{"id":149720,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3a8d0956074a29385ac812cd1375f89d04b328b65eecebe0f8ba9b0039caa7a60954a5661336367d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:40:28 - 11:55:56","影片長度":"00:15:28","會議時間":"2024-03-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第4次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n三、3月12日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議","id":"院會-11-1-4","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4},"date":"2024-03-12","duration":928,"end_time":"2024-03-12T11:55:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-12T11:40:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時40分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長及國防部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長、國防部備詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長、部長早安。"],["陳院長建仁：委員早，恭喜你。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，您的社會流行病學的書我拜讀很多次，真的獲益良多，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在這邊有幾個問題想要請教院長，我們知道，依據憲法如果總統無法視事，那就是由副總統代理；如果副總統也不行的話，是由院長代理。我想請教一下院長，如果我們今天質詢到一半，然後突然國家的警報簡訊大作，可能是飛彈的空襲警報，在這邊的話，院長知道防空洞在哪裡嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這裡的防空設施我不太清楚，應該是看這裡有地下室的地方。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟院長說明一下，立法院其實有一些避難設施，譬如在青島會館、議場或中興大樓樓下都有，我今天為什麼要提這個？畢竟兩岸現在比較兵凶戰危，現在他們的戰略方式是希望以斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害，所以我覺得院長在這裡也是隨時要有危機的意識，我們也要知道一下在立法院這邊如果發生一些緊急狀況的時候，也能夠有地方可以去躲、去避難。雖然我自己擔任立委的時間不長，但是我覺得這一段時間，我感覺國家的狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危，昨天CNN有一個報導，大概的意思就是以前認為臺灣是一個最危險的地方，現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析，究竟對或不對，我想院長以及部長心裡一定都很清楚這整個狀況。我在這邊還是想要奉勸一下目前的政府，其實引起戰爭的往往都是領袖而不是人民，一個最愚蠢的領袖就是把戰爭跟貧窮帶給下一代，我想兩位長官在這邊一定都能夠體會這一句話。一個領導人能夠做出最愚蠢的事真的就是把戰爭跟貧窮帶給下一代，其實這個是很不好的。","我想在這邊請教一下部長，部長，請問一下，您知道在司法及法制委員會監督的行政院部會中，哪一個部會跟國防部目前最密切？"],["邱部長國正：委員是針對人嗎？還是針對部？"],["吳委員宗憲：就是一些公務上面，最近……"],["邱部長國正：我們跟很多部會都會有關聯，不管是海委會或者法務部，內政部有時候也會有。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟部長說明一下，其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫對吧？"],["邱部長國正：對，跟法務部。"],["吳委員宗憲：尤其是在102年（2013年）軍事審判法修正之後，到103年（2014年）其實已經把所有的人還有案件，受刑人現在都是交給法務部在處理。也就是說，現在的軍事審判已經變成是普通法院或是地檢署在處理中嘛！以現在這個狀況，軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署目前大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已，而沒有像以前一樣會有一些軍事法院的訴訟案件在進行。我想提一個東西就是在這個狀況下，在加重普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下，會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發，我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況？部長，您知道從今年2月底到現在發生了多少件軍人自殺的案件？"],["邱部長國正：我知道，這個數量……"],["吳委員宗憲：我們看一下，從2月26號到3月7號已經發生了那麼多件，其實這個數字應該算是不低，尤其在2016年的時候，國防部當時就有說要把零自傷、就是不要發生自傷案件當成一個重大的施政目標，但是近年來自傷的案件就不停地攀升，我想部長應該很知道這個狀況。不管發生自殺、這種自傷案件，檢方就必須要介入，譬如驗屍，或者去調查一下他到底是自殺、還是他殺，或是背後有沒有一些狀況，其實也無形地就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。","部長，其實在之前有檢討自殺案件一直增加的時候，我看到有一個報導，就是部長有提到這個問題是出在有一些人的壓力抗壓性比較弱。我跟部長說，其實這個話比較不妥，因為大家比較希望我們檢討制度出了什麼問題，而不是去檢討自殺者他的行為哪裡出了狀況。我想對於您當初的這個說法，全國的心理師、諮商師可能也不是那麼認同，將來有機會也許是不是能夠對這句話加以說明、道歉或是收回之類的？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，是不是給部長說明一下？"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，我能不能用一點時間跟您做說明，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：是，請說。"],["邱部長國正：剛剛前面一位有講到認知作戰，這些當初講的話我記得清清楚楚，我不光講這一個，我講任何一件自殺案件的發生，對他個人、對他家庭、對部隊都是斲傷，斲傷的狀況下也是遺憾，但是我們要檢討的話，沒有定論。我們要從哪一個？第一個，我先講我們內部管理有沒有問題？管教方面，有沒有給他工作壓力很大？這是第一個。","第二個，他個人在外面不管是債務的問題、或感情問題或者家庭問題，這我都沒有設定，沒有設定立場。但有一些人的確同樣的工作加在不同的人身上，他有不同反應，就代表什麼？每個人抗壓性、個性是有所不同的，這的確也是在個人因素當中之一環，但並沒有完全歸納到，哎呀！他就是抗壓性不夠，我當部長從來沒有講過這句話，所以這種認知作戰不是被加進來了嗎？他引用你這一段，好像不得了了，一點人性都沒有。我們國防部一直強調的是照顧官兵、一家人，沒有講我認定你就是錯的。","現在任何這種事情發生以後，我們都公開到什麼地步？第一個，依法究辦，依法究辦代表什麼？我不吃案，這一點我們已經平息很多大家的疑義，甚至於在調查當中也請家人，你要委託誰或外面有專業的人要加入，我們統統可以配合，這的確很坦白、公開的，沒有講認定他、錯都在他，不是這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的，謝謝部長。我們再來提一下，我們剛剛有秀出光是2月底到現在就非常多件。我來提一個，就是監察院之前針對陸軍第八軍團203旅班長柳姓下士自殺的案件裡面有提到，我唸給大家聽，就是近10年國軍自殺案件中士官兵占75%，這代表國軍基層出了狀況；國防部對於察覺軍官、士官及士兵環境、身心狀態轉換之危機評估顯有不足；編制裡的心理輔導官面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷；再來，這些有關精神疾病的判斷及診療應該要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處，國防部應該引入這些資源。部長，我想請教一下，監察院之前已經有作出這樣的調查意旨了，國防部到目前為止為什麼發生自傷的比率還是頻頻上升？所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好，還是國防部沒有落實呢？"],["邱部長國正：我首先跟委員報告，任何一個士官兵出了問題，領導幹部一定要負責，絕對不會脫開，說這是他個人的行為，不會！