{"id":149873,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313551d069a12495df6708cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a6341e813343861a055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:35:08 - 10:51:47","影片長度":"00:16:39","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":999,"end_time":"2024-03-14T10:51:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:35:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時35分）主席，各位大家早安喔！是不是再請我們薛部長？"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一，二法合一中就你們現在公告的草案裡面，有幾個地方是我們不能接受的，第一個就是我們資再法草案第三條，將本來廢清法第二條第一項廢棄物的定義改成廢棄資源，廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾，但我們比較擔心的是，你現在沒有廢棄物，純粹都只是廢棄資源這樣的概念，它也沒有辦法真正涵蓋到已經完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物。然後我們有說在廢棄物循環再利用的狀況裡面，其實要達到這個目的、要零廢棄，最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已，其實還要它的治理原則、法律架構，還有執法上，即法制面、執行面通通都要可行，這才是最重要的。","再來，我們來講再利用，部長，我們通常說的最終處置，一般都是燒掉然後掩埋，相對於燒掉和掩埋，我們進入了循環使用的當中，所以這個叫做再利用，一般粗俗的概念是這樣子。再利用裡面，你們現在包含了二個，一個叫燃料化，一個是填地，但是這二個東西，就再生能源的定義，燃料化裡面最典型的、今天很多人問的就是SRF，我們希望循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能，我們講的再生能源定義裡面，這個絕對不允許被當成是再生能源，即便是歐盟裡面，歐盟的文件講到，不管是天然的再生能源或者是生質能，當然一般講的都是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分，生物可分解的物質像紙類、廚餘、動植物殘骸、有機物，所以在歐盟的標準裡面，SRF如果是含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電，絕對不能認為是再生能源，我們希望這一點你們也要踩住。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員淑芬：但是你們現在修法的重點，將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中，而且你們明文在草案第四十五條，將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中，就是SRF；你們在立法說明欄提到，為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄，所以將非有害適燃性的廢棄物，經分選及純化後，轉製為固體再生燃料，為了避免外界質疑假SRF之名行焚化之實，造成環境污染。這個是你們說明裡面提到的，我覺得這一段也滿好笑的，因為這好像是此地無銀三百兩，環境部把不符合淨零碳排趨勢也不符合資源循環政策，且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方。其實SRF最終也還是要把它燒掉，這跟你要進入真正的循環利用，把廢棄資源當成資源這樣來看待是剛好相反的，所以我才說此地無銀三百兩，很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名行焚化之實，你們為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為，可是剛好人家就是這麼以為。","很多年前我也質詢過SRF，當我3年以前還在這個委員會的時候，我也談過SRF的事情，那時候部長你還沒有來，到現在我看起來也還是差不多，雖然部長可能不太認同，你認為你已經來了，也做了一點改革了，但我們今天要再談的是，這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界、幫事業單位擦屁股，環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的，可是對事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念，我們沒有對臺灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity、涵容量做出評估，無限制的一直生產、生產、生產，以爐渣為例，以你的焚化爐底渣為例，以其他的事業生產為例，你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物要怎麼辦的問題，那大家就以SRF來解決廢棄物的問題，不過不是解決我上面講的那一些問題，不是爐渣、底渣，當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題、廢塑膠的問題等等。那這種SRF固體燃料產品現在的問題就是品質太差、沒有市場，我們以前就提過，水分太高、含氯量太高、SRF的品質不穩定，會造成使用者拿去當燃料燒了以後設備會壞掉，固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近的日本、韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆。部長，我舉一個例子，你在強迫人家的這個技術裡面，你們這個SRF所收受廢棄物的種類非常多，卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應之處理技術，比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠、含氯有機物質的光學分選機不在你們的標準配備裡面，是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：那沒有在你的標準配備裡面，你沒有辦法篩出這個含氯的部分，你知道含氯的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：包括戴奧辛等等的有毒物質。"],["林委員淑芬：沒錯，就是戴奧辛，你都知道。所以你們知道的方法，你們的含氯標準是小於3就可以了，韓國是要小於2，歐盟是要小於0.2，所以比人家寬鬆；那更不要講含汞標準，含汞標準我們是小於5，歐盟是小於0.2，韓國要小於1.0，日本是0，你把含氯的燒出來會有戴奧辛，含汞的燒出來會怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，事實上，林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在，但是我們也已經有發現這個問題，所以從去年我上任之後就開始……"],["林委員淑芬：來，你告訴我你是怎麼講，你剛剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們要把……"],["林委員淑芬：你的作法是說，如果燒SRF，我對排放要更加嚴，可是我告訴你，你的問題不在那裡，你的問題是沒有人要燒SRF。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你訂出來的品質標準這麼差，那人家也不要燒，你說我對於有燒SRF的人監測得嚴格一點，這是解方嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不是啦！那個是末端了，那個會事倍功半啦！我們希望能夠事半功倍。"],["林委員淑芬：對，那你在前端要怎麼做？你對前端要怎麼改？"],["薛部長富盛：就是從源頭……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你，你有沒有對應的應採行之處理技術的規範？你連光學分選機都沒有。"],["薛部長富盛：我們未來因為SRF要從產品做分類了，那產品要做分類，這些製造商就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裡面……"],["林委員淑芬：你沒有規範啊！"],["薛部長富盛：有，現在要進行嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：你的規範沒有啊！"],["薛部長富盛：以前的沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：你說你要去現勘，在試車的時候要看，那個都是末端了。那我要問你，現行的SRF品質規範有1,500噸採樣1次，但是也沒有規定採樣要留存紀錄，也不需要上傳給你們看，你們主管機關不用追蹤、也不用控管，然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次，所以違反了你們的事業廢棄物清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容，有罰則嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，現在在推動的、在修改的就會朝著委員你要的方向，不過……"],["林委員淑芬：所以目前都還沒有嘛！那我再問你，如果真的要將這種固體廢棄物燃料的SRF當成真正的產品，你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我想CNS國家標準可能還是必須經過商檢局他們那邊，但是我們環境部是事業主管單位……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準，你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞，還有很多的缺失。然後現在照你們的狀況，我們SRF淨熱值的要求是等同歐盟倒數第二類SRF的品質，遠低於韓國跟日本，在氯含量、在汞含量也是很低的標準。"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，我們已經要修改了。"],["林委員淑芬：那你們說要改，我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子。"],["薛部長富盛：假如委員希望知道，我們可以把一些草案的規定……"],["林委員淑芬：以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準，不就證實了其實你們是做成燃料，以燃料化之名行焚化之實？我要舉一個例子，其實我們去看歐洲的SRF，人家主要都在處理什麼？部長，你是內行人，歐洲的SRF這種產品主要處理什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：他們也是處理事業廢棄物等等這一類的……"],["林委員淑芬：人家主要都是在處理家戶垃圾、固體垃圾啦！這是主要的，因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐，所以他們其實是以處理生活垃圾為大宗，是主要喔！我們因為焚化爐很多所以生活垃圾本來就理所當然是焚化掉，人家是還要再精緻的分選，然後再加工，將品質處理好再去焚化，而我們是直接燒。臺灣的 SRF主要是處理什麼？就是事業廢棄物。