{"id":149827,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b69031c115b843932001414b75c67118f492bf8ba9b0039caa7a66c7b4370730bc6965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:06:32 - 13:21:22","影片長度":"00:14:50","會議時間":"2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-13","duration":890,"end_time":"2024-03-13T13:21:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-13T13:06:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1250,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時6分）謝謝主席，請鄒署長。"],["主席：請鄒署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。根據本席的調查，你是職安署歷任以來最長壽的署長，想必在這麼多來年，在你任內的7年當中有不少的豐功偉業，我想這些功績都可以反映在數字上，因為數字會說話，所以現在就讓我們繼續看下去。首先是檢查人力短缺的問題，請問中央及地方現在沒有填補的正職檢查員還有多少職缺？其中職業安全衛生的缺是多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，缺是一直在浮動，不過我們正式編制檢查員在職率大概是8成5到9成上下浮動，職缺大概1成左右。"],["陳委員瑩：你就講成數，沒有具體的統計數字？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，因為這是浮動的。"],["陳委員瑩：你今天下班前，把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室，好不好？"],["鄒署長子廉：我手邊的資料到2月底的缺額是86人。"],["陳委員瑩：只有86人？"],["鄒署長子廉：是，正式的缺有86人。"],["陳委員瑩：這些缺額是中央的比較多？還是地方政府的缺額比較多？"],["鄒署長子廉：都有，以我們目前手邊的資料，臺北市缺額9個，新北市23個……"],["陳委員瑩：哪裡多？"],["鄒署長子廉：新北市23個、桃園12個、臺中16個，我們北區也缺8個。"],["陳委員瑩：我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺比較多？"],["鄒署長子廉：地方比較多。"],["陳委員瑩：據我所知，這些缺額沒有補齊的時間其實已經過了很久，跟去年的今天比較，檢查員的人數是增加還是減少？"],["鄒署長子廉：員額沒有變，人數減少。"],["陳委員瑩：其實我聽到的聲音就是新進的檢查員是不來報到的，或者他實習完就離職轉調，這其實是令人非常擔心的問題，因為衍生了我接下來要提問的問題。我們看一下檢查次量合理分配的問題，有些地方政府檢查單位反映，職安署只會分配讓它們難以負荷的檢查次量，並沒有考慮到它們所承擔的工作壓力，這個問題其實呈現到底合理的檢查次數是多少的問題。署長，以你的經驗，一位檢查員每天合理的檢查廠次是多少？我說的廠次是工廠的廠，合理的廠次是多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：應該是2廠次，早上1廠、下午1廠。"],["陳委員瑩：但是廠也有分大小，如果大到像台塑，你叫他一天檢查2個台塑這麼大的廠也是檢查不完的。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["陳委員瑩：因為廠次有分大小，我其實也有參考你們的年報，111年對事業單位實施職安衛檢查有17萬1,177場次，看起來量還滿多的，有十七萬多，但是17萬的場次，我剛剛問的是工廠的廠，但是17萬的這個場是一場、兩場的場，你們所謂的場次，其中還包含了起重機、升降機具的座次，三萬三千多的座次，還有鍋爐的6,000座次、壓力容器檢查2萬9,000座次、其他高壓氣體設備座次也是三萬多，這些都是座次，我剛剛把你們年報的統計一下，座次的部分總共有10萬7,189件，減完之後，大概還有7萬的場次，你知道我在講什麼啦！我剛剛把這些換算出來是為了要告訴你們，我先請教你，今年訂定的全年目標是多少廠次？工廠的廠。按照你們的算法還有場次的場，你覺得多少廠次跟多少場次是合理的？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提問，剛剛委員提醒的機械設備、鍋爐、壓力容器是我們代行檢查的量。"],["陳委員瑩：今年設定的全年目標是？"],["鄒署長子廉：我認為我們同仁負荷已經非常重，我們會維持去年的水平，以不要減少為原則。"],["陳委員瑩：但是你人數減少了。"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，因為行政院和部長的支持，我們現在讓同仁有風險工作費的支持，希望同仁能夠留任或留才。"],["陳委員瑩：給錢就了事了嗎？加個3,000元、5,000元就好了嗎？因為以現有的檢查員努力工作，你換算下來他可以合理完成職安署所設定的年度目標嗎？可不可以？你說加了那個錢就可以完成這個嗎？我說的是合理的目標，包含有效、有品質的檢查。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提醒，有關合理的工作量，我們再跟各檢查機構做進一步的協商。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你現在不知道嘛！如果照你這樣的回答。"],["鄒署長子廉：各檢查機構每年報勞檢計畫，我們是有計畫量能的。"],["陳委員瑩：我這樣說好了，我們從檢查年報來看，檢查次量逐年增加，重大職災傷亡人數並沒有跟著減少啊！而且今年看起來創新高，會不會是你們分配給縣市政府的負荷量太高了？我的質疑是你把KPI訂這麼高有用嗎？你訂得太高，所有的勞檢員會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎？因為大家為了衝量、衝那個數字，就會變成為鄒署長所訂目標創造一個美麗的數字，在重大職災發生的時候，讓鄒署長可以跟立委報告、跟全國民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少了場次，是你訂的那個場，包含座次，一個量衝很高的場次數據。所以明年檢查的次量是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的人數來做合理的分配？而不是你鄒子廉坐在辦公室裡訂一個盲目的數據，讓大家無止境的一直追求、一直增加，達到你訂的KPI，因為你訂的KPI就有問題嘛！署長怎麼看？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提醒，質量並重是我們的期待，各檢查機構人力確實現在人員流動也是很大的困難，所以委員的提醒和建議，我們會好好來檢討，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我對你們的統計是有很大的質疑，剛剛講工廠有分大小，而且按照剛剛署長的回應，你們現在已經不用早期工廠的廠次來計算，現在比較誇張的是你們用項次，檢核表打一個勾就算一場，我看你們自己統計也是這樣一座就一場啊！你們是這樣統計的！你不知道有這個狀況嗎？你不知道檢核表打個勾就算一場嗎？你知道有這個狀況嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們叫作交叉檢查，檢查員到工地或工廠做一般檢查，如果發現特別危險的東西，我們鼓勵他要做特別危險項目檢查，所以我們有這樣的要求，不要……"],["陳委員瑩：你們有這樣的要求，計算上就要給它算一個廠次……"],["鄒署長子廉：我們會寫清楚。"],["陳委員瑩：大家聽到了，原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來！那我知道了，你們就是堅持要這樣算，那沒關係，你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI，可以啊！因為你一個項目就打個勾。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，不是一個項目，我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際、深入的檢查。"],["陳委員瑩：你鼓勵的結果是怎樣？你這些鼓勵的方式產生的結果是什麼？重大職安死亡人數飆新高啊！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們去年比前年略減一點，當然我們真的不滿意，我們還會再檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：最好是好好檢討，我要請教檢查品質的問題，因為這個很重要，我會加速。