{"id":149838,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135e5f8a58ca2ad7a3bd1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6bc170b242c5881665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:29:56 - 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ROE或者北約的ROE，還有Sanremo Handbook的ROE，我自己有稍微翻閱了一下，我個人是認為紅色這一個是一個蠻不錯可以參照的準則，但是我今天看到陳上將有帶Cooper的那一個，可能是北約的，我覺得那一本也不錯。但在這個框架之下，我想給部長看的就是我們在所謂的交戰規則裡面，按照部長上次的講法，我們有突發狀況的應變準則……"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個是ROE的細緻化，就是如果對方做了什麼，我們應該相對應要做什麼。我這邊就擷取了其中一頁，這是國外的，譬如在心戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分，它裡面的確有提到什麼時候我們可以發動心戰、我們什麼時候心戰的哪一些手段可以做，它有很清楚的等於是範本讓我們去填補，但是在這個上面卻沒有提到到底它對於心戰的定義是什麼，就像我們在禮拜二討論的，到底輿論戰的定義是什麼，在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者、提到側翼組織、官方媒體，我們到底要怎麼去定性它，然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰，這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早是在國防白皮書比較常看到……"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：但我總覺得國防白皮書應該不適合當作是我們的一個doctrine……"],["邱部長國正：不行。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個doctrine可以比較清楚地讓國人知道，不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，所謂灰色地帶這個問題，除了在地帶以外，它連同世界有很多灰色的，但是誠如剛剛委員講的，中共認為它說了算，它說了算的事情很多，但它做了我們有沒有認同，它說了算它要做，但不可能的，因為我們有我們的想法，我只是平常沒有跟你去做口語方面的辯論，但事實上我們在準備，就是你說了算，但我要讓你知道，你說了以後不見得算，而且不能算，我們要做的就這個，所以在這一方面要持續努力。","現在環境變化很大，再加上每一個人有每一個人的想法、表達、各方面，一冠上民主自由的話，很多地方我們就受到限制，但國軍在這一方面釐得很清楚，不做討論，但一直很認清自己的本務，而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚，平常在這個界限以內、範圍以內一有狀況來，把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個scenario，就像想定一樣，強化演練是我們唯一能做的。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為時間有限，我快速地再往後追加一個小問題就可以了。就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概也已經討論了兩個禮拜，我這邊就不再多說。我想要去問一下，在美國的NDAA，就是國防授權法案，裡面目前來講除了魚叉反艦飛彈等等之類的，還有蠻重要的就是它對於臺灣有點像是全面性國防韌性的加強，其實美國現在有越來越多的方案，在這一些方案的擬定當中，目前國軍應對與承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，首先我們要表達感激、謝謝，因為有任何一個不管團體或國家願意幫我們，都是一個正面的看法，我們樂見，但這個授權法案也好或者強化臺灣的韌性，這個法案是一個法案，要怎麼樣來強化、怎麼樣來授權、要給我們什麼，是經過討論的，不光是我們國防部跟它要討論，而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論，因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的，這一點我特別跟委員報告，絕對不會面對一個國家我們就決定了，一定經過大家的協調，大家又資源共用，而且能夠獲得共同利益，共同防衛我們國家的安全，從這個著眼。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題，感謝！我之後可能就會針對國防授權法案的一些細節再就教部長……"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳永康委員上臺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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04:08:44","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 04:09:17","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149838 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-06-02 04:09:17","msg":"running whisperx with  --language zh --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）\n發言委員：沈伯洋'"},{"time":"2024-06-02 04:09:40","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-06-02 04:09:40","msg":"status: done"}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 0.509, \"end\": 3.632, \"text\": \"那謝謝主席 那有請邱部長 謝謝請邱部長沈委員好邱部長好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 0.509, \"end\": 0.91, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 0.91, \"end\": 1.07, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1.07, \"end\": 1.21, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1.21, \"end\": 1.37, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1.37, \"end\": 1.51, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, 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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 737.722, \"end\": 737.862, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 737.862, \"end\": 737.882, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,509 --> 00:00:03,632\n那謝謝主席那有請邱部長謝謝請邱部長沈委員好邱部長好\n\n2\n00:00:19,906 --> 00:00:36,215\n因為今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰那也十分的尷尬因為從上禮拜到現在也一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容沒有想到今天又再一次不過呢我先從這張圖開始這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰這個所謂的一個論文的圖形\n\n3\n00:00:38,496 --> 00:00:55,394\n那在這邊有兩點我覺得是值得重視的就是第一個他在左邊認為說一些比較典型的一些政治上或者外交上等等的施壓否定的經濟或者大家常講的認知作戰在左邊那真正的已經到這個比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊\n\n4\n00:00:56,355 --> 00:01:24,970\n所以這就剛好也呼應了在這個質詢的那一天我們有提到就是說其實很多事情它都是一個層次的問題它在一個光譜上面所以我們在那一天有討論到這一個所謂輿論戰也就是認知作戰的定義那部長那天也有提到稍微其中的一個標準但在此也要呼籲很多媒體其實聽完部長的回答之後也都講到說都認為輿論戰這個認定尤其是在地協力者的部分是一件非常困難的事情\n\n5\n00:01:25,690 --> 00:01:50,359\n這只有特定的幾家媒體故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準就是說只要是對我方不利敵軍有利的那就可以落入到這一個範疇所以有些報紙更是坐實的更是自己在向在地協力者這邊還是要再度聲明那第二個呢我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡就是說呢我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突它是一些比較低度的\n\n6\n00:01:50,879 --> 00:01:50,999\n沈伯洋\n\n7\n00:02:12,590 --> 00:02:36,665\n在2022這是藍德的一個報告那他們在講這個所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候呢把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的還有cyber的這個網路的然後還有經濟的然後還有這個所謂的政治的那他並不是一個陳生的圖形他在做這些數量上的比較的時候呢說台灣目前是對這個中國灰色侵擾呢看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家\n\n8\n00:02:37,544 --> 00:03:00,448\n因為我們簡單的一個例子比如說今天不管是軍事還是網路不太會因為說今天網路比較多軍事變得比較少或者軍事比較多網路比較少所以在政治也有可能變成說政治跟軍事變成是平行的兩條線那因為在過往部長在針對這個題目有一些發言的時候有說軍事是政治的衍生一個非常有名的句子\n\n9\n00:03:01,388 --> 00:03:26,307\n說政治上有一個共識就比較不會有這個軍事愉悅的行為發生那但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講他反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭那所以呢反而在灰色地帶作戰的時候呢他已經不是一個兩極化的一個光譜的一個圖形而是一個像是圓圈一樣他會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個\n\n10\n00:03:27,048 --> 00:03:27,469\n沈伯洋\n\n11\n00:03:36,345 --> 00:03:56,041\n委員講得很好,這些話我曾經講過,軍事政策延長,這不容否認。另外,用兵施法,上兵伐謀,然後伐交,然後伐兵,這也是一個名言,也是一個定理。現在就是一個環境的變遷,很多東西混在一道。所以我記得委員那一天,第一個就是認知作戰的問題。\n\n12\n00:03:57,142 --> 00:03:58,063\n沈副局長：沈副局長：沈副局長：\n\n13\n00:04:22,464 --> 00:04:35,800\n謹慎的聖,我一直在強調聖戰,不是神聖的聖。謹慎,我想不管是領導者或各方的領導人,他都應該要有這種智慧,要去考量要不要發起這個。\n\n14\n00:04:37,202 --> 00:04:59,678\n他怎麼做,方法很多。他說做好很多,也可以引導我們,有個應對的方法,也會變多。但最後的終結,就看兩邊的領導人員或上層的,或有政治考量的人物,他能不能把它分辨,這一段跟那一段,這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的,不能把它攪在一道。他要攪在一道,我們要把它分開,這就是我們的能耐。\n\n15\n00:05:01,459 --> 00:05:26,335\n謝謝部長,那部長提到一個非常重要的關鍵就是他的方法真的非常的多元就是說不管先是政治的還是經濟的其實都包含在這個灰色衝突裡面所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到就是說其實需要更多更部會的大家一起來觀察就是他灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾那所以呢這一個以往的我們很容易就覺得說這個政治一旦穩定之後呢這個軍事是比較不容易發生的\n\n16\n00:05:26,877 --> 00:05:46,775\n那這個烏克蘭的議員因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員那他也有來台灣他有提到說引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺他話是講得比較重那因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的一個國家那簡單來講他是認為說如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議那這個時候會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮\n\n17\n00:05:49,858 --> 00:06:15,462\n那在我們退縮的同時呢按照毛澤東的講法呢反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候如果說我們在島內更多人想要投降的時候反而是他進攻的最佳時機所以這個就讓我想到因為昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會然後就有一個這個官方的這個記者就問了這句話說說我們的部長提到說我們現在在敵情強化訓練然後就說您是在這個以武謀獨但我相信這個部長應該不同意這句話吧\n\n18\n00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:17,400\n沈伯洋議員\n\n19\n00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:47,901\n感謝部長遵守言論紀律\n\n20\n00:07:02,970 --> 00:07:18,588\n其實在這個灰色地帶衝突當中很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱但是這個例子就是讓我們知道了一件事情就是不管我們做什麼事情其實有時候我們到底在我們的定調是什麼跟我們自己怎麼想\n\n21\n00:07:19,028 --> 00:07:37,725\n其實中國完全沒有在理會我們他會自己去定調我們的行為然後自己再去說根據我們的行為他要做出什麼樣的反制這也會導致這次在海巡事件裡面即使我們遵守了這些規章我們也遵守了國際法但他只要一句話說我們不遵守他就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態\n\n22\n00:07:39,426 --> 00:07:54,975\n這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元那這個也是在我記得是在上個禮拜的時候呢也有跟部長提到就是還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義跟機制是能夠快一點出來就是說我們能夠快速的讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做這一個灰色地帶\n\n23\n00:07:55,715 --> 00:08:23,599\n那這個我一直都認為因為這個我們的陳永康上將一直有提到這個ROE那這個ROE呢因為也是他的專長這邊我就不智慧了那一直以來呢我們對於ROE的一些規則裡面譬如說這邊有這個美國的這個Standing的ROE或者北約的ROE還有這一個那個Ceremon的這個Handbook的ROE那我自己有稍微翻閱了一下我個人是認為紅色的這一個是一個蠻不錯的一個可以參照的準則但是我今天有看到\n\n24\n00:08:24,299 --> 