{"id":149880,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231351a00edb74a9225f0836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a66a34765b9d30d1a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:05:39 - 11:16:00","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":621,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:16:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:05:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":621,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時5分）謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳委員春城：主委好。"],["吳主任委員政忠：吳委員早。"],["吳委員春城：是，上次跟你聊天聊得很開心。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我上了一課。"],["吳委員春城：我們繼續討論。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：我想國科會代表國家的智庫，引領國家發展的方向，主委就形同是一代宗師，地位非常崇高，我也非常尊敬。那我要請問主委，我個人的看法，我覺得往前30年，臺灣最重要的事情是民主化，你認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：當然，這個很重要。"],["吳委員春城：那往後30年，你覺得最重要的事情是什麼？"],["吳主任委員政忠：還是民主。"],["吳委員春城：臺灣現在民主已經很成功了，權力都在人民的手上了，好不好？權力都在人民，人民作主，毫無問題。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["吳委員春城：往後30年最重要的是人口學的問題。"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。"],["吳委員春城：臺灣有最嚴重的人口變化，高齡化跟少子化都是全世界第一名，最快的，那這個你認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：認同。"],["吳委員春城：你認同？"],["吳主任委員政忠：真的是蠻重要的事。"],["吳委員春城：我們也稱為國安問題嘛！很重要。我剛看了今天報告的高齡產業，而且最近看國科會有記者會，就是高齡科技產業的一個行動記者會，發布未來4年當中要投入95億，然後整合8大部會，帶動我們高齡產業3,000億。這是非常好的事情，但是不只3,000億，3,000億已經是十幾年前工研院在說的了，後來就沒有了。聯合國說21世紀最大的經濟動能就是長壽經濟帶動的經濟，未來臺灣一半的人口都會是由高齡者所組成的社會，這樣的經濟就是我們的未來，然後一代宗師要引領我們看見這個。但是老實講，我看現在的內容當中沒有這些內容，主委是帶路的人、帶頭的人，8大部會都跟著你，如果走錯路的話，這個問題會很嚴重，所以我今天就想要跟你一起來討論這個問題。這是行政院超高齡社會對策的大綱，主委你看一下，你覺得幾歲算老人？幾歲算老人？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我……"],["吳委員春城：你？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我超過65了。"],["吳委員春城：你超過65了，所以你算老人嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：基本上以前的定義是65歲以上就是老人，但是這個不符合目前的現狀。"],["吳委員春城：我們政府定義中高齡是指幾歲？45歲啦！你會不會覺得有點離譜？