我舉一個媒體有報導過的，像瑞典梅拉倫發電廠產出的 SRF，有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備，要做有機物篩選，把人的眼睛看不出來的、人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來，接著進行磁選，然後把金屬、非金屬再分出來，要用光學儀器偵測塑膠材質，分選不合格的、含氯多的、燒出來會有戴奧辛的，不能放進去，即便他們是花錢去買廢棄物，那些廢棄物都是買來的，但是如果不符合標準就不燒。你看你們的許可裡面，連這些公告為一定要回收的塑膠，這二、三十年、幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠，你們都把它當成SRF的燃料，我們就有點訝異，PET、PE、PLA 等等，這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面reuse然後recycle，就是要變成真正的再利用嗎？結果你鼓勵把它做成燃料去燒掉，那就根本沒有符合再利用裡面最核心的，不是燒掉，燒掉是不得已的，燃料化也是不得已的，你應該是要變成循環使用、變成原料、變成材料，結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PET、PE、PP、PS、其他塑膠PLA全部公告可作為SRF，所以你們的這些資源循環零廢棄把SRF當成是綠能、廢轉能，沒有將真正可以循環使用的這個東西，如我講的PET、PE、PP還可以再循環使用，你還鼓勵他把它燒掉。"],["薛部長富盛：那個塑膠事實上是可以再回收，那個本來就可以再回收。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！可是你們放在可以做成 SRF，不就是鼓勵燒掉嗎？"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：是不是……"],["林委員淑芬：那我現在再講……"],["主席：林委員，是不是會後請環境部……"],["林委員淑芬：主席，因為我們大家討論這麼重要的二法合一的政策，可是我們開會早早就結束，然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢，我覺得是蠻可惜的。更何況他們現在是不是像人家所質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實、以填地之名行掩埋之實？以前對焚化爐的把關有多麼嚴格的機制，要掩埋有多嚴格的機制，現在卻為了服務產業界，解決他們的廢棄物問題，我們假裝一個SRF，假裝再利用的填地，結果把關的機制相對寬鬆掉，所以這是「倒退嚕」啊！我們希望對整個環境污染的把關、環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中，結果這個二法合一的改革沒有好的品質、沒有好的管理，是「倒退嚕」！我們至少去真正的掩埋、真正的焚化還是有高度把關啊！"],["薛部長富盛：林委員，這一塊我們會來檢討，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：我們需要的不是檢討……"],["主席：部長，是不是會後跟林委員溝通說明？"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以，沒有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：他應該跟全國人民溝通說明。所以我們必須再講，燃料化、填地也是最後的手段，他不能假填地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之實，真的要嚴格地管制才是最正確的。","我最後再講一點，其實在你們這個二法合一的版本裡面，第九條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責，第九條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環，促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜，我們都知道，循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量，所有可用的要儘量的循環再利用，然後儘量源頭減量，讓有限的資源不要浪費，所以源頭減量也是二法合一循環利用的核心價值，可是整部法就只有這一句話有提到源頭減量，其他通通都沒有源頭減量的方案和政策，也沒有跨部會的合作推動，源頭減量其實應該要更具體，你也要設計一根蘿蔔跟棒子。你們草案第二十五條規範了製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則，其實你也應該可以有相關的配套獎勵措施，如賦稅減免來鼓勵這些業者，除了綠色設計以外，也要源頭減量啊！蘿蔔、棒子通通都要放進去。","所以我們在這裡語重心長，我們看到外國有SRF，我們也來做SRF，可是對SRF你沒有管好，那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實，但是管制得更寬鬆。如果你的再利用填地行為、再利用產品、再利用規範管制得不好，那麼就是以填地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實，但是這樣子是不行的啦！好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。我們先休息10分鐘。","休息（10時51分）","繼續開會（11時2分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 778.378, \"end\": 778.558, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 778.558, \"end\": 778.678, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 778.678, \"end\": 778.778, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"循\", \"start\": 778.778, \"end\": 779.178, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 779.178, \"end\": 779.318, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 779.318, \"end\": 779.478, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 779.478, \"end\": 779.598, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 779.598, \"end\": 779.618, \"score\": 0.483}, {\"word\": \"講\"}]}, {\"start\": 781.092, \"end\": 806.333, \"text\": \"PETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎是不是那我現在在講齁林委員是請會後請我們主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 781.092, \"end\": 781.733, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"E\", 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\"而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 808.675, \"end\": 808.835, \"score\": 0.653}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 808.835, \"end\": 808.995, \"score\": 0.519}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 808.995, \"end\": 809.115, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 809.115, \"end\": 809.135, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 809.135, \"end\": 809.155, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 809.155, \"end\": 809.255, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 809.255, \"end\": 809.295, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 809.295, \"end\": 809.315, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 809.315, \"end\": 809.335, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 809.335, \"end\": 809.496, \"score\": 0.559}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 809.496, \"end\": 809.596, 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{\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 996.073, \"end\": 996.314, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 996.314, \"end\": 996.515, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 996.515, \"end\": 996.616, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 996.616, \"end\": 996.636, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,290 --> 00:00:28,017\n林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家早安是不是再請我們薛部長來薛部長好林委員好部長您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一當然二法合一你們現在宣告的草案裡面有幾個地方我們是不能接受的第一個就是我們資財法這個\n\n2\n00:00:29,697 --> 00:00:51,876\n而草案的第3條將廢清法本來第二條第一項的廢棄物的定義改成這個廢棄資源那廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾但我們比較擔心的是你現在沒有廢棄物但純粹都只有廢棄資源這樣的概念他也沒有辦法真正的涵蓋到已經失去完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物然後\n\n3\n00:00:54,218 --> 00:00:57,061\n在這個裡面我們還講說你要把廢棄物循環在利用的狀況裡面其實要達到這個目的要零廢棄最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已其實還要它治理原則法律架構還有這個執法上法制面執行面通通都要可行\n\n4\n00:01:13,559 --> 00:01:21,864\n而且這才是最重要的再來就是說再利用我們講再利用因為我們通常講說最終處置部長我們講的最終處置一般都是講燒掉然後掩埋相對於燒掉和掩埋我們進入循環使用當中所以\n\n5\n00:01:49,003 --> 00:02:13,130\n我們對於你燃料化裡面最典型大家今天很多人問的就是SRF那我們希望這個循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能我們在講再生能源的定義裡面這個絕對不允許當成是再生能源即便是歐盟裡面歐盟的文件講到我們不管是天然的再生能源或者是這個生質能\n\n6\n00:02:15,231 --> 00:02:36,307\n當然一般都講的是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分生物可分解的物質像紙類、雛魚、動植物、長海、有機物所以在歐盟的標準裡面SRF如果你含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電絕對不能認為是再生能源\n\n7\n00:02:37,228 --> 00:02:52,178\n我們是希望這一點也要採注但是你們現在修法的重點將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中而且你們明文在第1245條的草案裡面草案45條將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中就是SRF那你們在立法說明欄裡面你們講說我們為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄\n\n8\n00:03:07,208 --> 00:03:11,729\n所以將非有害釋然性的廢棄物經分選及存化後轉制為固體再生燃料為了避免外界質疑假SRF之名形分化之時造成環境污染這個是你們說明的我覺得這一段也蠻好笑的因為這個好像是此地無銀三百兩\n\n9\n00:03:29,575 --> 00:03:41,660\n環境部把不符合這個淨零碳排區市也不符合資源循環政策且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方明顯的沒有把\n\n10\n00:03:48,742 --> 00:04:03,663\n你也是要收掉那跟你要進入真正的循環利用的這個把廢棄資源當成資源的這樣的看待的這個東西是剛好相反的所以\n\n11\n00:04:05,182 --> 00:04:29,098\n我才說此地無飲三百兩很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名形焚化之實你們說為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為可是剛好人家就是這麼以為那很多年前我也質詢過SR當我三年以前還在這個委員會的時候我也談過SRF的事情那時候部長你還沒有來SRF環境部\n\n12\n00:04:31,711 --> 00:04:38,213\n當時：到現在我看起來也差不多老不早雖然你覺得不太認同你認為你已經來了做一點改革了但我們今天要再談把環境部這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界幫事業單位擦屁股\n\n13\n00:04:48,157 --> 00:05:14,555\n環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的可是呢事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念我們沒有對台灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity那個叫什麼含容量做出這個評估而無限制的一直生產生產生產以爐渣為例以你的文化爐底渣為例以其他的事業這個生產為例你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物怎麼辦那大家\n\n14\n00:05:18,038 --> 00:05:20,880\n就把SRF當成解決廢棄物的這個問題當然不是解決我上面講的那一些問題那不是爐渣底渣當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題廢塑膠的問題然後等等那這種SRF的固體燃料產品\n\n15\n00:05:34,769 --> 00:05:48,922\n現在的問題就是品質太差沒有市場我們以前就提過水分太高含力量太高SRF的品質不穩定會造成人家使用者拿去當燃料燒的人設備會壞掉固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近日本韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆的部長我要記一下\n\n16\n00:06:00,012 --> 00:06:24,791\n人家你在強迫的這個技術裡面你們這個SRF啊收受的廢棄物種類非常多卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應的處理技術比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠含氯的有機物質的這個光學分選機不在你們標準配備裡面是不是\n\n17\n00:06:25,822 --> 00:06:38,780\n是不是?那你沒有辦法在你標準配備裡面你沒有辦法篩出這個含氯的你知道含氯的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎?包括鈦鈧芯沒錯對\n\n18\n00:06:43,274 --> 00:07:02,549\n啊你都知道所以你們知道的方法你們是把韓綠標準齁把他標準小於3就可以的韓國是要小於2歐盟是要小於0.2所以比人家寬鬆那更不要講韓拱標準韓拱標準我們是小於5歐盟是小於0.2韓國要小於1.0日本是0你把韓拱的韓綠的韓綠的燒出來會有帶凹心韓拱燒出來會怎麼樣\n\n19\n00:07:12,926 --> 00:07:32,593\n林委員報告事實上林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在但是我們就是已經也發現這個問題所以從去年我上任之後就開始已經來你告訴我你怎麼講你剛剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛對不對\n\n20\n00:07:33,933 --> 00:07:35,413\n對阿那你前端怎麼做對你前端怎麼改\n\n21\n00:08:01,559 --> 00:08:17,226\n我現在問你你有沒有對應的英彩型的處理技術的規範你連光學分選機你都沒有再來我們未來因為要從SRF從產品做分類了那產品做分類\n\n22\n00:08:18,666 --> 00:08:28,831\n制造商他就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裡邊沒有規範啊有有現在要進行嘛你的規範沒有啊你說你要去現看試車的時候要看那個都是末端了那我要問你現行的裡面SRF的品質規範有1500噸採樣一次但是呢\n\n23\n00:08:39,696 --> 00:08:53,587\n也沒有規定採樣要留存記錄也不需要上傳給你們看你們主管機關也不用追蹤也不用控管然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次所以違反了你們的事業費企務清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容有罰則嗎\n\n24\n00:08:57,650 --> 00:09:18,176\n給委員報告有罰則嗎就是說現在在推動的在修改的就會朝著我們要的方向所以目前都還沒有嘛那我再問你你們有訂出如果真的要將SRF這種固體廢棄物燃料的這個SRF要當成真正的產品你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎我想我們CNS當然\n\n25\n00:09:22,441 --> 00:09:52,021\n那個國家的標準可能還是必須經過這個商檢期他們那邊所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞還有很多的缺失然後現在照你們狀況我們的熱淨值的要求是等同歐盟的倒數第二類的SRF的品質遠低於韓國跟日本在綠含量在拱含量也是很低的標準那你們說要改我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子\n\n26\n00:09:54,823 --> 00:10:14,037\n所以以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準不就證實了說其實你們是以燃料化之名做成燃料以燃料化之名行焚化之實我要舉一個例子喔其實我們去看歐洲SRF人家都主要都在處理什麼主要在處理什麼不中你內行人歐洲為什麼SRF這種產品主要處理什麼不中\n\n27\n00:10:25,166 --> 00:10:42,583\n主要人家都是處理家戶垃圾固體垃圾啦主要因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐所以他們其實處理生活垃圾為大宗\n\n28\n00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:59,978\n主要喔!所以我們主要因為我們焚化的很多所以生活Less本來就是理所當然焚化掉人家是還要再精緻的分選然後再加工品質最好再去焚化我們是直接燒而台灣的SRF主要是處理什麼事業廢棄物\n\n29\n00:11:04,183 --> 00:11:29,264\n那因為瑞典我舉一個那個人家媒體報導過的梅拉倫發電廠產出的SRF他有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備要做有機物篩選把人用人的眼睛看不出來的人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來然後磁選然後把金屬非金屬再分出來然後要用這個光學儀器偵測塑膠材質\n\n30\n00:11:51,929 --> 00:12:18,145\n所謂你們現在這麼多年二三十年幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠你們都把它當成SRF的燃料我們就有點訝異說你們PETPEPLA等等這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面的reuse然後recycle就是要變成真正的再利用嗎結果你把它鼓勵成你把它燒掉做成燃料去燒掉\n\n31\n00:12:19,185 --> 00:12:42,832\n那他根本沒有符合你的再利用裡面最核心的不是燒掉燒掉是不得燃料化也是不得已的你應該是要變成循環使用變成原料變成材料結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PETPEPPPS其他塑膠BLA全部當成這個公告可作為這個SRF\n\n32\n00:12:44,432 --> 00:12:59,618\n所以你們的這一些支援循環零廢氣把SRF還當成是綠能廢轉能沒有將真正的這個東西可以循環使用的我講\n\n33\n00:13:01,092 --> 00:13:26,333\nPETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎是不是那我現在在講齁林委員是請會後請我們主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的\n\n34\n00:13:28,675 --> 00:13:35,359\n而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉\n\n35\n00:13:58,012 --> 00:14:14,178\n所以這倒退路我們希望整個環境的這個污染的把關環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中結果這個改革221的改革如果沒有好的品質沒有好的管理是倒退路的\n\n36\n00:14:15,058 --> 