我剛剛也跟委員做了說明，這種事情一發生以後，我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們的調查結果，我們絕對予以尊重，的確國軍有很多地方沒有最好，但是我們要不斷地求比較好或者更好，這個是我們要努力的。","至於防處方面，基本上部隊裡面就有3個防線，這個防線不是一個口號，他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道，旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的，這些就是第一道防線，所以我們現在可能欠缺的是，他被關注的內容或這個層次可能不夠，反而是這種他沒講什麼，應該OK啊！我就跟委員報告，前一陣子發生的憲兵事件，發生的時候旁邊的人還跟他打招呼，沒有任何……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，因為時間的關係，我知道部長的意思，我想說有關這個部分有些系統性上面的問題還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力，因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝，他送到部隊當然是希望能夠平平安安地把役服完，希望部長就這部分能夠再用點心。","再來，我們看一下很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力，院長一定非常非常地清楚，我們看一下國軍目前這幾個狀況，什麼會符合國軍第一擊的情況？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，我沒有講說這個符合，我剛好跟委員說明一下，第一擊的改變，不是今年1月這些狀況才改變的，在111年有些案件出來以後，我就已經調整了，因為戰備規定是我國防部的權責，所以我就調了，調了以後，為什麼？因為所謂的第一擊是開槍開砲叫第一擊，不過我們要等到中共開槍開砲才叫第一擊，但金門的事件，無人機一侵擾以後，大家反應怎麼樣？好像變成國防部毫無作為，但我在扛責任。我想 ，好，為了避免這種事情再發生，我就把這樣的律令改了，不管無人、有人，只要一個航空實體到我們的領空了，就是我們的權責……"],["吳委員宗憲：有人、無人有時候很難辨識，對不對？因為現在的無人機也很大一臺。"],["邱部長國正：所以我要跟委員報告一下，這個程序一定要走完，所以我們為了這個，要打訊號彈，要警告、要辨識、要去確認，確認以後再喊話，不管透過……"],["吳委員宗憲：我自己的朋友在第一線，他跟我說因為他們都搞不清楚這個第一擊定義是什麼，他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯，到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是武裝衝突法的規範，他們都搞不清楚，所以這一塊也要麻煩部長儘量在教育上面能夠落實，能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力，因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外，他們也很擔心我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法？這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。我這邊也是要麻煩部長對這一塊能夠稍微做一下。","再來，部長，我們從2024年開始兵役就要延長為1年了，依照我手中的數據今年會有9,100人，4年後會到3萬5,000人，所以這一次國防部跟法務部也有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題，我們剛剛所提到的，現在案子都要由普通法院以及地檢署管轄，將來役期延長到一年之後，我擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增，部長，您知不知道現在在處理案子的一審檢察官全國有多少人，您知道嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道，反正因為案件多嘛……"],["吳委員宗憲：這邊跟部長說明一下，總共到去年底是1,065人，這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官，也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子，在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對役期延長到一年，到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題？這個是我很擔心的，所以我希望一件事情，當年我們把軍事審判法修改，我們從現在再往當年去看，有點類似頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫腳，所以整個就丟給普通法院，但是我始終認為制度沒有問題，軍事審判沒有問題，問題是出在人，但是當時就是這樣把它整個處理掉了。","我有一個建議，我希望，因為現在的檢察官要面對國內太多治安案件，像詐欺罪暴增，讓檢察官都負荷不了了，有關軍事的部分是不是也可以研擬看看，有沒有可能將一些軍法的案件把它轉回去由軍事審判法來去追訴？譬如說像暴行犯上、抗命、洩漏機密或是一些影響社會重大的案件，或者像有些是酒駕、毒品，還是由軍事審判去處理，不是什麼都丟給基層的檢察官。我跟兩位說明一下，現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官其實都受不了，因為我自己做過20年檢察官，我很清楚，現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了，人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已。所以我們可以研擬一下，看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理，再麻煩部長能夠思考……"],["邱部長國正：委員，幾秒鐘我跟你說明，陸海空軍刑法的修正和軍人權益的管理辦法，我們都已經擬定好了，而且已經呈到行政院去，院裡面通過以後會經過大院審查。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後，我希望我們也可以考量93軍人節到底要不要放假，或是第一線戰鬥人員加薪的問題，也麻煩部長能夠考慮，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員宗憲的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，我們上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行外交及國防組之質詢。現在休息，謝謝。","休息（11時56分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","麥玉珍","范雲","陳玉珍","謝龍介","吳沛憶","李彥秀","馬文君","李坤城","沈伯洋","張雅琳","吳宗憲","徐巧芯","陳永康","楊曜","陳俊宇","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","劉建國","張嘉郡","陳超明","陳秀寳"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-03-12"],"gazette_id":"1130601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130601_00004","1130601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,830 --> 00:00:24,632\n請院長及國防部長麻煩請陳院長國防部備詢。院長、部長,早安。好,早。委員長,抱歉點。院長,您的那個社會流行病學書我拜讀很多次,真的獲益良多,謝謝院長。不會,沒有,謝謝。我在這邊有幾個問題想要請教,就是,院長,\n\n2\n00:00:25,939 --> 00:00:49,650\n我們知道就是依據憲法如果總統不能無法事事那就是由副總統代理那如果副總統也不行的話是由院長代理那我想請教一下院長如果我們今天呢執行到一半然後有突然這個國家這個警報簡訊大作那可能是飛彈的空襲警報那在這邊的話\n\n3\n00:00:51,397 --> 00:01:09,834\n院長知道那個防空洞在哪裡嗎?這裡的防空設施我不太記得,應該看這裡的有地下室的地方。立法院其實是有一些避難設施,譬如說在青島會館、議場或中心大樓樓下都有。那我今天為什麼要提這個?因為\n\n4\n00:01:10,775 --> 00:01:39,770\n畢竟兩岸現在比較兵兇戰危那隨時現在又講求是斬首他們的那個那個戰略方式是希望斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害所以啊院長在這裡其實我覺得我們也是隨時要有危機的意識那我們也是要知道一下這立法院哪個地方如果再發生一些緊急狀況的時候也能夠有地方可以去躲然後去避難那其實我覺得啦就是\n\n5\n00:01:40,540 --> 00:02:07,151\n因為我自己擔任立委時間不長,但是我覺得這段時間我感覺是國家的狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危。