{"id":149754,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903dfe2713a715715ff96e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a6e719f831ea1415b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:01:36 - 10:12:26","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":650,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:12:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:01:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":196,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請徐佳青委員長，謝謝。"],["主席：請徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：沈委員，你好。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，委員長你好。我還在民間的時候常常參與國外的活動，所以很常遇到僑委會。我覺得對於國人來講，畢竟有很多事務都是由外交部負責，所以很多人都會認為我們為什麼還需要僑委會？我今天藉由這些問題讓僑委會跟國人說明，現在僑委會的工作到底是什麼。第一個，我認為稍微比較重要的就是中國，畢竟中國也有類似的僑務工作，2018年中國就把僑務工作弄到統戰部了，也就是說，現在這變成是他們統戰的一環，統戰原本就是中國的事務，跟我們沒有什麼關係，但中國對於海外的臺灣人也納入他們的統戰範圍，所以現在必須講，除了我們今天國內各式各樣的在地協力者跟中國應合，成為統戰的對象之外，其實海外完全是第二戰場。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：這幾次我們就發現，譬如在我們政治人物訪美等等的時候發現，中國可能以大使館那一邊，他們可能會去動員一些他們的人，但他們的僑務工作也可能會統戰我們的人民，到那邊去做一些抗議的活動，所以在那邊會變成有點中國人、臺灣人不分的問題出現，有點是被統戰了，畢竟這件事情可能跟僑委會的核心業務比較有關係，不知道僑委會現在對於這件事情的應對是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：隨著這20年來中國的海外移民越來越多，中國的長臂管轄確實也把範圍越伸越大，尤其近年來我們發現，在疫情前後都有制度性跟組織性的狀況發生，我們也都很密切的蒐集各種情資，瞭解這有沒有滲入到我們相關的僑團裡面，到目前為止，我們都沒有具體看到中國的僑辦把手直接伸到臺灣的相關僑團裡面，倒是對於中國移民的控制、監控是越趨嚴格的狀態，甚至也波及到那些早年、一百多年前的傳統僑社，他們可能無端的在一些資訊上面被波及到。"],["沈委員伯洋：記得前陣子在加州教會也發生一些恐怖攻擊，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：他們也是針對我們海外的同胞，可能長期以來對他們滲透，也有一些微信群組等等之類的，在長期接受這些中國製造的消息之後，他們越來越覺得，他們不只認為臺灣的臺獨分子才是敵人，認為在海外的臺獨分子也是敵人，所以就會造成這樣的悲劇。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，沈委員提示的確實是一個很大且我們該注意的事項，所以去年我上任之後也責成我們同仁要快速掌握，在各個不同僑團中如果有一些假訊息，或者有一些中國不當滲透的資訊，要快速的在2個小時內進行回報的一些SOP作業，就是不希望臺灣或者是中華民國的僑民在海外被中國統戰，造成一些錯誤的行為。去年發生了一件很不幸的案件，我們也覺得這件事情……這個當事人是參加了統促黨的相關周邊社團活動，因此我們也提高警覺，提醒所有僑團注意類似狀況，如果有類似這樣的訊息時，請他們可以提供給我們僑務祕書，讓僑務祕書可以進行瞭解跟通報，這樣我們也可以提早提供資訊，讓這種悲劇不要再發生。"],["沈委員伯洋：很高興有這樣的預警機制，對中國來講，他們做這些事情畢竟都還是漸進式的，譬如說我們看到他們有假消息的散播，或者一些謠言的散播，如果能夠即時，剛剛講到是兩小時嘛，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：如果有這樣的通報，我們就會知道他們的觸角可能已經伸到哪裡。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：當然他們還會有一些更軟性的措施，譬如說跟經濟相關的，他們想要用一帶一路等等這些方式，是一些比較軟性的，然後藉由經濟的方式先拉攏一些我們海外的僑胞，再慢慢的做一些剛剛講的滲透工作。除了剛剛講的虛假訊息、謠言之外，這些經濟的統戰可能也會是一個預警的機制，可能也是我們要掌握的。不知道僑委會對於經濟這方面，在中國措施的反制或者說監測的方向是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：中國運用和平統一促進會這樣的模式，確實在各個國家、各個地區的僑團不斷的去設立，也不乏有傳統的僑民、中國僑民跟部分的臺灣僑民去參加，確實是有的，剛剛講的那個例子就是他在拉斯維加斯，長期都有很多錯誤的資訊。針對用經濟手段來執行的，在疫情前可以說是達到高峰，疫情當中就逐漸緩步下來，近年雖然還是持續有用一帶一路的這種倡議，希望能夠拉攏海外的勢力跟僑團，但是我們有觀察到，由於經濟的消漲跟美中的貿易戰、經濟戰、科技戰等趨勢變化，看起來這方面的運作有轉趨低調的型態，但是我們都高度提醒我們的僑民、臺商，如果這方面可能有人提出想要跟他們合作的訴求時，希望他們可以提供我們相關的訊息。到目前為止，確實我們的大部分僑團也都非常團結，他們一旦有這方面的訊息都會立即跟我們通報。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝委員的解釋。禮拜一我跟國安局長討論的時候，也發現這樣的一個現象，他們在統戰的資源跟他們放假消息這方面的資源，其實有一點此消彼長的關係。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：在疫情的時候因為經濟疲弱，對他們來講要進行這種海外的統戰，在經濟上用錢砸下去，變得越來越不容易。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是兩個方向，第一個就是放假消息，這個對它來講非常容易，沒有什麼成本；另外一個是去擴張它執法的權力，剛剛前面提到他們擴張司法權。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛好下一個我想問的問題，因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高，就是這種海外警察的設置，這件事情當然它比較偏向是中國對全世界管轄權的擴張。目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情，有影響到臺灣僑胞的不管是安全，甚至他的言論自由等等之類的案例？