{"id":149869,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149869","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135ceb3bbf79ef2f871d1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a682c21a89343fc3a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:35:22 - 10:50:08","影片長度":"00:14:46","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":886,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:50:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:35:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時35分）謝謝主席，我想請邱國正部長以及海委會海巡署周署長。"],["主席：請邱部長及周署長。"],["邱部長國正：徐委員好。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早。現在大家都很擔心，最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近，不管是會影響到我們的禁止水域，或是像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了，兩岸要不斷去搜救，發生這樣的事情，第一個我想要問的是，最近這樣子的情況越演越烈，請問邱部長，未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化？"],["邱部長國正：會不會變化我們不知道，所以我們要嚴密監控，但我不樂見，平常會有這些監控的動作就是防止它，一旦發生了，我們要趕快處理，至於會不會發生，不見得是我們單方面的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們現在的評估，我問的是你們的評估，現在有沒有一種常態化發生的可能性？我們現在自我的評估。"],["邱部長國正：是這樣子喔！凡事我們做最壞打算，但是打算不見得是看到東西，我們設定很多想定，國軍的作業流程必然要有的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["邱部長國正：我們的評估也已經歸納出來，什麼樣的狀況下就保持一個目前它所謂的新常態，什麼樣狀況下它會增加，這個我們大概已經有一個歸納。"],["徐委員巧芯：等一下針對ADIZ的部分，我會再來詢問您。我們先問一下周署長，大家很關心的是先前有三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海，離本島只有6海里，當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了，但是這是不是變成大陸方面掌握了一個方式，來跟你宣示它的主權，甚至它的漁船上有他們自己的國旗，那就是插旗宣示主權，看你能奈我何，你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎？那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，謝謝委員的詢問。第一、我要先回答委員，從最近的數字上來看並沒有增加，陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好，這個數量並沒有增加。"],["徐委員巧芯：數量沒有增加？"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果以2、3月跟去年同年的2、3月來比的話，它是減少百分之三十幾。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以還減少？所以你們並不擔心未來禁止水域被超越這件事情會常態化？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們不是不擔心、也沒有不擔心，我們現在都在做全般的準備，平常……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們不是不擔心，但是你們是覺得不會？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們沒有說不會，因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的情形。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我說的是常態化的部分，而不是說它越界。"],["周副主任委員美伍：常態化的部分，剛剛部長已經有回答，我們會去觀察，因為這個常態化不是一天、兩天、一個禮拜、二個禮拜，可能要一個月、兩個月，我們才知道它是不是常態化。"],["徐委員巧芯：但以這個月來說，你認為還減少了，所以你並不認為未來會有常態化的狀況？"],["周副主任委員美伍：越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的，但是在0214事件之後有沒有一個新的型態出來，我們現在正在觀察中。"],["徐委員巧芯：那要問的是，像這樣的狀況，以你們執法跟取締來說，大家在問，為什麼上次沒有取締？"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們上次整個三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況，我們都有掌握。同時我們也有派船……"],["徐委員巧芯：有掌握，我們知道啊！有雷達就能夠掌握。"],["周副主任委員美伍：同時我們也有派船，我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸，因為海象已經達到十級，所以它沒有辦法出港，它已經在那個港口、港嘴的外面，但是那天的海象確實不好，所以中部分署長就下令它返航，持續用雷達監控，但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦、3,000噸的大船在那邊，我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控，所以宜蘭艦同時……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以未來發生類似狀況的時候，我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，depends，要看所有的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：不一定？"],["周副主任委員美伍：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：由你們來決定？"],["周副主任委員美伍：不同的水域、不同的狀況以及不同的海象，我再跟委員做一個背景說明。當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的是八到十級……"],["徐委員巧芯：有，我們剛剛都聽到了，這您已經講了很多天。"],["周副主任委員美伍：過去有這種現象，尤其是在我們周遭水域，陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪，它會有避風的作為，像七美海域在這種東北季風盛行的時候，超過八級以上，它就會向七美靠攏，我們的船跟雷達都會監控，如果這個海象一轉好之後，這些船……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然會監控，不監控還得了？"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果這些船在海象一轉好之後，它就離開，我們就認知它是一個尋常的避風作為。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝署長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：如果說在避風之後，海象已經轉移三到五級、七級的時候，當然我們的巡邏艇立刻會開過去驅離。"],["徐委員巧芯：瞭解，這些您剛剛都講過了，我們都有聽到。先謝謝署長，署長先請回。","我們要問一下邱部長，為什麼我們會關心常態化這個事情，過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線，我們來給大家看一下這個圖，好不好？這個部分是近年來共機逾越海峽中線的次數統計，我們沒有公布架次也是希望能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料，但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說，從2022年8月，時任美國眾議院議長裴洛西訪臺之後是不斷地往上飆升的，甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關固定的統計紀錄，所以他們超越ADIZ海峽中線這個部分變成是常態化，但是我們可以看到過去2019年的時候，有一次2019年4月，對方蓄意越過海峽中線，請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎？2019年4月的時候，蔡總統有講話的。"],["顏次長有賢：報告委員，您好，我是情次室次長，當然在2008、2009都有，2010跟2012年是沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是這一次。"],["顏次長有賢：這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線，它是有短暫逾越的情況下。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["顏次長有賢：在當下的情況不是常態，一般據我們統計那5年的情況，架次很少，那時候也到委員辦公室跟主任提過，這些都是非計畫性，因為天氣、因為避讓……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們時間很有限啦！