昨天CNN也有一個報導,它的大概意思就是說以前認為台灣是一個最危險的地方,現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析,對或不對我想院長以及部長心裡一定都很清楚這整個狀況。\n\n6\n00:02:08,831 --> 00:02:08,851\n吳宗憲\n\n7\n00:02:39,987 --> 00:02:53,842\n那我想在這邊請教一下部長。部長請問一下您知道我們司法法治委員會監督的行政院部會中哪一個部會跟國防部目前那個最密切?\n\n8\n00:03:01,854 --> 00:03:15,382\n對,我們跟很多部會都會有關聯,不管是海委會或者法務部,對政部有的也會有那我跟部長說明一下,其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫,尤其是在\n\n9\n00:03:15,782 --> 00:03:15,802\n﹚吳宗憲\n\n10\n00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:54,798\n現在這個狀況呢,軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署現在大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已,就沒有像以前一樣會有一些訴訟啊,軍事法院一些訴訟的案件在進行。那我想\n\n11\n00:03:56,892 --> 00:04:21,822\n我想提一個東西就是說在這個狀況下在加重了普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下我們會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況部長您知道就是從今年二月底到現在發生了多少件這個軍人自殺的案件\n\n12\n00:04:22,398 --> 00:04:27,019\n我知道這個數量來我們看一下這邊有2月26號到3月7號已經發生了那麼多件那其實這個數字應該算是不低尤其是在2016年的時候國防部當時就有說我們要把\n\n13\n00:04:43,086 --> 00:04:43,106\n吳宗憲\n\n14\n00:05:00,404 --> 00:05:18,678\n不管發生怎麼樣,發生自殺啦,這種自殺案件,檢方就必須要去介入。就譬如說驗屍啦,或者是說我們去調查一下他到底是自殺還是他殺,或是背後有沒有一些狀況。那其實也無形的就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。\n\n15\n00:05:19,568 --> 00:05:41,213\n那部長其實在之前有檢討這個自殺案件一直增加的時候我看到有一個報導就是部長有提到說這個問題是出在有一些人他的壓力抗壓性比較弱我跟部長說其實這個話比較不妥啦因為大家比較希望就是說我們檢討制度出了什麼問題而不是\n\n16\n00:05:41,715 --> 00:05:41,735\n﹚吳宗憲\n\n17\n00:05:58,581 --> 00:06:01,082\n加以說明或是道歉或是收回之類的。\n\n18\n00:06:20,089 --> 00:06:20,109\n吳宗憲議員\n\n19\n00:06:43,638 --> 00:07:07,058\n同樣的工作加在不同的人身上他有不同反應就代表什麼每個人抗壓性他個性是有所不同的這的確也是在這個個人因素當中之一環但並沒有完全歸來哎呀他就抗壓性不夠我部長才沒有講過這句話所以這認知狀態加進來吧他引用你這一段好像不得了了這一點人性都沒有\n\n20\n00:07:07,739 --> 00:07:07,759\n吳宗憲\n\n21\n00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:37,809\n一法就外,一法就代表法,我不施案。這點我們已經提及很多,大家都會有疑議。甚至於調查當中,也請家人,你要委託誰,或萬一有專業人要加入,我們通通可以配合。這個我的確很坦白公開的,沒有講出來,認定他,錯斷他。\n\n22\n00:07:40,390 --> 00:08:02,681\n好的,謝謝部長。我們再來提一下,我們剛有秀出光是二月底到現在就非常多件。那我來提一個就是監察院之前針對陸軍第八軍團203旅的班長劉姓夏氏自殺的案件裡面,他其實有提到,我再唸給大家聽,就是近十年國際自殺案件中士官兵佔75%。\n\n23\n00:08:05,175 --> 00:08:28,054\n這代表國軍基層出了狀況。國防部對於視察、察覺軍官、士官、士兵環境身心狀況轉換的危機評估顯有不足。編制的心理輔導官的編制面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷。再來就是說這些有關精神疾病的判斷跟診療應該是要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處。\n\n24\n00:08:32,489 --> 00:08:52,369\n那國防部應該要引入這些資源。那部長我想請教一下監察院之前已經有做出這樣的調查的意旨了那國防部到目前為止為什麼發生智商的這個比例還是頻頻上升?所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好還是國防部沒有落實呢?\n\n25\n00:08:53,117 --> 00:09:17,151\n我首先跟委員報告,任何一項士官兵他們出了問題,領導幹部一定要負責,絕對不會脫開他個人的行為,不會。那我剛剛我也跟委員做了說明,這種事情一發生以後,我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們調查結果,我們覺得予以尊重。的確,國軍有很多地方沒有最好,但我們要不但要求比較好或更好。\n\n26\n00:09:17,711 --> 00:09:41,302\n在這個是我要努力的至於防處方面我們基本上部隊裡面就有三個防線這防線不是一個口號喔他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的這些就第一道防線所以我們現在可能欠缺講說他對他關注的這個內容啊或者這個層次可能不夠這種他沒講什麼應該OK啊\n\n27\n00:09:42,583 --> 00:10:00,575\n我就跟委員報告前一陣子發生的憲兵的事情,那個發生的時候,旁邊的人還跟他打招呼,沒有任何事,那我不推。部長,因為時間的關係,我想我知道部長的意思。那我想說,有關這個部分有些系統性上面的問題,還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力,因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝。\n\n28\n00:10:01,576 --> 00:10:23,846\n那他送到部隊了,但是希望說能夠平平安安的把服役服完,希望說部長就這部分能夠再用點心。那再來我們看一下,很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力,這個院長一定非常非常的清楚。那我們看一下國軍目前第一級這幾個狀況,什麼會符合國軍的第一級的情況,這幾個狀況。\n\n29\n00:10:26,874 --> 00:10:47,059\n沒有,我沒有講這個符合,我要跟委員剛好說明一下,這個第一集是改變,不是今年這些狀況才改變的。我在161年有些案件出來以後我就已經調整了。因為國防這個戰略規定是我國防部的權責,所以我就調了。調了以後為什麼?因為現在的第一集,\n\n30\n00:10:47,839 --> 00:10:48,640\n有人無人有時候很難辨識啊對不對\n\n31\n00:11:17,381 --> 00:11:43,940\n因為現在的無人機也很大一台所以我要跟委員報告一下這個程序一定要走完所以我們為什麼打訊號彈要警告要辨識要去確認確認以後再喊話不管透過什麼報告我自己的朋友他在第一線他是跟我說因為這個第一級他們都搞不清楚定義是什麼他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯\n\n32\n00:11:44,520 --> 00:12:09,550\n那到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是這武裝衝突法的規範,他們都搞不清楚。所以這一塊也要麻煩部長盡量在教育上面能夠落實,能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力,因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外,他們也很擔心說到底我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法,這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。\n\n33\n00:12:10,529 --> 00:12:23,668\n那我這邊也是要麻煩部長這一塊能夠稍微做一下。那再來部長從2024年開始我們兵役就要延長為一年了嘛。那依照我手中的數據今年會9100人,那到4年後會到35000人。