{"id":149793,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b690341a7fbda99891648b77cff0621b76d91f8ba9b0039caa7a60385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:25:05 - 11:36:20","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-3"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":675,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:36:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:25:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時25分）謝謝主席，請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好，辛苦了！本席請教一下，我看到今天的報紙中有提到，美國年度預算首度獨列臺灣，美國拜登政府2025年度預算，其中有一筆預算是1億美元，這是對於臺灣安全的歷史性投資，這也是一個國際友臺制中的高度政治意義。可是就預算法來探討，這種編列方式的法律效果有什麼差異，也就是單獨編列這筆預算，過去是沒有的，按照主計處來講的話，這筆預算單獨列出來有沒有什麼特別意義在？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，詳細的細節我不曉得，它到底是給我們錢，還是給我們物資，它可能是一個……"],["李委員坤城：不管是錢還是物資，因為過去都沒有單獨編列一筆預算是特別針對臺灣的，我的意思是，像我們的政府有特別編列一筆預算要做什麼事情，等於是現在拜登政府特別編列了1億要協助臺灣安全，這個預算編列上面有沒有什麼特殊的意義在？"],["朱主計長澤民：這表示美國政府對臺灣堅決的支持，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：它的政治意義就是堅決支持臺灣。"],["朱主計長澤民：而且它既然有做這個事情，就表示它嚴格執行臺灣關係法。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是要請教，因為它有特別把它單獨編列，之前可能是跟其他印太地區編在一起，有特別把它提出來，只是就這種編列方式在預算法上的意義來請教主計長，剛剛主計長也說這個是有特別的法律關係，有其效益在。","本席再請教，112年全國賦稅收入又創歷史新高，年增兩千餘億元，高出預算數3,900億元，連續第3年優於預期，但是超收不等於國庫的年度賸餘，因為還要經過審計部的決算程序，產生歲計賸餘，透過預算法的程序，才可以編列使用。本席請教112年的歲計賸餘，主計處初步估計剩下多少、有沒有特別使用的規劃方向？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我們初步估計大概剩下1,500億，這1,500億的話……"],["李委員坤城：後來就剩下1,500億左右而已？"],["朱主計長澤民：所謂的三千九百多億是包括地方政府，另外，我們的錢在法令上有規定要提多少作為償債基金償債之用，而且我們的特別預算也有借錢，所以把那些扣掉以後大概只剩下1,500億，我不能有歲計賸餘，然後又去跟銀行借錢。"],["李委員坤城：所以真正可以使用的就是1,500億就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有什麼特殊的用途呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們任何的……"],["李委員坤城：比如像經濟部就希望台電的虧損，政府可以來補貼。"],["朱主計長澤民：經濟部有他們的想法，他們的想法如果經過行政院以及院長同意，院會通過以後就要編列預算，編列預算要送到大院通過才能使用。"],["李委員坤城：主計長的想法呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我必須說明主計總處只是就錢財用的合不合法，至於政策性要怎麼處理，我們不能夠用錢去管它的政策，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：本席再請教主計長，物價指數上漲率2%，主計長覺得這個數字看起來怎麼樣？"],["朱主計長澤民：我覺得2%上下大家不要過於悲觀或樂觀，因為一般物價過分的負成長或是接近零的話，都可能有通貨緊縮的疑慮，像現在的中國大陸。"],["李委員坤城：2%算是溫和，還是已經到了警戒？"],["朱主計長澤民：溫和、溫和、溫和、溫和、溫和、溫和、溫和。"],["李委員坤城：主計長講了好多次溫和，還沒有超過警戒就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：因為在110年之前都沒有超過2%，111年、112年連續2年超過，在過年這段時間，今年2月又達到3.08%，再加上台電的電價有可能調整，所以在野黨也有批評。國發會主委龔明鑫也說電價漲了10%，大概會推升CPI上漲0.2到0.3，全年CPI增加大概會達到2%以上，請教主計長的看法？"],["朱主計長澤民：我尊重他的說法，至於0.2到0.3則是要看轉嫁的程度，但是轉嫁的程度沒有事實資料，有些東西雖然成本高，企業會不會漲價也不一定。