{"id":149875,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d23135bb3801278d522fafd1f4736135d62a1df8ba9b0039caa7a6fe6342ee0b0898265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:50:27 - 11:05:27","影片長度":"00:15:00","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「面對中共常態化對我侵擾與威脅之影響與應處作為」，併請國家安全局副局長、海洋委員會副主任委員列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-6"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":900,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:05:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T10:50:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時50分）好，謝謝召委，麻煩我們海巡署署長。"],["主席：請海巡署周署長。"],["王委員定宇：以及陸軍參謀長。"],["主席：陸軍參謀長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：兩位早，今天幾個問題要就教於您。當然今天新聞已經報導了，我看有些東西也說明了，在今天早上6點中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外翻覆，這是人道救援。這個翻覆看起來是有5個漁民，其中1個人救起來，還有4人……"],["周副主任委員美伍：更正，6名。"],["王委員定宇：喔，是6個，6個漁民有1個救起來，另外5個失蹤不見了。"],["周副主任委員美伍：4位救起，2個生還，2個已經罹難。"],["王委員定宇：OK。"],["周副主任委員美伍：另外有2個現在還失蹤搜尋中。"],["王委員定宇：所以總共6個，2個生還，2個不幸，另外2位待搜救？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["王委員定宇：我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是，今天早上6點2分的時候，接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知。"],["王委員定宇：中華搜救是哪邊的單位？"],["周副主任委員美伍：是中共當局搜救單位。"],["王委員定宇：所以是中國尋求我們這邊……"],["周副主任委員美伍：中國海事中心通知我們國搜……"],["王委員定宇：請我們協助嘛！"],["周副主任委員美伍：請我們協助，對。"],["王委員定宇：那我們就出船去協助。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們立刻出船。"],["王委員定宇：這個符合國際慣例啦！人道救援我們本來就沒有在分啦！"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒有，這個也是我們平常、日常的工作範圍。"],["王委員定宇：好，我就是要問這一個。這種要求我們協助救援，是罕見還是常常遇到？"],["周副主任委員美伍：經常遇到。"],["王委員定宇：經常遇到。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們有個數字，我們近3年，他們請求我們支援的就有17案，我們救起119人。"],["王委員定宇：其實我現在講這個事情就是，遇到海難，我們基於國際的人道原則，中國要求我們協助，我們都會協助。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們一定協助。"],["王委員定宇：同樣的道理，遇到違法者侵入我們的海域，特別是三無船舶，沒有船籍、沒有許可證，連泊港證明都沒有的，全世界包含中國海事單位其實都會取締，違法就取締、該驅離就驅離、執法技巧該檢討就檢討，遇到人道救援，今天凌晨，中國也是要求尋求我們的協助嘛！所以現在還有2位在待尋求，所以在執法、人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚。這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權，那天有看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡、鼓勵海巡，那個分隊長還哽咽，我可以體會那種心情。因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情，海域被盜採砂石，形成水域的不安、水面下水流的問題，在澎湖那邊也常遇到。所以該執法還是要執法，這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者，兩個扭打在一起，沒有人會講那個是互毆啦！那個叫做拒捕啦！那個叫妨礙公務啊！執法者跟違法者之間是有身分的差別的，人道救援有人道救援的差別的。因為還有2個失蹤，我接下來要請教陸軍，我們在東碇島是有駐軍的嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：報告，是。"],["王委員定宇：就在旁邊嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["王委員定宇：所以這2個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還，不管哪一國的人，我們都不希望有人命的損傷。這2個失蹤，可能會有水流的漂流、可能會到岸上等等，我們有沒有請東碇島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這一點剛剛在前面的委員質詢時，署長已經有報告過了，其實整個金防部東碇島，都是藉由岸際在協助搜索海上有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象。"],["王委員定宇：所以目前還沒有搜獲什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：島上目前……"],["王委員定宇：好，現在有一個CHANNEL72，就是72號頻道，大概156.625MHz無線電頻道，就是海事頻道。"],["周副主任委員美伍：是。"],["王委員定宇：民間已經傳出來了，聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求，他也是要找他們失蹤的漁民，希望要登東碇島來協助搜索這個事情，他也把頻道列出來了，參謀長，有或沒有、或是不說，我都可以尊重，有沒有這個事情？"],["陳參謀長建義：東碇島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求。"],["王委員定宇：這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過？"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有，東碇島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部，沒有接收到這樣的頻道上面的……"],["王委員定宇：我要提醒參謀長，民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音的。"],["陳參謀長建義：是的、是的。"],["王委員定宇：所以如果有這樣子的聲音，是偽造呢，還是我們沒有注意到？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告，因為我剛剛也都有在掌握跟查證，第一點，沒有這樣的需求；第二點，在我們的規則上面，我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索。"],["王委員定宇：不要說共軍啦，我們有國家主權嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["王委員定宇：就算在12海里、我們的水域內，也是我們的海巡相關人員去搜救，不可能讓別國人到我國水域執法。"],["陳參謀長建義：不可能，是的。"],["王委員定宇：這是一個基本的主權概念，所以這件事情就是讓你知道有這樣的傳聞。"],["陳參謀長建義：我有掌握。"],["王委員定宇：有或沒有要掌握確實。"],["陳參謀長建義：有掌握。"],["王委員定宇：國家可以不說，但不能說謊，這是原則。"],["陳參謀長建義：是，不會，謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：兩位請回，我現在要請教邱部長。"],["周副主任委員美伍：報告委員，我給您更正一下，在搜救的狀況之下，如果對方經由我們的海事單位申請許可就可以進入到我們的水域。"],["王委員定宇：去年還是前年他們有曾經1架直升機掉在我們澎湖附近。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們都有許可過，今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下。"],["王委員定宇：這個講法比較完整，就是我們國家的水域內，當然我們來負責，你要進來要經過許可。"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，現在我們是聯合在搜救，他們在我們線內現在有4艘，海巡2艘……"],["王委員定宇：那個是在許可的狀況下。"],["周副主任委員美伍：我們有4艘，還有2艘海警在線外，所以整個搜救行動……"],["王委員定宇：署長，你再講一次，他們有4艘公務船在我們的線內，它有經過申請？"],["周副主任委員美伍：對，都有經過申請，所以我們現在協力在做搜尋。"],["王委員定宇：你知道這證明什麼？"],["周副主任委員美伍：而且我們一直有……"],["王委員定宇：你知道這證明什麼事情？