署長，新進檢查員還沒有完成1個月學科訓練和60次術科實習，他所做的檢查具有法律效力嗎？你先回答我有沒有。他如果沒有完成，就像一個醫生沒有完成實習，他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提醒，我們勞檢有包括監督、檢查、輔導和宣導……"],["陳委員瑩：你現在先回答我有沒有法律的效力。"],["鄒署長子廉：實際檢查當然要訓練合格才可以。"],["陳委員瑩：所以沒有嘛！如果這個不合格的檢查員造成人民權益損失，有沒有國家賠償的問題？"],["鄒署長子廉：我想要個案來討論。"],["陳委員瑩：所以討論完可能沒有，也可能有，是這樣嗎？因為他已經不合格了，他還可以到這階段？一個不合格的檢查員對廠家作出決定、作出處分，這個有效力嗎？他自己就不合格了，這後續還有什麼討論的問題？你的邏輯也是很奇怪！所以國家賠償，那是你們造成的損失啊！如果在這個高度檢查量要求之下，現在有多少檢查員還沒有完成受訓就去檢查了，你有沒有掌握？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們都會要求檢查機構首長和組長要確定他有合格。"],["陳委員瑩：你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格就去檢查？"],["鄒署長子廉：目前沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：我在這裡呼籲，所有的廠家如果有遇到不合格的勞檢員去檢查的時候，或者造成你們的損失，麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡，來跟我檢舉，好不好？我想事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災，檢查員到底有沒有責任？是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了？這些勞動檢查跟預防職災之間的關聯性到底是什麼？如果它們不是絕對正向的關係，你們每年增加勞檢次量的意義在哪裡？我是丟出這些問題給你啦！針對勞檢的現況、角色跟防災的功能，我希望職安署能夠解決檢查員缺額日益嚴重的問題，因為這個問題已經不是一天兩天了，也不能歸咎於有沒有危險加給，然後就甩鍋給部長去解決，因為缺額衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題，它結果是一個惡性循環，關鍵可能在於職安署長期迷戀於檢查次量認為越多越好，但如果沒有好的品質，事實證明對於職災預防根本就是沒有效的，所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題，讓署長回去好好檢討，要有好的質量，減少職災的發生及減少職災死亡的人數，才是我們真正關心的事情，而不是你去檢查了多少場次，然後還要加權計算。以上，謝謝。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","本日會議詢答全部結束。","委員廖偉翔、林德福、葉元之所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","案由：本院廖委員偉翔，藉本院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議向勞動部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、請勞動部檢討，對當前勞動部促進身心障礙者訓練與就業推動小組按設置要點之規範，除應定期舉辦會議運作外，也應妥適辦理小組業務含會議記錄等事項之揭露，爰請限期於一個月內改善。","二、另有關勞動部職業安全衛生諮詢會之設置，查目前辦理會議運作情形公開之業務亦仍不足，是以請勞動部一併檢討並改善，落實資訊公開，並受外界妥適監督。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","問題一","年金改革，蔡英文總統曾說「現在不做，馬上就會後悔」，勞保年改一拖就要8年，媒體報導2028年「勞保」有破產風險，請問勞動部，在520前會提出行政院版勞保年金改革方案嗎？","2023年超徵稅收3,617億，勞動部會爭取多少預算挹注勞保？","問題二","立法院去年12月通過「最低工資法」，因此，2024年是「基本工資」27,470元的最後一年，2025年1月1日將改用「最低工資」，請問勞動部長，最低工資「研究小組」與「最低工資審議會委員」名單何時會確定對外公布？","問題三","外界盛傳四月「電價審議委員會」將宣布「電價調漲」，眾所周知，電價與物價都有高度相關。","「最低工資法」條文明定，「研究小組」應於「每年四月」向「審議會」提出「最低工資」實施對「經濟及就業狀況」之影響報告。請問勞動部長，「最低工資影響報告」會在電價調漲「前」還是電價調漲「後」提出？","問題四","勞工抱怨薪資漲幅跟不上物價上漲！，主計總處公布2月，17項重要民生物資（米、豬肉、雞肉、糖等）平均漲幅3.2%。","如果今年工資一樣維持4%漲幅，本席大膽預測，「最低工資審議委員會」，要到2026第三季才會宣布「最低工資超過3萬元」，2027年1月實施，藉此拉抬民進黨「2026地方選舉」氣勢。","請問勞動部長，您認為何時「最低工資」有機會超過3萬元？"],["委員葉元之書面質詢：","有鑑於我國失聯移工頻傳，特此提出質詢。","一、以2022年數據為例，台灣共有72萬8,081位移工，其中計算到2022年2月底共有8萬2,897人失聯，截至2023年年底失聯移工人數累計已達8萬6,523人，一年增加3,626位失聯移工，影響我國就業與安全甚鉅。","二、以鄰國日本為例，產經新聞報導，相同為勞力較為密集之「技能研修」、「特定技能一號」簽證失聯移工人數計算，2021年日本共有172萬人，但失聯人數僅為5,000人，顯見台灣移工失聯數過高。","爰要求勞動部與移民署儘速合作查處及加速遣返流程，避免成為治安與國安缺口。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，星期四上午9點繼續開會。","休息（13時21分）","� 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885.762, \"end\": 886.002, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 886.002, \"end\": 886.162, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 886.162, \"end\": 886.182, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:33,961\n謝謝主席我們今天請周署長請周署長署長好根據本席的調查您是這個治安署歷年來歷任以來最長壽的署長想必在這麼多年的你任內的這個7年當中呢有不少的豐功偉業那我想說這個這些攻擊呢\n\n2\n00:00:34,641 --> 00:00:59,702\n都可以反映在數字上那因為數字會說話所以呢現在就讓我們繼續看下去好來那個首先呢是這個檢查人力短缺的問題我要請教中央級地方現在有就是現在沒有填補的正職檢察員還有多少職缺那其中這個職業安全衛生的這個缺是多少\n\n3\n00:01:00,755 --> 00:01:28,195\n報告委員那個缺是一直在浮動不過我們的正式的編制檢察院大概那個債值率大概是八成五到九成上下在浮動八成五到九成只缺這一成左右好所以你就講陳述那你沒有具體的這個統計數字對報告委員是浮動的那你今天下班前你把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室好不好\n\n4\n00:01:29,141 --> 00:01:54,276\n我手邊的資料是在2月底是我們現在缺額是86人只有86人只有缺86人對是好那這些這些缺額是中央的比較多還是地方政府的這個缺額比較多各位報告委員都有像台北市我目前手邊資料是缺額9個新北市缺更多23個哪裡多啊新北市23桃園12台中16\n\n5\n00:01:58,069 --> 00:02:22,561\n那我們的北區也缺8我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺額比較多好那據我所知這些缺額已經就是沒有補齊的這個時間其實已經過了很久了那跟這個去年的這個跟去年的今天比較那我們檢察員的這個人數是增加還是減少緣和沒有變人數減少\n\n6\n00:02:24,859 --> 00:02:53,229\n原額沒變人數減少好那其實呢我聽到的聲音就是說新進的這個檢察員然後很多他就是受訓他是他是不來報到的或者是說他實習完的時候呢他就離職就轉掉了那這個是其實是令人非常擔心的問題因為衍生的這個接下來就是說我們衍生了這個我接下來要提問的這些問題\n\n7\n00:02:54,289 --> 00:03:20,122\n我們看一下這個檢查檢查次量合理分配的問題有些地方政府呢的這個檢查單位反映只會分配讓他們難以負荷的這個檢查次量並沒有考慮到他們所承擔的這些工作壓力那這個問題其實是呈現到底合理的檢查次數的是多少的問題那署長\n\n8\n00:03:22,603 --> 00:03:37,208\n以你的經驗一位檢察員每天合理的檢查場次是多少?