我的問題是說當下我們做的具體的狀況是什麼？你就直接回答這個部分，好不好？就問題回答。"],["顏次長有賢：當下的情況除了我們防空雷達……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有沒有強勢驅離嘛？"],["顏次長有賢：那個是在空機去對應的……"],["徐委員巧芯：當時這個2019年4月有沒有強勢驅離？"],["顏次長有賢：報告委員，強制驅離的方式有很多種。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的就是有沒有嘛！因為蔡總統臉書發說有啊！所以我就問你嘛！"],["顏次長有賢：報告委員，一定有。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以有嘛！當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書，她內容怎麼寫的？她寫說：「我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離，因為臺海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與區域安全穩定的基石」，這是蔡英文總統臉書寫的內容，可是我們回到前面，2019年4月之後一陣子平息了一下，但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷、不斷地在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分，到底有什麼樣具體的型態我們可以去做到、去保護所謂我們的海峽中線？而不是2019年第一次來的時候，也不是第一次來，當時比較少來的時候，我們強勢驅離，寫了一個臉書告訴大家，我們會守護海峽中線，但請問到現在呢？我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做得怎麼樣？還是他們來很多次之後，我們就比較習慣了，不能習慣這件事吧？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，國軍戰備應處沒有看哪個階段的，偶發事件就有偶發事件的處理方法，但平常我們一定嚴密監控。現在這個數量，當然我也有跟同仁講了，委員要知道的話，可以到委員那邊去講得很清楚……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們都瞭解。"],["邱部長國正：基本上來講，現在架次都是保持一個概略的數量，但有偶發這種狀況，比如說不管是有國外的友臺言論或有外賓來訪，它會利用這個時候做一個聯合的所謂戰備警巡，數量會增加。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，可是部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況。"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是從2022年開始就變得非常地頻繁，我們是在詢問說這樣一個常態化之後，我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為？"],["邱部長國正：我們的因應作為，一樣，因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架，不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞；第二個，我們也看到它的常態，就是在某個範圍以內，它就是在那邊有點告警的味道，所以我們除嚴密監控以外，還有其他很多手段，譬如說要接近了，該要喊話，在空機去面對或者有臨時起來的，甚至於飛彈部隊也是個管道，但怎麼處理我們不便多做論述。SOP以外，剛才有委員講ROE是我們現在正要深入的，因為很多都是突發的狀況，但我們絕對不會硬碰硬，而且要避免戰爭引起，我們不要被人家落了一個師出有名的藉口。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，當然我是非常認同，但我另外想要請問邱部長一個事情，就是前幾天您在備詢的時候，被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義，你最後說只要言論有利中共的、不利我方的都算是在地協力者。請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述？"],["邱部長國正：我那天講得很清楚，任何一個言論只要利於其他方面、不利我方的，我們就初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者是協力者，這是個人的認定。就像哪一個團體，幫他喊的拉拉隊就一定是他的支持者，但他以後逾越法律，我也特別後面有講，這個要檢調單位他們來處理，這不是我的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，部長，當您講說對我不利、對他有利的，你就初步認定為是在地協力者，您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波。因為有些事情它不見得違法，但它對個人的社會形象是有影響的。如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對你不利、對他有利，你就說你初步認定他是在地協力者，那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢？"],["邱部長國正：風波？哪一樣事情？"],["徐委員巧芯：你們沒有做任何查證的情況，能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我並沒有指控他，而是那天有委員問到……"],["徐委員巧芯：我說初步就認為……"],["邱部長國正：什麼叫在地協力者？因為我們的報告上有這句話。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["邱部長國正：那我引用這個話也是大家平常都在用的啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：您可不可以再清楚講一次，你認為什麼樣的一個狀態，算是你所認為的在地協力者？"],["邱部長國正：基本上他有發表不利於我方言論，或利用造謠，甚至在那邊鼓吹不利我方，我就認為他是沒有善意的，至於他站哪邊、幫哪一個、幫誰，那檢調單位去確認。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是他說的在地協力者，是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者欸！"],["邱部長國正：對，那就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以如果變成說，任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利、對他有利，就是中共在地協力者……"],["邱部長國正：不是的，委員剛才不是已經講了……"],["徐委員巧芯：他就變成某種程度的共諜的概念嗎？"],["邱部長國正：委員剛才不是已經講了，對中共有利對中共嘛！我們目標就是中共，對中共有利，那對哪個團體有利、不利，我沒有去界定欸！"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，最近前一陣子他們在講，金廈海域事件，關心金廈海域事件、認為海巡署有責任的，都屬於中共在地協力者……"],["邱部長國正：我沒有這樣講喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：您認同嗎？我問的是您認同嗎？"],["邱部長國正：海巡署在處理了，它已經依照法的程序在走，我沒有任何辯論……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以……"],["邱部長國正：我們沒有任何評論欸！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以部長，以剛剛這樣的狀態來說，你會認定關注海巡署是否有疏失的人，叫做中共在地協力者嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒這樣講喔，我也沒有這樣認為喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有這樣，你沒有這樣認為……"],["邱部長國正：委員，你不要就講到法律，抓那句話……"],["徐委員巧芯：不、不、不，我不是說您，不、不、不，您聽我說……"],["邱部長國正：你不要抓那句話就無限擴大……"],["徐委員巧芯：您聽我說、您聽我說，不要緊張，好嗎！"],["邱部長國正：我沒緊張，我有什麼好緊張的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，您剛說的，如果這不算的話，但是當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了，包含在我們委員會裡面他都說了，質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在地協力者。"],["邱部長國正：那是他說啊，我沒有說啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利、對對方有利的都算，您說對的時候，就變成是大家會去解讀，好像現在所有的言論只要講到政府哪裡不對的，就可以扣上一個中共在地協力者的帽子。"],["邱部長國正：這個是一個自由民主的社會，大家各自表述，我們都不會予以置喙。但委員問到我怎麼樣對在地協力者的界定，我們報紙上引用的我就把它引用出來，但我個人看法就是只要對他，尤其對敵方有利、對我不利，我就認為他是在地協力者，但有沒有違法，我沒有去做判斷啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：未來如果你們會去制定相關的罰則，有這樣子的……"],["邱部長國正：我不會做那個罰則，因為我沒有依據……"],["徐委員巧芯：不會，……你不會做這樣子的罰則……"],["邱部長國正：我沒有依據……"],["徐委員巧芯：不會立一個法律說，只要認定是中共的協力者，我就要對你處罰，不會做這樣的一個修法方向？"],["邱部長國正：國防部有什麼權力來制定一個法律，做一個界定，然後怎麼樣來執法？