委員寶貴的意見。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長，您剛剛講的也都對，你是講程序上這麼做，我們來看看實質，以我的整理有5個重點，第一個，障礙者要能為自己做決定，要落實「如果沒有我的參與，不要為我做決定」，因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼，當時修法的爭議，在我的版本中針對相關機制要有二分之一的障礙者代表，當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服。第二個，個人助理服務時數要充足，最近我也聽到陳媽媽講，譬如俊翰吃飯可能需要兩小時，可是吃飯的助理時數只能給他半小時，所以他要再用一個半小時就要拿他的個人助理的其他時數來用，其實對家屬來講，我們都看到陳媽媽幾乎全天候在照顧他，連喘息的空間都沒有，所以個人助理服務時數，我想院長很瞭解，也就是我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題。","第三個，障礙者要能夠在地自立生活，所以相關的環境很重要，不是讓它機構化，機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四個，很多障礙者跟我陳情，臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具，可是都是出口，因為臺灣本地沒有市場，就是因為政府的補助經費太少，他們甚至在臺灣買不到臺灣廠商生產的高科技輔具，所以高科技輔具的提供，就像我剛剛講的，我們補助輔具，可是卻沒有補助維修，這也是不應該的。最後，就是我所講的，我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重弱勢者，而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球，甚至被迫做選擇。這五點也是我們最近為下一代而戰，希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求，在這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD國際公約，因為上一次修法已經是17年前，我們2017年簽署的CRPD國際公約之後，本來就應該全面的檢視。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["范委員雲：這部法是首當其衝，我想從衛福部到內政部也有很多相關的領域，如果這個母法通過之後，超過500萬的身障家屬，如果再加上像我們這種家中有長輩的，這真的是一個很龐大的、超過一半的人口數會受惠於這麼重要的法案，院長覺得能夠承諾嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們一定會努力地請衛福部收集相關的意見，還有民間修法的建議，儘快提出修法的版本，更重要的，我也希望在整個制定的過程當中，在大院也能夠得到朝野黨團大家的協助，真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的身心障礙者，我想這是政府的責任，我們責無旁貸，一定會努力儘快地來提出修法。"],["范委員雲：所以您承諾行政院會提出符合CRPD的身權法，謝謝院長，真的是溫暖內閣。我也想問時間點啦，因為其實我們上一屆行政院就有版本，所以不需要很多時間嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：對！屆期不續審。"],["范委員雲：您是溫暖內閣，我很希望您是不是能夠敦促衛福部加速處理，當然如果可以跟其他的部會進行相關的討論，譬如說旅館的規範、各種規範等，內政部也管了非常多的場地，那是不是可以給我們一個時間點，能不能在520之前就提出呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來試試看。"],["范委員雲：試試看？"],["陳院長建仁：我們全力以赴啦！"],["范委員雲：這邊真的謝謝院長的承諾，對於您的努力，我想您是真的願意努力，我希望我們的溫暖內閣留下這兩項非常重要的政策，是您任內承諾、推動，甚至能夠提出草案的版本，也請院長一起用力的監督衛福部，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員、謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第3位陳委員玉珍質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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00:01:22,546\n我一定會努力來請他們及時提出\n\n5\n00:01:39,266 --> 00:01:57,236\n那我也要跟委員報告,新舊內閣一定是無縫接軌。好,我也期待無縫接軌,所以今天有一個新的議題,也希望溫暖內閣大人哥可以關注。我想陳俊漢律師的離開非常的突然,那大家都非常的遺憾跟難過。\n\n6\n00:01:58,317 --> 00:02:26,329\n我去年認識他所以非常的敬佩他。因為很多人說我想他也是臺灣的禍金。他擁有美國的雙重的法律會計。他其實有機會我聽到他母親說跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作。但是他選擇回臺灣就是希望為臺灣的人權努力。雖然我們在喊病的醫療資源無障礙環境其實都不如國外。\n\n7\n00:02:26,949 --> 00:02:54,389\n那下一頁喔那他離開之後我們有看到蔡總統特別給他包中令蔡總統說他離世是臺灣社會的巨大損失那俊翰的志業就交給我們繼續來實現這蔡總統講的我們賴清德副總統未來的總統也說落實俊翰理想抱負將持續實踐他推動的法案所以我想不管是現任或者是下一個\n\n8\n00:03:16,015 --> 00:03:16,415\n下一頁下一頁\n\n9\n00:03:35,712 --> 00:03:46,804\n這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒的影像,讓他繼續在我們這現身。有這樣的機會,那就好好把我朋友的腦殼給弄好。\n\n10\n00:03:50,058 --> 00:04:18,118\n這樣的採訪對陳俊漢來說獨創失利,更何況是遠赴美國求學了,但在異國他獲得前所未有的尊重與友善對待,讓原本在臺灣學公司法、商業證券法一小時能賺進幾萬塊收入的他,決定走向不同的路。我一路以來本來就有一直在爭取這一些就自己本來就在臺灣的教育環境之下,其實每一關都是靠自己去努力一個一個突破,所以是\n\n11\n00:04:19,299 --> 00:04:34,785\n其實一接觸到國外的那種事就真的就是會覺得衝擊很大,感觸很深。會覺得好像國外真的是把那個障礙者當成人看待,然後我們在這邊好像是那個第三世界的國家。\n\n12\n00:04:36,488 --> 00:05:04,250\n我想院長看了這段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧他說他在國外讀書的經驗發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看然後回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家那我想今天就是他放棄了國外的工作機會回到對他個人很不利的環境所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家\n\n13\n00:05:04,770 --> 00:05:04,790\n﹚范雲\n\n14\n00:05:13,959 --> 00:05:36,575\n看到大概有上百萬,看他的嚴重的程度有不同。依據政府的統計有120萬,那這個不包括就是像我母親她是因為老化出門要用輪椅,所以輪椅的這種老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就120萬。