{"id":149815,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903e751ded81de8e32814b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a6f711b04a562537095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:53:28 - 11:59:54","影片長度":"00:06:26","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":386,"end_time":"2024-03-13T11:59:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T11:53:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":948,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時53分）感謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：李委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我今天只有4分鐘而已。在上一次勞動部的工作報告當中，我提出來我們失業率整體是降低的，我看到你的工作報告內容，確實沒有錯，包括15歲到29歲的失業率，其實在金融海嘯之後也創了新低，這些都是事實沒有錯。但是我覺得勞動部還有一個更關鍵的數據跟報告沒有呈現在上一次勞動部的工作報告當中，就是非典型就業人口在過去4年來創了新高，達到80.6萬人，這一塊數據占整體勞動力的比例，部長，你覺得非典型就業人口在未來會增加還是會減少？你預估，你感覺到。"],["許部長銘春：我覺得現在的年輕人對於工作自由的選擇，會是他決定工作職類很重要的考量因素，所以我是覺得未來有可能會增加。"],["李委員彥秀：對！你跟我的看法一樣，我們看了韓國，我們看了日本，非典型就業人口應該是往上走的趨勢，因為很多年輕人他希望有彈性，工時要更靈活，當然非典型有不同的就業模式和方式。但是我相信你也非常清楚知道，在疫情過後，遠距的上班方式或電傳勞動的方式越來越多，過去傳統用這種指揮監督、管理強度的方式來決定他到底是僱傭或承攬，其實接下來會受到越來越多的挑戰。","部長，像之前我們常常在開會討論，包括Uber Eats跟foodpanda，我自己在基層走的時候，常常聽到外送員跟我講說他們被片面地調降外送獎金，突然一個公告就說這個月要調降，或者是增加外送的里程數，這個是不是叫做片面地修改勞動條件？這個算嘛？"],["許部長銘春：算。"],["李委員彥秀：你同意嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["李委員彥秀：你們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟陳情的件數多不多？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，一發現有這個問題，我們馬上就會透過我們的對話平臺，其實這幾年我們有建立外送業者及外送工會的一個對話平臺，針對相關的爭議，包括像……"],["李委員彥秀：多嘛！對不對？重點是多嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我個人認為在非典型就業的模式上，我們應該要有更多的法規去保障勞工相關的權益，你同不同意？所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修，那你們的看法到底如何？"],["許部長銘春：因為外送跟派遣可能不太一樣，派遣的部分，那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭，所以在……"],["李委員彥秀：對，假承攬真僱傭，其實在這幾塊，勞動部接下來要面臨很大的挑戰和問題。"],["許部長銘春：委員，我記得我剛上任時，我們一起努力做了一些……"],["李委員彥秀：法規上的調整。"],["許部長銘春：法規上的調整，但是外送這一塊，我向委員報告，的確這一塊不容易啦！一直有人呼籲我們立專法，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你可以做嗎？或是你不能做的理由是什麼，要讓外界知道……"],["許部長銘春：不是，因為這個部分……"],["李委員彥秀：因為我在基層我都答應說我會幫他們爭取權益，我不能讓他們的權益突然說里程要增加或突然降低外送獎金，我覺得這是不合理的。"],["許部長銘春：對。其實對外送員的部分，我們在政策上是先從譬如說他的安全，還有他的薪酬保障，還有他的保險方面，我們去要求外送業者要做一些對他們有利的措施。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我知道你說的這些都是長期在做，但是對外送員來說，這可能是他的第二份工作、第三份工作，因為薪資不夠嘛！但是片面地去修正，如何在勞雇的過程當中，保障更大的權益、更多的權益……"],["許部長銘春：是，所以我們透過……"],["李委員彥秀：我們因應的方式到底是什麼，我覺得要更具體。我之前當立委是4年前，那都是我們4年前的修法，但是這幾年可能投入這些外送員的……"],["許部長銘春：對，那是派遣的部分，跟外送不太一樣。"],["李委員彥秀：派遣也好，外送員也好，越來越多，所以我覺得我們的法令是要越走越往前去進步、去涵蓋，照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們現在就是先透過對話的機制，剛剛我講的那個平臺其實也有發揮它的效果，對平臺業者有達成約束的效果，但是長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制，對這個……"],["李委員彥秀：什麼機制？