{"id":149799,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903cf0323db758fb88c3ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a6ef73f5eace86becf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:32:03 - 11:44:40","影片長度":"00:12:37","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":757,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:44:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:32:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1073,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時32分）謝謝主席，我們麻煩考試院劉秘書長還有銓敘部的周部長。"],["主席：有請劉秘書長以及周部長。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位早安。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想先請教一個問題，大概也就是跟這一次我們的考績修正有關嘛！我自己以前都在公家機關，所以我知道同仁其實是非常在乎考績的，先請教一個問題，我想先請教劉秘書長，有關目前你掌握到的我們全國公務員的離職狀況是怎麼樣？"],["劉秘書長建忻：離職狀況，這幾年離職1年大概一萬多人，但是在這邊要說明就是離職的定義包含退休、免職等等，所以這是一個總的人數，大概一萬三吧！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我這邊有一個數字，大概就是從107年到111年，其實我們可以看得出來，您剛剛講的也沒有錯，從107年到110年其實數字是減少的，但是111年增加到1萬3,500人，增幅是高達22.84%，這是全國公務員的部分。如果不看全國公務員，我們看中央各機關的離職情況，中央各機關的離職情況我手上的數據在111年度是3,753人，也就是它的增幅也是高達22.41%。那我們剛剛看全國的增幅以111年來說是到22.84%，這個是公務員的部分，我們現在來比較一下公營事業，公營事業在同時期離職的減幅是8.85%；衛生醫療機構的離職人數增幅是8.89%；公立學校職員的離職人數是增加15.21%。我剛剛說的這些數字，跟全國的公務員比較起來，一般行政機關的離職率還是比我剛剛所說的公營事業、學校，還有衛生機構都還要高，請問一下秘書長，你們那邊有沒有掌握問題是出在哪裡？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，這個人數裡面大概有五成多的人是退休，那現在退休當然屆齡退休的比例慢慢越來越高，但這個是因為退休，所以性質就不太一樣。那辭職大概占這個人數裡差不多兩成，大概就是每年2,000上下的數字，那個是辭職的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，照您剛剛說的，你們有研究辭職的人數大概比例增加多少？"],["劉秘書長建忻：辭職人數一直都沒有超過整個公務員全體人數的1%，大概在0.68到0.96這個百分比中間。"],["吳委員宗憲：我不是說跟全體的公務員人數，我是說……"],["劉秘書長建忻：總人……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，辭職的人數比例有沒有增或減？"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果看過去5年是先減再增，有一點小幅變動，所以大概在0.68%到0.96%，大概就是1,900到二千出頭，那也跟委員報告，我們有去做一個比對的調查，五、六年前辭職的同仁，大概有三成回流到公部門，也就是說這三成人是用離職重考來轉換工作。所以我們有查過這二千多人可能過幾年就有一部分會慢慢回來，當然有一些他被民間的薪資吸走，或者是說他因為不適應公部門的角色，所以離開，當然個人因素等等，這個我們也都有調查。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，照您剛剛說的，我們先不考量他可能……我可以理解你的意思，因為我們自己也是公務員嘛！他可能第一次考試，考的分數、分發的地點不滿意，他就會回過頭來再考一次，這個也不是新鮮事嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：這我可以理解。但是我想請教一下，就像您剛剛說的，辭職的人數還是有微幅上升，我是想請教一下就是，因為我們剛有比較，不管怎麼樣，公務員的部分跟公營機關、醫院、公立學校比，還是增加很多，那在您的立場，不然我請教周部長好了，部長，在您的立場，你覺得這是不是有顯示公務員的招牌好像不是那麼吸引人？"],["周部長志宏：因為我們看這些年的趨勢其實是相對穩定，所以並沒有非常大幅度的調整。至於其他部門離職率的狀況、原因，我們會再來瞭解，相對比較之下，公務員的部分應該其實算是相對穩定的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，你們平常會去研究一下離職率比較高的一些機關狀況是怎麼樣嗎？有沒有做這樣的研究？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們去年有做了一些統計數據的分析，然後有幾個機關的確讓我們看到它們的離職人數，可能是人數，不是比例，有比較突出，這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換，如果前幾年的數據看起來，也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯，這是一個推測。"],["吳委員宗憲：跟責任制……"],["劉秘書長建忻：疫情期間。"],["吳委員宗憲：疫情。"],["劉秘書長建忻：職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高，或者重考率會比較高。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我就講個簡單例子，像我看書記官，有人考上書記官分發到桃園地檢就流眼淚，然後就不報到，明年再考。所以有一些機關確實是因為工作量的關係，大家就是連報到都不想報到，所以我才會說，如果貴部或是貴院發現有一些機關的辭職率特別高的話，也要稍微去看一下他們的工作是不是有出什麼狀況，程序上面是不是有可以更簡化精進的地方，這個可能再麻煩，或是說看部長有沒有什麼要補充？"],["周部長志宏：基本上，剛剛委員提到像公營事業，因為它相對待遇比一般公務人員要高，所以它離職率相對就會比較少，我想這也是一個因素。"],["吳委員宗憲：那就是我剛剛說的，對於一些比較特別的機關，如果有數據上面的凸顯，再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施。","現在要跟各位討論的一個比較重要的點就是，我知道考績法這次有修正，這次大家有提一個草案，我剛剛所提到的，其實公務員是很在乎考績的，包括我想立法院這邊也是，那我們原本是分4個：甲、乙、丙、丁，現在變成5個，傑出、優良、良好、待改善等總共有5種，我想請問一下，原本的考績這4種分等方式，它的問題是什麼？