另外，可能因為生產力的提高而不會漲價，像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的。"],["李委員坤城：主計長，你能預測一下今年度的CPI大概會增加多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：大概是2%左右。"],["李委員坤城：就算電價有調漲大概也是落在2%左右？"],["朱主計長澤民：2%上下。"],["李委員坤城：有可能是在下嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：就要看未來的外食費、未來的水果及租金是不是走向平穩。"],["李委員坤城：但是主計長認為如果在2%左右的增長率，也算是溫和就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：不必過於悲觀啦！"],["李委員坤城：好，本席再請教主計長關於閒置資金的問題，過去在臺灣儲蓄是美德，我們的超額儲蓄每年都創新高，2024年預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆，超額儲蓄率達到15.46%，每年大概都有增加。雖然儲蓄是美德，但是超額儲蓄好嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：超額儲蓄，對我們來講儲蓄的錢一定要利用，當然實質的投資是一個方向，但是沒有做實質的投資，像我們做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助，就像央行將外匯在國外進行操作，每年賺取外匯，就是外國人的錢，對國內國庫的收入能夠貢獻2,000億，這未嘗不是壞事，所以投資不一定要做實質投資，有些金融投資也是有用的。"],["李委員坤城：但是我看這個數字，從2021年開始我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有三兆以上。"],["朱主計長澤民：大概三兆多。"],["李委員坤城：對，都三兆多。我們是希望透過政策引導，能夠把民間的投資放在公共建設上，但是就我看來，好像這幾年在這部分政府的政策工具是沒有做到，不然民間的超額儲蓄都還是有到三兆以上，每年都是三兆以上。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為他們進行投資，一定是讓未來的營業額可以增加，如果那個投資未來沒有帶動營業額的增加，那個投資可能就是一個浪費，所以我們必須考慮要做什麼投資，而且是不是一定要做實質投資，這個就不一定，像新加坡也是做很多金融投資，瑞士也都是有很高的超額儲蓄，但是他們有做實質投資也有做金融投資。"],["李委員坤城：我們有嗎？我們在這方面有做到嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們是金融投資比較少，所以我們金融市場的發展對國外的投資還是很重要。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我認為不管是你講的金融投資，或者實際上具體的建設投資，看起來是沒有做到啦！不然不會說每年超額儲蓄都超過三兆。剛剛有提到每一年我們的稅收都會超收，針對去年度超收的四大項目，例如綜所稅也超收、營業稅也超收、證交稅也超收、營業所得稅也超收，請主計處能不能設計一個模式，過去我們可能就經濟成長率來估計預算數，但是這幾年下來跟實際徵收數都有落差，實際上徵收的都比較多，是不是能夠根據剛剛本席所提到的四大稅收項目，譬如在綜合所得稅過去是看經濟成長率，現在可以看基本工資調整及政策利率調升；在營業稅方面，我們看民間消費率的成長；在營業交易稅方面，當然是維持日均成交值，選擇區間不同；在營利事業所得稅方面，我們來看出口及工業的生產指數。你們可以參考的指數很多，不是只有參考經濟成長率，這樣子所做出來的模型、算出來的預算數是不是會比較準確？也不會是每年實際上徵收的數額超過預算數。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員的建議我完全同意，不過我必須跟委員報告一下，財政部目前也正在委託專家學者在做這方面的研究。"],["李委員坤城：我希望不要每年都是超收啦！超收固然是好事，但也代表財政部在編列預算時還不夠詳實，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。"],["主席：請陳玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-3","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","陳玉珍","王世堅","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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\"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 208.999, \"end\": 210.34, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 210.34, \"end\": 210.48, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 210.48, \"end\": 210.58, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 210.58, \"end\": 210.64, \"score\": 0.579}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 210.64, \"end\": 210.76, \"score\": 0.62}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 210.76, \"end\": 211.0, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 211.0, \"end\": 211.2, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"殊\", \"start\": 