{"id":149789,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69032c23c282c4e55ab4b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a614d5e53a528fd4095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:14:08 - 11:24:59","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":651,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:24:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:14:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":974,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時14分）謝謝主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主計長，您好。請教主計長，您覺得補助收入跟稅課收入對政府機關而言，哪一種比較好？會比較期待拿到哪一種收入？"],["朱主計長澤民：從中央的觀點是稅課收入比較好，因為它的財源比較穩定，補助是由上級機關補助他，不過有些稅課收入受先天的影響，還是要靠補助以解決地方的不均，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。主計長，您幾乎是已經把我想要問的態度都講出來了。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：事實上根據我們的預算法，我們的總預算案應該要在會計年度開始的一個月前，也就是11月底前，要由立法院議決嘛！可是我們看到資料，過去的14年立法院從來沒有在法定期限內完成三讀，通常都會到12月，又或者是到1月會計年度開始；地方的議會預算三讀也是這樣，常常因為議事的繁雜而延宕，所以通常會拖到1月，甚至是2月才通過。","為什麼我這樣子關心這個問題？主計長，請您看一下，有一些原住民鄉因為六都的關係合併。以高雄市的桃源區公所來看，它在縣市合併之前，它的歲入預算大約是17億，可是它曾經一度失去公法人的地位，4年之後2014年又恢復為原住民區的公法人，它的歲入預算回來也是一樣17億。可是我們看一下它的結構，它的稅課收入從過去合併前的70%，到現在是變成0，幾乎80%都要靠一般性的補助收入，所以您剛才講的話就是地方的心聲。","為什麼會這樣？它其實是因為地制法那時在修，是寫「山地原住民區實施自治所需財源，由直轄市依下列因素予以設算補助，並維持改制前各該山地鄉統籌分配財源水準」，也就是等中央政府的統籌分配稅款到縣市政府之後，它又要等，因為還要從上級政府到鄉鎮公所。有時候財政部有超收、有紅包，它也是直接撥給縣市政府，可是他們不一定拿得到。現在還有第二個狀況，地制法第八十三條之七說：「改制前各該山地鄉前三年度稅課收入平均數」。您看一下，這個是高雄市桃源區，也就是合併的原鄉區，它改制前後的收入是差不多的，以桃源區來講，大約是15億，可是一般的原住民鄉，我們可以看到，它可以高達……這個是泰安鄉，可以多達20億，它是浮動的，有一些紅包可以收，所以在這邊想要請教主計長，如果從預算考核的角度，稅課收入是否較補助收入對地方自治財政健全有幫助？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，的確，這個也是大家努力的方向，財劃法要讓地方有更多的稅課收入……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["朱主計長澤民：不過必須跟委員報告一下，我可能要跟委員核對一下，你那個金額在前面的17.6億，恐怕是小數點有標……我們再跟您辦公室核對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那就請再到我的辦公室給我一些正確的數據。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是我現在就是要講，既然我前面問了你的態度是支持肯定。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我現在問，你也是支持肯定的。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，可是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我希望財劃法第三條在第四款增加一下「直轄市原民區」好嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，可是它有一些指標，那些指標在分配的時候，原民區就不一定能夠分配到稅課，我必須這麼講……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我們知道有這個不確定因素。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是至少目前合併的原鄉區，他們有這個困擾。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，所以……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這一次修法的時候，我們會希望把第三條第四款增加「直轄市原民區」。