那就是我們的水域，我們其實不用在政治上找彼此的麻煩……"],["周副主任委員美伍：不會、不會，在救生救難的時候，在人道救援……"],["王委員定宇：你在申請人道救援，我們許可後，把它升高為政治話，說什麼要派他們的海監船、海巡船來我們的線內巡邏，這是不可以的。"],["周副主任委員美伍：不是只有這一次這樣做，我們過去也都在人道救援、救生救難方面，我們一定是最快的時間去救援。"],["王委員定宇：這個部分我知道之前有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣的情形。我們的水域我們管理，我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權，但是經由申請許可，人道救援我們是可以允許的，這一次就有4艘中國公務船提出申請，我們許可讓它進來搜救這一艘中國漁船，這樣沒有錯嘛？"],["周副主任委員美伍：沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：這才是一個道理嘛！不要動不動就說那個水域也是它的，金門水域也他們管的，來來去去都由它，這個叫政治話，把一個國際規範複雜化，對兩邊都不好。兩位請回，我接下來要請教部長。","部長，剛才我們從周署長那邊都聽到了，他們要進行搜救，4艘船也是他們主動提出申請，我們許可進到我們的線內來搜救，接下來就發生這個事情了。中國國台辦說臺灣海峽它有管轄權，我不加任何註解，這是他們今天宣布的，我是拿它辦公室的這個公文，在這裡，你身為我們國家的國防部長，你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法？"],["邱部長國正：委員好。中共最近講了很多話語，但我們有個原則，這是當初既定的，我們有我們的主權、我們有我們的治權，這都是一個具體的事實，不管它怎麼講，我們還是堅守我們的論調，而且堅守我們的崗位。"],["王委員定宇：現在全世界看臺灣海峽是有國際水域，也有我們的領海部分，就看是12海里或幾海里，通常緩衝區在24海里外，我們有個緩衝區，所以當它講臺灣海峽都有管轄權，當然這是一個政治語言。以早上這個漁船的情形，它要進來的時候也是照規矩申請許可進來，守規矩，我們誇獎，就照國際規範來做，但它說臺灣海峽它有管轄權，我再講一次，目前的臺灣海峽在國際上各國都認定有國際海域的部分，也有我們領海的部分。但中國如果這樣講，它如果要執行它所謂的管轄權的話，進到或接近我們的緩衝帶時，是由海軍負責，還是海巡負責？"],["邱部長國正：這是有一個程序，剛剛海巡署也講得很清楚，它一有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責。"],["王委員定宇：看它是什麼船？"],["邱部長國正：對。假使它說它有這個管轄權，我們有我們的治權……"],["王委員定宇：我們有我們的主權跟治權。"],["邱部長國正：是，有我們的主權。"],["王委員定宇：我要提醒的是在灰色地帶……它現在都是先打法理戰，模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫，壓迫的時候有時候會用它的海警、海監船，然後我們這邊就是海巡來對應，等到那邊模糊到一個狀態的時候，他們海軍相關的船艦或者它的漁政船就會出現了，這是它一貫的套路，它在菲律賓這樣幹，它在越南也這樣幹，中國在東海也是這樣做。所以當它在模糊化這個管轄權，或者無視國際規範的時候，我覺得我們在應處的標準作業可能要好好思考一下，這是一個嚴肅的課題，不管在軍談裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的作法，否則這樣一直壓迫下去，我就要提一件事情，我們到重層嚇阻那一塊。","從2016年開始，我們國家的戰略基本構想、想定是防衛固守、重層嚇阻，一層、一層，我們固守之後，具體的作為是拒敵彼岸，所以我們會有一些遠距、遙攻、精準性的，我把它叫做積極性防禦武器，包含美方賣給我們的相關武器，射程300公里、幾百公里的，那個大概就是拒敵彼岸、擊敵海上、毀敵水際、殲敵灘頭，那時候我們常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛，大概這整個構想、想定是這樣子。但是當你在重層嚇阻，我們就像一個洋蔥一樣，外國人把它叫做什麼？把它取名叫做豪豬戰術，就像洋蔥一層、一層來保護我們國家2,300萬人。可是你有沒有發現，灰色地帶衝突是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣，一條、一塊、一塊把你壓迫去除掉，金門水域、西南空域、東北角，在宮古海峽（Miyako）那邊。所以我請教部長，中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅會不會形成一種剝洋蔥的方式，把我們重層嚇阻的這一層、一層，把你的空間一直往內壓縮？你有沒有感受到這個事情？你們的應處之道是什麼？"],["邱部長國正：他們現在用這個方法，所以我講灰色不光是地帶，包含很多事件，配合它的三戰，不管是心理、輿論跟法律，看來它是一步、一步的，但是對我們國軍來講的話，委員剛剛也講了，不管是豪豬也好或是洋蔥也好，我們最外一層皮就已經在那個線上了，沒有讓它一層、一層這樣剝的空間，我們也不容易……"],["王委員定宇：你現在講是沒有讓它有剝的空間。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["王委員定宇：因為我還有一個題目要問，我希望國防部具體提出每一層、每一層要怎麼守住，洋蔥被剝掉了，要再推回去很難喔！"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解，我跟委員報告，有關我們現在在做的，每一年不管是任何演訓，有什麼狀況，然後我要怎麼處理。"],["王委員定宇：就是說應變的時間跟應變的方法、應變的距離對安全很重要，對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要。","我最後請教你關於無人機防禦系統，我看到你們現在提出一個要採購遙控無人機防禦系統UDS，這個大概就是上次烈嶼發生那個事件之後，我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統，對不對？我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統，我們發現那個標案有問題，你們也拉下來重來了，本席現在好奇要請問，你們回復本席這邊說是9億，後來媒體報導你們要買26套，你們現在是計畫用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎？"],["邱部長國正：請陸軍做說明。"],["王委員定宇：這個金額對嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個有列入到預算書表，113、114兩個年度是九億八千九百多萬。"],["王委員定宇：買26套？"],["陳參謀長建義：由陸軍統建採購26套。"],["王委員定宇：主席，抱歉，我跟你借1分鐘。第二個問題，我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案？因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統整合在一起，因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起，所以我們弄了兩個科研案，之後被我們點出荒謬的地方是，你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做，它就是不會做，你還讓它一家做兩套，一次要買兩套，後來這個案子部長裁示拉下來了。我現在好奇的是，這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試，可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC、被動雷達測試POC、干擾測試，你們變成單項測試，有這樣子嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個所謂概念性的測試（POC），它就是為了確保……"],["王委員定宇：概念性驗證嘛。"],["陳參謀長建義：對！概念驗證，它就是為了確保國內廠商有這個整合……"],["王委員定宇：你們是整合好的系統做POC？還是單項、單項做POC？"],["陳參謀長建義：整個組合起來的，不是單項、單項。"],["王委員定宇：對，你如果是單項、單項的話，我就要質疑你們哦！"],["陳參謀長建義：它就是個實體實際結合我們作戰場景來驗證。"],["王委員定宇：如果你不整合起來，互相會被干擾，到底作用、副作用是什麼，你們不知道。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，是整合的，我跟您報告是整合的。"],["王委員定宇：確定？"],["陳參謀長建義：是，確定。"],["王委員定宇：你們的標案是個案POC還是整合POC？"],["陳參謀長建義：整合POC。"],["王委員定宇：OK，好，那我們會繼續來觀察你們這個案子，謝謝。"],["陳參謀長建義：是，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","羅美玲","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 887.86, \"end\": 888.0, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 888.0, \"end\": 888.02, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,359 --> 00:00:27,376\n謝謝昭緯,麻煩我們海巡署署長﹖清海巡署周署長﹖以及陸軍參謀長﹖陸軍參謀長委員長兩位早,我們今天有幾個問題要就教於您當然今天新聞已經報導,我看有些東西也說明了在今天早上6點,中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外\n\n2\n00:00:28,342 --> 00:00:56,667\n翻覆這是人道救援那這個翻覆的話看起來是有五個漁民其中一個人救起來還有四個六個漁民有一個救起來另外五個失蹤不見了兩個救起兩個四位救起兩個生還兩個已經離難另外有兩個現在還失蹤搜尋中所以總共六個兩個生還兩個不信那另外兩位待搜救\n\n3\n00:00:58,008 --> 00:01:03,001\n我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援\n\n4\n00:01:03,436 --> 00:01:32,295\n是,我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知中華搜救是哪邊的單位?