\n\n34\n00:12:27,273 --> 00:12:55,294\n那所以呢這一次這個這個國防部跟法務部有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題那我們剛剛所提到的現在案子都要有普通法院以及地檢署管轄那將來這個一起延長到一年之後這個我想擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增部長您知不知道現在那個在處理案子的一審檢察官全國多少人知道嗎\n\n35\n00:12:56,249 --> 00:12:59,114\n總共到去年底是1065人,這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官,也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子的。\n\n36\n00:13:11,613 --> 00:13:31,589\n那在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對疫情延長到一年,到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題,這個是我很擔心的。所以我希望一件事情就是說,當年我們把軍審判法修改,我們從現在再往當年去看,有點類似頭痛一頭腳痛一腳。\n\n37\n00:13:33,130 --> 00:13:33,150\n吳宗憲\n\n38\n00:13:54,514 --> 00:13:54,534\n吳宗憲\n\n39\n00:14:12,154 --> 00:14:13,475\n現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官\n\n40\n00:14:34,830 --> 00:15:03,332\n其實都受不了因為我自己做過20年前阿公我很清楚現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已所以我們可以研擬一下看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理再麻煩部長能夠是我跟委員幾秒鐘我就跟您說說這案子陸海空軍刑法的修正跟這個軍人權益的管理的辦法我們要對決一定理好而且已經呈到行政院去\n\n41\n00:15:03,792 --> 00:15:06,073\n謝謝吳委員陣線的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,我們上午質詢到此為止。本次會議\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n830\t24632\t請院長及國防部長麻煩請陳院長國防部備詢。院長、部長,早安。好,早。委員長,抱歉點。院長,您的那個社會流行病學書我拜讀很多次,真的獲益良多,謝謝院長。不會,沒有,謝謝。我在這邊有幾個問題想要請教,就是,院長,\n25939\t49650\t我們知道就是依據憲法如果總統不能無法事事那就是由副總統代理那如果副總統也不行的話是由院長代理那我想請教一下院長如果我們今天呢執行到一半然後有突然這個國家這個警報簡訊大作那可能是飛彈的空襲警報那在這邊的話\n51397\t69834\t院長知道那個防空洞在哪裡嗎?這裡的防空設施我不太記得,應該看這裡的有地下室的地方。立法院其實是有一些避難設施,譬如說在青島會館、議場或中心大樓樓下都有。那我今天為什麼要提這個?因為\n70775\t99770\t畢竟兩岸現在比較兵兇戰危那隨時現在又講求是斬首他們的那個那個戰略方式是希望斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害所以啊院長在這裡其實我覺得我們也是隨時要有危機的意識那我們也是要知道一下這立法院哪個地方如果再發生一些緊急狀況的時候也能夠有地方可以去躲然後去避難那其實我覺得啦就是\n100540\t127151\t因為我自己擔任立委時間不長,但是我覺得這段時間我感覺是國家的狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危。昨天CNN也有一個報導,它的大概意思就是說以前認為台灣是一個最危險的地方,現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析,對或不對我想院長以及部長心裡一定都很清楚這整個狀況。\n128831\t128851\t吳宗憲\n159987\t173842\t那我想在這邊請教一下部長。部長請問一下您知道我們司法法治委員會監督的行政院部會中哪一個部會跟國防部目前那個最密切?\n181854\t195382\t對,我們跟很多部會都會有關聯,不管是海委會或者法務部,對政部有的也會有那我跟部長說明一下,其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫,尤其是在\n195782\t195802\t﹚吳宗憲\n221440\t234798\t現在這個狀況呢,軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署現在大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已,就沒有像以前一樣會有一些訴訟啊,軍事法院一些訴訟的案件在進行。那我想\n236892\t261822\t我想提一個東西就是說在這個狀況下在加重了普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下我們會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況部長您知道就是從今年二月底到現在發生了多少件這個軍人自殺的案件\n262398\t267019\t我知道這個數量來我們看一下這邊有2月26號到3月7號已經發生了那麼多件那其實這個數字應該算是不低尤其是在2016年的時候國防部當時就有說我們要把\n283086\t283106\t吳宗憲\n300404\t318678\t不管發生怎麼樣,發生自殺啦,這種自殺案件,檢方就必須要去介入。就譬如說驗屍啦,或者是說我們去調查一下他到底是自殺還是他殺,或是背後有沒有一些狀況。那其實也無形的就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。\n319568\t341213\t那部長其實在之前有檢討這個自殺案件一直增加的時候我看到有一個報導就是部長有提到說這個問題是出在有一些人他的壓力抗壓性比較弱我跟部長說其實這個話比較不妥啦因為大家比較希望就是說我們檢討制度出了什麼問題而不是\n341715\t341735\t﹚吳宗憲\n358581\t361082\t加以說明或是道歉或是收回之類的。\n380089\t380109\t吳宗憲議員\n403638\t427058\t同樣的工作加在不同的人身上他有不同反應就代表什麼每個人抗壓性他個性是有所不同的這的確也是在這個個人因素當中之一環但並沒有完全歸來哎呀他就抗壓性不夠我部長才沒有講過這句話所以這認知狀態加進來吧他引用你這一段好像不得了了這一點人性都沒有\n427739\t427759\t吳宗憲\n439520\t457809\t一法就外,一法就代表法,我不施案。 這點我們已經提及很多,大家都會有疑議。 甚至於調查當中,也請家人,你要委託誰,或萬一有專業人要加入,我們通通可以配合。 這個我的確很坦白公開的,沒有講出來,認定他,錯斷他。\n460390\t482681\t好的,謝謝部長。我們再來提一下,我們剛有秀出光是二月底到現在就非常多件。那我來提一個就是監察院之前針對陸軍第八軍團203旅的班長劉姓夏氏自殺的案件裡面,他其實有提到,我再唸給大家聽,就是近十年國際自殺案件中士官兵佔75%。\n485175\t508054\t這代表國軍基層出了狀況。國防部對於視察、察覺軍官、士官、士兵環境身心狀況轉換的危機評估顯有不足。編制的心理輔導官的編制面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷。再來就是說這些有關精神疾病的判斷跟診療應該是要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處。\n512489\t532369\t那國防部應該要引入這些資源。那部長我想請教一下監察院之前已經有做出這樣的調查的意旨了那國防部到目前為止為什麼發生智商的這個比例還是頻頻上升?所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好還是國防部沒有落實呢?\n533117\t557151\t我首先跟委員報告,任何一項士官兵他們出了問題,領導幹部一定要負責,絕對不會脫開他個人的行為,不會。那我剛剛我也跟委員做了說明,這種事情一發生以後,我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們調查結果,我們覺得予以尊重。 的確,國軍有很多地方沒有最好,但我們要不但要求比較好或更好。\n557711\t581302\t在這個是我要努力的至於防處方面我們基本上部隊裡面就有三個防線這防線不是一個口號喔他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的這些就第一道防線所以我們現在可能欠缺講說他對他關注的這個內容啊或者這個層次可能不夠這種他沒講什麼應該OK啊\n582583\t600575\t我就跟委員報告前一陣子發生的憲兵的事情,那個發生的時候,旁邊的人還跟他打招呼,沒有任何事,那我不推。部長,因為時間的關係,我想我知道部長的意思。那我想說,有關這個部分有些系統性上面的問題,還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力,因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝。\n601576\t623846\t那他送到部隊了,但是希望說能夠平平安安的把服役服完,希望說部長就這部分能夠再用點心。