00:14:23,605\n我們至少去真正研埋真正分化還是高度把關的啊那個林委員這一塊我們會來檢討啦好不好我們需要的是不是檢討是不是跟那個林委員溝通說明好不好他應該跟全國人民溝通說明啊所以我們必須要講燃料化田地也是最後的手段他不能\n\n37\n00:14:36,415 --> 00:14:54,607\n假田地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之時真的要嚴格的管制才是最正確的那我再最後講一點其實你們的這個版本二法合一的版本裡面第9條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責第9條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜\n\n38\n00:15:06,255 --> 00:15:12,003\n我們都知道這個循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量所有可用的要盡量的循環再利用然後盡量源頭減量讓有限的資源不要浪費所以源頭減量也是二法合一的\n\n39\n00:15:22,779 --> 00:15:22,979\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n\n40\n00:15:38,669 --> 00:16:01,449\n你也要有設計一個蘿蔔跟棒子你們草案第25條的規範的製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則其實你也應該可以有配套相關的獎勵措施如這個複稅減免來鼓勵這個業者這個綠色設計以外要源頭減量啊蘿蔔棒子通通都要放進去所以這個我們在這裡語重心長喔\n\n41\n00:16:03,471 --> 00:16:31,609\n我們看到外國有SRF我們也來做SRF可是SRF你沒有管好那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實但是管制的更寬鬆如果你的在利用田地行為在利用產品在利用規範管制的不好那麼就是以這個田地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實但是呢這樣子是不行的\n\n42\n00:16:34,868 --> 00:16:36,636\n謝謝林淑芬委員我們先休息10分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n290\t28017\t林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家早安是不是再請我們薛部長來薛部長好林委員好部長您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一當然二法合一你們現在宣告的草案裡面有幾個地方我們是不能接受的第一個就是我們資財法這個\n29697\t51876\t而草案的第3條將廢清法本來第二條第一項的廢棄物的定義改成這個廢棄資源那廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾但我們比較擔心的是你現在沒有廢棄物但純粹都只有廢棄資源這樣的概念他也沒有辦法真正的涵蓋到已經失去完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物然後\n54218\t57061\t在這個裡面我們還講說你要把廢棄物循環在利用的狀況裡面其實要達到這個目的要零廢棄最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已其實還要它治理原則法律架構還有這個執法上法制面執行面通通都要可行\n73559\t81864\t而且這才是最重要的再來就是說再利用我們講再利用因為我們通常講說最終處置部長我們講的最終處置一般都是講燒掉然後掩埋相對於燒掉和掩埋我們進入循環使用當中所以\n92551\t108763\t﹗\n109003\t133130\t我們對於你燃料化裡面最典型大家今天很多人問的就是SRF那我們希望這個循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能我們在講再生能源的定義裡面這個絕對不允許當成是再生能源即便是歐盟裡面歐盟的文件講到我們不管是天然的再生能源或者是這個生質能\n135231\t156307\t當然一般都講的是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分生物可分解的物質像紙類、雛魚、動植物、長海、有機物所以在歐盟的標準裡面SRF如果你含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電絕對不能認為是再生能源\n157228\t172178\t我們是希望這一點也要採注但是你們現在修法的重點將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中而且你們明文在第1245條的草案裡面草案45條將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中就是SRF那你們在立法說明欄裡面你們講說我們為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄\n187208\t191729\t所以將非有害釋然性的廢棄物經分選及存化後轉制為固體再生燃料為了避免外界質疑假SRF之名形分化之時造成環境污染這個是你們說明的我覺得這一段也蠻好笑的因為這個好像是此地無銀三百兩\n209575\t221660\t環境部把不符合這個淨零碳排區市也不符合資源循環政策且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方明顯的沒有把\n228742\t243663\t你也是要收掉那跟你要進入真正的循環利用的這個把廢棄資源當成資源的這樣的看待的這個東西是剛好相反的所以\n245182\t269098\t我才說此地無飲三百兩很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名形焚化之實你們說為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為可是剛好人家就是這麼以為那很多年前我也質詢過SR當我三年以前還在這個委員會的時候我也談過SRF的事情那時候部長你還沒有來SRF環境部\n271711\t278213\t當時：到現在我看起來也差不多 老不早雖然你覺得不太認同你認為你已經來了做一點改革了但我們今天要再談 把環境部這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界幫事業單位擦屁股\n288157\t314555\t環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的可是呢事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念我們沒有對台灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity那個叫什麼含容量做出這個評估而無限制的一直生產生產生產以爐渣為例以你的文化爐底渣為例以其他的事業這個生產為例你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物怎麼辦那大家\n318038\t320880\t就把SRF當成解決廢棄物的這個問題當然不是解決我上面講的那一些問題那不是爐渣底渣當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題廢塑膠的問題然後等等那這種SRF的固體燃料產品\n334769\t348922\t現在的問題就是品質太差沒有市場我們以前就提過水分太高含力量太高SRF的品質不穩定會造成人家使用者拿去當燃料燒的人設備會壞掉固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近日本韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆的部長我要記一下\n360012\t384791\t人家你在強迫的這個技術裡面你們這個SRF啊收受的廢棄物種類非常多卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應的處理技術比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠含氯的有機物質的這個光學分選機不在你們標準配備裡面是不是\n385822\t398780\t是不是?那你沒有辦法在你標準配備裡面你沒有辦法篩出這個含氯的你知道含氯的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎?包括 鈦 鈧芯 沒錯對\n403274\t422549\t啊你都知道所以你們知道的方法你們是把韓綠標準齁把他標準小於3就可以的韓國是要小於2歐盟是要小於0.2所以比人家寬鬆那更不要講韓拱標準韓拱標準我們是小於5歐盟是小於0.2韓國要小於1.0日本是0你把韓拱的韓綠的韓綠的燒出來會有帶凹心韓拱燒出來會怎麼樣\n432926\t452593\t林委員報告事實上林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在但是我們就是已經也發現這個問題所以從去年我上任之後就開始已經來你告訴我你怎麼講你剛剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛對不對\n453933\t455413\t對阿那你前端怎麼做對你前端怎麼改\n481559\t497226\t我現在問你你有沒有對應的英彩型的處理技術的規範你連光學分選機你都沒有再來我們未來因為要從SRF從產品做分類了那產品做分類\n498666\t508831\t制造商他就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裡邊沒有規範啊有有現在要進行嘛你的規範沒有啊你說你要去現看試車的時候要看那個都是末端了那我要問你現行的裡面SRF的品質規範有1500噸採樣一次但是呢\n519696\t533587\t也沒有規定採樣要留存記錄也不需要上傳給你們看你們主管機關也不用追蹤也不用控管然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次所以違反了你們的事業費企務清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容有罰則嗎\n537650\t558176\t給委員報告有罰則嗎就是說現在在推動的在修改的就會朝著我們要的方向所以目前都還沒有嘛那我再問你你們有訂出如果真的要將SRF這種固體廢棄物燃料的這個SRF要當成真正的產品你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎我想我們CNS當然\n562441\t592021\t那個國家的標準可能還是必須經過這個商檢期他們那邊所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞還有很多的缺失然後現在照你們狀況我們的熱淨值的要求是等同歐盟的倒數第二類的SRF的品質遠低於韓國跟日本在綠含量在拱含量也是很低的標準那你們說要改我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子\n594823\t614037\t所以以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準不就證實了說其實你們是以燃料化之名做成燃料以燃料化之名行焚化之實我要舉一個例子喔其實我們去看歐洲SRF人家都主要都在處理什麼主要在處理什麼不中你內行人歐洲為什麼SRF這種產品主要處理什麼不中\n625166\t642583\t主要人家都是處理家戶垃圾固體垃圾啦主要因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐所以他們其實處理生活垃圾為大宗\n643860\t659978\t主要喔!