{"id":149809,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903b6a8be15224f49cc14015affd80140c0f8ba9b0039caa7a605479c7cef35606c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:29:55 - 11:40:29","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案。(一)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議（一）「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議（一）「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。三、審查海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海巡署及所屬決議（一）「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案。四、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-6"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":634,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:40:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:29:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1168,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時29分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請管主委。"],["主席：好，請我們管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：管主委好。管主委，本席依照剛剛鄭天財委員的詢答，我們繼續來探究。海洋保育法，說實在話，其實是晚了3年，大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後，本來明定2年內海洋保育法就要出來，但直到2024年我們這次開議之前，行政院才通過海洋保育法版本，說實在話，本席也認為亡羊補牢猶未晚矣，重點是我們現在要趕快來做。第10屆沒有辦法做到的，其實政院版沒有送出來，第11屆加速辦理，但是我們更要看到的是這個草案出來之後，有沒有善盡完整的規劃。所以第一點想請教主委，剛剛鄭天財委員提到，針對海洋庇護區，我們有審議會要組成及設置，這規定在草案第七條裡，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前審議會是由專家學者、民間團體及有關機關代表組成，其中專家學者及民間團體代表不得少於委員總人數的二分之一，主要是想確保審議會的獨立性跟公正性。請問，有關機關的代表有哪一些？"],["管主任委員碧玲：要看，譬如像經濟部門會是，漁業部門鐵定一定是，原住民部門也鐵定一定是……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是官方代表？"],["管主任委員碧玲：未來在子法的修訂上會有一個機制，但是以庇護區的劃設來講，非常非常直接的就是交通部門，因為有船舶航行、航運；經濟部門有海事工程、能源；漁業的話，那當然是重中之重，原住民也一樣，所以這一些主管機關鐵定會是裡面的成員。"],["洪委員孟楷：審議會目前預計會有多少位委員？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前子法還沒有定，將來我們審母法的時候，也有可能會有附帶決議等等，這個到時候都尊重……"],["洪委員孟楷：那您現在預期呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們現在還沒有預期我們的成員要多少人。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在沒有預期？你們是主管機關欸！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，沒錯。因為每一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，您過去立法經驗那麼豐富，其實應該很瞭解，這個才是重點啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為每一個庇護區的劃設，是要依據庇護區所涉及的用海單位相互之間的利用關係，上面的特質是要浮動型的，還是要固定型的，這些在子法討論過程中，我們都還要廣泛……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席比較直接詢問，包括剛剛鄭天財委員或是其他委員討論到的，為保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等，是不是應該把原住民身分的委員或任一性別委員的比例明定於法規裡？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，也確實……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要只是在立法理由裡面，因為你的立法理由裡面其實有寫到喔！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我知道，確實在討論的時候，這個也是一個爭點，也討論了很久……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果我們把它明定在法條裡面，您認不認同？"],["管主任委員碧玲：精神上我們絕對是遂行這樣的精神，但是法條內容當初就是有各方討論，譬如漁業是不是也要明定？這個時候就會有很多討論結果，最後法條就是這樣設，然後這樣處理。至於送到大院討論的時候，我作為海委會主委，提出了這樣的版本……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經千呼萬喚3年多的時間了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：也是行政院的院版，我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本，我就是站在這個版本的立場，但是廣泛的聽取委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你不認為應該增加明定於法條裡面嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：廣泛的聽取委員們的討論之後，最後會有協商的結論出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，再請教，是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則，並納入法律文字？譬如他可能是跟開發計畫有利益相關者，或是曾經參與開發計畫環境影響評估作業者？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是兩部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：即便也有人說這也要旋轉門條款，不要讓審議會到時候變成是某些開發對象的門神。