你剛剛的回答是贊同的嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，贊同的，但我必須說明一下，因為地方的稅大部分都是財產稅，那個財產稅如果要增加收入，可能會有人反對，因為他那個財產價值又沒有增加……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那主計長可不可以這樣，就是有機會可以到辦公室嗎？我們來討論。"],["朱主計長澤民：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：畢竟我們也要提出修法版本，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主計長，接下來請審計長。"],["主席：請審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：審計長，您好。根據審計部的非營業基金審核報告，它常常提到原民會有一個原住民族綜合發展基金的問題，最常被詬病的就是原發基金的逾放比常年偏高。確實，因為一般的銀行逾放比是0.17%，但是原發基金最高可以衝20%，現在大概也有8%，確實是太高了。","你們的解釋是，有待從根本協助提升借貸戶的金融素養及財務管理能力，所以我們也看到金管會或者是原民會，這些年也做了很多的教育宣導或是普惠金融的政策。我想要請教審計長，你個人認為原住民族綜合發展基金逾放比過高是誰的問題？是原民會的問題比較多，還是原住民族、原住民個人的問題比較多，還是整個社會結構性的問題比較多？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我比較偏向委員後面那個問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：社會結構？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：結構上。因為我們一定要幫原民、儘量協助他們，這個難免會……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：金融研訓院於2020年的報告有提出財務脆弱六大族群，其中就有新住民、原住民，也就是認為他們的財力是相對較弱的，抵抗力也是處於極低的比例，抵抗力包括自身財力、金融服務取得等方面，審計長應該比我都更清楚。第二個問題，他還會遇到經濟因素，譬如借貸需求，但是銀行通常都不願意承貸、放貸原保地，求助財政部也沒有結果，找正規的金融機構求貸無門只好找地下管道，最後連土地都沒有了，所以這是結構的問題。","第三個，我們也看到原發基金其實有連年連續短絀的問題，這也是一個很麻煩的問題。另外，還有所謂的禁伐補償金，謝謝主計總處、主計長，在我們質詢之後，我看到去年的預算已經在今年開始放入公務預算，而且是足額。可是過去多年來都不足額，都是從綜發基金的錢去處理，現在雖然有撥補，以去年來講，雖然你們撥補到21億，但是還是有一些短絀的問題，所以原發基金也是連年下降。","關於這個部分，我想要請教審計單位，其實原發基金的收入很有限，但是我們看到它的用途包括要去做事業貸款之外，還有很多，譬如要做我們的建購、修繕，還要蓋社宅，還要去做溫泉開發等等很多，可是它的錢就沒有很多，然後也賺不了錢，怎麼辦呢？所以這個部分我想要請教審計長，因為原發基金有連年短絀、貸款逾放比過高等等的問題，需要做跨部會的檢討改進，對不對？這應該不是只有要問責原民會吧？審計部對於這個部分的議題可不可以提出一個專案的審計報告給我的辦公室？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以，我們的基本審核會檢視所有基金的盈餘怎麼樣，原民發展綜合基金是有發生3年短絀情形，其收入是有限的，固定進來不多，但是要做的事情很多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊！但是我們都期待它的錢越來越多，因為要做的事很多，所以幫我們跨部會來想辦法，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：先把脈診斷，再給我們解方。"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，只要符合規定、符合發放標準，即使有短絀，我們也會發給它，因為基金可以併決算辦理，隔一年度我們再考慮它要編列多少。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：想辦法讓它可以賺多一點錢，謝謝主計長、謝謝審計長，如果有需要開會也通知我辦公室，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：好。"],["主席：請李委員坤城發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強"],"page_start":33,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"149789","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149789","tool":"pyannote","id":"149789-pyannote"},"job_id":"3gl1mT4pmemY4geq","queued_at":"2024-06-02 04:47:12","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 04:48:12","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149789"},{"time":"2024-06-02 04:48:13","msg":"downloading 