00:08:38,950\n沈上將有帶這一個庫珀的那一個可能是北約的那我覺得那一本也不錯那在這個框架之下我想給部長看的就是說我們在所謂的這一個交戰的這個規則裡面因為我們現在按照部長上次的講法我們有這個突發狀況的這個應變的準則\n\n25\n00:08:41,592 --> 00:09:00,842\n這個是這一個ROE的細緻化就是說如果對方做了什麼我們應該相對應要做什麼那我這邊就擷取了其中一頁就是這是國外的像譬如說在新戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分它裡面的確有提到那什麼時候我們可以發動新戰我們什麼時候新戰的哪一些手段可以做它有很清楚的這一個等於是一個範本讓我們去填補\n\n26\n00:09:02,903 --> 00:09:21,249\n但是他在這個上面他卻沒有提到就是到底他對於新戰的定義是什麼那就像我們在禮拜二討論的到底輿論戰的定義是什麼在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者啊提到這個側翼組織啊官方媒體啊我們到底要怎麼去定性他然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰\n\n27\n00:09:21,889 --> 00:09:51,036\n那這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早我們是在國防白皮書是比較常看到但我總覺得國防白皮書應該不適合當作是我們的一個Doctrine所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個Doctrine可以比較清楚的讓國人知道不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法是我跟委員報告說灰色地帶這個問題除了在地帶以外它連同事件有很多灰色的但是沈伯洋委員講了他中共認為他說了算他說了算的事情很多但他做了\n\n28\n00:09:51,696 --> 00:10:09,070\n我們有沒有認同他說了算他要做不可能的因為我們有我們的想法我只是在平常沒有跟你去做一個口語方面辯論但事實上我們在準備就是說你說了算但我要讓你知道你說了以後不見得算而且\n\n29\n00:10:10,165 --> 00:10:27,734\n不能算,我們要做就這個所以在這方面要持續努力這樣環境變化很大再加上每個人想法表達各方面一冠上一個民主自由的話很多地方我們就受到限制但國軍在這一方面離得很清楚\n\n30\n00:10:28,334 --> 00:10:49,292\n不做討論,但一直很認清自己的本務,而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚。平常在這個界限範圍以內,一有狀況來,把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個scenario,就像想定一樣,強化演練,這是我們唯一能做的。\n\n31\n00:10:50,693 --> 00:11:05,985\n謝謝部長,因為時間有限,我快速的再往後追加一個小問題就可以了,就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概已經也是討論了兩個禮拜,我這邊就不再多說,我想要去問一下就是在我們這一個這個美國的NDAA,就是這個國防授權法案\n\n32\n00:11:07,506 --> 00:11:28,207\n就是在這個國防授權法案裡面因為目前來講除了這個魚叉反艦的飛彈等等之類的然後還有蠻重要的就是它對於台灣有點像是全面性的這個國防的韌性的加強其實美國現在有越來越多的方案那在這一些方案的擬定當中目前國軍應對然後跟承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼\n\n33\n00:11:28,837 --> 00:11:45,346\n我跟委員報告,首先我們要表達感激,謝謝。因為有任何一個,不管團體或國家願意幫我們,都是一個正面的看法,我們樂見。但這個授權法案也好,或者是強制台灣的這個韌性,這法案是一個法案,但要怎麼樣來強化,怎麼樣來授權,要給我們什麼,那經過討論的。\n\n34\n00:11:50,188 --> 00:12:17,882\n不光是我們國防部跟他來討論而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的這一點我就特別跟委員報告絕對不會我們一個面對一個國家我們就決定了一定經過大家的協調大家的支援共用而且能夠獲得共同利益來共同防衛我們國家的安全這個作業沒問題感謝那我之後可能就會在國防授權法案的一些細節然後再就教部長那謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n509\t3632\t那謝謝主席 那有請邱部長 謝謝請邱部長沈委員好邱部長好\n19906\t36215\t因為今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰那也十分的尷尬因為從上禮拜到現在也一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容沒有想到今天又再一次不過呢我先從這張圖開始這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰這個所謂的一個論文的圖形\n38496\t55394\t那在這邊有兩點我覺得是值得重視的就是第一個他在左邊認為說一些比較典型的一些政治上或者外交上等等的施壓否定的經濟或者大家常講的認知作戰在左邊那真正的已經到這個比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊\n56355\t84970\t所以這就剛好也呼應了在這個質詢的那一天我們有提到就是說其實很多事情它都是一個層次的問題它在一個光譜上面所以我們在那一天有討論到這一個所謂輿論戰也就是認知作戰的定義那部長那天也有提到稍微其中的一個標準但在此也要呼籲很多媒體其實聽完部長的回答之後也都講到說都認為輿論戰這個認定尤其是在地協力者的部分是一件非常困難的事情\n85690\t110359\t這只有特定的幾家媒體故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準就是說只要是對我方不利敵軍有利的那就可以落入到這一個範疇所以有些報紙更是坐實的更是自己在向在地協力者這邊還是要再度聲明那第二個呢我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡就是說呢我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突它是一些比較低度的\n110879\t110999\t沈伯洋\n132590\t156665\t在2022這是藍德的一個報告那他們在講這個所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候呢把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的還有cyber的這個網路的然後還有經濟的然後還有這個所謂的政治的那他並不是一個陳生的圖形他在做這些數量上的比較的時候呢說台灣目前是對這個中國灰色侵擾呢看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家\n157544\t180448\t因為我們簡單的一個例子比如說今天不管是軍事還是網路不太會因為說今天網路比較多軍事變得比較少或者軍事比較多網路比較少所以在政治也有可能變成說政治跟軍事變成是平行的兩條線那因為在過往部長在針對這個題目有一些發言的時候有說軍事是政治的衍生一個非常有名的句子\n181388\t206307\t說政治上有一個共識就比較不會有這個軍事愉悅的行為發生那但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講他反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭那所以呢反而在灰色地帶作戰的時候呢他已經不是一個兩極化的一個光譜的一個圖形而是一個像是圓圈一樣他會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個\n207048\t207469\t沈伯洋\n216345\t236041\t委員講得很好,這些話我曾經講過,軍事政策延長,這不容否認。另外,用兵施法,上兵伐謀,然後伐交,然後伐兵,這也是一個名言,也是一個定理。現在就是一個環境的變遷,很多東西混在一道。所以我記得委員那一天,第一個就是認知作戰的問題。\n237142\t238063\t沈副局長：沈副局長：沈副局長：\n262464\t275800\t謹慎的聖,我一直在強調聖戰,不是神聖的聖。謹慎,我想不管是領導者或各方的領導人,他都應該要有這種智慧,要去考量要不要發起這個。\n277202\t299678\t他怎麼做,方法很多。