我說的場次是工廠的場合理的場次是多少?那是兩場次早上一場下午一場\n\n9\n00:03:38,226 --> 00:04:05,766\n一天場次但是這個場其實其實也有分大小嗎如果大到像那個台塑我想他一天你要叫他兩個台塑這麼大的場也是檢查不完的所以因為場次有分大小嗎那當然就是說按照我其實也有參考了這個年報你們這個年報的部分等一下在那邊\n\n10\n00:04:11,172 --> 00:04:24,604\n好我我有看了等一下那個因為在桌上吼我有看了你們這個年報吼你們大概就是年報大概一年一百一十一年吧統計的這個數量大概有這個總共\n\n11\n00:04:26,826 --> 00:04:35,217\n嗯一百一十一年的檢查機構的這個對事業單位實施這個你們的這個指案會的檢查有171177個場次看起來量還蠻多的17萬多\n\n12\n00:04:41,886 --> 00:04:47,270\n好那但是17萬的這個場次我剛剛問的是工廠的場但是17萬這個場是一場兩場的場但是這一場這個場次你們所謂的場次呢其中還包含了這個起重機升降狙擊的座次33000多的座次還有這個鍋爐的6000大概鍋爐的6000座次\n\n13\n00:05:11,165 --> 00:05:40,208\n還有這個壓力鍋壓力容器檢查兩萬九千座次還有其他高壓氣體設備的座次也是三萬多這些都是座次那我剛剛把你們這個年報的統計一下這個座次的部分總共有十萬七千一百八十九件所以檢完之後呢\n\n14\n00:05:42,110 --> 00:06:06,560\n大概還有7萬7萬的場次你知道我在講什麼然後所以我剛剛把這些換算換算出來我是要我是要告訴你們就是說在你你這個因為我不曉得你今年按照你這樣子換算那我先請教你今年訂定的這個全年的目標是多少場次工廠的場\n\n15\n00:06:07,981 --> 00:06:20,859\n那按照你現在就是說你們按照你們這樣算是那個還有場次的場那你覺得多少場工廠的場次跟多少你們算算的場次是是合理的\n\n16\n00:06:22,652 --> 00:06:40,864\n謝謝委員提問,剛剛委員提醒那個委員會設備是我們待遇檢查的量你們今年設定的這個全年的目標是要怎麼算我們認為我們同樣已經負荷非常重,我們會以去年維持去年的水平不要減少為原則\n\n17\n00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:56,878\n但是你人數減少了所以我們今天就是跟委員報告我們因為我們那個行政院高雄部長支持我們現在有讓同仁有那個風險工作費的一些支持希望同仁能夠留任或留才因為給錢就了事了嗎加個3000塊5000塊就好了嗎\n\n18\n00:06:59,642 --> 00:07:28,417\n因為以現有的這個檢察員努力的工作那換算你要算下來他可以合理完成的這個職安署所設定的年度目標嗎可不可以你說加了那個錢也是就加了錢就可以完成這個我講的是合理的目標合理的目標包含有效有品質的檢查所以委員提醒有關合理的工作量我們會再跟各檢察機構做進步的對所以你現在是不知道嗎如果按照你這樣的回答\n\n19\n00:07:35,422 --> 00:07:46,037\n我這樣說好了啦我們從檢查年報來看齁我們檢查次量逐年增加嘛那重大值在傷亡的人數並沒有跟著減少啊\n\n20\n00:07:46,758 --> 00:08:04,727\n而且他今年看起來是創新高會不會是你們分配給這個縣市政府的負荷量太高了因為我的質疑是說你把kpi定這麼高有用嗎那你定了太高那這個全體這個我們所有的這個勞檢員\n\n21\n00:08:06,895 --> 00:08:23,730\n會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎因為大家為了要衝那個量去衝那個數字就是會變成為周署長去創造這個你為你所定的這個目標去創造一個美麗的數字然後會讓周署長\n\n22\n00:08:24,411 --> 00:08:39,227\n可以如果在重災重大值在發生的時候那你可以跟立委報告跟全國的民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少的場次是擬定了那個場包含作次的一個量衝很高的一個場次的數據所以\n\n23\n00:08:42,799 --> 00:09:09,914\n從這個檢查就是說明年的這個檢查的這個次量我們是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的這個人數來做一個合理的分配而不是你周子蓮坐在辦公室裡定一個盲目的這個數據讓大家無止境的在這邊追求這一直在追求一直在增加去達到你定的KPI嗎因為你定了KPI就有問題嘛\n\n24\n00:09:11,594 --> 00:09:37,970\n蘇長怎麼看?謝謝委員提醒我們講質量並重是我們的期待齁那各家機構人力因為就是現在的原流動也是一個很大的困難所以我也提醒跟建議我們會好好來檢討因為我對於你們的統計我是有很大的質疑啦因為呢剛剛講嘛工廠有分大小而且按照蘇長剛剛的回應你們現在已經不用那個早期的工廠的廠次廠次來做計算了那\n\n25\n00:09:39,071 --> 00:09:55,309\n現在呢比較誇張的是你們用相次打一打一個勾好這個檢核表裡面打一個勾就算就算一場哎我看你們自己統計也是這樣子一座一個座就就一座就是一場啊你們是這樣子統計的呢\n\n26\n00:09:57,813 --> 00:10:18,561\n你你不知道有這個狀況嗎我就說你不知道說打打那個檢核表打個勾就算一場你知道有這個狀況嗎我們這叫做交叉檢查現在交叉檢查檢查到工地或到社道看做一般檢查如果發現特別危險的東西我們鼓勵大家做那個特別危險的項目做檢查所以我們有這樣子的要求\n\n27\n00:10:19,441 --> 00:10:37,220\n對阿所以你們有這樣的要求那計算上就要就是給他算一個場次好大家聽到了原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來好這樣我知道了你們就是也是堅持就是要這樣子算那沒關係那你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI\n\n28\n00:10:41,305 --> 00:11:04,122\n可以啊因為因為你一個一個項目你就打個勾嘛包委不是一個項目我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際的深入的檢查那在你鼓勵的結果結果是怎麼樣在你的這些鼓勵的方式我們產生的結果是什麼重大職案死亡人數標新高啊包委我們去年比前年略減一點當然我們真的是不滿意我們要再檢討\n\n29\n00:11:05,183 --> 00:11:27,057\n最好是要好好檢討因為我們最後就是我現在看一下就是說請教那個檢查品質的問題啦好因為這個很重要我要提完我會加速來那個署長新進檢查員還沒有完成一個月學科訓練跟60次數科的實習他所做的檢查具有法律效益嗎\n\n30\n00:11:28,564 --> 00:11:34,814\n有嗎有沒有你先回答我有沒有他如果沒有完成就像一個醫生他沒有完成實習\n\n31\n00:11:37,025 --> 00:11:59,908\n然後他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎?謝謝委員提醒那我們的勞檢有包括監督檢查輔導跟懸導不是你先回答我有沒有法律的效力阿如果實際檢查到訓練合格才可以對所以是沒有的嘛那如果這個不合格的檢察員如果造成人民的權益損失有沒有國家賠償的問題有沒有我想要個案來做討論\n\n32\n00:12:02,496 --> 00:12:22,914\n所以討論完可能沒有也可能有是這樣嗎因為他已經不合格了然後他還可以到下個階段一個不合格的檢察員然後去做出了對這個廠家做出了決定做出了處分那這個是有效率的嗎他自己已經是不合格了這還有什麼後續討論的問題\n\n33\n00:12:24,980 --> 00:12:49,895\n你的邏輯也是很奇怪捏那所以國家賠償那是人家你們造成的損失啊那如果在這個高度檢查量的要求之下現在有多少檢察員還沒有完成授訊就在檢查了你有沒有掌握報告員我們都會要求檢察機構的首長跟組長要確定他是有對啦你有要求但你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格然後就去檢查你有沒有掌握目前沒有好\n\n34\n00:12:52,509 --> 00:13:17,214\n那我在這裡呼籲所有的廠家如果你們有遇到不合格的檢察員勞檢員去檢查的時候或者造成你們的損失麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡來跟我檢舉好不好那我想這個事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災那檢察員到底有沒有責任那是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了\n\n35\n00:13:23,424 --> 00:13:35,376\n好這些勞動檢查跟預防職貸之間關聯性到底是什麼如果他們不是一個這個正向就是說不是一個絕對正向的關係齁那你們每年增加這個勞檢的次量的意義在哪裡\n\n36\n00:13:36,857 --> 00:14:03,209\n我丟出這些問題給你啦好那所以我覺得這個就是說我們勞檢的現況角色跟防災的功能我是希望說指安署你們能夠檢查這個解決這個檢查員缺耳日夜這種問題那因為這個已經不是一天兩天了也不能說歸咎於說有沒有這個危險佳績好然後甩鍋給部長去解決\n\n37\n00:14:04,309 --> 00:14:23,921\n那因為缺額那衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題他結果是一個惡性的循環那關鍵可能在說職安署長期迷戀於這個檢查的次量認為越多越好所以如果沒有好的品質事實證明根本就是你對職災預防是沒有效的\n\n38\n00:14:24,281 --> 00:14:46,182\n所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題讓署長你們回去好好的檢討好好的質量減少職災的發生減少職災死亡的這個人數才是我們真正關心的事情而不是你去檢查了多少場次然後還要加權計算以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳瑩委員本日會議詢答全部\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7560\t33961\t謝謝主席我們今天請周署長請周署長署長好根據本席的調查您是這個治安署歷年來歷任以來最長壽的署長想必在這麼多年的你任內的這個7年當中呢有不少的豐功偉業那我想說這個這些攻擊呢\n34641\t59702\t都可以反映在數字上那因為數字會說話所以呢現在就讓我們繼續看下去好來那個首先呢是這個檢查人力短缺的問題我要請教中央級地方現在有就是現在沒有填補的正職檢察員還有多少職缺那其中這個職業安全衛生的這個缺是多少\n60755\t88195\t報告委員那個缺是一直在浮動 不過我們的正式的編制檢察院大概那個債值率大概是八成五到九成上下在浮動 八成五到九成只缺這一成左右好所以你就講陳述那你沒有具體的這個統計數字對報告委員是浮動的那你今天下班前你把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室好不好\n89141\t114276\t我手邊的資料是在2月底是我們現在缺額是86人只有86人只有缺86人對是好那這些這些缺額是中央的比較多還是地方政府的這個缺額比較多各位報告委員都有像台北市我目前手邊資料是缺額9個新北市缺更多23個哪裡多啊新北市23桃園12台中16\n118069\t142561\t那我們的北區也缺8我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺額比較多好那據我所知這些缺額已經就是沒有補齊的這個時間其實已經過了很久了那跟這個去年的這個跟去年的今天比較那我們檢察員的這個人數是增加還是減少緣和沒有變人數減少\n144859\t173229\t原額沒變人數減少好那其實呢我聽到的聲音就是說新進的這個檢察員然後很多他就是受訓他是他是不來報到的或者是說他實習完的時候呢他就離職就轉掉了那這個是其實是令人非常擔心的問題因為衍生的這個接下來就是說我們衍生了這個我接下來要提問的這些問題\n174289\t200122\t我們看一下這個檢查檢查次量合理分配的問題有些地方政府呢的這個檢查單位反映只會分配讓他們難以負荷的這個檢查次量並沒有考慮到他們所承擔的這些工作壓力那這個問題其實是呈現到底合理的檢查次數的是多少的問題那署長\n202603\t217208\t以你的經驗一位檢察員每天合理的檢查場次是多少?我說的場次是工廠的場合理的場次是多少?那是兩場次早上一場下午一場\n218226\t245766\t一天場次但是這個場其實其實也有分大小嗎如果大到像那個台塑我想他一天你要叫他兩個台塑這麼大的場也是檢查不完的所以因為場次有分大小嗎那當然就是說按照我其實也有參考了這個年報你們這個年報的部分等一下在那邊\n251172\t264604\t好我我有看了等一下那個因為在桌上吼我有看了你們這個年報吼你們大概就是年報大概一年一百一十一年吧統計的這個數量大概有這個總共\n266826\t275217\t嗯一百一十一年的檢查機構的這個對事業單位實施這個你們的這個指案會的檢查有171177個場次看起來量還蠻多的17萬多\n281886\t287270\t好那但是17萬的這個場次我剛剛問的是工廠的場但是17萬這個場是一場兩場的場但是這一場這個場次你們所謂的場次呢其中還包含了這個起重機升降狙擊的座次33000多的座次還有這個鍋爐的6000大概鍋爐的6000座次\n311165\t340208\t還有這個壓力鍋壓力容器檢查兩萬九千座次還有其他高壓氣體設備的座次也是三萬多這些都是座次那我剛剛把你們這個年報的統計一下這個座次的部分總共有十萬七千一百八十九件所以檢完之後呢\n342110\t366560\t大概還有7萬7萬的場次你知道我在講什麼然後所以我剛剛把這些換算換算出來我是要我是要告訴你們就是說在你你這個因為我不曉得你今年按照你這樣子換算那我先請教你今年訂定的這個全年的目標是多少場次工廠的場\n367981\t380859\t那按照你現在就是說你們按照你們這樣算是那個還有場次的場那你覺得多少場工廠的場次跟多少你們算算的場次是是合理的\n382652\t400864\t謝謝委員提問,剛剛委員提醒那個委員會設備是我們待遇檢查的量你們今年設定的這個全年的目標是要怎麼算我們認為我們同樣已經負荷非常重,我們會以去年維持去年的水平不要減少為原則\n403100\t416878\t但是你人數減少了所以我們今天就是跟委員報告我們因為我們那個行政院高雄部長支持我們現在有讓同仁有那個風險工作費的一些支持希望同仁能夠留任或留才因為給錢就了事了嗎加個3000塊5000塊就好了嗎\n419642\t448417\t因為以現有的這個檢察員努力的工作那換算你要算下來他可以合理完成的這個職安署所設定的年度目標嗎可不可以你說加了那個錢也是就加了錢就可以完成這個我講的是合理的目標合理的目標包含有效有品質的檢查所以委員提醒有關合理的工作量我們會再跟各檢察機構做進步的對所以你現在是不知道嗎如果按照你這樣的回答\n455422\t466037\t我這樣說好了啦我們從檢查年報來看齁我們檢查次量逐年增加嘛那重大值在傷亡的人數並沒有跟著減少啊\n466758\t484727\t而且他今年看起來是創新高會不會是你們分配給這個縣市政府的負荷量太高了因為我的質疑是說你把kpi定這麼高有用嗎那你定了太高那這個全體這個我們所有的這個勞檢員\n486895\t503730\t會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎因為大家為了要衝那個量去衝那個數字就是會變成為周署長去創造這個你為你所定的這個目標去創造一個美麗的數字然後會讓周署長\n504411\t519227\t可以如果在重災重大值在發生的時候那你可以跟立委報告跟全國的民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少的場次是擬定了那個場包含作次的一個量衝很高的一個場次的數據所以\n522799\t549914\t從這個檢查就是說明年的這個檢查的這個次量我們是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的這個人數來做一個合理的分配而不是你周子蓮坐在辦公室裡定一個盲目的這個數據讓大家無止境的在這邊追求這一直在追求一直在增加去達到你定的KPI嗎因為你定了KPI就有問題嘛\n551594\t577970\t蘇長怎麼看?謝謝委員提醒我們講質量並重是我們的期待齁那各家機構人力因為就是現在的原流動也是一個很大的困難所以我也提醒跟建議我們會好好來檢討因為我對於你們的統計我是有很大的質疑啦因為呢剛剛講嘛工廠有分大小而且按照蘇長剛剛的回應你們現在已經不用那個早期的工廠的廠次廠次來做計算了那\n579071\t595309\t現在呢比較誇張的是你們用相次打一打一個勾好這個檢核表裡面打一個勾就算就算一場哎我看你們自己統計也是這樣子一座一個座就就一座就是一場啊你們是這樣子統計的呢\n597813\t618561\t你你不知道有這個狀況嗎我就說你不知道說打打那個檢核表打個勾就算一場你知道有這個狀況嗎我們這叫做交叉檢查現在交叉檢查檢查到工地或到社道看做一般檢查如果發現特別危險的東西我們鼓勵大家做那個特別危險的項目做檢查所以我們有這樣子的要求\n619441\t637220\t對阿所以你們有這樣的要求那計算上就要就是給他算一個場次好大家聽到了原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來好這樣我知道了你們就是也是堅持就是要這樣子算那沒關係那你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI\n641305\t664122\t可以啊因為因為你一個一個項目你就打個勾嘛包委不是一個項目我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際的深入的檢查那在你鼓勵的結果結果是怎麼樣在你的這些鼓勵的方式我們產生的結果是什麼重大職案死亡人數標新高啊包委我們去年比前年略減一點當然我們真的是不滿意我們要再檢討\n665183\t687057\t最好是要好好檢討因為我們最後就是我現在看一下就是說請教那個檢查品質的問題啦好因為這個很重要我要提完我會加速來那個署長新進檢查員還沒有完成一個月學科訓練跟60次數科的實習他所做的檢查具有法律效益嗎\n688564\t694814\t有嗎有沒有你先回答我有沒有他如果沒有完成就像一個醫生他沒有完成實習\n697025\t719908\t然後他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎?謝謝委員提醒那我們的勞檢有包括監督檢查輔導跟懸導不是你先回答我有沒有法律的效力阿如果實際檢查到訓練合格才可以對所以是沒有的嘛那如果這個不合格的檢察員如果造成人民的權益損失有沒有國家賠償的問題有沒有我想要個案來做討論\n722496\t742914\t所以討論完可能沒有也可能有是這樣嗎因為他已經不合格了然後他還可以到下個階段一個不合格的檢察員然後去做出了對這個廠家做出了決定做出了處分那這個是有效率的嗎他自己已經是不合格了這還有什麼後續討論的問題\n744980\t769895\t你的邏輯也是很奇怪捏那所以國家賠償那是人家你們造成的損失啊那如果在這個高度檢查量的要求之下現在有多少檢察員還沒有完成授訊就在檢查了你有沒有掌握報告員我們都會要求檢察機構的首長跟組長要確定他是有對啦你有要求但你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格然後就去檢查你有沒有掌握目前沒有好\n772509\t797214\t那我在這裡呼籲所有的廠家如果你們有遇到不合格的檢察員勞檢員去檢查的時候或者造成你們的損失麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡來跟我檢舉好不好那我想這個事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災那檢察員到底有沒有責任那是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了\n803424\t815376\t好這些勞動檢查跟預防職貸之間關聯性到底是什麼如果他們不是一個這個正向就是說不是一個絕對正向的關係齁那你們每年增加這個勞檢的次量的意義在哪裡\n816857\t843209\t我丟出這些問題給你啦好那所以我覺得這個就是說我們勞檢的現況角色跟防災的功能我是希望說指安署你們能夠檢查這個解決這個檢查員缺耳日夜這種問題那因為這個已經不是一天兩天了也不能說歸咎於說有沒有這個危險佳績好然後甩鍋給部長去解決\n844309\t863921\t那因為缺額那衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題他結果是一個惡性的循環那關鍵可能在說職安署長期迷戀於這個檢查的次量認為越多越好所以如果沒有好的品質事實證明根本就是你對職災預防是沒有效的\n864281\t886182\t所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題讓署長你們回去好好的檢討好好的質量減少職災的發生減少職災死亡的這個人數才是我們真正關心的事情而不是你去檢查了多少場次然後還要加權計算以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳瑩委員本日會議詢答全部\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們今天請周署長請周署長署長好根據本席的調查您是這個治安署歷年來歷任以來最長壽的署長想必在這麼多年的你任內的這個7年當中呢有不少的豐功偉業那我想說這個這些攻擊呢\n都可以反映在數字上那因為數字會說話所以呢現在就讓我們繼續看下去好來那個首先呢是這個檢查人力短缺的問題我要請教中央級地方現在有就是現在沒有填補的正職檢察員還有多少職缺那其中這個職業安全衛生的這個缺是多少\n報告委員那個缺是一直在浮動 不過我們的正式的編制檢察院大概那個債值率大概是八成五到九成上下在浮動 八成五到九成只缺這一成左右好所以你就講陳述那你沒有具體的這個統計數字對報告委員是浮動的那你今天下班前你把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室好不好\n我手邊的資料是在2月底是我們現在缺額是86人只有86人只有缺86人對是好那這些這些缺額是中央的比較多還是地方政府的這個缺額比較多各位報告委員都有像台北市我目前手邊資料是缺額9個新北市缺更多23個哪裡多啊新北市23桃園12台中16\n那我們的北區也缺8我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺額比較多好那據我所知這些缺額已經就是沒有補齊的這個時間其實已經過了很久了那跟這個去年的這個跟去年的今天比較那我們檢察員的這個人數是增加還是減少緣和沒有變人數減少\n原額沒變人數減少好那其實呢我聽到的聲音就是說新進的這個檢察員然後很多他就是受訓他是他是不來報到的或者是說他實習完的時候呢他就離職就轉掉了那這個是其實是令人非常擔心的問題因為衍生的這個接下來就是說我們衍生了這個我接下來要提問的這些問題\n我們看一下這個檢查檢查次量合理分配的問題有些地方政府呢的這個檢查單位反映只會分配讓他們難以負荷的這個檢查次量並沒有考慮到他們所承擔的這些工作壓力那這個問題其實是呈現到底合理的檢查次數的是多少的問題那署長\n以你的經驗一位檢察員每天合理的檢查場次是多少?我說的場次是工廠的場合理的場次是多少?那是兩場次早上一場下午一場\n一天場次但是這個場其實其實也有分大小嗎如果大到像那個台塑我想他一天你要叫他兩個台塑這麼大的場也是檢查不完的所以因為場次有分大小嗎那當然就是說按照我其實也有參考了這個年報你們這個年報的部分等一下在那邊\n好我我有看了等一下那個因為在桌上吼我有看了你們這個年報吼你們大概就是年報大概一年一百一十一年吧統計的這個數量大概有這個總共\n嗯一百一十一年的檢查機構的這個對事業單位實施這個你們的這個指案會的檢查有171177個場次看起來量還蠻多的17萬多\n好那但是17萬的這個場次我剛剛問的是工廠的場但是17萬這個場是一場兩場的場但是這一場這個場次你們所謂的場次呢其中還包含了這個起重機升降狙擊的座次33000多的座次還有這個鍋爐的6000大概鍋爐的6000座次\n還有這個壓力鍋壓力容器檢查兩萬九千座次還有其他高壓氣體設備的座次也是三萬多這些都是座次那我剛剛把你們這個年報的統計一下這個座次的部分總共有十萬七千一百八十九件所以檢完之後呢\n大概還有7萬7萬的場次你知道我在講什麼然後所以我剛剛把這些換算換算出來我是要我是要告訴你們就是說在你你這個因為我不曉得你今年按照你這樣子換算那我先請教你今年訂定的這個全年的目標是多少場次工廠的場\n那按照你現在就是說你們按照你們這樣算是那個還有場次的場那你覺得多少場工廠的場次跟多少你們算算的場次是是合理的\n謝謝委員提問,剛剛委員提醒那個委員會設備是我們待遇檢查的量你們今年設定的這個全年的目標是要怎麼算我們認為我們同樣已經負荷非常重,我們會以去年維持去年的水平不要減少為原則\n但是你人數減少了所以我們今天就是跟委員報告我們因為我們那個行政院高雄部長支持我們現在有讓同仁有那個風險工作費的一些支持希望同仁能夠留任或留才因為給錢就了事了嗎加個3000塊5000塊就好了嗎\n因為以現有的這個檢察員努力的工作那換算你要算下來他可以合理完成的這個職安署所設定的年度目標嗎可不可以你說加了那個錢也是就加了錢就可以完成這個我講的是合理的目標合理的目標包含有效有品質的檢查所以委員提醒有關合理的工作量我們會再跟各檢察機構做進步的對所以你現在是不知道嗎如果按照你這樣的回答\n我這樣說好了啦我們從檢查年報來看齁我們檢查次量逐年增加嘛那重大值在傷亡的人數並沒有跟著減少啊\n而且他今年看起來是創新高會不會是你們分配給這個縣市政府的負荷量太高了因為我的質疑是說你把kpi定這麼高有用嗎那你定了太高那這個全體這個我們所有的這個勞檢員\n會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎因為大家為了要衝那個量去衝那個數字就是會變成為周署長去創造這個你為你所定的這個目標去創造一個美麗的數字然後會讓周署長\n可以如果在重災重大值在發生的時候那你可以跟立委報告跟全國的民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少的場次是擬定了那個場包含作次的一個量衝很高的一個場次的數據所以\n從這個檢查就是說明年的這個檢查的這個次量我們是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的這個人數來做一個合理的分配而不是你周子蓮坐在辦公室裡定一個盲目的這個數據讓大家無止境的在這邊追求這一直在追求一直在增加去達到你定的KPI嗎因為你定了KPI就有問題嘛\n蘇長怎麼看?