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在子法的時候再來考量這些項目，好不好？謝謝委員提出這樣的課題……"],["洪委員孟楷：我想這都是非常重要，也是真真正正讓國人看到我們海洋保育的實際行動。"],["管主任委員碧玲：二個概念，一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方、利益相關的各方，但是個案來講，我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，感謝主委認同遵守利益迴避，但是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：領域一定要進來，譬如我這個產業別一定要進來，但是個案的當事人……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，請容本席提醒……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這個很感謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們海洋委員會，身為海洋保育法的主管機關，其重點還是在於保育，重點還是在於永續，重點還是在於讓我們的海洋資源源遠流長不斷，為我們這一代人跟下一代人做努力跟守護。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席覺得一個法令要棍子與蘿蔔並施，在你們的草案裡有取締違反海洋保育相關的行為，就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：罰多少錢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們的 range處理的比較大的原因是因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：range蠻大的，不是比較大。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：來啦！我直接講，您不用翻法條，我都已經查清楚了，跟您說……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這跟海污法一樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：緩衝區是罰6萬到30萬，核心區是10萬到50萬，好像沒有所謂的累加、累計。第一，沒有所謂累加、累計，最後可能變成有人會是累犯。第二，只有罰鍰，沒有罰則、沒有刑責。所以我要問主委，你覺得這樣的嚇阻力夠不夠？"],["管主任委員碧玲：入刑是一個大問題，這個大議題我想恐怕是很大……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是要加強保育，為什麼？因為我們……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：有海洋庇護區出來之後，有緩衝區、有核心區，就一般人認知，所謂的核心區，應該就是絕對禁止從事相關的活動，這也是你們的立法精神，我現在要說的是，你的核心區罰鍰從10萬到50萬，第一來講，這個到底夠不夠嚇阻？譬如有一些利益的部分。再來第二，是不是應該增強嚇阻效果，甚至考慮刑責？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，海上所有用海單位有很優越、優勢的群體，譬如很可能是能源產業，或者是海事工程產業，但也有比較弱勢的群體，譬如可能是漁業等等，所以我們的 range會比較大，會從比較微罪的類別來開始起跳，因為顧慮到不同群體在經濟上面的強弱勢差別……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委您這樣講本席比較沒有辦法認同，因為我們剛剛其實是從淺到深討論，第一，劃設保育區及劃設核心區、緩衝區是由審議會來決定，審議會本席就提醒你，你可以用公平、公正以及相關的委員來確認，所以審議會已經明白的確定什麼地方是緩衝區、什麼地方是核心區，確定之後，既然是通過審議會很公正的確定核心區，代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義，那就不應該再去。剛剛您指稱有優勢團體、有弱勢團體，好像是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體，本席也同意啊！本席的選區有很多漁民，但是既然我們要做弱勢團體的保護，核心區部分就應該好好的確認，如果核心區確認之後，那就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的保育工作，所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具……"],["管主任委員碧玲：讓我們更有 power，我瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，就是如果你們劃設出緩衝區、核心區，既然已經劃設出來，那個地方就應該是真真正正我們2,350萬人共同守護的核心區嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過跟委員報告，我們也會根據那個犯行，而不是說初犯就一定要從最低罰開始累計，我們會根據犯行，也會直接從……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然嘛！不然你也不會設一個 range，但本席也提到你們這個 range，第一，夠不夠？即便是核心區，從10萬到50萬，50萬夠不夠？這是第一個部分。第二個部分，如果到最後他還是持續的進入而沒有刑責的話，會不會也沒有嚇阻效用？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席來做結論，主委，我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前好像還沒有草案的版本是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們不需要對立，我們還是站在同一陣線，我覺得在海洋保育這一方面……"],["管主任委員碧玲：很感謝、很感謝，這真的是超越黨派……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院以及行政部門相信都站在同一陣線，因為海洋是我們共同的資產……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們有50%的氧氣是來自於海洋。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席會提出相關的法案，本席也會提出我的版本……"],["管主任委員碧玲：到底要不要改重罰……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論，並且也希望海委會主委以及相關行政官員能尊重並且參考本席所提版本的立法精神以及我們的條文精神好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝，我們都會……"],["洪委員孟楷：共同守護保育海洋，我們玩真的，不要玩假的可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們會說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：玩真的，不要玩假的可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這會拿出來已經都是很重要了……"],["洪委員孟楷：那就強力一點，玩真的，不要打假球好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前已經很有力了，今天也有很多委員說這樣漁民要怎麼辦？"],["洪委員孟楷：玩真的，不要打假球。"],["管主任委員碧玲：到時候我們好好來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是本席給海委會的期許和期待。