是中共當局的一個搜救的單位所以是中國尋求我們這邊協助嗎?中國海事中心通知我們國搜請我們協助嗎?請我們協助,對那我們就出船去協助我們立刻出船這個符合國際慣例,人到救援我們本來就沒有單分的這個也是我們平常日常的工作範圍\n\n5\n00:01:34,097 --> 00:01:52,449\n這種要求我們協助救援是罕見還是常常遇到?經常遇到我們有個數字我們去年一年是我們近三年有17案119人我們近三年像這樣子他們請求我們支援的就有17案我們救起來了113人\n\n6\n00:01:54,130 --> 00:01:54,651\n李卓人議員\n\n7\n00:02:09,087 --> 00:02:09,367\n委員會主席\n\n8\n00:02:25,487 --> 00:02:52,709\n遇到人道救援今天早上凌晨中國也是要求尋求我們的協助嘛所以現在還有兩位在帶尋求所以其實在執法人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權那天我看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡鼓勵海巡那個分隊長還哽咽我可以體會那種心情因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情\n\n9\n00:02:53,309 --> 00:03:09,489\n海域被倒採這個沙石形成水域的不安那個水面下水流的問題在澎湖那邊也常遇到所以該執法還是要執法這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者兩個牛打在一起沒有人會想那個叫互毆啦\n\n10\n00:03:10,390 --> 00:03:38,712\n那個叫做拒捕啊那個叫妨礙公務啊執法者跟違法者真是有身份的差別的人道救援有人道救援的差別的那因為我還有兩個失蹤我接下來要請教陸軍我們在東定島是有駐軍的嘛王老師就在旁邊嘛是的所以這兩個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還不管哪一國的人我們都不希望有人命的損傷那這兩個失蹤可能會有水流的漂流可能會到岸上等等\n\n11\n00:03:40,132 --> 00:04:07,494\n我們有沒有請東定島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭報告委員這一點剛剛在前面的委員提詢的時候署長已經有報告過了其實整個軍防部、東定島都是藉由這個案記在協助搜索海上的有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象所以目前還沒有收獲什麼島上目前現在有一個\n\n12\n00:04:09,175 --> 00:04:37,767\nChannel72就是72號頻道大概156.625MHz這一個無線電頻道這是海事頻道民間已經傳出來了聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求他也是以我要找我們失蹤的漁民希望他們要登東定島來協助搜索這個事情他也把頻道列出來了那個\n\n13\n00:04:40,596 --> 00:04:55,942\n參謀長有或沒有或不說我都可以尊重有沒有這個事情東定島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求沒有接到這樣的請求這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過東定島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部沒有接收到這樣的\n\n14\n00:04:58,303 --> 00:05:20,794\n我要提醒參謀長,民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音,所以如果有這樣的聲音是偽造呢?還是我們沒有注意到?因為我剛剛也都有掌握跟查證,我跟委員報告,第一點沒有這樣的需求第二點,在我們的規則上面我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索\n\n15\n00:05:21,334 --> 00:05:21,714\n兩位請回,我現在請邱部長\n\n16\n00:05:48,339 --> 00:06:08,429\n報告委員我給您更正一下好不好因為在收救的狀況之下如果對方經由我們海事單位申請許可對他就可以進入到我們的水域我們曾經去年還簽都有我們都有許可過對我們都有許可過那今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下就是說我們國家我們的水域內當然我們來負責你要進來要經過許可\n\n17\n00:06:14,572 --> 00:06:33,040\n現在我們是聯合在搜救他們在我們縣內的現在有4艘海巡2艘那是許可的狀況我們有4艘那還有2艘海警在縣外所以整個的搜救行動你再講一次他們有4艘他們的公務船在我們的縣內那他有經過申請\n\n18\n00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:34,020\n李卓人議員\n\n19\n00:06:54,910 --> 00:07:23,585\n不是只有這一次這樣做我們過去也都是人道救援方面在救生救難方面我們一定是最快的時間這個部分就是說因為之前我知道有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣情形就是我們的水域我們管理我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權但是經由申請許可人道救援我們是可以允許的那這一次就有4艘中國公共船他們提出申請我們許可讓他進來搜救這一艘中國的漁船這樣沒有錯嗎沒錯\n\n20\n00:07:24,565 --> 00:07:25,085\n兩位請回我接下來請教部長來部長\n\n21\n00:07:44,090 --> 00:08:07,488\n部長剛才我們從周署長那邊就聽到了他們要進行搜救四艘船也是他們主動提出申請我們許可進到我們的縣內來搜救今天就發生這個事情了中國的國台辦說台灣海峽它有管轄權我不加任何註解是他們今天宣布的我拿辦公室的公文在這裡\n\n22\n00:08:08,905 --> 00:08:15,391\n你身為我們國家的國防部長,你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法?現在全世界以\n\n23\n00:08:31,286 --> 00:08:54,188\n看台灣海峽是它有國際水域也有我們的領海的部分就看12海里幾海里那通常緩衝區在20日海里外嘛我們有個緩衝區所以當他講說台灣海峽都有管轄權當然這是一個政治語言啦依照上這個漁船的情形他要進來的時候他還是照規矩申請許可進來守規矩我們誇獎他你就照國際規範來\n\n24\n00:08:55,569 --> 00:09:09,795\n但他想說台灣海峽他有管轄權我再講一次目前的台灣海峽國際上各國都認定他有國際海域的部分也有我們領海的部分但中國如果這樣講他如果要執行他所謂的管轄權的話\n\n25\n00:09:12,470 --> 00:09:29,700\n進到我們的接近緩衝帶的時候是由海軍負責還是海巡負責?加州有一個程序,剛才海巡署也講得很清楚它有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責看它是什麼船?對那加州在它講它有這個管轄權那我們有我們的治權\n\n26\n00:09:31,267 --> 00:09:45,681\n對,我們有我們的主權跟治權對,也有我們的主權我要提醒就是說在灰色地帶他現在都是先打法理戰模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫壓迫的時候有時候他會用他的海警\n\n27\n00:09:46,732 --> 00:10:09,123\n海監船然後我們這邊就海巡來對應那等到那邊模糊到一個狀態的時候他們的海軍相關的船艦或者他的那個漁政船就會出現了這是他一貫的套路他在菲律賓這樣幹他在越南也這樣幹中國在東海也是這樣做所以當他在模糊化這個管轄權或者無視國際規範的時候我覺得我們在應處的標準作業\n\n28\n00:10:14,565 --> 00:10:30,933\n可能要好好思考一下這是一個嚴肅的課題不管在軍團裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的做法否則這樣一直壓迫下去呢我就要提一件事情我們到那個崇禎賀祖那一塊\n\n29\n00:10:32,301 --> 00:10:59,822\n我們從2016年開始我們國家的戰略的基本構想想定是防衛固守重層嚇阻一層一層我們固守之後呢具體的作為是具體筆案所以我們會有一些遠距遙攻精準性的我把它叫做積極性防禦武器包含美方賣給我們的相關的武器射程300公里幾百公里的那個大概就是具體筆案\n\n30\n00:11:01,964 --> 00:11:11,814\n擊敵海上毀敵水際兼敵灘頭那時候我們常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛大概這整個構想想定是這樣子\n\n31\n00:11:12,864 --> 00:11:41,923\n但是當你在重層嚇阻我們就像一個洋蔥一樣外國人把它叫做什麼把它取名叫做豪豬戰術其實就像洋蔥一層一層來保護我們的國家2300萬人可是你有沒有發現灰色地帶衝突它是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣一條一塊一塊把你壓迫去除掉金門水域、西南空域、東北角這個在MIOKO在那個宮古海峽那邊所以我請教部長\n\n32\n00:11:43,064 --> 00:12:07,858\n中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅．會不會形成一種撥洋蔥的方式．把我們重層嚇阻的這一層一層．把你的空間一直往內壓縮．你有沒有感受到這個事情．你們的應處之道是什麼所以他們現在用這個方法．所以我講灰色不光地帶．很多事件配合他的三戰．不管是心理、輿論跟法律．看來他一步一步．但對我們國際來講的話．