因為這個機制我等很久，部長，我不是在考你，因為現在外送員越來越多，派遣的人員也越來越多，所以我們不能原地踏步。4年前我覺得我們有做一些努力，但是過去這4年我看到這一塊是很空的，我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋，照顧他們這些權益要照顧得更多，所以我在等待，既然未來非典型就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多，那在法規上，我們的因應方式到底是什麼？包括派遣，非典裡面有分很多，我們的因應方式是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：我會來積極……"],["李委員彥秀：這個是你最重要的業務，部長，我不用大聲跟你講，但是你非常清楚這一塊，年輕人非常重視這一塊，他們也都在等，為什麼這一次那麼多年輕人不支持你們？我在路上拜票，我天天都看到他們在罵民進黨，所以這一塊要做好！因為投入這一塊市場，很多都是年輕人，部長，我提醒你趕快做好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員。現在處理臨時提案，總共有3案，請一併宣讀。","一、","案由：鑑於「促進新住民就業補助作業要點」第二條第三項第一款所指「新住民」，排除了「歸化（取得）國籍」之「外裔、外籍配偶」，導致超過14萬新住民，因此喪失參加勞發署所開設「新住民專班」之資格，故未能由勞動部「全額補助其訓練費用」並獲發「職業訓練生活津貼」。爰此，建請勞動部於兩個月內修正「促進新住民就業補助作業要點」，放寬第二條第三項第一款所指之「新住民」範圍，納入「歸化（取得）國籍」之外國人，確保政府照顧新住民群體之美意得以落實。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：盧縣一　　邱鎮軍","二、","案由：鑑於我國新住民人數正式於民國112年超越全體原住民人數，達到59.2萬人之多，已經成為台灣社會重要的新興族裔。惟勞動部並未針對新住民進行就業調查，僅能由內政部移民署每五年進行的「新住民生活需求調查」中，擷取部分內容作為新住民就業政策之參考。爰此，建請勞動部於兩個月內，研議針對新住民群體進行「年度就業調查」之可行性，並報告社會福利及衛生環境委員會，確保政府照顧新住民群體之美意得以落實，避免政府制訂相關政策方向失真。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：盧縣一　　邱鎮軍","三、","勞動部針對外國人從事家庭幫傭工作之我國僱主資格，依現行法規「外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準」第12條規定，僅由家戶成員符合「有3名以上之年齡6歲以下子女」或有4名以上之年齡12歲以下子女，且其中2名為年齡6歲以下」條件之一，且累計點數滿十六點者，始得申請招募或承接外國人。現行規定，對於台灣多數有僱用家庭幫傭需求的家庭，是可望而不可及。","上述規定，不符合現今國內家庭多為小家庭或少子女之現狀，且目前多為雙薪家庭，需在工作與養育子女上兼顧，增加不少年輕生育家庭壓力。","為減緩台灣家庭壓力，爰要求勞動部於三個月內，研議放寬審查標準，修正相關規定符合台灣家庭現況所需之方案，向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出書面報告，是否有當？敬請　公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍　　陳菁徽"],["主席：請問第1案行政單位有無意見？"],["蔡署長孟良：第1案沒有意見。"],["主席：委員OK啦？好，照案通過。","請問第2案行政單位或委員有無意見？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員會，第2案的文字也跟委員這邊做溝通，是不是建議做部分修正？倒數第3行原來是「並報告社會福利及衛生環境委員會」，把「報告」改成「向」，「並向社會福利及衛生環境委員會」後面加「提出書面報告」，後面的文字沒有修正。"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？OK，無異議就照案通過。","第1案後來又加了幾個文字，剛剛第1案就照文字修正通過。第2案也是涂委員這邊……"],["涂委員權吉：都沒問題。"],["主席：也是照文字修正通過。","接下來第3案。"],["蔡署長孟良：第3案跟各位委員報告，因為很多委員在關心幫傭申請資格的點數，過去社會對這個議題確實有非常多不同意見，也擔心對婦女就業或是對幼兒成長造成影響，不過現在整個點數在長期執行之後，可能跟社會現況，因為可能有一些單薪或雙薪家庭有家庭照顧上的問題，所以大家確實有一些意見是說這個點數是不是必須要做一些檢討。那這個提案我們跟委員有溝通，原來委員是說要把它降到1點，我們認為1點可能會影響衝擊太大，也建議必須要留有一些研議的空間，所以在文字上我們是建議，是不是讓我們跟社會各界研議相關的標準，然後符合社會的現況與現實的情形？"],["主席：請提案委員蘇清泉委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝主席。現在沒有人要生小孩，要叫人家生4個孩子，孩子要6歲以下，你是神經病嗎？什麼12歲以下，這個太糟糕！