哪裡有問題？"],["周部長志宏：我想最大的問題就在於我們設定的比例，甲等的比例是75%，乙等是25%，乙等相對是比較差，所以大家都在避免被列為乙等，也會因此產生乙等的輪流或各種的潛規則產生；再來就是它不足以獎優，因為大多數人都是甲等，沒辦法在裡面再去進一步的獎優，讓更傑出的人能夠被凸顯出來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個部分我是認同啦！但我也覺得以前75%甲等，大家只要打贏那25%，就沒有問題了，當然這是一個考量。但是在新的草案裡面，我覺得有一個地方怪怪的，就是第九條，它說受考人員在考績年度內有下列情形之一者，始得考列傑出，第十款是擔任機關首長、副首長，就是擔任幹部職，領導有方，績效優良。把這個列進去，如果在早年75%是甲等的時候，可能基層公務員就想算了，不想跟你老闆吵，反正有75%是甲等。但是現在傑出是不得超過5%，這時候就會有一些基層公務員會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都占滿了，那他們算老幾這樣，我就擔心你列這個的話會不會有這個問題存在？"],["周部長志宏：我們也有聽到相關的意見，也要避免這樣的誤解，其實它只是條件之一，但並不是一定要當過首長、副首長、主管、副主管的才能夠拿到傑出，再加上如果未來，因為考績就是要同官等內評比，所以不一定都會是首長、副首長跟主管、副主管。"],["吳委員宗憲：我懂，所以這是第十款嘛！它是第十，擔任過這些職務，但是這個有必要特別列出來嗎？"],["周部長志宏：這個我們會來檢討，當然擔任主管，他職責程度比較重，當然比較有可能……"],["吳委員宗憲：我以前跟過一個檢察長，然後部裡面不良好的地檢署要有1個缺額，那個檢察長跳出來說：那你打我好了。一位朱姓檢察長，那我很佩服這樣的長官。"],["周部長志宏：對，我也佩服。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我知道很多長官都很有guts、很有肩膀，但是我們特別把他列進去條款中，就是曾經擔任過機關首長得考列傑出，我們特別把機關首長放進去，這對嗎？應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度、工作的狀況嘛！那有沒有必要把他列出來，就是機關首長，這是本席的一個問題。"],["周部長志宏：這個我們會檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：再麻煩你們能夠考量一下。"],["周部長志宏：是，好。"],["吳委員宗憲：尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候，基層一定會跟你吵，以前75%的時候，反正很容易打甲等，他也不會跟你吵，這個再麻煩你們。"],["周部長志宏：不過我們多數良好是跟現在的甲等是一樣的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道，但是傑出只有5%，這個沒有弄錯嘛！我說真的啦！當長官就有當長官的肩膀，如果當長官好處占盡，責任都是底下扛，我相信這樣的公務體制，很多人就會失去他的鬥志、失去他的熱忱。"],["周部長志宏：我們會避免這種現象的發生。"],["吳委員宗憲：本席就提出這樣一個淺見供你們參考。"],["周部長志宏：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，草案第十一條，我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的，就是待改善裡面有一個「職場霸凌、挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守」，這個東西會不會很主觀呢？以上這幾個點是在「應考列待改善」裡面，也就是你條文中有的，對不對？"],["周部長志宏：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個變成違反了法律的明確性原則，我講一個很簡單的，「品德操守」也是一個很模糊的空間；「整肅異己」這個更模糊啊！大家不約我吃飯，我就覺得你霸凌我！"],["周部長志宏：跟委員報告，這就是過去考列丙等的參考指標，裡面就是這樣的，但我們會檢討這是不是會太……"],["吳委員宗憲：我們不能說以前這樣，所以現在就如何，我們其實是一個越來越法治化的國家，法律明確性原則是我們念法律一個最基本的概念，所以很模糊的東西，我會比較建議儘量不要放進去，否則以後幹部就是你對我好，你就是沒有挑撥離間；你對我不好，就是挑撥離間，這就是很奇怪！"],["周部長志宏：我們會參考委員意見再來調整。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以待改善的項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念，就麻煩你們也參考一下，好不好？以上是本席看完草案之後提出了這幾個建議。好，謝謝兩位。"],["周部長志宏：謝謝委員。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委，謝謝秘書長，謝謝部長，這的確很有道理，用詞要明確，謝謝。","接下來我們請鄭委員天財質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":76,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-6","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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343.141, \"end\": 343.361, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 343.361, \"end\": 344.102, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 344.102, \"end\": 344.402, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 344.402, \"end\": 344.682, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"突\", \"start\": 344.682, \"end\": 344.943, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 344.943, \"end\": 344.963, \"score\": 0.939}]}, {\"start\": 345.834, \"end\": 