{"id":149719,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149719","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a293832ee976c14e6671804b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a677e467243de167255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:24:25 - 11:40:22","影片長度":"00:15:57","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":957,"end_time":"2024-03-12T11:40:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T11:24:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時24分）謝謝主席，有請院長還有國防部部長。"],["主席：請院長及國防部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：沈委員早安，恭喜你當選立委。"],["沈委員伯洋：早，謝謝。","院長好、部長好。今天我的題目非常簡單，就像這個簡報上面看到的，是要來討論卓越中心。但我也不得不說，「卓越中心」這個名詞對大家來講一定都非常陌生，而我覺得它其實滿適合在總質詢這樣一個場合來跟大家介紹一下到底什麼是卓越中心，因為我認為總質詢非常重要的一點是在於，對於重大的政策和方針進行確認，以及了解未來的方向大概是什麼。所以在這邊也希望能夠跟院長稍微對齊一下，就是其實我一直都認為總質詢很重要的一點是，如果能夠書面解決、能夠書面徵詢的話，也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。","第二點就是其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多時間詳細地答復，因為在各國的立法例上，其實官員的答復才是質詢的重點，因為這才可以讓國人知道到底現在即時的、我們對於某件事情的政策到底是什麼，我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的辯論。很可惜的就是，一直以來到現在，我們很多質詢現狀是常常在問一些無關的問題或者是問一些細節，譬如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成，或者是幾年幾月幾號說了什麼話，也不給官員答復，我覺得這是我們現在質詢的一個亂象，所以希望等一下院長跟部長能就這些問題儘量回答，因為這是可以跟國人說明的一個非常好的機會。","我今天其實只有兩個問題，第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關，因為畢竟臺灣現在面臨中國不斷的輿論攻擊，我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面對的問題。第二個問題就是跟卓越中心有關。我的第一個問題最主要的就是，以國人的角度來講，我們想要釐清到底什麼叫做認知作戰？部長可能也很熟悉，其實以中國的用語來講，這就是所謂的「輿論戰」。","做為一個引子，我稍微整理了一下目前國防部有提到認知作戰的狀況，這裡面很多細節當然不一一敘述，我就隨便講一、兩個以紅色標記的部分，譬如說金門失聯兵獲贈廈門房，部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰；又或者說網傳金門二膽島又有逃兵，金防部也有提到其中可能也有認知作戰的技倆。其實以一般國人的角度來講，他的第一個反應通常可能就是：到底什麼是認知作戰？也就是說，今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰，它的標準是什麼？以及譬如說是誰發動的、它的手法是什麼，還有我們應對的方式是什麼？所以在這邊想要先就教於部長，可不可以趁這個機會讓大家知道，以往這些狀況當我們說這是一個認知作戰，我們的標準以及認定的方式大概是什麼樣子？謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，錯假訊息是認知作戰當中最明顯的，它主要的發起原因在哪裡？就是為了要打擊我們不管是軍民士氣等等的，但它對時機點也會選擇，譬如說最近有什麼議題，它就趁機擴大，所以認知作戰的涵義就是說，在當時的狀況，它無聲無息地加進來，讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象，所以這的確是滿嚴重的，會一點一滴地侵染，不要講軍方，民間的心理也會受到很大的影響，所以我們國軍在對認知作戰的防衛方面做得很澈底。","現在基本上因為國家有一個資安防護的應變團隊，我們國防部也是當中的一員，除了配合這個應變團隊的行為舉止以外，我們國防部自己部內的安穩也首當其衝，所以我們簡單講一下，在部內我們平常就注意到怎麼樣防處，讓這些事情不發生，一旦發生了，我們怎麼樣馬上把它給弭平，這是我們克盡職守的方法。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。剛剛部長有提到滿重要的一點其實是在軍心士氣的打擊，又或者是對輿論的影響。在中國的「三戰」裡面，心戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的，剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的，我們有資通電，而我們在輿論上的認定可能會有政戰。國人很容易疑惑的一點是，我以上個禮拜的一份業務報告為例，簡報畫面中最後面畫紅線的部分有提到，中共利用官方媒體、側翼組織、在地協力者，所以很明顯官方媒體是滿重要的一個發動單位。我個人認為當然311基地，就是解放軍61716部隊也是非常重要的，但是因為在報告裡面有提到像「側翼」、「在地協力者」這樣的字眼，我想國人第一個反應一定會是說，誰是在地協力者？又或者今天發生了這個國防部指認是認知作戰的案件，這一個案件誰是在地協力者？我們要怎麼知道他是？關於這一點，國防部有沒有一些可能是準則或者是一些說明？"],["邱部長國正：誠如這整個標題「認知作戰」一樣，在地協力者也是一個認知的問題。主要是有任何訊息對我們不利，也造成一些言論對我們不利而對對方有利，我們就初步認為他是在地協力者。至於他到底是或不是，後面檢調單位會去查，我想每一個人要做任何事情臉上不會貼個標籤，所以他都會看機會。因此，我剛剛一開頭就跟委員報告，認知作戰時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態，他加進去讓我們不知不覺就中了圈套，這就是可怕的地方。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。因為可以很明顯的感覺到，他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式，又或者利用網路大量的假帳號，這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊，但在地協力者有時候可能會說那是他的言論自由，甚至有時候在放大中國言論的還包含我們自己的立法委員，所以就有很多曖昧不清的狀態。這種曖昧不清的狀態，現階段對我們來講，有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙。因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚地告訴大家，誰才是在地協力者，連我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚，更不要說我們可能在相關的準則、綱要很難去把這件事情講清楚。有關這件事情，我會認為如果我們能夠在這個時候又或者在未來的幾週，把這件事情更加確認，畢竟現在發生了金門的事件，對我們來講也是一個很大的威脅，如果這些定義能夠釐清，國人對國防部的信心應該能夠加強。","現在我想要再問的是，我們剛剛講的是標準，就是我們的標準到底是什麼、這是誰發動的、形態有什麼，但接下來我還有一些問題，譬如我們去年面臨潛艦國造的一些謠言。我有整理了一些謠言，大家可以看到黑色的部分就是中國介入的部分，藍色的部分是國內的媒體，紅色的部分是還沒有辦法確認的。也就是在整體的網路裡面，我們發現中國所占的聲量已經超過一半了，所以很明顯地有一個中國在操作的痕跡。另外一個是一年義務役，這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖，因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭，所以我先趕快換下一張，但是可以看到黑色的部分也占了一定的量體。在這兩個案例我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡，包括義務役相關的謠言，還有潛艦國造相關的謠言。國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家，這是認知作戰，我知道國防部可能有自己的不管是國家安全的考量、政策的考量。但我們怕的是，如果今天我們即使確定了我們的標準是什麼，有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰，有一些案件我們說是，有一些案件我們卻沒有發言。在這樣的狀況之下，我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致？不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法？"],["邱部長國正：要訂標準很困難，就好像我們國軍同仁當中，你講哪一個不是忠貞愛國的？他做出一些不管是洩違密或者不留意造成一些困擾，但我們不能講……當然你違背規定了，這規定是既有的，但違背哪些規定要一條一條列出來，對軍中來講沒問題，我可以列出來；但對民間來講，我要很清楚的界定，怎麼樣就認定你是一個在地協力者，我真的沒有辦法！只能從他發出來的訊息當中，最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展，如果真的影響到、有什麼比較違背常理的這種反應，我們就可以判定他是在地協力者，只有這樣來做了。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。部長提的很好，就在於因為界定上非常困難，所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白，不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣。譬如哪一些是比較接近中國操作的認知作戰、哪一些比較不接近，如果我們有具體、如同這邊所列出來一些相關可能的標準。譬如不管是時機、可信度、帳號潛伏的程度等等，如果這些標準可以列在某個準則裡面，讓我們知道在這些標準裡面譬如衝破60%了，可能就會告訴大家這個是嚴重的狀況；如果不是的話，我們可能就先隱而不談，先不界定它是一個認知作戰，這或許是可能的方向。","另外，剛剛部長提到非常重要的一點，今天當國軍釋出訊息的時候，面對的人非常多，他有可能是要講給大眾聽的，有可能是要講給老共聽的，有可能是要講給上級聽的，也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的，但現在的狀況是，有時候我們可能都要藉由部長的嘴，把各個必須要溝通的管道藉由部長講出來，所以有時候所謂的認知作戰，不只是我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準及讓國人知道而已，我們可能還要知道什麼情況下是講給國人聽的，什麼時候是要講給對方聽的，什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的，如果這個也可以有一個準則讓我們知道，相信在對國人的溝通上，以及對國防部認定的信心上，應該都會更加地提升，這是我簡單的一個建議。"