謝謝委員提醒我們講質量並重是我們的期待齁那各家機構人力因為就是現在的原流動也是一個很大的困難所以我也提醒跟建議我們會好好來檢討因為我對於你們的統計我是有很大的質疑啦因為呢剛剛講嘛工廠有分大小而且按照蘇長剛剛的回應你們現在已經不用那個早期的工廠的廠次廠次來做計算了那\n現在呢比較誇張的是你們用相次打一打一個勾好這個檢核表裡面打一個勾就算就算一場哎我看你們自己統計也是這樣子一座一個座就就一座就是一場啊你們是這樣子統計的呢\n你你不知道有這個狀況嗎我就說你不知道說打打那個檢核表打個勾就算一場你知道有這個狀況嗎我們這叫做交叉檢查現在交叉檢查檢查到工地或到社道看做一般檢查如果發現特別危險的東西我們鼓勵大家做那個特別危險的項目做檢查所以我們有這樣子的要求\n對阿所以你們有這樣的要求那計算上就要就是給他算一個場次好大家聽到了原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來好這樣我知道了你們就是也是堅持就是要這樣子算那沒關係那你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI\n可以啊因為因為你一個一個項目你就打個勾嘛包委不是一個項目我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際的深入的檢查那在你鼓勵的結果結果是怎麼樣在你的這些鼓勵的方式我們產生的結果是什麼重大職案死亡人數標新高啊包委我們去年比前年略減一點當然我們真的是不滿意我們要再檢討\n最好是要好好檢討因為我們最後就是我現在看一下就是說請教那個檢查品質的問題啦好因為這個很重要我要提完我會加速來那個署長新進檢查員還沒有完成一個月學科訓練跟60次數科的實習他所做的檢查具有法律效益嗎\n有嗎有沒有你先回答我有沒有他如果沒有完成就像一個醫生他沒有完成實習\n然後他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎?謝謝委員提醒那我們的勞檢有包括監督檢查輔導跟懸導不是你先回答我有沒有法律的效力阿如果實際檢查到訓練合格才可以對所以是沒有的嘛那如果這個不合格的檢察員如果造成人民的權益損失有沒有國家賠償的問題有沒有我想要個案來做討論\n所以討論完可能沒有也可能有是這樣嗎因為他已經不合格了然後他還可以到下個階段一個不合格的檢察員然後去做出了對這個廠家做出了決定做出了處分那這個是有效率的嗎他自己已經是不合格了這還有什麼後續討論的問題\n你的邏輯也是很奇怪捏那所以國家賠償那是人家你們造成的損失啊那如果在這個高度檢查量的要求之下現在有多少檢察員還沒有完成授訊就在檢查了你有沒有掌握報告員我們都會要求檢察機構的首長跟組長要確定他是有對啦你有要求但你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格然後就去檢查你有沒有掌握目前沒有好\n那我在這裡呼籲所有的廠家如果你們有遇到不合格的檢察員勞檢員去檢查的時候或者造成你們的損失麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡來跟我檢舉好不好那我想這個事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災那檢察員到底有沒有責任那是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了\n好這些勞動檢查跟預防職貸之間關聯性到底是什麼如果他們不是一個這個正向就是說不是一個絕對正向的關係齁那你們每年增加這個勞檢的次量的意義在哪裡\n我丟出這些問題給你啦好那所以我覺得這個就是說我們勞檢的現況角色跟防災的功能我是希望說指安署你們能夠檢查這個解決這個檢查員缺耳日夜這種問題那因為這個已經不是一天兩天了也不能說歸咎於說有沒有這個危險佳績好然後甩鍋給部長去解決\n那因為缺額那衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題他結果是一個惡性的循環那關鍵可能在說職安署長期迷戀於這個檢查的次量認為越多越好所以如果沒有好的品質事實證明根本就是你對職災預防是沒有效的\n所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題讓署長你們回去好好的檢討好好的質量減少職災的發生減少職災死亡的這個人數才是我們真正關心的事情而不是你去檢查了多少場次然後還要加權計算以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳瑩委員本日會議詢答全部\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.560 --> 00:33.961\n謝謝主席我們今天請周署長請周署長署長好根據本席的調查您是這個治安署歷年來歷任以來最長壽的署長想必在這麼多年的你任內的這個7年當中呢有不少的豐功偉業那我想說這個這些攻擊呢\n\n00:34.641 --> 00:59.702\n都可以反映在數字上那因為數字會說話所以呢現在就讓我們繼續看下去好來那個首先呢是這個檢查人力短缺的問題我要請教中央級地方現在有就是現在沒有填補的正職檢察員還有多少職缺那其中這個職業安全衛生的這個缺是多少\n\n01:00.755 --> 01:28.195\n報告委員那個缺是一直在浮動不過我們的正式的編制檢察院大概那個債值率大概是八成五到九成上下在浮動八成五到九成只缺這一成左右好所以你就講陳述那你沒有具體的這個統計數字對報告委員是浮動的那你今天下班前你把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室好不好\n\n01:29.141 --> 01:54.276\n我手邊的資料是在2月底是我們現在缺額是86人只有86人只有缺86人對是好那這些這些缺額是中央的比較多還是地方政府的這個缺額比較多各位報告委員都有像台北市我目前手邊資料是缺額9個新北市缺更多23個哪裡多啊新北市23桃園12台中16\n\n01:58.069 --> 02:22.561\n那我們的北區也缺8我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺額比較多好那據我所知這些缺額已經就是沒有補齊的這個時間其實已經過了很久了那跟這個去年的這個跟去年的今天比較那我們檢察員的這個人數是增加還是減少緣和沒有變人數減少\n\n02:24.859 --> 02:53.229\n原額沒變人數減少好那其實呢我聽到的聲音就是說新進的這個檢察員然後很多他就是受訓他是他是不來報到的或者是說他實習完的時候呢他就離職就轉掉了那這個是其實是令人非常擔心的問題因為衍生的這個接下來就是說我們衍生了這個我接下來要提問的這些問題\n\n02:54.289 --> 03:20.122\n我們看一下這個檢查檢查次量合理分配的問題有些地方政府呢的這個檢查單位反映只會分配讓他們難以負荷的這個檢查次量並沒有考慮到他們所承擔的這些工作壓力那這個問題其實是呈現到底合理的檢查次數的是多少的問題那署長\n\n03:22.603 --> 03:37.208\n以你的經驗一位檢察員每天合理的檢查場次是多少?我說的場次是工廠的場合理的場次是多少?那是兩場次早上一場下午一場\n\n03:38.226 --> 04:05.766\n一天場次但是這個場其實其實也有分大小嗎如果大到像那個台塑我想他一天你要叫他兩個台塑這麼大的場也是檢查不完的所以因為場次有分大小嗎那當然就是說按照我其實也有參考了這個年報你們這個年報的部分等一下在那邊\n\n04:11.172 --> 04:24.604\n好我我有看了等一下那個因為在桌上吼我有看了你們這個年報吼你們大概就是年報大概一年一百一十一年吧統計的這個數量大概有這個總共\n\n04:26.826 --> 04:35.217\n嗯一百一十一年的檢查機構的這個對事業單位實施這個你們的這個指案會的檢查有171177個場次看起來量還蠻多的17萬多\n\n04:41.886 --> 04:47.270\n好那但是17萬的這個場次我剛剛問的是工廠的場但是17萬這個場是一場兩場的場但是這一場這個場次你們所謂的場次呢其中還包含了這個起重機升降狙擊的座次33000多的座次還有這個鍋爐的6000大概鍋爐的6000座次\n\n05:11.165 --> 05:40.208\n還有這個壓力鍋壓力容器檢查兩萬九千座次還有其他高壓氣體設備的座次也是三萬多這些都是座次那我剛剛把你們這個年報的統計一下這個座次的部分總共有十萬七千一百八十九件所以檢完之後呢\n\n05:42.110 --> 06:06.560\n大概還有7萬7萬的場次你知道我在講什麼然後所以我剛剛把這些換算換算出來我是要我是要告訴你們就是說在你你這個因為我不曉得你今年按照你這樣子換算那我先請教你今年訂定的這個全年的目標是多少場次工廠的場\n\n06:07.981 --> 06:20.859\n那按照你現在就是說你們按照你們這樣算是那個還有場次的場那你覺得多少場工廠的場次跟多少你們算算的場次是是合理的\n\n06:22.652 --> 06:40.864\n謝謝委員提問,剛剛委員提醒那個委員會設備是我們待遇檢查的量你們今年設定的這個全年的目標是要怎麼算我們認為我們同樣已經負荷非常重,我們會以去年維持去年的水平不要減少為原則\n\n06:43.100 --> 06:56.878\n但是你人數減少了所以我們今天就是跟委員報告我們因為我們那個行政院高雄部長支持我們現在有讓同仁有那個風險工作費的一些支持希望同仁能夠留任或留才因為給錢就了事了嗎加個3000塊5000塊就好了嗎\n\n06:59.642 --> 07:28.417\n因為以現有的這個檢察員努力的工作那換算你要算下來他可以合理完成的這個職安署所設定的年度目標嗎可不可以你說加了那個錢也是就加了錢就可以完成這個我講的是合理的目標合理的目標包含有效有品質的檢查所以委員提醒有關合理的工作量我們會再跟各檢察機構做進步的對所以你現在是不知道嗎如果按照你這樣的回答\n\n07:35.422 --> 07:46.037\n我這樣說好了啦我們從檢查年報來看齁我們檢查次量逐年增加嘛那重大值在傷亡的人數並沒有跟著減少啊\n\n07:46.758 --> 08:04.727\n而且他今年看起來是創新高會不會是你們分配給這個縣市政府的負荷量太高了因為我的質疑是說你把kpi定這麼高有用嗎那你定了太高那這個全體這個我們所有的這個勞檢員\n\n08:06.895 --> 08:23.730\n會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎因為大家為了要衝那個量去衝那個數字就是會變成為周署長去創造這個你為你所定的這個目標去創造一個美麗的數字然後會讓周署長\n\n08:24.411 --> 08:39.227\n可以如果在重災重大值在發生的時候那你可以跟立委報告跟全國的民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少的場次是擬定了那個場包含作次的一個量衝很高的一個場次的數據所以\n\n08:42.799 --> 09:09.914\n從這個檢查就是說明年的這個檢查的這個次量我們是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的這個人數來做一個合理的分配而不是你周子蓮坐在辦公室裡定一個盲目的這個數據讓大家無止境的在這邊追求這一直在追求一直在增加去達到你定的KPI嗎因為你定了KPI就有問題嘛\n\n09:11.594 --> 09:37.970\n蘇長怎麼看?