沒有這個界定。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們不會這麼做嘛！好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，接下來請王定宇召委上臺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,589 --> 00:00:10,115\n謝謝主席那我想請這個邱國正部長還有我們海委會的海巡署署長周署長請邱部長、周署長\n\n2\n00:00:17,904 --> 00:00:46,081\n徐委員好委員早現在大家都很擔心最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近不管是會影響到我們禁止水域或者是說像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了兩岸要不斷地去搜救發生這樣的事情第一個我想要問的是最近這樣子的一個情況越演越烈請問邱部長未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化\n\n3\n00:00:46,954 --> 00:00:51,599\n那你們現在的評估,我問的是你們的評估現在有沒有一種常態化的發生的可能性,我們現在自我的評估\n\n4\n00:01:08,956 --> 00:01:12,157\n等一下針對那個ADIZ的部分我會再來詢問您但我們先問一下我們周署長\n\n5\n00:01:34,821 --> 00:02:00,158\n就是說呢大家很關心的是先前有這個三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海離本島只有6海里那當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了但是呢這個是不是變成是大陸方面他掌握了一個方式就是說來跟你宣示他的主權然後他甚至他漁船上是有他們自己的國旗的\n\n6\n00:02:00,598 --> 00:02:09,610\n那就是差期宣誓主權看你能耐我何你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼\n\n7\n00:02:10,793 --> 00:02:33,769\n謝謝委員的詢問我想第一我要先回答委員就是從最近的這個數字上來看並沒有增加陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好這個數量並沒有增加如果以二三月跟去年同年的二三月來比的話它是減少百分之三十幾的\n\n8\n00:02:34,189 --> 00:02:55,286\n所以還減少所以你們並不擔心未來禁制水域被超越這件事情會常態化我們沒有不擔心我們現在都在做全班的準備所以你們不是不擔心但是你們是覺得不會我們沒有說不會因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的行形沒有我說的是常態化的部分不會而你是說它\n\n9\n00:02:57,188 --> 00:03:23,518\n常態化的部分剛剛部長已經有回答我們會去觀察因為這個常態化不是一天兩天一個禮拜兩個禮拜可能要一個月兩個月我們才知道它是不是常態化但你以這個月來說你認為還減少了所以你不認為未來常態化的狀況會有越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的但是有沒有一個在\n\n10\n00:03:25,579 --> 00:03:45,602\n動兩夭式事件之後有沒有一個新的一個形態出來我們現在正在觀察中那要問的是說那像這樣的狀況你們執法跟取締來說的話那大家在問為什麼上次沒有取締我們上次的整個的三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況我們都有掌握\n\n11\n00:03:48,523 --> 00:04:14,373\n同時我們也有派船那我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸那麼因為海象已經達到10級所以他沒有辦法出港他已經在那個港口港嘴的外面但是他那天的海象確實不好所以中部分署長就下令他返航持續用雷達監控但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦\n\n12\n00:04:16,014 --> 00:04:42,534\n三千噸的大船在那邊我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控所以宜蘭艦同時．所以未來發生類似的狀況的時候我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎?沒有,depends你要看所有的狀況當然,你不同的水域、不同的狀況以及你不同的海象我再跟委員做一個背景說明當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的\n\n13\n00:04:45,136 --> 00:05:05,473\n是8到10級,那麼過去有這種現象,尤其是在我們周遭水域那陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪,它會有避風的作為像七美海域,像這種東北季風盛行的時候,超過8級上它就會向七美靠攏,那我們的船跟雷達都會監控\n\n14\n00:05:06,954 --> 00:05:12,157\n如果這些船在海上一轉好之後他就離開我們就認知他是一個尋常的避風的作為如果說他在避風之後海上已經轉到3到5級7級的時候那我們當然海警我們的巡邏艇立刻就會帶過去處理了解這些您剛剛都講過了我們都有聽到先謝謝署長因為我們署長先請回我們要問一下邱部長\n\n15\n00:05:36,653 --> 00:05:59,551\n就是說呢為什麼我們會關心常態化這個事情是過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線我們來給大家看一下這個圖好不好您播一下這個部分是近年來共及漁業海峽中線的次數統計那我們沒有公佈架次也是希望說能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料\n\n16\n00:06:00,211 --> 00:06:25,052\n但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說從2022年8月時任美國眾議院議長培洛西訪台之後是不斷的往上飆升的甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關的固定的統計記錄所以變成是這個他們超越ADIZ海峽中心這個部分變成是常態化那但是我們看到過去喔\n\n17\n00:06:26,738 --> 00:06:37,883\n可以看到過去2019年的時候有一次2019年4月對方呢蓄意越過海峽中線請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎2019年4月的時候蔡總統有講話的\n\n18\n00:06:47,486 --> 00:06:59,259\n我是情緒次長,當然在2008、2009都有,2010跟2012年是沒有這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線,它是有短暫漁業的情況下\n\n19\n00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:01,020\n你們有沒有強勢驅離嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:29,509 --> 00:07:30,710\n當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書他內容怎麼寫的\n\n21\n00:07:52,403 --> 00:08:09,089\n他寫說我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離因為台海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與區域安全穩定的基石這是蔡英文臉書總統上面總統臉書寫的內容可是2019年我們回到前面\n\n22\n00:08:14,752 --> 00:08:32,330\n2019年之後4月之後一陣子平息了一下但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷不斷的在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分到底有什麼樣具體的形態我們可以去做到去保護所謂我們的海峽中線\n\n23\n00:08:33,191 --> 00:08:50,871\n而不是2019年的時候第一次來也不是第一次啦當時比較少來的時候我們強勢區裡寫了一個臉書告訴大家我們會這個守護海峽中線但請問到現在呢我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做得怎麼樣還是他們來很多次之後我們就比較\n\n24\n00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:53,341\n習慣了,不能習慣這件事吧?