120萬如果他有一個家庭一個障礙者有三個家人或者3.5個好了,\n\n15\n00:05:37,876 --> 00:06:03,714\n其實全國就有500萬個超過500萬個身障者及其家屬還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況我們看到她會遇到怎麼樣的狀況下一頁如果她是懷孕生產女性的話這邊就是我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳清琦她是生命教育學院的院長常常在全國用生命教育演講\n\n16\n00:06:04,454 --> 00:06:33,208\n他呢先生是市長那他生了小孩的時候那他必須從新莊坐公車去基隆只是為了產檢你可以想像那個有多辛苦因為整個新北沒有一個他能夠有一個調整的一個產檯那他順利生下平安健康的小孩那整個生產的過程自己要洗澡幫孩子洗澡先生市長其實會非常大的工程\n\n17\n00:06:33,928 --> 00:07:02,885\n那所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理沒有更多的個人助理都沒有辦法安心生產你就可以看到女性的身份在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題下一個我們看到俊翰我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘而且他必須要一直爭取極力爭取後來才能夠口述代筆\n\n18\n00:07:03,846 --> 00:07:20,132\n可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下他的飯店跟他報告說明安排他到考場而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題就讓他前一天開始考試\n\n19\n00:07:21,092 --> 00:07:34,997\n因為呢,多給他一天考試,別人考兩天,他考三天。那這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成深論題。俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候,其實他每題都會寫,可是時間不夠。所以這是一個\n\n20\n00:07:38,118 --> 00:07:53,315\n很大的問題他讀書期間郡安律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方呢請他提早報告為他專門開會召集各部門校方更聘請\n\n21\n00:07:54,156 --> 00:08:22,497\n替俊翰做筆記的同學而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。我想從這兩個例子那特別是俊翰律師的難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。下一頁我想這邊也提醒院長的是身心障礙者其實是多重身份的他不是只有一個身障者身份就像這邊剛剛講的女性會遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院因為產台的問題\n\n22\n00:08:23,678 --> 00:08:41,308\n原住民呢他們也跟我陳情他們有雙重弱勢身份可是我們的國家要求他二選一所以他有時候經常不能夠確定哪一個身份對他是比較好的選擇經濟弱勢的話政府有補助輔具可是政府卻不補助維修\n\n23\n00:08:42,228 --> 00:08:42,788\n這是我們臺灣的處境。下一頁\n\n24\n00:09:07,088 --> 00:09:17,784\n我想請問院長您覺得我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊漢律師的遺志,我們如何可以繼承他的遺志?\n\n25\n00:09:18,410 --> 00:09:47,199\n我想這個CRPD這一個法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化而且對陸陸續續的按照這樣的一個精神來做但是就如同委員你所提的我們有很多地方還需要再加強還需要再精進的地方那我們會往這個方向來努力那包括了剛才你講的救學救養還有就業的這些部分都需要有加強的地方\n\n26\n00:09:47,919 --> 00:10:16,992\n下一頁謝謝院長所以其實您真的非常關心這個議題您已經知道答案了答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法這次修法因為十幾年沒有修了真的必須要符合我們自己已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者就是說權利公約這個CRPD的公約那下一頁那我想請問院長不知道您知不知道身權法\n\n27\n00:10:17,312 --> 00:10:17,392\n主席主席\n\n28\n00:10:44,785 --> 00:10:57,059\n的這個專家學者的審查他也提供了很多寶貴的意見那我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣我們一起來修那這因為他蠻細節的不過我想聆聽看看這一個委員寶貴的意見\n\n29\n00:10:58,631 --> 00:11:14,968\n謝謝院長您剛講的也都對是講程序上這麼做那我們來看實質下一頁他其實以我的整理有五個重點第一個障礙者要能為自己做決定那因為要落實如果沒有我的參與不要為我做決定\n\n30\n00:11:15,569 --> 00:11:42,298\n因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼那當時我們修法的爭議我的版本相關的機制要有12分障礙者的代表那當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服第二個個人助理服務時數要充足那最近我也聽到陳媽媽講譬如說俊翰他吃飯他可能是需要兩小時可是吃飯的這個助理的時數只能給他半小時\n\n31\n00:11:43,118 --> 00:12:04,646\n所以他算是要用一個半小時要拿他的個人助理其他的時數來用那這個其實就是對家屬來講我們都看到陳媽媽已經幾乎據說全天候的在照顧他了連喘息的空間都沒有所以個人助理服務的時數也就是我想院長很了解我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題\n\n32\n00:12:05,566 --> 00:12:23,733\n那第三個,障礙者要能夠在地自立生活,所以相關的環境很重要,而不是讓它機構化,機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四個,很多障礙者跟我陳情,臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具,可是都是出口。\n\n33\n00:12:24,233 --> 00:12:45,465\n因為臺灣本地沒有市場,就是因為政府補助經費太少,所以他們甚至在臺灣買不到在臺灣的廠商生產的高科技輔具。所以高科技輔具的提供到我剛講的,你補助了輔具,可是卻沒有補助維修,這也是不應該的。