所以我們主要因為我們焚化的很多所以生活 Less本來就是理所當然焚化掉人家是還要再精緻的分選然後再加工品質最好再去焚化我們是直接燒而台灣的SRF主要是處理什麼事業廢棄物\n664183\t689264\t那因為瑞典我舉一個那個人家媒體報導過的梅拉倫發電廠產出的SRF他有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備要做有機物篩選把人用人的眼睛看不出來的人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來然後磁選然後把金屬非金屬再分出來然後要用這個光學儀器偵測塑膠材質\n690845\t711578\t﹗\n711929\t738145\t所謂你們現在這麼多年二三十年幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠你們都把它當成SRF的燃料我們就有點訝異說你們PET PE PLA等等這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面的reuse然後recycle就是要變成真正的再利用嗎結果你把它鼓勵成你把它燒掉做成燃料去燒掉\n739185\t762832\t那他根本沒有符合你的再利用裡面最核心的不是燒掉燒掉是不得燃料化也是不得已的你應該是要變成循環使用變成原料變成材料結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PETPEPPPS其他塑膠BLA全部當成這個公告可作為這個SRF\n764432\t779618\t所以你們的這一些支援循環零廢氣把SRF還當成是綠能廢轉能沒有將真正的這個東西可以循環使用的我講\n781092\t806333\tPETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎是不是那我現在在講齁林委員是請會後請我們主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的\n808675\t815359\t而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉\n838012\t854178\t所以這倒退路我們希望整個環境的這個污染的把關環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中結果這個改革221的改革如果沒有好的品質沒有好的管理是倒退路的\n855058\t863605\t我們至少去真正研埋真正分化還是高度把關的啊那個林委員這一塊我們會來檢討啦好不好我們需要的是不是檢討是不是跟那個林委員溝通說明好不好他應該跟全國人民溝通說明啊所以我們必須要講燃料化田地也是最後的手段他不能\n876415\t894607\t假田地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之時真的要嚴格的管制才是最正確的那我再最後講一點其實你們的這個版本二法合一的版本裡面第9條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責第9條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜\n906255\t912003\t我們都知道這個循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量所有可用的要盡量的循環再利用然後盡量源頭減量讓有限的資源不要浪費所以源頭減量也是二法合一的\n922779\t922979\t新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n938669\t961449\t你也要有設計一個蘿蔔跟棒子你們草案第25條的規範的製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則其實你也應該可以有配套相關的獎勵措施如這個複稅減免來鼓勵這個業者這個綠色設計以外要源頭減量啊蘿蔔棒子通通都要放進去所以這個我們在這裡語重心長喔\n963471\t991609\t我們看到外國有SRF我們也來做SRF可是SRF你沒有管好那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實但是管制的更寬鬆如果你的在利用田地行為在利用產品在利用規範管制的不好那麼就是以這個田地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實但是呢這樣子是不行的\n994868\t996636\t謝謝林淑芬委員我們先休息10分鐘\n","txt":"林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家早安是不是再請我們薛部長來薛部長好林委員好部長您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一當然二法合一你們現在宣告的草案裡面有幾個地方我們是不能接受的第一個就是我們資財法這個\n而草案的第3條將廢清法本來第二條第一項的廢棄物的定義改成這個廢棄資源那廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾但我們比較擔心的是你現在沒有廢棄物但純粹都只有廢棄資源這樣的概念他也沒有辦法真正的涵蓋到已經失去完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物然後\n在這個裡面我們還講說你要把廢棄物循環在利用的狀況裡面其實要達到這個目的要零廢棄最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已其實還要它治理原則法律架構還有這個執法上法制面執行面通通都要可行\n而且這才是最重要的再來就是說再利用我們講再利用因為我們通常講說最終處置部長我們講的最終處置一般都是講燒掉然後掩埋相對於燒掉和掩埋我們進入循環使用當中所以\n﹗\n我們對於你燃料化裡面最典型大家今天很多人問的就是SRF那我們希望這個循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能我們在講再生能源的定義裡面這個絕對不允許當成是再生能源即便是歐盟裡面歐盟的文件講到我們不管是天然的再生能源或者是這個生質能\n當然一般都講的是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分生物可分解的物質像紙類、雛魚、動植物、長海、有機物所以在歐盟的標準裡面SRF如果你含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電絕對不能認為是再生能源\n我們是希望這一點也要採注但是你們現在修法的重點將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中而且你們明文在第1245條的草案裡面草案45條將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中就是SRF那你們在立法說明欄裡面你們講說我們為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄\n所以將非有害釋然性的廢棄物經分選及存化後轉制為固體再生燃料為了避免外界質疑假SRF之名形分化之時造成環境污染這個是你們說明的我覺得這一段也蠻好笑的因為這個好像是此地無銀三百兩\n環境部把不符合這個淨零碳排區市也不符合資源循環政策且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方明顯的沒有把\n你也是要收掉那跟你要進入真正的循環利用的這個把廢棄資源當成資源的這樣的看待的這個東西是剛好相反的所以\n我才說此地無飲三百兩很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名形焚化之實你們說為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為可是剛好人家就是這麼以為那很多年前我也質詢過SR當我三年以前還在這個委員會的時候我也談過SRF的事情那時候部長你還沒有來SRF環境部\n當時：到現在我看起來也差不多 老不早雖然你覺得不太認同你認為你已經來了做一點改革了但我們今天要再談 把環境部這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界幫事業單位擦屁股\n環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的可是呢事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念我們沒有對台灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity那個叫什麼含容量做出這個評估而無限制的一直生產生產生產以爐渣為例以你的文化爐底渣為例以其他的事業這個生產為例你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物怎麼辦那大家\n就把SRF當成解決廢棄物的這個問題當然不是解決我上面講的那一些問題那不是爐渣底渣當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題廢塑膠的問題然後等等那這種SRF的固體燃料產品\n現在的問題就是品質太差沒有市場我們以前就提過水分太高含力量太高SRF的品質不穩定會造成人家使用者拿去當燃料燒的人設備會壞掉固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近日本韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆的部長我要記一下\n人家你在強迫的這個技術裡面你們這個SRF啊收受的廢棄物種類非常多卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應的處理技術比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠含氯的有機物質的這個光學分選機不在你們標準配備裡面是不是\n是不是?那你沒有辦法在你標準配備裡面你沒有辦法篩出這個含氯的你知道含氯的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎?包括 鈦 鈧芯 沒錯對\n啊你都知道所以你們知道的方法你們是把韓綠標準齁把他標準小於3就可以的韓國是要小於2歐盟是要小於0.2所以比人家寬鬆那更不要講韓拱標準韓拱標準我們是小於5歐盟是小於0.2韓國要小於1.0日本是0你把韓拱的韓綠的韓綠的燒出來會有帶凹心韓拱燒出來會怎麼樣\n林委員報告事實上林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在但是我們就是已經也發現這個問題所以從去年我上任之後就開始已經來你告訴我你怎麼講你剛剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛對不對\n對阿那你前端怎麼做對你前端怎麼改\n我現在問你你有沒有對應的英彩型的處理技術的規範你連光學分選機你都沒有再來我們未來因為要從SRF從產品做分類了那產品做分類\n制造商他就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裡邊沒有規範啊有有現在要進行嘛你的規範沒有啊你說你要去現看試車的時候要看那個都是末端了那我要問你現行的裡面SRF的品質規範有1500噸採樣一次但是呢\n也沒有規定採樣要留存記錄也不需要上傳給你們看你們主管機關也不用追蹤也不用控管然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次所以違反了你們的事業費企務清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容有罰則嗎\n給委員報告有罰則嗎就是說現在在推動的在修改的就會朝著我們要的方向所以目前都還沒有嘛那我再問你你們有訂出如果真的要將SRF這種固體廢棄物燃料的這個SRF要當成真正的產品你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎我想我們CNS當然\n那個國家的標準可能還是必須經過這個商檢期他們那邊所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞還有很多的缺失然後現在照你們狀況我們的熱淨值的要求是等同歐盟的倒數第二類的SRF的品質遠低於韓國跟日本在綠含量在拱含量也是很低的標準那你們說要改我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子\n所以以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準不就證實了說其實你們是以燃料化之名做成燃料以燃料化之名行焚化之實我要舉一個例子喔其實我們去看歐洲SRF人家都主要都在處理什麼主要在處理什麼不中你內行人歐洲為什麼SRF這種產品主要處理什麼不中\n主要人家都是處理家戶垃圾固體垃圾啦主要因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐所以他們其實處理生活垃圾為大宗\n主要喔!