211.2, \"end\": 211.36, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 211.36, \"end\": 211.52, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 211.52, \"end\": 211.66, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 211.66, \"end\": 211.901, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 211.901, \"end\": 212.141, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"用\", 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{\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,614 --> 00:00:27,072\n本期請教一下看到今天的報紙提到美國的年度預算首度獨立台灣拜登政府在2025年的年度預算其中有一筆預算是1億美元這是對於台灣安全的歷史性投資\n\n2\n00:00:28,213 --> 00:00:45,798\n這也是國際友台誌中的一個高度的政治意義那可是呢就預算法來探討呢這種編列方式呢它的法律效果有什麼差異就單獨編列這筆預算過去沒有的那如果按照這個主計處來講的話這筆預算單獨列出來它有沒有什麼特別意義在\n\n3\n00:00:49,056 --> 00:00:51,157\n我的意思不管是錢還是物資因為過去都沒有單獨編列\n\n4\n00:01:06,264 --> 00:01:33,655\n一筆預算特別是針對臺灣的那我的意思是說像這個如果我們的政府有特別編列一筆預算要做什麼事情那等於是像你說像現在拜登政府特別編列了一億要來這個協助臺灣的這個安全那他的這個預算編列上面他有沒有什麼特殊的意義在啦是是也是在美國政府那表示對我們臺灣堅決的支持謝謝對對就是他的政治意義就是說這個\n\n5\n00:01:35,174 --> 00:01:48,434\n堅決的堅持的臺灣所以他特別﹖而且是他一個﹖他居然有做這個事情他表示他嚴格執行臺灣關係法對對對我的意思是請教因為說因為他有特別把他編\n\n6\n00:01:49,667 --> 00:01:49,847\n本席再請教\n\n7\n00:02:11,254 --> 00:02:36,037\n一百一十二年全國負稅收入又創歷史新高年增兩千餘億元高出預算數三千九百億元連續第三年優於預期這個超收這個超收也不等於是說國庫年度剩餘應該還要經過審計部的決算程序產生這個稅計的剩餘透過預算法的程序才可以編列使用\n\n8\n00:02:36,658 --> 00:02:51,804\n那本席請教這個112年的這個稅計剩餘主計處初步估計剩下多少那有沒有特別使用的規劃的一個方向那個跟那個委員報告一下我們初步的估計大概是剩下1500億那個1500億的話我們要後來就剩下1500億左右那個所謂的3900多億\n\n9\n00:03:04,008 --> 00:03:32,541\n是包括地方政府另外一個我們的那個錢在法律上他有規定要提多少作為場債的一個資用而且我們特別預算也有借錢所以把那個扣掉以後我們大概只剩下1500億我不能夠說我有數據剩餘然後我又去跟銀行借錢所以真正可以使用的就是1500億對不對對對對那有沒有什麼特殊的使用的用途勒\n\n10\n00:03:33,201 --> 00:03:33,662\n那主計長的想法勒?\n\n11\n00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:56,401\n那本期再請教主計長物價指數上漲率2%那這個數字主計長看起來覺得怎麼樣\n\n12\n00:04:20,395 --> 00:04:42,481\n那個是我覺得百分之二上下大家不要過於說有悲觀或者是樂觀因為一般物價過分的負成長或者是接近零的話都有可能有那個通貨緊縮的疑慮像現在中國大陸那百分之二是算是溫和還是已經到了警戒溫和溫和溫和溫和溫和\n\n13\n00:04:44,522 --> 00:04:44,722\n111、112年連續兩年超過\n\n14\n00:04:58,530 --> 00:05:12,883\n那在過年這段時間今年的2月又達到這個百分之3.08那加上臺電的電價有可能調整那所以在野黨也有在批評那這個國發會主委苟明星他也說如果這個電價漲了百分之10\n\n15\n00:05:15,325 --> 00:05:40,087\n推升CPI大概會上漲0.2到0.3全年的CPI這個增加大概會達到2%以上那請教一下主計長的看法我尊重他的說法至於說0.2到0.3那要看那個轉嫁的程度那個轉嫁的程度的話因為沒有事實資料因為有些東西那個雖然說他成本高\n\n16\n00:05:40,987 --> 00:06:09,539\n續約會不會漲價也不一定另外一個他可能因為生產力的提高就不會漲價像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的外銷物品那主計長這個你再預測一下今年年度的CPI大概是會多少我大概是大概是百分之二左右的謝謝就算電價有調漲也大概是落在百分之二左右百分之二上下百分之二上下有可能再下嗎\n\n17\n00:06:10,407 --> 00:06:11,828\n但是就是主計長認為說如果在2%左右增長率也算是溫和就對了\n\n18\n00:06:31,459 --> 00:06:52,816\n本期再請教主計長關於這個閒置資金的問題就是台灣可能這個過去這個儲蓄是美德這個我們的超額儲蓄這個每年都創新高2024年預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆然後呢超額儲蓄率是達到15.46%那大概每年都有增加\n\n19\n00:06:55,077 --> 00:07:19,731\n除蓄是美德,但是超額除蓄好嗎?