他說做好很多,也可以引導我們,有個應對的方法,也會變多。但最後的終結,就看兩邊的領導人員或上層的,或有政治考量的人物,他能不能把它分辨,這一段跟那一段,這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的,不能把它攪在一道。他要攪在一道,我們要把它分開,這就是我們的能耐。\n301459\t326335\t謝謝部長,那部長提到一個非常重要的關鍵就是他的方法真的非常的多元就是說不管先是政治的還是經濟的其實都包含在這個灰色衝突裡面所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到就是說其實需要更多更部會的大家一起來觀察就是他灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾那所以呢這一個以往的我們很容易就覺得說這個政治一旦穩定之後呢這個軍事是比較不容易發生的\n326877\t346775\t那這個烏克蘭的議員因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員那他也有來台灣他有提到說引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺他話是講得比較重那因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的一個國家那簡單來講他是認為說如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議那這個時候會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮\n349858\t375462\t那在我們退縮的同時呢按照毛澤東的講法呢反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候如果說我們在島內更多人想要投降的時候反而是他進攻的最佳時機所以這個就讓我想到因為昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會然後就有一個這個官方的這個記者就問了這句話說說我們的部長提到說我們現在在敵情強化訓練然後就說您是在這個以武謀獨但我相信這個部長應該不同意這句話吧\n377040\t377400\t沈伯洋議員\n407000\t407901\t感謝部長遵守言論紀律\n422970\t438588\t其實在這個灰色地帶衝突當中很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱但是這個例子就是讓我們知道了一件事情就是不管我們做什麼事情其實有時候我們到底在我們的定調是什麼跟我們自己怎麼想\n439028\t457725\t其實中國完全沒有在理會我們他會自己去定調我們的行為然後自己再去說根據我們的行為他要做出什麼樣的反制這也會導致這次在海巡事件裡面即使我們遵守了這些規章我們也遵守了國際法但他只要一句話說我們不遵守他就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態\n459426\t474975\t這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元那這個也是在我記得是在上個禮拜的時候呢也有跟部長提到就是還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義跟機制是能夠快一點出來就是說我們能夠快速的讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做這一個灰色地帶\n475715\t503599\t那這個我一直都認為因為這個我們的陳永康上將一直有提到這個ROE那這個ROE呢因為也是他的專長這邊我就不智慧了那一直以來呢我們對於ROE的一些規則裡面譬如說這邊有這個美國的這個Standing的ROE或者北約的ROE還有這一個那個Ceremon的這個Handbook的ROE那我自己有稍微翻閱了一下我個人是認為紅色的這一個是一個蠻不錯的一個可以參照的準則但是我今天有看到\n504299\t518950\t沈上將有帶這一個庫珀的那一個可能是北約的那我覺得那一本也不錯那在這個框架之下我想給部長看的就是說我們在所謂的這一個交戰的這個規則裡面因為我們現在按照部長上次的講法我們有這個突發狀況的這個應變的準則\n521592\t540842\t這個是這一個ROE的細緻化就是說如果對方做了什麼我們應該相對應要做什麼那我這邊就擷取了其中一頁就是這是國外的像譬如說在新戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分它裡面的確有提到那什麼時候我們可以發動新戰我們什麼時候新戰的哪一些手段可以做它有很清楚的這一個等於是一個範本讓我們去填補\n542903\t561249\t但是他在這個上面他卻沒有提到就是到底他對於新戰的定義是什麼那就像我們在禮拜二討論的到底輿論戰的定義是什麼在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者啊提到這個側翼組織啊官方媒體啊我們到底要怎麼去定性他然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰\n561889\t591036\t那這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早我們是在國防白皮書是比較常看到但我總覺得國防白皮書應該不適合當作是我們的一個Doctrine所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個Doctrine可以比較清楚的讓國人知道不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法是我跟委員報告說灰色地帶這個問題除了在地帶以外它連同事件有很多灰色的但是沈伯洋委員講了他中共認為他說了算他說了算的事情很多但他做了\n591696\t609070\t我們有沒有認同他說了算他要做不可能的因為我們有我們的想法我只是在平常沒有跟你去做一個口語方面辯論但事實上我們在準備就是說你說了算但我要讓你知道你說了以後不見得算而且\n610165\t627734\t不能算,我們要做就這個所以在這方面要持續努力這樣環境變化很大再加上每個人想法表達各方面一冠上一個民主自由的話很多地方我們就受到限制但國軍在這一方面離得很清楚\n628334\t649292\t不做討論,但一直很認清自己的本務,而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚。平常在這個界限範圍以內,一有狀況來,把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個scenario,就像想定一樣,強化演練,這是我們唯一能做的。\n650693\t665985\t謝謝部長,因為時間有限,我快速的再往後追加一個小問題就可以了,就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概已經也是討論了兩個禮拜,我這邊就不再多說,我想要去問一下就是在我們這一個這個美國的NDAA,就是這個國防授權法案\n667506\t688207\t就是在這個國防授權法案裡面因為目前來講除了這個魚叉反艦的飛彈等等之類的然後還有蠻重要的就是它對於台灣有點像是全面性的這個國防的韌性的加強其實美國現在有越來越多的方案那在這一些方案的擬定當中目前國軍應對然後跟承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼\n688837\t705346\t我跟委員報告,首先我們要表達感激,謝謝。因為有任何一個,不管團體或國家願意幫我們,都是一個正面的看法,我們樂見。但這個授權法案也好,或者是強制台灣的這個韌性,這法案是一個法案,但要怎麼樣來強化,怎麼樣來授權,要給我們什麼,那經過討論的。