360.807, \"text\": \"那這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換可能如果前幾年的數據看起來也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯這是一個特徵疫情期間職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高或者重考率會比較高\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 345.834, \"end\": 347.375, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 347.375, \"end\": 347.515, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 347.515, \"end\": 347.716, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 347.716, \"end\": 347.856, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 347.856, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"秘\", \"start\": 754.138, \"end\": 754.299, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 754.299, \"end\": 754.319, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,394 --> 00:00:16,692\n謝謝主席那我們麻煩考試院劉秘書長還有銓敘部的周部長尤其劉秘書長以及周部長兩位早安\n\n2\n00:00:18,195 --> 00:00:41,159\n我想先請教一個問題大概也就是跟這一次我們的考機有修正有關嘛那我自己以前都在公家機關所以我知道同仁其實是非常在乎考機的那我想請教先請教一個問題就是我想先請教劉秘書長就有關目前你掌握到的我們全國公務員的離職狀況是怎麼樣\n\n3\n00:00:46,867 --> 00:01:01,892\n離職狀況這幾年離職大概一年大概一萬多人但是在這邊要說明就是離職的定義包含退休、免職等等那所以這是一個總的人數大概一萬三吧\n\n4\n00:01:02,972 --> 00:01:09,358\n我這邊有一個數字大概就是從107年到111年其實我們可以看得出來您剛講的也沒有錯從107年到110年其實我們的數字是減少的但是111年我們增加到13500人\n\n5\n00:01:21,049 --> 00:01:21,529\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n6\n00:01:40,535 --> 00:01:40,555\n吳宗憲議員\n\n7\n00:02:02,935 --> 00:02:02,955\n吳宗憲議員\n\n8\n00:02:32,631 --> 00:02:56,905\n秘書長,你們那邊有沒有掌握什麼樣的問題是出在哪裡?這個人數裡面大概有五成多的人是退休啦那現在退休當然介林退休的比例比較慢慢越來越高但他這個是因為是退休所以他的性質就不太一樣那辭職大概佔這個人數裡差不多兩成大概就是每年兩千上下的那個數字\n\n9\n00:02:57,745 --> 00:03:06,573\n執職人數一直都沒有超過整個公務員全體人數的百分之一大概在0.68到0.96這個百分比中間我不是說跟全體的公務員人數我是說離職的人數他的比例有沒有\n\n10\n00:03:22,406 --> 00:03:22,426\n吳宗憲\n\n11\n00:03:46,307 --> 00:04:04,837\n這三成人是用離職重考來轉換工作所以我們有查過說這2000多人裡面可能有過幾年他就會慢慢有一部分會回來那當然有一些他被民間的薪資吸走或者是說他因為不適應公部門的角色所以離開這個當然個人因素等等這個我們也都有調查\n\n12\n00:04:06,177 --> 00:04:26,112\n照您剛說的啦就是說我們先不考量我可以理解你的意思因為我們自己也是公務員嘛他可能第一次考試考的分數分發的地點他不滿意他就會回過頭來再考一次這個也不是新鮮事嘛這我可以理解但是呢我想請教一下就像您剛說的\n\n13\n00:04:27,393 --> 00:04:27,793\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲\n\n14\n00:04:56,905 --> 00:05:06,825\n我想因為我們看這些年的趨勢其實是相對穩定所以並沒有有非常大幅度的調整\n\n15\n00:05:07,216 --> 00:05:27,210\n那至於其他的這一個部門他的離職率的狀況他的原因那我們會再來了解那相對比較之下公務員的部分應該其實算是相對穩定的是那你們有平常會去研究一下就是說離職率比較高的一些機關狀況是怎麼樣嗎有沒有做這樣的研究\n\n16\n00:05:31,053 --> 00:05:44,963\n我們去年有去做了一些統計數據的分析然後有幾個機關的確讓我們有看到他們的離職人數可能是人數不是比例有比較突出\n\n17\n00:05:45,834 --> 00:06:00,807\n那這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換可能如果前幾年的數據看起來也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯這是一個特徵疫情期間職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高或者重考率會比較高\n\n18\n00:06:09,654 --> 00:06:30,403\n因為我自己看那個我講簡單例子像我看那個書記官有人考上書記官分發到桃園地檢就流眼淚然後就不報到明年再考所以有一些機關確實是因為工作量的關係大家就是連報到都不想報到所以我才會說如果貴部或是貴院發現有一些\n\n19\n00:06:31,443 --> 00:06:31,463\n吳宗憲\n\n20\n00:06:47,184 --> 00:07:05,514\n基本上剛剛委員提到像公營事業因為它相對待遇比一般公務人員要高所以它離職率相對就會比較少我想這也是一個因素好那就是我剛剛說的就對一些比較特別的機關如果有這個數據上面的凸顯再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施\n\n21\n00:07:06,374 --> 00:07:30,179\n那我現在今天要跟各位討論的一個是比較重要的點就是我知道考機法這次有修正就是我這次大家有提一個草案那我剛剛所提到的其實公務員是很在乎考機的包括我想到立法院這邊也是那我們原本是分四個嘛加以秉丁那現在變成是五個就是從什麼傑出優良良好\n\n22\n00:07:36,340 --> 00:07:55,444\n請問原本的考積這四種分等方式出在哪裡有問題我想最大問題就在於說我們設定的比例那假等的比例是75那已等是25那已等相對是比較差所以大家都在避免被列為已等\n\n23\n00:07:55,964 --> 00:07:57,706\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n\n24\n00:08:15,419 --> 00:08:38,469\n這個部分我是認同啦但我也覺得以前75%假等大家我只要打贏那25%我就沒有問題了這當然這是一個考量但是呢在新的草案裡面我覺得有個地方怪怪的就是第9條他說受考人員在考進年度內有下列情形之一者使得考列傑出第10個是說單任機關首長副首長就是單任幹部職領導友方績效優良\n\n25\n00:08:44,651 --> 00:09:05,805\n把這個列進去如果在早年75%是假等的時候可能基層公務員他就算了我不想跟你老闆吵反正有75%是假等但是呢現在傑出是不得超過5%那這時候就會有一些基層公務員就會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都站滿了那我們算老幾這樣\n\n26\n00:09:07,146 --> 00:09:07,166\n吳宗憲\n\n27\n00:09:36,198 --> 00:09:36,218\n吳宗憲\n\n28\n00:09:57,270 --> 00:10:19,560\n租姓家長,我很佩服這樣的長官我知道很多長官都很有肩膀但是我們特別把它列進去就是說這樣子曾經擔任過機關首長是得列為考列傑出我們特別把機關首長放進去就對嗎?應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度工作的狀況\n\n29\n00:10:21,101 --> 00:10:43,545\n那我有沒有必要把它列出來就是機關首長這是本席的一個問題再麻煩你們能夠考量一下那再來尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候基層一定會跟你吵以前75的時候反正很容易打夾等那他也不會跟你吵這個再麻煩你們不過我們多數良好是跟現在的夾等是一樣的\n\n30\n00:10:44,585 --> 00:11:10,203\n我知道但是傑出是只有5%這個沒有弄錯嘛但是我說真的啦當長官就有當長官的肩膀阿如果當長官好處占盡責任都是底下扛我相信這樣的公務體制很多人就會失去他的鬥志失去他的熱忱我們會避免這種現象這本席就提出一個這樣子僭建供你們參考謝謝委員好那再來就是\n\n31\n00:11:11,804 --> 00:11:38,115\n草案第11條我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的就是待改善裡面有一個職場霸凌挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守這個東西會不會列為很主觀啊對所以說你說這個應考列待改善裡面的這幾個點是你條文中有的嘛對不對對那這個是變成是違反法律的明確性原則啊我講一個很簡單的\n\n32\n00:11:39,994 --> 00:12:03,681\n品德操守也是一個很模糊的空間整數一級這個更模糊啊大家不約我吃飯我就覺得你霸凌我這是過去考列平等的參考指標裡面是這樣但我們會檢討說我們不能說以前這樣現在就對我們其實越來越法制化的國家法律明確性原則是我們念法律都是一個最基本的概念就是說\n\n33\n00:12:05,291 --> 00:12:31,096\n很模糊的東西我會比較建議盡量不要放進去否則以後幹部就是你對我好你就是就是沒有挑撥力階你對我不好就是挑撥力階這就是很奇怪會有參考委員已經再來調整那所以這個待改善的這個項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念就麻煩你們也參考一下好不好本席今天是對這個我看完草案之後提出這幾個建議好謝謝兩位謝謝\n\n34\n00:12:33,897 --> 00:12:34,319\n謝謝吳沙偉、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5394\t16692\t謝謝主席那我們麻煩考試院劉秘書長還有銓敘部的周部長尤其劉秘書長以及周部長兩位早安\n18195\t41159\t我想先請教一個問題大概也就是跟這一次我們的考機有修正有關嘛那我自己以前都在公家機關所以我知道同仁其實是非常在乎考機的那我想請教先請教一個問題就是我想先請教劉秘書長就有關目前你掌握到的我們全國公務員的離職狀況是怎麼樣\n46867\t61892\t離職狀況這幾年離職大概一年大概一萬多人但是在這邊要說明就是離職的定義包含退休、免職等等那所以這是一個總的人數大概一萬三吧\n62972\t69358\t我這邊有一個數字大概就是從107年到111年其實我們可以看得出來您剛講的也沒有錯從107年到110年其實我們的數字是減少的但是111年我們增加到13500人\n81049\t81529\t委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n100535\t100555\t吳宗憲議員\n122935\t122955\t吳宗憲議員\n152631\t176905\t秘書長,你們那邊有沒有掌握什麼樣的問題是出在哪裡?這個人數裡面大概有五成多的人是退休啦那現在退休當然介林退休的比例比較慢慢越來越高但他這個是因為是退休所以他的性質就不太一樣那辭職大概佔這個人數裡差不多兩成大概就是每年兩千上下的那個數字\n177745\t186573\t執職人數一直都沒有超過整個公務員全體人數的百分之一大概在0.68到0.96這個百分比中間我不是說跟全體的公務員人數我是說離職的人數他的比例有沒有\n202406\t202426\t吳宗憲\n226307\t244837\t這三成人是用離職重考來轉換工作所以我們有查過說這2000多人裡面可能有過幾年他就會慢慢有一部分會回來那當然有一些他被民間的薪資吸走或者是說他因為不適應公部門的角色所以離開這個當然個人因素等等這個我們也都有調查\n246177\t266112\t照您剛說的啦就是說我們先不考量我可以理解你的意思因為我們自己也是公務員嘛他可能第一次考試考的分數分發的地點他不滿意他就會回過頭來再考一次這個也不是新鮮事嘛這我可以理解但是呢我想請教一下就像您剛說的\n267393\t267793\t吳宗憲議員吳宗憲\n296905\t306825\t我想因為我們看這些年的趨勢其實是相對穩定所以並沒有有非常大幅度的調整\n307216\t327210\t那至於其他的這一個部門他的離職率的狀況他的原因那我們會再來了解那相對比較之下公務員的部分應該其實算是相對穩定的是那你們有平常會去研究一下就是說離職率比較高的一些機關狀況是怎麼樣嗎有沒有做這樣的研究\n331053\t344963\t我們去年有去做了一些統計數據的分析然後有幾個機關的確讓我們有看到他們的離職人數可能是人數不是比例有比較突出\n345834\t360807\t那這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換可能如果前幾年的數據看起來也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯這是一個特徵疫情期間職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高或者重考率會比較高\n369654\t390403\t因為我自己看那個我講簡單例子像我看那個書記官有人考上書記官分發到桃園地檢就流眼淚然後就不報到明年再考所以有一些機關確實是因為工作量的關係大家就是連報到都不想報到所以我才會說如果貴部或是貴院發現有一些\n391443\t391463\t吳宗憲\n407184\t425514\t基本上剛剛委員提到像公營事業因為它相對待遇比一般公務人員要高所以它離職率相對就會比較少我想這也是一個因素好 