\n\n34\n00:12:47,106 --> 00:13:01,476\n最後一個就是我所講的我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重的弱勢者而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球甚至被迫做選擇那這五點\n\n35\n00:13:02,777 --> 00:13:28,284\n就是也是下一頁也是我們最近為下一代而戰我們希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求就是一定要這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD的國際公約因為上一次修法已經是17年前那我們2017年簽署CRPD國際公約之後本來就應該全面的檢視\n\n36\n00:13:54,960 --> 00:14:21,489\n我想這個我們一定會努力的來請這個衛福部收集相關的意見還有民間修法的建議來盡快提出修法的這個版本那更重要的我也希望在這個整個的這個制定的這個過程當中在大院也能夠得到我們朝野黨團大家的協助真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的這些身心障礙者我想這是政府的責任我們責無旁貸\n\n37\n00:14:22,233 --> 00:14:36,917\n而一定會努力來盡快的來提出這個修法。好,謝謝院長。所以您承諾我們行政院會提出符合CRPD的生權法。謝謝院長,真的是溫暖內閣。那我也想問時間點,因為其實我們上一屆\n\n38\n00:14:39,298 --> 00:14:40,258\n我們來試試看。我們全力以赴。\n\n39\n00:15:09,373 --> 00:15:23,972\n所以我這邊真的謝謝院長的承諾您的努力我想您是真的願意努力那我希望我們溫暖內閣留下這兩個非常重要是您任內承諾推動甚至能夠提出\n\n40\n00:15:33,011 --> 00:15:39,606\n謝謝范雲委員、謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第三位陳委員御爭質詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9655\t31584\t院長早安,有請陳院長。再請陳院長備刑。院長早安,那今天的主題是如何建構一個真正平等沒有歧視的社會。下一頁。\n36068\t62887\t首先我要謝謝院長大仁哥您真的是溫暖內閣我看到您已經有一個很重要的貢獻就是上次記得我總質詢的時候讓無家者在我們的議場現身您看到之後我們也討論了相關的問題您當時就立刻承諾我們的社會救助法真的是需要好好的修衛福部也承諾\n63447\t80885\t在今年5月會提出,雖然您一直不願意繼續擔任我們的院長,但我相信希望也能在您卸任前能夠提出。我想這是一個非常重要的溫暖的法案,因為它會接住我們的貧窮人口。\n81385\t82546\t我一定會努力來請他們及時提出\n99266\t117236\t那我也要跟委員報告,新舊內閣一定是無縫接軌。好,我也期待無縫接軌,所以今天有一個新的議題,也希望溫暖內閣大人哥可以關注。我想陳俊漢律師的離開非常的突然,那大家都非常的遺憾跟難過。\n118317\t146329\t我去年認識他所以非常的敬佩他。因為很多人說我想他也是臺灣的禍金。他擁有美國的雙重的法律會計。他其實有機會我聽到他母親說跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作。但是他選擇回臺灣就是希望為臺灣的人權努力。雖然我們在喊病的醫療資源無障礙環境其實都不如國外。\n146949\t174389\t那下一頁喔那他離開之後我們有看到蔡總統特別給他包中令蔡總統說他離世是臺灣社會的巨大損失那俊翰的志業就交給我們繼續來實現這蔡總統講的我們賴清德副總統未來的總統也說落實俊翰理想抱負將持續實踐他推動的法案所以我想不管是現任或者是下一個\n175401\t196015\t總統\n196015\t196415\t下一頁下一頁\n215712\t226804\t這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒的影像,讓他繼續在我們這現身。有這樣的機會,那就好好把我朋友的腦殼給弄好。\n230058\t258118\t這樣的採訪對陳俊漢來說獨創失利,更何況是遠赴美國求學了,但在異國他獲得前所未有的尊重與友善對待,讓原本在臺灣學公司法、商業證券法一小時能賺進幾萬塊收入的他,決定走向不同的路。我一路以來本來就有一直在爭取這一些就自己本來就在臺灣的教育環境之下,其實每一關都是靠自己去努力一個一個突破,所以是\n259299\t274785\t其實一接觸到國外的那種事就真的就是會覺得衝擊很大,感觸很深。會覺得好像國外真的是把那個障礙者當成人看待,然後我們在這邊好像是那個第三世界的國家。\n276488\t304250\t我想院長看了這段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧他說他在國外讀書的經驗發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看然後回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家那我想今天就是他放棄了國外的工作機會回到對他個人很不利的環境所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家\n304770\t304790\t﹚范雲\n313959\t336575\t看到大概有上百萬,看他的嚴重的程度有不同。依據政府的統計有120萬,那這個不包括就是像我母親她是因為老化出門要用輪椅,所以輪椅的這種老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就120萬。120萬如果他有一個家庭一個障礙者有三個家人或者3.5個好了,\n337876\t363714\t其實全國就有500萬個超過500萬個身障者及其家屬還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況我們看到她會遇到怎麼樣的狀況下一頁如果她是懷孕生產女性的話這邊就是我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳清琦她是生命教育學院的院長常常在全國用生命教育演講\n364454\t393208\t他呢先生是市長那他生了小孩的時候那他必須從新莊坐公車去基隆只是為了產檢你可以想像那個有多辛苦因為整個新北沒有一個他能夠有一個調整的一個產檯那他順利生下平安健康的小孩那整個生產的過程自己要洗澡幫孩子洗澡先生市長其實會非常大的工程\n393928\t422885\t那所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理沒有更多的個人助理都沒有辦法安心生產你就可以看到女性的身份在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題下一個我們看到俊翰我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘而且他必須要一直爭取極力爭取後來才能夠口述代筆\n423846\t440132\t可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下他的飯店跟他報告說明安排他到考場而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題就讓他前一天開始考試\n441092\t454997\t因為呢,多給他一天考試,別人考兩天,他考三天。 那這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成深論題。 俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候,其實他每題都會寫,可是時間不夠。 所以這是一個\n458118\t473315\t很大的問題他讀書期間郡安律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方呢請他提早報告為他專門開會召集各部門校方更聘請\n474156\t502497\t替俊翰做筆記的同學而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。我想從這兩個例子那特別是俊翰律師的難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。