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00:01:30,227\n又或者到一月快進年度開始那地方的議會預算三讀也是這樣常常因為議事的一個繁雜而延宕所以通常會拖到一月甚至是二月才通過那為什麼我這樣子關心這個問題主計長請您看一下如果說有一些的原住民鄉他因為六都的關係合併\n\n4\n00:01:32,469 --> 00:01:39,786\n所以以高雄市的這個桃園區公所來看他在縣市合併之前\n\n5\n00:01:40,919 --> 00:02:01,946\n他的稅入預算大約是17億可是呢他曾經一度失去公法人的地位4年之後2014年又恢復他的原住民區的一個公法人那他的稅入預算回來也是一樣17億可是我們看一下的結構他的稅購收入從過去合併前的70%\n\n6\n00:02:06,508 --> 00:02:23,990\n到現在是變成零幾乎百分之八十都要靠一般性的補助收入所以您剛才講的話就是地方的新生那為什麼會這樣他其實是因為地質法那時候修的時候他是寫\n\n7\n00:02:24,791 --> 00:02:45,960\n山地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依下列因素予以設算補助並維持改制前各山地相統籌分配的財源水準那也就是說他等中央政府的統籌分配稅款到縣市政府之後他又要等\n\n8\n00:02:46,780 --> 00:03:02,316\n然後到他的一個上級政府到鄉鎮公所那有時候財政部呢他有抄收有紅包那他也是直接撥給縣市政府可是他們就不一定拿得到所以現在的一個狀況還有第二個狀況\n\n9\n00:03:04,418 --> 00:03:20,570\n他的地制法這個83-7他說改制前各該山地鄉前三年度的稅客收入的平均數所以您看一下這個是高雄市桃園區也就是合併的園鄉區\n\n10\n00:03:22,651 --> 00:03:50,663\n他改制前後他的收入是差不多的以桃園區來講大約是15億可是一般的原住民鄉我們可以看到他可以高達這幾年這個是泰安鄉可以多達20億那他是浮動的他有一些紅包可以收所以在這邊想要請教主計長如果說從預算考核的角度那麼稅客收入我們可以看\n\n11\n00:03:52,264 --> 00:04:12,603\n這個稅客的收入就是是否叫補助收入對地方自治財政健全比較有幫助對的確的這個也是我們大家努力的方向說財化法要讓地方有更多的稅客收入不過我剛才逼近跟委員報告一下我可能要跟委員合對一下\n\n12\n00:04:14,625 --> 00:04:31,022\n你那個金額在前面的那個17.6億恐怕是小數點飆有飆的我們再跟您辦公室合對謝謝那就請再到我的辦公室給我一些正確的收據但是我現在就是要講\n\n13\n00:04:32,003 --> 00:04:50,503\n既然我前面我問了你的態度是支持肯定的那我現在問你也是支持肯定的所以我希望才化法第三條在我們的這個第四款增加一下直轄市園民區好嗎\n\n14\n00:04:51,604 --> 00:05:18,243\n對可是他有一些指標那些指標在園民區在分配的時候就不一定能夠分配到稅客我必須這麼講對我們知道我們知道有這個不確定因素但是至少目前合併的園鄉區他們有這個困擾所以我希望是說這一次修法的時候我們會希望把第三條第四款來增加直轄市園民區\n\n15\n00:05:20,017 --> 00:05:43,064\n你跟他的回答是贊同的嗎?對,對,贊同的那我必須說明一下因為地方的稅大部分都是財產稅啦那個財產稅的話如果要增加收入那可能會有人反對說他那個財產價值又沒有增加那主計長可不可以這樣就是有機會可以到辦公室嗎?我們來討論畢竟我們也要提出修法版本嘛對不對謝謝主計長那接下來請審計長請審計長\n\n16\n00:05:53,621 --> 00:06:10,784\n委員好好審計長您好根據審計部的這個非營業基金審核報告他常常提到原民會有一個原住民族綜合發展基金的問題那最常被詬病的就是這個原發基金呢\n\n17\n00:06:11,345 --> 00:06:27,253\n他的預放比率是長年偏高確實因為最高我們一般的銀行預放比0.17%但是我們的原發基金他最高可以從20%那現在大概也有8%確實是太高了\n\n18\n00:06:30,034 --> 00:06:50,804\n那你們的解釋是說有待從根本協助提升借貸戶的金融素養及財務管理能力所以我們也看到金管會或者是圓明會這些年也是去做了很多的一個教育宣導或者是普惠金融的一些政策那我想要請教一下沈記長\n\n19\n00:06:51,804 --> 00:07:05,871\n您自己個人認為這個原住民族綜合發展基金預放比過高應該是誰的問題是原民會問題比較多還是原住民族原住民個人的問題比較多還是整個社會結構性的問題比較多\n\n20\n00:07:08,035 --> 00:07:14,058\n我比較偏向委員後面那個問題因為嚴明我們一定要幫他啦所以能夠盡量協助他們因為金融研訓院他2020年的一個報告他有提出財務脆弱的六大族群那其中就有新住民原住民也就是說認為他們的財力是相對較弱的\n\n21\n00:07:34,747 --> 00:07:55,994\n底抗力也是處於極低的比例所以他的底抗力包括自身的財力所以這些方面還有金融服務的取得等等我想審計長你應該比我都更清楚那他第二個問題就是說他還會遇到像他經濟因素他就有借貸需求但是元寶地\n\n22\n00:07:56,574 --> 00:08:10,679\n我們的銀行通常都不願意承貸放貸然後求助財政部也沒有結果找正規金融機構求貸無門就找地下管道最後連土地都沒有了所以我想這個結構的問題那第三個就是說\n\n23\n00:08:13,340 --> 00:08:41,211\n我們也看到原發基金他其實是有連年連續短促的一個問題所以這個也是一個很麻煩的問題那另外就是說我們有所謂的進法補償金那當然謝謝主計長、主計處就是在我們質詢之下呢我看到就是去年的預算已經在今年開始放入公務預算而且是足額可是呢過去多年來都不足額而且是從重發基金的錢去處理\n\n24\n00:08:42,592 --> 00:09:02,624\n那現在雖然補以去年來講雖然你補到21億但是他還是有一些短處的問題所以那個原發基金也是連年下降那我現在就是想要請教一下就是關於這個部分我們審計單位因為我們的原發基金他其實收入很有限\n\n25\n00:09:03,504 --> 00:09:18,135\n但是呢我們看到他的用途還包括他要去做事業貸款之外還有很多包括要做我們的建構修繕還要去蓋社宅還要去做溫泉開發等等等很多\n\n26\n00:09:18,755 --> 00:09:38,754\n那他錢就沒有很多啊然後也賺不了錢啊那怎麼辦呢所以這個部分我就是想要請教審計長因為這個原發基金他有連年短數貸款預放比過高等等等的問題需要做跨部會的檢討改進對不對這應該不是只有要問責原民會吧\n\n27\n00:09:40,154 --> 00:09:55,517\n所以我希望審計部對於這個部分這個議題可不可以提出一個專案的審計報告給我的辦公室可以因為這個是這樣我們會我們的基本審核會把所有的基金看看它的盈餘怎麼樣\n\n28\n00:10:01,779 --> 00:10:15,343\n是但是他的收入是有限的固定金還不多但是要做的事情很多但是我們都期待他錢越來越多啊因為要做的事很多所以幫我們跨部會來想辦法好不好先把脈診斷嘛給我們解方\n\n29\n00:10:17,603 --> 00:10:19,244\n下一位質詢請李坤臣李委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t20185\t主計長您好請教主計長您覺得補助收入跟稅客收入對政府機關而言哪一種比較好會比較期待哪一種收入從中央的一個觀點\n21186\t37875\t﹗\n39350\t63784\t主計長您幾乎已經是把我想要問的態度已經講出來了事實上根據我們的預算法我們的總預算案應該要在快進年度開始的一個月前也就是11月底前要由立法院議決可是我們看到資料過去的14年立法院從來沒有在法定期限內完成三讀通常都會到12月\n65345\t90227\t又或者到一月快進年度開始那地方的議會預算三讀也是這樣常常因為議事的一個繁雜而延宕所以通常會拖到一月甚至是二月才通過那為什麼我這樣子關心這個問題主計長請您看一下如果說有一些的原住民鄉他因為六都的關係合併\n92469\t99786\t所以以高雄市的這個桃園區公所來看他在縣市合併之前\n100919\t121946\t他的稅入預算大約是17億可是呢他曾經一度失去公法人的地位4年之後2014年又恢復他的原住民區的一個公法人那他的稅入預算回來也是一樣17億可是我們看一下的結構他的稅購收入從過去合併前的70%\n126508\t143990\t到現在是變成零幾乎百分之八十都要靠一般性的補助收入所以您剛才講的話就是地方的新生那為什麼會這樣他其實是因為地質法那時候修的時候他是寫\n144791\t165960\t山地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依下列因素予以設算補助並維持改制前各山地相統籌分配的財源水準那也就是說他等中央政府的統籌分配稅款到縣市政府之後他又要等\n166780\t182316\t然後到他的一個上級政府到鄉鎮公所那有時候財政部呢他有抄收有紅包那他也是直接撥給縣市政府可是他們就不一定拿得到所以現在的一個狀況還有第二個狀況\n184418\t200570\t他的地制法這個83-7他說改制前各該山地鄉前三年度的稅客收入的平均數所以您看一下這個是高雄市桃園區也就是合併的園鄉區\n202651\t230663\t他改制前後他的收入是差不多的以桃園區來講大約是15億可是一般的原住民鄉我們可以看到他可以高達這幾年這個是泰安鄉可以多達20億那他是浮動的他有一些紅包可以收所以在這邊想要請教主計長如果說從預算考核的角度那麼稅客收入我們可以看\n232264\t252603\t這個稅客的收入就是是否叫補助收入對地方自治財政健全比較有幫助對的確的這個也是我們大家努力的方向說財化法要讓地方有更多的稅客收入不過我剛才逼近跟委員報告一下我可能要跟委員合對一下\n254625\t271022\t你那個金額在前面的那個17.6億恐怕是小數點飆有飆的我們再跟您辦公室合對謝謝那就請再到我的辦公室給我一些正確的收據但是我現在就是要講\n272003\t290503\t既然我前面我問了你的態度是支持肯定的那我現在問你也是支持肯定的所以我希望才化法第三條在我們的這個第四款增加一下直轄市園民區好嗎\n291604\t318243\t對可是他有一些指標那些指標在園民區在分配的時候就不一定能夠分配到稅客我必須這麼講對我們知道我們知道有這個不確定因素但是至少目前合併的園鄉區他們有這個困擾所以我希望是說這一次修法的時候我們會希望把第三條第四款來增加直轄市園民區\n320017\t343064\t你跟他的回答是贊同的嗎?對,對,贊同的那我必須說明一下因為地方的稅大部分都是財產稅啦那個財產稅的話如果要增加收入那可能會有人反對說他那個財產價值又沒有增加那主計長可不可以這樣就是有機會可以到辦公室嗎?我們來討論畢竟我們也要提出修法版本嘛對不對謝謝主計長那接下來請審計長請審計長\n353621\t370784\t委員好好審計長您好根據審計部的這個非營業基金審核報告他常常提到原民會有一個原住民族綜合發展基金的問題那最常被詬病的就是這個原發基金呢\n371345\t387253\t他的預放比率是長年偏高確實因為最高我們一般的銀行預放比0.17%但是我們的原發基金他最高可以從20%那現在大概也有8%確實是太高了\n390034\t410804\t那你們的解釋是說有待從根本協助提升借貸戶的金融素養及財務管理能力所以我們也看到金管會或者是圓明會這些年也是去做了很多的一個教育宣導或者是普惠金融的一些政策那我想要請教一下沈記長\n411804\t425871\t您自己個人認為這個原住民族綜合發展基金預放比過高應該是誰的問題是原民會問題比較多還是原住民族原住民個人的問題比較多還是整個社會結構性的問題比較多\n