陳菁徽委員自己有3個小孩，她都沒有資格申請。你要叫人家生，還要叫人家上班，還要怎麼樣，這個太糟糕，所以一定要放寬，你不要給我研議完以後又走回頭路，不行耶！部長，這樣不行哦！所以這個留空間讓你們去研議，我沒有意見，但是一定要放寬啦！這個很重要很重要，以上。"],["主席：第3案是不是有文字……"],["林委員淑芬：主席，我有其他意見。"],["主席：好，淑芬委員。"],["林委員淑芬：各位，我們支持不管是育兒還是老人都要有人照顧，但是我們在講開放家事服務工、看護工，我們從看護老人開始看就知道，外傭、外籍移工不是解方啊！現在老人每天在那裡吵架的很多哦！那整個國家不管，然後也沒有配套。","1個月以2萬元的薪水，事實上我們請過看護工的人都知道不是2萬元，現在私底下的成本你沒有到3萬元是不行的，可是如果家庭幫傭的薪水2萬元不可能，然後3萬元你叫他又要做家事，又要煮三餐，然後還要一打二，照顧兩個小孩，還24小時週休0天，可能週休給加班費就沒有了，然後可能年休看看有沒有幾天。我告訴你，每一個照顧小孩的外籍幫傭可能最後都想要轉換雇主，然後他就每天跟你吵架，說我要去廠工那裡，我要去產業界，因為產業界的工時，禮拜一到禮拜五即便是加班也有止盡的時候，不是無止無盡，不是1天24小時。而且產業界的勞工加班，薪水還比較高，一個月領5萬、6萬，然後他可以週休至少1日，1例1休也是至少1日，他遇到該休的都有勞基法保障，所以在這種狀況裡面，他要做家事，然後又要無止無盡，半夜孩子哭還要起來顧，1天24小時，然後又要煮三餐，然後一打二，到時候兒虐的狀況也會出現啊！然後薪水領這麼少，他不會去跟雇主吵架一直鬧嗎？","當然我們不是在講這個而已，我不是要講這個，我是說外籍幫傭不是萬靈丹，不是一勞永逸。你要想誰需要，不能夠因為生小孩而失去工作，這種經濟需求這麼強烈的人，不能離職的人，他們有能力去聘請幫傭嗎？連辭職都不行，一定要去工作才能夠支付一家所需，這樣的婦女有能力申請外籍幫傭嗎？申請得到，現在的年輕人家裡有足夠的房間可以讓這個外籍幫傭一起睡嗎？居住空間夠嗎？所以這樣的政策是真正的解決方法嗎？","更不要講現在本國的中高齡婦女二度就業，其實就是到宅服務和家事清潔，我們還知道現在育兒照顧、到宅服務的保母等等，都還需要證照制度，而你破壞現在的證照制度，找一個外傭來就可以吃喝拉撒睡。我當媽媽的時候，我也是兩個小孩，你知道我最想做的是什麼嗎？我最想做的就是去上班，因為在家裡面又要做家事，又要照顧兩個小孩，我心力交瘁，我寧願去上班，我覺得上班是休息，那你覺得那個幫傭他不會這麼想嗎？發生兒虐的時候怎麼辦？語言不通怎麼辦？教養上怎麼辦？把專業的照顧變成好像隨隨便便都可以做，這不是走回頭路嗎？那你到底有多少從業人員會失業？","我再講一個，現在長照是一個福利政策，但是我們都知道長照最終要銜接到保險制度，如果跟長照一樣，有大量的看護工在那裡，要銜接過去是很困難的，如果你再繼續放寬，我跟你講，長照的保險制度是不可能的，你知道這樣會變成什麼？變成窮老人、窮失能的人沒有人照顧，因為沒有國家級的社會保險，沒有這個長照保險，然後有能力請的都去請外勞，沒能力請的就沒人顧，不然就變成家裡面最可憐的那個老女人繼續顧，所以在這種狀況裡面，我們以前車之鑑來看，兒照的從業人員會不會被衝擊到？如果外籍幫傭就可以解決，那我們公共托育也不用做了嘛！全部都靠外傭來就好了！所以請得起外傭的就用外傭，請不起的就公共托育，公共托育品質會不會每況愈下啊？因為大家覺得資源不用花那麼多，有錢人都已經有外傭了，其他就隨便做一做。","我的意思是說，我們認為這個東西，社會會有這種狀況都是因為政府做得太少，所以才產生這個問題，讓我們工作跟育兒只能擇一，可是你要想到經濟最弱勢的，他工作跟育兒都不能擇一啊！他必須都要有，那他怎麼辦？所以我們在想說包括彈性親子假等等，這個配套要做得好，這已經是刻不容緩了，所以部長，不是光在這裡說你們回去研議開放外傭，除了長照以外，你的親子假要到12歲的，不是外傭顧到6歲而已，6歲之後父母就不用再顧小孩嗎？就不用再參與了嗎？就沒有親子假的需求了嗎？當然有啊！這個外傭開放了以後，可以解決6到12歲的嗎？也沒辦法啊！所以現在政府的角色要進來，不管是照顧老的還是照顧小的，最重要的是政府要拿出手段。","現在在朝公共化、準公共化，另外還要再開放讓幫傭多一點，公共化還需要做嗎？都靠外傭，你全部都補助申請外傭就好了，然後一個外傭顧兩個，煮飯、打掃還要24小時全年無休，你看他會不會抓狂？然後你的社福人力再增加一點，兒虐就又出來了，所以我的意思是說，這是誇張極致，但是我們今天要凸顯的是，政府該有的制度面要進來啦！不是只有服務經濟能力好的、家庭空間夠的，那經濟能力差的、家庭空間不夠的人要怎麼辦？難道我就沒有生小孩的權利嗎？難道我就沒有照顧兩個的權利嗎？然後政府都不用進來幫忙照顧嗎？好，大概是這樣子。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。","剛剛署長有特別提到，第3案臨時提案有做文字修正，是不是文字修正完之後讓蘇委員看過？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為有和蘇委員這邊溝通，所以原來委員所提的「累計點數一點」，這個部分同意修正，修正之後就給予我們一些空間，我們來跟社會各界再做一些研議。"],["主席：這樣可以嗎？