{"id":149768,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903936e4028cae9a89696e924a6094607edf8ba9b0039caa7a68188cd1f86e2912d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:35:44 - 10:44:44","影片長度":"00:09:00","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":540,"end_time":"2024-03-13T10:44:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T10:35:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時35分）謝謝主席。委員長，有請。"],["主席：有請徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：牛委員，恭喜。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，委員長早安。"],["徐委員長佳青：早安。"],["牛委員煦庭：我請教一下，現在大家都希望職場的環境更健康，尤其是僑務外派其實壓力很大。我們要落實性平三法的精神，委員長，你覺得僑務委員會自評可以打幾分？"],["徐委員長佳青：我不敢自評，但每兩年行政院性評委員會都會幫我們各部會做整體的評估跟評分，我們在112年的成績相較於110年的成績是大幅地進步。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。我們討論一個個案，之前媒體也見諸報導，就是巴西聖保羅的性騷擾案件，這個案件大概是這樣，6月的時候進行了訪談、訪視，就是駐外的外交人員被性騷擾的狀況，所以6月時先會談雙方，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：我本人自己有會談他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：你本人親自會談嘛，我沒有搞錯的話，你那時應該是副委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：已經是委員長了。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。當初第一時間的結論是不是你嚴加告誡加害者？"],["徐委員長佳青：我已經把他判定是性騷擾。"],["牛委員煦庭：他就是性騷擾嘛，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：對，所以我要求性騷擾加害人要調回。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你覺得當事人當初為什麼沒有選擇申訴？"],["徐委員長佳青：他覺得我們已經將他職務分離，而且他已經要在一定的時間內調回，所以他就同意了這樣的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我想公部門就是這樣，大家當然希望可以依法辦事、公正處理，因為公部門就是團體生活，當然也會擔心後面會不會衍生職場上的不友善或是標籤，凡此種種其實都背離了性平三法的精神，我要先提醒委員長。後來事情就這樣爆發，10月開始召開記者會，顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的。"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，委員，因為當事人有其他的訴求，顯然其他的訴求沒有達到，因此他把這一個移轉到這樣的作業。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以他對於當初最後的處置結果其實是不滿意的嘛，其實……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說，我們在該地的派駐因為員額的關係要減為一人，所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了。"],["牛委員煦庭：委員長，我想遇到性平事件，雖然本席是男性，但我覺得還是要把話講清楚，就是目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道，要嚴懲加害人、以儆效尤嘛，我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全，覺得這個環境越來越友善、越來越平等，這個你應該不會反對吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人。"],["牛委員煦庭：促進立法過程，對嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但後來這件事情最後的處置，第一個你講調回的部分，我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應啦，因為如果你發生這件事是按照這樣的邏輯的話，你是不是真正……因為外館的狀況是人數很少嘛，你很難做到真正的職務分離吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：原則上跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：一個主任、一個副主任怎麼分離呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們還有兩位雇員都在現場，我們已經有跟他們說，他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係，但當然還是難免會遇到。在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是，主管負有義務，要先讓友善的環境繼續維持下去，所以我在第一時間就將……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，現在加害人是主管的狀況。"],["徐委員長佳青：加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的權限關係。"],["牛委員煦庭：我問一下，為什麼你不第一時間把加害人調回來就好了呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們想要調回來……"],["牛委員煦庭：你另外再補人嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我同意你另外再補人，那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認，到我們要調回有一定的時間，因為我們在國內必須先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證，這些東西都還要會給外交部，一般的作業我們至少是3個月的期程，所以並不是委員想得那麼簡單，我直接先把他調回來，那裡就變成這個業務沒有人執行了。"],["牛委員煦庭：不過顯然，當然這跟……"],["徐委員長佳青：一定要有交接好，新的人去才能交接。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個我要再追問的是最後的考績，因為你能夠彰顯這個職場環境的公平，一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為嘛，也就是說，要麼就是調離現職，你剛剛講你有一套說法，說有一定的程序要跑，沒關係，那至少另外一個武器叫考績嘛，你這個加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎？難道不應該嚴懲嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：加害人事實上幫被害人承接了非常多的工作，在一整年的工作當中，之所以被害人最後的成績是在丙等……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天沒有要跟你爭執被害人的考績問題……"],["徐委員長佳青：是因為他在該年度的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我只問加害人的考績問題。"],["徐委員長佳青：加害人的考績也沒有很好，他只多他一分而已，那個一分的意義就在於他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是說，僑委會最後的結果是成立還有申誡一支啦，然後考績乙等。"],["徐委員長佳青：這個我們有正式的調查委員會，有3位委員……"],["牛委員煦庭：我是不知道社會大眾怎麼看這件事情，但是我們如果真的要落實性平三法、要嚴懲性騷擾加害人的話，這樣子顯然是輕輕放下吧？難道不應該更嚴格嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：這個不是我決定的，這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果，我只能簽核而已，我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案，顯然獨立調查委員會自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候，認為這個有不當追求的嫌疑，因此判定他是性騷擾成立，但是情節沒有到重大的程度，所以才會顯然地給予一次申誡的警告，這不是我委員長個人可以處理的，因為這是獨立的委員會。"],["牛委員煦庭：委員長，我現在提醒你，現在就是這樣嘛，你這整個制度上，其實從制度的角度來看這件事情，包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講，針對我們的外館你要落實性平三法這些精神、你要杜絕性騷擾這些狀況的時候，你在外館本來就要有專門的處遇措施，因為距離遙遠，沒有辦法……人數又不夠。"],["徐委員長佳青：一線的館長都要處理，沒有錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛，現在你就馬上遇到這樣的事情，在那邊的長官就是加害人本人，然後你在處遇的時候又沒有辦法及時調回，你有你的理由，你又沒有辦法在事後用考績的方式予以重懲，那我們怎麼會相信僑務委員會是一個對女性職場相對友善，或是真的落實性別平等精神的職場呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員如果想知道這個個案，我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，我再三強調，我不去跟你討論被害人現在的狀況。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為遇到這樣的事情，被害人通常都很敏感，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：我一定是性騷擾零容忍，這個是本會一直以來的態度。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果你的說法叫做性騷擾零容忍，但最後的處遇是這樣的時候，我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛，對不對？最後……不好意思，再給我一點時間。"],["徐委員長佳青：因為我們目前立法是允許加害人可以反悔他原來的說法，所以雖然在第一時間，被害人接受我們的處置，而且他覺得處置的非常公正嚴明，但事後他有其他的想法、覺得不能平復，我們也在10月份接受了他的申訴。"],["牛委員煦庭：委員長，你認為他為什麼會覺得不能平復？"],["徐委員長佳青：我剛剛已經講了，因為他有另外的想法，他要的東西沒有達到他的目標。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創；第二個，這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤嘛，甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況啦，所以我才講處理這種事情最明快、最有效，而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人嘛，對不對？至少大家心理比較平衡吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我跟你是一樣的心情，但是我們根據公務人員服務法，首長不可以自己隨意妄加罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲，我們還是必須回歸公務人員服務法及性別工作平等法。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後我提醒一下，你這個僑委會的性別平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展，你的專案小組開會的會議紀錄，好像資料也有很多……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們請人事室馬上提供給委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：更重要的是……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們每一年定期開兩次，現在召集人是我們阮副委員長。"],["牛委員煦庭：監察院去年3月就已經提醒，你針對外館要有一套處置措施、要一套新的SOP，到現在為止還沒有通過，中間還發生了這樣的事。"],["徐委員長佳青：這個是針對外交部的。"],["牛委員煦庭：也是要處理啊，結果出來了沒？是不是也要跟大家說明一下？因為一方面今天我……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天的訴求，第一個叫重懲加害人；第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來，不要再有下一個悲劇發生了，我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：臺灣的外交人才已經很少了，不容易啊！"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：不要因為這種愚蠢的事情去折損，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：當然！非常同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：性平三法的精神有沒有被落實、怎麼落實？給自己打幾分？"],["徐委員長佳青：我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望委員長回去好好思考一下啦。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝您。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝牛委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：謝謝。