那再來我們看一下,很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力,這個院長一定非常非常的清楚。那我們看一下國軍目前第一級這幾個狀況,什麼會符合國軍的第一級的情況,這幾個狀況。\n626874\t647059\t沒有,我沒有講這個符合,我要跟委員剛好說明一下,這個第一集是改變,不是今年這些狀況才改變的。我在161年有些案件出來以後我就已經調整了。因為國防這個戰略規定是我國防部的權責,所以我就調了。調了以後為什麼?因為現在的第一集,\n647839\t648640\t有人無人有時候很難辨識啊 對不對\n677381\t703940\t因為現在的無人機也很大一台所以我要跟委員報告一下這個程序一定要走完所以我們為什麼打訊號彈要警告要辨識要去確認確認以後再喊話不管透過什麼報告我自己的朋友他在第一線他是跟我說因為這個第一級他們都搞不清楚定義是什麼他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯\n704520\t729550\t那到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是這武裝衝突法的規範,他們都搞不清楚。 所以這一塊也要麻煩部長盡量在教育上面能夠落實,能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力,因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外,他們也很擔心說到底我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法,這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。\n730529\t743668\t那我這邊也是要麻煩部長這一塊能夠稍微做一下。那再來部長從2024年開始我們兵役就要延長為一年了嘛。那依照我手中的數據今年會9100人,那到4年後會到35000人。\n747273\t775294\t那所以呢這一次這個這個國防部跟法務部有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題那我們剛剛所提到的現在案子都要有普通法院以及地檢署管轄那將來這個一起延長到一年之後這個我想擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增部長您知不知道現在那個在處理案子的一審檢察官全國多少人知道嗎\n776249\t779114\t總共到去年底是1065人,這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官,也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子的。\n791613\t811589\t那在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對疫情延長到一年,到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題,這個是我很擔心的。所以我希望一件事情就是說,當年我們把軍審判法修改,我們從現在再往當年去看,有點類似頭痛一頭腳痛一腳。\n813130\t813150\t吳宗憲\n834514\t834534\t吳宗憲\n852154\t853475\t現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官\n874830\t903332\t其實都受不了因為我自己做過20年前阿公我很清楚現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已所以我們可以研擬一下看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理再麻煩部長能夠是我跟委員幾秒鐘我就跟您說說這案子陸海空軍刑法的修正跟這個軍人權益的管理的辦法我們要對決一定理好而且已經呈到行政院去\n903792\t906073\t謝謝吳委員陣線的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,我們上午質詢到此為止。本次會議\n","txt":"請院長及國防部長麻煩請陳院長國防部備詢。院長、部長,早安。好,早。委員長,抱歉點。院長,您的那個社會流行病學書我拜讀很多次,真的獲益良多,謝謝院長。不會,沒有,謝謝。我在這邊有幾個問題想要請教,就是,院長,\n我們知道就是依據憲法如果總統不能無法事事那就是由副總統代理那如果副總統也不行的話是由院長代理那我想請教一下院長如果我們今天呢執行到一半然後有突然這個國家這個警報簡訊大作那可能是飛彈的空襲警報那在這邊的話\n院長知道那個防空洞在哪裡嗎?這裡的防空設施我不太記得,應該看這裡的有地下室的地方。立法院其實是有一些避難設施,譬如說在青島會館、議場或中心大樓樓下都有。那我今天為什麼要提這個?因為\n畢竟兩岸現在比較兵兇戰危那隨時現在又講求是斬首他們的那個那個戰略方式是希望斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害所以啊院長在這裡其實我覺得我們也是隨時要有危機的意識那我們也是要知道一下這立法院哪個地方如果再發生一些緊急狀況的時候也能夠有地方可以去躲然後去避難那其實我覺得啦就是\n因為我自己擔任立委時間不長,但是我覺得這段時間我感覺是國家的狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危。昨天CNN也有一個報導,它的大概意思就是說以前認為台灣是一個最危險的地方,現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析,對或不對我想院長以及部長心裡一定都很清楚這整個狀況。\n吳宗憲\n那我想在這邊請教一下部長。部長請問一下您知道我們司法法治委員會監督的行政院部會中哪一個部會跟國防部目前那個最密切?\n對,我們跟很多部會都會有關聯,不管是海委會或者法務部,對政部有的也會有那我跟部長說明一下,其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫,尤其是在\n﹚吳宗憲\n現在這個狀況呢,軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署現在大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已,就沒有像以前一樣會有一些訴訟啊,軍事法院一些訴訟的案件在進行。那我想\n我想提一個東西就是說在這個狀況下在加重了普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下我們會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況部長您知道就是從今年二月底到現在發生了多少件這個軍人自殺的案件\n我知道這個數量來我們看一下這邊有2月26號到3月7號已經發生了那麼多件那其實這個數字應該算是不低尤其是在2016年的時候國防部當時就有說我們要把\n吳宗憲\n不管發生怎麼樣,發生自殺啦,這種自殺案件,檢方就必須要去介入。就譬如說驗屍啦,或者是說我們去調查一下他到底是自殺還是他殺,或是背後有沒有一些狀況。那其實也無形的就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。\n那部長其實在之前有檢討這個自殺案件一直增加的時候我看到有一個報導就是部長有提到說這個問題是出在有一些人他的壓力抗壓性比較弱我跟部長說其實這個話比較不妥啦因為大家比較希望就是說我們檢討制度出了什麼問題而不是\n﹚吳宗憲\n加以說明或是道歉或是收回之類的。\n吳宗憲議員\n同樣的工作加在不同的人身上他有不同反應就代表什麼每個人抗壓性他個性是有所不同的這的確也是在這個個人因素當中之一環但並沒有完全歸來哎呀他就抗壓性不夠我部長才沒有講過這句話所以這認知狀態加進來吧他引用你這一段好像不得了了這一點人性都沒有\n吳宗憲\n一法就外,一法就代表法,我不施案。 這點我們已經提及很多,大家都會有疑議。 甚至於調查當中,也請家人,你要委託誰,或萬一有專業人要加入,我們通通可以配合。 這個我的確很坦白公開的,沒有講出來,認定他,錯斷他。\n好的,謝謝部長。我們再來提一下,我們剛有秀出光是二月底到現在就非常多件。那我來提一個就是監察院之前針對陸軍第八軍團203旅的班長劉姓夏氏自殺的案件裡面,他其實有提到,我再唸給大家聽,就是近十年國際自殺案件中士官兵佔75%。\n這代表國軍基層出了狀況。國防部對於視察、察覺軍官、士官、士兵環境身心狀況轉換的危機評估顯有不足。編制的心理輔導官的編制面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷。再來就是說這些有關精神疾病的判斷跟診療應該是要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處。\n那國防部應該要引入這些資源。那部長我想請教一下監察院之前已經有做出這樣的調查的意旨了那國防部到目前為止為什麼發生智商的這個比例還是頻頻上升?所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好還是國防部沒有落實呢?\n我首先跟委員報告,任何一項士官兵他們出了問題,領導幹部一定要負責,絕對不會脫開他個人的行為,不會。那我剛剛我也跟委員做了說明,這種事情一發生以後,我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們調查結果,我們覺得予以尊重。 