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們唯一有一個案例就是，我在去年已經報告過，巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心，由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好，所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過，FB也連續被攻擊了4次。但是從第一次發生以後，我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案，因此法國警察也積極追查，確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾，所以後來這個被鎖定以後，他們後續就沒有再受到這樣的干擾。","但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺，在全球各地這樣的狀況，資訊或者是網站，或者是相關的這種干擾情況可能會無所不在。所以我們派駐各地的僑務秘書，我們也都給他們進行相關的課程，提醒他們要有一些這樣子的意識，提高警覺，能夠隨時掌握，各地如果有一些對岸、中國的團體新設立，他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會或者是什麼商會等等之類的名義之下，但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者相關的官方單位並執行監控當地中國僑民，這是他們主要的目標，連帶地透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我覺得從2023年下半年開始，他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少，但是不管是這種假消息、謠言以及司法權的擴張，大概最近做得比較多，所以對於未來的工作來講，針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響，有可能反而要特別提高警覺，這是我的一個簡單建議。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來，剛剛講到我們海外其實大家都蠻團結的，會回報訊息、中國各式各樣的一些可疑活動，但是畢竟還是會遇到一些我們的僑務委員可能跟中國有些頻繁的互動，甚至去參與活動。我有看到這個須知，我知道他們做這個工作也是辛苦，我們在須知上面特別提到不能夠再參加相關的活動，但我不知道僑務委員會未來會不會有更嚴厲的一些措施，或者有更強硬的牙齒，可以讓他們不要去做這樣的事情，雖然它是少數的個案。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求，他不能跟對岸進行任何官方直接的公開接觸，或私下也都不行。確實在2014年的那個過程當中，馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國進行官方接觸，後來這些都被開除僑務委員的這個職稱，也沒有給他職務了。我們對於類似這種榮譽職，雖然沒有給他們任何薪資或者是任何硬性的規範，可是我們在提醒上面都一再說，做生意是一回事，但是要注意對岸的統戰，不要跟他們官方有任何具體公開的接觸。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝沈委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林楚茵委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"149754","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149754","tool":"pyannote","id":"149754-pyannote"},"job_id":"WZUyhVIQ2ch2lBDh","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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448.267, \"end\": 448.388, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 448.388, \"end\": 448.608, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 448.608, \"end\": 448.828, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 448.828, \"end\": 449.069, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 449.069, \"end\": 449.189, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 449.189, \"end\": 449.689, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 449.689, \"end\": 449.77, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 449.77, \"end\": 449.83, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 449.83, \"end\": 449.93, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 449.93, \"end\": 450.05, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 450.05, \"end\": 450.411, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 450.411, \"end\": 450.571, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 450.571, \"end\": 450.691, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"啊\", 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 605.619, \"end\": 605.739, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 605.739, \"end\": 606.06, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 606.06, \"end\": 606.76, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 606.76, \"end\": 607.28, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 607.28, \"end\": 607.64, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 