就剛剛的部分，我們還是請委員長可以提供相關的資料，其實首長還是有考績的決定權，包括打丙等。如果這個會造成比較大的傷害，大家再來重視這個案子，好不好？到時候再請委員長也提供資料給我們委員會。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":32,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-5","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","牛煦庭","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","陳永康","洪申翰","林憶君","王定宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"113130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\"score\": 0.008}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,529 --> 00:00:24,415\n委員長有請有請黃國錫委員長牛委員恭喜謝謝喔委員長早安喔早安這我請教一下就是我們現在大家都希望說我們這個職場的環境更健康啦尤其是僑務外派其實是一個壓力很大的一個狀況我們要落實性平三法的精神喔委員長你覺得僑務委員會置評可以打幾分\n\n2\n00:00:26,858 --> 00:00:45,639\n我不敢自評,但是我們每兩年行政院的性評委員會都會幫我們各部會做整體的評估跟評分那我們在112年的成績相較於110年的成績是大幅的進步\n\n3\n00:00:48,602 --> 00:00:57,066\n謝謝齁這個我們討論一個個案啦就是之前媒體也見諸報導嘛就是巴西聖保羅的這個這個性騷擾的一個案件嘛這案件大概是這樣啦\n\n4\n00:00:58,200 --> 00:00:59,300\n當初第一時間的結論是不是說你嚴加告誡加害者\n\n5\n00:01:21,787 --> 00:01:25,535\n我已經把他判定是性騷擾所以我要求性騷擾加害人調回那你覺得為什麼當事人當初沒有選擇申訴\n\n6\n00:01:32,125 --> 00:01:54,834\n他覺得我們已經將他職務分離而且他已經要在一定的時間內調回所以他就同意了這樣子的一個我想當初公部門就是這樣大家當然希望說可以就法辦事公正處理但是公部門就是團體生活當然也會擔心這會不會衍生成也許職場上的不友善或者是標籤這些反此種種其實都是背離了性平三法的精神我要先提醒委員長\n\n7\n00:01:55,794 --> 00:02:01,501\n那後來事情就這樣爆發嗎?10月開始召開記者會顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的?不是委員因為當事人有其他的訴求那個顯然其他的訴求他沒有達到因此他把這個移轉到這樣的一個作業所以他對於當初的處置最後的結果其實是不滿意的嗎?其實\n\n8\n00:02:16,298 --> 00:02:43,892\n我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說我們在該地的派駐因為餘額的關係要減為一人所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了委員長這個我想遇到這個性平事件雖然本期是男性但我覺得還是要把話講清楚就目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道要嚴懲加害人以禁校遊我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全覺得說這個環境是越來越友善的越來越平等這個你應該不會反對吧\n\n9\n00:02:44,492 --> 00:03:03,547\n我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人但後來這件事情最後的處置第一個你講調回的部分我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應因為如果你發現這件事按照這樣的邏輯的話你是不是真正因為外管的狀況是很人數是很少的嘛你很難做到真正的職務分離吧\n\n10\n00:03:04,948 --> 00:03:11,071\n原則上跟委員報告我們還有兩位僱員都在現場我們已經有跟他們說他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係但是當然你還是難免會遇到那在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是主管負有義務要先讓這個友善的環境繼續維持下去所以我在這個第一時間\n\n11\n00:03:33,139 --> 00:03:38,065\n加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的這個權限關係我問一下為什麼你不第一時間把家人調回來就好了呢?你另外再補人嘛我同意你另外補人那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢?我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認\n\n12\n00:03:48,716 --> 00:04:14,931\n那到我們要調回是有一定的時間因為我們必須要國內先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證這些東西都還要匯給外交部這個一般的作業我們至少是三個月的期程所以並不是委員想的那麼簡單說我直接先把他調回來那你就變成這個業務沒有人執行了已經要有交接好新的人去才能交接第二個我要再追問的是後來最後的考機嘛因為你能夠\n\n13\n00:04:17,814 --> 00:04:31,487\n張顯這個職場環境的公平一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為也就是說要嘛就是調離限職你剛剛講好你有一套說法說有一定的程序要跑好沒關係那至少另外一個武器叫烤雞你這加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎難道不應該嚴懲嗎\n\n14\n00:04:33,689 --> 00:04:53,675\n加害人事實上是幫被害人承接了非常多的工作在一整年的工作當中之所以被害人最後的成績是在平等我今天沒有要跟你爭執說被害人的考記問題我只問加害人的考記問題加害人的考記也沒有很好\n\n15\n00:04:54,175 --> 00:05:00,079\n他只多他一分而已,那個一分的意義就在於說他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。這個是我們有正式的這個調查委員會,單位委外委員。