的確,國軍有很多地方沒有最好,但我們要不但要求比較好或更好。\n在這個是我要努力的至於防處方面我們基本上部隊裡面就有三個防線這防線不是一個口號喔他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的這些就第一道防線所以我們現在可能欠缺講說他對他關注的這個內容啊或者這個層次可能不夠這種他沒講什麼應該OK啊\n我就跟委員報告前一陣子發生的憲兵的事情,那個發生的時候,旁邊的人還跟他打招呼,沒有任何事,那我不推。部長,因為時間的關係,我想我知道部長的意思。那我想說,有關這個部分有些系統性上面的問題,還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力,因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝。\n那他送到部隊了,但是希望說能夠平平安安的把服役服完,希望說部長就這部分能夠再用點心。那再來我們看一下,很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力,這個院長一定非常非常的清楚。那我們看一下國軍目前第一級這幾個狀況,什麼會符合國軍的第一級的情況,這幾個狀況。\n沒有,我沒有講這個符合,我要跟委員剛好說明一下,這個第一集是改變,不是今年這些狀況才改變的。我在161年有些案件出來以後我就已經調整了。因為國防這個戰略規定是我國防部的權責,所以我就調了。調了以後為什麼?因為現在的第一集,\n有人無人有時候很難辨識啊 對不對\n因為現在的無人機也很大一台所以我要跟委員報告一下這個程序一定要走完所以我們為什麼打訊號彈要警告要辨識要去確認確認以後再喊話不管透過什麼報告我自己的朋友他在第一線他是跟我說因為這個第一級他們都搞不清楚定義是什麼他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯\n那到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是這武裝衝突法的規範,他們都搞不清楚。 所以這一塊也要麻煩部長盡量在教育上面能夠落實,能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力,因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外,他們也很擔心說到底我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法,這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。\n那我這邊也是要麻煩部長這一塊能夠稍微做一下。那再來部長從2024年開始我們兵役就要延長為一年了嘛。那依照我手中的數據今年會9100人,那到4年後會到35000人。\n那所以呢這一次這個這個國防部跟法務部有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題那我們剛剛所提到的現在案子都要有普通法院以及地檢署管轄那將來這個一起延長到一年之後這個我想擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增部長您知不知道現在那個在處理案子的一審檢察官全國多少人知道嗎\n總共到去年底是1065人,這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官,也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子的。\n那在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對疫情延長到一年,到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題,這個是我很擔心的。所以我希望一件事情就是說,當年我們把軍審判法修改,我們從現在再往當年去看,有點類似頭痛一頭腳痛一腳。\n吳宗憲\n吳宗憲\n現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官\n其實都受不了因為我自己做過20年前阿公我很清楚現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已所以我們可以研擬一下看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理再麻煩部長能夠是我跟委員幾秒鐘我就跟您說說這案子陸海空軍刑法的修正跟這個軍人權益的管理的辦法我們要對決一定理好而且已經呈到行政院去\n謝謝吳委員陣線的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,我們上午質詢到此為止。本次會議\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.830 --> 00:24.632\n請院長及國防部長麻煩請陳院長國防部備詢。院長、部長,早安。好,早。委員長,抱歉點。院長,您的那個社會流行病學書我拜讀很多次,真的獲益良多,謝謝院長。不會,沒有,謝謝。我在這邊有幾個問題想要請教,就是,院長,\n\n00:25.939 --> 00:49.650\n我們知道就是依據憲法如果總統不能無法事事那就是由副總統代理那如果副總統也不行的話是由院長代理那我想請教一下院長如果我們今天呢執行到一半然後有突然這個國家這個警報簡訊大作那可能是飛彈的空襲警報那在這邊的話\n\n00:51.397 --> 01:09.834\n院長知道那個防空洞在哪裡嗎?這裡的防空設施我不太記得,應該看這裡的有地下室的地方。立法院其實是有一些避難設施,譬如說在青島會館、議場或中心大樓樓下都有。那我今天為什麼要提這個?因為\n\n01:10.775 --> 01:39.770\n畢竟兩岸現在比較兵兇戰危那隨時現在又講求是斬首他們的那個那個戰略方式是希望斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害所以啊院長在這裡其實我覺得我們也是隨時要有危機的意識那我們也是要知道一下這立法院哪個地方如果再發生一些緊急狀況的時候也能夠有地方可以去躲然後去避難那其實我覺得啦就是\n\n01:40.540 --> 02:07.151\n因為我自己擔任立委時間不長,但是我覺得這段時間我感覺是國家的狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危。昨天CNN也有一個報導,它的大概意思就是說以前認為台灣是一個最危險的地方,現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析,對或不對我想院長以及部長心裡一定都很清楚這整個狀況。\n\n02:08.831 --> 02:08.851\n吳宗憲\n\n02:39.987 --> 02:53.842\n那我想在這邊請教一下部長。部長請問一下您知道我們司法法治委員會監督的行政院部會中哪一個部會跟國防部目前那個最密切?\n\n03:01.854 --> 03:15.382\n對,我們跟很多部會都會有關聯,不管是海委會或者法務部,對政部有的也會有那我跟部長說明一下,其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫,尤其是在\n\n03:15.782 --> 03:15.802\n﹚吳宗憲\n\n03:41.440 --> 03:54.798\n現在這個狀況呢,軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署現在大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已,就沒有像以前一樣會有一些訴訟啊,軍事法院一些訴訟的案件在進行。那我想\n\n03:56.892 --> 04:21.822\n我想提一個東西就是說在這個狀況下在加重了普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下我們會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況部長您知道就是從今年二月底到現在發生了多少件這個軍人自殺的案件\n\n04:22.398 --> 04:27.019\n我知道這個數量來我們看一下這邊有2月26號到3月7號已經發生了那麼多件那其實這個數字應該算是不低尤其是在2016年的時候國防部當時就有說我們要把\n\n04:43.086 --> 04:43.106\n吳宗憲\n\n05:00.404 --> 05:18.678\n不管發生怎麼樣,發生自殺啦,這種自殺案件,檢方就必須要去介入。就譬如說驗屍啦,或者是說我們去調查一下他到底是自殺還是他殺,或是背後有沒有一些狀況。那其實也無形的就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。\n\n05:19.568 --> 05:41.213\n那部長其實在之前有檢討這個自殺案件一直增加的時候我看到有一個報導就是部長有提到說這個問題是出在有一些人他的壓力抗壓性比較弱我跟部長說其實這個話比較不妥啦因為大家比較希望就是說我們檢討制度出了什麼問題而不是\n\n05:41.715 --> 05:41.735\n﹚吳宗憲\n\n05:58.581 --> 06:01.082\n加以說明或是道歉或是收回之類的。\n\n06:20.089 --> 06:20.109\n吳宗憲議員\n\n06:43.638 --> 07:07.058\n同樣的工作加在不同的人身上他有不同反應就代表什麼每個人抗壓性他個性是有所不同的這的確也是在這個個人因素當中之一環但並沒有完全歸來哎呀他就抗壓性不夠我部長才沒有講過這句話所以這認知狀態加進來吧他引用你這一段好像不得了了這一點人性都沒有\n\n07:07.739 --> 07:07.759\n吳宗憲\n\n07:19.520 --> 07:37.809\n一法就外,一法就代表法,我不施案。