除蓄的錢一定要利用利用的話當然是說要做實質的投資是一個方向但沒有做實質的投資的話我們像做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助就像我們央行\n\n20\n00:07:20,611 --> 00:07:21,592\n但是我看這個數字就是說從2021年開始\n\n21\n00:07:49,733 --> 00:08:16,716\n我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有3兆以上對都3兆多那這個那主計長認為說我們是希望說透過政策引導能夠把這個民間的這個投資在一些公共建設上面但是我看來好像這幾年這個這部分政府的這個政策工具是沒有做到啦不然這個民間的這個超額儲蓄都還是有到這個3兆以上每年都是3兆以上\n\n22\n00:08:17,757 --> 00:08:36,154\n對因為他做投資他一定要未來說這個營業可以增加如果說他的那個投資未來沒有帶動營業的增加營業物的增加那個投資可能就是一個浪費所以說要做怎麼投資我們必須考慮而且\n\n23\n00:08:38,106 --> 00:09:07,075\n是不是一定要做實質投資就不一定像新加坡也是做很多金融投資瑞士也有都是有很高的超核儲蓄但是他們有做實質投資也有那我們有嗎我們在這方面有做到嗎我們這邊是那個金融投資比較少所以我們金融市場的發展還是很很重要對國外的一個投資還是很重要我是認為就是說這個我們不管是你講的金融投資或者實際上的這一個\n\n24\n00:09:07,697 --> 00:09:33,748\n具體的這個建設投資這個看起來是沒有做到：不然不會說每年這個超額儲蓄都超過3兆那剛剛有提到說我們這個每一年我們的稅收都是會超收那是不是請這個主計處這邊在針對去年度的這個超收的四大項目比如說政所稅也超收營業稅也超收政交稅也超收營業所的稅也超收\n\n25\n00:09:35,509 --> 00:09:35,889\n主席主席\n\n26\n00:09:55,658 --> 00:09:55,899\n李坤城議員李坤城議員\n\n27\n00:10:15,382 --> 00:10:34,649\n銀翼事業所得稅這方面我們來看這個出口還有工業生產指數就是說你們的這個可以參考的這個指數很多不是只有參考這個一個經濟成長率那這樣子所做出來的模型算出來的這個預算數是不是會比較準確也不會說每年都這個我們的這個預算數就實際上徵收的這個數額會超過這個預算數\n\n28\n00:10:39,130 --> 00:11:00,421\n委員的建議我完全同意不過我必須跟委員報告一下財政部目前也正在委託專家水準在做這方面的研究我是希望說這個不要每年都是抄收啦抄收雖然是好事也代表說我們財政部在這個編列預算的時候這個還不夠詳實好不好謝謝主席現在請陳玉珍陳委員\n\n29\n00:11:13,858 --> 00:11:14,120\n主席先請審計長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5614\t27072\t本期請教一下看到今天的報紙提到美國的年度預算首度獨立台灣拜登政府在2025年的年度預算其中有一筆預算是1億美元這是對於台灣安全的歷史性投資\n28213\t45798\t這也是國際友台誌中的一個高度的政治意義那可是呢就預算法來探討呢這種編列方式呢它的法律效果有什麼差異就單獨編列這筆預算過去沒有的那如果按照這個主計處來講的話這筆預算單獨列出來它有沒有什麼特別意義在\n49056\t51157\t我的意思不管是錢還是物資因為過去都沒有單獨編列\n66264\t93655\t一筆預算特別是針對臺灣的那我的意思是說像這個如果我們的政府有特別編列一筆預算要做什麼事情那等於是像你說像現在拜登政府特別編列了一億要來這個協助臺灣的這個安全那他的這個預算編列上面他有沒有什麼特殊的意義在啦是是也是在美國政府那表示對我們臺灣堅決的支持謝謝對對就是他的政治意義就是說這個\n95174\t108434\t堅決的堅持的臺灣所以他特別﹖而且是他一個﹖他居然有做這個事情他表示他嚴格執行臺灣關係法對對對我的意思是請教因為說因為他有特別把他編\n109667\t109847\t本席再請教\n131254\t156037\t一百一十二年全國負稅收入又創歷史新高年增兩千餘億元高出預算數三千九百億元連續第三年優於預期這個超收這個超收也不等於是說國庫年度剩餘應該還要經過審計部的決算程序產生這個稅計的剩餘透過預算法的程序才可以編列使用\n156658\t171804\t那本席請教這個112年的這個稅計剩餘主計處初步估計剩下多少那有沒有特別使用的規劃的一個方向那個跟那個委員報告一下我們初步的估計大概是剩下1500億那個1500億的話我們要後來就剩下1500億左右那個所謂的3900多億\n184008\t212541\t是包括地方政府另外一個我們的那個錢在法律上他有規定要提多少作為場債的一個資用而且我們特別預算也有借錢所以把那個扣掉以後我們大概只剩下1500億我不能夠說我有數據剩餘然後我又去跟銀行借錢所以真正可以使用的就是1500億對不對對對對那有沒有什麼特殊的使用的用途勒\n213201\t213662\t那主計長的想法勒?