謝謝委員提醒我們講質量並重是我們的期待齁那各家機構人力因為就是現在的原流動也是一個很大的困難所以我也提醒跟建議我們會好好來檢討因為我對於你們的統計我是有很大的質疑啦因為呢剛剛講嘛工廠有分大小而且按照蘇長剛剛的回應你們現在已經不用那個早期的工廠的廠次廠次來做計算了那\n\n09:39.071 --> 09:55.309\n現在呢比較誇張的是你們用相次打一打一個勾好這個檢核表裡面打一個勾就算就算一場哎我看你們自己統計也是這樣子一座一個座就就一座就是一場啊你們是這樣子統計的呢\n\n09:57.813 --> 10:18.561\n你你不知道有這個狀況嗎我就說你不知道說打打那個檢核表打個勾就算一場你知道有這個狀況嗎我們這叫做交叉檢查現在交叉檢查檢查到工地或到社道看做一般檢查如果發現特別危險的東西我們鼓勵大家做那個特別危險的項目做檢查所以我們有這樣子的要求\n\n10:19.441 --> 10:37.220\n對阿所以你們有這樣的要求那計算上就要就是給他算一個場次好大家聽到了原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來好這樣我知道了你們就是也是堅持就是要這樣子算那沒關係那你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI\n\n10:41.305 --> 11:04.122\n可以啊因為因為你一個一個項目你就打個勾嘛包委不是一個項目我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際的深入的檢查那在你鼓勵的結果結果是怎麼樣在你的這些鼓勵的方式我們產生的結果是什麼重大職案死亡人數標新高啊包委我們去年比前年略減一點當然我們真的是不滿意我們要再檢討\n\n11:05.183 --> 11:27.057\n最好是要好好檢討因為我們最後就是我現在看一下就是說請教那個檢查品質的問題啦好因為這個很重要我要提完我會加速來那個署長新進檢查員還沒有完成一個月學科訓練跟60次數科的實習他所做的檢查具有法律效益嗎\n\n11:28.564 --> 11:34.814\n有嗎有沒有你先回答我有沒有他如果沒有完成就像一個醫生他沒有完成實習\n\n11:37.025 --> 11:59.908\n然後他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎?謝謝委員提醒那我們的勞檢有包括監督檢查輔導跟懸導不是你先回答我有沒有法律的效力阿如果實際檢查到訓練合格才可以對所以是沒有的嘛那如果這個不合格的檢察員如果造成人民的權益損失有沒有國家賠償的問題有沒有我想要個案來做討論\n\n12:02.496 --> 12:22.914\n所以討論完可能沒有也可能有是這樣嗎因為他已經不合格了然後他還可以到下個階段一個不合格的檢察員然後去做出了對這個廠家做出了決定做出了處分那這個是有效率的嗎他自己已經是不合格了這還有什麼後續討論的問題\n\n12:24.980 --> 12:49.895\n你的邏輯也是很奇怪捏那所以國家賠償那是人家你們造成的損失啊那如果在這個高度檢查量的要求之下現在有多少檢察員還沒有完成授訊就在檢查了你有沒有掌握報告員我們都會要求檢察機構的首長跟組長要確定他是有對啦你有要求但你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格然後就去檢查你有沒有掌握目前沒有好\n\n12:52.509 --> 13:17.214\n那我在這裡呼籲所有的廠家如果你們有遇到不合格的檢察員勞檢員去檢查的時候或者造成你們的損失麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡來跟我檢舉好不好那我想這個事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災那檢察員到底有沒有責任那是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了\n\n13:23.424 --> 13:35.376\n好這些勞動檢查跟預防職貸之間關聯性到底是什麼如果他們不是一個這個正向就是說不是一個絕對正向的關係齁那你們每年增加這個勞檢的次量的意義在哪裡\n\n13:36.857 --> 14:03.209\n我丟出這些問題給你啦好那所以我覺得這個就是說我們勞檢的現況角色跟防災的功能我是希望說指安署你們能夠檢查這個解決這個檢查員缺耳日夜這種問題那因為這個已經不是一天兩天了也不能說歸咎於說有沒有這個危險佳績好然後甩鍋給部長去解決\n\n14:04.309 --> 14:23.921\n那因為缺額那衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題他結果是一個惡性的循環那關鍵可能在說職安署長期迷戀於這個檢查的次量認為越多越好所以如果沒有好的品質事實證明根本就是你對職災預防是沒有效的\n\n14:24.281 --> 14:46.182\n所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題讓署長你們回去好好的檢討好好的質量減少職災的發生減少職災死亡的這個人數才是我們真正關心的事情而不是你去檢查了多少場次然後還要加權計算以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳瑩委員本日會議詢答全部\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.56,"end":33.961,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天請周署長請周署長署長好根據本席的調查您是這個治安署歷年來歷任以來最長壽的署長想必在這麼多年的你任內的這個7年當中呢有不少的豐功偉業那我想說這個這些攻擊呢"},{"start":34.641,"end":59.702,"text":"都可以反映在數字上那因為數字會說話所以呢現在就讓我們繼續看下去好來那個首先呢是這個檢查人力短缺的問題我要請教中央級地方現在有就是現在沒有填補的正職檢察員還有多少職缺那其中這個職業安全衛生的這個缺是多少"},{"start":60.755,"end":88.195,"text":"報告委員那個缺是一直在浮動 不過我們的正式的編制檢察院大概那個債值率大概是八成五到九成上下在浮動 八成五到九成只缺這一成左右好所以你就講陳述那你沒有具體的這個統計數字對報告委員是浮動的那你今天下班前你把截至目前為止的數字給我們辦公室好不好"},{"start":89.141,"end":114.276,"text":"我手邊的資料是在2月底是我們現在缺額是86人只有86人只有缺86人對是好那這些這些缺額是中央的比較多還是地方政府的這個缺額比較多各位報告委員都有像台北市我目前手邊資料是缺額9個新北市缺更多23個哪裡多啊新北市23桃園12台中16"},{"start":118.069,"end":142.561,"text":"那我們的北區也缺8我就問你中央的缺額比較多還是地方政府缺額比較多好那據我所知這些缺額已經就是沒有補齊的這個時間其實已經過了很久了那跟這個去年的這個跟去年的今天比較那我們檢察員的這個人數是增加還是減少緣和沒有變人數減少"},{"start":144.859,"end":173.229,"text":"原額沒變人數減少好那其實呢我聽到的聲音就是說新進的這個檢察員然後很多他就是受訓他是他是不來報到的或者是說他實習完的時候呢他就離職就轉掉了那這個是其實是令人非常擔心的問題因為衍生的這個接下來就是說我們衍生了這個我接下來要提問的這些問題"},{"start":174.289,"end":200.122,"text":"我們看一下這個檢查檢查次量合理分配的問題有些地方政府呢的這個檢查單位反映只會分配讓他們難以負荷的這個檢查次量並沒有考慮到他們所承擔的這些工作壓力那這個問題其實是呈現到底合理的檢查次數的是多少的問題那署長"},{"start":202.603,"end":217.208,"text":"以你的經驗一位檢察員每天合理的檢查場次是多少?我說的場次是工廠的場合理的場次是多少?