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，我剛剛也有講，國防部是國家有關於這方面應變中心的成員，但我們自己部內也有，我們部內要推動的工作剛剛委員已經點出來了，就是很難判別，但我們透過很多管道，不管是調查局也好，軍情局也好，國安局也好，甚至我們本身聯六部門就是負責資通電的單位，我們把一些蒐獲到的狀況都會做分門比較、做分類，所以誠如剛剛委員所講的，分析出來的結果，可以找到哪些是自信的就可以先認定，國防部在這一方面雖然不講說做得很明確，但我們現在有歸類，以後這一類的訊息，我們可以篤定的立刻做反制，我想這也是進一步推動的很重要力量，我們會持續來做這方面的工作。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，我們希望早日能夠把這些標準弄得更清楚。","接下來我想要問的是院長，我覺得這個問題比較尷尬一點，我相信院長對於衛福部等等會比較熟悉。就是有時候解放軍發動的輿論戰攻擊，攻擊的對象不是國防部，譬如他最近攻擊的是海巡，如果他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者農業部，製造大量的謠言，這時候就會造成一個非常尷尬的狀況，因為對方是一個獨裁國家，他的黨政全部是搓在一起，所以雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊，但今天面對攻擊的對象是衛福部，製造跟衛福部相關的謠言，以這樣的狀況來講，是要由國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰，還是要由衛福部出來跟大家說這邊有一個認知作戰？"],["陳院長建仁：我想如果衛福部這邊有能力分辨，衛福部也可以考量宣布有認知作戰的疑慮，如果國防部這邊透過他們對資訊情報的掌握也能夠知道的話，我想也可以讓衛福部跟行政院一起進行。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為時間關係，我先稍微講一下。以衛福部的角度來講，衛福部對於解放軍的手法，說真的，一定沒有國防部瞭解……"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是國防部對於譬如像高端等等之類的，一定也不會那麼熟悉，這也是為什麼我一直覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會的機制，認真去面對這一個所謂的認知作戰，那會變得非常的危險，這也是為什麼今天我在這邊提到的這個標題叫做「卓越中心」。蔡總統在接見波海三國的時候就有提到，其他國家，尤其是北約國家在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰，就是可能有外交的、國防的、民生經濟的攻擊，如果由每個部會單獨面對，就會被各個擊破，所以他們希望有一個卓越中心，大家一起去面對這個混合戰，然後一起分析。","蔡總統那時候提到臺灣應該要有一些單位能夠對接，而臺灣目前來講名稱最像的叫做數發部，然後還有像剛剛部長提到的，偵查工作很多是國安局跟調查局，但其實國防部裡還有一個政戰對這個部分也非常熟悉，但你就會發現我們有點是散在每一個地方，沒有辦法認真去應對，他們有時候一個攻勢可能是3個小時、6個小時，如果我們沒有辦法馬上應對的話，就會形成非常多的困擾。因為在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心，但有沒有可能可以開始開啟這方面的討論，不管是從部長還是院長，畢竟我認為政戰其實還是有非常大的能量，如果能夠針對這件事情討論，我們面對認知作戰的速度應該會變得更快！"],["陳院長建仁：我請部長說明。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，委員這個想法絕對是對的，如果我們國家有這個關於資安應變小組、中心的編制，可以跨各個部會，他有一個主辦單位，但我剛剛也有講，譬如說國防部是當中的一員，但國防部這邊有很多團隊是來支撐這個工作推動的，那委員剛剛講的這個年代就是一個資源共用的年代，環境、資源一定要共用，所以這是極度可以合作的地方。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題，謝謝部長、謝謝院長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員伯洋的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第2位吳委員宗憲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 928.868, \"end\": 929.029, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 929.029, \"end\": 929.209, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 929.209, \"end\": 929.749, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 929.749, \"end\": 929.949, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 929.949, \"end\": 930.169, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 930.169, \"end\": 930.369, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 930.369, \"end\": 930.389, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 931.708, \"end\": 931.808, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 931.808, \"end\": 932.068, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"伯\", \"start\": 932.068, \"end\": 932.328, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 932.328, \"end\": 932.529, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 932.529, \"end\": 932.709, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 932.709, \"end\": 932.869, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 932.869, \"end\": 932.989, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 932.989, \"end\": 933.069, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 933.069, \"end\": 933.269, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 933.269, \"end\": 933.449, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 933.449, \"end\": 933.869, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"登\", \"start\": 933.869, \"end\": 933.889, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 933.889, \"end\": 934.049, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 934.049, \"end\": 934.129, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 934.129, \"end\": 934.189, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 934.189, \"end\": 934.29, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 934.29, \"end\": 934.31, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"線\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:13,025 --> 00:00:30,565\n謝謝主席,那有請院長還有國防部部長,謝謝。我請陳院長及國防部備選。沈委員早安,恭喜你當選例人。好,早,謝謝。等一下部長。\n\n2\n00:00:38,424 --> 00:01:01,424\n好,院長好、部長好。那今天呢我的題目非常的簡單,就像這個簡報上面看到的,就是在討論這個卓越中心。那但我也不得不說,其實卓越中心這個名詞呢對大家來講一定都非常的陌生。那我覺得它其實蠻適合在總諮詢這樣的一個場合來跟大家介紹一下就是到底是什麼是卓越中心。因為我認為總諮詢非常重要的一點是在於\n\n3\n00:01:01,769 --> 00:01:01,789\n﹚廣告\n\n4\n00:01:12,550 --> 00:01:33,550\n總質詢很重要的一點是,如果能夠書面解決,能夠書面徵詢的,我們也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。那第二點就是呢,其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多的時間,詳細的答覆。因為呢在各國的立法例上,其實官員的答覆才是質詢的重點。因為這才是可以讓國人知道到底現在及時的我們對於這個政策到底是什麼。那我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的一些辯論。\n\n5\n00:01:35,832 --> 00:02:04,346\n那很可惜的就是一直以來我們到現在我們很多的這個質詢的現狀常常問一些無關的問題然後問一些細節比如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成或幾年幾月幾號說了什麼話那也不給官員答覆那我覺得這個是一個我們現在質詢的一個亂象所以希望等一下就是就這些問題這個院長跟部長就盡量的回答因為這是一個跟國人可以說明的一個非常好的機會那我今天其實就只有兩個問題\n\n6\n00:02:05,627 --> 00:02:33,648\n第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關因為畢竟台灣現在面臨這個中國不斷輿論的攻擊之下我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面臨的問題那第二個問題呢就是跟卓越中心有關所以第一個問題呢最主要的就是說我們想要釐清以國人的角度來講到底什麼叫做認知作戰那部長可能也很熟悉就是其實以這個中國的用語來講就是所謂的輿論戰所以呢從作為一個影子我稍微整理了一下就是\n\n7\n00:02:34,409 --> 00:02:55,782\n目前這個國防部有提到認知作戰的一個狀況,這裡面很多細節當然不一一過去,但我就隨便講一兩個紅色的部分,比如說這個金門的失聯兵或在廈門房這個部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰,又或者說這個網傳金門二單島又有逃兵,那這邊也有提到有可能有認知作戰的伎倆。