這點我們已經提及很多,大家都會有疑議。甚至於調查當中,也請家人,你要委託誰,或萬一有專業人要加入,我們通通可以配合。這個我的確很坦白公開的,沒有講出來,認定他,錯斷他。\n\n07:40.390 --> 08:02.681\n好的,謝謝部長。我們再來提一下,我們剛有秀出光是二月底到現在就非常多件。那我來提一個就是監察院之前針對陸軍第八軍團203旅的班長劉姓夏氏自殺的案件裡面,他其實有提到,我再唸給大家聽,就是近十年國際自殺案件中士官兵佔75%。\n\n08:05.175 --> 08:28.054\n這代表國軍基層出了狀況。國防部對於視察、察覺軍官、士官、士兵環境身心狀況轉換的危機評估顯有不足。編制的心理輔導官的編制面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷。再來就是說這些有關精神疾病的判斷跟診療應該是要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處。\n\n08:32.489 --> 08:52.369\n那國防部應該要引入這些資源。那部長我想請教一下監察院之前已經有做出這樣的調查的意旨了那國防部到目前為止為什麼發生智商的這個比例還是頻頻上升?所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好還是國防部沒有落實呢?\n\n08:53.117 --> 09:17.151\n我首先跟委員報告,任何一項士官兵他們出了問題,領導幹部一定要負責,絕對不會脫開他個人的行為,不會。那我剛剛我也跟委員做了說明,這種事情一發生以後,我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們調查結果,我們覺得予以尊重。的確,國軍有很多地方沒有最好,但我們要不但要求比較好或更好。\n\n09:17.711 --> 09:41.302\n在這個是我要努力的至於防處方面我們基本上部隊裡面就有三個防線這防線不是一個口號喔他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的這些就第一道防線所以我們現在可能欠缺講說他對他關注的這個內容啊或者這個層次可能不夠這種他沒講什麼應該OK啊\n\n09:42.583 --> 10:00.575\n我就跟委員報告前一陣子發生的憲兵的事情,那個發生的時候,旁邊的人還跟他打招呼,沒有任何事,那我不推。部長,因為時間的關係,我想我知道部長的意思。那我想說,有關這個部分有些系統性上面的問題,還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力,因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝。\n\n10:01.576 --> 10:23.846\n那他送到部隊了,但是希望說能夠平平安安的把服役服完,希望說部長就這部分能夠再用點心。那再來我們看一下,很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力,這個院長一定非常非常的清楚。那我們看一下國軍目前第一級這幾個狀況,什麼會符合國軍的第一級的情況,這幾個狀況。\n\n10:26.874 --> 10:47.059\n沒有,我沒有講這個符合,我要跟委員剛好說明一下,這個第一集是改變,不是今年這些狀況才改變的。我在161年有些案件出來以後我就已經調整了。因為國防這個戰略規定是我國防部的權責,所以我就調了。調了以後為什麼?因為現在的第一集,\n\n10:47.839 --> 10:48.640\n有人無人有時候很難辨識啊對不對\n\n11:17.381 --> 11:43.940\n因為現在的無人機也很大一台所以我要跟委員報告一下這個程序一定要走完所以我們為什麼打訊號彈要警告要辨識要去確認確認以後再喊話不管透過什麼報告我自己的朋友他在第一線他是跟我說因為這個第一級他們都搞不清楚定義是什麼他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯\n\n11:44.520 --> 12:09.550\n那到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是這武裝衝突法的規範,他們都搞不清楚。所以這一塊也要麻煩部長盡量在教育上面能夠落實,能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力,因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外,他們也很擔心說到底我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法,這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。\n\n12:10.529 --> 12:23.668\n那我這邊也是要麻煩部長這一塊能夠稍微做一下。那再來部長從2024年開始我們兵役就要延長為一年了嘛。那依照我手中的數據今年會9100人,那到4年後會到35000人。\n\n12:27.273 --> 12:55.294\n那所以呢這一次這個這個國防部跟法務部有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題那我們剛剛所提到的現在案子都要有普通法院以及地檢署管轄那將來這個一起延長到一年之後這個我想擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增部長您知不知道現在那個在處理案子的一審檢察官全國多少人知道嗎\n\n12:56.249 --> 12:59.114\n總共到去年底是1065人,這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官,也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子的。\n\n13:11.613 --> 13:31.589\n那在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對疫情延長到一年,到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題,這個是我很擔心的。所以我希望一件事情就是說,當年我們把軍審判法修改,我們從現在再往當年去看,有點類似頭痛一頭腳痛一腳。\n\n13:33.130 --> 13:33.150\n吳宗憲\n\n13:54.514 --> 13:54.534\n吳宗憲\n\n14:12.154 --> 14:13.475\n現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官\n\n14:34.830 --> 15:03.332\n其實都受不了因為我自己做過20年前阿公我很清楚現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已所以我們可以研擬一下看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理再麻煩部長能夠是我跟委員幾秒鐘我就跟您說說這案子陸海空軍刑法的修正跟這個軍人權益的管理的辦法我們要對決一定理好而且已經呈到行政院去\n\n15:03.792 --> 15:06.073\n謝謝吳委員陣線的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,我們上午質詢到此為止。本次會議\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.83,"end":24.632,"text":"請院長及國防部長麻煩請陳院長國防部備詢。院長、部長,早安。好,早。委員長,抱歉點。院長,您的那個社會流行病學書我拜讀很多次,真的獲益良多,謝謝院長。不會,沒有,謝謝。我在這邊有幾個問題想要請教,就是,院長,"},{"start":25.939,"end":49.65,"text":"我們知道就是依據憲法如果總統不能無法事事那就是由副總統代理那如果副總統也不行的話是由院長代理那我想請教一下院長如果我們今天呢執行到一半然後有突然這個國家這個警報簡訊大作那可能是飛彈的空襲警報那在這邊的話"},{"start":51.397,"end":69.834,"text":"院長知道那個防空洞在哪裡嗎?這裡的防空設施我不太記得,應該看這裡的有地下室的地方。立法院其實是有一些避難設施,譬如說在青島會館、議場或中心大樓樓下都有。那我今天為什麼要提這個?因為"},{"start":70.775,"end":99.77,"text":"畢竟兩岸現在比較兵兇戰危那隨時現在又講求是斬首他們的那個那個戰略方式是希望斬首的方向來減少對平民的傷害所以啊院長在這裡其實我覺得我們也是隨時要有危機的意識那我們也是要知道一下這立法院哪個地方如果再發生一些緊急狀況的時候也能夠有地方可以去躲然後去避難那其實我覺得啦就是"},{"start":100.54,"end":127.151,"text":"因為我自己擔任立委時間不長,但是我覺得這段時間我感覺是國家的狀況好像越來越走向兵凶戰危。昨天CNN也有一個報導,它的大概意思就是說以前認為台灣是一個最危險的地方,現在變得更危險。當然這個是國外媒體對我們的分析,對或不對我想院長以及部長心裡一定都很清楚這整個狀況。"