\n\n16\n00:05:16,307 --> 00:05:19,129\n這個調查委員會這個不是我決定的這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果我只能我只能簽和而已我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案所以顯然的獨立調查委員會他們自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候他們是認為這個是有不當追求的\n\n17\n00:05:36,241 --> 00:05:36,421\n委員長徐佳青報告\n\n18\n00:05:53,571 --> 00:06:06,980\n從制度的角度來看這件事情包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講針對我們的外管你要落實性平三法的這些精神你要杜絕性騷擾這種狀況的時候來講你在外管本來就要有專門的處遇措施嘛因為你距離遙遠人數又不夠\n\n19\n00:06:10,202 --> 00:06:34,878\n那現在你就馬上遇到這樣的事情是所以在那邊的長官就是加害人本人然後你在處理的時候你又沒有辦法及時調回你有你的理由你又沒有辦法在事後用考機的方式予以重懲那我們怎麼會相信就是說僑務委員會是一個對女性職場相對友善或者是對真的有落實性別平等精神的官場的職場呢委員如果想知道這個案個案我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告\n\n20\n00:06:35,478 --> 00:06:53,072\n我跟你講,我現在不去討論,我再三強調,我不去跟你討論說悲哀你現在的狀況,因為遇到這樣的事情都很敏感我一定性騷擾林榮仁,這個是本會一直以來的態度如果你這說法叫性騷擾林榮仁,但最後的處遇是這樣的時候,我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛\n\n21\n00:06:53,812 --> 00:06:54,953\n委員長你覺得為什麼他會覺得不能平復啊?\n\n22\n00:07:18,121 --> 00:07:36,286\n我剛剛已經講了因為他有另外的想法是他要的東西有達到他的目標因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創第二個這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況所以我才講處理這種事情最明快而且最有效而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人\n\n23\n00:07:37,482 --> 00:07:39,444\n委員我跟您是一樣的心情但是我們根據公務人員服務辦法我們不是說隨意就首長可以自己妄加這個罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲我們還是必須回歸到我們公務員服務法及性別工作法\n\n24\n00:07:57,035 --> 00:08:21,256\n平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展你的專案小組的開會的會議紀錄好像資料也有很多有我們請人事室來馬上提供給劉委員更重要的是我們每一年定期開兩次那現在的召集人數我們的阮副委員長監察院去年3月就已經提醒你要針對外管有一套處置措施要一套新的SOP那到現在為止還沒有結果中間還發生了這樣的事這個是針對外交部的\n\n25\n00:08:24,278 --> 00:08:45,631\n也是要處理阿有結果出來了沒是不是也要跟大家說明一下我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了我們今天的訴求第一個叫重層加害人第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來不要再有下一個悲劇發生啦我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會台灣外交人才很少了不容易阿不要因為這種愚蠢的事情去責損\n\n26\n00:08:46,912 --> 00:08:56,023\n信憑三法的精神有沒有被落實?怎麼落實?給自己答幾個我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的希望委員長回去好好思考一下啦\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n529\t24415\t委員長有請有請黃國錫委員長牛委員恭喜謝謝喔委員長早安喔早安這我請教一下就是我們現在大家都希望說我們這個職場的環境更健康啦尤其是僑務外派其實是一個壓力很大的一個狀況我們要落實性平三法的精神喔委員長你覺得僑務委員會置評可以打幾分\n26858\t45639\t我不敢自評,但是我們每兩年行政院的性評委員會都會幫我們各部會做整體的評估跟評分那我們在112年的成績相較於110年的成績是大幅的進步\n48602\t57066\t謝謝齁 這個我們討論一個個案啦就是之前媒體也見諸報導嘛就是巴西聖保羅的這個這個性騷擾的一個案件嘛這案件大概是這樣啦\n58200\t59300\t當初第一時間的結論是不是說你嚴加告誡加害者\n81787\t85535\t我已經把他判定是性騷擾所以我要求性騷擾加害人調回那你覺得為什麼當事人當初沒有選擇申訴\n92125\t114834\t他覺得我們已經將他職務分離而且他已經要在一定的時間內調回所以他就同意了這樣子的一個我想當初公部門就是這樣大家當然希望說可以就法辦事公正處理但是公部門就是團體生活當然也會擔心這會不會衍生成也許職場上的不友善或者是標籤這些反此種種其實都是背離了性平三法的精神我要先提醒委員長\n115794\t121501\t那後來事情就這樣爆發嗎?10月開始召開記者會顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的?不是委員因為當事人有其他的訴求那個顯然其他的訴求他沒有達到因此他把這個移轉到這樣的一個作業所以他對於當初的處置最後的結果其實是不滿意的嗎?其實\n136298\t163892\t我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說我們在該地的派駐因為餘額的關係要減為一人所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了委員長這個我想遇到這個性平事件雖然本期是男性但我覺得還是要把話講清楚就目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道要嚴懲加害人以禁校遊我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全覺得說這個環境是越來越友善的越來越平等這個你應該不會反對吧\n164492\t183547\t我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人但後來這件事情最後的處置第一個你講調回的部分我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應因為如果你發現這件事按照這樣的邏輯的話你是不是真正因為外管的狀況是很人數是很少的嘛你很難做到真正的職務分離吧\n184948\t191071\t原則上跟委員報告我們還有兩位僱員都在現場我們已經有跟他們說他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係但是當然你還是難免會遇到那在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是主管負有義務要先讓這個友善的環境繼續維持下去所以我在這個第一時間\n213139\t218065\t加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的這個權限關係我問一下為什麼你不第一時間把家人調回來就好了呢?你另外再補人嘛我同意你另外補人那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢?我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認\n228716\t254931\t那到我們要調回是有一定的時間因為我們必須要國內先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證這些東西都還要匯給外交部這個一般的作業我們至少是三個月的期程所以並不是委員想的那麼簡單說我直接先把他調回來那你就變成這個業務沒有人執行了已經要有交接好新的人去才能交接第二個我要再追問的是後來最後的考機嘛因為你能夠\n257814\t271487\t張顯這個職場環境的公平一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為也就是說要嘛就是調離限職你剛剛講好你有一套說法說有一定的程序要跑好沒關係那至少另外一個武器叫烤雞你這加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎難道不應該嚴懲嗎\n273689\t293675\t加害人事實上是幫被害人承接了非常多的工作在一整年的工作當中之所以被害人最後的成績是在平等我今天沒有要跟你爭執說被害人的考記問題我只問加害人的考記問題加害人的考記也沒有很好\n294175\t300079\t他只多他一分而已,那個一分的意義就在於說他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。這個是我們有正式的這個調查委員會,單位委外委員。\n316307\t319129\t這個調查委員會這個不是我決定的這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果我只能我只能簽和而已我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案所以顯然的獨立調查委員會他們自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候他們是認為這個是有不當追求的\n336241\t336421\t委員長徐佳青報告\n353571\t366980\t從制度的角度來看這件事情包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講針對我們的外管你要落實性平三法的這些精神你要杜絕性騷擾這種狀況的時候來講你在外管本來就要有專門的處遇措施嘛因為你距離遙遠人數又不夠\n370202\t394878\t那現在你就馬上遇到這樣的事情是所以在那邊的長官就是加害人本人然後你在處理的時候你又沒有辦法及時調回你有你的理由你又沒有辦法在事後用考機的方式予以重懲那我們怎麼會相信就是說僑務委員會是一個對女性職場相對友善或者是對真的有落實性別平等精神的官場的職場呢委員如果想知道這個案個案我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告\n395478\t413072\t我跟你講,我現在不去討論,我再三強調,我不去跟你討論說悲哀你現在的狀況,因為遇到這樣的事情都很敏感我一定性騷擾林榮仁,這個是本會一直以來的態度如果你這說法叫性騷擾林榮仁,但最後的處遇是這樣的時候,我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛\n413812\t414953\t委員長你覺得為什麼他會覺得不能平復啊?\n438121\t456286\t我剛剛已經講了因為他有另外的想法是他要的東西有達到他的目標因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創第二個這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況所以我才講處理這種事情最明快而且最有效而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人\n457482\t459444\t委員我跟您是一樣的心情但是我們根據公務人員服務辦法我們不是說隨意就首長可以自己妄加這個罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲我們還是必須回歸到我們公務員服務法及性別工作法\n477035\t501256\t平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展你的專案小組的開會的會議紀錄好像資料也有很多有我們請人事室來馬上提供給劉委員更重要的是我們每一年定期開兩次那現在的召集人數我們的阮副委員長監察院去年3月就已經提醒你要針對外管有一套處置措施要一套新的SOP那到現在為止還沒有結果中間還發生了這樣的事這個是針對外交部的\n504278\t525631\t也是要處理阿有結果出來了沒是不是也要跟大家說明一下我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了我們今天的訴求第一個叫重層加害人第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來不要再有下一個悲劇發生啦我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會台灣外交人才很少了不容易阿不要因為這種愚蠢的事情去責損\n526912\t536023\t信憑三法的精神有沒有被落實?怎麼落實?給自己答幾個我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的希望委員長回去好好思考一下啦\n","txt":"委員長有請有請黃國錫委員長牛委員恭喜謝謝喔委員長早安喔早安這我請教一下就是我們現在大家都希望說我們這個職場的環境更健康啦尤其是僑務外派其實是一個壓力很大的一個狀況我們要落實性平三法的精神喔委員長你覺得僑務委員會置評可以打幾分\n我不敢自評,但是我們每兩年行政院的性評委員會都會幫我們各部會做整體的評估跟評分那我們在112年的成績相較於110年的成績是大幅的進步\n謝謝齁 這個我們討論一個個案啦就是之前媒體也見諸報導嘛就是巴西聖保羅的這個這個性騷擾的一個案件嘛這案件大概是這樣啦\n當初第一時間的結論是不是說你嚴加告誡加害者\n我已經把他判定是性騷擾所以我要求性騷擾加害人調回那你覺得為什麼當事人當初沒有選擇申訴\n他覺得我們已經將他職務分離而且他已經要在一定的時間內調回所以他就同意了這樣子的一個我想當初公部門就是這樣大家當然希望說可以就法辦事公正處理但是公部門就是團體生活當然也會擔心這會不會衍生成也許職場上的不友善或者是標籤這些反此種種其實都是背離了性平三法的精神我要先提醒委員長\n那後來事情就這樣爆發嗎?10月開始召開記者會顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的?不是委員因為當事人有其他的訴求那個顯然其他的訴求他沒有達到因此他把這個移轉到這樣的一個作業所以他對於當初的處置最後的結果其實是不滿意的嗎?其實\n我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說我們在該地的派駐因為餘額的關係要減為一人所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了委員長這個我想遇到這個性平事件雖然本期是男性但我覺得還是要把話講清楚就目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道要嚴懲加害人以禁校遊我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全覺得說這個環境是越來越友善的越來越平等這個你應該不會反對吧\n我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人但後來這件事情最後的處置第一個你講調回的部分我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應因為如果你發現這件事按照這樣的邏輯的話你是不是真正因為外管的狀況是很人數是很少的嘛你很難做到真正的職務分離吧\n原則上跟委員報告我們還有兩位僱員都在現場我們已經有跟他們說他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係但是當然你還是難免會遇到那在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是主管負有義務要先讓這個友善的環境繼續維持下去所以我在這個第一時間\n加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的這個權限關係我問一下為什麼你不第一時間把家人調回來就好了呢?