\n\n8\n00:02:57,063 --> 00:03:18,291\n那其實以一般國人的角度來講他的第一個反應可能通常就會是到底什麼是認知作戰也就是說我們今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰他的標準是什麼然後以及譬如說是誰發動的他的手法是什麼還有我們應對的方式是什麼所以在這邊想要先就教於部長趁這個機會讓大家知道說以往過去這些狀況我們說這個是一個認知作戰那我們的標準\n\n9\n00:03:24,853 --> 00:03:45,247\n然後以及我們認定的方式大概是什麼樣子?謝謝。我跟委員報告,這個錯角訊息是一個最認知作戰當中最明顯的。它主要發起的原因在哪裡?就為了要打擊我們,不管軍民實現士氣等等。但它的時機點它也會選擇,比如說最近有什麼議題,它會趁機擴大。\n\n10\n00:03:47,679 --> 00:04:16,153\n所以認知作戰的含義就是說在當時的狀況它無聲無息的加進來讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象所以這的確是蠻嚴重的一點一滴的會影響到不要講說軍方民間的心理也會受到很大影響所以我們在這一方面國軍在對認知作戰防衛方面是做得很徹底那我們現在基本上因為國家有一個治安防護的一個\n\n11\n00:04:16,721 --> 00:04:17,421\n臨時提案委員：沈伯洋\n\n12\n00:04:43,397 --> 00:05:04,669\n謝謝部長那剛剛部長有提到其實蠻重要的一點是在於軍心士氣的一個打擊那又或者我們對於輿論的一個影響那在中國的這個三戰裡面的新戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的那剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的我們有自動電那我們在這個輿論戰的認定可能會有政戰但我現在會國人很容易疑惑的一點是我這邊用這個這個上個禮拜這個的一個業務報告為例\n\n13\n00:05:08,442 --> 00:05:33,136\n就是這邊在最後面畫紅線的這個部分有提到中共利用了這個官方媒體側翼組織在地協力者所以很明顯官方媒體是蠻重要的一個發動單位那我個人認為當然311基地就是解放軍有61716部隊也是非常重要的但是因為在報告裡面有提到像側翼在地協力者這樣的一個字眼那我想國人第一個反應一定會是說那誰是在地協力者\n\n14\n00:05:33,556 --> 00:05:58,469\n又或者說今天發生的這個國防部指認是一個認知作戰的案件。那今天這個案件誰是在地協力者?我們要怎麼知道他是?那關於這一點國防部有沒有有一些可能準則啊或者一些說明?跟委員報陳福這個整個標題是認知作戰一樣。那在地協力者也是一個認知的問題。我們只要講你有任何訊息對我們反而不利。\n\n15\n00:05:58,854 --> 00:06:17,176\n以造成一些言論對我們不利,對他對方有利,這我就初步就認為他在地協力者。但至於他到底是或不是,那後面不管檢調單位他會去查。我想每一個人他做任何事情,他臉上不會貼了一個標籤。\n\n16\n00:06:18,536 --> 00:06:33,168\n所以他這個看機會所以我一開頭就跟委員報告他這個認知作戰時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態他加進去讓我們不知不覺的就中到這個圈套這就是可怕的地方\n\n17\n00:06:34,020 --> 00:06:52,402\n謝謝部長,因為這邊就是可以明顯的感覺到就是當然他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式又或者說網路大量的假帳號這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定它是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊但有時候在地協力者有時候他可能會說那是他的言論自由\n\n18\n00:06:52,802 --> 00:07:15,069\n甚至有時候在放大中國言論還包含我們自己的立法委員所以有時候就很多曖昧不清的狀態那這種曖昧不清的狀態現階段對我們來講有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚的告訴大家誰才是在地協力者因為我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚那更不要講說我們可能在相關的準則、藥缸\n\n19\n00:07:16,229 --> 00:07:17,130\n現在我想要再問的是我們剛剛講的是標準\n\n20\n00:07:37,910 --> 00:07:38,130\n沈伯洋沈伯洋\n\n21\n00:07:53,846 --> 00:07:54,347\n沈伯洋\n\n22\n00:08:10,274 --> 00:08:36,316\n另外一個是一言一物議,這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖,因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭,所以我先趕快換下一張。但也可以看到那個黑色的部分也佔了一定的量體。但是在這兩個案例,我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡,一物議相關的謠言,然後還有這個潛艦國造相關的謠言。但國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家這是認知作戰。\n\n23\n00:08:37,037 --> 00:08:58,782\n那我知道國防部可能有自己的,譬如說不管是國家安全的考量啊、政策的考量,但是我們在怕的事情就是說,如果我們今天即使確定了我們的標準是什麼,我們有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰。但有一些案件我們說是,有些案件我們沒有發言。那在這樣的狀況之下我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致,不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法?\n\n24\n00:08:59,082 --> 00:09:26,015\n我跟委員報告啊,要定一個標準都很困難的。就好像講上午國軍同仁當中,你知道哪一個他不是忠誠愛國的,但他又做出一些啊,不管是一些違密啊,或者他不留意,造成一些困擾。但我們不能講,哎,界定,你違背規定了,這規定是既有的。但違背哪些規定,你要一條條列出來,對軍中來講沒問題,我可以列出來。但對民間來講,我要做很清楚的界定。\n\n25\n00:09:26,488 --> 00:09:49,083\n怎麼樣我就認定你是一個在地協力者我真的沒有辦法只能看他從這個發出來的信息當中最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展有什麼影響到我們真的有什麼其他很比較違背常理的這種反應的話那我們就可以慢慢判定他是在地協力者\n\n26\n00:09:49,935 --> 00:10:12,824\n只有這樣來做的。謝謝,那部長你這邊提的很好,就是在於說因為它非常困難嘛,界定上它非常的困難。所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白,不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣。比如說哪一些是比較接近中國的操作的認知作戰,哪一些比較不接近。如果我們有具體的,比如說這邊有列出來一些相關可能的一些標準,我稍微往後一點。\n\n27\n00:10:13,684 --> 00:10:25,593\n就是呢,譬如說不管是這個時機啦、可信度啦、帳號潛伏的程度啦等等之類的,如果這個可以在某個準則裡面,然後我們知道說在這些標準裡面,譬如說它超過60%了,我們可能就會告訴大家這個是一個嚴重的狀況。\n\n28\n00:10:28,835 --> 00:10:45,485\n那如果不是的話呢我們可能就先隱而不談先不界定他是一個認知作戰這或許是可能的一個方向那另外剛剛部長也提到非常重要的一點就是當今天國軍釋出訊息的時候面對的人非常多他有可能是要講給大眾聽的有可能是要講給老共聽的\n\n29\n00:10:45,865 --> 00:11:07,134\n有可能是要講給上級聽的,也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的,但現在的狀況有時候我們都可能藉由部長的嘴裡去把各個必須要溝通的管道可能都是由部長講出來。所以有時候認知作戰它不只是說我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準跟國人知道而已,我們可能還要知道說什麼情況下我們是講給國人聽的。\n\n30\n00:11:08,374 --> 00:11:35,346\n什麼時候是要講給對方聽的?什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的?這個如果也可以有一個準則讓我們知道的話,我相信這個在我們對國人的溝通上以及對國防部認定這件信心上面應該會有更加為的提升。這是我簡單的一個建議。我跟委員也報告,我們初步我剛剛有講我們國防部是一個國家有關於這種應變的中心的一個成員,但我們自己部內也有。\n\n31\n00:11:35,865 --> 00:11:45,719\n我們不能推動工作剛剛委員已經點出來了就很難叛變以外但我們有透過很多管道就不管調查局也好我們軍情局也好國安局也好\n\n32\n00:11:46,357 --> 00:11:46,777\n沈伯洋委員\n\n33\n00:12:07,964 --> 00:12:10,646\n接下來我想要問的是院長,就是說我覺得這個問題是比較尷尬一點,因為我相信院長對衛福部等等會比較熟悉。\n\n34\n00:12:29,036 --> 00:12:56,127\n就是說呢有時候是解放軍發動了輿論戰的攻擊那他攻擊的對象不是國防部他最近攻擊了海巡嘛他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者攻擊的是我們的農業部製造大量的謠言那這時候就造成一個非常尷尬的狀況因為對方是一個獨裁的國家他的黨陣全部是全部是搓在一起的所以他今天雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊但他今天面對他攻擊的對象是衛福部製造跟衛福部相關的謠言那以這樣的狀況來講\n\n35\n00:12:57,347 --> 00:13:20,223\n是因為國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰還是要衛福部出來來跟大家講說這邊有一個認知作戰我想如果衛福部這邊有能力去分辨的時候呢那衛福部也可以來宣布有這樣的一個認知作戰的疑慮的考量那如果國防部這邊也是透過他們的\n\n36\n00:13:21,064 --> 00:13:24,828\n因為以衛福部的角度來講,衛福部對於解放軍的手法說真的一定是沒有國防不了解。