從國外讀書回來都已經快40歲了，然後工作沒幾年就已經變中高齡了，待退。"],["吳主任委員政忠：這的確，我們壽命的延長……"],["吳委員春城：就是我們政府對年齡的認知是一片混亂……"],["吳主任委員政忠：我跟委員報告，因為聯合國他們也是這樣定義的……"],["吳委員春城：但是臺灣是世界最嚴重的，而且是速度最快的，其實我們不要跟著美國走，美國永遠是一個年輕社會，他們是一個移民社會，他們高齡問題不嚴重，臺灣的高齡問題非常嚴重，好不好？"],["吳主任委員政忠：瞭解。"],["吳委員春城：所以不要都說國際怎麼樣，我們就跟著怎麼樣，我們要走我們自己的路，好不好？我們看現在行政院的這個大綱，這個是要提供你服務的，因為基本上你是符合這個需求的人，你看一看哪一些是你想要的？你要長照嗎？你有無障礙休閒需求嗎？你有老人憂鬱症嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我現在都沒有用啦。"],["吳委員春城：你有生死學的需求嗎？你有預立遺囑的需求嗎？你們全部提出來的大綱就是這個，不是老病就是醫療、就是壽命、就是照顧嘛！這個就是行政院對高齡社會的想像嘛！國科會就是這個計畫的規劃者嘛！去年召開高齡科技產業策略會議，這個就是最後的願景，最後的願景文字很多，大家不用看了，就看那個圖就知道了，你們想像未來希望幸福的老人就是這個圖嘛！對不對？安心、舒適、成就、富足，安養晚年，這個就是我們政府對銀髮思維的想像嗎？你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎？一半的人口是要長這個樣子嗎？這就是行政院……這很嚴重喔！因為你們在主導，因為政府的想像，主導……","普惠科技，就是那一份計畫書，那一場會議當中的大綱，所有裡面的名詞，有些好像取得蠻好聽的，包括我在看今天的報告，也有高齡科技、高齡產業的問題，但是我沒有看到內容，只有口號而已，像提升社會參與，我沒有看到你們有提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫。然後裡面的內容，老人就是繞著醫院、養老院、藥局、公園、樂齡宅、樂齡大學、社區文藝中心，你們的場域大概都是繞著這些地方在跑，這個就是錯誤的人設，整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是銀髮……簡單來講就是銀髮思維，銀髮思維就是黃色這一邊，臺灣平均臥床8點多年，已經快到9年了，我們的目標就是要讓他好好的臥床，對不對？臥床舒服一點，這就是高齡科技的目標。然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院，就是要去醫院的路上，然後他是被照顧的，所以他需要的是被照顧，他是社會的負債、年輕人的負擔，這個就是我們現在看到政府所有的政策當中對高齡者的人設，你要服務這樣子的人，但是我告訴你，時代已經不是這樣子。","北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該是兩個禮拜、兩週，我們搞到快9年，如果兩週那就是不需要，因為兩週很快，他們的產業都不需要服務臥床，整個產業是要讓他過壯世代美好的第三人生，所有的政策是為這個而設置，而我們不是在做這個，我們是要讓他好好臥床，你看這個影響有多大？馬斯洛的……"],["吳主任委員政忠：我們應該沒有叫他好好臥床。"],["吳委員春城：對啊！你沒有叫他臥床啦！但是這個政策的方向，我現在老實講，我看到整個的方式、政策都是銀髮思維，行政院的都是銀髮思維，而國科會扮演非常重要的角色，因為你在帶路，所以你要趕快把它帶回來，我拜託主委趕快把它帶回來，帶到一條正確的路線。"],["吳主任委員政忠：委員的這個觀念我是認同，就是65歲到90歲，依照不同的年齡層，事實上不要把他認為是老的，這個是正確的。"],["吳委員春城：我們現在其實不是反對那一塊，那一塊只占老人人口的15%而已，有85%「沐沐泅」，沒人在管他們，臺灣現在平均是60.3歲退休，60歲以上有多少人？有600萬人。"],["吳主任委員政忠：我知道。"],["吳委員春城：退休以後在幹什麼？沒有政策，沒有產業，「沐沐泅」自生自滅，各憑本事，人數這麼龐大且這不是這樣子而已，這會越來越多，2034年以後臺灣有一半人會超過50歲，未來臺灣是高齡社會，我們都沒有在告訴……","這是馬斯洛的八大需求，最低層次叫生理需求、叫安全需求，這個大家都知道，對不對？我們現在整個的政府政策是在滿足最低層次的生理需求，上面的需求不是沾邊就是沒有在做，所以要做什麼？要做的事情很多。我真的有用心去研究，我只要輸入高齡及政府的研究單位，跑出來的都是健康跟安全而已，研究計畫包括你們委託的計畫都是在做這件事情而已，所以這個會導致什麼呢？就是你們市場想像的很侷限，產業的類型侷限，這一件事情對未來的發展，國科會是負責帶路的，非常重要，我看到行政院包括各個部會都嚴重犯了這個錯誤，戴了一頂銀髮族的帽子，眼睛看的老人都是又病又窮又困又弱，就是需要社會福利、就是需要怎麼樣，其實這大錯特錯，現在這些人是戰後嬰兒潮，現在的高齡者都是戰後嬰兒潮出生的，這一群人是人類有史以來最強壯的世代。"],["吳主任委員政忠：那我就是。"],["吳委員春城：你就是啊！