你另外再補人嘛我同意你另外補人那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢?我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認\n那到我們要調回是有一定的時間因為我們必須要國內先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證這些東西都還要匯給外交部這個一般的作業我們至少是三個月的期程所以並不是委員想的那麼簡單說我直接先把他調回來那你就變成這個業務沒有人執行了已經要有交接好新的人去才能交接第二個我要再追問的是後來最後的考機嘛因為你能夠\n張顯這個職場環境的公平一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為也就是說要嘛就是調離限職你剛剛講好你有一套說法說有一定的程序要跑好沒關係那至少另外一個武器叫烤雞你這加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎難道不應該嚴懲嗎\n加害人事實上是幫被害人承接了非常多的工作在一整年的工作當中之所以被害人最後的成績是在平等我今天沒有要跟你爭執說被害人的考記問題我只問加害人的考記問題加害人的考記也沒有很好\n他只多他一分而已,那個一分的意義就在於說他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。這個是我們有正式的這個調查委員會,單位委外委員。\n這個調查委員會這個不是我決定的這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果我只能我只能簽和而已我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案所以顯然的獨立調查委員會他們自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候他們是認為這個是有不當追求的\n委員長徐佳青報告\n從制度的角度來看這件事情包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講針對我們的外管你要落實性平三法的這些精神你要杜絕性騷擾這種狀況的時候來講你在外管本來就要有專門的處遇措施嘛因為你距離遙遠人數又不夠\n那現在你就馬上遇到這樣的事情是所以在那邊的長官就是加害人本人然後你在處理的時候你又沒有辦法及時調回你有你的理由你又沒有辦法在事後用考機的方式予以重懲那我們怎麼會相信就是說僑務委員會是一個對女性職場相對友善或者是對真的有落實性別平等精神的官場的職場呢委員如果想知道這個案個案我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告\n我跟你講,我現在不去討論,我再三強調,我不去跟你討論說悲哀你現在的狀況,因為遇到這樣的事情都很敏感我一定性騷擾林榮仁,這個是本會一直以來的態度如果你這說法叫性騷擾林榮仁,但最後的處遇是這樣的時候,我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛\n委員長你覺得為什麼他會覺得不能平復啊?\n我剛剛已經講了因為他有另外的想法是他要的東西有達到他的目標因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創第二個這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況所以我才講處理這種事情最明快而且最有效而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人\n委員我跟您是一樣的心情但是我們根據公務人員服務辦法我們不是說隨意就首長可以自己妄加這個罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲我們還是必須回歸到我們公務員服務法及性別工作法\n平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展你的專案小組的開會的會議紀錄好像資料也有很多有我們請人事室來馬上提供給劉委員更重要的是我們每一年定期開兩次那現在的召集人數我們的阮副委員長監察院去年3月就已經提醒你要針對外管有一套處置措施要一套新的SOP那到現在為止還沒有結果中間還發生了這樣的事這個是針對外交部的\n也是要處理阿有結果出來了沒是不是也要跟大家說明一下我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了我們今天的訴求第一個叫重層加害人第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來不要再有下一個悲劇發生啦我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會台灣外交人才很少了不容易阿不要因為這種愚蠢的事情去責損\n信憑三法的精神有沒有被落實?怎麼落實?給自己答幾個我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的希望委員長回去好好思考一下啦\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.529 --> 00:24.415\n委員長有請有請黃國錫委員長牛委員恭喜謝謝喔委員長早安喔早安這我請教一下就是我們現在大家都希望說我們這個職場的環境更健康啦尤其是僑務外派其實是一個壓力很大的一個狀況我們要落實性平三法的精神喔委員長你覺得僑務委員會置評可以打幾分\n\n00:26.858 --> 00:45.639\n我不敢自評,但是我們每兩年行政院的性評委員會都會幫我們各部會做整體的評估跟評分那我們在112年的成績相較於110年的成績是大幅的進步\n\n00:48.602 --> 00:57.066\n謝謝齁這個我們討論一個個案啦就是之前媒體也見諸報導嘛就是巴西聖保羅的這個這個性騷擾的一個案件嘛這案件大概是這樣啦\n\n00:58.200 --> 00:59.300\n當初第一時間的結論是不是說你嚴加告誡加害者\n\n01:21.787 --> 01:25.535\n我已經把他判定是性騷擾所以我要求性騷擾加害人調回那你覺得為什麼當事人當初沒有選擇申訴\n\n01:32.125 --> 01:54.834\n他覺得我們已經將他職務分離而且他已經要在一定的時間內調回所以他就同意了這樣子的一個我想當初公部門就是這樣大家當然希望說可以就法辦事公正處理但是公部門就是團體生活當然也會擔心這會不會衍生成也許職場上的不友善或者是標籤這些反此種種其實都是背離了性平三法的精神我要先提醒委員長\n\n01:55.794 --> 02:01.501\n那後來事情就這樣爆發嗎?10月開始召開記者會顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的?不是委員因為當事人有其他的訴求那個顯然其他的訴求他沒有達到因此他把這個移轉到這樣的一個作業所以他對於當初的處置最後的結果其實是不滿意的嗎?