\n234500\t236401\t那本期再請教主計長物價指數上漲率2%那這個數字主計長看起來覺得怎麼樣\n260395\t282481\t那個是我覺得百分之二上下大家不要過於說有悲觀或者是樂觀因為一般物價過分的負成長或者是接近零的話都有可能有那個通貨緊縮的疑慮像現在中國大陸那百分之二是算是溫和還是已經到了警戒溫和溫和溫和溫和溫和\n284522\t284722\t111、112年連續兩年超過\n298530\t312883\t那在過年這段時間今年的2月又達到這個百分之3.08那加上臺電的電價有可能調整那所以在野黨也有在批評那這個國發會主委苟明星他也說如果這個電價漲了百分之10\n315325\t340087\t推升CPI大概會上漲0.2到0.3全年的CPI這個增加大概會達到2%以上那請教一下主計長的看法我尊重他的說法至於說0.2到0.3那要看那個轉嫁的程度那個轉嫁的程度的話因為沒有事實資料因為有些東西那個雖然說他成本高\n340987\t369539\t續約會不會漲價也不一定另外一個他可能因為生產力的提高就不會漲價像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的外銷物品那主計長這個你再預測一下今年年度的CPI大概是會多少我大概是大概是百分之二左右的謝謝就算電價有調漲也大概是落在百分之二左右百分之二上下百分之二上下有可能再下嗎\n370407\t371828\t但是就是主計長認為說如果在2%左右增長率也算是溫和就對了\n391459\t412816\t本期再請教主計長關於這個閒置資金的問題就是台灣可能這個過去這個儲蓄是美德這個我們的超額儲蓄這個每年都創新高2024年預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆然後呢超額儲蓄率是達到15.46%那大概每年都有增加\n415077\t439731\t除蓄是美德,但是超額除蓄好嗎?除蓄的錢一定要利用利用的話當然是說要做實質的投資是一個方向但沒有做實質的投資的話我們像做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助就像我們央行\n440611\t441592\t但是我看這個數字就是說從2021年開始\n469733\t496716\t我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有3兆以上對都3兆多那這個那主計長認為說我們是希望說透過政策引導能夠把這個民間的這個投資在一些公共建設上面但是我看來好像這幾年這個這部分政府的這個政策工具是沒有做到啦不然這個民間的這個超額儲蓄都還是有到這個3兆以上每年都是3兆以上\n497757\t516154\t對因為他做投資他一定要未來說這個營業可以增加如果說他的那個投資未來沒有帶動營業的增加營業物的增加那個投資可能就是一個浪費所以說要做怎麼投資我們必須考慮而且\n518106\t547075\t是不是一定要做實質投資就不一定像新加坡也是做很多金融投資瑞士也有都是有很高的超核儲蓄但是他們有做實質投資也有那我們有嗎我們在這方面有做到嗎我們這邊是那個金融投資比較少所以我們金融市場的發展還是很很重要對國外的一個投資還是很重要我是認為就是說這個我們不管是你講的金融投資或者實際上的這一個\n547697\t573748\t具體的這個建設投資這個看起來是沒有做到：不然不會說每年這個超額儲蓄都超過3兆那剛剛有提到說我們這個每一年我們的稅收都是會超收那是不是請這個主計處這邊在針對去年度的這個超收的四大項目比如說政所稅也超收營業稅也超收政交稅也超收營業所的稅也超收\n575509\t575889\t主席主席\n595658\t595899\t李坤城議員李坤城議員\n615382\t634649\t銀翼事業所得稅這方面我們來看這個出口還有工業生產指數就是說你們的這個可以參考的這個指數很多不是只有參考這個一個經濟成長率那這樣子所做出來的模型算出來的這個預算數是不是會比較準確也不會說每年都這個我們的這個預算數就實際上徵收的這個數額會超過這個預算數\n639130\t660421\t委員的建議我完全同意不過我必須跟委員報告一下財政部目前也正在委託專家水準在做這方面的研究我是希望說這個不要每年都是抄收啦抄收雖然是好事也代表說我們財政部在這個編列預算的時候這個還不夠詳實好不好謝謝主席現在請陳玉珍陳委員\n673858\t674120\t主席先請審計長\n","txt":"本期請教一下看到今天的報紙提到美國的年度預算首度獨立台灣拜登政府在2025年的年度預算其中有一筆預算是1億美元這是對於台灣安全的歷史性投資\n這也是國際友台誌中的一個高度的政治意義那可是呢就預算法來探討呢這種編列方式呢它的法律效果有什麼差異就單獨編列這筆預算過去沒有的那如果按照這個主計處來講的話這筆預算單獨列出來它有沒有什麼特別意義在\n我的意思不管是錢還是物資因為過去都沒有單獨編列\n一筆預算特別是針對臺灣的那我的意思是說像這個如果我們的政府有特別編列一筆預算要做什麼事情那等於是像你說像現在拜登政府特別編列了一億要來這個協助臺灣的這個安全那他的這個預算編列上面他有沒有什麼特殊的意義在啦是是也是在美國政府那表示對我們臺灣堅決的支持謝謝對對就是他的政治意義就是說這個\n堅決的堅持的臺灣所以他特別﹖而且是他一個﹖他居然有做這個事情他表示他嚴格執行臺灣關係法對對對我的意思是請教因為說因為他有特別把他編\n本席再請教\n一百一十二年全國負稅收入又創歷史新高年增兩千餘億元高出預算數三千九百億元連續第三年優於預期這個超收這個超收也不等於是說國庫年度剩餘應該還要經過審計部的決算程序產生這個稅計的剩餘透過預算法的程序才可以編列使用\n那本席請教這個112年的這個稅計剩餘主計處初步估計剩下多少那有沒有特別使用的規劃的一個方向那個跟那個委員報告一下我們初步的估計大概是剩下1500億那個1500億的話我們要後來就剩下1500億左右那個所謂的3900多億\n是包括地方政府另外一個我們的那個錢在法律上他有規定要提多少作為場債的一個資用而且我們特別預算也有借錢所以把那個扣掉以後我們大概只剩下1500億我不能夠說我有數據剩餘然後我又去跟銀行借錢所以真正可以使用的就是1500億對不對對對對那有沒有什麼特殊的使用的用途勒\n那主計長的想法勒?