428035\t434058\t我比較偏向委員後面那個問題因為嚴明我們一定要幫他啦所以能夠盡量協助他們因為金融研訓院他2020年的一個報告他有提出財務脆弱的六大族群那其中就有新住民原住民也就是說認為他們的財力是相對較弱的\n454747\t475994\t底抗力也是處於極低的比例所以他的底抗力包括自身的財力所以這些方面還有金融服務的取得等等我想審計長你應該比我都更清楚那他第二個問題就是說他還會遇到像他經濟因素他就有借貸需求但是元寶地\n476574\t490679\t我們的銀行通常都不願意承貸放貸然後求助財政部也沒有結果找正規金融機構求貸無門就找地下管道最後連土地都沒有了所以我想這個結構的問題那第三個就是說\n493340\t521211\t我們也看到原發基金他其實是有連年連續短促的一個問題所以這個也是一個很麻煩的問題那另外就是說我們有所謂的進法補償金那當然謝謝主計長、主計處就是在我們質詢之下呢我看到就是去年的預算已經在今年開始放入公務預算而且是足額可是呢過去多年來都不足額而且是從重發基金的錢去處理\n522592\t542624\t那現在雖然補以去年來講雖然你補到21億但是他還是有一些短處的問題所以那個原發基金也是連年下降那我現在就是想要請教一下就是關於這個部分我們審計單位因為我們的原發基金他其實收入很有限\n543504\t558135\t但是呢我們看到他的用途還包括他要去做事業貸款之外還有很多包括要做我們的建構修繕還要去蓋社宅還要去做溫泉開發等等等很多\n558755\t578754\t那他錢就沒有很多啊然後也賺不了錢啊那怎麼辦呢所以這個部分我就是想要請教審計長因為這個原發基金他有連年短數貸款預放比過高等等等的問題需要做跨部會的檢討改進對不對這應該不是只有要問責原民會吧\n580154\t595517\t所以我希望審計部對於這個部分這個議題可不可以提出一個專案的審計報告給我的辦公室可以因為這個是這樣我們會我們的基本審核會把所有的基金看看它的盈餘怎麼樣\n601779\t615343\t是但是他的收入是有限的固定金還不多但是要做的事情很多但是我們都期待他錢越來越多啊因為要做的事很多所以幫我們跨部會來想辦法好不好先把脈診斷嘛給我們解方\n617603\t619244\t下一位質詢請李坤臣李委員\n650435\t651049\t謝謝!\n","txt":"主計長您好請教主計長您覺得補助收入跟稅客收入對政府機關而言哪一種比較好會比較期待哪一種收入從中央的一個觀點\n﹗\n主計長您幾乎已經是把我想要問的態度已經講出來了事實上根據我們的預算法我們的總預算案應該要在快進年度開始的一個月前也就是11月底前要由立法院議決可是我們看到資料過去的14年立法院從來沒有在法定期限內完成三讀通常都會到12月\n又或者到一月快進年度開始那地方的議會預算三讀也是這樣常常因為議事的一個繁雜而延宕所以通常會拖到一月甚至是二月才通過那為什麼我這樣子關心這個問題主計長請您看一下如果說有一些的原住民鄉他因為六都的關係合併\n所以以高雄市的這個桃園區公所來看他在縣市合併之前\n他的稅入預算大約是17億可是呢他曾經一度失去公法人的地位4年之後2014年又恢復他的原住民區的一個公法人那他的稅入預算回來也是一樣17億可是我們看一下的結構他的稅購收入從過去合併前的70%\n到現在是變成零幾乎百分之八十都要靠一般性的補助收入所以您剛才講的話就是地方的新生那為什麼會這樣他其實是因為地質法那時候修的時候他是寫\n山地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依下列因素予以設算補助並維持改制前各山地相統籌分配的財源水準那也就是說他等中央政府的統籌分配稅款到縣市政府之後他又要等\n然後到他的一個上級政府到鄉鎮公所那有時候財政部呢他有抄收有紅包那他也是直接撥給縣市政府可是他們就不一定拿得到所以現在的一個狀況還有第二個狀況\n他的地制法這個83-7他說改制前各該山地鄉前三年度的稅客收入的平均數所以您看一下這個是高雄市桃園區也就是合併的園鄉區\n他改制前後他的收入是差不多的以桃園區來講大約是15億可是一般的原住民鄉我們可以看到他可以高達這幾年這個是泰安鄉可以多達20億那他是浮動的他有一些紅包可以收所以在這邊想要請教主計長如果說從預算考核的角度那麼稅客收入我們可以看\n這個稅客的收入就是是否叫補助收入對地方自治財政健全比較有幫助對的確的這個也是我們大家努力的方向說財化法要讓地方有更多的稅客收入不過我剛才逼近跟委員報告一下我可能要跟委員合對一下\n你那個金額在前面的那個17.6億恐怕是小數點飆有飆的我們再跟您辦公室合對謝謝那就請再到我的辦公室給我一些正確的收據但是我現在就是要講\n既然我前面我問了你的態度是支持肯定的那我現在問你也是支持肯定的所以我希望才化法第三條在我們的這個第四款增加一下直轄市園民區好嗎\n對可是他有一些指標那些指標在園民區在分配的時候就不一定能夠分配到稅客我必須這麼講對我們知道我們知道有這個不確定因素但是至少目前合併的園鄉區他們有這個困擾所以我希望是說這一次修法的時候我們會希望把第三條第四款來增加直轄市園民區\n你跟他的回答是贊同的嗎?對,對,贊同的那我必須說明一下因為地方的稅大部分都是財產稅啦那個財產稅的話如果要增加收入那可能會有人反對說他那個財產價值又沒有增加那主計長可不可以這樣就是有機會可以到辦公室嗎?