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心、就是一個很強的power了。"],["洪委員孟楷：晚了3年，但是亡羊補牢猶未晚矣，玩真的，不要打假球。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝，委員提醒的利益迴避的那個個案，我們很高興，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那就請採納本席的意見，謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","下一位請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-6","speakers":["吳琪銘","王美惠","徐欣瑩","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃建賓","黃捷","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","丁學忠","陳冠廷"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計2案(一)海洋委員\n會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送該會決議(一)「海洋業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報\n告，請查照案、(二)海洋委員會函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送海洋保育署決議 (一)\n「海洋保育業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；二、邀請海洋委員會主任委員率同所屬\n列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查海洋委員會函，為 113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送\n海巡署及所屬決議(一)「海巡業務」預算凍結50萬元書面報告，請查照案；四、「海洋保育法草\n案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案、(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋\n保育法草案」案","agenda_id":"1131101_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"149809","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149809","tool":"pyannote","id":"149809-pyannote"},"job_id":"j6FvvvJ1YCuVFgPu","queued_at":"2024-06-02 04:30:18","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 04:31:53","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149809"},{"time":"2024-06-02 04:31:53","msg":"downloading 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\"score\": 0.598}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 630.253, \"end\": 630.273, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:09,602\n主席謝謝,麻煩請管主委。好,請我們管主委。公務員好。\n\n2\n00:00:10,558 --> 00:00:33,934\n管主委好管主委本席依照剛剛這個政天才委員的這個詢問我們繼續來探究海洋保育法其實是說實在話啦晚了三年大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後本來明訂兩年內就要有海洋保育法出來但是直直到了2024年我們這一次開議之前行政院才通過海洋保育法版本\n\n3\n00:00:35,134 --> 00:00:55,903\n本席也認為說實在話亡羊補牢猶未完矣重點是我們現在要趕快來做第10屆沒有辦法做到的政院版資沒有送出來第11屆加速辦理但是我們更要看到是說在這個草案出來之後有沒有散盡完整整個整事的一個部分所以第一想請教\n\n4\n00:00:57,263 --> 00:01:20,976\n剛才委員這邊有講到海洋庇護區我們有審議會要組成跟設置對不對這是在草案第7條裡面那目前審議會組成是由專家學者民間團體以及相關的這些代表人不得少於委員的二分之一那你們主要是想是說應該要確保這獨立性跟公正性那請教有關機關的代表有哪一些\n\n5\n00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:41,417\n要看比如說像經濟部門也會是漁業部門鐵定一定是原住民部門也鐵定一定是這是官方代表所以未來我們在執法的修訂上面會有一個機制但是以庇護區的話設來講非常非常直接的就是交通部門嘛因為有船舶航行航運嘛\n\n6\n00:01:43,039 --> 00:01:55,794\n經濟部門、海事工程、能源與漁業當然重中之重,原住民也一樣所以像這些主管機關,鐵定會是...所以我們審議會目前預計會有多少會委員?\n\n7\n00:01:58,097 --> 00:02:00,600\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案\n\n8\n00:02:14,076 --> 00:02:18,898\n您過去立法經驗那麼豐富您其實應該很了解這個才是重點啊因為每一個庇護區的話設我們要依據庇護區它所涉及的這個用海單位的相互之間的利用關係上面的特質是要浮動型的還是要固定型的這些在執法的討論的過程中本局詢問比較直接啦\n\n9\n00:02:41,269 --> 00:02:55,448\n包括剛剛鄭天才委員或是我們其他委員其實也有討論到就是說保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等那是不是應該在針對原住民身份的委員或是任意性別委員的比例要明定於法規裡面\n\n10\n00:02:56,469 --> 00:03:20,324\n跟委員報告不要只是在立法理由裡面嘛因為你立法理由其實有寫到我知道也確實在討論的時候這個也是一個爭點然後也討論了很久您認不認同那我剛剛有跟委員報告如果說我們把它明訂在這個法條裡面我們在精神上絕對是遂行這樣的精神但是法條的內容當初就是各方各方譬如說漁業是不是也要明訂\n\n11\n00:03:21,545 --> 00:03:33,029\n好那這個時候就會很多的討論的結果我們最後法條就是這樣設然後這樣來處理到大院裡面來討論到大院裡面來討論的時候我作為海委會的主委提出了這樣的版本已經千呼萬喚三年多的時間了也是行政院的院版\n\n12\n00:03:42,552 --> 00:04:07,161\n我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本我就是站在這個版本的立場但是廣泛的聽取所以不認為應該要增加民定於法條裡面嗎廣泛的聽取委員們的討論之後主委那再請教那是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則並且納入法律文字譬如說他可能有跟開發計畫有利益相關者或是曾經開於開發計畫環境影響評估作業者等於是\n\n13\n00:04:11,670 --> 00:04:30,896\n即便也有人講說這也要旋轉門條款嘛不要說變成是這審議會變成是到時候變成是某些開發對象的門審我們執法的時候來來考量這些項目好不好謝謝委員提出了我想這都是非常重要也是真真正正讓國人看到說我們海洋保育的\n\n14\n00:04:32,496 --> 00:04:47,767\n實際行動嗎?