\n那本期再請教主計長物價指數上漲率2%那這個數字主計長看起來覺得怎麼樣\n那個是我覺得百分之二上下大家不要過於說有悲觀或者是樂觀因為一般物價過分的負成長或者是接近零的話都有可能有那個通貨緊縮的疑慮像現在中國大陸那百分之二是算是溫和還是已經到了警戒溫和溫和溫和溫和溫和\n111、112年連續兩年超過\n那在過年這段時間今年的2月又達到這個百分之3.08那加上臺電的電價有可能調整那所以在野黨也有在批評那這個國發會主委苟明星他也說如果這個電價漲了百分之10\n推升CPI大概會上漲0.2到0.3全年的CPI這個增加大概會達到2%以上那請教一下主計長的看法我尊重他的說法至於說0.2到0.3那要看那個轉嫁的程度那個轉嫁的程度的話因為沒有事實資料因為有些東西那個雖然說他成本高\n續約會不會漲價也不一定另外一個他可能因為生產力的提高就不會漲價像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的外銷物品那主計長這個你再預測一下今年年度的CPI大概是會多少我大概是大概是百分之二左右的謝謝就算電價有調漲也大概是落在百分之二左右百分之二上下百分之二上下有可能再下嗎\n但是就是主計長認為說如果在2%左右增長率也算是溫和就對了\n本期再請教主計長關於這個閒置資金的問題就是台灣可能這個過去這個儲蓄是美德這個我們的超額儲蓄這個每年都創新高2024年預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆然後呢超額儲蓄率是達到15.46%那大概每年都有增加\n除蓄是美德,但是超額除蓄好嗎?除蓄的錢一定要利用利用的話當然是說要做實質的投資是一個方向但沒有做實質的投資的話我們像做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助就像我們央行\n但是我看這個數字就是說從2021年開始\n我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有3兆以上對都3兆多那這個那主計長認為說我們是希望說透過政策引導能夠把這個民間的這個投資在一些公共建設上面但是我看來好像這幾年這個這部分政府的這個政策工具是沒有做到啦不然這個民間的這個超額儲蓄都還是有到這個3兆以上每年都是3兆以上\n對因為他做投資他一定要未來說這個營業可以增加如果說他的那個投資未來沒有帶動營業的增加營業物的增加那個投資可能就是一個浪費所以說要做怎麼投資我們必須考慮而且\n是不是一定要做實質投資就不一定像新加坡也是做很多金融投資瑞士也有都是有很高的超核儲蓄但是他們有做實質投資也有那我們有嗎我們在這方面有做到嗎我們這邊是那個金融投資比較少所以我們金融市場的發展還是很很重要對國外的一個投資還是很重要我是認為就是說這個我們不管是你講的金融投資或者實際上的這一個\n具體的這個建設投資這個看起來是沒有做到：不然不會說每年這個超額儲蓄都超過3兆那剛剛有提到說我們這個每一年我們的稅收都是會超收那是不是請這個主計處這邊在針對去年度的這個超收的四大項目比如說政所稅也超收營業稅也超收政交稅也超收營業所的稅也超收\n主席主席\n李坤城議員李坤城議員\n銀翼事業所得稅這方面我們來看這個出口還有工業生產指數就是說你們的這個可以參考的這個指數很多不是只有參考這個一個經濟成長率那這樣子所做出來的模型算出來的這個預算數是不是會比較準確也不會說每年都這個我們的這個預算數就實際上徵收的這個數額會超過這個預算數\n委員的建議我完全同意不過我必須跟委員報告一下財政部目前也正在委託專家水準在做這方面的研究我是希望說這個不要每年都是抄收啦抄收雖然是好事也代表說我們財政部在這個編列預算的時候這個還不夠詳實好不好謝謝主席現在請陳玉珍陳委員\n主席先請審計長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.614 --> 00:27.072\n本期請教一下看到今天的報紙提到美國的年度預算首度獨立台灣拜登政府在2025年的年度預算其中有一筆預算是1億美元這是對於台灣安全的歷史性投資\n\n00:28.213 --> 00:45.798\n這也是國際友台誌中的一個高度的政治意義那可是呢就預算法來探討呢這種編列方式呢它的法律效果有什麼差異就單獨編列這筆預算過去沒有的那如果按照這個主計處來講的話這筆預算單獨列出來它有沒有什麼特別意義在\n\n00:49.056 --> 00:51.157\n我的意思不管是錢還是物資因為過去都沒有單獨編列\n\n01:06.264 --> 01:33.655\n一筆預算特別是針對臺灣的那我的意思是說像這個如果我們的政府有特別編列一筆預算要做什麼事情那等於是像你說像現在拜登政府特別編列了一億要來這個協助臺灣的這個安全那他的這個預算編列上面他有沒有什麼特殊的意義在啦是是也是在美國政府那表示對我們臺灣堅決的支持謝謝對對就是他的政治意義就是說這個\n\n01:35.174 --> 01:48.434\n堅決的堅持的臺灣所以他特別﹖而且是他一個﹖他居然有做這個事情他表示他嚴格執行臺灣關係法對對對我的意思是請教因為說因為他有特別把他編\n\n01:49.667 --> 01:49.847\n本席再請教\n\n02:11.254 --> 02:36.037\n一百一十二年全國負稅收入又創歷史新高年增兩千餘億元高出預算數三千九百億元連續第三年優於預期這個超收這個超收也不等於是說國庫年度剩餘應該還要經過審計部的決算程序產生這個稅計的剩餘透過預算法的程序才可以編列使用\n\n02:36.658 --> 02:51.804\n那本席請教這個112年的這個稅計剩餘主計處初步估計剩下多少那有沒有特別使用的規劃的一個方向那個跟那個委員報告一下我們初步的估計大概是剩下1500億那個1500億的話我們要後來就剩下1500億左右那個所謂的3900多億\n\n03:04.008 --> 03:32.541\n是包括地方政府另外一個我們的那個錢在法律上他有規定要提多少作為場債的一個資用而且我們特別預算也有借錢所以把那個扣掉以後我們大概只剩下1500億我不能夠說我有數據剩餘然後我又去跟銀行借錢所以真正可以使用的就是1500億對不對對對對那有沒有什麼特殊的使用的用途勒\n\n03:33.201 --> 03:33.662\n那主計長的想法勒?