你很年輕啊！壯世代主張什麼呢？身分證打七折，所以你現在49歲而已，還不到49歲，48歲啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：真的嗎？謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：所以你還可以為國家做很多事情，不要想退休，繼續努力啦！好不好？勉勵你啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：我會繼續努力，在民間也是可以繼續努力。"],["吳委員春城：沒有、沒有，你要更上一層，好不好？所以我今天會有一些提案，當然你剛才也看到了一個，我們對於壯世代這個新人類，其實戰後嬰兒潮這一群人，掌握臺灣三分之二財富，大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面，而且他們平均比父祖輩多出20歲，不要再用過去那種看老人的眼光看待他們這一群人，導致於他們被嚴重歧視。所以為什麼臺灣臥床會這樣久？臺灣健保世界第一、臥床世界第一，這都太離譜了！所以國科會非常重要，要拜託主委，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳春城委員，吳主委謝謝。","我們再來請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"149880","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149880","tool":"pyannote","id":"149880-pyannote"},"job_id":"oAAull6C2pz4PfwM","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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00:00:36,108\n主委好吳委員長上次跟你聊天聊得很開心上了一課我們繼續討論我想國科會代表國家的智庫引領國家發展的方向主委就形容是一代宗師地位非常重要我也非常尊敬那我要請問主委\n\n3\n00:00:38,129 --> 00:00:43,694\n我個人的看法我覺得往前30年台灣最重要的事情是民主化\n\n4\n00:00:45,058 --> 00:01:12,852\n你認同嗎?那往後30年你覺得最重要的事情是什麼?還是民主台灣現在民主已經很成功了權力都在人民的手上了好不好?權力都在人民人民做主毫無問題的往後30年最重要的是人口學的問題台灣是以最嚴重的人口變化高齡化跟少子化都是全世界第一名最壞的\n\n5\n00:01:15,151 --> 00:01:15,832\n吳政忠列席報告\n\n6\n00:01:36,354 --> 00:01:54,970\n要未來四年當中又要投入95億然後整合八大部會帶動我們高齡產業3000億那這非常好的事情但是呢不只3000億3000億已經是十幾年前工研院在說的了後來就沒有\n\n7\n00:01:56,861 --> 00:02:24,437\n聯合國說21世紀最大的經濟動人就是長壽經濟帶動的經濟所以長壽經濟未來台灣一半的人口都會是由高齡者所組成的社會這樣的經濟這是我們的未來然後這個一代宗師要引領我們看見這個但是老實講我看到了現在的內容當中沒有這些內容\n\n8\n00:02:25,356 --> 00:02:50,744\n那這個是主委是帶路的人帶頭的人八大部位都跟著你這一個如果走錯路的話那這一個問題會很嚴重所以我今天呢就想要跟你一起來討論這個問題討論這個問題這個就是行政院超高齡社會對策的大綱主委你看一下你覺得幾歲算老人\n\n9\n00:02:54,042 --> 00:02:55,542\n吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員\n\n10\n00:03:17,705 --> 00:03:18,666\n因為全世界聯合國也是這樣定義的\n\n11\n00:03:40,657 --> 00:04:06,027\n但是台灣是世界最嚴重的而且速度最快的其實不要跟著美國走美國永遠是一個年輕社會他們是一個移民社會他們高齡問題不嚴重台灣的高齡問題非常嚴重好不好所以呢不要都說國際怎麼樣我們就跟著怎麼樣我們要走我們自己的路好不好我們看我們現在的這個行政院的這個大綱你覺得這個就是這個要提供你服務因為基本上你是符合這個需求的人你看一看哪一些是你想要的\n\n12\n00:04:06,892 --> 00:04:29,219\n你要長照嗎?