那是兩場次早上一場下午一場"},{"start":218.226,"end":245.766,"text":"一天場次但是這個場其實其實也有分大小嗎如果大到像那個台塑我想他一天你要叫他兩個台塑這麼大的場也是檢查不完的所以因為場次有分大小嗎那當然就是說按照我其實也有參考了這個年報你們這個年報的部分等一下在那邊"},{"start":251.172,"end":264.604,"text":"好我我有看了等一下那個因為在桌上吼我有看了你們這個年報吼你們大概就是年報大概一年一百一十一年吧統計的這個數量大概有這個總共"},{"start":266.826,"end":275.217,"text":"嗯一百一十一年的檢查機構的這個對事業單位實施這個你們的這個指案會的檢查有171177個場次看起來量還蠻多的17萬多"},{"start":281.886,"end":287.27,"text":"好那但是17萬的這個場次我剛剛問的是工廠的場但是17萬這個場是一場兩場的場但是這一場這個場次你們所謂的場次呢其中還包含了這個起重機升降狙擊的座次33000多的座次還有這個鍋爐的6000大概鍋爐的6000座次"},{"start":311.165,"end":340.208,"text":"還有這個壓力鍋壓力容器檢查兩萬九千座次還有其他高壓氣體設備的座次也是三萬多這些都是座次那我剛剛把你們這個年報的統計一下這個座次的部分總共有十萬七千一百八十九件所以檢完之後呢"},{"start":342.11,"end":366.56,"text":"大概還有7萬7萬的場次你知道我在講什麼然後所以我剛剛把這些換算換算出來我是要我是要告訴你們就是說在你你這個因為我不曉得你今年按照你這樣子換算那我先請教你今年訂定的這個全年的目標是多少場次工廠的場"},{"start":367.981,"end":380.859,"text":"那按照你現在就是說你們按照你們這樣算是那個還有場次的場那你覺得多少場工廠的場次跟多少你們算算的場次是是合理的"},{"start":382.652,"end":400.864,"text":"謝謝委員提問,剛剛委員提醒那個委員會設備是我們待遇檢查的量你們今年設定的這個全年的目標是要怎麼算我們認為我們同樣已經負荷非常重,我們會以去年維持去年的水平不要減少為原則"},{"start":403.1,"end":416.878,"text":"但是你人數減少了所以我們今天就是跟委員報告我們因為我們那個行政院高雄部長支持我們現在有讓同仁有那個風險工作費的一些支持希望同仁能夠留任或留才因為給錢就了事了嗎加個3000塊5000塊就好了嗎"},{"start":419.642,"end":448.417,"text":"因為以現有的這個檢察員努力的工作那換算你要算下來他可以合理完成的這個職安署所設定的年度目標嗎可不可以你說加了那個錢也是就加了錢就可以完成這個我講的是合理的目標合理的目標包含有效有品質的檢查所以委員提醒有關合理的工作量我們會再跟各檢察機構做進步的對所以你現在是不知道嗎如果按照你這樣的回答"},{"start":455.422,"end":466.037,"text":"我這樣說好了啦我們從檢查年報來看齁我們檢查次量逐年增加嘛那重大值在傷亡的人數並沒有跟著減少啊"},{"start":466.758,"end":484.727,"text":"而且他今年看起來是創新高會不會是你們分配給這個縣市政府的負荷量太高了因為我的質疑是說你把kpi定這麼高有用嗎那你定了太高那這個全體這個我們所有的這個勞檢員"},{"start":486.895,"end":503.73,"text":"會有一個什麼狀況你知道嗎因為大家為了要衝那個量去衝那個數字就是會變成為周署長去創造這個你為你所定的這個目標去創造一個美麗的數字然後會讓周署長"},{"start":504.411,"end":519.227,"text":"可以如果在重災重大值在發生的時候那你可以跟立委報告跟全國的民眾報告說我們勞檢了多少的場次是擬定了那個場包含作次的一個量衝很高的一個場次的數據所以"},{"start":522.799,"end":549.914,"text":"從這個檢查就是說明年的這個檢查的這個次量我們是不是應該要根據各地檢查人員的這個人數來做一個合理的分配而不是你周子蓮坐在辦公室裡定一個盲目的這個數據讓大家無止境的在這邊追求這一直在追求一直在增加去達到你定的KPI嗎因為你定了KPI就有問題嘛"},{"start":551.594,"end":577.97,"text":"蘇長怎麼看?謝謝委員提醒我們講質量並重是我們的期待齁那各家機構人力因為就是現在的原流動也是一個很大的困難所以我也提醒跟建議我們會好好來檢討因為我對於你們的統計我是有很大的質疑啦因為呢剛剛講嘛工廠有分大小而且按照蘇長剛剛的回應你們現在已經不用那個早期的工廠的廠次廠次來做計算了那"},{"start":579.071,"end":595.309,"text":"現在呢比較誇張的是你們用相次打一打一個勾好這個檢核表裡面打一個勾就算就算一場哎我看你們自己統計也是這樣子一座一個座就就一座就是一場啊你們是這樣子統計的呢"},{"start":597.813,"end":618.561,"text":"你你不知道有這個狀況嗎我就說你不知道說打打那個檢核表打個勾就算一場你知道有這個狀況嗎我們這叫做交叉檢查現在交叉檢查檢查到工地或到社道看做一般檢查如果發現特別危險的東西我們鼓勵大家做那個特別危險的項目做檢查所以我們有這樣子的要求"},{"start":619.441,"end":637.22,"text":"對阿所以你們有這樣的要求那計算上就要就是給他算一個場次好大家聽到了原來我們的檢查場次是這樣計算出來好這樣我知道了你們就是也是堅持就是要這樣子算那沒關係那你們下次應該訂個20萬之類的KPI"},{"start":641.305,"end":664.122,"text":"可以啊因為因為你一個一個項目你就打個勾嘛包委不是一個項目我們是鼓勵同仁做更實際的深入的檢查那在你鼓勵的結果結果是怎麼樣在你的這些鼓勵的方式我們產生的結果是什麼重大職案死亡人數標新高啊包委我們去年比前年略減一點當然我們真的是不滿意我們要再檢討"},{"start":665.183,"end":687.057,"text":"最好是要好好檢討因為我們最後就是我現在看一下就是說請教那個檢查品質的問題啦好因為這個很重要我要提完我會加速來那個署長新進檢查員還沒有完成一個月學科訓練跟60次數科的實習他所做的檢查具有法律效益嗎"},{"start":688.564,"end":694.814,"text":"有嗎有沒有你先回答我有沒有他如果沒有完成就像一個醫生他沒有完成實習"},{"start":697.025,"end":719.908,"text":"然後他可以算是一個合格的醫生嗎?謝謝委員提醒那我們的勞檢有包括監督檢查輔導跟懸導不是你先回答我有沒有法律的效力阿如果實際檢查到訓練合格才可以對所以是沒有的嘛那如果這個不合格的檢察員如果造成人民的權益損失有沒有國家賠償的問題有沒有我想要個案來做討論"},{"start":722.496,"end":742.914,"text":"所以討論完可能沒有也可能有是這樣嗎因為他已經不合格了然後他還可以到下個階段一個不合格的檢察員然後去做出了對這個廠家做出了決定做出了處分那這個是有效率的嗎他自己已經是不合格了這還有什麼後續討論的問題"},{"start":744.98,"end":769.895,"text":"你的邏輯也是很奇怪捏那所以國家賠償那是人家你們造成的損失啊那如果在這個高度檢查量的要求之下現在有多少檢察員還沒有完成授訊就在檢查了你有沒有掌握報告員我們都會要求檢察機構的首長跟組長要確定他是有對啦你有要求但你有沒有掌握這些人沒有拿到資格然後就去檢查你有沒有掌握目前沒有好"},{"start":772.509,"end":797.214,"text":"那我在這裡呼籲所有的廠家如果你們有遇到不合格的檢察員勞檢員去檢查的時候或者造成你們的損失麻煩跟本席辦公室聯絡來跟我檢舉好不好那我想這個事業單位如果檢查合格沒有多久就發生職災那檢察員到底有沒有責任那是不是檢查合格之後就不會發生職災了"},{"start":803.424,"end":815.376,"text":"好這些勞動檢查跟預防職貸之間關聯性到底是什麼如果他們不是一個這個正向就是說不是一個絕對正向的關係齁那你們每年增加這個勞檢的次量的意義在哪裡"},{"start":816.857,"end":843.209,"text":"我丟出這些問題給你啦好那所以我覺得這個就是說我們勞檢的現況角色跟防災的功能我是希望說指安署你們能夠檢查這個解決這個檢查員缺耳日夜這種問題那因為這個已經不是一天兩天了也不能說歸咎於說有沒有這個危險佳績好然後甩鍋給部長去解決"},{"start":844.309,"end":863.921,"text":"那因為缺額那衍生檢查次量合理分配的問題他結果是一個惡性的循環那關鍵可能在說職安署長期迷戀於這個檢查的次量認為越多越好所以如果沒有好的品質事實證明根本就是你對職災預防是沒有效的"},{"start":864.281,"end":886.182,"text":"所以我今天特別提出這樣的問題讓署長你們回去好好的檢討好好的質量減少職災的發生減少職災死亡的這個人數才是我們真正關心的事情而不是你去檢查了多少場次然後還要加權計算以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳瑩委員本日會議詢答全部"}]}}}}