607.64, \"end\": 607.82, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 607.82, \"end\": 607.96, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 607.96, \"end\": 608.2, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 608.2, \"end\": 608.42, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 608.42, \"end\": 608.72, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 608.72, \"end\": 608.9, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 608.9, \"end\": 609.12, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 609.12, \"end\": 609.56, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 620.943, \"end\": 620.963, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 620.963, \"end\": 620.983, \"score\": 0.025}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 623.323, \"end\": 623.423, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"：\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 623.423, \"end\": 623.523, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 623.523, \"end\": 623.543, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,289 --> 00:00:04,333\n那謝謝主席那有請這個徐佳青委員長謝謝請徐委員長沈委員你好好委員長你好齁這個我還在民間的時候呢常常參與國外的活動齁所以很常遇到僑委會啦齁那當然齁我覺得對國人來講齁畢竟我們很多的事務都是由外交部來負責所以很多人都會認為說為什麼我們還需要僑委會齁\n\n2\n00:00:27,313 --> 00:00:46,544\n所以當然我覺得今天藉由這一些問題可能讓僑委會也是跟國人說明到底現在僑委會的工作是什麼那第一個我認為稍微比較重要的就是中國因為畢竟中國他們也有類似的僑務工作那在2018年中國就把這個僑務工作弄到這個統戰部了也就是說這個變成是他們現在統戰的一環\n\n3\n00:00:49,486 --> 00:01:06,421\n統戰的一環原本這是中國的事務跟我們沒有什麼關係但中國對於海外的台灣人也納入他的統戰範圍所以現在必須講說除了我們今天國內各式各樣的在地協力者跟中國應和成為這個統戰的對象之外其實海外完全是這個第二戰場\n\n4\n00:01:07,723 --> 00:01:25,919\n所以現在因為這幾次我們就發現譬如說在我們的政治人物訪美什麼等等的時候會發現當然中國可能以大使館那一邊他可能會去動員一些他們的人但他們的僑務工作也會可能會統戰我們的人民到那邊去做一些抗議的活動\n\n5\n00:01:26,579 --> 00:01:40,738\n所以會變成說在那邊有點中國人台灣人不分的這個問題出現就有點是被統戰了所以想知道僑委會因為畢竟這件事情可能跟僑委的核心業務比較有關係所以不知道僑委會現在對於這件事情的應對是什麼\n\n6\n00:01:43,100 --> 00:02:06,732\n目前因為隨著這20年來中國的這個海外移民越來越多那中國的長臂管轄確實也把這個範圍越深越大那尤其近年來我們在疫情前後呢都發現這個制度性跟組織性的狀況在發生那我們也都很密切的在收集各種的情資瞭解說這個有沒有滲入到我們的這個相關橋團裡面來\n\n7\n00:02:10,033 --> 00:02:18,319\n到目前為止我們都沒有具體的看到中國的這些僑辦他們把手直接就伸到這個臺灣的相關僑團裡面倒是對於比較是中國的移民的控制監控上是越區的這個嚴格的狀態\n\n8\n00:02:33,590 --> 00:02:33,710\n沈伯洋\n\n9\n00:02:53,636 --> 00:02:55,877\n臺灣的臺獨分子才是敵人,他認為在海外的臺獨分子也是他們的敵人,所以就會造成這樣的悲劇。\n\n10\n00:03:13,664 --> 00:03:39,666\n對,沈委員講的提示的確實是一個很大的我們該注意的事項所以去年我上任之後也責成我們同仁說要快速的掌握在各個不同僑團當中如果有一些假訊息或者有一些中國不當的滲透的資訊要快速的在兩個小時內回報的一些SOP作業就是不希望說台灣或者是中華民國的僑民在海外呢\n\n11\n00:03:40,346 --> 00:03:51,568\n被中國方面統戰而造成一些錯誤的這個行為那去年當然發生了一件很不幸的案件我們也覺得這件事情當然這個就是當事人是參加的這個叫做統促黨的這個叫做相關的周邊社團活動那因此我們也提高警覺說類似這樣的狀況提醒我們所有的僑團如果有類似不同的這樣子訊息的時候請他們可以\n\n12\n00:04:09,052 --> 00:04:35,341\n提供給我們僑務秘書讓我們僑務秘書可以來進行瞭解跟通報那這樣我們也可以提早提供資訊讓這種悲劇不要再發生那很高興有這樣的預警機制因為對中國來講他做這些事情畢竟都還是漸進式的所以譬如說他我們看到他們有假消息的散播或者一些謠言的散播如果能夠在即時剛剛講到是兩小時嘛對不對所以如果有這樣的一個通報的話我們就會知道說他的觸角可能已經伸到哪裡\n\n13\n00:04:36,761 --> 00:05:04,231\n但是當然他還會有一些更軟性的措施比如說跟經濟相關的比如說我把它放在這一邊就是他們想要在這個用一帶一路啊什麼等等的這些方式呢他是一些比較軟性的然後藉由經濟的方式先拉攏一些我們海外的僑胞然後再慢慢的再做剛剛講的一些滲透工作所以呢除了剛剛講的這些虛假訊息謠言之外呢這些經濟的統戰可能也會是一個預警的一個機制就是可能也是我們要掌握的\n\n14\n00:05:04,531 --> 00:05:31,877\n那不知道僑委會對於經濟這方面中國的一個措施的一個反制或者說一個監測的方向是什麼中國方面他們運用這個和平統一促進會這樣的模式確實在各個國家各個地區的僑團來不斷的去設立那也不乏有傳統的僑民中國的僑民跟部分的台灣僑民去參加確實是有的剛剛講的那個例子就是他是在拉斯維加斯的\n\n15\n00:05:32,557 --> 00:05:39,139\n然後這個長期都有很多錯誤的資訊那針對用經濟手段來執行的這個在疫情前是可以說達到高峰那疫情當中就逐漸的這個緩步下來近年來雖然還是持續有這些用一帶一路的這種倡議希望能夠拉攏這些海外的勢力跟橋團但是我們有觀察到由於這個經濟的消長\n\n16\n00:05:59,185 --> 00:06:03,768\n跟這個中美美中的這個貿易戰經濟戰科技戰等等的趨勢變化看起來這一方面的這種運作呢有轉趨低調的形態但是我們都高度的提醒我們的僑民台商就是說如果在進行這方面有可能有人去跟你做想要合作的這種訴求的時候希望他們可以提供我們相關的訊息\n\n17\n00:06:26,403 --> 00:06:33,688\n到目前為止確實我們的大部分僑團也都非常團結他們一旦有這方面的訊息都會立即跟我們通報\n\n18\n00:06:35,795 --> 00:06:58,307\n感謝委員的解釋,畢竟在禮拜一的時候,我在跟國安局長討論的時候,也發現這樣的一個現象,就是他們在統戰的資源,跟他們放假消息這方面的資源,其實有一點此消彼長的關係。