我們來討論畢竟我們也要提出修法版本嘛對不對謝謝主計長那接下來請審計長請審計長\n委員好好審計長您好根據審計部的這個非營業基金審核報告他常常提到原民會有一個原住民族綜合發展基金的問題那最常被詬病的就是這個原發基金呢\n他的預放比率是長年偏高確實因為最高我們一般的銀行預放比0.17%但是我們的原發基金他最高可以從20%那現在大概也有8%確實是太高了\n那你們的解釋是說有待從根本協助提升借貸戶的金融素養及財務管理能力所以我們也看到金管會或者是圓明會這些年也是去做了很多的一個教育宣導或者是普惠金融的一些政策那我想要請教一下沈記長\n您自己個人認為這個原住民族綜合發展基金預放比過高應該是誰的問題是原民會問題比較多還是原住民族原住民個人的問題比較多還是整個社會結構性的問題比較多\n我比較偏向委員後面那個問題因為嚴明我們一定要幫他啦所以能夠盡量協助他們因為金融研訓院他2020年的一個報告他有提出財務脆弱的六大族群那其中就有新住民原住民也就是說認為他們的財力是相對較弱的\n底抗力也是處於極低的比例所以他的底抗力包括自身的財力所以這些方面還有金融服務的取得等等我想審計長你應該比我都更清楚那他第二個問題就是說他還會遇到像他經濟因素他就有借貸需求但是元寶地\n我們的銀行通常都不願意承貸放貸然後求助財政部也沒有結果找正規金融機構求貸無門就找地下管道最後連土地都沒有了所以我想這個結構的問題那第三個就是說\n我們也看到原發基金他其實是有連年連續短促的一個問題所以這個也是一個很麻煩的問題那另外就是說我們有所謂的進法補償金那當然謝謝主計長、主計處就是在我們質詢之下呢我看到就是去年的預算已經在今年開始放入公務預算而且是足額可是呢過去多年來都不足額而且是從重發基金的錢去處理\n那現在雖然補以去年來講雖然你補到21億但是他還是有一些短處的問題所以那個原發基金也是連年下降那我現在就是想要請教一下就是關於這個部分我們審計單位因為我們的原發基金他其實收入很有限\n但是呢我們看到他的用途還包括他要去做事業貸款之外還有很多包括要做我們的建構修繕還要去蓋社宅還要去做溫泉開發等等等很多\n那他錢就沒有很多啊然後也賺不了錢啊那怎麼辦呢所以這個部分我就是想要請教審計長因為這個原發基金他有連年短數貸款預放比過高等等等的問題需要做跨部會的檢討改進對不對這應該不是只有要問責原民會吧\n所以我希望審計部對於這個部分這個議題可不可以提出一個專案的審計報告給我的辦公室可以因為這個是這樣我們會我們的基本審核會把所有的基金看看它的盈餘怎麼樣\n是但是他的收入是有限的固定金還不多但是要做的事情很多但是我們都期待他錢越來越多啊因為要做的事很多所以幫我們跨部會來想辦法好不好先把脈診斷嘛給我們解方\n下一位質詢請李坤臣李委員\n謝謝!\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:20.185\n主計長您好請教主計長您覺得補助收入跟稅客收入對政府機關而言哪一種比較好會比較期待哪一種收入從中央的一個觀點\n\n00:39.350 --> 01:03.784\n主計長您幾乎已經是把我想要問的態度已經講出來了事實上根據我們的預算法我們的總預算案應該要在快進年度開始的一個月前也就是11月底前要由立法院議決可是我們看到資料過去的14年立法院從來沒有在法定期限內完成三讀通常都會到12月\n\n01:05.345 --> 01:30.227\n又或者到一月快進年度開始那地方的議會預算三讀也是這樣常常因為議事的一個繁雜而延宕所以通常會拖到一月甚至是二月才通過那為什麼我這樣子關心這個問題主計長請您看一下如果說有一些的原住民鄉他因為六都的關係合併\n\n01:32.469 --> 01:39.786\n所以以高雄市的這個桃園區公所來看他在縣市合併之前\n\n01:40.919 --> 02:01.946\n他的稅入預算大約是17億可是呢他曾經一度失去公法人的地位4年之後2014年又恢復他的原住民區的一個公法人那他的稅入預算回來也是一樣17億可是我們看一下的結構他的稅購收入從過去合併前的70%\n\n02:06.508 --> 02:23.990\n到現在是變成零幾乎百分之八十都要靠一般性的補助收入所以您剛才講的話就是地方的新生那為什麼會這樣他其實是因為地質法那時候修的時候他是寫\n\n02:24.791 --> 02:45.960\n山地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依下列因素予以設算補助並維持改制前各山地相統籌分配的財源水準那也就是說他等中央政府的統籌分配稅款到縣市政府之後他又要等\n\n02:46.780 --> 03:02.316\n然後到他的一個上級政府到鄉鎮公所那有時候財政部呢他有抄收有紅包那他也是直接撥給縣市政府可是他們就不一定拿得到所以現在的一個狀況還有第二個狀況\n\n03:04.418 --> 03:20.570\n他的地制法這個83-7他說改制前各該山地鄉前三年度的稅客收入的平均數所以您看一下這個是高雄市桃園區也就是合併的園鄉區\n\n03:22.651 --> 03:50.663\n他改制前後他的收入是差不多的以桃園區來講大約是15億可是一般的原住民鄉我們可以看到他可以高達這幾年這個是泰安鄉可以多達20億那他是浮動的他有一些紅包可以收所以在這邊想要請教主計長如果說從預算考核的角度那麼稅客收入我們可以看\n\n03:52.264 --> 04:12.603\n這個稅客的收入就是是否叫補助收入對地方自治財政健全比較有幫助對的確的這個也是我們大家努力的方向說財化法要讓地方有更多的稅客收入不過我剛才逼近跟委員報告一下我可能要跟委員合對一下\n\n04:14.625 --> 04:31.022\n你那個金額在前面的那個17.6億恐怕是小數點飆有飆的我們再跟您辦公室合對謝謝那就請再到我的辦公室給我一些正確的收據但是我現在就是要講\n\n04:32.003 --> 04:50.503\n既然我前面我問了你的態度是支持肯定的那我現在問你也是支持肯定的所以我希望才化法第三條在我們的這個第四款增加一下直轄市園民區好嗎\n\n04:51.604 --> 05:18.243\n對可是他有一些指標那些指標在園民區在分配的時候就不一定能夠分配到稅客我必須這麼講對我們知道我們知道有這個不確定因素但是至少目前合併的園鄉區他們有這個困擾所以我希望是說這一次修法的時候我們會希望把第三條第四款來增加直轄市園民區\n\n05:20.017 --> 05:43.064\n你跟他的回答是贊同的嗎?對,對,贊同的那我必須說明一下因為地方的稅大部分都是財產稅啦那個財產稅的話如果要增加收入那可能會有人反對說他那個財產價值又沒有增加那主計長可不可以這樣就是有機會可以到辦公室嗎?