那就是我剛剛說的就對一些比較特別的機關如果有這個數據上面的凸顯再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施\n426374\t450179\t那我現在今天要跟各位討論的一個是比較重要的點就是我知道考機法這次有修正就是我這次大家有提一個草案那我剛剛所提到的其實公務員是很在乎考機的包括我想到立法院這邊也是那我們原本是分四個嘛加以秉丁那現在變成是五個就是從什麼傑出優良良好\n456340\t475444\t請問原本的考積這四種分等方式出在哪裡有問題我想最大問題就在於說我們設定的比例那假等的比例是75那已等是25那已等相對是比較差所以大家都在避免被列為已等\n475964\t477706\t委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n495419\t518469\t這個部分我是認同啦但我也覺得以前75%假等大家我只要打贏那25%我就沒有問題了這當然這是一個考量但是呢在新的草案裡面我覺得有個地方怪怪的就是第9條他說受考人員在考進年度內有下列情形之一者使得考列傑出第10個是說單任機關首長副首長就是單任幹部職領導友方績效優良\n524651\t545805\t把這個列進去如果在早年75%是假等的時候可能基層公務員他就算了我不想跟你老闆吵反正有75%是假等但是呢現在傑出是不得超過5%那這時候就會有一些基層公務員就會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都站滿了那我們算老幾這樣\n547146\t547166\t吳宗憲\n576198\t576218\t吳宗憲\n597270\t619560\t租姓家長,我很佩服這樣的長官我知道很多長官都很有肩膀但是我們特別把它列進去就是說這樣子曾經擔任過機關首長是得列為考列傑出我們特別把機關首長放進去就對嗎?應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度工作的狀況\n621101\t643545\t那我有沒有必要把它列出來就是機關首長這是本席的一個問題再麻煩你們能夠考量一下那再來尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候基層一定會跟你吵以前75的時候反正很容易打夾等那他也不會跟你吵這個再麻煩你們不過我們多數良好是跟現在的夾等是一樣的\n644585\t670203\t我知道 但是傑出是只有5%這個沒有弄錯嘛但是 我說真的啦當長官就有當長官的肩膀阿如果當長官好處占盡責任都是底下扛我相信這樣的公務體制很多人就會失去他的鬥志 失去他的熱忱我們會避免這種現象這本席就提出一個這樣子 僭建供你們參考謝謝委員好 那再來就是\n671804\t698115\t草案第11條我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的就是待改善裡面有一個職場霸凌挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守這個東西會不會列為很主觀啊對所以說你說這個應考列待改善裡面的這幾個點是你條文中有的嘛對不對對那這個是變成是違反法律的明確性原則啊我講一個很簡單的\n699994\t723681\t品德操守也是一個很模糊的空間整數一級這個更模糊啊大家不約我吃飯我就覺得你霸凌我這是過去考列平等的參考指標裡面是這樣但我們會檢討說我們不能說以前這樣現在就對我們其實越來越法制化的國家法律明確性原則是我們念法律都是一個最基本的概念就是說\n725291\t751096\t很模糊的東西我會比較建議盡量不要放進去否則以後幹部就是你對我好你就是就是沒有挑撥力階你對我不好就是挑撥力階這就是很奇怪會有參考委員已經再來調整那所以這個待改善的這個項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念就麻煩你們也參考一下好不好本席今天是對這個我看完草案之後提出這幾個建議好謝謝兩位謝謝\n753897\t754319\t謝謝吳沙偉、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長\n","txt":"謝謝主席那我們麻煩考試院劉秘書長還有銓敘部的周部長尤其劉秘書長以及周部長兩位早安\n我想先請教一個問題大概也就是跟這一次我們的考機有修正有關嘛那我自己以前都在公家機關所以我知道同仁其實是非常在乎考機的那我想請教先請教一個問題就是我想先請教劉秘書長就有關目前你掌握到的我們全國公務員的離職狀況是怎麼樣\n離職狀況這幾年離職大概一年大概一萬多人但是在這邊要說明就是離職的定義包含退休、免職等等那所以這是一個總的人數大概一萬三吧\n我這邊有一個數字大概就是從107年到111年其實我們可以看得出來您剛講的也沒有錯從107年到110年其實我們的數字是減少的但是111年我們增加到13500人\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n吳宗憲議員\n吳宗憲議員\n秘書長,你們那邊有沒有掌握什麼樣的問題是出在哪裡?這個人數裡面大概有五成多的人是退休啦那現在退休當然介林退休的比例比較慢慢越來越高但他這個是因為是退休所以他的性質就不太一樣那辭職大概佔這個人數裡差不多兩成大概就是每年兩千上下的那個數字\n執職人數一直都沒有超過整個公務員全體人數的百分之一大概在0.68到0.96這個百分比中間我不是說跟全體的公務員人數我是說離職的人數他的比例有沒有\n吳宗憲\n這三成人是用離職重考來轉換工作所以我們有查過說這2000多人裡面可能有過幾年他就會慢慢有一部分會回來那當然有一些他被民間的薪資吸走或者是說他因為不適應公部門的角色所以離開這個當然個人因素等等這個我們也都有調查\n照您剛說的啦就是說我們先不考量我可以理解你的意思因為我們自己也是公務員嘛他可能第一次考試考的分數分發的地點他不滿意他就會回過頭來再考一次這個也不是新鮮事嘛這我可以理解但是呢我想請教一下就像您剛說的\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲\n我想因為我們看這些年的趨勢其實是相對穩定所以並沒有有非常大幅度的調整\n那至於其他的這一個部門他的離職率的狀況他的原因那我們會再來了解那相對比較之下公務員的部分應該其實算是相對穩定的是那你們有平常會去研究一下就是說離職率比較高的一些機關狀況是怎麼樣嗎有沒有做這樣的研究\n我們去年有去做了一些統計數據的分析然後有幾個機關的確讓我們有看到他們的離職人數可能是人數不是比例有比較突出\n那這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換可能如果前幾年的數據看起來也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯這是一個特徵疫情期間職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高或者重考率會比較高\n因為我自己看那個我講簡單例子像我看那個書記官有人考上書記官分發到桃園地檢就流眼淚然後就不報到明年再考所以有一些機關確實是因為工作量的關係大家就是連報到都不想報到所以我才會說如果貴部或是貴院發現有一些\n吳宗憲\n基本上剛剛委員提到像公營事業因為它相對待遇比一般公務人員要高所以它離職率相對就會比較少我想這也是一個因素好 