\n\n03:54.500 --> 03:56.401\n那本期再請教主計長物價指數上漲率2%那這個數字主計長看起來覺得怎麼樣\n\n04:20.395 --> 04:42.481\n那個是我覺得百分之二上下大家不要過於說有悲觀或者是樂觀因為一般物價過分的負成長或者是接近零的話都有可能有那個通貨緊縮的疑慮像現在中國大陸那百分之二是算是溫和還是已經到了警戒溫和溫和溫和溫和溫和\n\n04:44.522 --> 04:44.722\n111、112年連續兩年超過\n\n04:58.530 --> 05:12.883\n那在過年這段時間今年的2月又達到這個百分之3.08那加上臺電的電價有可能調整那所以在野黨也有在批評那這個國發會主委苟明星他也說如果這個電價漲了百分之10\n\n05:15.325 --> 05:40.087\n推升CPI大概會上漲0.2到0.3全年的CPI這個增加大概會達到2%以上那請教一下主計長的看法我尊重他的說法至於說0.2到0.3那要看那個轉嫁的程度那個轉嫁的程度的話因為沒有事實資料因為有些東西那個雖然說他成本高\n\n05:40.987 --> 06:09.539\n續約會不會漲價也不一定另外一個他可能因為生產力的提高就不會漲價像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的外銷物品那主計長這個你再預測一下今年年度的CPI大概是會多少我大概是大概是百分之二左右的謝謝就算電價有調漲也大概是落在百分之二左右百分之二上下百分之二上下有可能再下嗎\n\n06:10.407 --> 06:11.828\n但是就是主計長認為說如果在2%左右增長率也算是溫和就對了\n\n06:31.459 --> 06:52.816\n本期再請教主計長關於這個閒置資金的問題就是台灣可能這個過去這個儲蓄是美德這個我們的超額儲蓄這個每年都創新高2024年預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆然後呢超額儲蓄率是達到15.46%那大概每年都有增加\n\n06:55.077 --> 07:19.731\n除蓄是美德,但是超額除蓄好嗎?除蓄的錢一定要利用利用的話當然是說要做實質的投資是一個方向但沒有做實質的投資的話我們像做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助就像我們央行\n\n07:20.611 --> 07:21.592\n但是我看這個數字就是說從2021年開始\n\n07:49.733 --> 08:16.716\n我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有3兆以上對都3兆多那這個那主計長認為說我們是希望說透過政策引導能夠把這個民間的這個投資在一些公共建設上面但是我看來好像這幾年這個這部分政府的這個政策工具是沒有做到啦不然這個民間的這個超額儲蓄都還是有到這個3兆以上每年都是3兆以上\n\n08:17.757 --> 08:36.154\n對因為他做投資他一定要未來說這個營業可以增加如果說他的那個投資未來沒有帶動營業的增加營業物的增加那個投資可能就是一個浪費所以說要做怎麼投資我們必須考慮而且\n\n08:38.106 --> 09:07.075\n是不是一定要做實質投資就不一定像新加坡也是做很多金融投資瑞士也有都是有很高的超核儲蓄但是他們有做實質投資也有那我們有嗎我們在這方面有做到嗎我們這邊是那個金融投資比較少所以我們金融市場的發展還是很很重要對國外的一個投資還是很重要我是認為就是說這個我們不管是你講的金融投資或者實際上的這一個\n\n09:07.697 --> 09:33.748\n具體的這個建設投資這個看起來是沒有做到：不然不會說每年這個超額儲蓄都超過3兆那剛剛有提到說我們這個每一年我們的稅收都是會超收那是不是請這個主計處這邊在針對去年度的這個超收的四大項目比如說政所稅也超收營業稅也超收政交稅也超收營業所的稅也超收\n\n09:35.509 --> 09:35.889\n主席主席\n\n09:55.658 --> 09:55.899\n李坤城議員李坤城議員\n\n10:15.382 --> 10:34.649\n銀翼事業所得稅這方面我們來看這個出口還有工業生產指數就是說你們的這個可以參考的這個指數很多不是只有參考這個一個經濟成長率那這樣子所做出來的模型算出來的這個預算數是不是會比較準確也不會說每年都這個我們的這個預算數就實際上徵收的這個數額會超過這個預算數\n\n10:39.130 --> 11:00.421\n委員的建議我完全同意不過我必須跟委員報告一下財政部目前也正在委託專家水準在做這方面的研究我是希望說這個不要每年都是抄收啦抄收雖然是好事也代表說我們財政部在這個編列預算的時候這個還不夠詳實好不好謝謝主席現在請陳玉珍陳委員\n\n11:13.858 --> 11:14.120\n主席先請審計長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.614,"end":27.072,"text":"本期請教一下看到今天的報紙提到美國的年度預算首度獨立台灣拜登政府在2025年的年度預算其中有一筆預算是1億美元這是對於台灣安全的歷史性投資"},{"start":28.213,"end":45.798,"text":"這也是國際友台誌中的一個高度的政治意義那可是呢就預算法來探討呢這種編列方式呢它的法律效果有什麼差異就單獨編列這筆預算過去沒有的那如果按照這個主計處來講的話這筆預算單獨列出來它有沒有什麼特別意義在"},{"start":49.056,"end":51.157,"text":"我的意思不管是錢還是物資因為過去都沒有單獨編列"},{"start":66.264,"end":93.655,"text":"一筆預算特別是針對臺灣的那我的意思是說像這個如果我們的政府有特別編列一筆預算要做什麼事情那等於是像你說像現在拜登政府特別編列了一億要來這個協助臺灣的這個安全那他的這個預算編列上面他有沒有什麼特殊的意義在啦是是也是在美國政府那表示對我們臺灣堅決的支持謝謝對對就是他的政治意義就是說這個"},{"start":95.174,"end":108.434,"text":"堅決的堅持的臺灣所以他特別﹖而且是他一個﹖他居然有做這個事情他表示他嚴格執行臺灣關係法對對對我的意思是請教因為說因為他有特別把他編"},{"start":109.667,"end":109.847,"text":"本席再請教"},{"start":131.254,"end":156.037,"text":"一百一十二年全國負稅收入又創歷史新高年增兩千餘億元高出預算數三千九百億元連續第三年優於預期這個超收這個超收也不等於是說國庫年度剩餘應該還要經過審計部的決算程序產生這個稅計的剩餘透過預算法的程序才可以編列使用"},{"start":156.658,"end":171.804,"text":"那本席請教這個112年的這個稅計剩餘主計處初步估計剩下多少那有沒有特別使用的規劃的一個方向那個跟那個委員報告一下我們初步的估計大概是剩下1500億那個1500億的話我們要後來就剩下1500億左右那個所謂的3900多億"},{"start":184.008,"end":212.541,"text":"是包括地方政府另外一個我們的那個錢在法律上他有規定要提多少作為場債的一個資用而且我們特別預算也有借錢所以把那個扣掉以後我們大概只剩下1500億我不能夠說我有數據剩餘然後我又去跟銀行借錢所以真正可以使用的就是1500億對不對對對對那有沒有什麼特殊的使用的用途勒"},{"start":213.201,"end":213.662,"text":"那主計長的想法勒?"