\n\n37\n00:13:38,283 --> 00:14:07,438\n但是說真的國防部對於比如說像高端啊等等之類的一定也不會那麼的熟悉所以這也是為什麼呢就是我一直都覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會認認真的去面對這一個所謂認知作戰的機制的話會變得非常的危險所以這也是為什麼我在這邊有提到就是我們今天的這個標題叫做這個卓越中心那蔡總統其實在這一個面這個波海這個三國的時候呢就有講到說因為其他的國家尤其是北約的國家\n\n38\n00:14:07,978 --> 00:14:36,327\n他們在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰他可能有外交的可能有國防的可能有民生經濟的攻擊你每一個部會單獨面對就是被各個擊破所以他們希望有一個中心就是卓越中心大家一起去面對這個混合戰然後一起來做分析那蔡總統那時候有提到說台灣應該有一些單位能夠對接那因為台灣目前來講名稱最像的有一個在速發部然後還有像剛剛部長提到的有時候在偵查很多是國安局跟調查局\n\n39\n00:14:36,727 --> 00:15:01,842\n但其實國防部裡面還有一個政戰對這個部分其實也是非常的熟悉那你就會發現我們有點散在每一個地方沒有辦法認真的去應對他們有時候這個一個公事可能是三個小時六個小時如果我們沒有辦法馬上去應對的話會形成非常多的困擾所以我們才想說因為現在在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心但是有沒有可能開始可以開啟這方面的討論不管是從部長還是院長\n\n40\n00:15:02,842 --> 00:15:30,389\n畢竟其實我認為政戰還是有非常大的一個能量,如果能夠針對這些事情來討論的話,我們去面對認知作戰的速度應該可能會變得更快。我跟委員報告,委員這個想法絕對對的,我們問國家有關於這個治安的應變,小組、中心、邊層,他就跨各個部會,他有個主辦單位,但我剛我有講的,譬如說國防部是當初議員,但國防部裡面這邊有很多團隊,\n\n41\n00:15:31,708 --> 00:15:34,310\n謝謝沈委員伯洋的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二位吳委員中線質詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13025\t30565\t謝謝主席,那有請院長還有國防部部長,謝謝。我請陳院長及國防部備選。沈委員早安,恭喜你當選例人。好,早,謝謝。等一下部長。\n38424\t61424\t好,院長好、部長好。那今天呢我的題目非常的簡單,就像這個簡報上面看到的,就是在討論這個卓越中心。那但我也不得不說,其實卓越中心這個名詞呢對大家來講一定都非常的陌生。那我覺得它其實蠻適合在總諮詢這樣的一個場合來跟大家介紹一下就是到底是什麼是卓越中心。因為我認為總諮詢非常重要的一點是在於\n61769\t61789\t﹚廣告\n72550\t93550\t總質詢很重要的一點是,如果能夠書面解決,能夠書面徵詢的,我們也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。那第二點就是呢,其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多的時間,詳細的答覆。因為呢在各國的立法例上,其實官員的答覆才是質詢的重點。因為這才是可以讓國人知道到底現在及時的我們對於這個政策到底是什麼。那我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的一些辯論。\n95832\t124346\t那很可惜的就是一直以來我們到現在我們很多的這個質詢的現狀常常問一些無關的問題然後問一些細節比如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成或幾年幾月幾號說了什麼話那也不給官員答覆那我覺得這個是一個我們現在質詢的一個亂象所以希望等一下就是就這些問題這個院長跟部長就盡量的回答因為這是一個跟國人可以說明的一個非常好的機會那我今天其實就只有兩個問題\n125627\t153648\t第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關因為畢竟台灣現在面臨這個中國不斷輿論的攻擊之下我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面臨的問題那第二個問題呢就是跟卓越中心有關所以第一個問題呢最主要的就是說我們想要釐清以國人的角度來講到底什麼叫做認知作戰那部長可能也很熟悉就是其實以這個中國的用語來講就是所謂的輿論戰所以呢從作為一個影子我稍微整理了一下就是\n154409\t175782\t目前這個國防部有提到認知作戰的一個狀況,這裡面很多細節當然不一一過去,但我就隨便講一兩個紅色的部分,比如說這個金門的失聯兵或在廈門房這個部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰,又或者說這個網傳金門二單島又有逃兵,那這邊也有提到有可能有認知作戰的伎倆。\n177063\t198291\t那其實以一般國人的角度來講他的第一個反應可能通常就會是到底什麼是認知作戰也就是說我們今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰他的標準是什麼然後以及譬如說是誰發動的他的手法是什麼還有我們應對的方式是什麼所以在這邊想要先就教於部長趁這個機會讓大家知道說以往過去這些狀況我們說這個是一個認知作戰那我們的標準\n204853\t225247\t然後以及我們認定的方式大概是什麼樣子?謝謝。我跟委員報告,這個錯角訊息是一個最認知作戰當中最明顯的。它主要發起的原因在哪裡?就為了要打擊我們,不管軍民實現士氣等等。但它的時機點它也會選擇,比如說最近有什麼議題,它會趁機擴大。\n227679\t256153\t所以認知作戰的含義就是說在當時的狀況它無聲無息的加進來讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象所以這的確是蠻嚴重的一點一滴的會影響到不要講說軍方民間的心理也會受到很大影響所以我們在這一方面國軍在對認知作戰防衛方面是做得很徹底那我們現在基本上因為國家有一個治安防護的一個\n256721\t257421\t臨時提案委員：沈伯洋\n283397\t304669\t謝謝部長那剛剛部長有提到其實蠻重要的一點是在於軍心士氣的一個打擊那又或者我們對於輿論的一個影響那在中國的這個三戰裡面的新戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的那剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的我們有自動電那我們在這個輿論戰的認定可能會有政戰但我現在會國人很容易疑惑的一點是我這邊用這個這個上個禮拜這個的一個業務報告為例\n308442\t333136\t就是這邊在最後面畫紅線的這個部分有提到中共利用了這個官方媒體側翼組織在地協力者所以很明顯官方媒體是蠻重要的一個發動單位那我個人認為當然311基地就是解放軍有61716部隊也是非常重要的但是因為在報告裡面有提到像側翼在地協力者這樣的一個字眼那我想國人第一個反應一定會是說那誰是在地協力者\n333556\t358469\t又或者說今天發生的這個國防部指認是一個認知作戰的案件。那今天這個案件誰是在地協力者?我們要怎麼知道他是?那關於這一點國防部有沒有有一些可能準則啊或者一些說明?跟委員報陳福這個整個標題是認知作戰一樣。那在地協力者也是一個認知的問題。我們只要講你有任何訊息對我們反而不利。\n358854\t377176\t以造成一些言論對我們不利,對他對方有利,這我就初步就認為他在地協力者。但至於他到底是或不是,那後面不管檢調單位他會去查。我想每一個人他做任何事情,他臉上不會貼了一個標籤。\n378536\t393168\t所以他這個看機會所以我一開頭就跟委員報告他這個認知作戰時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態他加進去讓我們不知不覺的就中到這個圈套這就是可怕的地方\n394020\t412402\t謝謝部長,因為這邊就是可以明顯的感覺到就是當然他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式又或者說網路大量的假帳號這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定它是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊但有時候在地協力者有時候他可能會說那是他的言論自由\n412802\t435069\t甚至有時候在放大中國言論還包含我們自己的立法委員所以有時候就很多曖昧不清的狀態那這種曖昧不清的狀態現階段對我們來講有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚的告訴大家誰才是在地協力者因為我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚那更不要講說我們可能在相關的準則、藥缸\n436229\t437130\t現在我想要再問的是 我們剛剛講的是標準\n457910\t458130\t沈伯洋 沈伯洋\n473846\t474347\t沈伯洋\n490274\t516316\t另外一個是一言一物議,這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖,因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭,所以我先趕快換下一張。但也可以看到那個黑色的部分也佔了一定的量體。但是在這兩個案例,我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡,一物議相關的謠言,然後還有這個潛艦國造相關的謠言。但國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家這是認知作戰。\n517037\t538782\t那我知道國防部可能有自己的,譬如說不管是國家安全的考量啊、政策的考量,但是我們在怕的事情就是說,如果我們今天即使確定了我們的標準是什麼,我們有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰。但有一些案件我們說是,有些案件我們沒有發言。那在這樣的狀況之下我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致,不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法?\n539082\t566015\t我跟委員報告啊,要定一個標準都很困難的。就好像講上午國軍同仁當中,你知道哪一個他不是忠誠愛國的,但他又做出一些啊,不管是一些違密啊,或者他不留意,造成一些困擾。但我們不能講,哎,界定,你違背規定了,這規定是既有的。但違背哪些規定,你要一條條列出來,對軍中來講沒問題,我可以列出來。但對民間來講,我要做很清楚的界定。\n566488\t589083\t怎麼樣我就認定你是一個在地協力者我真的沒有辦法只能看他從這個發出來的信息當中最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展有什麼影響到我們真的有什麼其他很比較違背常理的這種反應的話那我們就可以慢慢判定他是在地協力者\n589935\t612824\t只有這樣來做的。謝謝,那部長你這邊提的很好,就是在於說因為它非常困難嘛,界定上它非常的困難。所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白,不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣。比如說哪一些是比較接近中國的操作的認知作戰,哪一些比較不接近。如果我們有具體的,比如說這邊有列出來一些相關可能的一些標準,我稍微往後一點。\n613684\t625593\t就是呢,譬如說不管是這個時機啦、可信度啦、帳號潛伏的程度啦等等之類的,如果這個可以在某個準則裡面,然後我們知道說在這些標準裡面,譬如說它超過60%了,我們可能就會告訴大家這個是一個嚴重的狀況。