我們來討論畢竟我們也要提出修法版本嘛對不對謝謝主計長那接下來請審計長請審計長\n\n05:53.621 --> 06:10.784\n委員好好審計長您好根據審計部的這個非營業基金審核報告他常常提到原民會有一個原住民族綜合發展基金的問題那最常被詬病的就是這個原發基金呢\n\n06:11.345 --> 06:27.253\n他的預放比率是長年偏高確實因為最高我們一般的銀行預放比0.17%但是我們的原發基金他最高可以從20%那現在大概也有8%確實是太高了\n\n06:30.034 --> 06:50.804\n那你們的解釋是說有待從根本協助提升借貸戶的金融素養及財務管理能力所以我們也看到金管會或者是圓明會這些年也是去做了很多的一個教育宣導或者是普惠金融的一些政策那我想要請教一下沈記長\n\n06:51.804 --> 07:05.871\n您自己個人認為這個原住民族綜合發展基金預放比過高應該是誰的問題是原民會問題比較多還是原住民族原住民個人的問題比較多還是整個社會結構性的問題比較多\n\n07:08.035 --> 07:14.058\n我比較偏向委員後面那個問題因為嚴明我們一定要幫他啦所以能夠盡量協助他們因為金融研訓院他2020年的一個報告他有提出財務脆弱的六大族群那其中就有新住民原住民也就是說認為他們的財力是相對較弱的\n\n07:34.747 --> 07:55.994\n底抗力也是處於極低的比例所以他的底抗力包括自身的財力所以這些方面還有金融服務的取得等等我想審計長你應該比我都更清楚那他第二個問題就是說他還會遇到像他經濟因素他就有借貸需求但是元寶地\n\n07:56.574 --> 08:10.679\n我們的銀行通常都不願意承貸放貸然後求助財政部也沒有結果找正規金融機構求貸無門就找地下管道最後連土地都沒有了所以我想這個結構的問題那第三個就是說\n\n08:13.340 --> 08:41.211\n我們也看到原發基金他其實是有連年連續短促的一個問題所以這個也是一個很麻煩的問題那另外就是說我們有所謂的進法補償金那當然謝謝主計長、主計處就是在我們質詢之下呢我看到就是去年的預算已經在今年開始放入公務預算而且是足額可是呢過去多年來都不足額而且是從重發基金的錢去處理\n\n08:42.592 --> 09:02.624\n那現在雖然補以去年來講雖然你補到21億但是他還是有一些短處的問題所以那個原發基金也是連年下降那我現在就是想要請教一下就是關於這個部分我們審計單位因為我們的原發基金他其實收入很有限\n\n09:03.504 --> 09:18.135\n但是呢我們看到他的用途還包括他要去做事業貸款之外還有很多包括要做我們的建構修繕還要去蓋社宅還要去做溫泉開發等等等很多\n\n09:18.755 --> 09:38.754\n那他錢就沒有很多啊然後也賺不了錢啊那怎麼辦呢所以這個部分我就是想要請教審計長因為這個原發基金他有連年短數貸款預放比過高等等等的問題需要做跨部會的檢討改進對不對這應該不是只有要問責原民會吧\n\n09:40.154 --> 09:55.517\n所以我希望審計部對於這個部分這個議題可不可以提出一個專案的審計報告給我的辦公室可以因為這個是這樣我們會我們的基本審核會把所有的基金看看它的盈餘怎麼樣\n\n10:01.779 --> 10:15.343\n是但是他的收入是有限的固定金還不多但是要做的事情很多但是我們都期待他錢越來越多啊因為要做的事很多所以幫我們跨部會來想辦法好不好先把脈診斷嘛給我們解方\n\n10:17.603 --> 10:19.244\n下一位質詢請李坤臣李委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":20.185,"text":"主計長您好請教主計長您覺得補助收入跟稅客收入對政府機關而言哪一種比較好會比較期待哪一種收入從中央的一個觀點"},{"start":21.186,"end":37.875,"text":"﹗"},{"start":39.35,"end":63.784,"text":"主計長您幾乎已經是把我想要問的態度已經講出來了事實上根據我們的預算法我們的總預算案應該要在快進年度開始的一個月前也就是11月底前要由立法院議決可是我們看到資料過去的14年立法院從來沒有在法定期限內完成三讀通常都會到12月"},{"start":65.345,"end":90.227,"text":"又或者到一月快進年度開始那地方的議會預算三讀也是這樣常常因為議事的一個繁雜而延宕所以通常會拖到一月甚至是二月才通過那為什麼我這樣子關心這個問題主計長請您看一下如果說有一些的原住民鄉他因為六都的關係合併"},{"start":92.469,"end":99.786,"text":"所以以高雄市的這個桃園區公所來看他在縣市合併之前"},{"start":100.919,"end":121.946,"text":"他的稅入預算大約是17億可是呢他曾經一度失去公法人的地位4年之後2014年又恢復他的原住民區的一個公法人那他的稅入預算回來也是一樣17億可是我們看一下的結構他的稅購收入從過去合併前的70%"},{"start":126.508,"end":143.99,"text":"到現在是變成零幾乎百分之八十都要靠一般性的補助收入所以您剛才講的話就是地方的新生那為什麼會這樣他其實是因為地質法那時候修的時候他是寫"},{"start":144.791,"end":165.96,"text":"山地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依下列因素予以設算補助並維持改制前各山地相統籌分配的財源水準那也就是說他等中央政府的統籌分配稅款到縣市政府之後他又要等"},{"start":166.78,"end":182.316,"text":"然後到他的一個上級政府到鄉鎮公所那有時候財政部呢他有抄收有紅包那他也是直接撥給縣市政府可是他們就不一定拿得到所以現在的一個狀況還有第二個狀況"},{"start":184.418,"end":200.57,"text":"他的地制法這個83-7他說改制前各該山地鄉前三年度的稅客收入的