},{"start":234.5,"end":236.401,"text":"那本期再請教主計長物價指數上漲率2%那這個數字主計長看起來覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":260.395,"end":282.481,"text":"那個是我覺得百分之二上下大家不要過於說有悲觀或者是樂觀因為一般物價過分的負成長或者是接近零的話都有可能有那個通貨緊縮的疑慮像現在中國大陸那百分之二是算是溫和還是已經到了警戒溫和溫和溫和溫和溫和"},{"start":284.522,"end":284.722,"text":"111、112年連續兩年超過"},{"start":298.53,"end":312.883,"text":"那在過年這段時間今年的2月又達到這個百分之3.08那加上臺電的電價有可能調整那所以在野黨也有在批評那這個國發會主委苟明星他也說如果這個電價漲了百分之10"},{"start":315.325,"end":340.087,"text":"推升CPI大概會上漲0.2到0.3全年的CPI這個增加大概會達到2%以上那請教一下主計長的看法我尊重他的說法至於說0.2到0.3那要看那個轉嫁的程度那個轉嫁的程度的話因為沒有事實資料因為有些東西那個雖然說他成本高"},{"start":340.987,"end":369.539,"text":"續約會不會漲價也不一定另外一個他可能因為生產力的提高就不會漲價像我們的外銷物品現在整個都是下跌的外銷物品那主計長這個你再預測一下今年年度的CPI大概是會多少我大概是大概是百分之二左右的謝謝就算電價有調漲也大概是落在百分之二左右百分之二上下百分之二上下有可能再下嗎"},{"start":370.407,"end":371.828,"text":"但是就是主計長認為說如果在2%左右增長率也算是溫和就對了"},{"start":391.459,"end":412.816,"text":"本期再請教主計長關於這個閒置資金的問題就是台灣可能這個過去這個儲蓄是美德這個我們的超額儲蓄這個每年都創新高2024年預測大概超額儲蓄會有3.84兆然後呢超額儲蓄率是達到15.46%那大概每年都有增加"},{"start":415.077,"end":439.731,"text":"除蓄是美德,但是超額除蓄好嗎?除蓄的錢一定要利用利用的話當然是說要做實質的投資是一個方向但沒有做實質的投資的話我們像做國外的金融投資也是對國內有幫助就像我們央行"},{"start":440.611,"end":441.592,"text":"但是我看這個數字就是說從2021年開始"},{"start":469.733,"end":496.716,"text":"我們超額儲蓄大概每年都有3兆以上對都3兆多那這個那主計長認為說我們是希望說透過政策引導能夠把這個民間的這個投資在一些公共建設上面但是我看來好像這幾年這個這部分政府的這個政策工具是沒有做到啦不然這個民間的這個超額儲蓄都還是有到這個3兆以上每年都是3兆以上"},{"start":497.757,"end":516.154,"text":"對因為他做投資他一定要未來說這個營業可以增加如果說他的那個投資未來沒有帶動營業的增加營業物的增加那個投資可能就是一個浪費所以說要做怎麼投資我們必須考慮而且"},{"start":518.106,"end":547.075,"text":"是不是一定要做實質投資就不一定像新加坡也是做很多金融投資瑞士也有都是有很高的超核儲蓄但是他們有做實質投資也有那我們有嗎我們在這方面有做到嗎我們這邊是那個金融投資比較少所以我們金融市場的發展還是很很重要對國外的一個投資還是很重要我是認為就是說這個我們不管是你講的金融投資或者實際上的這一個"},{"start":547.697,"end":573.748,"text":"具體的這個建設投資這個看起來是沒有做到：不然不會說每年這個超額儲蓄都超過3兆那剛剛有提到說我們這個每一年我們的稅收都是會超收那是不是請這個主計處這邊在針對去年度的這個超收的四大項目比如說政所稅也超收營業稅也超收政交稅也超收營業所的稅也超收"},{"start":575.509,"end":575.889,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":595.658,"end":595.899,"text":"李坤城議員李坤城議員"},{"start":615.382,"end":634.649,"text":"銀翼事業所得稅這方面我們來看這個出口還有工業生產指數就是說你們的這個可以參考的這個指數很多不是只有參考這個一個經濟成長率那這樣子所做出來的模型算出來的這個預算數是不是會比較準確也不會說每年都這個我們的這個預算數就實際上徵收的這個數額會超過這個預算數"},{"start":639.13,"end":660.421,"text":"委員的建議我完全同意不過我必須跟委員報告一下財政部目前也正在委託專家水準在做這方面的研究我是希望說這個不要每年都是抄收啦抄收雖然是好事也代表說我們財政部在這個編列預算的時候這個還不夠詳實好不好謝謝主席現在請陳玉珍陳委員"},{"start":673.858,"end":674.12,"text":"主席先請審計長"}]}}}}