兩個概念一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方利益相關的各方但是各案來講我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的\n\n15\n00:04:48,567 --> 00:04:51,330\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。\n\n16\n00:05:14,671 --> 00:05:33,895\n所以我們現在也看到一個法令要棍子跟蘿蔔都要併施啊那現在我們有看到你的草案裡面有取締海洋保育相關的就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或是緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的對不對是罰多少錢\n\n17\n00:05:34,915 --> 00:05:38,016\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。\n\n18\n00:06:01,997 --> 00:06:30,097\n只有罰還沒有罰則沒有刑責所以我們現在也要問你覺得這樣子的一個獲主力夠不夠入刑是一個大問題這個大議題我想恐怕是但是要加強保育因為我們有海洋庇護區出來之後有緩衝區有核心區就一般人的認知所謂的核心區他就是應該是絕對禁止相關的這樣子的一個事從事相關的活動\n\n19\n00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,743\n這也是你的立法精神嘛那我們現在只講是說你的核心區罰還從10萬到50萬\n\n20\n00:06:38,075 --> 00:07:01,313\n第一來講這個到底夠不夠嚇阻譬如說有一些利益的一個部分再來第二就是說是不是應該要增強嚇阻的一個效果甚至所考慮行政委員報告海上的所有的用海單位有很優越優勢的群體譬如說它很可能是能源產業或是海事工程產業\n\n21\n00:07:02,654 --> 00:07:04,095\n主委您這樣講本身比較沒有辦法認同是因為\n\n22\n00:07:29,073 --> 00:07:50,844\n我們剛剛其實從淺到深來討論第一我們講說畫社保育區畫社核心區緩衝區是由審查會來決定審查會本席就提醒你你可以用公平公正以及相關的委員來去做確認所以第一你的審查會就已經要做明白的一個確認什麼地方是緩衝區什麼地方是核心區\n\n23\n00:07:51,764 --> 00:08:01,337\n那你確定出來之後既然通過審議會很公正的來確定核心區那代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義那就不應該再去剛剛您\n\n24\n00:08:03,665 --> 00:08:27,567\n指稱講說有優勢團體有劣勢團體好像認為是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體本席也同意啊本席的選區有很多的漁民啊但是既然我們要做這個弱勢團體的保護你就不應該核心區你就應該要好好的來做一個確認那如果說核心區都確認之後就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的這些保育的工作嘛\n\n25\n00:08:28,107 --> 00:08:43,372\n所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具當然就是如果說你們劃設出反中間核心區既然已經劃設出來那個地方就應該是真真正正我們共同2350萬人一起去守護的核心區嘛\n\n26\n00:08:43,712 --> 00:08:46,954\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。\n\n27\n00:09:13,792 --> 00:09:33,528\n主委我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富我們不需要我們還是站在統一陣線我覺得在海洋保育這一方面這一個立法院以及行政部門相信都站在統一陣線因為海洋是我們共同的資產所以本席會提出\n\n28\n00:09:35,970 --> 00:10:00,102\n本席會提出相關的一個法案本席也會提出我的版本我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論並且也希望海委會、主委以及相關的行政官員能尊重並且參考本席的立法精神以及我們的條文精神,好嗎?共同守護保護海洋我們玩真的不要玩假的,可以嗎?算一年不要算幾年可以嗎?\n\n29\n00:10:02,955 --> 00:10:15,402\n提出來已經是很重要的了,很無聊了。今天也有很多委員說,喔,這樣是要怎麼辦?所以這個報告時,我們也要考慮。我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心。玩了三年,但是王陽博老也未完異。玩真的,不要打假球。委員提醒的利益迴避的個案,我們很高興,謝謝委員。\n\n30\n00:10:30,012 --> 00:10:30,273\n請採納本席的意見。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t9602\t主席謝謝,麻煩請管主委。好,請我們管主委。公務員好。\n10558\t33934\t管主委好 管主委本席依照剛剛這個政天才委員的這個詢問我們繼續來探究海洋保育法其實是說實在話啦 晚了三年大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後本來明訂兩年內就要有海洋保育法出來但是直直到了2024年我們這一次開議之前行政院才通過海洋保育法版本\n35134\t55903\t本席也認為說實在話亡羊補牢猶未完矣重點是我們現在要趕快來做第10屆沒有辦法做到的政院版資沒有送出來第11屆加速辦理但是我們更要看到是說在這個草案出來之後有沒有散盡完整整個整事的一個部分所以第一想請教\n57263\t80976\t剛才委員這邊有講到海洋庇護區我們有審議會要組成跟設置對不對這是在草案第7條裡面那目前審議會組成是由專家學者民間團體以及相關的這些代表人不得少於委員的二分之一那你們主要是想是說應該要確保這獨立性跟公正性那請教有關機關的代表有哪一些\n82240\t101417\t要看比如說像經濟部門也會是漁業部門鐵定一定是原住民部門也鐵定一定是這是官方代表所以未來我們在執法的修訂上面會有一個機制但是以庇護區的話設來講非常非常直接的就是交通部門嘛因為有船舶航行航運嘛\n103039\t115794\t經濟部門、海事工程、能源與漁業當然重中之重,原住民也一樣所以像這些主管機關,鐵定會是...