你有無障礙休閒需求嗎?你有老人憂鬱症嗎?你有生死血的需求?你有預歷移足的需求嗎?你們全部所提出的大綱就是這個嘛不是老病就是醫療就是說明照顧嘛這個就是行政院對高齡社會的想像嘛國科會就是這個計畫的規劃者嘛\n\n13\n00:04:31,500 --> 00:04:48,647\n去年召開這個高齡科技產業策略會議這個就是最後的願景最後的願景文字很多大家不用看了就看那個圖就知道了你們想像未來希望幸福的老人跟那個就是這個圖嘛對不對安心舒適成就富足嘛安養晚年嘛\n\n14\n00:04:50,180 --> 00:05:08,091\n這個就是我們政府的引發思維的想像嗎?你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎?一般的人口是要長這個樣子嗎?這就是行政這個很嚴重喔因為你們在主導因為政府的想像主導這個當然就是普惠科技更就是那一份計畫書那一場會議當中的大綱\n\n15\n00:05:10,712 --> 00:05:25,562\n所有的裡面名字好像取得有些還蠻好聽的包括我在看今天的報告也有高齡科技的高齡產業的問題但是我沒有看到內容只有口號而已叫做提升社會參與我沒有看到你們提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫\n\n16\n00:05:27,583 --> 00:05:27,603\n錯誤人設\n\n17\n00:05:45,936 --> 00:06:11,942\n整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是引法主簡單來講他就引法思維引法主引法思維就黃社這一邊台灣平均壽命8點多年已經快到9年了那這就是我們對於目標就要讓他好好的臥床對不對臥床舒服一點那這就是高齡科技的目標然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院就是要去醫院的路上\n\n18\n00:06:12,762 --> 00:06:12,922\n吳政忠列席報告業務概況．\n\n19\n00:06:26,107 --> 00:06:54,002\n你要服務這樣的人當然我告訴你時代已經不是這樣子那那個北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該兩禮拜兩週啦我們搞到快九年啦如果兩週那個就是不需要因為兩週很快嘛我們的產業都不需要服務臥床整個產業是要讓他過了壯世代美好的第三人生所有的政策是為這個而設置而我們不是在做這個我們是在要讓他好好臥床\n\n20\n00:06:55,202 --> 00:07:14,698\n你看這個影響有到多大這裡呢應該我們沒有說叫他對啊你沒有叫他但是這個政策的方向我現在老實講我看到整個的方向都是政策都是引法思維行政院的都是引法思維這個方向在做下去而且國科會辦理非常重要因為你要趕快把他帶回來\n\n21\n00:07:17,780 --> 00:07:37,552\n我會拜託主委趕快把他帶回來,帶到一條正確的路線。委員的這個觀念我是認同的,就是說65歲到90歲依照不同年齡的這個層,事實上不要把他認為是老,這個是正確的。對,因為我們現在其實不是反對那一塊,那一塊只在人口老人所謂的15%而已,有85%不太有人在管他。\n\n22\n00:07:39,953 --> 00:07:49,808\n台灣現在退休平均60.3歲退休60歲上有多少人?六八萬人退休後在幹什麼?沒有政策沒有產業自生自滅各憑本事\n\n23\n00:07:53,564 --> 00:07:54,525\n吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員\n\n24\n00:08:17,601 --> 00:08:18,422\n吳政忠列席報告\n\n25\n00:08:40,367 --> 00:08:41,427\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n26\n00:08:56,434 --> 00:08:57,255\n吳春城議員吳春城議員\n\n27\n00:09:26,534 --> 00:09:41,101\n所以你還可以為國家做很多事情啦不要想退休啦繼續努力啦好不好免利你啦我會繼續努力不管在民間也是可以繼續努力沒有沒有沒有你要更上一層樓好不好\n\n28\n00:09:43,235 --> 00:10:07,424\n所以我今天會有一些提案當然剛才也看到了一個就是說我們對於壯世代這個新人類新的戰後嬰兒草這群人掌握台灣三分之二財富大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面而且他們平均比富祖輩多出20歲這群人不要再用過去的那種老人的眼光看待他們導致他們被嚴重的歧視\n\n29\n00:10:08,404 --> 00:10:08,424\n謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2575\t4222\t謝謝主席那我們請主委好有請主委\n9761\t36108\t主委好吳委員長上次跟你聊天聊得很開心上了一課我們繼續討論我想國科會代表國家的智庫引領國家發展的方向主委就形容是一代宗師地位非常重要我也非常尊敬那我要請問主委\n38129\t43694\t我個人的看法我覺得往前30年台灣最重要的事情是民主化\n45058\t72852\t你認同嗎?那往後30年你覺得最重要的事情是什麼?還是民主台灣現在民主已經很成功了權力都在人民的手上了好不好?權力都在人民人民做主毫無問題的往後30年最重要的是人口學的問題台灣是以最嚴重的人口變化高齡化跟少子化都是全世界第一名最壞的\n75151\t75832\t吳政忠列席報告\n96354\t114970\t要未來四年當中又要投入95億然後整合八大部會帶動我們高齡產業3000億那這非常好的事情但是呢不只3000億3000億已經是十幾年前工研院在說的了後來就沒有\n116861\t144437\t聯合國說21世紀最大的經濟動人就是長壽經濟帶動的經濟所以長壽經濟未來台灣一半的人口都會是由高齡者所組成的社會這樣的經濟這是我們的未來然後這個一代宗師要引領我們看見這個但是老實講我看到了現在的內容當中沒有這些內容\n145356\t170744\t那這個是主委是帶路的人帶頭的人八大部位都跟著你這一個如果走錯路的話那這一個問題會很嚴重所以我今天呢就想要跟你一起來討論這個問題討論這個問題這個就是行政院超高齡社會對策的大綱主委你看一下你覺得幾歲算老人\n174042\t175542\t吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員\n197705\t198666\t因為全世界聯合國也是這樣定義的\n220657\t246027\t但是台灣是世界最嚴重的而且速度最快的其實不要跟著美國走美國永遠是一個年輕社會他們是一個移民社會他們高齡問題不嚴重台灣的高齡問題非常嚴重好不好所以呢不要都說國際怎麼樣我們就跟著怎麼樣我們要走我們自己的路好不好我們看我們現在的這個行政院的這個大綱你覺得這個就是這個要提供你服務因為基本上你是符合這個需求的人你看一看哪一些是你想要的\n246892\t269219\t你要長照嗎?你有無障礙休閒需求嗎?你有老人憂鬱症嗎?你有生死血的需求?你有預歷移足的需求嗎?你們全部所提出的大綱就是這個嘛不是老病就是醫療就是說明照顧嘛這個就是行政院對高齡社會的想像嘛國科會就是這個計畫的規劃者嘛\n271500\t288647\t去年召開這個高齡科技產業策略會議這個就是最後的願景最後的願景文字很多大家不用看了就看那個圖就知道了你們想像未來希望幸福的老人跟那個就是這個圖嘛對不對安心舒適成就富足嘛安養晚年嘛\n290180\t308091\t這個就是我們政府的引發思維的想像嗎?你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎?一般的人口是要長這個樣子嗎?這就是行政 這個很嚴重喔因為你們在主導 因為政府的想像主導 這個當然就是普惠科技 更就是那一份計畫書 那一場會議當中的大綱\n310712\t325562\t所有的裡面名字好像取得有些還蠻好聽的包括我在看今天的報告也有高齡科技的高齡產業的問題但是我沒有看到內容只有口號而已叫做提升社會參與我沒有看到你們提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫\n327583\t327603\t錯誤人設\n345936\t371942\t整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是引法主簡單來講他就引法思維引法主引法思維就黃社這一邊台灣平均壽命8點多年已經快到9年了那這就是我們對於目標就要讓他好好的臥床對不對臥床舒服一點那這就是高齡科技的目標然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院就是要去醫院的路上\n372762\t372922\t吳政忠列席報告業務概況．