那就是我剛剛說的就對一些比較特別的機關如果有這個數據上面的凸顯再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施\n那我現在今天要跟各位討論的一個是比較重要的點就是我知道考機法這次有修正就是我這次大家有提一個草案那我剛剛所提到的其實公務員是很在乎考機的包括我想到立法院這邊也是那我們原本是分四個嘛加以秉丁那現在變成是五個就是從什麼傑出優良良好\n請問原本的考積這四種分等方式出在哪裡有問題我想最大問題就在於說我們設定的比例那假等的比例是75那已等是25那已等相對是比較差所以大家都在避免被列為已等\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n這個部分我是認同啦但我也覺得以前75%假等大家我只要打贏那25%我就沒有問題了這當然這是一個考量但是呢在新的草案裡面我覺得有個地方怪怪的就是第9條他說受考人員在考進年度內有下列情形之一者使得考列傑出第10個是說單任機關首長副首長就是單任幹部職領導友方績效優良\n把這個列進去如果在早年75%是假等的時候可能基層公務員他就算了我不想跟你老闆吵反正有75%是假等但是呢現在傑出是不得超過5%那這時候就會有一些基層公務員就會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都站滿了那我們算老幾這樣\n吳宗憲\n吳宗憲\n租姓家長,我很佩服這樣的長官我知道很多長官都很有肩膀但是我們特別把它列進去就是說這樣子曾經擔任過機關首長是得列為考列傑出我們特別把機關首長放進去就對嗎?應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度工作的狀況\n那我有沒有必要把它列出來就是機關首長這是本席的一個問題再麻煩你們能夠考量一下那再來尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候基層一定會跟你吵以前75的時候反正很容易打夾等那他也不會跟你吵這個再麻煩你們不過我們多數良好是跟現在的夾等是一樣的\n我知道 但是傑出是只有5%這個沒有弄錯嘛但是 我說真的啦當長官就有當長官的肩膀阿如果當長官好處占盡責任都是底下扛我相信這樣的公務體制很多人就會失去他的鬥志 失去他的熱忱我們會避免這種現象這本席就提出一個這樣子 僭建供你們參考謝謝委員好 那再來就是\n草案第11條我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的就是待改善裡面有一個職場霸凌挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守這個東西會不會列為很主觀啊對所以說你說這個應考列待改善裡面的這幾個點是你條文中有的嘛對不對對那這個是變成是違反法律的明確性原則啊我講一個很簡單的\n品德操守也是一個很模糊的空間整數一級這個更模糊啊大家不約我吃飯我就覺得你霸凌我這是過去考列平等的參考指標裡面是這樣但我們會檢討說我們不能說以前這樣現在就對我們其實越來越法制化的國家法律明確性原則是我們念法律都是一個最基本的概念就是說\n很模糊的東西我會比較建議盡量不要放進去否則以後幹部就是你對我好你就是就是沒有挑撥力階你對我不好就是挑撥力階這就是很奇怪會有參考委員已經再來調整那所以這個待改善的這個項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念就麻煩你們也參考一下好不好本席今天是對這個我看完草案之後提出這幾個建議好謝謝兩位謝謝\n謝謝吳沙偉、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.394 --> 00:16.692\n謝謝主席那我們麻煩考試院劉秘書長還有銓敘部的周部長尤其劉秘書長以及周部長兩位早安\n\n00:18.195 --> 00:41.159\n我想先請教一個問題大概也就是跟這一次我們的考機有修正有關嘛那我自己以前都在公家機關所以我知道同仁其實是非常在乎考機的那我想請教先請教一個問題就是我想先請教劉秘書長就有關目前你掌握到的我們全國公務員的離職狀況是怎麼樣\n\n00:46.867 --> 01:01.892\n離職狀況這幾年離職大概一年大概一萬多人但是在這邊要說明就是離職的定義包含退休、免職等等那所以這是一個總的人數大概一萬三吧\n\n01:02.972 --> 01:09.358\n我這邊有一個數字大概就是從107年到111年其實我們可以看得出來您剛講的也沒有錯從107年到110年其實我們的數字是減少的但是111年我們增加到13500人\n\n01:21.049 --> 01:21.529\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n01:40.535 --> 01:40.555\n吳宗憲議員\n\n02:02.935 --> 02:02.955\n吳宗憲議員\n\n02:32.631 --> 02:56.905\n秘書長,你們那邊有沒有掌握什麼樣的問題是出在哪裡?這個人數裡面大概有五成多的人是退休啦那現在退休當然介林退休的比例比較慢慢越來越高但他這個是因為是退休所以他的性質就不太一樣那辭職大概佔這個人數裡差不多兩成大概就是每年兩千上下的那個數字\n\n02:57.745 --> 03:06.573\n執職人數一直都沒有超過整個公務員全體人數的百分之一大概在0.68到0.96這個百分比中間我不是說跟全體的公務員人數我是說離職的人數他的比例有沒有\n\n03:22.406 --> 03:22.426\n吳宗憲\n\n03:46.307 --> 04:04.837\n這三成人是用離職重考來轉換工作所以我們有查過說這2000多人裡面可能有過幾年他就會慢慢有一部分會回來那當然有一些他被民間的薪資吸走或者是說他因為不適應公部門的角色所以離開這個當然個人因素等等這個我們也都有調查\n\n04:06.177 --> 04:26.112\n照您剛說的啦就是說我們先不考量我可以理解你的意思因為我們自己也是公務員嘛他可能第一次考試考的分數分發的地點他不滿意他就會回過頭來再考一次這個也不是新鮮事嘛這我可以理解但是呢我想請教一下就像您剛說的\n\n04:27.393 --> 04:27.793\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲\n\n04:56.905 --> 05:06.825\n我想因為我們看這些年的趨勢其實是相對穩定所以並沒有有非常大幅度的調整\n\n05:07.216 --> 05:27.210\n那至於其他的這一個部門他的離職率的狀況他的原因那我們會再來了解那相對比較之下公務員的部分應該其實算是相對穩定的是那你們有平常會去研究一下就是說離職率比較高的一些機關狀況是怎麼樣嗎有沒有做這樣的研究\n\n05:31.053 --> 05:44.963\n我們去年有去做了一些統計數據的分析然後有幾個機關的確讓我們有看到他們的離職人數可能是人數不是比例有比較突出\n\n05:45.834 --> 