下一頁我想這邊也提醒院長的是身心障礙者其實是多重身份的他不是只有一個身障者身份就像這邊剛剛講的女性會遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院因為產台的問題\n503678\t521308\t原住民呢他們也跟我陳情他們有雙重弱勢身份可是我們的國家要求他二選一所以他有時候經常不能夠確定哪一個身份對他是比較好的選擇經濟弱勢的話政府有補助輔具可是政府卻不補助維修\n522228\t522788\t這是我們臺灣的處境。下一頁\n547088\t557784\t我想請問院長您覺得我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊漢律師的遺志,我們如何可以繼承他的遺志?\n558410\t587199\t我想這個CRPD這一個法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化而且對陸陸續續的按照這樣的一個精神來做但是就如同委員你所提的我們有很多地方還需要再加強還需要再精進的地方那我們會往這個方向來努力那包括了剛才你講的救學救養還有就業的這些部分都需要有加強的地方\n587919\t616992\t下一頁謝謝院長所以其實您真的非常關心這個議題您已經知道答案了答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法這次修法因為十幾年沒有修了真的必須要符合我們自己已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者就是說權利公約這個CRPD的公約那下一頁那我想請問院長不知道您知不知道身權法\n617312\t617392\t主席主席\n644785\t657059\t的這個專家學者的審查他也提供了很多寶貴的意見那我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣我們一起來修那這因為他蠻細節的不過我想聆聽看看這一個委員寶貴的意見\n658631\t674968\t謝謝院長您剛講的也都對是講程序上這麼做那我們來看實質下一頁他其實以我的整理有五個重點第一個障礙者要能為自己做決定那因為要落實如果沒有我的參與不要為我做決定\n675569\t702298\t因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼那當時我們修法的爭議我的版本相關的機制要有1 2分障礙者的代表那當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服第二個個人助理服務時數要充足那最近我也聽到陳媽媽講譬如說俊翰他吃飯他可能是需要兩小時可是吃飯的這個助理的時數只能給他半小時\n703118\t724646\t所以他算是要用一個半小時要拿他的個人助理其他的時數來用那這個其實就是對家屬來講我們都看到陳媽媽已經幾乎據說全天候的在照顧他了連喘息的空間都沒有所以個人助理服務的時數也就是我想院長很了解我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題\n725566\t743733\t那第三個,障礙者要能夠在地自立生活,所以相關的環境很重要,而不是讓它機構化,機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四個,很多障礙者跟我陳情,臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具,可是都是出口。\n744233\t765465\t因為臺灣本地沒有市場,就是因為政府補助經費太少,所以他們甚至在臺灣買不到在臺灣的廠商生產的高科技輔具。所以高科技輔具的提供到我剛講的,你補助了輔具,可是卻沒有補助維修,這也是不應該的。\n767106\t781476\t最後一個就是我所講的我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重的弱勢者而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球甚至被迫做選擇那這五點\n782777\t808284\t就是也是下一頁也是我們最近為下一代而戰我們希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求就是一定要這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD的國際公約因為上一次修法已經是17年前那我們2017年簽署CRPD國際公約之後本來就應該全面的檢視\n809104\t834940\t﹗\n834960\t861489\t我想這個我們一定會努力的來請這個衛福部收集相關的意見還有民間修法的建議來盡快提出修法的這個版本那更重要的我也希望在這個整個的這個制定的這個過程當中在大院也能夠得到我們朝野黨團大家的協助真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的這些身心障礙者我想這是政府的責任我們責無旁貸\n862233\t876917\t而一定會努力來盡快的來提出這個修法。好,謝謝院長。所以您承諾我們行政院會提出符合CRPD的生權法。謝謝院長,真的是溫暖內閣。那我也想問時間點,因為其實我們上一屆\n879298\t880258\t我們來試試看。我們全力以赴。\n909373\t923972\t所以我這邊真的謝謝院長的承諾您的努力我想您是真的願意努力那我希望我們溫暖內閣留下這兩個非常重要是您任內承諾推動甚至能夠提出\n933011\t939606\t謝謝范雲委員、謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第三位陳委員御爭質詢。\n","txt":"院長早安,有請陳院長。再請陳院長備刑。院長早安,那今天的主題是如何建構一個真正平等沒有歧視的社會。下一頁。\n首先我要謝謝院長大仁哥您真的是溫暖內閣我看到您已經有一個很重要的貢獻就是上次記得我總質詢的時候讓無家者在我們的議場現身您看到之後我們也討論了相關的問題您當時就立刻承諾我們的社會救助法真的是需要好好的修衛福部也承諾\n在今年5月會提出,雖然您一直不願意繼續擔任我們的院長,但我相信希望也能在您卸任前能夠提出。我想這是一個非常重要的溫暖的法案,因為它會接住我們的貧窮人口。\n我一定會努力來請他們及時提出\n那我也要跟委員報告,新舊內閣一定是無縫接軌。好,我也期待無縫接軌,所以今天有一個新的議題,也希望溫暖內閣大人哥可以關注。我想陳俊漢律師的離開非常的突然,那大家都非常的遺憾跟難過。\n我去年認識他所以非常的敬佩他。因為很多人說我想他也是臺灣的禍金。他擁有美國的雙重的法律會計。他其實有機會我聽到他母親說跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作。但是他選擇回臺灣就是希望為臺灣的人權努力。雖然我們在喊病的醫療資源無障礙環境其實都不如國外。\n那下一頁喔那他離開之後我們有看到蔡總統特別給他包中令蔡總統說他離世是臺灣社會的巨大損失那俊翰的志業就交給我們繼續來實現這蔡總統講的我們賴清德副總統未來的總統也說落實俊翰理想抱負將持續實踐他推動的法案所以我想不管是現任或者是下一個\n總統\n下一頁下一頁\n這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒的影像,讓他繼續在我們這現身。有這樣的機會,那就好好把我朋友的腦殼給弄好。\n這樣的採訪對陳俊漢來說獨創失利,更何況是遠赴美國求學了,但在異國他獲得前所未有的尊重與友善對待,讓原本在臺灣學公司法、商業證券法一小時能賺進幾萬塊收入的他,決定走向不同的路。我一路以來本來就有一直在爭取這一些就自己本來就在臺灣的教育環境之下,其實每一關都是靠自己去努力一個一個突破,所以是\n其實一接觸到國外的那種事就真的就是會覺得衝擊很大,感觸很深。會覺得好像國外真的是把那個障礙者當成人看待,然後我們在這邊好像是那個第三世界的國家。\n我想院長看了這段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧他說他在國外讀書的經驗發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看然後回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家那我想今天就是他放棄了國外的工作機會回到對他個人很不利的環境所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家\n﹚范雲\n看到大概有上百萬,看他的嚴重的程度有不同。