\n710188\t737882\t不光是我們國防部跟他來討論而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的這一點我就特別跟委員報告絕對不會我們一個面對一個國家我們就決定了一定經過大家的協調大家的支援共用而且能夠獲得共同利益來共同防衛我們國家的安全這個作業沒問題感謝那我之後可能就會在國防授權法案的一些細節然後再就教部長那謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員\n","txt":"那謝謝主席 那有請邱部長 謝謝請邱部長沈委員好邱部長好\n因為今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰那也十分的尷尬因為從上禮拜到現在也一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容沒有想到今天又再一次不過呢我先從這張圖開始這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰這個所謂的一個論文的圖形\n那在這邊有兩點我覺得是值得重視的就是第一個他在左邊認為說一些比較典型的一些政治上或者外交上等等的施壓否定的經濟或者大家常講的認知作戰在左邊那真正的已經到這個比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊\n所以這就剛好也呼應了在這個質詢的那一天我們有提到就是說其實很多事情它都是一個層次的問題它在一個光譜上面所以我們在那一天有討論到這一個所謂輿論戰也就是認知作戰的定義那部長那天也有提到稍微其中的一個標準但在此也要呼籲很多媒體其實聽完部長的回答之後也都講到說都認為輿論戰這個認定尤其是在地協力者的部分是一件非常困難的事情\n這只有特定的幾家媒體故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準就是說只要是對我方不利敵軍有利的那就可以落入到這一個範疇所以有些報紙更是坐實的更是自己在向在地協力者這邊還是要再度聲明那第二個呢我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡就是說呢我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突它是一些比較低度的\n沈伯洋\n在2022這是藍德的一個報告那他們在講這個所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候呢把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的還有cyber的這個網路的然後還有經濟的然後還有這個所謂的政治的那他並不是一個陳生的圖形他在做這些數量上的比較的時候呢說台灣目前是對這個中國灰色侵擾呢看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家\n因為我們簡單的一個例子比如說今天不管是軍事還是網路不太會因為說今天網路比較多軍事變得比較少或者軍事比較多網路比較少所以在政治也有可能變成說政治跟軍事變成是平行的兩條線那因為在過往部長在針對這個題目有一些發言的時候有說軍事是政治的衍生一個非常有名的句子\n說政治上有一個共識就比較不會有這個軍事愉悅的行為發生那但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講他反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭那所以呢反而在灰色地帶作戰的時候呢他已經不是一個兩極化的一個光譜的一個圖形而是一個像是圓圈一樣他會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個\n沈伯洋\n委員講得很好,這些話我曾經講過,軍事政策延長,這不容否認。另外,用兵施法,上兵伐謀,然後伐交,然後伐兵,這也是一個名言,也是一個定理。現在就是一個環境的變遷,很多東西混在一道。所以我記得委員那一天,第一個就是認知作戰的問題。\n沈副局長：沈副局長：沈副局長：\n謹慎的聖,我一直在強調聖戰,不是神聖的聖。謹慎,我想不管是領導者或各方的領導人,他都應該要有這種智慧,要去考量要不要發起這個。\n他怎麼做,方法很多。他說做好很多,也可以引導我們,有個應對的方法,也會變多。但最後的終結,就看兩邊的領導人員或上層的,或有政治考量的人物,他能不能把它分辨,這一段跟那一段,這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的,不能把它攪在一道。他要攪在一道,我們要把它分開,這就是我們的能耐。\n謝謝部長,那部長提到一個非常重要的關鍵就是他的方法真的非常的多元就是說不管先是政治的還是經濟的其實都包含在這個灰色衝突裡面所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到就是說其實需要更多更部會的大家一起來觀察就是他灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾那所以呢這一個以往的我們很容易就覺得說這個政治一旦穩定之後呢這個軍事是比較不容易發生的\n那這個烏克蘭的議員因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員那他也有來台灣他有提到說引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺他話是講得比較重那因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的一個國家那簡單來講他是認為說如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議那這個時候會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮\n那在我們退縮的同時呢按照毛澤東的講法呢反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候如果說我們在島內更多人想要投降的時候反而是他進攻的最佳時機所以這個就讓我想到因為昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會然後就有一個這個官方的這個記者就問了這句話說說我們的部長提到說我們現在在敵情強化訓練然後就說您是在這個以武謀獨但我相信這個部長應該不同意這句話吧\n沈伯洋議員\n感謝部長遵守言論紀律\n其實在這個灰色地帶衝突當中很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱但是這個例子就是讓我們知道了一件事情就是不管我們做什麼事情其實有時候我們到底在我們的定調是什麼跟我們自己怎麼想\n其實中國完全沒有在理會我們他會自己去定調我們的行為然後自己再去說根據我們的行為他要做出什麼樣的反制這也會導致這次在海巡事件裡面即使我們遵守了這些規章我們也遵守了國際法但他只要一句話說我們不遵守他就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態\n這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元那這個也是在我記得是在上個禮拜的時候呢也有跟部長提到就是還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義跟機制是能夠快一點出來就是說我們能夠快速的讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做這一個灰色地帶\n那這個我一直都認為因為這個我們的陳永康上將一直有提到這個ROE那這個ROE呢因為也是他的專長這邊我就不智慧了那一直以來呢我們對於ROE的一些規則裡面譬如說這邊有這個美國的這個Standing的ROE或者北約的ROE還有這一個那個Ceremon的這個Handbook的ROE那我自己有稍微翻閱了一下我個人是認為紅色的這一個是一個蠻不錯的一個可以參照的準則但是我今天有看到\n沈上將有帶這一個庫珀的那一個可能是北約的那我覺得那一本也不錯那在這個框架之下我想給部長看的就是說我們在所謂的這一個交戰的這個規則裡面因為我們現在按照部長上次的講法我們有這個突發狀況的這個應變的準則\n這個是這一個ROE的細緻化就是說如果對方做了什麼我們應該相對應要做什麼那我這邊就擷取了其中一頁就是這是國外的像譬如說在新戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分它裡面的確有提到那什麼時候我們可以發動新戰我們什麼時候新戰的哪一些手段可以做它有很清楚的這一個等於是一個範本讓我們去填補\n但是他在這個上面他卻沒有提到就是到底他對於新戰的定義是什麼那就像我們在禮拜二討論的到底輿論戰的定義是什麼在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者啊提到這個側翼組織啊官方媒體啊我們到底要怎麼去定性他然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰\n那這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早我們是在國防白皮書是比較常看到但我總覺得國防白皮書應該不適合當作是我們的一個Doctrine所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個Doctrine可以比較清楚的讓國人知道不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法是我跟委員報告說灰色地帶這個問題除了在地帶以外它連同事件有很多灰色的但是沈伯洋委員講了他中共認為他說了算他說了算的事情很多但他做了\n我們有沒有認同他說了算他要做不可能的因為我們有我們的想法我只是在平常沒有跟你去做一個口語方面辯論但事實上我們在準備就是說你說了算但我要讓你知道你說了以後不見得算而且\n不能算,我們要做就這個所以在這方面要持續努力這樣環境變化很大再加上每個人想法表達各方面一冠上一個民主自由的話很多地方我們就受到限制但國軍在這一方面離得很清楚\n不做討論,但一直很認清自己的本務,而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚。平常在這個界限範圍以內,一有狀況來,把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個scenario,就像想定一樣,強化演練,這是我們唯一能做的。\n謝謝部長,因為時間有限,我快速的再往後追加一個小問題就可以了,就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概已經也是討論了兩個禮拜,我這邊就不再多說,我想要去問一下就是在我們這一個這個美國的NDAA,就是這個國防授權法案\n就是在這個國防授權法案裡面因為目前來講除了這個魚叉反艦的飛彈等等之類的然後還有蠻重要的就是它對於台灣有點像是全面性的這個國防的韌性的加強其實美國現在有越來越多的方案那在這一些方案的擬定當中目前國軍應對然後跟承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼\n我跟委員報告,首先我們要表達感激,謝謝。因為有任何一個,不管團體或國家願意幫我們,都是一個正面的看法,我們樂見。但這個授權法案也好,或者是強制台灣的這個韌性,這法案是一個法案,但要怎麼樣來強化,怎麼樣來授權,要給我們什麼,那經過討論的。\n不光是我們國防部跟他來討論而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的這一點我就特別跟委員報告絕對不會我們一個面對一個國家我們就決定了一定經過大家的協調大家的支援共用而且能夠獲得共同利益來共同防衛我們國家的安全這個作業沒問題感謝那我之後可能就會在國防授權法案的一些細節然後再就教部長那謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.509 --> 00:03.632\n那謝謝主席那有請邱部長謝謝請邱部長沈委員好邱部長好\n\n00:19.906 --> 00:36.215\n因為今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰那也十分的尷尬因為從上禮拜到現在也一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容沒有想到今天又再一次不過呢我先從這張圖開始這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰這個所謂的一個論文的圖形\n\n00:38.496 --> 00:55.394\n那在這邊有兩點我覺得是值得重視的就是第一個他在左邊認為說一些比較典型的一些政治上或者外交上等等的施壓否定的經濟或者大家常講的認知作戰在左邊那真正的已經到這個比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊\n\n00:56.355 --> 01:24.970\n所以這就剛好也呼應了在這個質詢的那一天我們有提到就是說其實很多事情它都是一個層次的問題它在一個光譜上面所以我們在那一天有討論到這一個所謂輿論戰也就是認知作戰的定義那部長那天也有提到稍微其中的一個標準但在此也要呼籲很多媒體其實聽完部長的回答之後也都講到說都認為輿論戰這個認定尤其是在地協力者的部分是一件非常困難的事情\n\n01:25.690 --> 01:50.359\n這只有特定的幾家媒體故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準就是說只要是對我方不利敵軍有利的那就可以落入到這一個範疇所以有些報紙更是坐實的更是自己在向在地協力者這邊還是要再度聲明那第二個呢我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡就是說呢我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突它是一些比較低度的\n\n01:50.879 --> 01:50.999\n沈伯洋\n\n02:12.590 --> 02:36.665\n在2022這是藍德的一個報告那他們在講這個所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候呢把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的還有cyber的這個網路的然後還有經濟的然後還有這個所謂的政治的那他並不是一個陳生的圖形他在做這些數量上的比較的時候呢說台灣目前是對這個中國灰色侵擾呢看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家\n\n02:37.544 --> 03:00.448\n因為我們簡單的一個例子比如說今天不管是軍事還是網路不太會因為說今天網路比較多軍事變得比較少或者軍事比較多網路比較少所以在政治也有可能變成說政治跟軍事變成是平行的兩條線那因為在過往部長在針對這個題目有一些發言的時候有說軍事是政治的衍生一個非常有名的句子\n\n03:01.388 --> 03:26.307\n說政治上有一個共識就比較不會有這個軍事愉悅的行為發生那但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講他反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭那所以呢反而在灰色地帶作戰的時候呢他已經不是一個兩極化的一個光譜的一個圖形而是一個像是圓圈一樣他會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個\n\n03:27.048 --> 03:27.469\n沈伯洋\n\n03:36.345 --> 03:56.041\n委員講得很好,這些話我曾經講過,軍事政策延長,這不容否認。另外,用兵施法,上兵伐謀,然後伐交,然後伐兵,這也是一個名言,也是一個定理。現在就是一個環境的變遷,很多東西混在一道。所以我記得委員那一天,第一個就是認知作戰的問題。\n\n03:57.142 --> 03:58.063\n沈副局長：沈副局長：沈副局長：\n\n04:22.464 --> 04:35.800\n謹慎的聖,我一直在強調聖戰,不是神聖的聖。謹慎,我想不管是領導者或各方的領導人,他都應該要有這種智慧,要去考量要不要發起這個。\n\n04:37.202 --> 04:59.678\n他怎麼做,方法很多。他說做好很多,也可以引導我們,有個應對的方法,也會變多。但最後的終結,就看兩邊的領導人員或上層的,或有政治考量的人物,他能不能把它分辨,這一段跟那一段,這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的,不能把它攪在一道。他要攪在一道,我們要把它分開,這就是我們的能耐。\n\n05:01.459 --> 05:26.335\n謝謝部長,那部長提到一個非常重要的關鍵就是他的方法真的非常的多元就是說不管先是政治的還是經濟的其實都包含在這個灰色衝突裡面所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到就是說其實需要更多更部會的大家一起來觀察就是他灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾那所以呢這一個以往的我們很容易就覺得說這個政治一旦穩定之後呢這個軍事是比較不容易發生的\n\n05:26.877 --> 05:46.775\n那這個烏克蘭的議員因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員那他也有來台灣他有提到說引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺他話是講得比較重那因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的一個國家那簡單來講他是認為說如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議那這個時候會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮\n\n05:49.858 --> 06:15.462\n那在我們退縮的同時呢按照毛澤東的講法呢反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候如果說我們在島內更多人想要投降的時候反而是他進攻的最佳時機所以這個就讓我想到因為昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會然後就有一個這個官方的這個記者就問了這句話說說我們的部長提到說我們現在在敵情強化訓練然後就說您是在這個以武謀獨但我相信這個部長應該不同意這句話吧\n\n06:17.040 --> 06:17.400\n沈伯洋議員\n\n06:47.000 --> 06:47.901\n感謝部長遵守言論紀律\n\n07:02.970 --> 07:18.588\n其實在這個灰色地帶衝突當中很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱但是這個例子就是讓我們知道了一件事情就是不管我們做什麼事情其實有時候我們到底在我們的定調是什麼跟我們自己怎麼想\n\n07:19.028 --> 07:37.725\n其實中國完全沒有在理會我們他會自己去定調我們的行為然後自己再去說根據我們的行為他要做出什麼樣的反制這也會導致這次在海巡事件裡面即使我們遵守了這些規章我們也遵守了國際法但他只要一句話說我們不遵守他就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態\n\n07:39.426 --> 07:54.975\n這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元那這個也是在我記得是在上個禮拜的時候呢也有跟部長提到就是還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義跟機制是能夠快一點出來就是說我們能夠快速的讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做這一個灰色地帶\n\n07:55.715 --> 08:23.599\n那這個我一直都認為因為這個我們的陳永康上將一直有提到這個ROE那這個ROE呢因為也是他的專長這邊我就不智慧了那一直以來呢我們對於ROE的一些規則裡面譬如說這邊有這個美國的這個Standing的ROE或者北約的ROE還有這一個那個Ceremon的這個Handbook的ROE那我自己有稍微翻閱了一下我個人是認為紅色的這一個是一個蠻不錯的一個可以參照的準則但是我今天有看到\n\n08:24.299 --> 08:38.950\n沈上將有帶這一個庫珀的那一個可能是北約的那我覺得那一本也不錯那在這個框架之下我想給部長看的就是說我們在所謂的這一個交戰的這個規則裡面因為我們現在按照部長上次的講法我們有這個突發狀況的這個應變的準則\n\n08:41.592 --> 09:00.842\n這個是這一個ROE的細緻化就是說如果對方做了什麼我們應該相對應要做什麼那我這邊就擷取了其中一頁就是這是國外的像譬如說在新戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分它裡面的確有提到那什麼時候我們可以發動新戰我們什麼時候新戰的哪一些手段可以做它有很清楚的這一個等於是一個範本讓我們去填補\n\n09:02.903 --> 09:21.249\n但是他在這個上面他卻沒有提到就是到底他對於新戰的定義是什麼那就像我們在禮拜二討論的到底輿論戰的定義是什麼在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者啊提到這個側翼組織啊官方媒體啊我們到底要怎麼去定性他然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰\n\n09:21.889 --> 09:51.036\n那這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早我們是在國防白皮書是比較常看到但我總覺得國防白皮書應該不適合當作是我們的一個Doctrine所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個Doctrine可以比較清楚的讓國人知道不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法是我跟委員報告說灰色地帶這個問題除了在地帶以外它連同事件有很多灰色的但是沈伯洋委員講了他中共認為他說了算他說了算的事情很多但他做了\n\n09:51.696 --> 10:09.070\n我們有沒有認同他說了算他要做不可能的因為我們有我們的想法我只是在平常沒有跟你去做一個口語方面辯論但事實上我們在準備就是說你說了算但我要讓你知道你說了以後不見得算而且\n\n10:10.165 --> 10:27.734\n不能算,我們要做就這個所以在這方面要持續努力這樣環境變化很大再加上每個人想法表達各方面一冠上一個民主自由的話很多地方我們就受到限制但國軍在這一方面離得很清楚\n\n10:28.334 --> 10:49.292\n不做討論,但一直很認清自己的本務,而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚。平常在這個界限範圍以內,一有狀況來,把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個scenario,就像想定一樣,強化演練,這是我們唯一能做的。\n\n10:50.693 --> 11:05.985\n謝謝部長,因為時間有限,我快速的再往後追加一個小問題就可以了,就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概已經也是討論了兩個禮拜,我這邊就不再多說,我想要去問一下就是在我們這一個這個美國的NDAA,就是這個國防授權法案\n\n11:07.506 --> 11:28.207\n就是在這個國防授權法案裡面因為目前來講除了這個魚叉反艦的飛彈等等之類的然後還有蠻重要的就是它對於台灣有點像是全面性的這個國防的韌性的加強其實美國現在有越來越多的方案那在這一些方案的擬定當中目前國軍應對然後跟承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼\n\n11:28.837 --> 11:45.346\n我跟委員報告,首先我們要表達感激,謝謝。因為有任何一個,不管團體或國家願意幫我們,都是一個正面的看法,我們樂見。但這個授權法案也好,或者是強制台灣的這個韌性,這法案是一個法案,但要怎麼樣來強化,怎麼樣來授權,要給我們什麼,那經過討論的。\n\n11:50.188 --> 12:17.882\n不光是我們國防部跟他來討論而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的這一點我就特別跟委員報告絕對不會我們一個面對一個國家我們就決定了一定經過大家的協調大家的支援共用而且能夠獲得共同利益來共同防衛我們國家的安全這個作業沒問題感謝那我之後可能就會在國防授權法案的一些細節然後再就教部長那謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.509,"end":3.632,"text":"那謝謝主席 那有請邱部長 謝謝請邱部長沈委員好邱部長好"},{"start":19.906,"end":36.215,"text":"因為今天的主題是灰色地帶作戰那也十分的尷尬因為從上禮拜到現在也一直都在質詢跟灰色地帶作戰相關的內容沒有想到今天又再一次不過呢我先從這張圖開始這張圖是2015年非常早期的一個灰色地帶作戰這個所謂的一個論文的圖形"},{"start":38.496,"end":55.394,"text":"那在這邊有兩點我覺得是值得重視的就是第一個他在左邊認為說一些比較典型的一些政治上或者外交上等等的施壓否定的經濟或者大家常講的認知作戰在左邊那真正的已經到這個比較高度的軍事衝突是在右邊"},{"start":56.355,"end":84.97,"text":"所以這就剛好也呼應了在這個質詢的那一天我們有提到就是說其實很多事情它都是一個層次的問題它在一個光譜上面所以我們在那一天有討論到這一個所謂輿論戰也就是認知作戰的定義那部長那天也有提到稍微其中的一個標準但在此也要呼籲很多媒體其實聽完部長的回答之後也都講到說都認為輿論戰這個認定尤其是在地協力者的部分是一件非常困難的事情"},{"start":85.69,"end":110.359,"text":"這只有特定的幾家媒體故意用誤導性的標題說只有一個標準就是說只要是對我方不利敵軍有利的那就可以落入到這一個範疇所以有些報紙更是坐實的更是自己在向在地協力者這邊還是要再度聲明那第二個呢我覺得這個圖一直有一個誤區所以想要跟部長討論跟請教的地方就是在這裡就是說呢我們以往都會認為一些政治的衝突它是一些比較低度的"},{"start":110.879,"end":110.999,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":132.59,"end":156.665,"text":"在2022這是藍德的一個報告那他們在講這個所謂灰色地帶衝突的時候呢把灰色地帶衝突分成軍事的還有cyber的這個網路的然後還有經濟的然後還有這個所謂的政治的那他並不是一個陳生的圖形他在做這些數量上的比較的時候呢說台灣目前是對這個中國灰色侵擾呢看起來是被害最嚴重的一個國家"},{"start":157.544,"end":180.448,"text":"因為我們簡單的一個例子比如說今天不管是軍事還是網路不太會因為說今天網路比較多軍事變得比較少或者軍事比較多網路比較少所以在政治也有可能變成說政治跟軍事變成是平行的兩條線那因為在過往部長在針對這個題目有一些發言的時候有說軍事是政治的衍生一個非常有名的句子"},{"start":181.388,"end":206.307,"text":"說政治上有一個共識就比較不會有這個軍事愉悅的行為發生那但是以現在灰色地帶的狀況來講他反而是有一點故意要讓我們認為政治上有共識的話軍事就比較不會爆發戰爭那所以呢反而在灰色地帶作戰的時候呢他已經不是一個兩極化的一個光譜的一個圖形而是一個像是圓圈一樣他會讓我們覺得政治跟軍事本來是一個"},{"start":207.048,"end":207.469,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":216.345,"end":236.041,"text":"委員講得很好,這些話我曾經講過,軍事政策延長,這不容否認。