所以我們主要因為我們焚化的很多所以生活 Less本來就是理所當然焚化掉人家是還要再精緻的分選然後再加工品質最好再去焚化我們是直接燒而台灣的SRF主要是處理什麼事業廢棄物\n那因為瑞典我舉一個那個人家媒體報導過的梅拉倫發電廠產出的SRF他有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備要做有機物篩選把人用人的眼睛看不出來的人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來然後磁選然後把金屬非金屬再分出來然後要用這個光學儀器偵測塑膠材質\n﹗\n所謂你們現在這麼多年二三十年幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠你們都把它當成SRF的燃料我們就有點訝異說你們PET PE PLA等等這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面的reuse然後recycle就是要變成真正的再利用嗎結果你把它鼓勵成你把它燒掉做成燃料去燒掉\n那他根本沒有符合你的再利用裡面最核心的不是燒掉燒掉是不得燃料化也是不得已的你應該是要變成循環使用變成原料變成材料結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PETPEPPPS其他塑膠BLA全部當成這個公告可作為這個SRF\n所以你們的這一些支援循環零廢氣把SRF還當成是綠能廢轉能沒有將真正的這個東西可以循環使用的我講\nPETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎是不是那我現在在講齁林委員是請會後請我們主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的\n而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉\n所以這倒退路我們希望整個環境的這個污染的把關環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中結果這個改革221的改革如果沒有好的品質沒有好的管理是倒退路的\n我們至少去真正研埋真正分化還是高度把關的啊那個林委員這一塊我們會來檢討啦好不好我們需要的是不是檢討是不是跟那個林委員溝通說明好不好他應該跟全國人民溝通說明啊所以我們必須要講燃料化田地也是最後的手段他不能\n假田地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之時真的要嚴格的管制才是最正確的那我再最後講一點其實你們的這個版本二法合一的版本裡面第9條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責第9條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜\n我們都知道這個循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量所有可用的要盡量的循環再利用然後盡量源頭減量讓有限的資源不要浪費所以源頭減量也是二法合一的\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n你也要有設計一個蘿蔔跟棒子你們草案第25條的規範的製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則其實你也應該可以有配套相關的獎勵措施如這個複稅減免來鼓勵這個業者這個綠色設計以外要源頭減量啊蘿蔔棒子通通都要放進去所以這個我們在這裡語重心長喔\n我們看到外國有SRF我們也來做SRF可是SRF你沒有管好那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實但是管制的更寬鬆如果你的在利用田地行為在利用產品在利用規範管制的不好那麼就是以這個田地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實但是呢這樣子是不行的\n謝謝林淑芬委員我們先休息10分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.290 --> 00:28.017\n林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家早安是不是再請我們薛部長來薛部長好林委員好部長您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一當然二法合一你們現在宣告的草案裡面有幾個地方我們是不能接受的第一個就是我們資財法這個\n\n00:29.697 --> 00:51.876\n而草案的第3條將廢清法本來第二條第一項的廢棄物的定義改成這個廢棄資源那廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾但我們比較擔心的是你現在沒有廢棄物但純粹都只有廢棄資源這樣的概念他也沒有辦法真正的涵蓋到已經失去完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物然後\n\n00:54.218 --> 00:57.061\n在這個裡面我們還講說你要把廢棄物循環在利用的狀況裡面其實要達到這個目的要零廢棄最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已其實還要它治理原則法律架構還有這個執法上法制面執行面通通都要可行\n\n01:13.559 --> 01:21.864\n而且這才是最重要的再來就是說再利用我們講再利用因為我們通常講說最終處置部長我們講的最終處置一般都是講燒掉然後掩埋相對於燒掉和掩埋我們進入循環使用當中所以\n\n01:49.003 --> 02:13.130\n我們對於你燃料化裡面最典型大家今天很多人問的就是SRF那我們希望這個循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能我們在講再生能源的定義裡面這個絕對不允許當成是再生能源即便是歐盟裡面歐盟的文件講到我們不管是天然的再生能源或者是這個生質能\n\n02:15.231 --> 02:36.307\n當然一般都講的是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分生物可分解的物質像紙類、雛魚、動植物、長海、有機物所以在歐盟的標準裡面SRF如果你含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電絕對不能認為是再生能源\n\n02:37.228 --> 02:52.178\n我們是希望這一點也要採注但是你們現在修法的重點將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中而且你們明文在第1245條的草案裡面草案45條將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中就是SRF那你們在立法說明欄裡面你們講說我們為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄\n\n03:07.208 --> 03:11.729\n所以將非有害釋然性的廢棄物經分選及存化後轉制為固體再生燃料為了避免外界質疑假SRF之名形分化之時造成環境污染這個是你們說明的我覺得這一段也蠻好笑的因為這個好像是此地無銀三百兩\n\n03:29.575 --> 03:41.660\n環境部把不符合這個淨零碳排區市也不符合資源循環政策且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方明顯的沒有把\n\n03:48.742 --> 04:03.663\n你也是要收掉那跟你要進入真正的循環利用的這個把廢棄資源當成資源的這樣的看待的這個東西是剛好相反的所以\n\n04:05.182 --> 04:29.098\n我才說此地無飲三百兩很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名形焚化之實你們說為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為可是剛好人家就是這麼以為那很多年前我也質詢過SR當我三年以前還在這個委員會的時候我也談過SRF的事情那時候部長你還沒有來SRF環境部\n\n04:31.711 --> 04:38.213\n當時：到現在我看起來也差不多老不早雖然你覺得不太認同你認為你已經來了做一點改革了但我們今天要再談把環境部這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界幫事業單位擦屁股\n\n04:48.157 --> 05:14.555\n環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的可是呢事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念我們沒有對台灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity那個叫什麼含容量做出這個評估而無限制的一直生產生產生產以爐渣為例以你的文化爐底渣為例以其他的事業這個生產為例你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物怎麼辦那大家\n\n05:18.038 --> 05:20.880\n就把SRF當成解決廢棄物的這個問題當然不是解決我上面講的那一些問題那不是爐渣底渣當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題廢塑膠的問題然後等等那這種SRF的固體燃料產品\n\n05:34.769 --> 05:48.922\n現在的問題就是品質太差沒有市場我們以前就提過水分太高含力量太高SRF的品質不穩定會造成人家使用者拿去當燃料燒的人設備會壞掉固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近日本韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆的部長我要記一下\n\n06:00.012 --> 06:24.791\n人家你在強迫的這個技術裡面你們這個SRF啊收受的廢棄物種類非常多卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應的處理技術比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠含氯的有機物質的這個光學分選機不在你們標準配備裡面是不是\n\n06:25.822 --> 06:38.780\n是不是?那你沒有辦法在你標準配備裡面你沒有辦法篩出這個含氯的你知道含氯的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎?包括鈦鈧芯沒錯對\n\n06:43.274 --> 07:02.549\n啊你都知道所以你們知道的方法你們是把韓綠標準齁把他標準小於3就可以的韓國是要小於2歐盟是要小於0.2所以比人家寬鬆那更不要講韓拱標準韓拱標準我們是小於5歐盟是小於0.2韓國要小於1.0日本是0你把韓拱的韓綠的韓綠的燒出來會有帶凹心韓拱燒出來會怎麼樣\n\n07:12.926 --> 07:32.593\n林委員報告事實上林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在但是我們就是已經也發現這個問題所以從去年我上任之後就開始已經來你告訴我你怎麼講你剛剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛對不對\n\n07:33.933 --> 07:35.413\n對阿那你前端怎麼做對你前端怎麼改\n\n08:01.559 --> 08:17.226\n我現在問你你有沒有對應的英彩型的處理技術的規範你連光學分選機你都沒有再來我們未來因為要從SRF從產品做分類了那產品做分類\n\n08:18.666 --> 08:28.831\n制造商他就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裡邊沒有規範啊有有現在要進行嘛你的規範沒有啊你說你要去現看試車的時候要看那個都是末端了那我要問你現行的裡面SRF的品質規範有1500噸採樣一次但是呢\n\n08:39.696 --> 08:53.587\n也沒有規定採樣要留存記錄也不需要上傳給你們看你們主管機關也不用追蹤也不用控管然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次所以違反了你們的事業費企務清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容有罰則嗎\n\n08:57.650 --> 09:18.176\n給委員報告有罰則嗎就是說現在在推動的在修改的就會朝著我們要的方向所以目前都還沒有嘛那我再問你你們有訂出如果真的要將SRF這種固體廢棄物燃料的這個SRF要當成真正的產品你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎我想我們CNS當然\n\n09:22.441 --> 09:52.021\n那個國家的標準可能還是必須經過這個商檢期他們那邊所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞還有很多的缺失然後現在照你們狀況我們的熱淨值的要求是等同歐盟的倒數第二類的SRF的品質遠低於韓國跟日本在綠含量在拱含量也是很低的標準那你們說要改我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子\n\n09:54.823 --> 10:14.037\n所以以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準不就證實了說其實你們是以燃料化之名做成燃料以燃料化之名行焚化之實我要舉一個例子喔其實我們去看歐洲SRF人家都主要都在處理什麼主要在處理什麼不中你內行人歐洲為什麼SRF這種產品主要處理什麼不中\n\n10:25.166 --> 10:42.583\n主要人家都是處理家戶垃圾固體垃圾啦主要因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐所以他們其實處理生活垃圾為大宗\n\n10:43.860 --> 10:59.978\n主要喔!所以我們主要因為我們焚化的很多所以生活Less本來就是理所當然焚化掉人家是還要再精緻的分選然後再加工品質最好再去焚化我們是直接燒而台灣的SRF主要是處理什麼事業廢棄物\n\n11:04.183 --> 11:29.264\n那因為瑞典我舉一個那個人家媒體報導過的梅拉倫發電廠產出的SRF他有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備要做有機物篩選把人用人的眼睛看不出來的人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來然後磁選然後把金屬非金屬再分出來然後要用這個光學儀器偵測塑膠材質\n\n11:51.929 --> 12:18.145\n所謂你們現在這麼多年二三十年幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠你們都把它當成SRF的燃料我們就有點訝異說你們PETPEPLA等等這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面的reuse然後recycle就是要變成真正的再利用嗎結果你把它鼓勵成你把它燒掉做成燃料去燒掉\n\n12:19.185 --> 12:42.832\n那他根本沒有符合你的再利用裡面最核心的不是燒掉燒掉是不得燃料化也是不得已的你應該是要變成循環使用變成原料變成材料結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PETPEPPPS其他塑膠BLA全部當成這個公告可作為這個SRF\n\n12:44.432 --> 12:59.618\n所以你們的這一些支援循環零廢氣把SRF還當成是綠能廢轉能沒有將真正的這個東西可以循環使用的我講\n\n13:01.092 --> 13:26.333\nPETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎是不是那我現在在講齁林委員是請會後請我們主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的\n\n13:28.675 --> 13:35.359\n而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉\n\n13:58.012 --> 14:14.178\n所以這倒退路我們希望整個環境的這個污染的把關環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中結果這個改革221的改革如果沒有好的品質沒有好的管理是倒退路的\n\n14:15.058 --> 14:23.605\n我們至少去真正研埋真正分化還是高度把關的啊那個林委員這一塊我們會來檢討啦好不好我們需要的是不是檢討是不是跟那個林委員溝通說明好不好他應該跟全國人民溝通說明啊所以我們必須要講燃料化田地也是最後的手段他不能\n\n14:36.415 --> 14:54.607\n假田地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之時真的要嚴格的管制才是最正確的那我再最後講一點其實你們的這個版本二法合一的版本裡面第9條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責第9條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜\n\n15:06.255 --> 15:12.003\n我們都知道這個循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量所有可用的要盡量的循環再利用然後盡量源頭減量讓有限的資源不要浪費所以源頭減量也是二法合一的\n\n15:22.779 --> 15:22.979\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n\n15:38.669 --> 16:01.449\n你也要有設計一個蘿蔔跟棒子你們草案第25條的規範的製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則其實你也應該可以有配套相關的獎勵措施如這個複稅減免來鼓勵這個業者這個綠色設計以外要源頭減量啊蘿蔔棒子通通都要放進去所以這個我們在這裡語重心長喔\n\n16:03.471 --> 16:31.609\n我們看到外國有SRF我們也來做SRF可是SRF你沒有管好那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實但是管制的更寬鬆如果你的在利用田地行為在利用產品在利用規範管制的不好那麼就是以這個田地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實但是呢這樣子是不行的\n\n16:34.868 --> 16:36.636\n謝謝林淑芬委員我們先休息10分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.29,"end":28.017,"text":"林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家早安是不是再請我們薛部長來薛部長好林委員好部長您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一當然二法合一你們現在宣告的草案裡面有幾個地方我們是不能接受的第一個就是我們資財法這個"},{"start":29.697,"end":51.876,"text":"而草案的第3條將廢清法本來第二條第一項的廢棄物的定義改成這個廢棄資源那廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾但我們比較擔心的是你現在沒有廢棄物但純粹都只有廢棄資源這樣的概念他也沒有辦法真正的涵蓋到已經失去完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物然後"},{"start":54.218,"end":57.061,"text":"在這個裡面我們還講說你要把廢棄物循環在利用的狀況裡面其實要達到這個目的要零廢棄最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已其實還要它治理原則法律架構還有這個執法上法制面執行面通通都要可行"},{"start":73.559,"end":81.864,"text":"而且這才是最重要的再來就是說再利用我們講再利用因為我們通常講說最終處置部長我們講的最終處置一般都是講燒掉然後掩埋相對於燒掉和掩埋我們進入循環使用當中所以"},{"start":92.551,"end":108.763,"text":"﹗"},{"start":109.003,"end":133.13,"text":"我們對於你燃料化裡面最典型大家今天很多人問的就是SRF那我們希望這個循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能我們在講再生能源的定義裡面這個絕對不允許當成是再生能源即便是歐盟裡面歐盟的文件講到我們不管是天然的再生能源或者是這個生質能"},{"start":135.231,"end":156.307,"text":"當然一般都講的是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分生物可分解的物質像紙類、雛魚、動植物、長海、有機物所以在歐盟的標準裡面SRF如果你含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電絕對不能認為是再生能源"},{"start":157.228,"end":172.178,"text":"我們是希望這一點也要採注但是你們現在修法的重點將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中而且你們明文在第1245條的草案裡面草案45條將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中就是SRF那你們在立法說明欄裡面你們講說我們為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄"},{"start":187.208,"end":191.729,"text":"所以將非有害釋然性的廢棄物經分選及存化後轉制為固體再生燃料為了避免外界質疑假SRF之名形分化之時造成環境污染這個是你們說明的我覺得這一段也蠻好笑的因為這個好像是此地無銀三百兩"},{"start":209.575,"end":221.66,"text":"環境部把不符合這個淨零碳排區市也不符合資源循環政策且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方明顯的沒有把"},{"start":228.742,"end":243.663,"text":"你也是要收掉那跟你要進入真正的循環利用的這個把廢棄資源當成資源的這樣的看待的這個東西是剛好相反的所以"},{"start":245.182,"end":269.098,"text":"我才說此地無飲三百兩很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名形焚化之實你們說為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為可是剛好人家就是這麼以為那很多年前我也質詢過SR當我三年以前還在這個委員會的時候我也談過SRF的事情那時候部長你還沒有來SRF環境部"},{"start":271.711,"end":278.213,"text":"當時：到現在我看起來也差不多 