\n386107\t414002\t你要服務這樣的人當然我告訴你時代已經不是這樣子那那個北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該兩禮拜兩週啦我們搞到快九年啦如果兩週那個就是不需要因為兩週很快嘛我們的產業都不需要服務臥床整個產業是要讓他過了壯世代美好的第三人生所有的政策是為這個而設置而我們不是在做這個我們是在要讓他好好臥床\n415202\t434698\t你看這個影響有到多大 這裡呢應該我們沒有說叫他 對啊你沒有叫他但是這個政策的方向我現在老實講我看到整個的方向都是政策都是引法思維行政院的都是引法思維 這個方向在做下去而且國科會辦理非常重要因為你要趕快把他帶回來\n437780\t457552\t我會拜託主委趕快把他帶回來,帶到一條正確的路線。委員的這個觀念我是認同的,就是說65歲到90歲依照不同年齡的這個層,事實上不要把他認為是老,這個是正確的。對,因為我們現在其實不是反對那一塊,那一塊只在人口老人所謂的15%而已,有85%不太有人在管他。\n459953\t469808\t台灣現在退休平均60.3歲退休60歲上有多少人?六八萬人退休後在幹什麼?沒有政策沒有產業自生自滅各憑本事\n473564\t474525\t吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員\n497601\t498422\t吳政忠列席報告\n520367\t521427\t委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n536434\t537255\t吳春城議員吳春城議員\n566534\t581101\t所以你還可以為國家做很多事情啦不要想退休啦繼續努力啦好不好免利你啦我會繼續努力不管在民間也是可以繼續努力沒有沒有沒有你要更上一層樓好不好\n583235\t607424\t所以我今天會有一些提案當然剛才也看到了一個就是說我們對於壯世代這個新人類新的戰後嬰兒草這群人掌握台灣三分之二財富大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面而且他們平均比富祖輩多出20歲這群人不要再用過去的那種老人的眼光看待他們導致他們被嚴重的歧視\n608404\t608424\t謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席那我們請主委好有請主委\n主委好吳委員長上次跟你聊天聊得很開心上了一課我們繼續討論我想國科會代表國家的智庫引領國家發展的方向主委就形容是一代宗師地位非常重要我也非常尊敬那我要請問主委\n我個人的看法我覺得往前30年台灣最重要的事情是民主化\n你認同嗎?那往後30年你覺得最重要的事情是什麼?還是民主台灣現在民主已經很成功了權力都在人民的手上了好不好?權力都在人民人民做主毫無問題的往後30年最重要的是人口學的問題台灣是以最嚴重的人口變化高齡化跟少子化都是全世界第一名最壞的\n吳政忠列席報告\n要未來四年當中又要投入95億然後整合八大部會帶動我們高齡產業3000億那這非常好的事情但是呢不只3000億3000億已經是十幾年前工研院在說的了後來就沒有\n聯合國說21世紀最大的經濟動人就是長壽經濟帶動的經濟所以長壽經濟未來台灣一半的人口都會是由高齡者所組成的社會這樣的經濟這是我們的未來然後這個一代宗師要引領我們看見這個但是老實講我看到了現在的內容當中沒有這些內容\n那這個是主委是帶路的人帶頭的人八大部位都跟著你這一個如果走錯路的話那這一個問題會很嚴重所以我今天呢就想要跟你一起來討論這個問題討論這個問題這個就是行政院超高齡社會對策的大綱主委你看一下你覺得幾歲算老人\n吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員\n因為全世界聯合國也是這樣定義的\n但是台灣是世界最嚴重的而且速度最快的其實不要跟著美國走美國永遠是一個年輕社會他們是一個移民社會他們高齡問題不嚴重台灣的高齡問題非常嚴重好不好所以呢不要都說國際怎麼樣我們就跟著怎麼樣我們要走我們自己的路好不好我們看我們現在的這個行政院的這個大綱你覺得這個就是這個要提供你服務因為基本上你是符合這個需求的人你看一看哪一些是你想要的\n你要長照嗎?你有無障礙休閒需求嗎?你有老人憂鬱症嗎?你有生死血的需求?你有預歷移足的需求嗎?你們全部所提出的大綱就是這個嘛不是老病就是醫療就是說明照顧嘛這個就是行政院對高齡社會的想像嘛國科會就是這個計畫的規劃者嘛\n去年召開這個高齡科技產業策略會議這個就是最後的願景最後的願景文字很多大家不用看了就看那個圖就知道了你們想像未來希望幸福的老人跟那個就是這個圖嘛對不對安心舒適成就富足嘛安養晚年嘛\n這個就是我們政府的引發思維的想像嗎?你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎?一般的人口是要長這個樣子嗎?