所以我們審議會目前預計會有多少會委員?\n118097\t120600\t海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案\n134076\t138898\t您過去立法經驗那麼豐富您其實應該很了解這個才是重點啊因為每一個庇護區的話設我們要依據庇護區它所涉及的這個用海單位的相互之間的利用關係上面的特質是要浮動型的還是要固定型的這些在執法的討論的過程中本局詢問比較直接啦\n161269\t175448\t包括剛剛鄭天才委員或是我們其他委員其實也有討論到就是說保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等那是不是應該在針對原住民身份的委員或是任意性別委員的比例要明定於法規裡面\n176469\t200324\t跟委員報告不要只是在立法理由裡面嘛因為你立法理由其實有寫到我知道也確實在討論的時候這個也是一個爭點然後也討論了很久您認不認同那我剛剛有跟委員報告如果說我們把它明訂在這個法條裡面我們在精神上絕對是遂行這樣的精神但是法條的內容當初就是各方各方譬如說漁業是不是也要明訂\n201545\t213029\t好那這個時候就會很多的討論的結果我們最後法條就是這樣設然後這樣來處理到大院裡面來討論到大院裡面來討論的時候我作為海委會的主委提出了這樣的版本已經千呼萬喚三年多的時間了也是行政院的院版\n222552\t247161\t我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本我就是站在這個版本的立場但是廣泛的聽取所以不認為應該要增加民定於法條裡面嗎廣泛的聽取委員們的討論之後主委那再請教那是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則並且納入法律文字譬如說他可能有跟開發計畫有利益相關者或是曾經開於開發計畫環境影響評估作業者等於是\n251670\t270896\t即便也有人講說這也要旋轉門條款嘛不要說變成是這審議會變成是到時候變成是某些開發對象的門審我們執法的時候來來考量這些項目好不好謝謝委員提出了我想這都是非常重要也是真真正正讓國人看到說我們海洋保育的\n272496\t287767\t實際行動嗎?兩個概念一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方利益相關的各方但是各案來講我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的\n288567\t291330\t海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。\n314671\t333895\t所以我們現在也看到一個法令要棍子跟蘿蔔都要併施啊那現在我們有看到你的草案裡面有取締海洋保育相關的就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或是緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的對不對是罰多少錢\n334915\t338016\t海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。\n361997\t390097\t只有罰還沒有罰則沒有刑責所以我們現在也要問你覺得這樣子的一個獲主力夠不夠入刑是一個大問題這個大議題我想恐怕是但是要加強保育因為我們有海洋庇護區出來之後有緩衝區有核心區就一般人的認知所謂的核心區他就是應該是絕對禁止相關的這樣子的一個事從事相關的活動\n391440\t394743\t這也是你的立法精神嘛那我們現在只講是說你的核心區罰還從10萬到50萬\n398075\t421313\t第一來講這個到底夠不夠嚇阻譬如說有一些利益的一個部分再來第二就是說是不是應該要增強嚇阻的一個效果甚至所考慮行政委員報告海上的所有的用海單位有很優越優勢的群體譬如說它很可能是能源產業或是海事工程產業\n422654\t424095\t主委您這樣講本身比較沒有辦法認同是因為\n449073\t470844\t我們剛剛其實從淺到深來討論第一我們講說畫社保育區畫社核心區緩衝區是由審查會來決定審查會本席就提醒你你可以用公平公正以及相關的委員來去做確認所以第一你的審查會就已經要做明白的一個確認什麼地方是緩衝區什麼地方是核心區\n471764\t481337\t那你確定出來之後既然通過審議會很公正的來確定核心區那代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義那就不應該再去剛剛您\n483665\t507567\t指稱講說有優勢團體有劣勢團體好像認為是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體本席也同意啊本席的選區有很多的漁民啊但是既然我們要做這個弱勢團體的保護你就不應該核心區你就應該要好好的來做一個確認那如果說核心區都確認之後就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的這些保育的工作嘛\n508107\t523372\t所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具當然就是如果說你們劃設出反中間核心區既然已經劃設出來那個地方就應該是真真正正我們共同2350萬人一起去守護的核心區嘛\n523712\t526954\t海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。\n553792\t573528\t主委我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富我們不需要我們還是站在統一陣線我覺得在海洋保育這一方面這一個立法院以及行政部門相信都站在統一陣線因為海洋是我們共同的資產所以本席會提出\n575970\t600102\t本席會提出相關的一個法案本席也會提出我的版本我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論並且也希望海委會、主委以及相關的行政官員能尊重並且參考本席的立法精神以及我們的條文精神,好嗎?共同守護保護海洋我們玩真的不要玩假的,可以嗎?算一年不要算幾年可以嗎?\n602955\t615402\t提出來已經是很重要的了,很無聊了。今天也有很多委員說,喔,這樣是要怎麼辦?所以這個報告時,我們也要考慮。我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心。玩了三年,但是王陽博老也未完異。玩真的,不要打假球。委員提醒的利益迴避的個案,我們很高興,謝謝委員。\n630012\t630273\t請採納本席的意見。\n","txt":"主席謝謝,麻煩請管主委。好,請我們管主委。公務員好。\n管主委好 管主委本席依照剛剛這個政天才委員的這個詢問我們繼續來探究海洋保育法其實是說實在話啦 晚了三年大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後本來明訂兩年內就要有海洋保育法出來但是直直到了2024年我們這一次開議之前行政院才通過海洋保育法版本\n本席也認為說實在話亡羊補牢猶未完矣重點是我們現在要趕快來做第10屆沒有辦法做到的政院版資沒有送出來第11屆加速辦理但是我們更要看到是說在這個草案出來之後有沒有散盡完整整個整事的一個部分所以第一想請教\n剛才委員這邊有講到海洋庇護區我們有審議會要組成跟設置對不對這是在草案第7條裡面那目前審議會組成是由專家學者民間團體以及相關的這些代表人不得少於委員的二分之一那你們主要是想是說應該要確保這獨立性跟公正性那請教有關機關的代表有哪一些\n要看比如說像經濟部門也會是漁業部門鐵定一定是原住民部門也鐵定一定是這是官方代表所以未來我們在執法的修訂上面會有一個機制但是以庇護區的話設來講非常非常直接的就是交通部門嘛因為有船舶航行航運嘛\n經濟部門、海事工程、能源與漁業當然重中之重,原住民也一樣所以像這些主管機關,鐵定會是...