在疫情的時候,因為經濟疲弱,對他們來講,要進行這種海外的統戰,變成說用經濟的這種錢砸下去,變得越來越不容易。\n\n19\n00:06:59,948 --> 00:07:20,838\n兩個方向第一個就是放假消息這個對他來講非常容易沒有什麼成本另外一個就是呢去擴張他的執法的權利剛剛前面有提到他們擴張這個司法權所以這邊也是剛好下一個我想問的問題就是因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高就是這種海外警察的一個設置那目前來講這件事情當然他比較偏向是中國對全世界的這種管轄權的擴張\n\n20\n00:07:22,799 --> 00:07:31,753\n那目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情是有影響到我們的台灣的僑報的一些不管是安全啊或者說甚至他的言論自由啊等等之類的案例呢\n\n21\n00:07:33,169 --> 00:07:57,065\n我們唯一有一個案例就是我在去年已經報告過就是巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過這個FB然後也連續被攻擊了4次但是從第一次發生以後我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案\n\n22\n00:07:58,025 --> 00:08:03,868\n因此法國警察也積極去追查確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾所以後來這個有被鎖定以後他們就後續沒有再接受到這樣的干擾但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺在全球各地這樣的狀況可能會資訊或者是網站或者是相關的這種干擾情況可能會無所不在\n\n23\n00:08:26,238 --> 00:08:26,318\n委員長沈伯洋\n\n24\n00:08:41,232 --> 00:09:02,373\n各地如果有一些對岸中國團體的新設立他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會或者是什麼商會等等之類的這種名義之下但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者是相關的官方單位執行某種監控他們當地中國僑民是他們主要的目標然後連帶的透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作\n\n25\n00:09:06,209 --> 00:09:21,620\n因為我覺得從2023年的下半年開始他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少但是不管是這種假消息謠言以及這種司法權的擴張是大概最近做的比較多所以對於未來的工作來講針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響有可能\n\n26\n00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:22,120\n委員長徐佳青\n\n27\n00:09:39,087 --> 00:09:39,487\n徐佳青報告業務概況：沈伯洋\n\n28\n00:09:59,438 --> 00:10:20,983\n我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求就是說他不能跟對岸有進行任何官方直接的公開接觸或私下也都不行所以確實在2014年的那個過程當中馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國官方接觸後來這些僑務委員都被開除\n\n29\n00:10:23,323 --> 00:10:23,543\n謝謝委員長：謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t4333\t那謝謝主席那有請這個徐佳青委員長謝謝請徐委員長沈委員你好好委員長你好齁這個我還在民間的時候呢常常參與國外的活動齁所以很常遇到僑委會啦齁那當然齁我覺得對國人來講齁畢竟我們很多的事務都是由外交部來負責所以很多人都會認為說為什麼我們還需要僑委會齁\n27313\t46544\t所以當然我覺得今天藉由這一些問題可能讓僑委會也是跟國人說明到底現在僑委會的工作是什麼那第一個我認為稍微比較重要的就是中國因為畢竟中國他們也有類似的僑務工作那在2018年中國就把這個僑務工作弄到這個統戰部了也就是說這個變成是他們現在統戰的一環\n49486\t66421\t統戰的一環原本這是中國的事務跟我們沒有什麼關係但中國對於海外的台灣人也納入他的統戰範圍所以現在必須講說除了我們今天國內各式各樣的在地協力者跟中國應和成為這個統戰的對象之外其實海外完全是這個第二戰場\n67723\t85919\t所以現在因為這幾次我們就發現譬如說在我們的政治人物訪美什麼等等的時候會發現當然中國可能以大使館那一邊他可能會去動員一些他們的人但他們的僑務工作也會可能會統戰我們的人民到那邊去做一些抗議的活動\n86579\t100738\t所以會變成說在那邊有點中國人台灣人不分的這個問題出現就有點是被統戰了所以想知道僑委會因為畢竟這件事情可能跟僑委的核心業務比較有關係所以不知道僑委會現在對於這件事情的應對是什麼\n103100\t126732\t目前因為隨著這20年來中國的這個海外移民越來越多那中國的長臂管轄確實也把這個範圍越深越大那尤其近年來我們在疫情前後呢都發現這個制度性跟組織性的狀況在發生那我們也都很密切的在收集各種的情資瞭解說這個有沒有滲入到我們的這個相關橋團裡面來\n130033\t138319\t到目前為止我們都沒有具體的看到中國的這些僑辦他們把手直接就伸到這個臺灣的相關僑團裡面倒是對於比較是中國的移民的控制監控上是越區的這個嚴格的狀態\n153590\t153710\t沈伯洋\n173636\t175877\t臺灣的臺獨分子才是敵人,他認為在海外的臺獨分子也是他們的敵人,所以就會造成這樣的悲劇。