平均數所以您看一下這個是高雄市桃園區也就是合併的園鄉區"},{"start":202.651,"end":230.663,"text":"他改制前後他的收入是差不多的以桃園區來講大約是15億可是一般的原住民鄉我們可以看到他可以高達這幾年這個是泰安鄉可以多達20億那他是浮動的他有一些紅包可以收所以在這邊想要請教主計長如果說從預算考核的角度那麼稅客收入我們可以看"},{"start":232.264,"end":252.603,"text":"這個稅客的收入就是是否叫補助收入對地方自治財政健全比較有幫助對的確的這個也是我們大家努力的方向說財化法要讓地方有更多的稅客收入不過我剛才逼近跟委員報告一下我可能要跟委員合對一下"},{"start":254.625,"end":271.022,"text":"你那個金額在前面的那個17.6億恐怕是小數點飆有飆的我們再跟您辦公室合對謝謝那就請再到我的辦公室給我一些正確的收據但是我現在就是要講"},{"start":272.003,"end":290.503,"text":"既然我前面我問了你的態度是支持肯定的那我現在問你也是支持肯定的所以我希望才化法第三條在我們的這個第四款增加一下直轄市園民區好嗎"},{"start":291.604,"end":318.243,"text":"對可是他有一些指標那些指標在園民區在分配的時候就不一定能夠分配到稅客我必須這麼講對我們知道我們知道有這個不確定因素但是至少目前合併的園鄉區他們有這個困擾所以我希望是說這一次修法的時候我們會希望把第三條第四款來增加直轄市園民區"},{"start":320.017,"end":343.064,"text":"你跟他的回答是贊同的嗎?對,對,贊同的那我必須說明一下因為地方的稅大部分都是財產稅啦那個財產稅的話如果要增加收入那可能會有人反對說他那個財產價值又沒有增加那主計長可不可以這樣就是有機會可以到辦公室嗎?我們來討論畢竟我們也要提出修法版本嘛對不對謝謝主計長那接下來請審計長請審計長"},{"start":353.621,"end":370.784,"text":"委員好好審計長您好根據審計部的這個非營業基金審核報告他常常提到原民會有一個原住民族綜合發展基金的問題那最常被詬病的就是這個原發基金呢"},{"start":371.345,"end":387.253,"text":"他的預放比率是長年偏高確實因為最高我們一般的銀行預放比0.17%但是我們的原發基金他最高可以從20%那現在大概也有8%確實是太高了"},{"start":390.034,"end":410.804,"text":"那你們的解釋是說有待從根本協助提升借貸戶的金融素養及財務管理能力所以我們也看到金管會或者是圓明會這些年也是去做了很多的一個教育宣導或者是普惠金融的一些政策那我想要請教一下沈記長"},{"start":411.804,"end":425.871,"text":"您自己個人認為這個原住民族綜合發展基金預放比過高應該是誰的問題是原民會問題比較多還是原住民族原住民個人的問題比較多還是整個社會結構性的問題比較多"},{"start":428.035,"end":434.058,"text":"我比較偏向委員後面那個問題因為嚴明我們一定要幫他啦所以能夠盡量協助他們因為金融研訓院他2020年的一個報告他有提出財務脆弱的六大族群那其中就有新住民原住民也就是說認為他們的財力是相對較弱的"},{"start":454.747,"end":475.994,"text":"底抗力也是處於極低的比例所以他的底抗力包括自身的財力所以這些方面還有金融服務的取得等等我想審計長你應該比我都更清楚那他第二個問題就是說他還會遇到像他經濟因素他就有借貸需求但是元寶地"},{"start":476.574,"end":490.679,"text":"我們的銀行通常都不願意承貸放貸然後求助財政部也沒有結果找正規金融機構求貸無門就找地下管道最後連土地都沒有了所以我想這個結構的問題那第三個就是說"},{"start":493.34,"end":521.211,"text":"我們也看到原發基金他其實是有連年連續短促的一個問題所以這個也是一個很麻煩的問題那另外就是說我們有所謂的進法補償金那當然謝謝主計長、主計處就是在我們質詢之下呢我看到就是去年的預算已經在今年開始放入公務預算而且是足額可是呢過去多年來都不足額而且是從重發基金的錢去處理"},{"start":522.592,"end":542.624,"text":"那現在雖然補以去年來講雖然你補到21億但是他還是有一些短處的問題所以那個原發基金也是連年下降那我現在就是想要請教一下就是關於這個部分我們審計單位因為我們的原發基金他其實收入很有限"},{"start":543.504,"end":558.135,"text":"但是呢我們看到他的用途還包括他要去做事業貸款之外還有很多包括要做我們的建構修繕還要去蓋社宅還要去做溫泉開發等等等很多"},{"start":558.755,"end":578.754,"text":"那他錢就沒有很多啊然後也賺不了錢啊那怎麼辦呢所以這個部分我就是想要請教審計長因為這個原發基金他有連年短數貸款預放比過高等等等的問題需要做跨部會的檢討改進對不對這應該不是只有要問責原民會吧"},{"start":580.154,"end":595.517,"text":"所以我希望審計部對於這個部分這個議題可不可以提出一個專案的審計報告給我的辦公室可以因為這個是這樣我們會我們的基本審核會把所有的基金看看它的盈餘怎麼樣"},{"start":601.779,"end":615.343,"text":"是但是他的收入是有限的固定金還不多但是要做的事情很多但是我們都期待他錢越來越多啊因為要做的事很多所以幫我們跨部會來想辦法好不好先把脈診斷嘛給我們解方"},{"start":617.603,"end":619.244,"text":"下一位質詢請李坤臣李委員"},{"start":650.435,"end":651.049,"text":"謝謝!"}]}}}}