依據政府的統計有120萬,那這個不包括就是像我母親她是因為老化出門要用輪椅,所以輪椅的這種老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就120萬。120萬如果他有一個家庭一個障礙者有三個家人或者3.5個好了,\n其實全國就有500萬個超過500萬個身障者及其家屬還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況我們看到她會遇到怎麼樣的狀況下一頁如果她是懷孕生產女性的話這邊就是我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳清琦她是生命教育學院的院長常常在全國用生命教育演講\n他呢先生是市長那他生了小孩的時候那他必須從新莊坐公車去基隆只是為了產檢你可以想像那個有多辛苦因為整個新北沒有一個他能夠有一個調整的一個產檯那他順利生下平安健康的小孩那整個生產的過程自己要洗澡幫孩子洗澡先生市長其實會非常大的工程\n那所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理沒有更多的個人助理都沒有辦法安心生產你就可以看到女性的身份在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題下一個我們看到俊翰我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘而且他必須要一直爭取極力爭取後來才能夠口述代筆\n可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下他的飯店跟他報告說明安排他到考場而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題就讓他前一天開始考試\n因為呢,多給他一天考試,別人考兩天,他考三天。 那這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成深論題。 俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候,其實他每題都會寫,可是時間不夠。 所以這是一個\n很大的問題他讀書期間郡安律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方呢請他提早報告為他專門開會召集各部門校方更聘請\n替俊翰做筆記的同學而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。我想從這兩個例子那特別是俊翰律師的難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。下一頁我想這邊也提醒院長的是身心障礙者其實是多重身份的他不是只有一個身障者身份就像這邊剛剛講的女性會遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院因為產台的問題\n原住民呢他們也跟我陳情他們有雙重弱勢身份可是我們的國家要求他二選一所以他有時候經常不能夠確定哪一個身份對他是比較好的選擇經濟弱勢的話政府有補助輔具可是政府卻不補助維修\n這是我們臺灣的處境。下一頁\n我想請問院長您覺得我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊漢律師的遺志,我們如何可以繼承他的遺志?\n我想這個CRPD這一個法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化而且對陸陸續續的按照這樣的一個精神來做但是就如同委員你所提的我們有很多地方還需要再加強還需要再精進的地方那我們會往這個方向來努力那包括了剛才你講的救學救養還有就業的這些部分都需要有加強的地方\n下一頁謝謝院長所以其實您真的非常關心這個議題您已經知道答案了答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法這次修法因為十幾年沒有修了真的必須要符合我們自己已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者就是說權利公約這個CRPD的公約那下一頁那我想請問院長不知道您知不知道身權法\n主席主席\n的這個專家學者的審查他也提供了很多寶貴的意見那我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣我們一起來修那這因為他蠻細節的不過我想聆聽看看這一個委員寶貴的意見\n謝謝院長您剛講的也都對是講程序上這麼做那我們來看實質下一頁他其實以我的整理有五個重點第一個障礙者要能為自己做決定那因為要落實如果沒有我的參與不要為我做決定\n因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼那當時我們修法的爭議我的版本相關的機制要有1 2分障礙者的代表那當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服第二個個人助理服務時數要充足那最近我也聽到陳媽媽講譬如說俊翰他吃飯他可能是需要兩小時可是吃飯的這個助理的時數只能給他半小時\n所以他算是要用一個半小時要拿他的個人助理其他的時數來用那這個其實就是對家屬來講我們都看到陳媽媽已經幾乎據說全天候的在照顧他了連喘息的空間都沒有所以個人助理服務的時數也就是我想院長很了解我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題\n那第三個,障礙者要能夠在地自立生活,所以相關的環境很重要,而不是讓它機構化,機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四個,很多障礙者跟我陳情,臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具,可是都是出口。\n因為臺灣本地沒有市場,就是因為政府補助經費太少,所以他們甚至在臺灣買不到在臺灣的廠商生產的高科技輔具。所以高科技輔具的提供到我剛講的,你補助了輔具,可是卻沒有補助維修,這也是不應該的。\n最後一個就是我所講的我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重的弱勢者而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球甚至被迫做選擇那這五點\n就是也是下一頁也是我們最近為下一代而戰我們希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求就是一定要這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD的國際公約因為上一次修法已經是17年前那我們2017年簽署CRPD國際公約之後本來就應該全面的檢視\n﹗\n我想這個我們一定會努力的來請這個衛福部收集相關的意見還有民間修法的建議來盡快提出修法的這個版本那更重要的我也希望在這個整個的這個制定的這個過程當中在大院也能夠得到我們朝野黨團大家的協助真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的這些身心障礙者我想這是政府的責任我們責無旁貸\n而一定會努力來盡快的來提出這個修法。好,謝謝院長。所以您承諾我們行政院會提出符合CRPD的生權法。謝謝院長,真的是溫暖內閣。那我也想問時間點,因為其實我們上一屆\n我們來試試看。我們全力以赴。\n所以我這邊真的謝謝院長的承諾您的努力我想您是真的願意努力那我希望我們溫暖內閣留下這兩個非常重要是您任內承諾推動甚至能夠提出\n謝謝范雲委員、謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第三位陳委員御爭質詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.655 --> 00:31.584\n院長早安,有請陳院長。