\n628835\t645485\t那如果不是的話呢我們可能就先隱而不談先不界定他是一個認知作戰這或許是可能的一個方向那另外剛剛部長也提到非常重要的一點就是當今天國軍釋出訊息的時候面對的人非常多他有可能是要講給大眾聽的有可能是要講給老共聽的\n645865\t667134\t有可能是要講給上級聽的,也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的,但現在的狀況有時候我們都可能藉由部長的嘴裡去把各個必須要溝通的管道可能都是由部長講出來。所以有時候認知作戰它不只是說我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準跟國人知道而已,我們可能還要知道說什麼情況下我們是講給國人聽的。\n668374\t695346\t什麼時候是要講給對方聽的?什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的?這個如果也可以有一個準則讓我們知道的話,我相信這個在我們對國人的溝通上以及對國防部認定這件信心上面應該會有更加為的提升。這是我簡單的一個建議。我跟委員也報告,我們初步我剛剛有講我們國防部是一個國家有關於這種應變的中心的一個成員,但我們自己部內也有。\n695865\t705719\t我們不能推動工作剛剛委員已經點出來了就很難叛變以外但我們有透過很多管道就不管調查局也好我們軍情局也好國安局也好\n706357\t706777\t沈伯洋委員\n727964\t730646\t接下來我想要問的是院長,就是說我覺得這個問題是比較尷尬一點,因為我相信院長對衛福部等等會比較熟悉。\n749036\t776127\t就是說呢有時候是解放軍發動了輿論戰的攻擊那他攻擊的對象不是國防部他最近攻擊了海巡嘛他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者攻擊的是我們的農業部製造大量的謠言那這時候就造成一個非常尷尬的狀況因為對方是一個獨裁的國家他的黨陣全部是全部是搓在一起的所以他今天雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊但他今天面對他攻擊的對象是衛福部製造跟衛福部相關的謠言那以這樣的狀況來講\n777347\t800223\t是因為國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰還是要衛福部出來來跟大家講說這邊有一個認知作戰我想如果衛福部這邊有能力去分辨的時候呢那衛福部也可以來宣布有這樣的一個認知作戰的疑慮的考量那如果國防部這邊也是透過他們的\n801064\t804828\t因為以衛福部的角度來講,衛福部對於解放軍的手法說真的一定是沒有國防不了解。\n818283\t847438\t但是說真的國防部對於比如說像高端啊等等之類的一定也不會那麼的熟悉所以這也是為什麼呢就是我一直都覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會認認真的去面對這一個所謂認知作戰的機制的話會變得非常的危險所以這也是為什麼我在這邊有提到就是我們今天的這個標題叫做這個卓越中心那蔡總統其實在這一個面這個波海這個三國的時候呢就有講到說因為其他的國家尤其是北約的國家\n847978\t876327\t他們在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰他可能有外交的可能有國防的可能有民生經濟的攻擊你每一個部會單獨面對就是被各個擊破所以他們希望有一個中心就是卓越中心大家一起去面對這個混合戰然後一起來做分析那蔡總統那時候有提到說台灣應該有一些單位能夠對接那因為台灣目前來講名稱最像的有一個在速發部然後還有像剛剛部長提到的有時候在偵查很多是國安局跟調查局\n876727\t901842\t但其實國防部裡面還有一個政戰對這個部分其實也是非常的熟悉那你就會發現我們有點散在每一個地方沒有辦法認真的去應對他們有時候這個一個公事可能是三個小時六個小時如果我們沒有辦法馬上去應對的話會形成非常多的困擾所以我們才想說因為現在在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心但是有沒有可能開始可以開啟這方面的討論不管是從部長還是院長\n902842\t930389\t畢竟其實我認為政戰還是有非常大的一個能量,如果能夠針對這些事情來討論的話,我們去面對認知作戰的速度應該可能會變得更快。我跟委員報告,委員這個想法絕對對的,我們問國家有關於這個治安的應變,小組、中心、邊層,他就跨各個部會,他有個主辦單位,但我剛我有講的,譬如說國防部是當初議員,但國防部裡面這邊有很多團隊,\n931708\t934310\t謝謝沈委員伯洋的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二位吳委員中線質詢。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,那有請院長還有國防部部長,謝謝。我請陳院長及國防部備選。沈委員早安,恭喜你當選例人。好,早,謝謝。等一下部長。\n好,院長好、部長好。那今天呢我的題目非常的簡單,就像這個簡報上面看到的,就是在討論這個卓越中心。那但我也不得不說,其實卓越中心這個名詞呢對大家來講一定都非常的陌生。那我覺得它其實蠻適合在總諮詢這樣的一個場合來跟大家介紹一下就是到底是什麼是卓越中心。因為我認為總諮詢非常重要的一點是在於\n﹚廣告\n總質詢很重要的一點是,如果能夠書面解決,能夠書面徵詢的,我們也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。那第二點就是呢,其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多的時間,詳細的答覆。因為呢在各國的立法例上,其實官員的答覆才是質詢的重點。因為這才是可以讓國人知道到底現在及時的我們對於這個政策到底是什麼。那我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的一些辯論。\n那很可惜的就是一直以來我們到現在我們很多的這個質詢的現狀常常問一些無關的問題然後問一些細節比如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成或幾年幾月幾號說了什麼話那也不給官員答覆那我覺得這個是一個我們現在質詢的一個亂象所以希望等一下就是就這些問題這個院長跟部長就盡量的回答因為這是一個跟國人可以說明的一個非常好的機會那我今天其實就只有兩個問題\n第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關因為畢竟台灣現在面臨這個中國不斷輿論的攻擊之下我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面臨的問題那第二個問題呢就是跟卓越中心有關所以第一個問題呢最主要的就是說我們想要釐清以國人的角度來講到底什麼叫做認知作戰那部長可能也很熟悉就是其實以這個中國的用語來講就是所謂的輿論戰所以呢從作為一個影子我稍微整理了一下就是\n目前這個國防部有提到認知作戰的一個狀況,這裡面很多細節當然不一一過去,但我就隨便講一兩個紅色的部分,比如說這個金門的失聯兵或在廈門房這個部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰,又或者說這個網傳金門二單島又有逃兵,那這邊也有提到有可能有認知作戰的伎倆。\n那其實以一般國人的角度來講他的第一個反應可能通常就會是到底什麼是認知作戰也就是說我們今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰他的標準是什麼然後以及譬如說是誰發動的他的手法是什麼還有我們應對的方式是什麼所以在這邊想要先就教於部長趁這個機會讓大家知道說以往過去這些狀況我們說這個是一個認知作戰那我們的標準\n然後以及我們認定的方式大概是什麼樣子?謝謝。我跟委員報告,這個錯角訊息是一個最認知作戰當中最明顯的。它主要發起的原因在哪裡?就為了要打擊我們,不管軍民實現士氣等等。但它的時機點它也會選擇,比如說最近有什麼議題,它會趁機擴大。\n所以認知作戰的含義就是說在當時的狀況它無聲無息的加進來讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象所以這的確是蠻嚴重的一點一滴的會影響到不要講說軍方民間的心理也會受到很大影響所以我們在這一方面國軍在對認知作戰防衛方面是做得很徹底那我們現在基本上因為國家有一個治安防護的一個\n臨時提案委員：沈伯洋\n謝謝部長那剛剛部長有提到其實蠻重要的一點是在於軍心士氣的一個打擊那又或者我們對於輿論的一個影響那在中國的這個三戰裡面的新戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的那剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的我們有自動電那我們在這個輿論戰的認定可能會有政戰但我現在會國人很容易疑惑的一點是我這邊用這個這個上個禮拜這個的一個業務報告為例\n就是這邊在最後面畫紅線的這個部分有提到中共利用了這個官方媒體側翼組織在地協力者所以很明顯官方媒體是蠻重要的一個發動單位那我個人認為當然311基地就是解放軍有61716部隊也是非常重要的但是因為在報告裡面有提到像側翼在地協力者這樣的一個字眼那我想國人第一個反應一定會是說那誰是在地協力者\n又或者說今天發生的這個國防部指認是一個認知作戰的案件。那今天這個案件誰是在地協力者?我們要怎麼知道他是?那關於這一點國防部有沒有有一些可能準則啊或者一些說明?跟委員報陳福這個整個標題是認知作戰一樣。那在地協力者也是一個認知的問題。我們只要講你有任何訊息對我們反而不利。\n以造成一些言論對我們不利,對他對方有利,這我就初步就認為他在地協力者。但至於他到底是或不是,那後面不管檢調單位他會去查。我想每一個人他做任何事情,他臉上不會貼了一個標籤。\n所以他這個看機會所以我一開頭就跟委員報告他這個認知作戰時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態他加進去讓我們不知不覺的就中到這個圈套這就是可怕的地方\n謝謝部長,因為這邊就是可以明顯的感覺到就是當然他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式又或者說網路大量的假帳號這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定它是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊但有時候在地協力者有時候他可能會說那是他的言論自由\n甚至有時候在放大中國言論還包含我們自己的立法委員所以有時候就很多曖昧不清的狀態那這種曖昧不清的狀態現階段對我們來講有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚的告訴大家誰才是在地協力者因為我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚那更不要講說我們可能在相關的準則、藥缸\n現在我想要再問的是 我們剛剛講的是標準\n沈伯洋 沈伯洋\n沈伯洋\n另外一個是一言一物議,這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖,因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭,所以我先趕快換下一張。但也可以看到那個黑色的部分也佔了一定的量體。但是在這兩個案例,我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡,一物議相關的謠言,然後還有這個潛艦國造相關的謠言。但國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家這是認知作戰。\n那我知道國防部可能有自己的,譬如說不管是國家安全的考量啊、政策的考量,但是我們在怕的事情就是說,如果我們今天即使確定了我們的標準是什麼,我們有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰。但有一些案件我們說是,有些案件我們沒有發言。那在這樣的狀況之下我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致,不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法?\n我跟委員報告啊,要定一個標準都很困難的。就好像講上午國軍同仁當中,你知道哪一個他不是忠誠愛國的,但他又做出一些啊,不管是一些違密啊,或者他不留意,造成一些困擾。但我們不能講,哎,界定,你違背規定了,這規定是既有的。但違背哪些規定,你要一條條列出來,對軍中來講沒問題,我可以列出來。但對民間來講,我要做很清楚的界定。\n怎麼樣我就認定你是一個在地協力者我真的沒有辦法只能看他從這個發出來的信息當中最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展有什麼影響到我們真的有什麼其他很比較違背常理的這種反應的話那我們就可以慢慢判定他是在地協力者\n只有這樣來做的。謝謝,那部長你這邊提的很好,就是在於說因為它非常困難嘛,界定上它非常的困難。所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白,不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣。比如說哪一些是比較接近中國的操作的認知作戰,哪一些比較不接近。如果我們有具體的,比如說這邊有列出來一些相關可能的一些標準,我稍微往後一點。\n就是呢,譬如說不管是這個時機啦、可信度啦、帳號潛伏的程度啦等等之類的,如果這個可以在某個準則裡面,然後我們知道說在這些標準裡面,譬如說它超過60%了,我們可能就會告訴大家這個是一個嚴重的狀況。\n那如果不是的話呢我們可能就先隱而不談先不界定他是一個認知作戰這或許是可能的一個方向那另外剛剛部長也提到非常重要的一點就是當今天國軍釋出訊息的時候面對的人非常多他有可能是要講給大眾聽的有可能是要講給老共聽的\n有可能是要講給上級聽的,也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的,但現在的狀況有時候我們都可能藉由部長的嘴裡去把各個必須要溝通的管道可能都是由部長講出來。所以有時候認知作戰它不只是說我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準跟國人知道而已,我們可能還要知道說什麼情況下我們是講給國人聽的。\n什麼時候是要講給對方聽的?什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的?這個如果也可以有一個準則讓我們知道的話,我相信這個在我們對國人的溝通上以及對國防部認定這件信心上面應該會有更加為的提升。這是我簡單的一個建議。我跟委員也報告,我們初步我剛剛有講我們國防部是一個國家有關於這種應變的中心的一個成員,但我們自己部內也有。\n我們不能推動工作剛剛委員已經點出來了就很難叛變以外但我們有透過很多管道就不管調查局也好我們軍情局也好國安局也好\n沈伯洋委員\n接下來我想要問的是院長,就是說我覺得這個問題是比較尷尬一點,因為我相信院長對衛福部等等會比較熟悉。\n就是說呢有時候是解放軍發動了輿論戰的攻擊那他攻擊的對象不是國防部他最近攻擊了海巡嘛他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者攻擊的是我們的農業部製造大量的謠言那這時候就造成一個非常尷尬的狀況因為對方是一個獨裁的國家他的黨陣全部是全部是搓在一起的所以他今天雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊但他今天面對他攻擊的對象是衛福部製造跟衛福部相關的謠言那以這樣的狀況來講\n是因為國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰還是要衛福部出來來跟大家講說這邊有一個認知作戰我想如果衛福部這邊有能力去分辨的時候呢那衛福部也可以來宣布有這樣的一個認知作戰的疑慮的考量那如果國防部這邊也是透過他們的\n因為以衛福部的角度來講,衛福部對於解放軍的手法說真的一定是沒有國防不了解。\n但是說真的國防部對於比如說像高端啊等等之類的一定也不會那麼的熟悉所以這也是為什麼呢就是我一直都覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會認認真的去面對這一個所謂認知作戰的機制的話會變得非常的危險所以這也是為什麼我在這邊有提到就是我們今天的這個標題叫做這個卓越中心那蔡總統其實在這一個面這個波海這個三國的時候呢就有講到說因為其他的國家尤其是北約的國家\n他們在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰他可能有外交的可能有國防的可能有民生經濟的攻擊你每一個部會單獨面對就是被各個擊破所以他們希望有一個中心就是卓越中心大家一起去面對這個混合戰然後一起來做分析那蔡總統那時候有提到說台灣應該有一些單位能夠對接那因為台灣目前來講名稱最像的有一個在速發部然後還有像剛剛部長提到的有時候在偵查很多是國安局跟調查局\n但其實國防部裡面還有一個政戰對這個部分其實也是非常的熟悉那你就會發現我們有點散在每一個地方沒有辦法認真的去應對他們有時候這個一個公事可能是三個小時六個小時如果我們沒有辦法馬上去應對的話會形成非常多的困擾所以我們才想說因為現在在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心但是有沒有可能開始可以開啟這方面的討論不管是從部長還是院長\n畢竟其實我認為政戰還是有非常大的一個能量,如果能夠針對這些事情來討論的話,我們去面對認知作戰的速度應該可能會變得更快。我跟委員報告,委員這個想法絕對對的,我們問國家有關於這個治安的應變,小組、中心、邊層,他就跨各個部會,他有個主辦單位,但我剛我有講的,譬如說國防部是當初議員,但國防部裡面這邊有很多團隊,\n謝謝沈委員伯洋的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二位吳委員中線質詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.025 --> 00:30.565\n謝謝主席,那有請院長還有國防部部長,謝謝。我請陳院長及國防部備選。沈委員早安,恭喜你當選例人。好,早,謝謝。等一下部長。\n\n00:38.424 --> 01:01.424\n好,院長好、部長好。那今天呢我的題目非常的簡單,就像這個簡報上面看到的,就是在討論這個卓越中心。那但我也不得不說,其實卓越中心這個名詞呢對大家來講一定都非常的陌生。那我覺得它其實蠻適合在總諮詢這樣的一個場合來跟大家介紹一下就是到底是什麼是卓越中心。因為我認為總諮詢非常重要的一點是在於\n\n01:01.769 --> 01:01.789\n﹚廣告\n\n01:12.550 --> 01:33.550\n總質詢很重要的一點是,如果能夠書面解決,能夠書面徵詢的,我們也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。那第二點就是呢,其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多的時間,詳細的答覆。因為呢在各國的立法例上,其實官員的答覆才是質詢的重點。因為這才是可以讓國人知道到底現在及時的我們對於這個政策到底是什麼。那我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的一些辯論。\n\n01:35.832 --> 02:04.346\n那很可惜的就是一直以來我們到現在我們很多的這個質詢的現狀常常問一些無關的問題然後問一些細節比如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成或幾年幾月幾號說了什麼話那也不給官員答覆那我覺得這個是一個我們現在質詢的一個亂象所以希望等一下就是就這些問題這個院長跟部長就盡量的回答因為這是一個跟國人可以說明的一個非常好的機會那我今天其實就只有兩個問題\n\n02:05.627 --> 02:33.648\n第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關因為畢竟台灣現在面臨這個中國不斷輿論的攻擊之下我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面臨的問題那第二個問題呢就是跟卓越中心有關所以第一個問題呢最主要的就是說我們想要釐清以國人的角度來講到底什麼叫做認知作戰那部長可能也很熟悉就是其實以這個中國的用語來講就是所謂的輿論戰所以呢從作為一個影子我稍微整理了一下就是\n\n02:34.409 --> 02:55.782\n目前這個國防部有提到認知作戰的一個狀況,這裡面很多細節當然不一一過去,但我就隨便講一兩個紅色的部分,比如說這個金門的失聯兵或在廈門房這個部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰,又或者說這個網傳金門二單島又有逃兵,那這邊也有提到有可能有認知作戰的伎倆。\n\n02:57.063 --> 03:18.291\n那其實以一般國人的角度來講他的第一個反應可能通常就會是到底什麼是認知作戰也就是說我們今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰他的標準是什麼然後以及譬如說是誰發動的他的手法是什麼還有我們應對的方式是什麼所以在這邊想要先就教於部長趁這個機會讓大家知道說以往過去這些狀況我們說這個是一個認知作戰那我們的標準\n\n03:24.853 --> 03:45.247\n然後以及我們認定的方式大概是什麼樣子?謝謝。我跟委員報告,這個錯角訊息是一個最認知作戰當中最明顯的。它主要發起的原因在哪裡?就為了要打擊我們,不管軍民實現士氣等等。但它的時機點它也會選擇,比如說最近有什麼議題,它會趁機擴大。\n\n03:47.679 --> 04:16.153\n所以認知作戰的含義就是說在當時的狀況它無聲無息的加進來讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象所以這的確是蠻嚴重的一點一滴的會影響到不要講說軍方民間的心理也會受到很大影響所以我們在這一方面國軍在對認知作戰防衛方面是做得很徹底那我們現在基本上因為國家有一個治安防護的一個\n\n04:16.721 --> 04:17.421\n臨時提案委員：沈伯洋\n\n04:43.397 --> 05:04.669\n謝謝部長那剛剛部長有提到其實蠻重要的一點是在於軍心士氣的一個打擊那又或者我們對於輿論的一個影響那在中國的這個三戰裡面的新戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的那剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的我們有自動電那我們在這個輿論戰的認定可能會有政戰但我現在會國人很容易疑惑的一點是我這邊用這個這個上個禮拜這個的一個業務報告為例\n\n05:08.442 --> 05:33.136\n就是這邊在最後面畫紅線的這個部分有提到中共利用了這個官方媒體側翼組織在地協力者所以很明顯官方媒體是蠻重要的一個發動單位那我個人認為當然311基地就是解放軍有61716部隊也是非常重要的但是因為在報告裡面有提到像側翼在地協力者這樣的一個字眼那我想國人第一個反應一定會是說那誰是在地協力者\n\n05:33.556 --> 05:58.469\n又或者說今天發生的這個國防部指認是一個認知作戰的案件。那今天這個案件誰是在地協力者?我們要怎麼知道他是?那關於這一點國防部有沒有有一些可能準則啊或者一些說明?跟委員報陳福這個整個標題是認知作戰一樣。那在地協力者也是一個認知的問題。我們只要講你有任何訊息對我們反而不利。\n\n05:58.854 --> 06:17.176\n以造成一些言論對我們不利,對他對方有利,這我就初步就認為他在地協力者。但至於他到底是或不是,那後面不管檢調單位他會去查。