\n\n33\n00:12:09,659 --> 00:12:25,790\n我應該也講的不管是蠔豬也好或洋蔥也好我們最外層皮就已經在那個線上了沒有讓他一層層這樣撥的空間我們也不容許他你現在講是沒有讓他撥的空間因為我還有一個題目要問我希望國防部\n\n34\n00:12:26,630 --> 00:12:50,430\n具體提出每一層每一層怎麼守住洋蔥被剝掉了要再推回去很難我了解我跟委員報告我們現在在做每一年不管是任何演訓也就炒出來有什麼狀況我怎麼處理應變的時間跟應變的方法跟應變的距離對安全很重要對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要我最後請教你無人機防禦系統\n\n35\n00:12:53,117 --> 00:12:54,502\n我看到你們現在提出一個什麼9億要採購\n\n36\n00:12:58,184 --> 00:13:18,142\n遙控無人機防禦系統這個大概就是上次烈雨發生那個事件之後我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統對不對我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統我們發現我們那個標案有問題你們也拉下來重來了本席現在好奇要請問你們回覆本席這邊說是9億後來媒體報導你要買26套你們現在是計劃用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎\n\n37\n00:13:24,608 --> 00:13:26,530\n這個有列入到預算書表是113、114兩個年度是9億8900多萬由陸軍統建採購26套\n\n38\n00:13:43,530 --> 00:14:01,181\n我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統要整合在一起嘛那因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起所以我們弄了兩個科研案然後被我們點出來荒謬的地方是你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做\n\n39\n00:14:01,761 --> 00:14:16,835\n他就是不會做你還讓他一家做兩套一次要買兩套後來這個案子部長才是拉下來了我現在好奇的是這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC被動雷達測試POC干擾測試你們變成單項測試有這樣子嗎\n\n40\n00:14:23,444 --> 00:14:43,774\n報告委員,這個POC這個所謂的概念性的測試,它就是為了確保……概念性驗證嗎?對,概念驗證。它就是為了確保國內廠商有這個整合……整合好的系統做POC,還是單向單向做POC?它是整個組合起來的,不是單向單向。對,你如果單向單向的話我就要質疑你們了。它就是個實體。\n\n41\n00:14:44,855 --> 00:14:48,020\n實體要直接結合我們作案場景來驗證是整合的,我跟您報告是整合的你們的標案是個案POC還是整合POC?整合POC我們會繼續來觀察你們這個案子,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1359\t27376\t謝謝昭緯,麻煩我們海巡署署長﹖清海巡署周署長﹖以及陸軍參謀長﹖陸軍參謀長委員長兩位早,我們今天有幾個問題要就教於您當然今天新聞已經報導,我看有些東西也說明了在今天早上6點,中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外\n28342\t56667\t翻覆這是人道救援那這個翻覆的話看起來是有五個漁民其中一個人救起來還有四個 六個漁民有一個救起來另外五個失蹤不見了兩個救起兩個四位救起兩個生還兩個已經離難另外有兩個現在還失蹤搜尋中所以總共六個兩個生還兩個不信那另外兩位待搜救\n58008\t63001\t我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援\n63436\t92295\t是,我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知中華搜救是哪邊的單位?是中共當局的一個搜救的單位所以是中國尋求我們這邊協助嗎?中國海事中心通知我們國搜請我們協助嗎?請我們協助,對那我們就出船去協助我們立刻出船這個符合國際慣例,人到救援我們本來就沒有單分的這個也是我們平常日常的工作範圍\n94097\t112449\t這種要求我們協助救援是罕見還是常常遇到?經常遇到我們有個數字我們去年一年是我們近三年有17案119人我們近三年像這樣子他們請求我們支援的就有17案我們救起來了113人\n114130\t114651\t李卓人議員\n129087\t129367\t委員會主席\n145487\t172709\t遇到人道救援今天早上凌晨中國也是要求尋求我們的協助嘛所以現在還有兩位在帶尋求所以其實在執法人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權那天我看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡鼓勵海巡那個分隊長還哽咽我可以體會那種心情因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情\n173309\t189489\t海域被倒採這個沙石形成水域的不安那個水面下水流的問題在澎湖那邊也常遇到所以該執法還是要執法這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者兩個牛打在一起沒有人會想那個叫互毆啦\n190390\t218712\t那個叫做拒捕啊那個叫妨礙公務啊執法者跟違法者真是有身份的差別的人道救援有人道救援的差別的那因為我還有兩個失蹤我接下來要請教陸軍我們在東定島是有駐軍的嘛王老師就在旁邊嘛是的所以這兩個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還不管哪一國的人我們都不希望有人命的損傷那這兩個失蹤可能會有水流的漂流可能會到岸上等等\n220132\t247494\t我們有沒有請東定島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭報告委員這一點剛剛在前面的委員提詢的時候署長已經有報告過了其實整個軍防部、東定島都是藉由這個案記在協助搜索海上的有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象所以目前還沒有收獲什麼島上目前現在有一個\n249175\t277767\tChannel 72就是72號頻道大概156.625MHz這一個無線電頻道這是海事頻道民間已經傳出來了聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求他也是以我要找我們失蹤的漁民希望他們要登東定島來協助搜索這個事情他也把頻道列出來了那個\n280596\t295942\t參謀長有或沒有或不說我都可以尊重有沒有這個事情東定島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求沒有接到這樣的請求這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過東定島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部沒有接收到這樣的\n298303\t320794\t我要提醒參謀長,民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音,所以如果有這樣的聲音是偽造呢?還是我們沒有注意到?因為我剛剛也都有掌握跟查證,我跟委員報告,第一點沒有這樣的需求第二點,在我們的規則上面我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索\n321334\t321714\t兩位請回,我現在請邱部長\n348339\t368429\t報告委員我給您更正一下好不好因為在收救的狀況之下如果對方經由我們海事單位申請許可對他就可以進入到我們的水域我們曾經去年還簽都有我們都有許可過對我們都有許可過那今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下就是說我們國家我們的水域內當然我們來負責你要進來要經過許可\n374572\t393040\t現在我們是聯合在搜救他們在我們縣內的現在有4艘海巡2艘那是許可的狀況我們有4艘那還有2艘海警在縣外所以整個的搜救行動你再講一次他們有4艘他們的公務船在我們的縣內那他有經過申請\n393800\t394020\t李卓人議員\n414910\t443585\t不是只有這一次這樣做我們過去也都是人道救援方面在救生救難方面我們一定是最快的時間這個部分就是說因為之前我知道有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣情形就是我們的水域我們管理我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權但是經由申請許可人道救援我們是可以允許的那這一次就有4艘中國公共船他們提出申請我們許可讓他進來搜救這一艘中國的漁船這樣沒有錯嗎沒錯\n444565\t445085\t兩位請回我接下來請教部長來部長\n464090\t487488\t部長剛才我們從周署長那邊就聽到了他們要進行搜救四艘船也是他們主動提出申請我們許可進到我們的縣內來搜救今天就發生這個事情了中國的國台辦說台灣海峽它有管轄權我不加任何註解是他們今天宣布的我拿辦公室的公文在這裡\n488905\t495391\t你身為我們國家的國防部長,你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法?現在全世界以\n511286\t534188\t看台灣海峽是它有國際水域也有我們的領海的部分就看12海里幾海里那通常緩衝區在20日海里外嘛我們有個緩衝區所以當他講說台灣海峽都有管轄權當然這是一個政治語言啦依照上這個漁船的情形他要進來的時候他還是照規矩申請許可進來守規矩我們誇獎他你就照國際規範來\n535569\t549795\t但他想說台灣海峽他有管轄權我再講一次目前的台灣海峽國際上各國都認定他有國際海域的部分也有我們領海的部分但中國如果這樣講他如果要執行他所謂的管轄權的話\n552470\t569700\t進到我們的接近緩衝帶的時候是由海軍負責還是海巡負責?加州有一個程序,剛才海巡署也講得很清楚它有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責看它是什麼船?