可以，那就照文字修正通過。","接下來請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊曜","王育敏","李坤城","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","羅智強","牛煦庭","劉建國","王鴻薇","張雅琳","黃仁","吳春城","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林德福","葉元之"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"149815","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149815","tool":"pyannote","id":"149815-pyannote"},"job_id":"QwWmvP98r6XQYGl8","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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0.915}, {\"word\": \"走\", \"start\": 379.147, \"end\": 379.327, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 379.327, \"end\": 379.447, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 379.447, \"end\": 379.467, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 379.467, \"end\": 379.628, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 379.628, \"end\": 379.648, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,277 --> 00:00:03,178\n在上一次的我們勞動部的工作報告當中我提出來我們失業率整體是降低的我看到你的工作報告內容確實沒有錯但是包括我們15歲到29歲失業率其實在金融海嘯之後我們也創了新低\n\n2\n00:00:26,665 --> 00:00:42,634\n這些其實都是事實沒有錯但是我覺得勞動部還有一個更關鍵的數據跟報告沒有呈現在上一次的我們勞動部工作報告當中就是我們非典型的就業人口在過去4年來創了新高達到80.6萬人這一塊數據其實佔整體勞動力的比例未來部長你覺得非典型就業人口在未來會增加還是會減少\n\n3\n00:00:54,600 --> 00:01:11,312\n你預估你感覺到我覺得現在的現在年輕人啊都對工作自由的這個那個選擇會是他的決定工作的之類的很重要的考量的因素啦那所以未來有可能會增加我是覺得對\n\n4\n00:01:12,313 --> 00:01:38,824\n對你跟我的看法一樣我們看韓國我們看日本非典型的就業人口應該是往上在走的趨勢因為很多年現在就他希望有彈性工時要更靈活這個就是未來當然非典型有不同的不同的就業的模式跟方式但是我相信你也非常清楚知道說在疫後在疫情過後大家遠距的上班方式或電動電船勞動的方式其實都越來越多我們過去傳統的用這種\n\n5\n00:01:42,085 --> 00:02:09,415\n強重強度堅指揮監督管理強弱方式來決定他到底是雇佣跟承承染其實接下來會受到越來越多的挑戰喔部長你同不同意包括像之前我們常在開會討論包括ubere跟fulpanda他們常常我我我自己在接基層走的時候我常常聽到外送人在跟我講說他們常常被片面的去呃調降外送獎金\n\n6\n00:02:10,075 --> 00:02:32,016\n突然一個公告就是說這個月要調價或者是增加外送的里程數這個是不是叫做片面的修改這個勞動條件這個算嗎你同意嗎我們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟曾經的建樹多不多這個部分一發現有這個問題馬上就要透過我們一個對話平台\n\n7\n00:02:34,699 --> 00:02:56,915\n我們這幾年就有建立那個我們的外送業者跟那個這些外送工會的一個對話平台針對相關的爭議包括像說多馬對不對重點是多馬對所以我更認為在非典型的就業的模式上我覺得我們應該要有更多的法規也好來去保障\n\n8\n00:02:58,156 --> 00:03:05,923\n勞工相關的權益你同嗎所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修那你們的看法到底如何\n\n9\n00:03:07,014 --> 00:03:35,869\n之前那個因為外送跟派遣這個可能不太一樣派遣的部分我們那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭對假承攬真僱傭就這幾塊其實都是我們現在勞動部接下來面臨很大的挑戰的問題我記得我們剛上任我們一起努力做了一些法規上的調整那但是外送這一塊我是跟委員報告就是說的確這一塊不容易一直有人希望我們立專法的這個呼\n\n10\n00:03:37,670 --> 00:04:05,769\n所以你到底可以做嗎?你不能做的理由是怎麼樣讓外界知道因為我在記者我都答應說我會幫你們爭取權益我覺得我不能讓你們的權益突然說里程要增加或突然降低那個外送的獎金我覺得這是不合理的我們其實對外送員的部分我們的政策上就是說先從比如說他的安全還有他的這些薪酬的保障還有他的這個保險方面\n\n11\n00:04:06,369 --> 00:04:34,863\n好,我們去要求外送業者要做一些對他們有利的一些措施啦。部長,我知道,你說了這些都要回去做,但對外送員來說他可能這是他的第二份工作,第三份工作,因為薪資不夠嘛。