06:00.807\n那這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換可能如果前幾年的數據看起來也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯這是一個特徵疫情期間職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高或者重考率會比較高\n\n06:09.654 --> 06:30.403\n因為我自己看那個我講簡單例子像我看那個書記官有人考上書記官分發到桃園地檢就流眼淚然後就不報到明年再考所以有一些機關確實是因為工作量的關係大家就是連報到都不想報到所以我才會說如果貴部或是貴院發現有一些\n\n06:31.443 --> 06:31.463\n吳宗憲\n\n06:47.184 --> 07:05.514\n基本上剛剛委員提到像公營事業因為它相對待遇比一般公務人員要高所以它離職率相對就會比較少我想這也是一個因素好那就是我剛剛說的就對一些比較特別的機關如果有這個數據上面的凸顯再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施\n\n07:06.374 --> 07:30.179\n那我現在今天要跟各位討論的一個是比較重要的點就是我知道考機法這次有修正就是我這次大家有提一個草案那我剛剛所提到的其實公務員是很在乎考機的包括我想到立法院這邊也是那我們原本是分四個嘛加以秉丁那現在變成是五個就是從什麼傑出優良良好\n\n07:36.340 --> 07:55.444\n請問原本的考積這四種分等方式出在哪裡有問題我想最大問題就在於說我們設定的比例那假等的比例是75那已等是25那已等相對是比較差所以大家都在避免被列為已等\n\n07:55.964 --> 07:57.706\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會\n\n08:15.419 --> 08:38.469\n這個部分我是認同啦但我也覺得以前75%假等大家我只要打贏那25%我就沒有問題了這當然這是一個考量但是呢在新的草案裡面我覺得有個地方怪怪的就是第9條他說受考人員在考進年度內有下列情形之一者使得考列傑出第10個是說單任機關首長副首長就是單任幹部職領導友方績效優良\n\n08:44.651 --> 09:05.805\n把這個列進去如果在早年75%是假等的時候可能基層公務員他就算了我不想跟你老闆吵反正有75%是假等但是呢現在傑出是不得超過5%那這時候就會有一些基層公務員就會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都站滿了那我們算老幾這樣\n\n09:07.146 --> 09:07.166\n吳宗憲\n\n09:36.198 --> 09:36.218\n吳宗憲\n\n09:57.270 --> 10:19.560\n租姓家長,我很佩服這樣的長官我知道很多長官都很有肩膀但是我們特別把它列進去就是說這樣子曾經擔任過機關首長是得列為考列傑出我們特別把機關首長放進去就對嗎?應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度工作的狀況\n\n10:21.101 --> 10:43.545\n那我有沒有必要把它列出來就是機關首長這是本席的一個問題再麻煩你們能夠考量一下那再來尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候基層一定會跟你吵以前75的時候反正很容易打夾等那他也不會跟你吵這個再麻煩你們不過我們多數良好是跟現在的夾等是一樣的\n\n10:44.585 --> 11:10.203\n我知道但是傑出是只有5%這個沒有弄錯嘛但是我說真的啦當長官就有當長官的肩膀阿如果當長官好處占盡責任都是底下扛我相信這樣的公務體制很多人就會失去他的鬥志失去他的熱忱我們會避免這種現象這本席就提出一個這樣子僭建供你們參考謝謝委員好那再來就是\n\n11:11.804 --> 11:38.115\n草案第11條我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的就是待改善裡面有一個職場霸凌挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守這個東西會不會列為很主觀啊對所以說你說這個應考列待改善裡面的這幾個點是你條文中有的嘛對不對對那這個是變成是違反法律的明確性原則啊我講一個很簡單的\n\n11:39.994 --> 12:03.681\n品德操守也是一個很模糊的空間整數一級這個更模糊啊大家不約我吃飯我就覺得你霸凌我這是過去考列平等的參考指標裡面是這樣但我們會檢討說我們不能說以前這樣現在就對我們其實越來越法制化的國家法律明確性原則是我們念法律都是一個最基本的概念就是說\n\n12:05.291 --> 12:31.096\n很模糊的東西我會比較建議盡量不要放進去否則以後幹部就是你對我好你就是就是沒有挑撥力階你對我不好就是挑撥力階這就是很奇怪會有參考委員已經再來調整那所以這個待改善的這個項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念就麻煩你們也參考一下好不好本席今天是對這個我看完草案之後提出這幾個建議好謝謝兩位謝謝\n\n12:33.897 --> 12:34.319\n謝謝吳沙偉、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.394,"end":16.692,"text":"謝謝主席那我們麻煩考試院劉秘書長還有銓敘部的周部長尤其劉秘書長以及周部長兩位早安"},{"start":18.195,"end":41.159,"text":"我想先請教一個問題大概也就是跟這一次我們的考機有修正有關嘛那我自己以前都在公家機關所以我知道同仁其實是非常在乎考機的那我想請教先請教一個問題就是我想先請教劉秘書長就有關目前你掌握到的我們全國公務員的離職狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":46.867,"end":61.892,"text":"離職狀況這幾年離職大概一年大概一萬多人但是在這邊要說明就是離職的定義包含退休、免職等等那所以這是一個總的人數大概一萬三吧"},{"start":62.972,"end":69.358,"text":"我這邊有一個數字大概就是從107年到111年其實我們可以看得出來您剛講的也沒有錯從107年到110年其實我們的數字是減少的但是111年我們增加到13500人"},{"start":81.049,"end":81.529,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":100.535,"end":100.555,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":122.935,"end":122.955,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":152.631,"end":176.905,"text":"秘書長,你們那邊有沒有掌握什麼樣的問題是出在哪裡?