\n\n25\n00:09:09,491 --> 00:09:26,009\n但我跟委員基本上來講現在架勢都是保持一個概略的數量但有偶發這種狀況譬如說不管是有國外有台言論或有外民來訪他會利用這個時候做一個聯合的一個所謂戰備警訊\n\n26\n00:09:27,090 --> 00:09:42,944\n是可是部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況但從2022年開始就變得非常的頻繁我們是在詢問說這樣子的一個常態化之後我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為\n\n27\n00:09:43,444 --> 00:10:08,425\n我們應作為就兩者一樣因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架我們不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞第二個我們也看到它的常態就是說在某個範圍以內它現在這邊有點告警的味道所以我們就嚴密監控以外還有其他很多手段比如說要接近了該要喊話再攻擊去面對或者有臨時起來的甚至於\n\n28\n00:10:09,932 --> 00:10:11,793\n當然我是非常認同但我另外想請問邱部長一個事情\n\n29\n00:10:39,600 --> 00:11:05,126\n就是說前幾天您在被詢的時候被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義你最後呢說只要言論對有利中共不利我方的都算是在地協力者請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述我們講得很清楚啊這個任何一個言論只要利於其他方面不利我方的那就我們要初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者協力者\n\n30\n00:11:05,566 --> 00:11:06,406\n但是部長當您講說你就對我不利對他有利的你就初步認為是在地協力者\n\n31\n00:11:25,413 --> 00:11:51,161\n您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波因為有些事情它不見得違法但它對社會一個人的社會形象是有影響的那如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對我不利對他有利你就說我初步認定你是在地協力者那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢你們沒有做任何的查證的情況能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎你說初步就認為\n\n32\n00:11:54,462 --> 00:11:57,383\n你可不可以再清楚講一次你認為什麼樣的一個狀態算是你所認為的在地協力者?\n\n33\n00:12:10,367 --> 00:12:24,605\n我們基本上他有這個發表這些言論不利於我方或利用這個造謠他順風在鼓吹就不利於我方我就認為他是沒有善意的他是至於在哪邊幫哪一個神幫誰那要檢調單位去確認\n\n34\n00:12:27,168 --> 00:12:48,674\n可是他說的在地協力者是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者所以如果變成是說你說任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利對他有利就是中共在地協力者他就變成某種程度的共諜的概念嗎對中共有利這中共嘛我們目標就是中共對中共有利那對哪個團體有利不利我沒有決定耶\n\n35\n00:12:49,434 --> 00:12:59,704\n那我說最近前一陣子他們在講驚嚇海域事件關心驚嚇海域事件認為海巡署有責任的都屬於中共在地協力者您認同嗎我問的是您認同嗎我沒有任何辯論我沒有任何評論\n\n36\n00:13:08,453 --> 00:13:18,862\n以剛剛這樣子的一個狀態來說你會認定說關注海巡署是否有疏失的人叫做中共在立協力者嗎我沒這樣講喔我也沒這樣認為喔你沒有這樣你沒有這樣認為我不是說您您聽我說您聽我說您聽我說不要緊張好嗎我沒緊張我為什麼要緊張呢\n\n37\n00:13:28,149 --> 00:13:52,899\n您剛說的如果這不算的話但當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了在包含我們的委員會裡面他都說了質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在立協力者所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利對對方有利的都算您說對的時候就變成是大家會去解讀好像現在所有的言論裡面只要講到政府哪裡不對的\n\n38\n00:13:56,502 --> 00:14:17,922\n這是一個民主自由的一個社會大家各自表述我們都不會具以智慧但有人問到我怎麼樣對這個在地協力者的界定我們報告上引用的我就要引用出來但我個人看法就只要對他尤其對敵方有利對我不利我就認為他是在地協力者但有沒有違法\n\n39\n00:14:18,522 --> 00:14:19,242\n所以你們不會這麼做嗎?好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n589\t10115\t謝謝主席那我想請這個邱國正部長還有我們海委會的海巡署署長周署長請邱部長、周署長\n17904\t46081\t徐委員好委員早現在大家都很擔心最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近不管是會影響到我們禁止水域或者是說像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了兩岸要不斷地去搜救發生這樣的事情第一個我想要問的是最近這樣子的一個情況越演越烈請問邱部長未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化\n46954\t51599\t那你們現在的評估,我問的是你們的評估現在有沒有一種常態化的發生的可能性,我們現在自我的評估\n68956\t72157\t等一下針對那個ADIZ的部分我會再來詢問您但我們先問一下我們周署長\n94821\t120158\t就是說呢大家很關心的是先前有這個三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海離本島只有6海里那當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了但是呢這個是不是變成是大陸方面他掌握了一個方式就是說來跟你宣示他的主權然後他甚至他漁船上是有他們自己的國旗的\n120598\t129610\t那就是差期宣誓主權看你能耐我何你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼\n130793\t153769\t謝謝委員的詢問我想第一我要先回答委員就是從最近的這個數字上來看並沒有增加陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好這個數量並沒有增加如果以二三月跟去年同年的二三月來比的話它是減少百分之三十幾的\n154189\t175286\t所以還減少所以你們並不擔心未來禁制水域被超越這件事情會常態化我們沒有不擔心我們現在都在做全班的準備所以你們不是不擔心但是你們是覺得不會我們沒有說不會因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的行形沒有我說的是常態化的部分不會而你是說它\n177188\t203518\t常態化的部分剛剛部長已經有回答我們會去觀察因為這個常態化不是一天兩天一個禮拜兩個禮拜可能要一個月兩個月我們才知道它是不是常態化但你以這個月來說你認為還減少了所以你不認為未來常態化的狀況會有越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的但是有沒有一個在\n205579\t225602\t動兩夭式事件之後有沒有一個新的一個形態出來我們現在正在觀察中那要問的是說那像這樣的狀況你們執法跟取締來說的話那大家在問為什麼上次沒有取締我們上次的整個的三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況我們都有掌握\n228523\t254373\t同時我們也有派船那我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸那麼因為海象已經達到10級所以他沒有辦法出港他已經在那個港口港嘴的外面但是他那天的海象確實不好所以中部分署長就下令他返航持續用雷達監控但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦\n256014\t282534\t三千噸的大船在那邊我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控所以宜蘭艦同時．所以未來發生類似的狀況的時候我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎?沒有,depends你要看所有的狀況當然,你不同的水域、不同的狀況以及你不同的海象我再跟委員做一個背景說明當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的\n285136\t305473\t是8到10級,那麼過去有這種現象,尤其是在我們周遭水域那陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪,它會有避風的作為像七美海域,像這種東北季風盛行的時候,超過8級上它就會向七美靠攏,那我們的船跟雷達都會監控\n306954\t312157\t如果這些船在海上一轉好之後他就離開我們就認知他是一個尋常的避風的作為如果說他在避風之後海上已經轉到3到5級7級的時候那我們當然海警我們的巡邏艇立刻就會帶過去處理了解這些您剛剛都講過了我們都有聽到先謝謝署長因為我們署長先請回我們要問一下邱部長\n336653\t359551\t就是說呢為什麼我們會關心常態化這個事情是過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線我們來給大家看一下這個圖好不好您播一下這個部分是近年來共及漁業海峽中線的次數統計那我們沒有公佈架次也是希望說能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料\n360211\t385052\t但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說從2022年8月時任美國眾議院議長培洛西訪台之後是不斷的往上飆升的甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關的固定的統計記錄所以變成是這個他們超越ADIZ海峽中心這個部分變成是常態化那但是我們看到過去喔\n386738\t397883\t可以看到過去2019年的時候有一次2019年4月對方呢蓄意越過海峽中線請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎2019年4月的時候蔡總統有講話的\n407486\t419259\t我是情緒次長,當然在2008、2009都有,2010跟2012年是沒有這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線,它是有短暫漁業的情況下\n420640\t421020\t你們有沒有強勢驅離嗎?