所以我們審議會目前預計會有多少會委員?\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案\n您過去立法經驗那麼豐富您其實應該很了解這個才是重點啊因為每一個庇護區的話設我們要依據庇護區它所涉及的這個用海單位的相互之間的利用關係上面的特質是要浮動型的還是要固定型的這些在執法的討論的過程中本局詢問比較直接啦\n包括剛剛鄭天才委員或是我們其他委員其實也有討論到就是說保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等那是不是應該在針對原住民身份的委員或是任意性別委員的比例要明定於法規裡面\n跟委員報告不要只是在立法理由裡面嘛因為你立法理由其實有寫到我知道也確實在討論的時候這個也是一個爭點然後也討論了很久您認不認同那我剛剛有跟委員報告如果說我們把它明訂在這個法條裡面我們在精神上絕對是遂行這樣的精神但是法條的內容當初就是各方各方譬如說漁業是不是也要明訂\n好那這個時候就會很多的討論的結果我們最後法條就是這樣設然後這樣來處理到大院裡面來討論到大院裡面來討論的時候我作為海委會的主委提出了這樣的版本已經千呼萬喚三年多的時間了也是行政院的院版\n我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本我就是站在這個版本的立場但是廣泛的聽取所以不認為應該要增加民定於法條裡面嗎廣泛的聽取委員們的討論之後主委那再請教那是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則並且納入法律文字譬如說他可能有跟開發計畫有利益相關者或是曾經開於開發計畫環境影響評估作業者等於是\n即便也有人講說這也要旋轉門條款嘛不要說變成是這審議會變成是到時候變成是某些開發對象的門審我們執法的時候來來考量這些項目好不好謝謝委員提出了我想這都是非常重要也是真真正正讓國人看到說我們海洋保育的\n實際行動嗎?兩個概念一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方利益相關的各方但是各案來講我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。\n所以我們現在也看到一個法令要棍子跟蘿蔔都要併施啊那現在我們有看到你的草案裡面有取締海洋保育相關的就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或是緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的對不對是罰多少錢\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。\n只有罰還沒有罰則沒有刑責所以我們現在也要問你覺得這樣子的一個獲主力夠不夠入刑是一個大問題這個大議題我想恐怕是但是要加強保育因為我們有海洋庇護區出來之後有緩衝區有核心區就一般人的認知所謂的核心區他就是應該是絕對禁止相關的這樣子的一個事從事相關的活動\n這也是你的立法精神嘛那我們現在只講是說你的核心區罰還從10萬到50萬\n第一來講這個到底夠不夠嚇阻譬如說有一些利益的一個部分再來第二就是說是不是應該要增強嚇阻的一個效果甚至所考慮行政委員報告海上的所有的用海單位有很優越優勢的群體譬如說它很可能是能源產業或是海事工程產業\n主委您這樣講本身比較沒有辦法認同是因為\n我們剛剛其實從淺到深來討論第一我們講說畫社保育區畫社核心區緩衝區是由審查會來決定審查會本席就提醒你你可以用公平公正以及相關的委員來去做確認所以第一你的審查會就已經要做明白的一個確認什麼地方是緩衝區什麼地方是核心區\n那你確定出來之後既然通過審議會很公正的來確定核心區那代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義那就不應該再去剛剛您\n指稱講說有優勢團體有劣勢團體好像認為是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體本席也同意啊本席的選區有很多的漁民啊但是既然我們要做這個弱勢團體的保護你就不應該核心區你就應該要好好的來做一個確認那如果說核心區都確認之後就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的這些保育的工作嘛\n所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具當然就是如果說你們劃設出反中間核心區既然已經劃設出來那個地方就應該是真真正正我們共同2350萬人一起去守護的核心區嘛\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。\n主委我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富我們不需要我們還是站在統一陣線我覺得在海洋保育這一方面這一個立法院以及行政部門相信都站在統一陣線因為海洋是我們共同的資產所以本席會提出\n本席會提出相關的一個法案本席也會提出我的版本我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論並且也希望海委會、主委以及相關的行政官員能尊重並且參考本席的立法精神以及我們的條文精神,好嗎?共同守護保護海洋我們玩真的不要玩假的,可以嗎?算一年不要算幾年可以嗎?\n提出來已經是很重要的了,很無聊了。今天也有很多委員說,喔,這樣是要怎麼辦?所以這個報告時,我們也要考慮。我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心。玩了三年,但是王陽博老也未完異。玩真的,不要打假球。委員提醒的利益迴避的個案,我們很高興,謝謝委員。\n請採納本席的意見。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:09.602\n主席謝謝,麻煩請管主委。好,請我們管主委。公務員好。\n\n00:10.558 --> 00:33.934\n管主委好管主委本席依照剛剛這個政天才委員的這個詢問我們繼續來探究海洋保育法其實是說實在話啦晚了三年大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後本來明訂兩年內就要有海洋保育法出來但是直直到了2024年我們這一次開議之前行政院才通過海洋保育法版本\n\n00:35.134 --> 00:55.903\n本席也認為說實在話亡羊補牢猶未完矣重點是我們現在要趕快來做第10屆沒有辦法做到的政院版資沒有送出來第11屆加速辦理但是我們更要看到是說在這個草案出來之後有沒有散盡完整整個整事的一個部分所以第一想請教\n\n00:57.263 --> 01:20.976\n剛才委員這邊有講到海洋庇護區我們有審議會要組成跟設置對不對這是在草案第7條裡面那目前審議會組成是由專家學者民間團體以及相關的這些代表人不得少於委員的二分之一那你們主要是想是說應該要確保這獨立性跟公正性那請教有關機關的代表有哪一些\n\n01:22.240 --> 01:41.417\n要看比如說像經濟部門也會是漁業部門鐵定一定是原住民部門也鐵定一定是這是官方代表所以未來我們在執法的修訂上面會有一個機制但是以庇護區的話設來講非常非常直接的就是交通部門嘛因為有船舶航行航運嘛\n\n01:43.039 --> 01:55.794\n經濟部門、海事工程、能源與漁業當然重中之重,原住民也一樣所以像這些主管機關,鐵定會是...所以我們審議會目前預計會有多少會委員?