\n193664\t219666\t對,沈委員講的提示的確實是一個很大的我們該注意的事項所以去年我上任之後也責成我們同仁說要快速的掌握在各個不同僑團當中如果有一些假訊息或者有一些中國不當的滲透的資訊要快速的在兩個小時內回報的一些SOP作業就是不希望說台灣或者是中華民國的僑民在海外呢\n220346\t231568\t被中國方面統戰而造成一些錯誤的這個行為那去年當然發生了一件很不幸的案件我們也覺得這件事情當然這個就是當事人是參加的這個叫做統促黨的這個叫做相關的周邊社團活動那因此我們也提高警覺說類似這樣的狀況提醒我們所有的僑團如果有類似不同的這樣子訊息的時候請他們可以\n249052\t275341\t提供給我們僑務秘書讓我們僑務秘書可以來進行瞭解跟通報那這樣我們也可以提早提供資訊讓這種悲劇不要再發生那很高興有這樣的預警機制因為對中國來講他做這些事情畢竟都還是漸進式的所以譬如說他我們看到他們有假消息的散播或者一些謠言的散播如果能夠在即時剛剛講到是兩小時嘛對不對所以如果有這樣的一個通報的話我們就會知道說他的觸角可能已經伸到哪裡\n276761\t304231\t但是當然他還會有一些更軟性的措施比如說跟經濟相關的比如說我把它放在這一邊就是他們想要在這個用一帶一路啊什麼等等的這些方式呢他是一些比較軟性的然後藉由經濟的方式先拉攏一些我們海外的僑胞然後再慢慢的再做剛剛講的一些滲透工作所以呢除了剛剛講的這些虛假訊息謠言之外呢這些經濟的統戰可能也會是一個預警的一個機制就是可能也是我們要掌握的\n304531\t331877\t那不知道僑委會對於經濟這方面中國的一個措施的一個反制或者說一個監測的方向是什麼中國方面他們運用這個和平統一促進會這樣的模式確實在各個國家各個地區的僑團來不斷的去設立那也不乏有傳統的僑民中國的僑民跟部分的台灣僑民去參加確實是有的剛剛講的那個例子就是他是在拉斯維加斯的\n332557\t339139\t然後這個長期都有很多錯誤的資訊那針對用經濟手段來執行的這個在疫情前是可以說達到高峰那疫情當中就逐漸的這個緩步下來近年來雖然還是持續有這些用一帶一路的這種倡議希望能夠拉攏這些海外的勢力跟橋團但是我們有觀察到由於這個經濟的消長\n359185\t363768\t跟這個中美美中的這個貿易戰經濟戰科技戰等等的趨勢變化看起來這一方面的這種運作呢有轉趨低調的形態但是我們都高度的提醒我們的僑民台商就是說如果在進行這方面有可能有人去跟你做想要合作的這種訴求的時候希望他們可以提供我們相關的訊息\n386403\t393688\t到目前為止確實我們的大部分僑團也都非常團結他們一旦有這方面的訊息都會立即跟我們通報\n395795\t418307\t感謝委員的解釋,畢竟在禮拜一的時候,我在跟國安局長討論的時候,也發現這樣的一個現象,就是他們在統戰的資源,跟他們放假消息這方面的資源,其實有一點此消彼長的關係。在疫情的時候,因為經濟疲弱,對他們來講,要進行這種海外的統戰,變成說用經濟的這種錢砸下去,變得越來越不容易。\n419948\t440838\t兩個方向第一個就是放假消息這個對他來講非常容易沒有什麼成本另外一個就是呢去擴張他的執法的權利剛剛前面有提到他們擴張這個司法權所以這邊也是剛好下一個我想問的問題就是因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高就是這種海外警察的一個設置那目前來講這件事情當然他比較偏向是中國對全世界的這種管轄權的擴張\n442799\t451753\t那目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情是有影響到我們的台灣的僑報的一些不管是安全啊或者說甚至他的言論自由啊等等之類的案例呢\n453169\t477065\t我們唯一有一個案例就是我在去年已經報告過就是巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過這個FB然後也連續被攻擊了4次但是從第一次發生以後我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案\n478025\t483868\t因此法國警察也積極去追查確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾所以後來這個有被鎖定以後他們就後續沒有再接受到這樣的干擾但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺在全球各地這樣的狀況可能會資訊或者是網站或者是相關的這種干擾情況可能會無所不在\n506238\t506318\t委員長沈伯洋\n521232\t542373\t各地如果有一些對岸中國團體的新設立他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會或者是什麼商會等等之類的這種名義之下但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者是相關的官方單位執行某種監控他們當地中國僑民是他們主要的目標然後連帶的透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作\n546209\t561620\t因為我覺得從2023年的下半年開始他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少但是不管是這種假消息謠言以及這種司法權的擴張是大概最近做的比較多所以對於未來的工作來講針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響有可能\n562000\t562120\t委員長徐佳青\n579087\t579487\t徐佳青報告業務概況：沈伯洋\n599438\t620983\t我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求就是說他不能跟對岸有進行任何官方直接的公開接觸或私下也都不行所以確實在2014年的那個過程當中馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國官方接觸後來這些僑務委員都被開除\n623323\t623543\t謝謝委員長：謝謝主席\n","txt":"那謝謝主席那有請這個徐佳青委員長謝謝請徐委員長沈委員你好好委員長你好齁這個我還在民間的時候呢常常參與國外的活動齁所以很常遇到僑委會啦齁那當然齁我覺得對國人來講齁畢竟我們很多的事務都是由外交部來負責所以很多人都會認為說為什麼我們還需要僑委會齁\n所以當然我覺得今天藉由這一些問題可能讓僑委會也是跟國人說明到底現在僑委會的工作是什麼那第一個我認為稍微比較重要的就是中國因為畢竟中國他們也有類似的僑務工作那在2018年中國就把這個僑務工作弄到這個統戰部了也就是說這個變成是他們現在統戰的一環\n統戰的一環原本這是中國的事務跟我們沒有什麼關係但中國對於海外的台灣人也納入他的統戰範圍所以現在必須講說除了我們今天國內各式各樣的在地協力者跟中國應和成為這個統戰的對象之外其實海外完全是這個第二戰場\n所以現在因為這幾次我們就發現譬如說在我們的政治人物訪美什麼等等的時候會發現當然中國可能以大使館那一邊他可能會去動員一些他們的人但他們的僑務工作也會可能會統戰我們的人民到那邊去做一些抗議的活動\n所以會變成說在那邊有點中國人台灣人不分的這個問題出現就有點是被統戰了所以想知道僑委會因為畢竟這件事情可能跟僑委的核心業務比較有關係所以不知道僑委會現在對於這件事情的應對是什麼\n目前因為隨著這20年來中國的這個海外移民越來越多那中國的長臂管轄確實也把這個範圍越深越大那尤其近年來我們在疫情前後呢都發現這個制度性跟組織性的狀況在發生那我們也都很密切的在收集各種的情資瞭解說這個有沒有滲入到我們的這個相關橋團裡面來\n到目前為止我們都沒有具體的看到中國的這些僑辦他們把手直接就伸到這個臺灣的相關僑團裡面倒是對於比較是中國的移民的控制監控上是越區的這個嚴格的狀態\n沈伯洋\n臺灣的臺獨分子才是敵人,他認為在海外的臺獨分子也是他們的敵人,所以就會造成這樣的悲劇。