但是片面的去修正如何在他們這個勞僱的過程當中保障更大的權益,更多的權益,我們因應的方式到底是什麼,我覺得要更具體,否則\n\n12\n00:04:36,104 --> 00:05:04,627\n我之前那個我之前當立委是4年前那都是我們4年前的修法但這幾年可能投入這些外送員的那個對那是派遣的部分派遣也好外送員也好越來越多所以我覺得我們的法律是要越走越往前去進步去涵蓋照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對我們現在就是先透過對話的機制剛剛我講的那個平台它其實也有發揮它的效果\n\n13\n00:05:04,827 --> 00:05:21,695\n吼有對平台業者有達成約束的一個效果了吼所以但是呃長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制吼對什麼其實因為這個其實我等很久部長我不是在考你因為現在外送人員越來越多派遣的人越來越多\n\n14\n00:05:22,435 --> 00:05:48,162\n所以我們不能原地踏步四年前我覺得我們有做一些努力但是過去這四年我看到這一塊是很空的就是說我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋照顧他們的權益要照顧的更多所以我在等待就是說既然未來非典型的就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多的所以在法規我們的因應方式到底是什麼\n\n15\n00:05:49,143 --> 00:05:53,962\n不管是派遣非典裡面分很多那我們的因應方式是什麼\n\n16\n00:05:54,970 --> 00:06:19,648\n這個我未來齁七幾...欸啊這次你同中也好應該不部長我不用大聲跟你講但你非常清楚這一塊年輕人非常重視這一塊他們也都在等年輕人為什麼這一次那麼多人不支持你們我邊走我邊在路上在敗票都天天看到他們在罵民進黨所以這一塊要做好因為投入這一塊市場很多都是年輕人部長我提醒你快走好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1277\t3178\t在上一次的我們勞動部的工作報告當中我提出來我們失業率整體是降低的我看到你的工作報告內容確實沒有錯但是包括我們15歲到29歲失業率其實在金融海嘯之後我們也創了新低\n26665\t42634\t這些其實都是事實沒有錯但是我覺得勞動部還有一個更關鍵的數據跟報告沒有呈現在上一次的我們勞動部工作報告當中就是我們非典型的就業人口在過去4年來創了新高達到80.6萬人這一塊數據其實佔整體勞動力的比例未來部長你覺得非典型就業人口在未來會增加還是會減少\n54600\t71312\t你預估你感覺到我覺得現在的現在年輕人啊都對工作自由的這個那個選擇會是他的決定工作的之類的很重要的考量的因素啦那所以未來有可能會增加我是覺得對\n72313\t98824\t對你跟我的看法一樣我們看韓國我們看日本非典型的就業人口應該是往上在走的趨勢因為很多年現在就他希望有彈性工時要更靈活這個就是未來當然非典型有不同的不同的就業的模式跟方式但是我相信你也非常清楚知道說在疫後在疫情過後大家遠距的上班方式或電動電船勞動的方式其實都越來越多我們過去傳統的用這種\n102085\t129415\t強重強度堅指揮監督管理強弱方式來決定他到底是雇佣跟承承染其實接下來會受到越來越多的挑戰喔部長你同不同意包括像之前我們常在開會討論包括uber e跟fulpanda他們常常我我我自己在接基層走的時候我常常聽到外送人在跟我講說他們常常被片面的去呃調降外送獎金\n130075\t152016\t突然一個公告就是說這個月要調價或者是增加外送的里程數這個是不是叫做片面的修改這個勞動條件這個算嗎你同意嗎我們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟曾經的建樹多不多這個部分一發現有這個問題馬上就要透過我們一個對話平台\n154699\t176915\t我們這幾年就有建立那個我們的外送業者跟那個這些外送工會的一個對話平台針對相關的爭議包括像說多馬對不對重點是多馬對所以我更認為在非典型的就業的模式上我覺得我們應該要有更多的法規也好來去保障\n178156\t185923\t勞工相關的權益你同嗎所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修那你們的看法到底如何\n187014\t215869\t之前那個因為外送跟派遣這個可能不太一樣派遣的部分我們那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭對假承攬真僱傭就這幾塊其實都是我們現在勞動部接下來面臨很大的挑戰的問題我記得我們剛上任我們一起努力做了一些法規上的調整那但是外送這一塊我是跟委員報告就是說的確這一塊不容易一直有人希望我們立專法的這個呼\n217670\t245769\t所以你到底可以做嗎?你不能做的理由是怎麼樣讓外界知道因為我在記者我都答應說我會幫你們爭取權益我覺得我不能讓你們的權益突然說里程要增加或突然降低那個外送的獎金我覺得這是不合理的我們其實對外送員的部分我們的政策上就是說先從比如說他的安全還有他的這些薪酬的保障還有他的這個保險方面\n246369\t274863\t好,我們去要求外送業者要做一些對他們有利的一些措施啦。部長,我知道,你說了這些都要回去做,但對外送員來說他可能這是他的第二份工作,第三份工作,因為薪資不夠嘛。