\n449509\t450710\t當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書他內容怎麼寫的\n472403\t489089\t他寫說我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離因為台海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與區域安全穩定的基石這是蔡英文臉書總統上面總統臉書寫的內容可是2019年我們回到前面\n494752\t512330\t2019年之後4月之後一陣子平息了一下但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷不斷的在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分到底有什麼樣具體的形態我們可以去做到去保護所謂我們的海峽中線\n513191\t530871\t而不是2019年的時候第一次來也不是第一次啦當時比較少來的時候我們強勢區裡寫了一個臉書告訴大家我們會這個守護海峽中線但請問到現在呢我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做得怎麼樣還是他們來很多次之後我們就比較\n532520\t533341\t習慣了,不能習慣這件事吧?\n549491\t566009\t但我跟委員基本上來講現在架勢都是保持一個概略的數量但有偶發這種狀況譬如說不管是有國外有台言論或有外民來訪他會利用這個時候做一個聯合的一個所謂戰備警訊\n567090\t582944\t是 可是部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況但從2022年開始就變得非常的頻繁我們是在詢問說這樣子的一個常態化之後我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為\n583444\t608425\t我們應作為就兩者一樣因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架我們不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞第二個我們也看到它的常態就是說在某個範圍以內它現在這邊有點告警的味道所以我們就嚴密監控以外還有其他很多手段比如說要接近了該要喊話再攻擊去面對或者有臨時起來的甚至於\n609932\t611793\t當然我是非常認同但我另外想請問邱部長一個事情\n639600\t665126\t就是說前幾天您在被詢的時候被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義你最後呢說只要言論對有利中共不利我方的都算是在地協力者請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述我們講得很清楚啊這個任何一個言論只要利於其他方面不利我方的那就我們要初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者協力者\n665566\t666406\t但是部長當您講說你就對我不利對他有利的你就初步認為是在地協力者\n685413\t711161\t您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波因為有些事情它不見得違法但它對社會一個人的社會形象是有影響的那如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對我不利對他有利你就說我初步認定你是在地協力者那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢你們沒有做任何的查證的情況能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎你說初步就認為\n714462\t717383\t你可不可以再清楚講一次你認為什麼樣的一個狀態算是你所認為的在地協力者?\n730367\t744605\t我們基本上他有這個發表這些言論不利於我方或利用這個造謠他順風在鼓吹就不利於我方我就認為他是沒有善意的他是至於在哪邊幫哪一個神幫誰那要檢調單位去確認\n747168\t768674\t可是他說的在地協力者是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者所以如果變成是說你說任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利對他有利就是中共在地協力者他就變成某種程度的共諜的概念嗎對中共有利這中共嘛我們目標就是中共對中共有利那對哪個團體有利不利我沒有決定耶\n769434\t779704\t那我說最近前一陣子他們在講驚嚇海域事件關心驚嚇海域事件認為海巡署有責任的都屬於中共在地協力者您認同嗎我問的是您認同嗎我沒有任何辯論我沒有任何評論\n788453\t798862\t以剛剛這樣子的一個狀態來說你會認定說關注海巡署是否有疏失的人叫做中共在立協力者嗎我沒這樣講喔我也沒這樣認為喔你沒有這樣你沒有這樣認為我不是說您您聽我說您聽我說您聽我說不要緊張好嗎我沒緊張我為什麼要緊張呢\n808149\t832899\t您剛說的如果這不算的話但當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了在包含我們的委員會裡面他都說了質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在立協力者所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利對對方有利的都算您說對的時候就變成是大家會去解讀好像現在所有的言論裡面只要講到政府哪裡不對的\n836502\t857922\t這是一個民主自由的一個社會大家各自表述我們都不會具以智慧但有人問到我怎麼樣對這個在地協力者的界定我們報告上引用的我就要引用出來但我個人看法就只要對他尤其對敵方有利對我不利我就認為他是在地協力者但有沒有違法\n858522\t859242\t所以你們不會這麼做嗎?好,謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席那我想請這個邱國正部長還有我們海委會的海巡署署長周署長請邱部長、周署長\n徐委員好委員早現在大家都很擔心最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近不管是會影響到我們禁止水域或者是說像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了兩岸要不斷地去搜救發生這樣的事情第一個我想要問的是最近這樣子的一個情況越演越烈請問邱部長未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化\n那你們現在的評估,我問的是你們的評估現在有沒有一種常態化的發生的可能性,我們現在自我的評估\n等一下針對那個ADIZ的部分我會再來詢問您但我們先問一下我們周署長\n就是說呢大家很關心的是先前有這個三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海離本島只有6海里那當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了但是呢這個是不是變成是大陸方面他掌握了一個方式就是說來跟你宣示他的主權然後他甚至他漁船上是有他們自己的國旗的\n那就是差期宣誓主權看你能耐我何你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼\n謝謝委員的詢問我想第一我要先回答委員就是從最近的這個數字上來看並沒有增加陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好這個數量並沒有增加如果以二三月跟去年同年的二三月來比的話它是減少百分之三十幾的\n所以還減少所以你們並不擔心未來禁制水域被超越這件事情會常態化我們沒有不擔心我們現在都在做全班的準備所以你們不是不擔心但是你們是覺得不會我們沒有說不會因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的行形沒有我說的是常態化的部分不會而你是說它\n常態化的部分剛剛部長已經有回答我們會去觀察因為這個常態化不是一天兩天一個禮拜兩個禮拜可能要一個月兩個月我們才知道它是不是常態化但你以這個月來說你認為還減少了所以你不認為未來常態化的狀況會有越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的但是有沒有一個在\n動兩夭式事件之後有沒有一個新的一個形態出來我們現在正在觀察中那要問的是說那像這樣的狀況你們執法跟取締來說的話那大家在問為什麼上次沒有取締我們上次的整個的三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況我們都有掌握\n同時我們也有派船那我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸那麼因為海象已經達到10級所以他沒有辦法出港他已經在那個港口港嘴的外面但是他那天的海象確實不好所以中部分署長就下令他返航持續用雷達監控但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦\n三千噸的大船在那邊我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控所以宜蘭艦同時．所以未來發生類似的狀況的時候我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎?沒有,depends你要看所有的狀況當然,你不同的水域、不同的狀況以及你不同的海象我再跟委員做一個背景說明當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的\n是8到10級,那麼過去有這種現象,尤其是在我們周遭水域那陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪,它會有避風的作為像七美海域,像這種東北季風盛行的時候,超過8級上它就會向七美靠攏,那我們的船跟雷達都會監控\n如果這些船在海上一轉好之後他就離開我們就認知他是一個尋常的避風的作為如果說他在避風之後海上已經轉到3到5級7級的時候那我們當然海警我們的巡邏艇立刻就會帶過去處理了解這些您剛剛都講過了我們都有聽到先謝謝署長因為我們署長先請回我們要問一下邱部長\n就是說呢為什麼我們會關心常態化這個事情是過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線我們來給大家看一下這個圖好不好您播一下這個部分是近年來共及漁業海峽中線的次數統計那我們沒有公佈架次也是希望說能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料\n但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說從2022年8月時任美國眾議院議長培洛西訪台之後是不斷的往上飆升的甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關的固定的統計記錄所以變成是這個他們超越ADIZ海峽中心這個部分變成是常態化那但是我們看到過去喔\n可以看到過去2019年的時候有一次2019年4月對方呢蓄意越過海峽中線請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎2019年4月的時候蔡總統有講話的\n我是情緒次長,當然在2008、2009都有,2010跟2012年是沒有這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線,它是有短暫漁業的情況下\n你們有沒有強勢驅離嗎?\n當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書他內容怎麼寫的\n他寫說我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離因為台海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與區域安全穩定的基石這是蔡英文臉書總統上面總統臉書寫的內容可是2019年我們回到前面\n2019年之後4月之後一陣子平息了一下但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷不斷的在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分到底有什麼樣具體的形態我們可以去做到去保護所謂我們的海峽中線\n而不是2019年的時候第一次來也不是第一次啦當時比較少來的時候我們強勢區裡寫了一個臉書告訴大家我們會這個守護海峽中線但請問到現在呢我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做得怎麼樣還是他們來很多次之後我們就比較\n習慣了,不能習慣這件事吧?\n但我跟委員基本上來講現在架勢都是保持一個概略的數量但有偶發這種狀況譬如說不管是有國外有台言論或有外民來訪他會利用這個時候做一個聯合的一個所謂戰備警訊\n是 可是部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況但從2022年開始就變得非常的頻繁我們是在詢問說這樣子的一個常態化之後我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為\n我們應作為就兩者一樣因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架我們不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞第二個我們也看到它的常態就是說在某個範圍以內它現在這邊有點告警的味道所以我們就嚴密監控以外還有其他很多手段比如說要接近了該要喊話再攻擊去面對或者有臨時起來的甚至於\n當然我是非常認同但我另外想請問邱部長一個事情\n就是說前幾天您在被詢的時候被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義你最後呢說只要言論對有利中共不利我方的都算是在地協力者請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述我們講得很清楚啊這個任何一個言論只要利於其他方面不利我方的那就我們要初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者協力者\n但是部長當您講說你就對我不利對他有利的你就初步認為是在地協力者\n您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波因為有些事情它不見得違法但它對社會一個人的社會形象是有影響的那如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對我不利對他有利你就說我初步認定你是在地協力者那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢你們沒有做任何的查證的情況能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎你說初步就認為\n你可不可以再清楚講一次你認為什麼樣的一個狀態算是你所認為的在地協力者?\n我們基本上他有這個發表這些言論不利於我方或利用這個造謠他順風在鼓吹就不利於我方我就認為他是沒有善意的他是至於在哪邊幫哪一個神幫誰那要檢調單位去確認\n可是他說的在地協力者是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者所以如果變成是說你說任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利對他有利就是中共在地協力者他就變成某種程度的共諜的概念嗎對中共有利這中共嘛我們目標就是中共對中共有利那對哪個團體有利不利我沒有決定耶\n那我說最近前一陣子他們在講驚嚇海域事件關心驚嚇海域事件認為海巡署有責任的都屬於中共在地協力者您認同嗎我問的是您認同嗎我沒有任何辯論我沒有任何評論\n以剛剛這樣子的一個狀態來說你會認定說關注海巡署是否有疏失的人叫做中共在立協力者嗎我沒這樣講喔我也沒這樣認為喔你沒有這樣你沒有這樣認為我不是說您您聽我說您聽我說您聽我說不要緊張好嗎我沒緊張我為什麼要緊張呢\n您剛說的如果這不算的話但當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了在包含我們的委員會裡面他都說了質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在立協力者所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利對對方有利的都算您說對的時候就變成是大家會去解讀好像現在所有的言論裡面只要講到政府哪裡不對的\n這是一個民主自由的一個社會大家各自表述我們都不會具以智慧但有人問到我怎麼樣對這個在地協力者的界定我們報告上引用的我就要引用出來但我個人看法就只要對他尤其對敵方有利對我不利我就認為他是在地協力者但有沒有違法\n所以你們不會這麼做嗎?好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.589 --> 00:10.115\n謝謝主席那我想請這個邱國正部長還有我們海委會的海巡署署長周署長請邱部長、周署長\n\n00:17.904 --> 00:46.081\n徐委員好委員早現在大家都很擔心最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近不管是會影響到我們禁止水域或者是說像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了兩岸要不斷地去搜救發生這樣的事情第一個我想要問的是最近這樣子的一個情況越演越烈請問邱部長未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化\n\n00:46.954 --> 00:51.599\n那你們現在的評估,我問的是你們的評估現在有沒有一種常態化的發生的可能性,我們現在自我的評估\n\n01:08.956 --> 01:12.157\n等一下針對那個ADIZ的部分我會再來詢問您但我們先問一下我們周署長\n\n01:34.821 --> 02:00.158\n就是說呢大家很關心的是先前有這個三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海離本島只有6海里那當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了但是呢這個是不是變成是大陸方面他掌握了一個方式就是說來跟你宣示他的主權然後他甚至他漁船上是有他們自己的國旗的\n\n02:00.598 --> 02:09.610\n那就是差期宣誓主權看你能耐我何你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼\n\n02:10.793 --> 02:33.769\n謝謝委員的詢問我想第一我要先回答委員就是從最近的這個數字上來看並沒有增加陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好這個數量並沒有增加如果以二三月跟去年同年的二三月來比的話它是減少百分之三十幾的\n\n02:34.189 --> 02:55.286\n所以還減少所以你們並不擔心未來禁制水域被超越這件事情會常態化我們沒有不擔心我們現在都在做全班的準備所以你們不是不擔心但是你們是覺得不會我們沒有說不會因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的行形沒有我說的是常態化的部分不會而你是說它\n\n02:57.188 --> 03:23.518\n常態化的部分剛剛部長已經有回答我們會去觀察因為這個常態化不是一天兩天一個禮拜兩個禮拜可能要一個月兩個月我們才知道它是不是常態化但你以這個月來說你認為還減少了所以你不認為未來常態化的狀況會有越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的但是有沒有一個在\n\n03:25.579 --> 03:45.602\n動兩夭式事件之後有沒有一個新的一個形態出來我們現在正在觀察中那要問的是說那像這樣的狀況你們執法跟取締來說的話那大家在問為什麼上次沒有取締我們上次的整個的三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況我們都有掌握\n\n03:48.523 --> 04:14.373\n同時我們也有派船那我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸那麼因為海象已經達到10級所以他沒有辦法出港他已經在那個港口港嘴的外面但是他那天的海象確實不好所以中部分署長就下令他返航持續用雷達監控但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦\n\n04:16.014 --> 04:42.534\n三千噸的大船在那邊我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控所以宜蘭艦同時．