其實\n\n02:16.298 --> 02:43.892\n我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說我們在該地的派駐因為餘額的關係要減為一人所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了委員長這個我想遇到這個性平事件雖然本期是男性但我覺得還是要把話講清楚就目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道要嚴懲加害人以禁校遊我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全覺得說這個環境是越來越友善的越來越平等這個你應該不會反對吧\n\n02:44.492 --> 03:03.547\n我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人但後來這件事情最後的處置第一個你講調回的部分我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應因為如果你發現這件事按照這樣的邏輯的話你是不是真正因為外管的狀況是很人數是很少的嘛你很難做到真正的職務分離吧\n\n03:04.948 --> 03:11.071\n原則上跟委員報告我們還有兩位僱員都在現場我們已經有跟他們說他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係但是當然你還是難免會遇到那在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是主管負有義務要先讓這個友善的環境繼續維持下去所以我在這個第一時間\n\n03:33.139 --> 03:38.065\n加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的這個權限關係我問一下為什麼你不第一時間把家人調回來就好了呢?你另外再補人嘛我同意你另外補人那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢?我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認\n\n03:48.716 --> 04:14.931\n那到我們要調回是有一定的時間因為我們必須要國內先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證這些東西都還要匯給外交部這個一般的作業我們至少是三個月的期程所以並不是委員想的那麼簡單說我直接先把他調回來那你就變成這個業務沒有人執行了已經要有交接好新的人去才能交接第二個我要再追問的是後來最後的考機嘛因為你能夠\n\n04:17.814 --> 04:31.487\n張顯這個職場環境的公平一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為也就是說要嘛就是調離限職你剛剛講好你有一套說法說有一定的程序要跑好沒關係那至少另外一個武器叫烤雞你這加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎難道不應該嚴懲嗎\n\n04:33.689 --> 04:53.675\n加害人事實上是幫被害人承接了非常多的工作在一整年的工作當中之所以被害人最後的成績是在平等我今天沒有要跟你爭執說被害人的考記問題我只問加害人的考記問題加害人的考記也沒有很好\n\n04:54.175 --> 05:00.079\n他只多他一分而已,那個一分的意義就在於說他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。這個是我們有正式的這個調查委員會,單位委外委員。\n\n05:16.307 --> 05:19.129\n這個調查委員會這個不是我決定的這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果我只能我只能簽和而已我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案所以顯然的獨立調查委員會他們自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候他們是認為這個是有不當追求的\n\n05:36.241 --> 05:36.421\n委員長徐佳青報告\n\n05:53.571 --> 06:06.980\n從制度的角度來看這件事情包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講針對我們的外管你要落實性平三法的這些精神你要杜絕性騷擾這種狀況的時候來講你在外管本來就要有專門的處遇措施嘛因為你距離遙遠人數又不夠\n\n06:10.202 --> 06:34.878\n那現在你就馬上遇到這樣的事情是所以在那邊的長官就是加害人本人然後你在處理的時候你又沒有辦法及時調回你有你的理由你又沒有辦法在事後用考機的方式予以重懲那我們怎麼會相信就是說僑務委員會是一個對女性職場相對友善或者是對真的有落實性別平等精神的官場的職場呢委員如果想知道這個案個案我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告\n\n06:35.478 --> 06:53.072\n我跟你講,我現在不去討論,我再三強調,我不去跟你討論說悲哀你現在的狀況,因為遇到這樣的事情都很敏感我一定性騷擾林榮仁,這個是本會一直以來的態度如果你這說法叫性騷擾林榮仁,但最後的處遇是這樣的時候,我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛\n\n06:53.812 --> 06:54.953\n委員長你覺得為什麼他會覺得不能平復啊?\n\n07:18.121 --> 07:36.286\n我剛剛已經講了因為他有另外的想法是他要的東西有達到他的目標因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創第二個這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況所以我才講處理這種事情最明快而且最有效而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人\n\n07:37.482 --> 07:39.444\n委員我跟您是一樣的心情但是我們根據公務人員服務辦法我們不是說隨意就首長可以自己妄加這個罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲我們還是必須回歸到我們公務員服務法及性別工作法\n\n07:57.035 --> 08:21.256\n平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展你的專案小組的開會的會議紀錄好像資料也有很多有我們請人事室來馬上提供給劉委員更重要的是我們每一年定期開兩次那現在的召集人數我們的阮副委員長監察院去年3月就已經提醒你要針對外管有一套處置措施要一套新的SOP那到現在為止還沒有結果中間還發生了這樣的事這個是針對外交部的\n\n08:24.278 --> 08:45.631\n也是要處理阿有結果出來了沒是不是也要跟大家說明一下我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了我們今天的訴求第一個叫重層加害人第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來不要再有下一個悲劇發生啦我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會台灣外交人才很少了不容易阿不要因為這種愚蠢的事情去責損\n\n08:46.912 --> 08:56.023\n信憑三法的精神有沒有被落實?怎麼落實?