再請陳院長備刑。院長早安,那今天的主題是如何建構一個真正平等沒有歧視的社會。下一頁。\n\n00:36.068 --> 01:02.887\n首先我要謝謝院長大仁哥您真的是溫暖內閣我看到您已經有一個很重要的貢獻就是上次記得我總質詢的時候讓無家者在我們的議場現身您看到之後我們也討論了相關的問題您當時就立刻承諾我們的社會救助法真的是需要好好的修衛福部也承諾\n\n01:03.447 --> 01:20.885\n在今年5月會提出,雖然您一直不願意繼續擔任我們的院長,但我相信希望也能在您卸任前能夠提出。我想這是一個非常重要的溫暖的法案,因為它會接住我們的貧窮人口。\n\n01:21.385 --> 01:22.546\n我一定會努力來請他們及時提出\n\n01:39.266 --> 01:57.236\n那我也要跟委員報告,新舊內閣一定是無縫接軌。好,我也期待無縫接軌,所以今天有一個新的議題,也希望溫暖內閣大人哥可以關注。我想陳俊漢律師的離開非常的突然,那大家都非常的遺憾跟難過。\n\n01:58.317 --> 02:26.329\n我去年認識他所以非常的敬佩他。因為很多人說我想他也是臺灣的禍金。他擁有美國的雙重的法律會計。他其實有機會我聽到他母親說跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作。但是他選擇回臺灣就是希望為臺灣的人權努力。雖然我們在喊病的醫療資源無障礙環境其實都不如國外。\n\n02:26.949 --> 02:54.389\n那下一頁喔那他離開之後我們有看到蔡總統特別給他包中令蔡總統說他離世是臺灣社會的巨大損失那俊翰的志業就交給我們繼續來實現這蔡總統講的我們賴清德副總統未來的總統也說落實俊翰理想抱負將持續實踐他推動的法案所以我想不管是現任或者是下一個\n\n03:16.015 --> 03:16.415\n下一頁下一頁\n\n03:35.712 --> 03:46.804\n這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒的影像,讓他繼續在我們這現身。有這樣的機會,那就好好把我朋友的腦殼給弄好。\n\n03:50.058 --> 04:18.118\n這樣的採訪對陳俊漢來說獨創失利,更何況是遠赴美國求學了,但在異國他獲得前所未有的尊重與友善對待,讓原本在臺灣學公司法、商業證券法一小時能賺進幾萬塊收入的他,決定走向不同的路。我一路以來本來就有一直在爭取這一些就自己本來就在臺灣的教育環境之下,其實每一關都是靠自己去努力一個一個突破,所以是\n\n04:19.299 --> 04:34.785\n其實一接觸到國外的那種事就真的就是會覺得衝擊很大,感觸很深。會覺得好像國外真的是把那個障礙者當成人看待,然後我們在這邊好像是那個第三世界的國家。\n\n04:36.488 --> 05:04.250\n我想院長看了這段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧他說他在國外讀書的經驗發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看然後回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家那我想今天就是他放棄了國外的工作機會回到對他個人很不利的環境所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家\n\n05:04.770 --> 05:04.790\n﹚范雲\n\n05:13.959 --> 05:36.575\n看到大概有上百萬,看他的嚴重的程度有不同。依據政府的統計有120萬,那這個不包括就是像我母親她是因為老化出門要用輪椅,所以輪椅的這種老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就120萬。120萬如果他有一個家庭一個障礙者有三個家人或者3.5個好了,\n\n05:37.876 --> 06:03.714\n其實全國就有500萬個超過500萬個身障者及其家屬還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況我們看到她會遇到怎麼樣的狀況下一頁如果她是懷孕生產女性的話這邊就是我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳清琦她是生命教育學院的院長常常在全國用生命教育演講\n\n06:04.454 --> 06:33.208\n他呢先生是市長那他生了小孩的時候那他必須從新莊坐公車去基隆只是為了產檢你可以想像那個有多辛苦因為整個新北沒有一個他能夠有一個調整的一個產檯那他順利生下平安健康的小孩那整個生產的過程自己要洗澡幫孩子洗澡先生市長其實會非常大的工程\n\n06:33.928 --> 07:02.885\n那所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理沒有更多的個人助理都沒有辦法安心生產你就可以看到女性的身份在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題下一個我們看到俊翰我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘而且他必須要一直爭取極力爭取後來才能夠口述代筆\n\n07:03.846 --> 07:20.132\n可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下他的飯店跟他報告說明安排他到考場而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題就讓他前一天開始考試\n\n07:21.092 --> 07:34.997\n因為呢,多給他一天考試,別人考兩天,他考三天。那這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成深論題。俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候,其實他每題都會寫,可是時間不夠。所以這是一個\n\n07:38.118 --> 07:53.315\n很大的問題他讀書期間郡安律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方呢請他提早報告為他專門開會召集各部門校方更聘請\n\n07:54.156 --> 08:22.497\n替俊翰做筆記的同學而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。我想從這兩個例子那特別是俊翰律師的難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。下一頁我想這邊也提醒院長的是身心障礙者其實是多重身份的他不是只有一個身障者身份就像這邊剛剛講的女性會遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院因為產台的問題\n\n08:23.678 --> 08:41.308\n原住民呢他們也跟我陳情他們有雙重弱勢身份可是我們的國家要求他二選一所以他有時候經常不能夠確定哪一個身份對他是比較好的選擇經濟弱勢的話政府有補助輔具可是政府卻不補助維修\n\n08:42.228 --> 08:42.788\n這是我們臺灣的處境。下一頁\n\n09:07.088 --> 09:17.784\n我想請問院長您覺得我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊漢律師的遺志,我們如何可以繼承他的遺志?