我想每一個人他做任何事情,他臉上不會貼了一個標籤。\n\n06:18.536 --> 06:33.168\n所以他這個看機會所以我一開頭就跟委員報告他這個認知作戰時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態他加進去讓我們不知不覺的就中到這個圈套這就是可怕的地方\n\n06:34.020 --> 06:52.402\n謝謝部長,因為這邊就是可以明顯的感覺到就是當然他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式又或者說網路大量的假帳號這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定它是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊但有時候在地協力者有時候他可能會說那是他的言論自由\n\n06:52.802 --> 07:15.069\n甚至有時候在放大中國言論還包含我們自己的立法委員所以有時候就很多曖昧不清的狀態那這種曖昧不清的狀態現階段對我們來講有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚的告訴大家誰才是在地協力者因為我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚那更不要講說我們可能在相關的準則、藥缸\n\n07:16.229 --> 07:17.130\n現在我想要再問的是我們剛剛講的是標準\n\n07:37.910 --> 07:38.130\n沈伯洋沈伯洋\n\n07:53.846 --> 07:54.347\n沈伯洋\n\n08:10.274 --> 08:36.316\n另外一個是一言一物議,這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖,因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭,所以我先趕快換下一張。但也可以看到那個黑色的部分也佔了一定的量體。但是在這兩個案例,我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡,一物議相關的謠言,然後還有這個潛艦國造相關的謠言。但國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家這是認知作戰。\n\n08:37.037 --> 08:58.782\n那我知道國防部可能有自己的,譬如說不管是國家安全的考量啊、政策的考量,但是我們在怕的事情就是說,如果我們今天即使確定了我們的標準是什麼,我們有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰。但有一些案件我們說是,有些案件我們沒有發言。那在這樣的狀況之下我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致,不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法?\n\n08:59.082 --> 09:26.015\n我跟委員報告啊,要定一個標準都很困難的。就好像講上午國軍同仁當中,你知道哪一個他不是忠誠愛國的,但他又做出一些啊,不管是一些違密啊,或者他不留意,造成一些困擾。但我們不能講,哎,界定,你違背規定了,這規定是既有的。但違背哪些規定,你要一條條列出來,對軍中來講沒問題,我可以列出來。但對民間來講,我要做很清楚的界定。\n\n09:26.488 --> 09:49.083\n怎麼樣我就認定你是一個在地協力者我真的沒有辦法只能看他從這個發出來的信息當中最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展有什麼影響到我們真的有什麼其他很比較違背常理的這種反應的話那我們就可以慢慢判定他是在地協力者\n\n09:49.935 --> 10:12.824\n只有這樣來做的。謝謝,那部長你這邊提的很好,就是在於說因為它非常困難嘛,界定上它非常的困難。所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白,不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣。比如說哪一些是比較接近中國的操作的認知作戰,哪一些比較不接近。如果我們有具體的,比如說這邊有列出來一些相關可能的一些標準,我稍微往後一點。\n\n10:13.684 --> 10:25.593\n就是呢,譬如說不管是這個時機啦、可信度啦、帳號潛伏的程度啦等等之類的,如果這個可以在某個準則裡面,然後我們知道說在這些標準裡面,譬如說它超過60%了,我們可能就會告訴大家這個是一個嚴重的狀況。\n\n10:28.835 --> 10:45.485\n那如果不是的話呢我們可能就先隱而不談先不界定他是一個認知作戰這或許是可能的一個方向那另外剛剛部長也提到非常重要的一點就是當今天國軍釋出訊息的時候面對的人非常多他有可能是要講給大眾聽的有可能是要講給老共聽的\n\n10:45.865 --> 11:07.134\n有可能是要講給上級聽的,也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的,但現在的狀況有時候我們都可能藉由部長的嘴裡去把各個必須要溝通的管道可能都是由部長講出來。所以有時候認知作戰它不只是說我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準跟國人知道而已,我們可能還要知道說什麼情況下我們是講給國人聽的。\n\n11:08.374 --> 11:35.346\n什麼時候是要講給對方聽的?什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的?這個如果也可以有一個準則讓我們知道的話,我相信這個在我們對國人的溝通上以及對國防部認定這件信心上面應該會有更加為的提升。這是我簡單的一個建議。我跟委員也報告,我們初步我剛剛有講我們國防部是一個國家有關於這種應變的中心的一個成員,但我們自己部內也有。\n\n11:35.865 --> 11:45.719\n我們不能推動工作剛剛委員已經點出來了就很難叛變以外但我們有透過很多管道就不管調查局也好我們軍情局也好國安局也好\n\n11:46.357 --> 11:46.777\n沈伯洋委員\n\n12:07.964 --> 12:10.646\n接下來我想要問的是院長,就是說我覺得這個問題是比較尷尬一點,因為我相信院長對衛福部等等會比較熟悉。\n\n12:29.036 --> 12:56.127\n就是說呢有時候是解放軍發動了輿論戰的攻擊那他攻擊的對象不是國防部他最近攻擊了海巡嘛他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者攻擊的是我們的農業部製造大量的謠言那這時候就造成一個非常尷尬的狀況因為對方是一個獨裁的國家他的黨陣全部是全部是搓在一起的所以他今天雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊但他今天面對他攻擊的對象是衛福部製造跟衛福部相關的謠言那以這樣的狀況來講\n\n12:57.347 --> 13:20.223\n是因為國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰還是要衛福部出來來跟大家講說這邊有一個認知作戰我想如果衛福部這邊有能力去分辨的時候呢那衛福部也可以來宣布有這樣的一個認知作戰的疑慮的考量那如果國防部這邊也是透過他們的\n\n13:21.064 --> 13:24.828\n因為以衛福部的角度來講,衛福部對於解放軍的手法說真的一定是沒有國防不了解。\n\n13:38.283 --> 14:07.438\n但是說真的國防部對於比如說像高端啊等等之類的一定也不會那麼的熟悉所以這也是為什麼呢就是我一直都覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會認認真的去面對這一個所謂認知作戰的機制的話會變得非常的危險所以這也是為什麼我在這邊有提到就是我們今天的這個標題叫做這個卓越中心那蔡總統其實在這一個面這個波海這個三國的時候呢就有講到說因為其他的國家尤其是北約的國家\n\n14:07.978 --> 14:36.327\n他們在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰他可能有外交的可能有國防的可能有民生經濟的攻擊你每一個部會單獨面對就是被各個擊破所以他們希望有一個中心就是卓越中心大家一起去面對這個混合戰然後一起來做分析那蔡總統那時候有提到說台灣應該有一些單位能夠對接那因為台灣目前來講名稱最像的有一個在速發部然後還有像剛剛部長提到的有時候在偵查很多是國安局跟調查局\n\n14:36.727 --> 15:01.842\n但其實國防部裡面還有一個政戰對這個部分其實也是非常的熟悉那你就會發現我們有點散在每一個地方沒有辦法認真的去應對他們有時候這個一個公事可能是三個小時六個小時如果我們沒有辦法馬上去應對的話會形成非常多的困擾所以我們才想說因為現在在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心但是有沒有可能開始可以開啟這方面的討論不管是從部長還是院長\n\n15:02.842 --> 15:30.389\n畢竟其實我認為政戰還是有非常大的一個能量,如果能夠針對這些事情來討論的話,我們去面對認知作戰的速度應該可能會變得更快。我跟委員報告,委員這個想法絕對對的,我們問國家有關於這個治安的應變,小組、中心、邊層,他就跨各個部會,他有個主辦單位,但我剛我有講的,譬如說國防部是當初議員,但國防部裡面這邊有很多團隊,\n\n15:31.708 --> 15:34.310\n謝謝沈委員伯洋的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二位吳委員中線質詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.025,"end":30.565,"text":"謝謝主席,那有請院長還有國防部部長,謝謝。我請陳院長及國防部備選。沈委員早安,恭喜你當選例人。好,早,謝謝。等一下部長。"},{"start":38.424,"end":61.424,"text":"好,院長好、部長好。那今天呢我的題目非常的簡單,就像這個簡報上面看到的,就是在討論這個卓越中心。那但我也不得不說,其實卓越中心這個名詞呢對大家來講一定都非常的陌生。那我覺得它其實蠻適合在總諮詢這樣的一個場合來跟大家介紹一下就是到底是什麼是卓越中心。因為我認為總諮詢非常重要的一點是在於"},{"start":61.769,"end":61.789,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":72.55,"end":93.55,"text":"總質詢很重要的一點是,如果能夠書面解決,能夠書面徵詢的,我們也沒有必要在總質詢浪費時間。那第二點就是呢,其實還是很希望官員能夠有更多的時間,詳細的答覆。因為呢在各國的立法例上,其實官員的答覆才是質詢的重點。因為這才是可以讓國人知道到底現在及時的我們對於這個政策到底是什麼。那我們再用我們的專業來進行相關的一些辯論。"},{"start":95.832,"end":124.346,"text":"那很可惜的就是一直以來我們到現在我們很多的這個質詢的現狀常常問一些無關的問題然後問一些細節比如說問部長這是幾年幾月幾號才有辦法完成或幾年幾月幾號說了什麼話那也不給官員答覆那我覺得這個是一個我們現在質詢的一個亂象所以希望等一下就是就這些問題這個院長跟部長就盡量的回答因為這是一個跟國人可以說明的一個非常好的機會那我今天其實就只有兩個問題"},{"start":125.627,"end":153.648,"text":"第一個問題是跟認知作戰有關因為畢竟台灣現在面臨這個中國不斷輿論的攻擊之下我認為認知作戰應該是我們現階段最需要面臨的問題那第二個問題呢就是跟卓越中心有關所以第一個問題呢最主要的就是說我們想要釐清以國人的角度來講到底什麼叫做認知作戰那部長可能也很熟悉就是其實以這個中國的用語來講就是所謂的輿論戰所以呢從作為一個影子我稍微整理了一下就是"},{"start":154.409,"end":175.782,"text":"目前這個國防部有提到認知作戰的一個狀況,這裡面很多細節當然不一一過去,但我就隨便講一兩個紅色的部分,比如說這個金門的失聯兵或在廈門房這個部長有提到這可能是一個認知作戰,又或者說這個網傳金門二單島又有逃兵,那這邊也有提到有可能有認知作戰的伎倆。"