給自己答幾個我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的希望委員長回去好好思考一下啦\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.529,"end":24.415,"text":"委員長有請有請黃國錫委員長牛委員恭喜謝謝喔委員長早安喔早安這我請教一下就是我們現在大家都希望說我們這個職場的環境更健康啦尤其是僑務外派其實是一個壓力很大的一個狀況我們要落實性平三法的精神喔委員長你覺得僑務委員會置評可以打幾分"},{"start":26.858,"end":45.639,"text":"我不敢自評,但是我們每兩年行政院的性評委員會都會幫我們各部會做整體的評估跟評分那我們在112年的成績相較於110年的成績是大幅的進步"},{"start":48.602,"end":57.066,"text":"謝謝齁 這個我們討論一個個案啦就是之前媒體也見諸報導嘛就是巴西聖保羅的這個這個性騷擾的一個案件嘛這案件大概是這樣啦"},{"start":58.2,"end":59.3,"text":"當初第一時間的結論是不是說你嚴加告誡加害者"},{"start":81.787,"end":85.535,"text":"我已經把他判定是性騷擾所以我要求性騷擾加害人調回那你覺得為什麼當事人當初沒有選擇申訴"},{"start":92.125,"end":114.834,"text":"他覺得我們已經將他職務分離而且他已經要在一定的時間內調回所以他就同意了這樣子的一個我想當初公部門就是這樣大家當然希望說可以就法辦事公正處理但是公部門就是團體生活當然也會擔心這會不會衍生成也許職場上的不友善或者是標籤這些反此種種其實都是背離了性平三法的精神我要先提醒委員長"},{"start":115.794,"end":121.501,"text":"那後來事情就這樣爆發嗎?10月開始召開記者會顯然對於後續的處置跟狀況是不太滿意的?不是委員因為當事人有其他的訴求那個顯然其他的訴求他沒有達到因此他把這個移轉到這樣的一個作業所以他對於當初的處置最後的結果其實是不滿意的嗎?其實"},{"start":136.298,"end":163.892,"text":"我們其實在6月的時候已經有告知他說我們在該地的派駐因為餘額的關係要減為一人所以當時他已經知道他要被調回了委員長這個我想遇到這個性平事件雖然本期是男性但我覺得還是要把話講清楚就目標其實都是要還給被害人一個公道要嚴懲加害人以禁校遊我們才能夠讓大家覺得安全覺得說這個環境是越來越友善的越來越平等這個你應該不會反對吧"},{"start":164.492,"end":183.547,"text":"我本身就是促進這些立法過程的當事人但後來這件事情最後的處置第一個你講調回的部分我是蠻懷疑當初第一時間的反應因為如果你發現這件事按照這樣的邏輯的話你是不是真正因為外管的狀況是很人數是很少的嘛你很難做到真正的職務分離吧"},{"start":184.948,"end":191.071,"text":"原則上跟委員報告我們還有兩位僱員都在現場我們已經有跟他們說他們在職務上面沒有主管的權限關係但是當然你還是難免會遇到那在職場上我們處理性騷擾的原則就是主管負有義務要先讓這個友善的環境繼續維持下去所以我在這個第一時間"},{"start":213.139,"end":218.065,"text":"加害人的主管已經被拿掉跟他的這個權限關係我問一下為什麼你不第一時間把家人調回來就好了呢?你另外再補人嘛我同意你另外補人那你為什麼不第一時間調走呢?我6月20號進行這樣的訪談跟確認"},{"start":228.716,"end":254.931,"text":"那到我們要調回是有一定的時間因為我們必須要國內先徵詢好要接班的人以及要辦理簽證這些東西都還要匯給外交部這個一般的作業我們至少是三個月的期程所以並不是委員想的那麼簡單說我直接先把他調回來那你就變成這個業務沒有人執行了已經要有交接好新的人去才能交接第二個我要再追問的是後來最後的考機嘛因為你能夠"},{"start":257.814,"end":271.487,"text":"張顯這個職場環境的公平一定是對加害人要有相對嚴格的作為也就是說要嘛就是調離限職你剛剛講好你有一套說法說有一定的程序要跑好沒關係那至少另外一個武器叫烤雞你這加害人光是憑這件事情難道不應該重罰嗎難道不應該嚴懲嗎"},{"start":273.689,"end":293.675,"text":"加害人事實上是幫被害人承接了非常多的工作在一整年的工作當中之所以被害人最後的成績是在平等我今天沒有要跟你爭執說被害人的考記問題我只問加害人的考記問題加害人的考記也沒有很好"},{"start":294.175,"end":300.079,"text":"他只多他一分而已,那個一分的意義就在於說他幫他接了所有這些爛攤子的工作。這個是我們有正式的這個調查委員會,單位委外委員。"},{"start":316.307,"end":319.129,"text":"這個調查委員會這個不是我決定的這是調查委員會做出的懲處結果我只能我只能簽和而已我並無法改變這個獨立調查委員會的建議案所以顯然的獨立調查委員會他們自己在判定這個輕重緩急的時候他們是認為這個是有不當追求的"},{"start":336.241,"end":336.421,"text":"委員長徐佳青報告"},{"start":353.571,"end":366.98,"text":"從制度的角度來看這件事情包含監察院其實在去年3月就已經跟你們講針對我們的外管你要落實性平三法的這些精神你要杜絕性騷擾這種狀況的時候來講你在外管本來就要有專門的處遇措施嘛因為你距離遙遠人數又不夠"},{"start":370.202,"end":394.878,"text":"那現在你就馬上遇到這樣的事情是所以在那邊的長官就是加害人本人然後你在處理的時候你又沒有辦法及時調回你有你的理由你又沒有辦法在事後用考機的方式予以重懲那我們怎麼會相信就是說僑務委員會是一個對女性職場相對友善或者是對真的有落實性別平等精神的官場的職場呢委員如果想知道這個案個案我想我私下可以去辦公室跟您報告"},{"start":395.478,"end":413.072,"text":"我跟你講,我現在不去討論,我再三強調,我不去跟你討論說悲哀你現在的狀況,因為遇到這樣的事情都很敏感我一定性騷擾林榮仁,這個是本會一直以來的態度如果你這說法叫性騷擾林榮仁,但最後的處遇是這樣的時候,我覺得大家可能不會相信這件事情嘛"},{"start":413.812,"end":414.953,"text":"委員長你覺得為什麼他會覺得不能平復啊?"},{"start":438.121,"end":456.286,"text":"我剛剛已經講了因為他有另外的想法是他要的東西有達到他的目標因為這種事情第一個一定身心受創第二個這種東西延伸下來一定就是難免被貼標籤甚至變成職場霸凌的狀況所以我才講處理這種事情最明快而且最有效而且能夠彰顯社會公平的方法就是重懲加害人"},{"start":457.482,"end":459.444,"text":"委員我跟您是一樣的心情但是我們根據公務人員服務辦法我們不是說隨意就首長可以自己妄加這個罪名或者是給他什麼樣的重懲我們還是必須回歸到我們公務員服務法及性別工作法"},{"start":477.035,"end":501.256,"text":"平等推動成果報告好像沒有新的進展你的專案小組的開會的會議紀錄好像資料也有很多有我們請人事室來馬上提供給劉委員更重要的是我們每一年定期開兩次那現在的召集人數我們的阮副委員長監察院去年3月就已經提醒你要針對外管有一套處置措施要一套新的SOP那到現在為止還沒有結果中間還發生了這樣的事這個是針對外交部的"},{"start":504.278,"end":525.631,"text":"也是要處理阿有結果出來了沒是不是也要跟大家說明一下我們已經都有把相關的報告交到監察院了我們今天的訴求第一個叫重層加害人第二個就是趕快把制度完善起來不要再有下一個悲劇發生啦我是嚴肅提醒僑務委員會台灣外交人才很少了不容易阿不要因為這種愚蠢的事情去責損"},{"start":526.912,"end":536.023,"text":"信憑三法的精神有沒有被落實?怎麼落實?給自己答幾個我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的希望委員長回去好好思考一下啦"}]}}}}