對那加州在它講它有這個管轄權那我們有我們的治權\n571267\t585681\t對,我們有我們的主權跟治權對,也有我們的主權我要提醒就是說在灰色地帶他現在都是先打法理戰模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫壓迫的時候有時候他會用他的海警\n586732\t609123\t海監船然後我們這邊就海巡來對應那等到那邊模糊到一個狀態的時候他們的海軍相關的船艦或者他的那個漁政船就會出現了這是他一貫的套路他在菲律賓這樣幹他在越南也這樣幹中國在東海也是這樣做所以當他在模糊化這個管轄權或者無視國際規範的時候我覺得我們在應處的標準作業\n614565\t630933\t可能要好好思考一下這是一個嚴肅的課題不管在軍團裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的做法否則這樣一直壓迫下去呢我就要提一件事情我們到那個崇禎賀祖那一塊\n632301\t659822\t我們從2016年開始我們國家的戰略的基本構想想定是防衛固守重層嚇阻一層一層我們固守之後呢具體的作為是具體筆案所以我們會有一些遠距遙攻精準性的我把它叫做積極性防禦武器包含美方賣給我們的相關的武器射程300公里幾百公里的那個大概就是具體筆案\n661964\t671814\t擊敵海上毀敵水際兼敵灘頭那時候我們常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛大概這整個構想想定是這樣子\n672864\t701923\t但是當你在重層嚇阻我們就像一個洋蔥一樣外國人把它叫做什麼把它取名叫做豪豬戰術其實就像洋蔥一層一層來保護我們的國家2300萬人可是你有沒有發現灰色地帶衝突它是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣一條一塊一塊把你壓迫去除掉金門水域、西南空域、東北角這個在MIOKO在那個宮古海峽那邊所以我請教部長\n703064\t727858\t中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅．會不會形成一種撥洋蔥的方式．把我們重層嚇阻的這一層一層．把你的空間一直往內壓縮．你有沒有感受到這個事情．你們的應處之道是什麼所以他們現在用這個方法．所以我講灰色不光地帶．很多事件配合他的三戰．不管是心理、輿論跟法律．看來他一步一步．但對我們國際來講的話．\n729659\t745790\t我應該也講的不管是蠔豬也好或洋蔥也好我們最外層皮就已經在那個線上了沒有讓他一層層這樣撥的空間我們也不容許他你現在講是沒有讓他撥的空間因為我還有一個題目要問我希望國防部\n746630\t770430\t具體提出每一層每一層怎麼守住洋蔥被剝掉了要再推回去很難我了解我跟委員報告我們現在在做每一年不管是任何演訓也就炒出來有什麼狀況我怎麼處理應變的時間跟應變的方法跟應變的距離對安全很重要對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要我最後請教你無人機防禦系統\n773117\t774502\t我看到你們現在提出一個什麼9億要採購\n778184\t798142\t遙控無人機防禦系統這個大概就是上次烈雨發生那個事件之後我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統對不對我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統我們發現我們那個標案有問題你們也拉下來重來了本席現在好奇要請問你們回覆本席這邊說是9億後來媒體報導你要買26套你們現在是計劃用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎\n804608\t806530\t這個有列入到預算書表是113、114兩個年度是9億8900多萬由陸軍統建採購26套\n823530\t841181\t我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統要整合在一起嘛那因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起所以我們弄了兩個科研案然後被我們點出來荒謬的地方是你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做\n841761\t856835\t他就是不會做你還讓他一家做兩套一次要買兩套後來這個案子部長才是拉下來了我現在好奇的是這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC被動雷達測試POC干擾測試你們變成單項測試有這樣子嗎\n863444\t883774\t報告委員,這個POC這個所謂的概念性的測試,它就是為了確保……概念性驗證嗎?對,概念驗證。它就是為了確保國內廠商有這個整合……整合好的系統做POC,還是單向單向做POC?它是整個組合起來的,不是單向單向。對,你如果單向單向的話我就要質疑你們了。它就是個實體。\n884855\t888020\t實體要直接結合我們作案場景來驗證是整合的,我跟您報告是整合的你們的標案是個案POC還是整合POC?整合POC我們會繼續來觀察你們這個案子,謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝昭緯,麻煩我們海巡署署長﹖清海巡署周署長﹖以及陸軍參謀長﹖陸軍參謀長委員長兩位早,我們今天有幾個問題要就教於您當然今天新聞已經報導,我看有些東西也說明了在今天早上6點,中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外\n翻覆這是人道救援那這個翻覆的話看起來是有五個漁民其中一個人救起來還有四個 六個漁民有一個救起來另外五個失蹤不見了兩個救起兩個四位救起兩個生還兩個已經離難另外有兩個現在還失蹤搜尋中所以總共六個兩個生還兩個不信那另外兩位待搜救\n我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援\n是,我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知中華搜救是哪邊的單位?是中共當局的一個搜救的單位所以是中國尋求我們這邊協助嗎?中國海事中心通知我們國搜請我們協助嗎?請我們協助,對那我們就出船去協助我們立刻出船這個符合國際慣例,人到救援我們本來就沒有單分的這個也是我們平常日常的工作範圍\n這種要求我們協助救援是罕見還是常常遇到?經常遇到我們有個數字我們去年一年是我們近三年有17案119人我們近三年像這樣子他們請求我們支援的就有17案我們救起來了113人\n李卓人議員\n委員會主席\n遇到人道救援今天早上凌晨中國也是要求尋求我們的協助嘛所以現在還有兩位在帶尋求所以其實在執法人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權那天我看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡鼓勵海巡那個分隊長還哽咽我可以體會那種心情因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情\n海域被倒採這個沙石形成水域的不安那個水面下水流的問題在澎湖那邊也常遇到所以該執法還是要執法這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者兩個牛打在一起沒有人會想那個叫互毆啦\n那個叫做拒捕啊那個叫妨礙公務啊執法者跟違法者真是有身份的差別的人道救援有人道救援的差別的那因為我還有兩個失蹤我接下來要請教陸軍我們在東定島是有駐軍的嘛王老師就在旁邊嘛是的所以這兩個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還不管哪一國的人我們都不希望有人命的損傷那這兩個失蹤可能會有水流的漂流可能會到岸上等等\n我們有沒有請東定島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭報告委員這一點剛剛在前面的委員提詢的時候署長已經有報告過了其實整個軍防部、東定島都是藉由這個案記在協助搜索海上的有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象所以目前還沒有收獲什麼島上目前現在有一個\nChannel 72就是72號頻道大概156.625MHz這一個無線電頻道這是海事頻道民間已經傳出來了聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求他也是以我要找我們失蹤的漁民希望他們要登東定島來協助搜索這個事情他也把頻道列出來了那個\n參謀長有或沒有或不說我都可以尊重有沒有這個事情東定島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求沒有接到這樣的請求這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過東定島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部沒有接收到這樣的\n我要提醒參謀長,民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音,所以如果有這樣的聲音是偽造呢?還是我們沒有注意到?因為我剛剛也都有掌握跟查證,我跟委員報告,第一點沒有這樣的需求第二點,在我們的規則上面我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索\n兩位請回,我現在請邱部長\n報告委員我給您更正一下好不好因為在收救的狀況之下如果對方經由我們海事單位申請許可對他就可以進入到我們的水域我們曾經去年還簽都有我們都有許可過對我們都有許可過那今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下就是說我們國家我們的水域內當然我們來負責你要進來要經過許可\n現在我們是聯合在搜救他們在我們縣內的現在有4艘海巡2艘那是許可的狀況我們有4艘那還有2艘海警在縣外所以整個的搜救行動你再講一次他們有4艘他們的公務船在我們的縣內那他有經過申請\n李卓人議員\n不是只有這一次這樣做我們過去也都是人道救援方面在救生救難方面我們一定是最快的時間這個部分就是說因為之前我知道有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣情形就是我們的水域我們管理我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權但是經由申請許可人道救援我們是可以允許的那這一次就有4艘中國公共船他們提出申請我們許可讓他進來搜救這一艘中國的漁船這樣沒有錯嗎沒錯\n兩位請回我接下來請教部長來部長\n部長剛才我們從周署長那邊就聽到了他們要進行搜救四艘船也是他們主動提出申請我們許可進到我們的縣內來搜救今天就發生這個事情了中國的國台辦說台灣海峽它有管轄權我不加任何註解是他們今天宣布的我拿辦公室的公文在這裡\n你身為我們國家的國防部長,你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法?