老不早雖然你覺得不太認同你認為你已經來了做一點改革了但我們今天要再談 把環境部這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界幫事業單位擦屁股"},{"start":288.157,"end":314.555,"text":"環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的可是呢事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念我們沒有對台灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity那個叫什麼含容量做出這個評估而無限制的一直生產生產生產以爐渣為例以你的文化爐底渣為例以其他的事業這個生產為例你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物怎麼辦那大家"},{"start":318.038,"end":320.88,"text":"就把SRF當成解決廢棄物的這個問題當然不是解決我上面講的那一些問題那不是爐渣底渣當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題廢塑膠的問題然後等等那這種SRF的固體燃料產品"},{"start":334.769,"end":348.922,"text":"現在的問題就是品質太差沒有市場我們以前就提過水分太高含力量太高SRF的品質不穩定會造成人家使用者拿去當燃料燒的人設備會壞掉固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近日本韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆的部長我要記一下"},{"start":360.012,"end":384.791,"text":"人家你在強迫的這個技術裡面你們這個SRF啊收受的廢棄物種類非常多卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應的處理技術比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠含氯的有機物質的這個光學分選機不在你們標準配備裡面是不是"},{"start":385.822,"end":398.78,"text":"是不是?那你沒有辦法在你標準配備裡面你沒有辦法篩出這個含氯的你知道含氯的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎?包括 鈦 鈧芯 沒錯對"},{"start":403.274,"end":422.549,"text":"啊你都知道所以你們知道的方法你們是把韓綠標準齁把他標準小於3就可以的韓國是要小於2歐盟是要小於0.2所以比人家寬鬆那更不要講韓拱標準韓拱標準我們是小於5歐盟是小於0.2韓國要小於1.0日本是0你把韓拱的韓綠的韓綠的燒出來會有帶凹心韓拱燒出來會怎麼樣"},{"start":432.926,"end":452.593,"text":"林委員報告事實上林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在但是我們就是已經也發現這個問題所以從去年我上任之後就開始已經來你告訴我你怎麼講你剛剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛對不對"},{"start":453.933,"end":455.413,"text":"對阿那你前端怎麼做對你前端怎麼改"},{"start":481.559,"end":497.226,"text":"我現在問你你有沒有對應的英彩型的處理技術的規範你連光學分選機你都沒有再來我們未來因為要從SRF從產品做分類了那產品做分類"},{"start":498.666,"end":508.831,"text":"制造商他就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裡邊沒有規範啊有有現在要進行嘛你的規範沒有啊你說你要去現看試車的時候要看那個都是末端了那我要問你現行的裡面SRF的品質規範有1500噸採樣一次但是呢"},{"start":519.696,"end":533.587,"text":"也沒有規定採樣要留存記錄也不需要上傳給你們看你們主管機關也不用追蹤也不用控管然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次所以違反了你們的事業費企務清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容有罰則嗎"},{"start":537.65,"end":558.176,"text":"給委員報告有罰則嗎就是說現在在推動的在修改的就會朝著我們要的方向所以目前都還沒有嘛那我再問你你們有訂出如果真的要將SRF這種固體廢棄物燃料的這個SRF要當成真正的產品你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎我想我們CNS當然"},{"start":562.441,"end":592.021,"text":"那個國家的標準可能還是必須經過這個商檢期他們那邊所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞還有很多的缺失然後現在照你們狀況我們的熱淨值的要求是等同歐盟的倒數第二類的SRF的品質遠低於韓國跟日本在綠含量在拱含量也是很低的標準那你們說要改我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子"},{"start":594.823,"end":614.037,"text":"所以以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準不就證實了說其實你們是以燃料化之名做成燃料以燃料化之名行焚化之實我要舉一個例子喔其實我們去看歐洲SRF人家都主要都在處理什麼主要在處理什麼不中你內行人歐洲為什麼SRF這種產品主要處理什麼不中"},{"start":625.166,"end":642.583,"text":"主要人家都是處理家戶垃圾固體垃圾啦主要因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐所以他們其實處理生活垃圾為大宗"},{"start":643.86,"end":659.978,"text":"主要喔!所以我們主要因為我們焚化的很多所以生活 Less本來就是理所當然焚化掉人家是還要再精緻的分選然後再加工品質最好再去焚化我們是直接燒而台灣的SRF主要是處理什麼事業廢棄物"},{"start":664.183,"end":689.264,"text":"那因為瑞典我舉一個那個人家媒體報導過的梅拉倫發電廠產出的SRF他有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備要做有機物篩選把人用人的眼睛看不出來的人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來然後磁選然後把金屬非金屬再分出來然後要用這個光學儀器偵測塑膠材質"},{"start":690.845,"end":711.578,"text":"﹗"},{"start":711.929,"end":738.145,"text":"所謂你們現在這麼多年二三十年幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠你們都把它當成SRF的燃料我們就有點訝異說你們PET PE PLA等等這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面的reuse然後recycle就是要變成真正的再利用嗎結果你把它鼓勵成你把它燒掉做成燃料去燒掉"},{"start":739.185,"end":762.832,"text":"那他根本沒有符合你的再利用裡面最核心的不是燒掉燒掉是不得燃料化也是不得已的你應該是要變成循環使用變成原料變成材料結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PETPEPPPS其他塑膠BLA全部當成這個公告可作為這個SRF"},{"start":764.432,"end":779.618,"text":"所以你們的這一些支援循環零廢氣把SRF還當成是綠能廢轉能沒有將真正的這個東西可以循環使用的我講"},{"start":781.092,"end":806.333,"text":"PETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎是不是那我現在在講齁林委員是請會後請我們主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的"},{"start":808.675,"end":815.359,"text":"而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉"},{"start":838.012,"end":854.178,"text":"所以這倒退路我們希望整個環境的這個污染的把關環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中結果這個改革221的改革如果沒有好的品質沒有好的管理是倒退路的"},{"start":855.058,"end":863.605,"text":"我們至少去真正研埋真正分化還是高度把關的啊那個林委員這一塊我們會來檢討啦好不好我們需要的是不是檢討是不是跟那個林委員溝通說明好不好他應該跟全國人民溝通說明啊所以我們必須要講燃料化田地也是最後的手段他不能"},{"start":876.415,"end":894.607,"text":"假田地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之時真的要嚴格的管制才是最正確的那我再最後講一點其實你們的這個版本二法合一的版本裡面第9條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責第9條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜"},{"start":906.255,"end":912.003,"text":"我們都知道這個循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量所有可用的要盡量的循環再利用然後盡量源頭減量讓有限的資源不要浪費所以源頭減量也是二法合一的"},{"start":922.779,"end":922.979,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":938.669,"end":961.449,"text":"你也要有設計一個蘿蔔跟棒子你們草案第25條的規範的製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則其實你也應該可以有配套相關的獎勵措施如這個複稅減免來鼓勵這個業者這個綠色設計以外要源頭減量啊蘿蔔棒子通通都要放進去所以這個我們在這裡語重心長喔"},{"start":963.471,"end":991.609,"text":"我們看到外國有SRF我們也來做SRF可是SRF你沒有管好那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實但是管制的更寬鬆如果你的在利用田地行為在利用產品在利用規範管制的不好那麼就是以這個田地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實但是呢這樣子是不行的"},{"start":994.868,"end":996.636,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員我們先休息10分鐘"}]}}}}