\n對,沈委員講的提示的確實是一個很大的我們該注意的事項所以去年我上任之後也責成我們同仁說要快速的掌握在各個不同僑團當中如果有一些假訊息或者有一些中國不當的滲透的資訊要快速的在兩個小時內回報的一些SOP作業就是不希望說台灣或者是中華民國的僑民在海外呢\n被中國方面統戰而造成一些錯誤的這個行為那去年當然發生了一件很不幸的案件我們也覺得這件事情當然這個就是當事人是參加的這個叫做統促黨的這個叫做相關的周邊社團活動那因此我們也提高警覺說類似這樣的狀況提醒我們所有的僑團如果有類似不同的這樣子訊息的時候請他們可以\n提供給我們僑務秘書讓我們僑務秘書可以來進行瞭解跟通報那這樣我們也可以提早提供資訊讓這種悲劇不要再發生那很高興有這樣的預警機制因為對中國來講他做這些事情畢竟都還是漸進式的所以譬如說他我們看到他們有假消息的散播或者一些謠言的散播如果能夠在即時剛剛講到是兩小時嘛對不對所以如果有這樣的一個通報的話我們就會知道說他的觸角可能已經伸到哪裡\n但是當然他還會有一些更軟性的措施比如說跟經濟相關的比如說我把它放在這一邊就是他們想要在這個用一帶一路啊什麼等等的這些方式呢他是一些比較軟性的然後藉由經濟的方式先拉攏一些我們海外的僑胞然後再慢慢的再做剛剛講的一些滲透工作所以呢除了剛剛講的這些虛假訊息謠言之外呢這些經濟的統戰可能也會是一個預警的一個機制就是可能也是我們要掌握的\n那不知道僑委會對於經濟這方面中國的一個措施的一個反制或者說一個監測的方向是什麼中國方面他們運用這個和平統一促進會這樣的模式確實在各個國家各個地區的僑團來不斷的去設立那也不乏有傳統的僑民中國的僑民跟部分的台灣僑民去參加確實是有的剛剛講的那個例子就是他是在拉斯維加斯的\n然後這個長期都有很多錯誤的資訊那針對用經濟手段來執行的這個在疫情前是可以說達到高峰那疫情當中就逐漸的這個緩步下來近年來雖然還是持續有這些用一帶一路的這種倡議希望能夠拉攏這些海外的勢力跟橋團但是我們有觀察到由於這個經濟的消長\n跟這個中美美中的這個貿易戰經濟戰科技戰等等的趨勢變化看起來這一方面的這種運作呢有轉趨低調的形態但是我們都高度的提醒我們的僑民台商就是說如果在進行這方面有可能有人去跟你做想要合作的這種訴求的時候希望他們可以提供我們相關的訊息\n到目前為止確實我們的大部分僑團也都非常團結他們一旦有這方面的訊息都會立即跟我們通報\n感謝委員的解釋,畢竟在禮拜一的時候,我在跟國安局長討論的時候,也發現這樣的一個現象,就是他們在統戰的資源,跟他們放假消息這方面的資源,其實有一點此消彼長的關係。在疫情的時候,因為經濟疲弱,對他們來講,要進行這種海外的統戰,變成說用經濟的這種錢砸下去,變得越來越不容易。\n兩個方向第一個就是放假消息這個對他來講非常容易沒有什麼成本另外一個就是呢去擴張他的執法的權利剛剛前面有提到他們擴張這個司法權所以這邊也是剛好下一個我想問的問題就是因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高就是這種海外警察的一個設置那目前來講這件事情當然他比較偏向是中國對全世界的這種管轄權的擴張\n那目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情是有影響到我們的台灣的僑報的一些不管是安全啊或者說甚至他的言論自由啊等等之類的案例呢\n我們唯一有一個案例就是我在去年已經報告過就是巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過這個FB然後也連續被攻擊了4次但是從第一次發生以後我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案\n因此法國警察也積極去追查確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾所以後來這個有被鎖定以後他們就後續沒有再接受到這樣的干擾但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺在全球各地這樣的狀況可能會資訊或者是網站或者是相關的這種干擾情況可能會無所不在\n委員長沈伯洋\n各地如果有一些對岸中國團體的新設立他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會或者是什麼商會等等之類的這種名義之下但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者是相關的官方單位執行某種監控他們當地中國僑民是他們主要的目標然後連帶的透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作\n因為我覺得從2023年的下半年開始他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少但是不管是這種假消息謠言以及這種司法權的擴張是大概最近做的比較多所以對於未來的工作來講針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響有可能\n委員長徐佳青\n徐佳青報告業務概況：沈伯洋\n我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求就是說他不能跟對岸有進行任何官方直接的公開接觸或私下也都不行所以確實在2014年的那個過程當中馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國官方接觸後來這些僑務委員都被開除\n謝謝委員長：謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:04.333\n那謝謝主席那有請這個徐佳青委員長謝謝請徐委員長沈委員你好好委員長你好齁這個我還在民間的時候呢常常參與國外的活動齁所以很常遇到僑委會啦齁那當然齁我覺得對國人來講齁畢竟我們很多的事務都是由外交部來負責所以很多人都會認為說為什麼我們還需要僑委會齁\n\n00:27.313 --> 00:46.544\n所以當然我覺得今天藉由這一些問題可能讓僑委會也是跟國人說明到底現在僑委會的工作是什麼那第一個我認為稍微比較重要的就是中國因為畢竟中國他們也有類似的僑務工作那在2018年中國就把這個僑務工作弄到這個統戰部了也就是說這個變成是他們現在統戰的一環\n\n00:49.486 --> 01:06.421\n統戰的一環原本這是中國的事務跟我們沒有什麼關係但中國對於海外的台灣人也納入他的統戰範圍所以現在必須講說除了我們今天國內各式各樣的在地協力者跟中國應和成為這個統戰的對象之外其實海外完全是這個第二戰場\n\n01:07.723 --> 01:25.919\n所以現在因為這幾次我們就發現譬如說在我們的政治人物訪美什麼等等的時候會發現當然中國可能以大使館那一邊他可能會去動員一些他們的人但他們的僑務工作也會可能會統戰我們的人民到那邊去做一些抗議的活動\n\n01:26.579 --> 01:40.738\n所以會變成說在那邊有點中國人台灣人不分的這個問題出現就有點是被統戰了所以想知道僑委會因為畢竟這件事情可能跟僑委的核心業務比較有關係所以不知道僑委會現在對於這件事情的應對是什麼\n\n01:43.100 --> 02:06.732\n目前因為隨著這20年來中國的這個海外移民越來越多那中國的長臂管轄確實也把這個範圍越深越大那尤其近年來我們在疫情前後呢都發現這個制度性跟組織性的狀況在發生那我們也都很密切的在收集各種的情資瞭解說這個有沒有滲入到我們的這個相關橋團裡面來\n\n02:10.033 --> 02:18.319\n到目前為止我們都沒有具體的看到中國的這些僑辦他們把手直接就伸到這個臺灣的相關僑團裡面倒是對於比較是中國的移民的控制監控上是越區的這個嚴格的狀態\n\n02:33.590 --> 02:33.710\n沈伯洋\n\n02:53.636 --> 02:55.877\n臺灣的臺獨分子才是敵人,他認為在海外的臺獨分子也是他們的敵人,所以就會造成這樣的悲劇。