現在全世界以\n看台灣海峽是它有國際水域也有我們的領海的部分就看12海里幾海里那通常緩衝區在20日海里外嘛我們有個緩衝區所以當他講說台灣海峽都有管轄權當然這是一個政治語言啦依照上這個漁船的情形他要進來的時候他還是照規矩申請許可進來守規矩我們誇獎他你就照國際規範來\n但他想說台灣海峽他有管轄權我再講一次目前的台灣海峽國際上各國都認定他有國際海域的部分也有我們領海的部分但中國如果這樣講他如果要執行他所謂的管轄權的話\n進到我們的接近緩衝帶的時候是由海軍負責還是海巡負責?加州有一個程序,剛才海巡署也講得很清楚它有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責看它是什麼船?對那加州在它講它有這個管轄權那我們有我們的治權\n對,我們有我們的主權跟治權對,也有我們的主權我要提醒就是說在灰色地帶他現在都是先打法理戰模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫壓迫的時候有時候他會用他的海警\n海監船然後我們這邊就海巡來對應那等到那邊模糊到一個狀態的時候他們的海軍相關的船艦或者他的那個漁政船就會出現了這是他一貫的套路他在菲律賓這樣幹他在越南也這樣幹中國在東海也是這樣做所以當他在模糊化這個管轄權或者無視國際規範的時候我覺得我們在應處的標準作業\n可能要好好思考一下這是一個嚴肅的課題不管在軍團裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的做法否則這樣一直壓迫下去呢我就要提一件事情我們到那個崇禎賀祖那一塊\n我們從2016年開始我們國家的戰略的基本構想想定是防衛固守重層嚇阻一層一層我們固守之後呢具體的作為是具體筆案所以我們會有一些遠距遙攻精準性的我把它叫做積極性防禦武器包含美方賣給我們的相關的武器射程300公里幾百公里的那個大概就是具體筆案\n擊敵海上毀敵水際兼敵灘頭那時候我們常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛大概這整個構想想定是這樣子\n但是當你在重層嚇阻我們就像一個洋蔥一樣外國人把它叫做什麼把它取名叫做豪豬戰術其實就像洋蔥一層一層來保護我們的國家2300萬人可是你有沒有發現灰色地帶衝突它是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣一條一塊一塊把你壓迫去除掉金門水域、西南空域、東北角這個在MIOKO在那個宮古海峽那邊所以我請教部長\n中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅．會不會形成一種撥洋蔥的方式．把我們重層嚇阻的這一層一層．把你的空間一直往內壓縮．你有沒有感受到這個事情．你們的應處之道是什麼所以他們現在用這個方法．所以我講灰色不光地帶．很多事件配合他的三戰．不管是心理、輿論跟法律．看來他一步一步．但對我們國際來講的話．\n我應該也講的不管是蠔豬也好或洋蔥也好我們最外層皮就已經在那個線上了沒有讓他一層層這樣撥的空間我們也不容許他你現在講是沒有讓他撥的空間因為我還有一個題目要問我希望國防部\n具體提出每一層每一層怎麼守住洋蔥被剝掉了要再推回去很難我了解我跟委員報告我們現在在做每一年不管是任何演訓也就炒出來有什麼狀況我怎麼處理應變的時間跟應變的方法跟應變的距離對安全很重要對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要我最後請教你無人機防禦系統\n我看到你們現在提出一個什麼9億要採購\n遙控無人機防禦系統這個大概就是上次烈雨發生那個事件之後我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統對不對我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統我們發現我們那個標案有問題你們也拉下來重來了本席現在好奇要請問你們回覆本席這邊說是9億後來媒體報導你要買26套你們現在是計劃用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎\n這個有列入到預算書表是113、114兩個年度是9億8900多萬由陸軍統建採購26套\n我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統要整合在一起嘛那因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起所以我們弄了兩個科研案然後被我們點出來荒謬的地方是你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做\n他就是不會做你還讓他一家做兩套一次要買兩套後來這個案子部長才是拉下來了我現在好奇的是這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC被動雷達測試POC干擾測試你們變成單項測試有這樣子嗎\n報告委員,這個POC這個所謂的概念性的測試,它就是為了確保……概念性驗證嗎?對,概念驗證。它就是為了確保國內廠商有這個整合……整合好的系統做POC,還是單向單向做POC?它是整個組合起來的,不是單向單向。對,你如果單向單向的話我就要質疑你們了。它就是個實體。\n實體要直接結合我們作案場景來驗證是整合的,我跟您報告是整合的你們的標案是個案POC還是整合POC?整合POC我們會繼續來觀察你們這個案子,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.359 --> 00:27.376\n謝謝昭緯,麻煩我們海巡署署長﹖清海巡署周署長﹖以及陸軍參謀長﹖陸軍參謀長委員長兩位早,我們今天有幾個問題要就教於您當然今天新聞已經報導,我看有些東西也說明了在今天早上6點,中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外\n\n00:28.342 --> 00:56.667\n翻覆這是人道救援那這個翻覆的話看起來是有五個漁民其中一個人救起來還有四個六個漁民有一個救起來另外五個失蹤不見了兩個救起兩個四位救起兩個生還兩個已經離難另外有兩個現在還失蹤搜尋中所以總共六個兩個生還兩個不信那另外兩位待搜救\n\n00:58.008 --> 01:03.001\n我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援\n\n01:03.436 --> 01:32.295\n是,我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知中華搜救是哪邊的單位?是中共當局的一個搜救的單位所以是中國尋求我們這邊協助嗎?中國海事中心通知我們國搜請我們協助嗎?請我們協助,對那我們就出船去協助我們立刻出船這個符合國際慣例,人到救援我們本來就沒有單分的這個也是我們平常日常的工作範圍\n\n01:34.097 --> 01:52.449\n這種要求我們協助救援是罕見還是常常遇到?經常遇到我們有個數字我們去年一年是我們近三年有17案119人我們近三年像這樣子他們請求我們支援的就有17案我們救起來了113人\n\n01:54.130 --> 01:54.651\n李卓人議員\n\n02:09.087 --> 02:09.367\n委員會主席\n\n02:25.487 --> 02:52.709\n遇到人道救援今天早上凌晨中國也是要求尋求我們的協助嘛所以現在還有兩位在帶尋求所以其實在執法人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權那天我看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡鼓勵海巡那個分隊長還哽咽我可以體會那種心情因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情\n\n02:53.309 --> 03:09.489\n海域被倒採這個沙石形成水域的不安那個水面下水流的問題在澎湖那邊也常遇到所以該執法還是要執法這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者兩個牛打在一起沒有人會想那個叫互毆啦\n\n03:10.390 --> 03:38.712\n那個叫做拒捕啊那個叫妨礙公務啊執法者跟違法者真是有身份的差別的人道救援有人道救援的差別的那因為我還有兩個失蹤我接下來要請教陸軍我們在東定島是有駐軍的嘛王老師就在旁邊嘛是的所以這兩個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還不管哪一國的人我們都不希望有人命的損傷那這兩個失蹤可能會有水流的漂流可能會到岸上等等\n\n03:40.132 --> 04:07.494\n我們有沒有請東定島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭報告委員這一點剛剛在前面的委員提詢的時候署長已經有報告過了其實整個軍防部、東定島都是藉由這個案記在協助搜索海上的有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象所以目前還沒有收獲什麼島上目前現在有一個\n\n04:09.175 --> 04:37.767\nChannel72就是72號頻道大概156.625MHz這一個無線電頻道這是海事頻道民間已經傳出來了聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求他也是以我要找我們失蹤的漁民希望他們要登東定島來協助搜索這個事情他也把頻道列出來了那個\n\n04:40.596 --> 04:55.942\n參謀長有或沒有或不說我都可以尊重有沒有這個事情東定島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求沒有接到這樣的請求這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過東定島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部沒有接收到這樣的\n\n04:58.303 --> 05:20.794\n我要提醒參謀長,民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音,所以如果有這樣的聲音是偽造呢?