但是片面的去修正如何在他們這個勞僱的過程當中保障更大的權益,更多的權益,我們因應的方式到底是什麼,我覺得要更具體,否則\n276104\t304627\t我之前那個我之前當立委是4年前那都是我們4年前的修法但這幾年可能投入這些外送員的那個對那是派遣的部分派遣也好外送員也好越來越多所以我覺得我們的法律是要越走越往前去進步去涵蓋照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對我們現在就是先透過對話的機制剛剛我講的那個平台它其實也有發揮它的效果\n304827\t321695\t吼有對平台業者有達成約束的一個效果了吼所以但是呃長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制吼對什麼其實因為這個其實我等很久部長我不是在考你因為現在外送人員越來越多派遣的人越來越多\n322435\t348162\t所以我們不能原地踏步四年前我覺得我們有做一些努力但是過去這四年我看到這一塊是很空的就是說我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋照顧他們的權益要照顧的更多所以我在等待就是說既然未來非典型的就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多的所以在法規我們的因應方式到底是什麼\n349143\t353962\t不管是派遣 非典裡面分很多 那我們的因應方式是什麼\n354970\t379648\t這個我未來齁七幾...欸啊這次你同中也好應該不部長我不用大聲跟你講但你非常清楚這一塊年輕人非常重視這一塊他們也都在等年輕人為什麼這一次那麼多人不支持你們我邊走我邊在路上在敗票都天天看到他們在罵民進黨所以這一塊要做好因為投入這一塊市場很多都是年輕人部長我提醒你快走好不好好謝謝\n384991\t385401\t響鐘!\n","txt":"在上一次的我們勞動部的工作報告當中我提出來我們失業率整體是降低的我看到你的工作報告內容確實沒有錯但是包括我們15歲到29歲失業率其實在金融海嘯之後我們也創了新低\n這些其實都是事實沒有錯但是我覺得勞動部還有一個更關鍵的數據跟報告沒有呈現在上一次的我們勞動部工作報告當中就是我們非典型的就業人口在過去4年來創了新高達到80.6萬人這一塊數據其實佔整體勞動力的比例未來部長你覺得非典型就業人口在未來會增加還是會減少\n你預估你感覺到我覺得現在的現在年輕人啊都對工作自由的這個那個選擇會是他的決定工作的之類的很重要的考量的因素啦那所以未來有可能會增加我是覺得對\n對你跟我的看法一樣我們看韓國我們看日本非典型的就業人口應該是往上在走的趨勢因為很多年現在就他希望有彈性工時要更靈活這個就是未來當然非典型有不同的不同的就業的模式跟方式但是我相信你也非常清楚知道說在疫後在疫情過後大家遠距的上班方式或電動電船勞動的方式其實都越來越多我們過去傳統的用這種\n強重強度堅指揮監督管理強弱方式來決定他到底是雇佣跟承承染其實接下來會受到越來越多的挑戰喔部長你同不同意包括像之前我們常在開會討論包括uber e跟fulpanda他們常常我我我自己在接基層走的時候我常常聽到外送人在跟我講說他們常常被片面的去呃調降外送獎金\n突然一個公告就是說這個月要調價或者是增加外送的里程數這個是不是叫做片面的修改這個勞動條件這個算嗎你同意嗎我們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟曾經的建樹多不多這個部分一發現有這個問題馬上就要透過我們一個對話平台\n我們這幾年就有建立那個我們的外送業者跟那個這些外送工會的一個對話平台針對相關的爭議包括像說多馬對不對重點是多馬對所以我更認為在非典型的就業的模式上我覺得我們應該要有更多的法規也好來去保障\n勞工相關的權益你同嗎所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修那你們的看法到底如何\n之前那個因為外送跟派遣這個可能不太一樣派遣的部分我們那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭對假承攬真僱傭就這幾塊其實都是我們現在勞動部接下來面臨很大的挑戰的問題我記得我們剛上任我們一起努力做了一些法規上的調整那但是外送這一塊我是跟委員報告就是說的確這一塊不容易一直有人希望我們立專法的這個呼\n所以你到底可以做嗎?你不能做的理由是怎麼樣讓外界知道因為我在記者我都答應說我會幫你們爭取權益我覺得我不能讓你們的權益突然說里程要增加或突然降低那個外送的獎金我覺得這是不合理的我們其實對外送員的部分我們的政策上就是說先從比如說他的安全還有他的這些薪酬的保障還有他的這個保險方面\n好,我們去要求外送業者要做一些對他們有利的一些措施啦。部長,我知道,你說了這些都要回去做,但對外送員來說他可能這是他的第二份工作,第三份工作,因為薪資不夠嘛。但是片面的去修正如何在他們這個勞僱的過程當中保障更大的權益,更多的權益,我們因應的方式到底是什麼,我覺得要更具體,否則\n我之前那個我之前當立委是4年前那都是我們4年前的修法但這幾年可能投入這些外送員的那個對那是派遣的部分派遣也好外送員也好越來越多所以我覺得我們的法律是要越走越往前去進步去涵蓋照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對我們現在就是先透過對話的機制剛剛我講的那個平台它其實也有發揮它的效果\n吼有對平台業者有達成約束的一個效果了吼所以但是呃長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制吼對什麼其實因為這個其實我等很久部長我不是在考你因為現在外送人員越來越多派遣的人越來越多\n所以我們不能原地踏步四年前我覺得我們有做一些努力但是過去這四年我看到這一塊是很空的就是說我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋照顧他們的權益要照顧的更多所以我在等待就是說既然未來非典型的就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多的所以在法規我們的因應方式到底是什麼\n不管是派遣 非典裡面分很多 那我們的因應方式是什麼\n這個我未來齁七幾...