\n\n03:13.664 --> 03:39.666\n對,沈委員講的提示的確實是一個很大的我們該注意的事項所以去年我上任之後也責成我們同仁說要快速的掌握在各個不同僑團當中如果有一些假訊息或者有一些中國不當的滲透的資訊要快速的在兩個小時內回報的一些SOP作業就是不希望說台灣或者是中華民國的僑民在海外呢\n\n03:40.346 --> 03:51.568\n被中國方面統戰而造成一些錯誤的這個行為那去年當然發生了一件很不幸的案件我們也覺得這件事情當然這個就是當事人是參加的這個叫做統促黨的這個叫做相關的周邊社團活動那因此我們也提高警覺說類似這樣的狀況提醒我們所有的僑團如果有類似不同的這樣子訊息的時候請他們可以\n\n04:09.052 --> 04:35.341\n提供給我們僑務秘書讓我們僑務秘書可以來進行瞭解跟通報那這樣我們也可以提早提供資訊讓這種悲劇不要再發生那很高興有這樣的預警機制因為對中國來講他做這些事情畢竟都還是漸進式的所以譬如說他我們看到他們有假消息的散播或者一些謠言的散播如果能夠在即時剛剛講到是兩小時嘛對不對所以如果有這樣的一個通報的話我們就會知道說他的觸角可能已經伸到哪裡\n\n04:36.761 --> 05:04.231\n但是當然他還會有一些更軟性的措施比如說跟經濟相關的比如說我把它放在這一邊就是他們想要在這個用一帶一路啊什麼等等的這些方式呢他是一些比較軟性的然後藉由經濟的方式先拉攏一些我們海外的僑胞然後再慢慢的再做剛剛講的一些滲透工作所以呢除了剛剛講的這些虛假訊息謠言之外呢這些經濟的統戰可能也會是一個預警的一個機制就是可能也是我們要掌握的\n\n05:04.531 --> 05:31.877\n那不知道僑委會對於經濟這方面中國的一個措施的一個反制或者說一個監測的方向是什麼中國方面他們運用這個和平統一促進會這樣的模式確實在各個國家各個地區的僑團來不斷的去設立那也不乏有傳統的僑民中國的僑民跟部分的台灣僑民去參加確實是有的剛剛講的那個例子就是他是在拉斯維加斯的\n\n05:32.557 --> 05:39.139\n然後這個長期都有很多錯誤的資訊那針對用經濟手段來執行的這個在疫情前是可以說達到高峰那疫情當中就逐漸的這個緩步下來近年來雖然還是持續有這些用一帶一路的這種倡議希望能夠拉攏這些海外的勢力跟橋團但是我們有觀察到由於這個經濟的消長\n\n05:59.185 --> 06:03.768\n跟這個中美美中的這個貿易戰經濟戰科技戰等等的趨勢變化看起來這一方面的這種運作呢有轉趨低調的形態但是我們都高度的提醒我們的僑民台商就是說如果在進行這方面有可能有人去跟你做想要合作的這種訴求的時候希望他們可以提供我們相關的訊息\n\n06:26.403 --> 06:33.688\n到目前為止確實我們的大部分僑團也都非常團結他們一旦有這方面的訊息都會立即跟我們通報\n\n06:35.795 --> 06:58.307\n感謝委員的解釋,畢竟在禮拜一的時候,我在跟國安局長討論的時候,也發現這樣的一個現象,就是他們在統戰的資源,跟他們放假消息這方面的資源,其實有一點此消彼長的關係。在疫情的時候,因為經濟疲弱,對他們來講,要進行這種海外的統戰,變成說用經濟的這種錢砸下去,變得越來越不容易。\n\n06:59.948 --> 07:20.838\n兩個方向第一個就是放假消息這個對他來講非常容易沒有什麼成本另外一個就是呢去擴張他的執法的權利剛剛前面有提到他們擴張這個司法權所以這邊也是剛好下一個我想問的問題就是因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高就是這種海外警察的一個設置那目前來講這件事情當然他比較偏向是中國對全世界的這種管轄權的擴張\n\n07:22.799 --> 07:31.753\n那目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情是有影響到我們的台灣的僑報的一些不管是安全啊或者說甚至他的言論自由啊等等之類的案例呢\n\n07:33.169 --> 07:57.065\n我們唯一有一個案例就是我在去年已經報告過就是巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過這個FB然後也連續被攻擊了4次但是從第一次發生以後我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案\n\n07:58.025 --> 08:03.868\n因此法國警察也積極去追查確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾所以後來這個有被鎖定以後他們就後續沒有再接受到這樣的干擾但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺在全球各地這樣的狀況可能會資訊或者是網站或者是相關的這種干擾情況可能會無所不在\n\n08:26.238 --> 08:26.318\n委員長沈伯洋\n\n08:41.232 --> 09:02.373\n各地如果有一些對岸中國團體的新設立他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會或者是什麼商會等等之類的這種名義之下但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者是相關的官方單位執行某種監控他們當地中國僑民是他們主要的目標然後連帶的透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作\n\n09:06.209 --> 09:21.620\n因為我覺得從2023年的下半年開始他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少但是不管是這種假消息謠言以及這種司法權的擴張是大概最近做的比較多所以對於未來的工作來講針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響有可能\n\n09:22.000 --> 09:22.120\n委員長徐佳青\n\n09:39.087 --> 09:39.487\n徐佳青報告業務概況：沈伯洋\n\n09:59.438 --> 10:20.983\n我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求就是說他不能跟對岸有進行任何官方直接的公開接觸或私下也都不行所以確實在2014年的那個過程當中馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國官方接觸後來這些僑務委員都被開除\n\n10:23.323 --> 10:23.543\n謝謝委員長：謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":4.333,"text":"那謝謝主席那有請這個徐佳青委員長謝謝請徐委員長沈委員你好好委員長你好齁這個我還在民間的時候呢常常參與國外的活動齁所以很常遇到僑委會啦齁那當然齁我覺得對國人來講齁畢竟我們很多的事務都是由外交部來負責所以很多人都會認為說為什麼我們還需要僑委會齁"},{"start":27.313,"end":46.544,"text":"所以當然我覺得今天藉由這一些問題可能讓僑委會也是跟國人說明到底現在僑委會的工作是什麼那第一個我認為稍微比較重要的就是中國因為畢竟中國他們也有類似的僑務工作那在2018年中國就把這個僑務工作弄到這個統戰部了也就是說這個變成是他們現在統戰的一環"},{"start":49.486,"end":66.421,"text":"統戰的一環原本這是中國的事務跟我們沒有什麼關係但中國對於海外的台灣人也納入他的統戰範圍所以現在必須講說除了我們今天國內各式各樣的在地協力者跟中國應和成為這個統戰的對象之外其實海外完全是這個第二戰場"},{"start":67.723,"end":85.919,"text":"所以現在因為這幾次我們就發現