另外,用兵施法,上兵伐謀,然後伐交,然後伐兵,這也是一個名言,也是一個定理。現在就是一個環境的變遷,很多東西混在一道。所以我記得委員那一天,第一個就是認知作戰的問題。"},{"start":237.142,"end":238.063,"text":"沈副局長：沈副局長：沈副局長："},{"start":262.464,"end":275.8,"text":"謹慎的聖,我一直在強調聖戰,不是神聖的聖。謹慎,我想不管是領導者或各方的領導人,他都應該要有這種智慧,要去考量要不要發起這個。"},{"start":277.202,"end":299.678,"text":"他怎麼做,方法很多。他說做好很多,也可以引導我們,有個應對的方法,也會變多。但最後的終結,就看兩邊的領導人員或上層的,或有政治考量的人物,他能不能把它分辨,這一段跟那一段,這一碼跟那一碼是不一樣的,不能把它攪在一道。他要攪在一道,我們要把它分開,這就是我們的能耐。"},{"start":301.459,"end":326.335,"text":"謝謝部長,那部長提到一個非常重要的關鍵就是他的方法真的非常的多元就是說不管先是政治的還是經濟的其實都包含在這個灰色衝突裡面所以這也是我們在禮拜二的時候也有提到就是說其實需要更多更部會的大家一起來觀察就是他灰色地帶作戰的一個侵擾那所以呢這一個以往的我們很容易就覺得說這個政治一旦穩定之後呢這個軍事是比較不容易發生的"},{"start":326.877,"end":346.775,"text":"那這個烏克蘭的議員因為我去年在烏克蘭也有見到這位議員那他也有來台灣他有提到說引起和平協議的結局就是大屠殺他話是講得比較重那因為畢竟他們是在發生戰爭的一個國家那簡單來講他是認為說如果今天我們在政治上跟對方已經有和平的一個協議那這個時候會讓別人覺得我們正在退縮"},{"start":349.858,"end":375.462,"text":"那在我們退縮的同時呢按照毛澤東的講法呢反而是對方可以進攻更厲害的時候如果說我們在島內更多人想要投降的時候反而是他進攻的最佳時機所以這個就讓我想到因為昨天剛好國台辦開了記者會然後就有一個這個官方的這個記者就問了這句話說說我們的部長提到說我們現在在敵情強化訓練然後就說您是在這個以武謀獨但我相信這個部長應該不同意這句話吧"},{"start":377.04,"end":377.4,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":407,"end":407.901,"text":"感謝部長遵守言論紀律"},{"start":422.97,"end":438.588,"text":"其實在這個灰色地帶衝突當中很多時候就是不要掉入對方的陷阱但是這個例子就是讓我們知道了一件事情就是不管我們做什麼事情其實有時候我們到底在我們的定調是什麼跟我們自己怎麼想"},{"start":439.028,"end":457.725,"text":"其實中國完全沒有在理會我們他會自己去定調我們的行為然後自己再去說根據我們的行為他要做出什麼樣的反制這也會導致這次在海巡事件裡面即使我們遵守了這些規章我們也遵守了國際法但他只要一句話說我們不遵守他就會製造這些部長所謂的新常態"},{"start":459.426,"end":474.975,"text":"這個新常態的建立看起來是越來越多元那這個也是在我記得是在上個禮拜的時候呢也有跟部長提到就是還是很希望我們灰色地帶的定義跟機制是能夠快一點出來就是說我們能夠快速的讓國人知道我們什麼時候才叫做這一個灰色地帶"},{"start":475.715,"end":503.599,"text":"那這個我一直都認為因為這個我們的陳永康上將一直有提到這個ROE那這個ROE呢因為也是他的專長這邊我就不智慧了那一直以來呢我們對於ROE的一些規則裡面譬如說這邊有這個美國的這個Standing的ROE或者北約的ROE還有這一個那個Ceremon的這個Handbook的ROE那我自己有稍微翻閱了一下我個人是認為紅色的這一個是一個蠻不錯的一個可以參照的準則但是我今天有看到"},{"start":504.299,"end":518.95,"text":"沈上將有帶這一個庫珀的那一個可能是北約的那我覺得那一本也不錯那在這個框架之下我想給部長看的就是說我們在所謂的這一個交戰的這個規則裡面因為我們現在按照部長上次的講法我們有這個突發狀況的這個應變的準則"},{"start":521.592,"end":540.842,"text":"這個是這一個ROE的細緻化就是說如果對方做了什麼我們應該相對應要做什麼那我這邊就擷取了其中一頁就是這是國外的像譬如說在新戰的部分或者在輿論戰的部分它裡面的確有提到那什麼時候我們可以發動新戰我們什麼時候新戰的哪一些手段可以做它有很清楚的這一個等於是一個範本讓我們去填補"},{"start":542.903,"end":561.249,"text":"但是他在這個上面他卻沒有提到就是到底他對於新戰的定義是什麼那就像我們在禮拜二討論的到底輿論戰的定義是什麼在報告裡面我們提到在地協力者啊提到這個側翼組織啊官方媒體啊我們到底要怎麼去定性他然後才可以說這是一個灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":561.889,"end":591.036,"text":"那這個是灰色地帶作戰我覺得最早我們是在國防白皮書是比較常看到但我總覺得國防白皮書應該不適合當作是我們的一個Doctrine所以我們應該要在哪裡讓這個Doctrine可以比較清楚的讓國人知道不知道部長有沒有這方面的想法是我跟委員報告說灰色地帶這個問題除了在地帶以外它連同事件有很多灰色的但是沈伯洋委員講了他中共認為他說了算他說了算的事情很多但他做了"},{"start":591.696,"end":609.07,"text":"我們有沒有認同他說了算他要做不可能的因為我們有我們的想法我只是在平常沒有跟你去做一個口語方面辯論但事實上我們在準備就是說你說了算但我要讓你知道你說了以後不見得算而且"},{"start":610.165,"end":627.734,"text":"不能算,我們要做就這個所以在這方面要持續努力這樣環境變化很大再加上每個人想法表達各方面一冠上一個民主自由的話很多地方我們就受到限制但國軍在這一方面離得很清楚"},{"start":628.334,"end":649.292,"text":"不做討論,但一直很認清自己的本務,而且要把這些敵我的界限劃分很清楚。平常在這個界限範圍以內,一有狀況來,把它當作一個演練、一個範本、一個教材、一個scenario,就像想定一樣,強化演練,這是我們唯一能做的。"},{"start":650.693,"end":665.985,"text":"謝謝部長,因為時間有限,我快速的再往後追加一個小問題就可以了,就是我覺得灰色地帶這個部分我們大概已經也是討論了兩個禮拜,我這邊就不再多說,我想要去問一下就是在我們這一個這個美國的NDAA,就是這個國防授權法案"},{"start":667.506,"end":688.207,"text":"就是在這個國防授權法案裡面因為目前來講除了這個魚叉反艦的飛彈等等之類的然後還有蠻重要的就是它對於台灣有點像是全面性的這個國防的韌性的加強其實美國現在有越來越多的方案那在這一些方案的擬定當中目前國軍應對然後跟承接這個國防授權法案的措施有什麼"},{"start":688.837,"end":705.346,"text":"我跟委員報告,首先我們要表達感激,謝謝。因為有任何一個,不管團體或國家願意幫我們,都是一個正面的看法,我們樂見。但這個授權法案也好,或者是強制台灣的這個韌性,這法案是一個法案,但要怎麼樣來強化,怎麼樣來授權,要給我們什麼,那經過討論的。"},{"start":710.188,"end":737.882,"text":"不光是我們國防部跟他來討論而且我們國防部會跟有關的部會一道討論因為這裡面所涵蓋的不光是軍事的這一點我就特別跟委員報告絕對不會我們一個面對一個國家我們就決定了一定經過大家的協調大家的支援共用而且能夠獲得共同利益來共同防衛我們國家的安全這個作業沒問題感謝那我之後可能就會在國防授權法案的一些細節然後再就教部長那謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]}}}}