\n\n09:18.410 --> 09:47.199\n我想這個CRPD這一個法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化而且對陸陸續續的按照這樣的一個精神來做但是就如同委員你所提的我們有很多地方還需要再加強還需要再精進的地方那我們會往這個方向來努力那包括了剛才你講的救學救養還有就業的這些部分都需要有加強的地方\n\n09:47.919 --> 10:16.992\n下一頁謝謝院長所以其實您真的非常關心這個議題您已經知道答案了答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法這次修法因為十幾年沒有修了真的必須要符合我們自己已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者就是說權利公約這個CRPD的公約那下一頁那我想請問院長不知道您知不知道身權法\n\n10:17.312 --> 10:17.392\n主席主席\n\n10:44.785 --> 10:57.059\n的這個專家學者的審查他也提供了很多寶貴的意見那我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣我們一起來修那這因為他蠻細節的不過我想聆聽看看這一個委員寶貴的意見\n\n10:58.631 --> 11:14.968\n謝謝院長您剛講的也都對是講程序上這麼做那我們來看實質下一頁他其實以我的整理有五個重點第一個障礙者要能為自己做決定那因為要落實如果沒有我的參與不要為我做決定\n\n11:15.569 --> 11:42.298\n因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼那當時我們修法的爭議我的版本相關的機制要有12分障礙者的代表那當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服第二個個人助理服務時數要充足那最近我也聽到陳媽媽講譬如說俊翰他吃飯他可能是需要兩小時可是吃飯的這個助理的時數只能給他半小時\n\n11:43.118 --> 12:04.646\n所以他算是要用一個半小時要拿他的個人助理其他的時數來用那這個其實就是對家屬來講我們都看到陳媽媽已經幾乎據說全天候的在照顧他了連喘息的空間都沒有所以個人助理服務的時數也就是我想院長很了解我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題\n\n12:05.566 --> 12:23.733\n那第三個,障礙者要能夠在地自立生活,所以相關的環境很重要,而不是讓它機構化,機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四個,很多障礙者跟我陳情,臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具,可是都是出口。\n\n12:24.233 --> 12:45.465\n因為臺灣本地沒有市場,就是因為政府補助經費太少,所以他們甚至在臺灣買不到在臺灣的廠商生產的高科技輔具。所以高科技輔具的提供到我剛講的,你補助了輔具,可是卻沒有補助維修,這也是不應該的。\n\n12:47.106 --> 13:01.476\n最後一個就是我所講的我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重的弱勢者而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球甚至被迫做選擇那這五點\n\n13:02.777 --> 13:28.284\n就是也是下一頁也是我們最近為下一代而戰我們希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求就是一定要這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD的國際公約因為上一次修法已經是17年前那我們2017年簽署CRPD國際公約之後本來就應該全面的檢視\n\n13:54.960 --> 14:21.489\n我想這個我們一定會努力的來請這個衛福部收集相關的意見還有民間修法的建議來盡快提出修法的這個版本那更重要的我也希望在這個整個的這個制定的這個過程當中在大院也能夠得到我們朝野黨團大家的協助真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的這些身心障礙者我想這是政府的責任我們責無旁貸\n\n14:22.233 --> 14:36.917\n而一定會努力來盡快的來提出這個修法。好,謝謝院長。所以您承諾我們行政院會提出符合CRPD的生權法。謝謝院長,真的是溫暖內閣。那我也想問時間點,因為其實我們上一屆\n\n14:39.298 --> 14:40.258\n我們來試試看。我們全力以赴。\n\n15:09.373 --> 15:23.972\n所以我這邊真的謝謝院長的承諾您的努力我想您是真的願意努力那我希望我們溫暖內閣留下這兩個非常重要是您任內承諾推動甚至能夠提出\n\n15:33.011 --> 15:39.606\n謝謝范雲委員、謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第三位陳委員御爭質詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.655,"end":31.584,"text":"院長早安,有請陳院長。再請陳院長備刑。院長早安,那今天的主題是如何建構一個真正平等沒有歧視的社會。下一頁。"},{"start":36.068,"end":62.887,"text":"首先我要謝謝院長大仁哥您真的是溫暖內閣我看到您已經有一個很重要的貢獻就是上次記得我總質詢的時候讓無家者在我們的議場現身您看到之後我們也討論了相關的問題您當時就立刻承諾我們的社會救助法真的是需要好好的修衛福部也承諾"},{"start":63.447,"end":80.885,"text":"在今年5月會提出,雖然您一直不願意繼續擔任我們的院長,但我相信希望也能在您卸任前能夠提出。我想這是一個非常重要的溫暖的法案,因為它會接住我們的貧窮人口。"},{"start":81.385,"end":82.546,"text":"我一定會努力來請他們及時提出"},{"start":99.266,"end":117.236,"text":"那我也要跟委員報告,新舊內閣一定是無縫接軌。好,我也期待無縫接軌,所以今天有一個新的議題,也希望溫暖內閣大人哥可以關注。我想陳俊漢律師的離開非常的突然,那大家都非常的遺憾跟難過。"},{"start":118.317,"end":146.329,"text":"我去年認識他所以非常的敬佩他。因為很多人說我想他也是臺灣的禍金。他擁有美國的雙重的法律會計。他其實有機會我聽到他母親說跟他的同學一樣在世界銀行工作。但是他選擇回臺灣就是希望為臺灣的人權努力。雖然我們在喊病的醫療資源無障礙環境其實都不如國外。"},{"start":146.949,"end":174.389,"text":"那下一頁喔那他離開之後我們有看到蔡總統特別給他包中令蔡總統說他離世是臺灣社會的巨大損失那俊翰的志業就交給我們繼續來實現這蔡總統講的我們賴清德副總統未來的總統也說落實俊翰理想抱負將持續實踐他推動的法案所以我想不管是現任或者是下一個"},{"start":175.401,"end":196.015,"text":"總統"},{"start":196.015,"end":196.415,"text":"下一頁下一頁"},{"start":215.712,"end":226.804,"text":"這邊我想放一個俊翰律師自己講的59秒的影像,讓他繼續在我們這現身。有這樣的機會,那就好好把我朋友的腦殼給弄好。"},{"start":230.058,"end":258.118,"text":"這樣的採訪對陳俊漢來說獨創失利,更何況是遠赴美國求學了,但在異國他獲得前所未有的尊重與友善對待,讓原本在臺灣學公司法、商業證券法一小時能賺進幾萬塊收入的他,決定走向不同的路。我一路以來本來就有一直在爭取這一些就自己本來就在臺灣的教育環境之下,其實每一關都是靠自己去努力一個一個突破,所以是"},{"start":259.299,"end":274.785,"text":"其實一接觸到國外的那種事就真的就是會覺得衝擊很大,感觸很深。會覺得好像國外真的是把那個障礙者當成人看待,然後我們在這邊好像是那個第三世界的國家。"