所以未來發生類似的狀況的時候我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎?沒有,depends你要看所有的狀況當然,你不同的水域、不同的狀況以及你不同的海象我再跟委員做一個背景說明當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的\n\n04:45.136 --> 05:05.473\n是8到10級,那麼過去有這種現象,尤其是在我們周遭水域那陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪,它會有避風的作為像七美海域,像這種東北季風盛行的時候,超過8級上它就會向七美靠攏,那我們的船跟雷達都會監控\n\n05:06.954 --> 05:12.157\n如果這些船在海上一轉好之後他就離開我們就認知他是一個尋常的避風的作為如果說他在避風之後海上已經轉到3到5級7級的時候那我們當然海警我們的巡邏艇立刻就會帶過去處理了解這些您剛剛都講過了我們都有聽到先謝謝署長因為我們署長先請回我們要問一下邱部長\n\n05:36.653 --> 05:59.551\n就是說呢為什麼我們會關心常態化這個事情是過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線我們來給大家看一下這個圖好不好您播一下這個部分是近年來共及漁業海峽中線的次數統計那我們沒有公佈架次也是希望說能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料\n\n06:00.211 --> 06:25.052\n但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說從2022年8月時任美國眾議院議長培洛西訪台之後是不斷的往上飆升的甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關的固定的統計記錄所以變成是這個他們超越ADIZ海峽中心這個部分變成是常態化那但是我們看到過去喔\n\n06:26.738 --> 06:37.883\n可以看到過去2019年的時候有一次2019年4月對方呢蓄意越過海峽中線請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎2019年4月的時候蔡總統有講話的\n\n06:47.486 --> 06:59.259\n我是情緒次長,當然在2008、2009都有,2010跟2012年是沒有這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線,它是有短暫漁業的情況下\n\n07:00.640 --> 07:01.020\n你們有沒有強勢驅離嗎?\n\n07:29.509 --> 07:30.710\n當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書他內容怎麼寫的\n\n07:52.403 --> 08:09.089\n他寫說我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離因為台海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與區域安全穩定的基石這是蔡英文臉書總統上面總統臉書寫的內容可是2019年我們回到前面\n\n08:14.752 --> 08:32.330\n2019年之後4月之後一陣子平息了一下但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷不斷的在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分到底有什麼樣具體的形態我們可以去做到去保護所謂我們的海峽中線\n\n08:33.191 --> 08:50.871\n而不是2019年的時候第一次來也不是第一次啦當時比較少來的時候我們強勢區裡寫了一個臉書告訴大家我們會這個守護海峽中線但請問到現在呢我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做得怎麼樣還是他們來很多次之後我們就比較\n\n08:52.520 --> 08:53.341\n習慣了,不能習慣這件事吧?\n\n09:09.491 --> 09:26.009\n但我跟委員基本上來講現在架勢都是保持一個概略的數量但有偶發這種狀況譬如說不管是有國外有台言論或有外民來訪他會利用這個時候做一個聯合的一個所謂戰備警訊\n\n09:27.090 --> 09:42.944\n是可是部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況但從2022年開始就變得非常的頻繁我們是在詢問說這樣子的一個常態化之後我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為\n\n09:43.444 --> 10:08.425\n我們應作為就兩者一樣因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架我們不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞第二個我們也看到它的常態就是說在某個範圍以內它現在這邊有點告警的味道所以我們就嚴密監控以外還有其他很多手段比如說要接近了該要喊話再攻擊去面對或者有臨時起來的甚至於\n\n10:09.932 --> 10:11.793\n當然我是非常認同但我另外想請問邱部長一個事情\n\n10:39.600 --> 11:05.126\n就是說前幾天您在被詢的時候被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義你最後呢說只要言論對有利中共不利我方的都算是在地協力者請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述我們講得很清楚啊這個任何一個言論只要利於其他方面不利我方的那就我們要初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者協力者\n\n11:05.566 --> 11:06.406\n但是部長當您講說你就對我不利對他有利的你就初步認為是在地協力者\n\n11:25.413 --> 11:51.161\n您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波因為有些事情它不見得違法但它對社會一個人的社會形象是有影響的那如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對我不利對他有利你就說我初步認定你是在地協力者那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢你們沒有做任何的查證的情況能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎你說初步就認為\n\n11:54.462 --> 11:57.383\n你可不可以再清楚講一次你認為什麼樣的一個狀態算是你所認為的在地協力者?\n\n12:10.367 --> 12:24.605\n我們基本上他有這個發表這些言論不利於我方或利用這個造謠他順風在鼓吹就不利於我方我就認為他是沒有善意的他是至於在哪邊幫哪一個神幫誰那要檢調單位去確認\n\n12:27.168 --> 12:48.674\n可是他說的在地協力者是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者所以如果變成是說你說任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利對他有利就是中共在地協力者他就變成某種程度的共諜的概念嗎對中共有利這中共嘛我們目標就是中共對中共有利那對哪個團體有利不利我沒有決定耶\n\n12:49.434 --> 12:59.704\n那我說最近前一陣子他們在講驚嚇海域事件關心驚嚇海域事件認為海巡署有責任的都屬於中共在地協力者您認同嗎我問的是您認同嗎我沒有任何辯論我沒有任何評論\n\n13:08.453 --> 13:18.862\n以剛剛這樣子的一個狀態來說你會認定說關注海巡署是否有疏失的人叫做中共在立協力者嗎我沒這樣講喔我也沒這樣認為喔你沒有這樣你沒有這樣認為我不是說您您聽我說您聽我說您聽我說不要緊張好嗎我沒緊張我為什麼要緊張呢\n\n13:28.149 --> 13:52.899\n您剛說的如果這不算的話但當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了在包含我們的委員會裡面他都說了質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在立協力者所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利對對方有利的都算您說對的時候就變成是大家會去解讀好像現在所有的言論裡面只要講到政府哪裡不對的\n\n13:56.502 --> 14:17.922\n這是一個民主自由的一個社會大家各自表述我們都不會具以智慧但有人問到我怎麼樣對這個在地協力者的界定我們報告上引用的我就要引用出來但我個人看法就只要對他尤其對敵方有利對我不利我就認為他是在地協力者但有沒有違法\n\n14:18.522 --> 14:19.242\n所以你們不會這麼做嗎?