還是我們沒有注意到?因為我剛剛也都有掌握跟查證,我跟委員報告,第一點沒有這樣的需求第二點,在我們的規則上面我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索\n\n05:21.334 --> 05:21.714\n兩位請回,我現在請邱部長\n\n05:48.339 --> 06:08.429\n報告委員我給您更正一下好不好因為在收救的狀況之下如果對方經由我們海事單位申請許可對他就可以進入到我們的水域我們曾經去年還簽都有我們都有許可過對我們都有許可過那今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下就是說我們國家我們的水域內當然我們來負責你要進來要經過許可\n\n06:14.572 --> 06:33.040\n現在我們是聯合在搜救他們在我們縣內的現在有4艘海巡2艘那是許可的狀況我們有4艘那還有2艘海警在縣外所以整個的搜救行動你再講一次他們有4艘他們的公務船在我們的縣內那他有經過申請\n\n06:33.800 --> 06:34.020\n李卓人議員\n\n06:54.910 --> 07:23.585\n不是只有這一次這樣做我們過去也都是人道救援方面在救生救難方面我們一定是最快的時間這個部分就是說因為之前我知道有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣情形就是我們的水域我們管理我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權但是經由申請許可人道救援我們是可以允許的那這一次就有4艘中國公共船他們提出申請我們許可讓他進來搜救這一艘中國的漁船這樣沒有錯嗎沒錯\n\n07:24.565 --> 07:25.085\n兩位請回我接下來請教部長來部長\n\n07:44.090 --> 08:07.488\n部長剛才我們從周署長那邊就聽到了他們要進行搜救四艘船也是他們主動提出申請我們許可進到我們的縣內來搜救今天就發生這個事情了中國的國台辦說台灣海峽它有管轄權我不加任何註解是他們今天宣布的我拿辦公室的公文在這裡\n\n08:08.905 --> 08:15.391\n你身為我們國家的國防部長,你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法?現在全世界以\n\n08:31.286 --> 08:54.188\n看台灣海峽是它有國際水域也有我們的領海的部分就看12海里幾海里那通常緩衝區在20日海里外嘛我們有個緩衝區所以當他講說台灣海峽都有管轄權當然這是一個政治語言啦依照上這個漁船的情形他要進來的時候他還是照規矩申請許可進來守規矩我們誇獎他你就照國際規範來\n\n08:55.569 --> 09:09.795\n但他想說台灣海峽他有管轄權我再講一次目前的台灣海峽國際上各國都認定他有國際海域的部分也有我們領海的部分但中國如果這樣講他如果要執行他所謂的管轄權的話\n\n09:12.470 --> 09:29.700\n進到我們的接近緩衝帶的時候是由海軍負責還是海巡負責?加州有一個程序,剛才海巡署也講得很清楚它有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責看它是什麼船?對那加州在它講它有這個管轄權那我們有我們的治權\n\n09:31.267 --> 09:45.681\n對,我們有我們的主權跟治權對,也有我們的主權我要提醒就是說在灰色地帶他現在都是先打法理戰模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫壓迫的時候有時候他會用他的海警\n\n09:46.732 --> 10:09.123\n海監船然後我們這邊就海巡來對應那等到那邊模糊到一個狀態的時候他們的海軍相關的船艦或者他的那個漁政船就會出現了這是他一貫的套路他在菲律賓這樣幹他在越南也這樣幹中國在東海也是這樣做所以當他在模糊化這個管轄權或者無視國際規範的時候我覺得我們在應處的標準作業\n\n10:14.565 --> 10:30.933\n可能要好好思考一下這是一個嚴肅的課題不管在軍團裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的做法否則這樣一直壓迫下去呢我就要提一件事情我們到那個崇禎賀祖那一塊\n\n10:32.301 --> 10:59.822\n我們從2016年開始我們國家的戰略的基本構想想定是防衛固守重層嚇阻一層一層我們固守之後呢具體的作為是具體筆案所以我們會有一些遠距遙攻精準性的我把它叫做積極性防禦武器包含美方賣給我們的相關的武器射程300公里幾百公里的那個大概就是具體筆案\n\n11:01.964 --> 11:11.814\n擊敵海上毀敵水際兼敵灘頭那時候我們常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛大概這整個構想想定是這樣子\n\n11:12.864 --> 11:41.923\n但是當你在重層嚇阻我們就像一個洋蔥一樣外國人把它叫做什麼把它取名叫做豪豬戰術其實就像洋蔥一層一層來保護我們的國家2300萬人可是你有沒有發現灰色地帶衝突它是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣一條一塊一塊把你壓迫去除掉金門水域、西南空域、東北角這個在MIOKO在那個宮古海峽那邊所以我請教部長\n\n11:43.064 --> 12:07.858\n中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅．會不會形成一種撥洋蔥的方式．把我們重層嚇阻的這一層一層．把你的空間一直往內壓縮．你有沒有感受到這個事情．你們的應處之道是什麼所以他們現在用這個方法．所以我講灰色不光地帶．很多事件配合他的三戰．不管是心理、輿論跟法律．看來他一步一步．但對我們國際來講的話．\n\n12:09.659 --> 12:25.790\n我應該也講的不管是蠔豬也好或洋蔥也好我們最外層皮就已經在那個線上了沒有讓他一層層這樣撥的空間我們也不容許他你現在講是沒有讓他撥的空間因為我還有一個題目要問我希望國防部\n\n12:26.630 --> 12:50.430\n具體提出每一層每一層怎麼守住洋蔥被剝掉了要再推回去很難我了解我跟委員報告我們現在在做每一年不管是任何演訓也就炒出來有什麼狀況我怎麼處理應變的時間跟應變的方法跟應變的距離對安全很重要對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要我最後請教你無人機防禦系統\n\n12:53.117 --> 12:54.502\n我看到你們現在提出一個什麼9億要採購\n\n12:58.184 --> 13:18.142\n遙控無人機防禦系統這個大概就是上次烈雨發生那個事件之後我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統對不對我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統我們發現我們那個標案有問題你們也拉下來重來了本席現在好奇要請問你們回覆本席這邊說是9億後來媒體報導你要買26套你們現在是計劃用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎\n\n13:24.608 --> 13:26.530\n這個有列入到預算書表是113、114兩個年度是9億8900多萬由陸軍統建採購26套\n\n13:43.530 --> 14:01.181\n我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統要整合在一起嘛那因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起所以我們弄了兩個科研案然後被我們點出來荒謬的地方是你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做\n\n14:01.761 --> 14:16.835\n他就是不會做你還讓他一家做兩套一次要買兩套後來這個案子部長才是拉下來了我現在好奇的是這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC被動雷達測試POC干擾測試你們變成單項測試有這樣子嗎\n\n14:23.444 --> 14:43.774\n報告委員,這個POC這個所謂的概念性的測試,它就是為了確保……概念性驗證嗎?對,概念驗證。它就是為了確保國內廠商有這個整合……整合好的系統做POC,還是單向單向做POC?它是整個組合起來的,不是單向單向。對,你如果單向單向的話我就要質疑你們了。它就是個實體。\n\n14:44.855 --> 14:48.020\n實體要直接結合我們作案場景來驗證是整合的,我跟您報告是整合的你們的標案是個案POC還是整合POC?整合POC我們會繼續來觀察你們這個案子,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.359,"end":27.376,"text":"謝謝昭緯,麻煩我們海巡署署長﹖清海巡署周署長﹖以及陸軍參謀長﹖陸軍參謀長委員長兩位早,我們今天有幾個問題要就教於您當然今天新聞已經報導,我看有些東西也說明了在今天早上6點,中國有一艘漁船在我們的海域外"},{"start":28.342,"end":56.667,"text":"翻覆這是人道救援那這個翻覆的話看起來是有五個漁民其中一個人救起來還有四個 六個漁民有一個救起來另外五個失蹤不見了兩個救起兩個四位救起兩個生還兩個已經離難另外有兩個現在還失蹤搜尋中所以總共六個兩個生還兩個不信那另外兩位待搜救"},{"start":58.008,"end":63.001,"text":"我看到我們海巡是有出船去協助人道救援"},{"start":63.436,"end":92.295,"text":"是,我們今天早上6點2分的時候接到國搜中心轉中華搜救的通知中華搜救是哪邊的單位?是中共當局的一個搜救的單位所以是中國尋求我們這邊協助嗎?中國海事中心通知我們國搜請我們協助嗎?請我們協助,對那我們就出船去協助我們立刻出船這個符合國際慣例,人到救援我們本來就沒有單分的這個也是我們平常日常的工作範圍"},{"start":94.097,"end":112.449,"text":"這種要求我們協助救援是罕見還是常常遇到?