這就是行政 這個很嚴重喔因為你們在主導 因為政府的想像主導 這個當然就是普惠科技 更就是那一份計畫書 那一場會議當中的大綱\n所有的裡面名字好像取得有些還蠻好聽的包括我在看今天的報告也有高齡科技的高齡產業的問題但是我沒有看到內容只有口號而已叫做提升社會參與我沒有看到你們提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫\n錯誤人設\n整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是引法主簡單來講他就引法思維引法主引法思維就黃社這一邊台灣平均壽命8點多年已經快到9年了那這就是我們對於目標就要讓他好好的臥床對不對臥床舒服一點那這就是高齡科技的目標然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院就是要去醫院的路上\n吳政忠列席報告業務概況．\n你要服務這樣的人當然我告訴你時代已經不是這樣子那那個北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該兩禮拜兩週啦我們搞到快九年啦如果兩週那個就是不需要因為兩週很快嘛我們的產業都不需要服務臥床整個產業是要讓他過了壯世代美好的第三人生所有的政策是為這個而設置而我們不是在做這個我們是在要讓他好好臥床\n你看這個影響有到多大 這裡呢應該我們沒有說叫他 對啊你沒有叫他但是這個政策的方向我現在老實講我看到整個的方向都是政策都是引法思維行政院的都是引法思維 這個方向在做下去而且國科會辦理非常重要因為你要趕快把他帶回來\n我會拜託主委趕快把他帶回來,帶到一條正確的路線。委員的這個觀念我是認同的,就是說65歲到90歲依照不同年齡的這個層,事實上不要把他認為是老,這個是正確的。對,因為我們現在其實不是反對那一塊,那一塊只在人口老人所謂的15%而已,有85%不太有人在管他。\n台灣現在退休平均60.3歲退休60歲上有多少人?六八萬人退休後在幹什麼?沒有政策沒有產業自生自滅各憑本事\n吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員\n吳政忠列席報告\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n吳春城議員吳春城議員\n所以你還可以為國家做很多事情啦不要想退休啦繼續努力啦好不好免利你啦我會繼續努力不管在民間也是可以繼續努力沒有沒有沒有你要更上一層樓好不好\n所以我今天會有一些提案當然剛才也看到了一個就是說我們對於壯世代這個新人類新的戰後嬰兒草這群人掌握台灣三分之二財富大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面而且他們平均比富祖輩多出20歲這群人不要再用過去的那種老人的眼光看待他們導致他們被嚴重的歧視\n謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.575 --> 00:04.222\n謝謝主席那我們請主委好有請主委\n\n00:09.761 --> 00:36.108\n主委好吳委員長上次跟你聊天聊得很開心上了一課我們繼續討論我想國科會代表國家的智庫引領國家發展的方向主委就形容是一代宗師地位非常重要我也非常尊敬那我要請問主委\n\n00:38.129 --> 00:43.694\n我個人的看法我覺得往前30年台灣最重要的事情是民主化\n\n00:45.058 --> 01:12.852\n你認同嗎?那往後30年你覺得最重要的事情是什麼?還是民主台灣現在民主已經很成功了權力都在人民的手上了好不好?權力都在人民人民做主毫無問題的往後30年最重要的是人口學的問題台灣是以最嚴重的人口變化高齡化跟少子化都是全世界第一名最壞的\n\n01:15.151 --> 01:15.832\n吳政忠列席報告\n\n01:36.354 --> 01:54.970\n要未來四年當中又要投入95億然後整合八大部會帶動我們高齡產業3000億那這非常好的事情但是呢不只3000億3000億已經是十幾年前工研院在說的了後來就沒有\n\n01:56.861 --> 02:24.437\n聯合國說21世紀最大的經濟動人就是長壽經濟帶動的經濟所以長壽經濟未來台灣一半的人口都會是由高齡者所組成的社會這樣的經濟這是我們的未來然後這個一代宗師要引領我們看見這個但是老實講我看到了現在的內容當中沒有這些內容\n\n02:25.356 --> 02:50.744\n那這個是主委是帶路的人帶頭的人八大部位都跟著你這一個如果走錯路的話那這一個問題會很嚴重所以我今天呢就想要跟你一起來討論這個問題討論這個問題這個就是行政院超高齡社會對策的大綱主委你看一下你覺得幾歲算老人\n\n02:54.042 --> 02:55.542\n吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員\n\n03:17.705 --> 03:18.666\n因為全世界聯合國也是這樣定義的\n\n03:40.657 --> 04:06.027\n但是台灣是世界最嚴重的而且速度最快的其實不要跟著美國走美國永遠是一個年輕社會他們是一個移民社會他們高齡問題不嚴重台灣的高齡問題非常嚴重好不好所以呢不要都說國際怎麼樣我們就跟著怎麼樣我們要走我們自己的路好不好我們看我們現在的這個行政院的這個大綱你覺得這個就是這個要提供你服務因為基本上你是符合這個需求的人你看一看哪一些是你想要的\n\n04:06.892 --> 04:29.219\n你要長照嗎?