譬如說在我們的政治人物訪美什麼等等的時候會發現當然中國可能以大使館那一邊他可能會去動員一些他們的人但他們的僑務工作也會可能會統戰我們的人民到那邊去做一些抗議的活動"},{"start":86.579,"end":100.738,"text":"所以會變成說在那邊有點中國人台灣人不分的這個問題出現就有點是被統戰了所以想知道僑委會因為畢竟這件事情可能跟僑委的核心業務比較有關係所以不知道僑委會現在對於這件事情的應對是什麼"},{"start":103.1,"end":126.732,"text":"目前因為隨著這20年來中國的這個海外移民越來越多那中國的長臂管轄確實也把這個範圍越深越大那尤其近年來我們在疫情前後呢都發現這個制度性跟組織性的狀況在發生那我們也都很密切的在收集各種的情資瞭解說這個有沒有滲入到我們的這個相關橋團裡面來"},{"start":130.033,"end":138.319,"text":"到目前為止我們都沒有具體的看到中國的這些僑辦他們把手直接就伸到這個臺灣的相關僑團裡面倒是對於比較是中國的移民的控制監控上是越區的這個嚴格的狀態"},{"start":153.59,"end":153.71,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":173.636,"end":175.877,"text":"臺灣的臺獨分子才是敵人,他認為在海外的臺獨分子也是他們的敵人,所以就會造成這樣的悲劇。"},{"start":193.664,"end":219.666,"text":"對,沈委員講的提示的確實是一個很大的我們該注意的事項所以去年我上任之後也責成我們同仁說要快速的掌握在各個不同僑團當中如果有一些假訊息或者有一些中國不當的滲透的資訊要快速的在兩個小時內回報的一些SOP作業就是不希望說台灣或者是中華民國的僑民在海外呢"},{"start":220.346,"end":231.568,"text":"被中國方面統戰而造成一些錯誤的這個行為那去年當然發生了一件很不幸的案件我們也覺得這件事情當然這個就是當事人是參加的這個叫做統促黨的這個叫做相關的周邊社團活動那因此我們也提高警覺說類似這樣的狀況提醒我們所有的僑團如果有類似不同的這樣子訊息的時候請他們可以"},{"start":249.052,"end":275.341,"text":"提供給我們僑務秘書讓我們僑務秘書可以來進行瞭解跟通報那這樣我們也可以提早提供資訊讓這種悲劇不要再發生那很高興有這樣的預警機制因為對中國來講他做這些事情畢竟都還是漸進式的所以譬如說他我們看到他們有假消息的散播或者一些謠言的散播如果能夠在即時剛剛講到是兩小時嘛對不對所以如果有這樣的一個通報的話我們就會知道說他的觸角可能已經伸到哪裡"},{"start":276.761,"end":304.231,"text":"但是當然他還會有一些更軟性的措施比如說跟經濟相關的比如說我把它放在這一邊就是他們想要在這個用一帶一路啊什麼等等的這些方式呢他是一些比較軟性的然後藉由經濟的方式先拉攏一些我們海外的僑胞然後再慢慢的再做剛剛講的一些滲透工作所以呢除了剛剛講的這些虛假訊息謠言之外呢這些經濟的統戰可能也會是一個預警的一個機制就是可能也是我們要掌握的"},{"start":304.531,"end":331.877,"text":"那不知道僑委會對於經濟這方面中國的一個措施的一個反制或者說一個監測的方向是什麼中國方面他們運用這個和平統一促進會這樣的模式確實在各個國家各個地區的僑團來不斷的去設立那也不乏有傳統的僑民中國的僑民跟部分的台灣僑民去參加確實是有的剛剛講的那個例子就是他是在拉斯維加斯的"},{"start":332.557,"end":339.139,"text":"然後這個長期都有很多錯誤的資訊那針對用經濟手段來執行的這個在疫情前是可以說達到高峰那疫情當中就逐漸的這個緩步下來近年來雖然還是持續有這些用一帶一路的這種倡議希望能夠拉攏這些海外的勢力跟橋團但是我們有觀察到由於這個經濟的消長"},{"start":359.185,"end":363.768,"text":"跟這個中美美中的這個貿易戰經濟戰科技戰等等的趨勢變化看起來這一方面的這種運作呢有轉趨低調的形態但是我們都高度的提醒我們的僑民台商就是說如果在進行這方面有可能有人去跟你做想要合作的這種訴求的時候希望他們可以提供我們相關的訊息"},{"start":386.403,"end":393.688,"text":"到目前為止確實我們的大部分僑團也都非常團結他們一旦有這方面的訊息都會立即跟我們通報"},{"start":395.795,"end":418.307,"text":"感謝委員的解釋,畢竟在禮拜一的時候,我在跟國安局長討論的時候,也發現這樣的一個現象,就是他們在統戰的資源,跟他們放假消息這方面的資源,其實有一點此消彼長的關係。在疫情的時候,因為經濟疲弱,對他們來講,要進行這種海外的統戰,變成說用經濟的這種錢砸下去,變得越來越不容易。"},{"start":419.948,"end":440.838,"text":"兩個方向第一個就是放假消息這個對他來講非常容易沒有什麼成本另外一個就是呢去擴張他的執法的權利剛剛前面有提到他們擴張這個司法權所以這邊也是剛好下一個我想問的問題就是因為這個對他們來講成本比較沒有那麼高就是這種海外警察的一個設置那目前來講這件事情當然他比較偏向是中國對全世界的這種管轄權的擴張"},{"start":442.799,"end":451.753,"text":"那目前有沒有掌握到什麼事情是有影響到我們的台灣的僑報的一些不管是安全啊或者說甚至他的言論自由啊等等之類的案例呢"},{"start":453.169,"end":477.065,"text":"我們唯一有一個案例就是我在去年已經報告過就是巴黎所設置的華語文學習中心由於他們的招生及營運績效非常好所以他們在開始不久以後網站就被攻擊過這個FB然後也連續被攻擊了4次但是從第一次發生以後我們就跟該中心說一定要去警察局備案"},{"start":478.025,"end":483.868,"text":"因此法國警察也積極去追查確實有掌握是中國方面的駭客干擾所以後來這個有被鎖定以後他們就後續沒有再接受到這樣的干擾但是這件事情是提醒我們要非常警覺在全球各地這樣的狀況可能會資訊或者是網站或者是相關的這種干擾情況可能會無所不在"},{"start":506.238,"end":506.318,"text":"委員長沈伯洋"},{"start":521.232,"end":542.373,"text":"各地如果有一些對岸中國團體的新設立他們會包裝在什麼同鄉會或者是什麼商會等等之類的這種名義之下但事實上是在幫他們公安局或者是相關的官方單位執行某種監控他們當地中國僑民是他們主要的目標然後連帶的透過他們來進行統戰這樣的工作"},{"start":546.209,"end":561.62,"text":"因為我覺得從2023年的下半年開始他們經濟的作為確實稍微減少但是不管是這種假消息謠言以及這種司法權的擴張是大概最近做的比較多所以對於未來的工作來講針對他們海外警察對於我們的影響有可能"},{"start":562,"end":562.12,"text":"委員長徐佳青"},{"start":579.087,"end":579.487,"text":"徐佳青報告業務概況：沈伯洋"},{"start":599.438,"end":620.983,"text":"我們對於僑務榮譽職都有一個基礎的要求就是說他不能跟對岸有進行任何官方直接的公開接觸或私下也都不行所以確實在2014年的那個過程當中馬政府時期曾經有一團僑務委員去了中國官方接觸後來這些僑務委員都被開除"},{"start":623.323,"end":623.543,"text":"謝謝委員長：謝謝主席"}]}}}}