\n\n01:58.097 --> 02:00.600\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案\n\n02:14.076 --> 02:18.898\n您過去立法經驗那麼豐富您其實應該很了解這個才是重點啊因為每一個庇護區的話設我們要依據庇護區它所涉及的這個用海單位的相互之間的利用關係上面的特質是要浮動型的還是要固定型的這些在執法的討論的過程中本局詢問比較直接啦\n\n02:41.269 --> 02:55.448\n包括剛剛鄭天才委員或是我們其他委員其實也有討論到就是說保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等那是不是應該在針對原住民身份的委員或是任意性別委員的比例要明定於法規裡面\n\n02:56.469 --> 03:20.324\n跟委員報告不要只是在立法理由裡面嘛因為你立法理由其實有寫到我知道也確實在討論的時候這個也是一個爭點然後也討論了很久您認不認同那我剛剛有跟委員報告如果說我們把它明訂在這個法條裡面我們在精神上絕對是遂行這樣的精神但是法條的內容當初就是各方各方譬如說漁業是不是也要明訂\n\n03:21.545 --> 03:33.029\n好那這個時候就會很多的討論的結果我們最後法條就是這樣設然後這樣來處理到大院裡面來討論到大院裡面來討論的時候我作為海委會的主委提出了這樣的版本已經千呼萬喚三年多的時間了也是行政院的院版\n\n03:42.552 --> 04:07.161\n我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本我就是站在這個版本的立場但是廣泛的聽取所以不認為應該要增加民定於法條裡面嗎廣泛的聽取委員們的討論之後主委那再請教那是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則並且納入法律文字譬如說他可能有跟開發計畫有利益相關者或是曾經開於開發計畫環境影響評估作業者等於是\n\n04:11.670 --> 04:30.896\n即便也有人講說這也要旋轉門條款嘛不要說變成是這審議會變成是到時候變成是某些開發對象的門審我們執法的時候來來考量這些項目好不好謝謝委員提出了我想這都是非常重要也是真真正正讓國人看到說我們海洋保育的\n\n04:32.496 --> 04:47.767\n實際行動嗎?兩個概念一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方利益相關的各方但是各案來講我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的\n\n04:48.567 --> 04:51.330\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。\n\n05:14.671 --> 05:33.895\n所以我們現在也看到一個法令要棍子跟蘿蔔都要併施啊那現在我們有看到你的草案裡面有取締海洋保育相關的就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或是緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的對不對是罰多少錢\n\n05:34.915 --> 05:38.016\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。\n\n06:01.997 --> 06:30.097\n只有罰還沒有罰則沒有刑責所以我們現在也要問你覺得這樣子的一個獲主力夠不夠入刑是一個大問題這個大議題我想恐怕是但是要加強保育因為我們有海洋庇護區出來之後有緩衝區有核心區就一般人的認知所謂的核心區他就是應該是絕對禁止相關的這樣子的一個事從事相關的活動\n\n06:31.440 --> 06:34.743\n這也是你的立法精神嘛那我們現在只講是說你的核心區罰還從10萬到50萬\n\n06:38.075 --> 07:01.313\n第一來講這個到底夠不夠嚇阻譬如說有一些利益的一個部分再來第二就是說是不是應該要增強嚇阻的一個效果甚至所考慮行政委員報告海上的所有的用海單位有很優越優勢的群體譬如說它很可能是能源產業或是海事工程產業\n\n07:02.654 --> 07:04.095\n主委您這樣講本身比較沒有辦法認同是因為\n\n07:29.073 --> 07:50.844\n我們剛剛其實從淺到深來討論第一我們講說畫社保育區畫社核心區緩衝區是由審查會來決定審查會本席就提醒你你可以用公平公正以及相關的委員來去做確認所以第一你的審查會就已經要做明白的一個確認什麼地方是緩衝區什麼地方是核心區\n\n07:51.764 --> 08:01.337\n那你確定出來之後既然通過審議會很公正的來確定核心區那代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義那就不應該再去剛剛您\n\n08:03.665 --> 08:27.567\n指稱講說有優勢團體有劣勢團體好像認為是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體本席也同意啊本席的選區有很多的漁民啊但是既然我們要做這個弱勢團體的保護你就不應該核心區你就應該要好好的來做一個確認那如果說核心區都確認之後就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的這些保育的工作嘛\n\n08:28.107 --> 08:43.372\n所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具當然就是如果說你們劃設出反中間核心區既然已經劃設出來那個地方就應該是真真正正我們共同2350萬人一起去守護的核心區嘛\n\n08:43.712 --> 08:46.954\n海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。\n\n09:13.792 --> 09:33.528\n主委我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富我們不需要我們還是站在統一陣線我覺得在海洋保育這一方面這一個立法院以及行政部門相信都站在統一陣線因為海洋是我們共同的資產所以本席會提出\n\n09:35.970 --> 10:00.102\n本席會提出相關的一個法案本席也會提出我的版本我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論並且也希望海委會、主委以及相關的行政官員能尊重並且參考本席的立法精神以及我們的條文精神,好嗎?共同守護保護海洋我們玩真的不要玩假的,可以嗎?算一年不要算幾年可以嗎?\n\n10:02.955 --> 10:15.402\n提出來已經是很重要的了,很無聊了。今天也有很多委員說,喔,這樣是要怎麼辦?所以這個報告時,我們也要考慮。我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心。玩了三年,但是王陽博老也未完異。玩真的,不要打假球。委員提醒的利益迴避的個案,我們很高興,謝謝委員。\n\n10:30.012 --> 10:30.273\n請採納本席的意見。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":9.602,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請管主委。好,請我們管主委。公務員好。"