這個人數裡面大概有五成多的人是退休啦那現在退休當然介林退休的比例比較慢慢越來越高但他這個是因為是退休所以他的性質就不太一樣那辭職大概佔這個人數裡差不多兩成大概就是每年兩千上下的那個數字"},{"start":177.745,"end":186.573,"text":"執職人數一直都沒有超過整個公務員全體人數的百分之一大概在0.68到0.96這個百分比中間我不是說跟全體的公務員人數我是說離職的人數他的比例有沒有"},{"start":202.406,"end":202.426,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":226.307,"end":244.837,"text":"這三成人是用離職重考來轉換工作所以我們有查過說這2000多人裡面可能有過幾年他就會慢慢有一部分會回來那當然有一些他被民間的薪資吸走或者是說他因為不適應公部門的角色所以離開這個當然個人因素等等這個我們也都有調查"},{"start":246.177,"end":266.112,"text":"照您剛說的啦就是說我們先不考量我可以理解你的意思因為我們自己也是公務員嘛他可能第一次考試考的分數分發的地點他不滿意他就會回過頭來再考一次這個也不是新鮮事嘛這我可以理解但是呢我想請教一下就像您剛說的"},{"start":267.393,"end":267.793,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":296.905,"end":306.825,"text":"我想因為我們看這些年的趨勢其實是相對穩定所以並沒有有非常大幅度的調整"},{"start":307.216,"end":327.21,"text":"那至於其他的這一個部門他的離職率的狀況他的原因那我們會再來了解那相對比較之下公務員的部分應該其實算是相對穩定的是那你們有平常會去研究一下就是說離職率比較高的一些機關狀況是怎麼樣嗎有沒有做這樣的研究"},{"start":331.053,"end":344.963,"text":"我們去年有去做了一些統計數據的分析然後有幾個機關的確讓我們有看到他們的離職人數可能是人數不是比例有比較突出"},{"start":345.834,"end":360.807,"text":"那這裡面我們有去跟相關機關做一點意見交換可能如果前幾年的數據看起來也許跟疫情期間責任特別重的機關比較有關聯這是一個特徵疫情期間職責會加重的那幾個機關離職率會比較高或者重考率會比較高"},{"start":369.654,"end":390.403,"text":"因為我自己看那個我講簡單例子像我看那個書記官有人考上書記官分發到桃園地檢就流眼淚然後就不報到明年再考所以有一些機關確實是因為工作量的關係大家就是連報到都不想報到所以我才會說如果貴部或是貴院發現有一些"},{"start":391.443,"end":391.463,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":407.184,"end":425.514,"text":"基本上剛剛委員提到像公營事業因為它相對待遇比一般公務人員要高所以它離職率相對就會比較少我想這也是一個因素好 那就是我剛剛說的就對一些比較特別的機關如果有這個數據上面的凸顯再麻煩各位能夠找個配套措施"},{"start":426.374,"end":450.179,"text":"那我現在今天要跟各位討論的一個是比較重要的點就是我知道考機法這次有修正就是我這次大家有提一個草案那我剛剛所提到的其實公務員是很在乎考機的包括我想到立法院這邊也是那我們原本是分四個嘛加以秉丁那現在變成是五個就是從什麼傑出優良良好"},{"start":456.34,"end":475.444,"text":"請問原本的考積這四種分等方式出在哪裡有問題我想最大問題就在於說我們設定的比例那假等的比例是75那已等是25那已等相對是比較差所以大家都在避免被列為已等"},{"start":475.964,"end":477.706,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":495.419,"end":518.469,"text":"這個部分我是認同啦但我也覺得以前75%假等大家我只要打贏那25%我就沒有問題了這當然這是一個考量但是呢在新的草案裡面我覺得有個地方怪怪的就是第9條他說受考人員在考進年度內有下列情形之一者使得考列傑出第10個是說單任機關首長副首長就是單任幹部職領導友方績效優良"},{"start":524.651,"end":545.805,"text":"把這個列進去如果在早年75%是假等的時候可能基層公務員他就算了我不想跟你老闆吵反正有75%是假等但是呢現在傑出是不得超過5%那這時候就會有一些基層公務員就會覺得5%就是你們這些長官都站滿了那我們算老幾這樣"},{"start":547.146,"end":547.166,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":576.198,"end":576.218,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":597.27,"end":619.56,"text":"租姓家長,我很佩服這樣的長官我知道很多長官都很有肩膀但是我們特別把它列進去就是說這樣子曾經擔任過機關首長是得列為考列傑出我們特別把機關首長放進去就對嗎?應該是說我們在乎的是他工作的態度工作的狀況"},{"start":621.101,"end":643.545,"text":"那我有沒有必要把它列出來就是機關首長這是本席的一個問題再麻煩你們能夠考量一下那再來尤其是只剩下5%是傑出的時候基層一定會跟你吵以前75的時候反正很容易打夾等那他也不會跟你吵這個再麻煩你們不過我們多數良好是跟現在的夾等是一樣的"},{"start":644.585,"end":670.203,"text":"我知道 但是傑出是只有5%這個沒有弄錯嘛但是 我說真的啦當長官就有當長官的肩膀阿如果當長官好處占盡責任都是底下扛我相信這樣的公務體制很多人就會失去他的鬥志 失去他的熱忱我們會避免這種現象這本席就提出一個這樣子 僭建供你們參考謝謝委員好 那再來就是"},{"start":671.804,"end":698.115,"text":"草案第11條我還是覺得有一個地方怪怪的就是待改善裡面有一個職場霸凌挑撥離間、整肅異己、品德操守這個東西會不會列為很主觀啊對所以說你說這個應考列待改善裡面的這幾個點是你條文中有的嘛對不對對那這個是變成是違反法律的明確性原則啊我講一個很簡單的"},{"start":699.994,"end":723.681,"text":"品德操守也是一個很模糊的空間整數一級這個更模糊啊大家不約我吃飯我就覺得你霸凌我這是過去考列平等的參考指標裡面是這樣但我們會檢討說我們不能說以前這樣現在就對我們其實越來越法制化的國家法律明確性原則是我們念法律都是一個最基本的概念就是說"},{"start":725.291,"end":751.096,"text":"很模糊的東西我會比較建議盡量不要放進去否則以後幹部就是你對我好你就是就是沒有挑撥力階你對我不好就是挑撥力階這就是很奇怪會有參考委員已經再來調整那所以這個待改善的這個項目裡面有這麼多不確定的抽象概念就麻煩你們也參考一下好不好本席今天是對這個我看完草案之後提出這幾個建議好謝謝兩位謝謝"},{"start":753.897,"end":754.319,"text":"謝謝吳沙偉、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長"}]}}}}