},{"start":128.831,"end":128.851,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":159.987,"end":173.842,"text":"那我想在這邊請教一下部長。部長請問一下您知道我們司法法治委員會監督的行政院部會中哪一個部會跟國防部目前那個最密切?"},{"start":181.854,"end":195.382,"text":"對,我們跟很多部會都會有關聯,不管是海委會或者法務部,對政部有的也會有那我跟部長說明一下,其實跟法務部有蠻多的聯繫,尤其是在"},{"start":195.782,"end":195.802,"text":"﹚吳宗憲"},{"start":221.44,"end":234.798,"text":"現在這個狀況呢,軍事法院跟軍事法院檢察署現在大概都是處理一些刑事補償案件而已,就沒有像以前一樣會有一些訴訟啊,軍事法院一些訴訟的案件在進行。那我想"},{"start":236.892,"end":261.822,"text":"我想提一個東西就是說在這個狀況下在加重了普通法院這麼多工作量的情況下我們會不會發生一個狀況就是還沒有到戰爭爆發我們的內部就已經出了很多狀況部長您知道就是從今年二月底到現在發生了多少件這個軍人自殺的案件"},{"start":262.398,"end":267.019,"text":"我知道這個數量來我們看一下這邊有2月26號到3月7號已經發生了那麼多件那其實這個數字應該算是不低尤其是在2016年的時候國防部當時就有說我們要把"},{"start":283.086,"end":283.106,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":300.404,"end":318.678,"text":"不管發生怎麼樣,發生自殺啦,這種自殺案件,檢方就必須要去介入。就譬如說驗屍啦,或者是說我們去調查一下他到底是自殺還是他殺,或是背後有沒有一些狀況。那其實也無形的就增加了檢方非常多的工作量。"},{"start":319.568,"end":341.213,"text":"那部長其實在之前有檢討這個自殺案件一直增加的時候我看到有一個報導就是部長有提到說這個問題是出在有一些人他的壓力抗壓性比較弱我跟部長說其實這個話比較不妥啦因為大家比較希望就是說我們檢討制度出了什麼問題而不是"},{"start":341.715,"end":341.735,"text":"﹚吳宗憲"},{"start":358.581,"end":361.082,"text":"加以說明或是道歉或是收回之類的。"},{"start":380.089,"end":380.109,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":403.638,"end":427.058,"text":"同樣的工作加在不同的人身上他有不同反應就代表什麼每個人抗壓性他個性是有所不同的這的確也是在這個個人因素當中之一環但並沒有完全歸來哎呀他就抗壓性不夠我部長才沒有講過這句話所以這認知狀態加進來吧他引用你這一段好像不得了了這一點人性都沒有"},{"start":427.739,"end":427.759,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":439.52,"end":457.809,"text":"一法就外,一法就代表法,我不施案。 這點我們已經提及很多,大家都會有疑議。 甚至於調查當中,也請家人,你要委託誰,或萬一有專業人要加入,我們通通可以配合。 這個我的確很坦白公開的,沒有講出來,認定他,錯斷他。"},{"start":460.39,"end":482.681,"text":"好的,謝謝部長。我們再來提一下,我們剛有秀出光是二月底到現在就非常多件。那我來提一個就是監察院之前針對陸軍第八軍團203旅的班長劉姓夏氏自殺的案件裡面,他其實有提到,我再唸給大家聽,就是近十年國際自殺案件中士官兵佔75%。"},{"start":485.175,"end":508.054,"text":"這代表國軍基層出了狀況。國防部對於視察、察覺軍官、士官、士兵環境身心狀況轉換的危機評估顯有不足。編制的心理輔導官的編制面對軍中龐大的人數也無法負荷。再來就是說這些有關精神疾病的判斷跟診療應該是要由專業的精神科醫師進行協處。"},{"start":512.489,"end":532.369,"text":"那國防部應該要引入這些資源。那部長我想請教一下監察院之前已經有做出這樣的調查的意旨了那國防部到目前為止為什麼發生智商的這個比例還是頻頻上升?所以這個是當初監察院的報告沒有做好還是國防部沒有落實呢?"},{"start":533.117,"end":557.151,"text":"我首先跟委員報告,任何一項士官兵他們出了問題,領導幹部一定要負責,絕對不會脫開他個人的行為,不會。那我剛剛我也跟委員做了說明,這種事情一發生以後,我們會從多方面來考量。監察委員給我們調查結果,我們覺得予以尊重。 的確,國軍有很多地方沒有最好,但我們要不但要求比較好或更好。"},{"start":557.711,"end":581.302,"text":"在這個是我要努力的至於防處方面我們基本上部隊裡面就有三個防線這防線不是一個口號喔他的幹部每天跟他相處在一道旁邊周邊這些人都是每天日夜相處的這些就第一道防線所以我們現在可能欠缺講說他對他關注的這個內容啊或者這個層次可能不夠這種他沒講什麼應該OK啊"},{"start":582.583,"end":600.575,"text":"我就跟委員報告前一陣子發生的憲兵的事情,那個發生的時候,旁邊的人還跟他打招呼,沒有任何事,那我不推。部長,因為時間的關係,我想我知道部長的意思。那我想說,有關這個部分有些系統性上面的問題,還是要麻煩部長能夠多用點力,因為每一個人都是家中的寶貝。"},{"start":601.576,"end":623.846,"text":"那他送到部隊了,但是希望說能夠平平安安的把服役服完,希望說部長就這部分能夠再用點心。那再來我們看一下,很多自殺一定是源自於心理壓力,這個院長一定非常非常的清楚。那我們看一下國軍目前第一級這幾個狀況,什麼會符合國軍的第一級的情況,這幾個狀況。"},{"start":626.874,"end":647.059,"text":"沒有,我沒有講這個符合,我要跟委員剛好說明一下,這個第一集是改變,不是今年這些狀況才改變的。我在161年有些案件出來以後我就已經調整了。因為國防這個戰略規定是我國防部的權責,所以我就調了。調了以後為什麼?因為現在的第一集,"},{"start":647.839,"end":648.64,"text":"有人無人有時候很難辨識啊 對不對"},{"start":677.381,"end":703.94,"text":"因為現在的無人機也很大一台所以我要跟委員報告一下這個程序一定要走完所以我們為什麼打訊號彈要警告要辨識要去確認確認以後再喊話不管透過什麼報告我自己的朋友他在第一線他是跟我說因為這個第一級他們都搞不清楚定義是什麼他們也很怕做了什麼行為之後會不會被當作罪犯"},{"start":704.52,"end":729.55,"text":"那到底他的作為符不符合國際法或者是這武裝衝突法的規範,他們都搞不清楚。 所以這一塊也要麻煩部長盡量在教育上面能夠落實,能夠讓第一線的官兵他們心裡不要有那麼大的壓力,因為他們現在的壓力除了軍中一些管教問題之外,他們也很擔心說到底我今天為了國家做了這個反擊動作到底合不合法,這是他們心裡一個很大的壓力。"},{"start":730.529,"end":743.668,"text":"那我這邊也是要麻煩部長這一塊能夠稍微做一下。那再來部長從2024年開始我們兵役就要延長為一年了嘛。那依照我手中的數據今年會9100人,那到4年後會到35000人。"},{"start":747.273,"end":775.294,"text":"那所以呢這一次這個這個國防部跟法務部有討論到軍人逃亡的這個問題那我們剛剛所提到的現在案子都要有普通法院以及地檢署管轄那將來這個一起延長到一年之後這個我想擔心的就是案件量一定會暴增部長您知不知道現在那個在處理案子的一審檢察官全國多少人知道嗎"},{"start":776.249,"end":779.114,"text":"總共到去年底是1065人,這個還包括了公訴檢察官、執行科檢察官,也就是說不是每一個都在辦案子的。"},{"start":791.613,"end":811.589,"text":"那在辦案子的檢察官將來要面對疫情延長到一年,到時候人力上面會不會有很大的問題,這個是我很擔心的。所以我希望一件事情就是說,當年我們把軍審判法修改,我們從現在再往當年去看,有點類似頭痛一頭腳痛一腳。"},{"start":813.13,"end":813.15,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":834.514,"end":834.534,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":852.154,"end":853.475,"text":"現在基層第一審的檢察官以及法官"},{"start":874.83,"end":903.332,"text":"其實都受不了因為我自己做過20年前阿公我很清楚現在的案件量不要再講裁判品質了人民不信任司法是剛剛好而已所以我們可以研擬一下看能不能夠把這個轉回去由軍事審判來處理再麻煩部長能夠是我跟委員幾秒鐘我就跟您說說這案子陸海空軍刑法的修正跟這個軍人權益的管理的辦法我們要對決一定理好而且已經呈到行政院去"},{"start":903.792,"end":906.073,"text":"謝謝吳委員陣線的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。報告院會,我們上午質詢到此為止。本次會議"}]}}}}