},{"start":177.063,"end":198.291,"text":"那其實以一般國人的角度來講他的第一個反應可能通常就會是到底什麼是認知作戰也就是說我們今天假設國防部出來講認知作戰他的標準是什麼然後以及譬如說是誰發動的他的手法是什麼還有我們應對的方式是什麼所以在這邊想要先就教於部長趁這個機會讓大家知道說以往過去這些狀況我們說這個是一個認知作戰那我們的標準"},{"start":204.853,"end":225.247,"text":"然後以及我們認定的方式大概是什麼樣子?謝謝。我跟委員報告,這個錯角訊息是一個最認知作戰當中最明顯的。它主要發起的原因在哪裡?就為了要打擊我們,不管軍民實現士氣等等。但它的時機點它也會選擇,比如說最近有什麼議題,它會趁機擴大。"},{"start":227.679,"end":256.153,"text":"所以認知作戰的含義就是說在當時的狀況它無聲無息的加進來讓大家認為這是一個普遍的現象所以這的確是蠻嚴重的一點一滴的會影響到不要講說軍方民間的心理也會受到很大影響所以我們在這一方面國軍在對認知作戰防衛方面是做得很徹底那我們現在基本上因為國家有一個治安防護的一個"},{"start":256.721,"end":257.421,"text":"臨時提案委員：沈伯洋"},{"start":283.397,"end":304.669,"text":"謝謝部長那剛剛部長有提到其實蠻重要的一點是在於軍心士氣的一個打擊那又或者我們對於輿論的一個影響那在中國的這個三戰裡面的新戰、輿論戰等等之類是分開的那剛剛部長也有提到資安相關的我們有自動電那我們在這個輿論戰的認定可能會有政戰但我現在會國人很容易疑惑的一點是我這邊用這個這個上個禮拜這個的一個業務報告為例"},{"start":308.442,"end":333.136,"text":"就是這邊在最後面畫紅線的這個部分有提到中共利用了這個官方媒體側翼組織在地協力者所以很明顯官方媒體是蠻重要的一個發動單位那我個人認為當然311基地就是解放軍有61716部隊也是非常重要的但是因為在報告裡面有提到像側翼在地協力者這樣的一個字眼那我想國人第一個反應一定會是說那誰是在地協力者"},{"start":333.556,"end":358.469,"text":"又或者說今天發生的這個國防部指認是一個認知作戰的案件。那今天這個案件誰是在地協力者?我們要怎麼知道他是?那關於這一點國防部有沒有有一些可能準則啊或者一些說明?跟委員報陳福這個整個標題是認知作戰一樣。那在地協力者也是一個認知的問題。我們只要講你有任何訊息對我們反而不利。"},{"start":358.854,"end":377.176,"text":"以造成一些言論對我們不利,對他對方有利,這我就初步就認為他在地協力者。但至於他到底是或不是,那後面不管檢調單位他會去查。我想每一個人他做任何事情,他臉上不會貼了一個標籤。"},{"start":378.536,"end":393.168,"text":"所以他這個看機會所以我一開頭就跟委員報告他這個認知作戰時機是看整個環境目前有什麼動態他加進去讓我們不知不覺的就中到這個圈套這就是可怕的地方"},{"start":394.02,"end":412.402,"text":"謝謝部長,因為這邊就是可以明顯的感覺到就是當然他們今天不管是用滲透的方式、地面的方式又或者說網路大量的假帳號這一些有時候對我們來講很容易認定它是否來自於中國或者解放軍的攻擊但有時候在地協力者有時候他可能會說那是他的言論自由"},{"start":412.802,"end":435.069,"text":"甚至有時候在放大中國言論還包含我們自己的立法委員所以有時候就很多曖昧不清的狀態那這種曖昧不清的狀態現階段對我們來講有時候就會形成國防部跟國人溝通的障礙因為有時候我們並沒有辦法那麼清楚的告訴大家誰才是在地協力者因為我們的法律就這一點其實都是不清楚那更不要講說我們可能在相關的準則、藥缸"},{"start":436.229,"end":437.13,"text":"現在我想要再問的是 我們剛剛講的是標準"},{"start":457.91,"end":458.13,"text":"沈伯洋 沈伯洋"},{"start":473.846,"end":474.347,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":490.274,"end":516.316,"text":"另外一個是一言一物議,這邊也有一些他們製造的謠言圖,因為是謠言放在國會殿堂實在是很討厭,所以我先趕快換下一張。但也可以看到那個黑色的部分也佔了一定的量體。但是在這兩個案例,我們都覺得這是一個中國有介入的痕跡,一物議相關的謠言,然後還有這個潛艦國造相關的謠言。但國防部在這兩個案件並沒有特別出來告訴大家這是認知作戰。"},{"start":517.037,"end":538.782,"text":"那我知道國防部可能有自己的,譬如說不管是國家安全的考量啊、政策的考量,但是我們在怕的事情就是說,如果我們今天即使確定了我們的標準是什麼,我們有一個準則告訴大家什麼叫做認知作戰。但有一些案件我們說是,有些案件我們沒有發言。那在這樣的狀況之下我們要怎樣讓這件事情變得一致,不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法?"},{"start":539.082,"end":566.015,"text":"我跟委員報告啊,要定一個標準都很困難的。就好像講上午國軍同仁當中,你知道哪一個他不是忠誠愛國的,但他又做出一些啊,不管是一些違密啊,或者他不留意,造成一些困擾。但我們不能講,哎,界定,你違背規定了,這規定是既有的。但違背哪些規定,你要一條條列出來,對軍中來講沒問題,我可以列出來。但對民間來講,我要做很清楚的界定。"},{"start":566.488,"end":589.083,"text":"怎麼樣我就認定你是一個在地協力者我真的沒有辦法只能看他從這個發出來的信息當中最後不管經過檢調、偵查或者看他後續發展有什麼影響到我們真的有什麼其他很比較違背常理的這種反應的話那我們就可以慢慢判定他是在地協力者"},{"start":589.935,"end":612.824,"text":"只有這樣來做的。謝謝,那部長你這邊提的很好,就是在於說因為它非常困難嘛,界定上它非常的困難。所以我們與其把它當作一黑一白,不如把它當作像是一個光譜一樣。比如說哪一些是比較接近中國的操作的認知作戰,哪一些比較不接近。如果我們有具體的,比如說這邊有列出來一些相關可能的一些標準,我稍微往後一點。"},{"start":613.684,"end":625.593,"text":"就是呢,譬如說不管是這個時機啦、可信度啦、帳號潛伏的程度啦等等之類的,如果這個可以在某個準則裡面,然後我們知道說在這些標準裡面,譬如說它超過60%了,我們可能就會告訴大家這個是一個嚴重的狀況。"},{"start":628.835,"end":645.485,"text":"那如果不是的話呢我們可能就先隱而不談先不界定他是一個認知作戰這或許是可能的一個方向那另外剛剛部長也提到非常重要的一點就是當今天國軍釋出訊息的時候面對的人非常多他有可能是要講給大眾聽的有可能是要講給老共聽的"},{"start":645.865,"end":667.134,"text":"有可能是要講給上級聽的,也有可能是要講給國際社會聽的,但現在的狀況有時候我們都可能藉由部長的嘴裡去把各個必須要溝通的管道可能都是由部長講出來。所以有時候認知作戰它不只是說我們今天是不是界定它是作戰的標準跟國人知道而已,我們可能還要知道說什麼情況下我們是講給國人聽的。"},{"start":668.374,"end":695.346,"text":"什麼時候是要講給對方聽的?什麼時候是講給國際社會聽的?這個如果也可以有一個準則讓我們知道的話,我相信這個在我們對國人的溝通上以及對國防部認定這件信心上面應該會有更加為的提升。這是我簡單的一個建議。我跟委員也報告,我們初步我剛剛有講我們國防部是一個國家有關於這種應變的中心的一個成員,但我們自己部內也有。"},{"start":695.865,"end":705.719,"text":"我們不能推動工作剛剛委員已經點出來了就很難叛變以外但我們有透過很多管道就不管調查局也好我們軍情局也好國安局也好"},{"start":706.357,"end":706.777,"text":"沈伯洋委員"},{"start":727.964,"end":730.646,"text":"接下來我想要問的是院長,就是說我覺得這個問題是比較尷尬一點,因為我相信院長對衛福部等等會比較熟悉。"},{"start":749.036,"end":776.127,"text":"就是說呢有時候是解放軍發動了輿論戰的攻擊那他攻擊的對象不是國防部他最近攻擊了海巡嘛他今天攻擊的是衛福部或者攻擊的是我們的農業部製造大量的謠言那這時候就造成一個非常尷尬的狀況因為對方是一個獨裁的國家他的黨陣全部是全部是搓在一起的所以他今天雖然是解放軍發動的攻擊但他今天面對他攻擊的對象是衛福部製造跟衛福部相關的謠言那以這樣的狀況來講"},{"start":777.347,"end":800.223,"text":"是因為國防部出來告訴大家這邊有認知作戰還是要衛福部出來來跟大家講說這邊有一個認知作戰我想如果衛福部這邊有能力去分辨的時候呢那衛福部也可以來宣布有這樣的一個認知作戰的疑慮的考量那如果國防部這邊也是透過他們的"},{"start":801.064,"end":804.828,"text":"因為以衛福部的角度來講,衛福部對於解放軍的手法說真的一定是沒有國防不了解。"},{"start":818.283,"end":847.438,"text":"但是說真的國防部對於比如說像高端啊等等之類的一定也不會那麼的熟悉所以這也是為什麼呢就是我一直都覺得如果我們沒有一個跨部會認認真的去面對這一個所謂認知作戰的機制的話會變得非常的危險所以這也是為什麼我在這邊有提到就是我們今天的這個標題叫做這個卓越中心那蔡總統其實在這一個面這個波海這個三國的時候呢就有講到說因為其他的國家尤其是北約的國家"},{"start":847.978,"end":876.327,"text":"他們在面對俄羅斯的混合作戰他可能有外交的可能有國防的可能有民生經濟的攻擊你每一個部會單獨面對就是被各個擊破所以他們希望有一個中心就是卓越中心大家一起去面對這個混合戰然後一起來做分析那蔡總統那時候有提到說台灣應該有一些單位能夠對接那因為台灣目前來講名稱最像的有一個在速發部然後還有像剛剛部長提到的有時候在偵查很多是國安局跟調查局"},{"start":876.727,"end":901.842,"text":"但其實國防部裡面還有一個政戰對這個部分其實也是非常的熟悉那你就會發現我們有點散在每一個地方沒有辦法認真的去應對他們有時候這個一個公事可能是三個小時六個小時如果我們沒有辦法馬上去應對的話會形成非常多的困擾所以我們才想說因為現在在520之前不可能馬上突然成立一個中心但是有沒有可能開始可以開啟這方面的討論不管是從部長還是院長"},{"start":902.842,"end":930.389,"text":"畢竟其實我認為政戰還是有非常大的一個能量,如果能夠針對這些事情來討論的話,我們去面對認知作戰的速度應該可能會變得更快。我跟委員報告,委員這個想法絕對對的,我們問國家有關於這個治安的應變,小組、中心、邊層,他就跨各個部會,他有個主辦單位,但我剛我有講的,譬如說國防部是當初議員,但國防部裡面這邊有很多團隊,"},{"start":931.708,"end":934.31,"text":"謝謝沈委員伯洋的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二位吳委員中線質詢。"}]}}}}