},{"start":10.558,"end":33.934,"text":"管主委好 管主委本席依照剛剛這個政天才委員的這個詢問我們繼續來探究海洋保育法其實是說實在話啦 晚了三年大家都知道海洋基本法2019年通過之後本來明訂兩年內就要有海洋保育法出來但是直直到了2024年我們這一次開議之前行政院才通過海洋保育法版本"},{"start":35.134,"end":55.903,"text":"本席也認為說實在話亡羊補牢猶未完矣重點是我們現在要趕快來做第10屆沒有辦法做到的政院版資沒有送出來第11屆加速辦理但是我們更要看到是說在這個草案出來之後有沒有散盡完整整個整事的一個部分所以第一想請教"},{"start":57.263,"end":80.976,"text":"剛才委員這邊有講到海洋庇護區我們有審議會要組成跟設置對不對這是在草案第7條裡面那目前審議會組成是由專家學者民間團體以及相關的這些代表人不得少於委員的二分之一那你們主要是想是說應該要確保這獨立性跟公正性那請教有關機關的代表有哪一些"},{"start":82.24,"end":101.417,"text":"要看比如說像經濟部門也會是漁業部門鐵定一定是原住民部門也鐵定一定是這是官方代表所以未來我們在執法的修訂上面會有一個機制但是以庇護區的話設來講非常非常直接的就是交通部門嘛因為有船舶航行航運嘛"},{"start":103.039,"end":115.794,"text":"經濟部門、海事工程、能源與漁業當然重中之重,原住民也一樣所以像這些主管機關,鐵定會是...所以我們審議會目前預計會有多少會委員?"},{"start":118.097,"end":120.6,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案"},{"start":134.076,"end":138.898,"text":"您過去立法經驗那麼豐富您其實應該很了解這個才是重點啊因為每一個庇護區的話設我們要依據庇護區它所涉及的這個用海單位的相互之間的利用關係上面的特質是要浮動型的還是要固定型的這些在執法的討論的過程中本局詢問比較直接啦"},{"start":161.269,"end":175.448,"text":"包括剛剛鄭天才委員或是我們其他委員其實也有討論到就是說保障原住民權益以及國家性別平等政策等等那是不是應該在針對原住民身份的委員或是任意性別委員的比例要明定於法規裡面"},{"start":176.469,"end":200.324,"text":"跟委員報告不要只是在立法理由裡面嘛因為你立法理由其實有寫到我知道也確實在討論的時候這個也是一個爭點然後也討論了很久您認不認同那我剛剛有跟委員報告如果說我們把它明訂在這個法條裡面我們在精神上絕對是遂行這樣的精神但是法條的內容當初就是各方各方譬如說漁業是不是也要明訂"},{"start":201.545,"end":213.029,"text":"好那這個時候就會很多的討論的結果我們最後法條就是這樣設然後這樣來處理到大院裡面來討論到大院裡面來討論的時候我作為海委會的主委提出了這樣的版本已經千呼萬喚三年多的時間了也是行政院的院版"},{"start":222.552,"end":247.161,"text":"我的立場絕對就是捍衛這個版本我就是站在這個版本的立場但是廣泛的聽取所以不認為應該要增加民定於法條裡面嗎廣泛的聽取委員們的討論之後主委那再請教那是不是認同委員聘任也應該要遵守利益迴避原則並且納入法律文字譬如說他可能有跟開發計畫有利益相關者或是曾經開於開發計畫環境影響評估作業者等於是"},{"start":251.67,"end":270.896,"text":"即便也有人講說這也要旋轉門條款嘛不要說變成是這審議會變成是到時候變成是某些開發對象的門審我們執法的時候來來考量這些項目好不好謝謝委員提出了我想這都是非常重要也是真真正正讓國人看到說我們海洋保育的"},{"start":272.496,"end":287.767,"text":"實際行動嗎?兩個概念一個概念當然是用海單位利益衝突的各方利益相關的各方但是各案來講我覺得遵守利益迴避是有必要的"},{"start":288.567,"end":291.33,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":314.671,"end":333.895,"text":"所以我們現在也看到一個法令要棍子跟蘿蔔都要併施啊那現在我們有看到你的草案裡面有取締海洋保育相關的就是違反進入海洋庇護區的核心區或是緩衝區從事禁止活動是有罰款的對不對是罰多少錢"},{"start":334.915,"end":338.016,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":361.997,"end":390.097,"text":"只有罰還沒有罰則沒有刑責所以我們現在也要問你覺得這樣子的一個獲主力夠不夠入刑是一個大問題這個大議題我想恐怕是但是要加強保育因為我們有海洋庇護區出來之後有緩衝區有核心區就一般人的認知所謂的核心區他就是應該是絕對禁止相關的這樣子的一個事從事相關的活動"},{"start":391.44,"end":394.743,"text":"這也是你的立法精神嘛那我們現在只講是說你的核心區罰還從10萬到50萬"},{"start":398.075,"end":421.313,"text":"第一來講這個到底夠不夠嚇阻譬如說有一些利益的一個部分再來第二就是說是不是應該要增強嚇阻的一個效果甚至所考慮行政委員報告海上的所有的用海單位有很優越優勢的群體譬如說它很可能是能源產業或是海事工程產業"},{"start":422.654,"end":424.095,"text":"主委您這樣講本身比較沒有辦法認同是因為"},{"start":449.073,"end":470.844,"text":"我們剛剛其實從淺到深來討論第一我們講說畫社保育區畫社核心區緩衝區是由審查會來決定審查會本席就提醒你你可以用公平公正以及相關的委員來去做確認所以第一你的審查會就已經要做明白的一個確認什麼地方是緩衝區什麼地方是核心區"},{"start":471.764,"end":481.337,"text":"那你確定出來之後既然通過審議會很公正的來確定核心區那代表那個地方確實有保育的價值跟意義那就不應該再去剛剛您"},{"start":483.665,"end":507.567,"text":"指稱講說有優勢團體有劣勢團體好像認為是說我們要保障這些弱勢團體本席也同意啊本席的選區有很多的漁民啊但是既然我們要做這個弱勢團體的保護你就不應該核心區你就應該要好好的來做一個確認那如果說核心區都確認之後就不應該有任何人去影響核心區的這些保育的工作嘛"},{"start":508.107,"end":523.372,"text":"所以本席現在提出來反而是要幫助海委會增加執法工具當然就是如果說你們劃設出反中間核心區既然已經劃設出來那個地方就應該是真真正正我們共同2350萬人一起去守護的核心區嘛"},{"start":523.712,"end":526.954,"text":"海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告案。 海洋委員會函．為113年度中央政府總預算凍結50萬元書面報告。"},{"start":553.792,"end":573.528,"text":"主委我想您過去那麼多的立法經驗豐富我們不需要我們還是站在統一陣線我覺得在海洋保育這一方面這一個立法院以及行政部門相信都站在統一陣線因為海洋是我們共同的資產所以本席會提出"},{"start":575.97,"end":600.102,"text":"本席會提出相關的一個法案本席也會提出我的版本我們希望在進行討論的時候好好的討論並且也希望海委會、主委以及相關的行政官員能尊重並且參考本席的立法精神以及我們的條文精神,好嗎?共同守護保護海洋我們玩真的不要玩假的,可以嗎?算一年不要算幾年可以嗎?"},{"start":602.955,"end":615.402,"text":"提出來已經是很重要的了,很無聊了。今天也有很多委員說,喔,這樣是要怎麼辦?所以這個報告時,我們也要考慮。我覺得送出來就是一個很大的決心。玩了三年,但是王陽博老也未完異。玩真的,不要打假球。委員提醒的利益迴避的個案,我們很高興,謝謝委員。"},{"start":630.012,"end":630.273,"text":"請採納本席的意見。"}]}}}}