欸啊這次你同中也好應該不部長我不用大聲跟你講但你非常清楚這一塊年輕人非常重視這一塊他們也都在等年輕人為什麼這一次那麼多人不支持你們我邊走我邊在路上在敗票都天天看到他們在罵民進黨所以這一塊要做好因為投入這一塊市場很多都是年輕人部長我提醒你快走好不好好謝謝\n響鐘!\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.277 --> 00:03.178\n在上一次的我們勞動部的工作報告當中我提出來我們失業率整體是降低的我看到你的工作報告內容確實沒有錯但是包括我們15歲到29歲失業率其實在金融海嘯之後我們也創了新低\n\n00:26.665 --> 00:42.634\n這些其實都是事實沒有錯但是我覺得勞動部還有一個更關鍵的數據跟報告沒有呈現在上一次的我們勞動部工作報告當中就是我們非典型的就業人口在過去4年來創了新高達到80.6萬人這一塊數據其實佔整體勞動力的比例未來部長你覺得非典型就業人口在未來會增加還是會減少\n\n00:54.600 --> 01:11.312\n你預估你感覺到我覺得現在的現在年輕人啊都對工作自由的這個那個選擇會是他的決定工作的之類的很重要的考量的因素啦那所以未來有可能會增加我是覺得對\n\n01:12.313 --> 01:38.824\n對你跟我的看法一樣我們看韓國我們看日本非典型的就業人口應該是往上在走的趨勢因為很多年現在就他希望有彈性工時要更靈活這個就是未來當然非典型有不同的不同的就業的模式跟方式但是我相信你也非常清楚知道說在疫後在疫情過後大家遠距的上班方式或電動電船勞動的方式其實都越來越多我們過去傳統的用這種\n\n01:42.085 --> 02:09.415\n強重強度堅指揮監督管理強弱方式來決定他到底是雇佣跟承承染其實接下來會受到越來越多的挑戰喔部長你同不同意包括像之前我們常在開會討論包括ubere跟fulpanda他們常常我我我自己在接基層走的時候我常常聽到外送人在跟我講說他們常常被片面的去呃調降外送獎金\n\n02:10.075 --> 02:32.016\n突然一個公告就是說這個月要調價或者是增加外送的里程數這個是不是叫做片面的修改這個勞動條件這個算嗎你同意嗎我們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟曾經的建樹多不多這個部分一發現有這個問題馬上就要透過我們一個對話平台\n\n02:34.699 --> 02:56.915\n我們這幾年就有建立那個我們的外送業者跟那個這些外送工會的一個對話平台針對相關的爭議包括像說多馬對不對重點是多馬對所以我更認為在非典型的就業的模式上我覺得我們應該要有更多的法規也好來去保障\n\n02:58.156 --> 03:05.923\n勞工相關的權益你同嗎所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修那你們的看法到底如何\n\n03:07.014 --> 03:35.869\n之前那個因為外送跟派遣這個可能不太一樣派遣的部分我們那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭對假承攬真僱傭就這幾塊其實都是我們現在勞動部接下來面臨很大的挑戰的問題我記得我們剛上任我們一起努力做了一些法規上的調整那但是外送這一塊我是跟委員報告就是說的確這一塊不容易一直有人希望我們立專法的這個呼\n\n03:37.670 --> 04:05.769\n所以你到底可以做嗎?你不能做的理由是怎麼樣讓外界知道因為我在記者我都答應說我會幫你們爭取權益我覺得我不能讓你們的權益突然說里程要增加或突然降低那個外送的獎金我覺得這是不合理的我們其實對外送員的部分我們的政策上就是說先從比如說他的安全還有他的這些薪酬的保障還有他的這個保險方面\n\n04:06.369 --> 04:34.863\n好,我們去要求外送業者要做一些對他們有利的一些措施啦。部長,我知道,你說了這些都要回去做,但對外送員來說他可能這是他的第二份工作,第三份工作,因為薪資不夠嘛。但是片面的去修正如何在他們這個勞僱的過程當中保障更大的權益,更多的權益,我們因應的方式到底是什麼,我覺得要更具體,否則\n\n04:36.104 --> 05:04.627\n我之前那個我之前當立委是4年前那都是我們4年前的修法但這幾年可能投入這些外送員的那個對那是派遣的部分派遣也好外送員也好越來越多所以我覺得我們的法律是要越走越往前去進步去涵蓋照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對我們現在就是先透過對話的機制剛剛我講的那個平台它其實也有發揮它的效果\n\n05:04.827 --> 05:21.695\n吼有對平台業者有達成約束的一個效果了吼所以但是呃長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制吼對什麼其實因為這個其實我等很久部長我不是在考你因為現在外送人員越來越多派遣的人越來越多\n\n05:22.435 --> 05:48.162\n所以我們不能原地踏步四年前我覺得我們有做一些努力但是過去這四年我看到這一塊是很空的就是說我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋照顧他們的權益要照顧的更多所以我在等待就是說既然未來非典型的就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多的所以在法規我們的因應方式到底是什麼\n\n05:49.143 --> 05:53.962\n不管是派遣非典裡面分很多那我們的因應方式是什麼\n\n05:54.970 --> 06:19.648\n這個我未來齁七幾...