},{"start":276.488,"end":304.25,"text":"我想院長看了這段話應該會跟我一樣覺得很羞愧他說他在國外讀書的經驗發現國外真的是把障礙者當人看然後回想我們在臺灣好像是第三世界國家那我想今天就是他放棄了國外的工作機會回到對他個人很不利的環境所以我們到底如何才能夠讓臺灣脫離障礙者的第三世界國家"},{"start":304.77,"end":304.79,"text":"﹚范雲"},{"start":313.959,"end":336.575,"text":"看到大概有上百萬,看他的嚴重的程度有不同。依據政府的統計有120萬,那這個不包括就是像我母親她是因為老化出門要用輪椅,所以輪椅的這種老化失能者沒有包括在裡面就120萬。120萬如果他有一個家庭一個障礙者有三個家人或者3.5個好了,"},{"start":337.876,"end":363.714,"text":"其實全國就有500萬個超過500萬個身障者及其家屬還不包括像我母親這樣子的狀況我們看到她會遇到怎麼樣的狀況下一頁如果她是懷孕生產女性的話這邊就是我這邊這個照片是我親自訪問的身障媽媽陳清琦她是生命教育學院的院長常常在全國用生命教育演講"},{"start":364.454,"end":393.208,"text":"他呢先生是市長那他生了小孩的時候那他必須從新莊坐公車去基隆只是為了產檢你可以想像那個有多辛苦因為整個新北沒有一個他能夠有一個調整的一個產檯那他順利生下平安健康的小孩那整個生產的過程自己要洗澡幫孩子洗澡先生市長其實會非常大的工程"},{"start":393.928,"end":422.885,"text":"那所以懷孕期間沒有個人助理沒有更多的個人助理都沒有辦法安心生產你就可以看到女性的身份在懷孕生產期間會遇到的問題下一個我們看到俊翰我們知道他在求學的時間表現優異可是俊翰遇到的情況是什麼他參加大學考試每科只能延長20分鐘而且他必須要一直爭取極力爭取後來才能夠口述代筆"},{"start":423.846,"end":440.132,"text":"可是他在美國考律師執照遇到的是考務中心主動到他下他的飯店跟他報告說明安排他到考場而且只要他簽署一張不會洩題就讓他前一天開始考試"},{"start":441.092,"end":454.997,"text":"因為呢,多給他一天考試,別人考兩天,他考三天。 那這樣子能夠讓他有充分的時間完成深論題。 俊翰律師說他當時考大學的時候,其實他每題都會寫,可是時間不夠。 所以這是一個"},{"start":458.118,"end":473.315,"text":"很大的問題他讀書期間郡安律師也說他必須要自己拜託麻煩同學做筆記可是他到哈佛大學的時候校方呢請他提早報告為他專門開會召集各部門校方更聘請"},{"start":474.156,"end":502.497,"text":"替俊翰做筆記的同學而且全程保密兼顧學生的隱私。我想從這兩個例子那特別是俊翰律師的難怪他會認為臺灣是第三世界國家。下一頁我想這邊也提醒院長的是身心障礙者其實是多重身份的他不是只有一個身障者身份就像這邊剛剛講的女性會遇到生產甚至要到外縣市大醫院因為產台的問題"},{"start":503.678,"end":521.308,"text":"原住民呢他們也跟我陳情他們有雙重弱勢身份可是我們的國家要求他二選一所以他有時候經常不能夠確定哪一個身份對他是比較好的選擇經濟弱勢的話政府有補助輔具可是政府卻不補助維修"},{"start":522.228,"end":522.788,"text":"這是我們臺灣的處境。下一頁"},{"start":547.088,"end":557.784,"text":"我想請問院長您覺得我們兩位現在跟未來的總統都說要繼承陳俊漢律師的遺志,我們如何可以繼承他的遺志?"},{"start":558.41,"end":587.199,"text":"我想這個CRPD這一個法案實際上在臺灣已經國內法化而且對陸陸續續的按照這樣的一個精神來做但是就如同委員你所提的我們有很多地方還需要再加強還需要再精進的地方那我們會往這個方向來努力那包括了剛才你講的救學救養還有就業的這些部分都需要有加強的地方"},{"start":587.919,"end":616.992,"text":"下一頁謝謝院長所以其實您真的非常關心這個議題您已經知道答案了答案就是我們的身心障礙者權益保障法這次修法因為十幾年沒有修了真的必須要符合我們自己已經簽署掛在衛福部網站上都可以看到細節的身心障礙者就是說權利公約這個CRPD的公約那下一頁那我想請問院長不知道您知不知道身權法"},{"start":617.312,"end":617.392,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":644.785,"end":657.059,"text":"的這個專家學者的審查他也提供了很多寶貴的意見那我們看看國外的意見是怎麼樣我們一起來修那這因為他蠻細節的不過我想聆聽看看這一個委員寶貴的意見"},{"start":658.631,"end":674.968,"text":"謝謝院長您剛講的也都對是講程序上這麼做那我們來看實質下一頁他其實以我的整理有五個重點第一個障礙者要能為自己做決定那因為要落實如果沒有我的參與不要為我做決定"},{"start":675.569,"end":702.298,"text":"因為只有障礙者才知道他的需求是什麼那當時我們修法的爭議我的版本相關的機制要有1 2分障礙者的代表那當時至少衛福部聽起來沒有被說服第二個個人助理服務時數要充足那最近我也聽到陳媽媽講譬如說俊翰他吃飯他可能是需要兩小時可是吃飯的這個助理的時數只能給他半小時"},{"start":703.118,"end":724.646,"text":"所以他算是要用一個半小時要拿他的個人助理其他的時數來用那這個其實就是對家屬來講我們都看到陳媽媽已經幾乎據說全天候的在照顧他了連喘息的空間都沒有所以個人助理服務的時數也就是我想院長很了解我們要不要拿出資源來協助的問題"},{"start":725.566,"end":743.733,"text":"那第三個,障礙者要能夠在地自立生活,所以相關的環境很重要,而不是讓它機構化,機構不應該是唯一的選項。第四個,很多障礙者跟我陳情,臺灣的高科技能力可以做到很好的輔具,可是都是出口。"},{"start":744.233,"end":765.465,"text":"因為臺灣本地沒有市場,就是因為政府補助經費太少,所以他們甚至在臺灣買不到在臺灣的廠商生產的高科技輔具。所以高科技輔具的提供到我剛講的,你補助了輔具,可是卻沒有補助維修,這也是不應該的。"},{"start":767.106,"end":781.476,"text":"最後一個就是我所講的我們所有相關的機制應該要看到多重的弱勢者而不是讓他們自己在不同的系統之間被踢皮球甚至被迫做選擇那這五點"},{"start":782.777,"end":808.284,"text":"就是也是下一頁也是我們最近為下一代而戰我們希望跟您一起提出的集體訴求就是一定要這次行政院的版本本身一定要符合CRPD的國際公約因為上一次修法已經是17年前那我們2017年簽署CRPD國際公約之後本來就應該全面的檢視"},{"start":809.104,"end":834.94,"text":"﹗"},{"start":834.96,"end":861.489,"text":"我想這個我們一定會努力的來請這個衛福部收集相關的意見還有民間修法的建議來盡快提出修法的這個版本那更重要的我也希望在這個整個的這個制定的這個過程當中在大院也能夠得到我們朝野黨團大家的協助真的好好來幫助所有需要幫助的這些身心障礙者我想這是政府的責任我們責無旁貸"},{"start":862.233,"end":876.917,"text":"而一定會努力來盡快的來提出這個修法。好,謝謝院長。所以您承諾我們行政院會提出符合CRPD的生權法。謝謝院長,真的是溫暖內閣。那我也想問時間點,因為其實我們上一屆"},{"start":879.298,"end":880.258,"text":"我們來試試看。我們全力以赴。"},{"start":909.373,"end":923.972,"text":"所以我這邊真的謝謝院長的承諾您的努力我想您是真的願意努力那我希望我們溫暖內閣留下這兩個非常重要是您任內承諾推動甚至能夠提出"},{"start":933.011,"end":939.606,"text":"謝謝范雲委員、謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第三位陳委員御爭質詢。"}]}}}}