經常遇到我們有個數字我們去年一年是我們近三年有17案119人我們近三年像這樣子他們請求我們支援的就有17案我們救起來了113人"},{"start":114.13,"end":114.651,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":129.087,"end":129.367,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":145.487,"end":172.709,"text":"遇到人道救援今天早上凌晨中國也是要求尋求我們的協助嘛所以現在還有兩位在帶尋求所以其實在執法人道救援跟取締非法之間其實清清楚楚這邊還牽涉到我們國家漁民的漁權那天我看到我們漁會的人去謝謝海巡鼓勵海巡那個分隊長還哽咽我可以體會那種心情因為漁民的漁權被侵害是經常發生的事情"},{"start":173.309,"end":189.489,"text":"海域被倒採這個沙石形成水域的不安那個水面下水流的問題在澎湖那邊也常遇到所以該執法還是要執法這個執法跟非法者就像警察在追違法者兩個牛打在一起沒有人會想那個叫互毆啦"},{"start":190.39,"end":218.712,"text":"那個叫做拒捕啊那個叫妨礙公務啊執法者跟違法者真是有身份的差別的人道救援有人道救援的差別的那因為我還有兩個失蹤我接下來要請教陸軍我們在東定島是有駐軍的嘛王老師就在旁邊嘛是的所以這兩個失蹤我們當然希望能夠生還不管哪一國的人我們都不希望有人命的損傷那這兩個失蹤可能會有水流的漂流可能會到岸上等等"},{"start":220.132,"end":247.494,"text":"我們有沒有請東定島的守軍注意一下水面上跟灘頭報告委員這一點剛剛在前面的委員提詢的時候署長已經有報告過了其實整個軍防部、東定島都是藉由這個案記在協助搜索海上的有無生還者或是任何可疑的跡象所以目前還沒有收獲什麼島上目前現在有一個"},{"start":249.175,"end":277.767,"text":"Channel 72就是72號頻道大概156.625MHz這一個無線電頻道這是海事頻道民間已經傳出來了聽到中共共軍或者中國方面要求他也是以我要找我們失蹤的漁民希望他們要登東定島來協助搜索這個事情他也把頻道列出來了那個"},{"start":280.596,"end":295.942,"text":"參謀長有或沒有或不說我都可以尊重有沒有這個事情東定島跟金防部沒有接到這樣的需求沒有接到這樣的請求這個無線電的訊號內容有沒有聽過東定島本身的駐軍跟金門防衛指揮部沒有接收到這樣的"},{"start":298.303,"end":320.794,"text":"我要提醒參謀長,民間在聽這些頻道的人都會錄音,所以如果有這樣的聲音是偽造呢?還是我們沒有注意到?因為我剛剛也都有掌握跟查證,我跟委員報告,第一點沒有這樣的需求第二點,在我們的規則上面我們也不會允許共軍登島搜索"},{"start":321.334,"end":321.714,"text":"兩位請回,我現在請邱部長"},{"start":348.339,"end":368.429,"text":"報告委員我給您更正一下好不好因為在收救的狀況之下如果對方經由我們海事單位申請許可對他就可以進入到我們的水域我們曾經去年還簽都有我們都有許可過對我們都有許可過那今天早上也是在許可的狀況之下就是說我們國家我們的水域內當然我們來負責你要進來要經過許可"},{"start":374.572,"end":393.04,"text":"現在我們是聯合在搜救他們在我們縣內的現在有4艘海巡2艘那是許可的狀況我們有4艘那還有2艘海警在縣外所以整個的搜救行動你再講一次他們有4艘他們的公務船在我們的縣內那他有經過申請"},{"start":393.8,"end":394.02,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":414.91,"end":443.585,"text":"不是只有這一次這樣做我們過去也都是人道救援方面在救生救難方面我們一定是最快的時間這個部分就是說因為之前我知道有一次直升機掉下來有類似這樣情形就是我們的水域我們管理我們的水域是我們的法權跟我們的主權但是經由申請許可人道救援我們是可以允許的那這一次就有4艘中國公共船他們提出申請我們許可讓他進來搜救這一艘中國的漁船這樣沒有錯嗎沒錯"},{"start":444.565,"end":445.085,"text":"兩位請回我接下來請教部長來部長"},{"start":464.09,"end":487.488,"text":"部長剛才我們從周署長那邊就聽到了他們要進行搜救四艘船也是他們主動提出申請我們許可進到我們的縣內來搜救今天就發生這個事情了中國的國台辦說台灣海峽它有管轄權我不加任何註解是他們今天宣布的我拿辦公室的公文在這裡"},{"start":488.905,"end":495.391,"text":"你身為我們國家的國防部長,你對他們這樣的說法有什麼樣的想法?現在全世界以"},{"start":511.286,"end":534.188,"text":"看台灣海峽是它有國際水域也有我們的領海的部分就看12海里幾海里那通常緩衝區在20日海里外嘛我們有個緩衝區所以當他講說台灣海峽都有管轄權當然這是一個政治語言啦依照上這個漁船的情形他要進來的時候他還是照規矩申請許可進來守規矩我們誇獎他你就照國際規範來"},{"start":535.569,"end":549.795,"text":"但他想說台灣海峽他有管轄權我再講一次目前的台灣海峽國際上各國都認定他有國際海域的部分也有我們領海的部分但中國如果這樣講他如果要執行他所謂的管轄權的話"},{"start":552.47,"end":569.7,"text":"進到我們的接近緩衝帶的時候是由海軍負責還是海巡負責?加州有一個程序,剛才海巡署也講得很清楚它有軍事動作的話一定是海軍來負責看它是什麼船?對那加州在它講它有這個管轄權那我們有我們的治權"},{"start":571.267,"end":585.681,"text":"對,我們有我們的主權跟治權對,也有我們的主權我要提醒就是說在灰色地帶他現在都是先打法理戰模糊了之後就進行灰色地帶壓迫壓迫的時候有時候他會用他的海警"},{"start":586.732,"end":609.123,"text":"海監船然後我們這邊就海巡來對應那等到那邊模糊到一個狀態的時候他們的海軍相關的船艦或者他的那個漁政船就會出現了這是他一貫的套路他在菲律賓這樣幹他在越南也這樣幹中國在東海也是這樣做所以當他在模糊化這個管轄權或者無視國際規範的時候我覺得我們在應處的標準作業"},{"start":614.565,"end":630.933,"text":"可能要好好思考一下這是一個嚴肅的課題不管在軍團裡面討論或者是海巡跟我們的海軍要討論出一個應處的做法否則這樣一直壓迫下去呢我就要提一件事情我們到那個崇禎賀祖那一塊"},{"start":632.301,"end":659.822,"text":"我們從2016年開始我們國家的戰略的基本構想想定是防衛固守重層嚇阻一層一層我們固守之後呢具體的作為是具體筆案所以我們會有一些遠距遙攻精準性的我把它叫做積極性防禦武器包含美方賣給我們的相關的武器射程300公里幾百公里的那個大概就是具體筆案"},{"start":661.964,"end":671.814,"text":"擊敵海上毀敵水際兼敵灘頭那時候我們常講後面有一句叫做國土防衛大概這整個構想想定是這樣子"},{"start":672.864,"end":701.923,"text":"但是當你在重層嚇阻我們就像一個洋蔥一樣外國人把它叫做什麼把它取名叫做豪豬戰術其實就像洋蔥一層一層來保護我們的國家2300萬人可是你有沒有發現灰色地帶衝突它是反過來像在剝洋蔥一樣一條一塊一塊把你壓迫去除掉金門水域、西南空域、東北角這個在MIOKO在那個宮古海峽那邊所以我請教部長"},{"start":703.064,"end":727.858,"text":"中國的灰色地帶衝突威脅．會不會形成一種撥洋蔥的方式．把我們重層嚇阻的這一層一層．把你的空間一直往內壓縮．你有沒有感受到這個事情．你們的應處之道是什麼所以他們現在用這個方法．所以我講灰色不光地帶．很多事件配合他的三戰．不管是心理、輿論跟法律．看來他一步一步．但對我們國際來講的話．"},{"start":729.659,"end":745.79,"text":"我應該也講的不管是蠔豬也好或洋蔥也好我們最外層皮就已經在那個線上了沒有讓他一層層這樣撥的空間我們也不容許他你現在講是沒有讓他撥的空間因為我還有一個題目要問我希望國防部"},{"start":746.63,"end":770.43,"text":"具體提出每一層每一層怎麼守住洋蔥被剝掉了要再推回去很難我了解我跟委員報告我們現在在做每一年不管是任何演訓也就炒出來有什麼狀況我怎麼處理應變的時間跟應變的方法跟應變的距離對安全很重要對各國來注意這邊的局勢也很重要我最後請教你無人機防禦系統"},{"start":773.117,"end":774.502,"text":"我看到你們現在提出一個什麼9億要採購"},{"start":778.184,"end":798.142,"text":"遙控無人機防禦系統這個大概就是上次烈雨發生那個事件之後我們各離島基地要建構這個防禦系統對不對我們在上一屆的最後一個會期有針對這個系統我們發現我們那個標案有問題你們也拉下來重來了本席現在好奇要請問你們回覆本席這邊說是9億後來媒體報導你要買26套你們現在是計劃用9億來添購26套防禦系統嗎"},{"start":804.608,"end":806.53,"text":"這個有列入到預算書表是113、114兩個年度是9億8900多萬由陸軍統建採購26套"},{"start":823.53,"end":841.181,"text":"我們當時為什麼會有一個科研整合案因為要把主被動雷達以及攔截它的干擾系統要整合在一起嘛那因為國內沒有業者會整合在一起所以我們弄了兩個科研案然後被我們點出來荒謬的地方是你們竟然讓兩個科研案同時讓一家做"},{"start":841.761,"end":856.835,"text":"他就是不會做你還讓他一家做兩套一次要買兩套後來這個案子部長才是拉下來了我現在好奇的是這個整合的POC測試應該是系統整合後的測試可是你們這個採購案怎麼變成主動雷達測試POC被動雷達測試POC干擾測試你們變成單項測試有這樣子嗎"},{"start":863.444,"end":883.774,"text":"報告委員,這個POC這個所謂的概念性的測試,它就是為了確保……概念性驗證嗎?對,概念驗證。它就是為了確保國內廠商有這個整合……整合好的系統做POC,還是單向單向做POC?它是整個組合起來的,不是單向單向。對,你如果單向單向的話我就要質疑你們了。它就是個實體。"},{"start":884.855,"end":888.02,"text":"實體要直接結合我們作案場景來驗證是整合的,我跟您報告是整合的你們的標案是個案POC還是整合POC?整合POC我們會繼續來觀察你們這個案子,謝謝"}]}}}}