欸啊這次你同中也好應該不部長我不用大聲跟你講但你非常清楚這一塊年輕人非常重視這一塊他們也都在等年輕人為什麼這一次那麼多人不支持你們我邊走我邊在路上在敗票都天天看到他們在罵民進黨所以這一塊要做好因為投入這一塊市場很多都是年輕人部長我提醒你快走好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.277,"end":3.178,"text":"在上一次的我們勞動部的工作報告當中我提出來我們失業率整體是降低的我看到你的工作報告內容確實沒有錯但是包括我們15歲到29歲失業率其實在金融海嘯之後我們也創了新低"},{"start":26.665,"end":42.634,"text":"這些其實都是事實沒有錯但是我覺得勞動部還有一個更關鍵的數據跟報告沒有呈現在上一次的我們勞動部工作報告當中就是我們非典型的就業人口在過去4年來創了新高達到80.6萬人這一塊數據其實佔整體勞動力的比例未來部長你覺得非典型就業人口在未來會增加還是會減少"},{"start":54.6,"end":71.312,"text":"你預估你感覺到我覺得現在的現在年輕人啊都對工作自由的這個那個選擇會是他的決定工作的之類的很重要的考量的因素啦那所以未來有可能會增加我是覺得對"},{"start":72.313,"end":98.824,"text":"對你跟我的看法一樣我們看韓國我們看日本非典型的就業人口應該是往上在走的趨勢因為很多年現在就他希望有彈性工時要更靈活這個就是未來當然非典型有不同的不同的就業的模式跟方式但是我相信你也非常清楚知道說在疫後在疫情過後大家遠距的上班方式或電動電船勞動的方式其實都越來越多我們過去傳統的用這種"},{"start":102.085,"end":129.415,"text":"強重強度堅指揮監督管理強弱方式來決定他到底是雇佣跟承承染其實接下來會受到越來越多的挑戰喔部長你同不同意包括像之前我們常在開會討論包括uber e跟fulpanda他們常常我我我自己在接基層走的時候我常常聽到外送人在跟我講說他們常常被片面的去呃調降外送獎金"},{"start":130.075,"end":152.016,"text":"突然一個公告就是說這個月要調價或者是增加外送的里程數這個是不是叫做片面的修改這個勞動條件這個算嗎你同意嗎我們這邊勞資糾紛接受到這樣的資訊跟曾經的建樹多不多這個部分一發現有這個問題馬上就要透過我們一個對話平台"},{"start":154.699,"end":176.915,"text":"我們這幾年就有建立那個我們的外送業者跟那個這些外送工會的一個對話平台針對相關的爭議包括像說多馬對不對重點是多馬對所以我更認為在非典型的就業的模式上我覺得我們應該要有更多的法規也好來去保障"},{"start":178.156,"end":185.923,"text":"勞工相關的權益你同嗎所以我們以前一直在說派遣法要怎麼修那你們的看法到底如何"},{"start":187.014,"end":215.869,"text":"之前那個因為外送跟派遣這個可能不太一樣派遣的部分我們那時候因為常常都是假承攬真僱傭對假承攬真僱傭就這幾塊其實都是我們現在勞動部接下來面臨很大的挑戰的問題我記得我們剛上任我們一起努力做了一些法規上的調整那但是外送這一塊我是跟委員報告就是說的確這一塊不容易一直有人希望我們立專法的這個呼"},{"start":217.67,"end":245.769,"text":"所以你到底可以做嗎?你不能做的理由是怎麼樣讓外界知道因為我在記者我都答應說我會幫你們爭取權益我覺得我不能讓你們的權益突然說里程要增加或突然降低那個外送的獎金我覺得這是不合理的我們其實對外送員的部分我們的政策上就是說先從比如說他的安全還有他的這些薪酬的保障還有他的這個保險方面"},{"start":246.369,"end":274.863,"text":"好,我們去要求外送業者要做一些對他們有利的一些措施啦。部長,我知道,你說了這些都要回去做,但對外送員來說他可能這是他的第二份工作,第三份工作,因為薪資不夠嘛。但是片面的去修正如何在他們這個勞僱的過程當中保障更大的權益,更多的權益,我們因應的方式到底是什麼,我覺得要更具體,否則"},{"start":276.104,"end":304.627,"text":"我之前那個我之前當立委是4年前那都是我們4年前的修法但這幾年可能投入這些外送員的那個對那是派遣的部分派遣也好外送員也好越來越多所以我覺得我們的法律是要越走越往前去進步去涵蓋照顧這些勞工的範圍要更多才對我們現在就是先透過對話的機制剛剛我講的那個平台它其實也有發揮它的效果"},{"start":304.827,"end":321.695,"text":"吼有對平台業者有達成約束的一個效果了吼所以但是呃長期我們會去考量用怎麼樣的機制吼對什麼其實因為這個其實我等很久部長我不是在考你因為現在外送人員越來越多派遣的人越來越多"},{"start":322.435,"end":348.162,"text":"所以我們不能原地踏步四年前我覺得我們有做一些努力但是過去這四年我看到這一塊是很空的就是說我們沒有在法規裡面涵蓋照顧他們的權益要照顧的更多所以我在等待就是說既然未來非典型的就業人口我們也預估它是會越來越多的所以在法規我們的因應方式到底是什麼"},{"start":349.143,"end":353.962,"text":"不管是派遣 非典裡面分很多 那我們的因應方式是什麼"},{"start":354.97,"end":379.648,"text":"這個我未來齁七幾...欸啊這次你同中也好應該不部長我不用大聲跟你講但你非常清楚這一塊年輕人非常重視這一塊他們也都在等年輕人為什麼這一次那麼多人不支持你們我邊走我邊在路上在敗票都天天看到他們在罵民進黨所以這一塊要做好因為投入這一塊市場很多都是年輕人部長我提醒你快走好不好好謝謝"},{"start":384.991,"end":385.401,"text":"響鐘!"}]}}}}