好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.589,"end":10.115,"text":"謝謝主席那我想請這個邱國正部長還有我們海委會的海巡署署長周署長請邱部長、周署長"},{"start":17.904,"end":46.081,"text":"徐委員好委員早現在大家都很擔心最近有很多大陸漁船一直靠近不管是會影響到我們禁止水域或者是說像今天陸船他們自己翻覆了兩岸要不斷地去搜救發生這樣的事情第一個我想要問的是最近這樣子的一個情況越演越烈請問邱部長未來我們在禁止水域的界線是否會發生變化"},{"start":46.954,"end":51.599,"text":"那你們現在的評估,我問的是你們的評估現在有沒有一種常態化的發生的可能性,我們現在自我的評估"},{"start":68.956,"end":72.157,"text":"等一下針對那個ADIZ的部分我會再來詢問您但我們先問一下我們周署長"},{"start":94.821,"end":120.158,"text":"就是說呢大家很關心的是先前有這個三艘大型的陸船進入苗栗近海離本島只有6海里那當然您剛剛說的很多的解釋跟理由我都有聽到了但是呢這個是不是變成是大陸方面他掌握了一個方式就是說來跟你宣示他的主權然後他甚至他漁船上是有他們自己的國旗的"},{"start":120.598,"end":129.61,"text":"那就是差期宣誓主權看你能耐我何你們在整個過程當中有這樣子的感受嗎那我們具體因應的方式到底是什麼"},{"start":130.793,"end":153.769,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問我想第一我要先回答委員就是從最近的這個數字上來看並沒有增加陸船越界捕魚也好或者從事其他活動也好這個數量並沒有增加如果以二三月跟去年同年的二三月來比的話它是減少百分之三十幾的"},{"start":154.189,"end":175.286,"text":"所以還減少所以你們並不擔心未來禁制水域被超越這件事情會常態化我們沒有不擔心我們現在都在做全班的準備所以你們不是不擔心但是你們是覺得不會我們沒有說不會因為它每天都會發生這樣子越界的行形沒有我說的是常態化的部分不會而你是說它"},{"start":177.188,"end":203.518,"text":"常態化的部分剛剛部長已經有回答我們會去觀察因為這個常態化不是一天兩天一個禮拜兩個禮拜可能要一個月兩個月我們才知道它是不是常態化但你以這個月來說你認為還減少了所以你不認為未來常態化的狀況會有越界進入到禁限制水域的部分是減少的但是有沒有一個在"},{"start":205.579,"end":225.602,"text":"動兩夭式事件之後有沒有一個新的一個形態出來我們現在正在觀察中那要問的是說那像這樣的狀況你們執法跟取締來說的話那大家在問為什麼上次沒有取締我們上次的整個的三艘漁船在苗栗外海的狀況我們都有掌握"},{"start":228.523,"end":254.373,"text":"同時我們也有派船那我們的派船當天臺中海巡隊派的是100噸那麼因為海象已經達到10級所以他沒有辦法出港他已經在那個港口港嘴的外面但是他那天的海象確實不好所以中部分署長就下令他返航持續用雷達監控但同時我們那天在新竹外海有一艘宜蘭艦"},{"start":256.014,"end":282.534,"text":"三千噸的大船在那邊我們立刻通知宜蘭艦對這三艘目標做監控所以宜蘭艦同時．所以未來發生類似的狀況的時候我們會以監控為主而非以取締為主嗎?沒有,depends你要看所有的狀況當然,你不同的水域、不同的狀況以及你不同的海象我再跟委員做一個背景說明當天的海象就像我剛剛所報告的"},{"start":285.136,"end":305.473,"text":"是8到10級,那麼過去有這種現象,尤其是在我們周遭水域那陸船因為要尋求一個更好的風浪,它會有避風的作為像七美海域,像這種東北季風盛行的時候,超過8級上它就會向七美靠攏,那我們的船跟雷達都會監控"},{"start":306.954,"end":312.157,"text":"如果這些船在海上一轉好之後他就離開我們就認知他是一個尋常的避風的作為如果說他在避風之後海上已經轉到3到5級7級的時候那我們當然海警我們的巡邏艇立刻就會帶過去處理了解這些您剛剛都講過了我們都有聽到先謝謝署長因為我們署長先請回我們要問一下邱部長"},{"start":336.653,"end":359.551,"text":"就是說呢為什麼我們會關心常態化這個事情是過去我們看到了ADIZ的部分穿越海峽中線我們來給大家看一下這個圖好不好您播一下這個部分是近年來共及漁業海峽中線的次數統計那我們沒有公佈架次也是希望說能夠保護我們國家相關的機敏性資料"},{"start":360.211,"end":385.052,"text":"但是大家可以看到這個整體的數量來說從2022年8月時任美國眾議院議長培洛西訪台之後是不斷的往上飆升的甚至2020年之前也沒有做相關的固定的統計記錄所以變成是這個他們超越ADIZ海峽中心這個部分變成是常態化那但是我們看到過去喔"},{"start":386.738,"end":397.883,"text":"可以看到過去2019年的時候有一次2019年4月對方呢蓄意越過海峽中線請問一下部長您記得當時我方做的是什麼樣的處置嗎2019年4月的時候蔡總統有講話的"},{"start":407.486,"end":419.259,"text":"我是情緒次長,當然在2008、2009都有,2010跟2012年是沒有這一次的部分是在北部的海峽中線,它是有短暫漁業的情況下"},{"start":420.64,"end":421.02,"text":"你們有沒有強勢驅離嗎?"},{"start":449.509,"end":450.71,"text":"當時蔡英文總統還發了一篇臉書他內容怎麼寫的"},{"start":472.403,"end":489.089,"text":"他寫說我已下令軍方對蓄意越過中線的挑釁必須第一時間強勢驅離因為台海中線的穩定存在是確保兩岸和平現狀與區域安全穩定的基石這是蔡英文臉書總統上面總統臉書寫的內容可是2019年我們回到前面"},{"start":494.752,"end":512.33,"text":"2019年之後4月之後一陣子平息了一下但後續看到的是我們幾乎每年都不斷不斷的在增加這些ADIZ越過的部分到底有什麼樣具體的形態我們可以去做到去保護所謂我們的海峽中線"},{"start":513.191,"end":530.871,"text":"而不是2019年的時候第一次來也不是第一次啦當時比較少來的時候我們強勢區裡寫了一個臉書告訴大家我們會這個守護海峽中線但請問到現在呢我們對於海峽中線的守護到底做得怎麼樣還是他們來很多次之後我們就比較"},{"start":532.52,"end":533.341,"text":"習慣了,不能習慣這件事吧?"},{"start":549.491,"end":566.009,"text":"但我跟委員基本上來講現在架勢都是保持一個概略的數量但有偶發這種狀況譬如說不管是有國外有台言論或有外民來訪他會利用這個時候做一個聯合的一個所謂戰備警訊"},{"start":567.09,"end":582.944,"text":"是 可是部長很明確的可以看到在2020年之前幾乎很少這樣子的情況但從2022年開始就變得非常的頻繁我們是在詢問說這樣子的一個常態化之後我們的因應方式到底有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":583.444,"end":608.425,"text":"我們應作為就兩者一樣因為我們沒有辦法一架對一架我們不管是戰力各方面不能去這樣搞第二個我們也看到它的常態就是說在某個範圍以內它現在這邊有點告警的味道所以我們就嚴密監控以外還有其他很多手段比如說要接近了該要喊話再攻擊去面對或者有臨時起來的甚至於"},{"start":609.932,"end":611.793,"text":"當然我是非常認同但我另外想請問邱部長一個事情"},{"start":639.6,"end":665.126,"text":"就是說前幾天您在被詢的時候被問到要求清楚界定中共在地協力者的定義你最後呢說只要言論對有利中共不利我方的都算是在地協力者請問要不要再針對這個部分做比較詳細的論述我們講得很清楚啊這個任何一個言論只要利於其他方面不利我方的那就我們要初步認定它是某一個地方的支持者或者協力者"},{"start":665.566,"end":666.406,"text":"但是部長當您講說你就對我不利對他有利的你就初步認為是在地協力者"},{"start":685.413,"end":711.161,"text":"您作為國防部長講出這樣的話之後會引起很大的風波因為有些事情它不見得違法但它對社會一個人的社會形象是有影響的那如果你只是因為有一個人的說法你覺得對我不利對他有利你就說我初步認定你是在地協力者那請問對那個人的名譽來說呢你們沒有做任何的查證的情況能夠指控對方就是在地協力者嗎你說初步就認為"},{"start":714.462,"end":717.383,"text":"你可不可以再清楚講一次你認為什麼樣的一個狀態算是你所認為的在地協力者?"},{"start":730.367,"end":744.605,"text":"我們基本上他有這個發表這些言論不利於我方或利用這個造謠他順風在鼓吹就不利於我方我就認為他是沒有善意的他是至於在哪邊幫哪一個神幫誰那要檢調單位去確認"},{"start":747.168,"end":768.674,"text":"可是他說的在地協力者是所謂清楚界定中共在地協力者所以如果變成是說你說任何的言論你個人認為對我方不利對他有利就是中共在地協力者他就變成某種程度的共諜的概念嗎對中共有利這中共嘛我們目標就是中共對中共有利那對哪個團體有利不利我沒有決定耶"},{"start":769.434,"end":779.704,"text":"那我說最近前一陣子他們在講驚嚇海域事件關心驚嚇海域事件認為海巡署有責任的都屬於中共在地協力者您認同嗎我問的是您認同嗎我沒有任何辯論我沒有任何評論"},{"start":788.453,"end":798.862,"text":"以剛剛這樣子的一個狀態來說你會認定說關注海巡署是否有疏失的人叫做中共在立協力者嗎我沒這樣講喔我也沒這樣認為喔你沒有這樣你沒有這樣認為我不是說您您聽我說您聽我說您聽我說不要緊張好嗎我沒緊張我為什麼要緊張呢"},{"start":808.149,"end":832.899,"text":"您剛說的如果這不算的話但當時詢問您的立法委員他就說了在包含我們的委員會裡面他都說了質疑海巡署的這些都是所謂的中共在立協力者所以當他詢問您說是不是只要對我不利對對方有利的都算您說對的時候就變成是大家會去解讀好像現在所有的言論裡面只要講到政府哪裡不對的"},{"start":836.502,"end":857.922,"text":"這是一個民主自由的一個社會大家各自表述我們都不會具以智慧但有人問到我怎麼樣對這個在地協力者的界定我們報告上引用的我就要引用出來但我個人看法就只要對他尤其對敵方有利對我不利我就認為他是在地協力者但有沒有違法"},{"start":858.522,"end":859.242,"text":"所以你們不會這麼做嗎?好,謝謝"}]}}}}