你有無障礙休閒需求嗎?你有老人憂鬱症嗎?你有生死血的需求?你有預歷移足的需求嗎?你們全部所提出的大綱就是這個嘛不是老病就是醫療就是說明照顧嘛這個就是行政院對高齡社會的想像嘛國科會就是這個計畫的規劃者嘛\n\n04:31.500 --> 04:48.647\n去年召開這個高齡科技產業策略會議這個就是最後的願景最後的願景文字很多大家不用看了就看那個圖就知道了你們想像未來希望幸福的老人跟那個就是這個圖嘛對不對安心舒適成就富足嘛安養晚年嘛\n\n04:50.180 --> 05:08.091\n這個就是我們政府的引發思維的想像嗎?你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎?一般的人口是要長這個樣子嗎?這就是行政這個很嚴重喔因為你們在主導因為政府的想像主導這個當然就是普惠科技更就是那一份計畫書那一場會議當中的大綱\n\n05:10.712 --> 05:25.562\n所有的裡面名字好像取得有些還蠻好聽的包括我在看今天的報告也有高齡科技的高齡產業的問題但是我沒有看到內容只有口號而已叫做提升社會參與我沒有看到你們提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫\n\n05:27.583 --> 05:27.603\n錯誤人設\n\n05:45.936 --> 06:11.942\n整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是引法主簡單來講他就引法思維引法主引法思維就黃社這一邊台灣平均壽命8點多年已經快到9年了那這就是我們對於目標就要讓他好好的臥床對不對臥床舒服一點那這就是高齡科技的目標然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院就是要去醫院的路上\n\n06:12.762 --> 06:12.922\n吳政忠列席報告業務概況．\n\n06:26.107 --> 06:54.002\n你要服務這樣的人當然我告訴你時代已經不是這樣子那那個北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該兩禮拜兩週啦我們搞到快九年啦如果兩週那個就是不需要因為兩週很快嘛我們的產業都不需要服務臥床整個產業是要讓他過了壯世代美好的第三人生所有的政策是為這個而設置而我們不是在做這個我們是在要讓他好好臥床\n\n06:55.202 --> 07:14.698\n你看這個影響有到多大這裡呢應該我們沒有說叫他對啊你沒有叫他但是這個政策的方向我現在老實講我看到整個的方向都是政策都是引法思維行政院的都是引法思維這個方向在做下去而且國科會辦理非常重要因為你要趕快把他帶回來\n\n07:17.780 --> 07:37.552\n我會拜託主委趕快把他帶回來,帶到一條正確的路線。委員的這個觀念我是認同的,就是說65歲到90歲依照不同年齡的這個層,事實上不要把他認為是老,這個是正確的。對,因為我們現在其實不是反對那一塊,那一塊只在人口老人所謂的15%而已,有85%不太有人在管他。\n\n07:39.953 --> 07:49.808\n台灣現在退休平均60.3歲退休60歲上有多少人?六八萬人退休後在幹什麼?沒有政策沒有產業自生自滅各憑本事\n\n07:53.564 --> 07:54.525\n吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員\n\n08:17.601 --> 08:18.422\n吳政忠列席報告\n\n08:40.367 --> 08:41.427\n委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任\n\n08:56.434 --> 08:57.255\n吳春城議員吳春城議員\n\n09:26.534 --> 09:41.101\n所以你還可以為國家做很多事情啦不要想退休啦繼續努力啦好不好免利你啦我會繼續努力不管在民間也是可以繼續努力沒有沒有沒有你要更上一層樓好不好\n\n09:43.235 --> 10:07.424\n所以我今天會有一些提案當然剛才也看到了一個就是說我們對於壯世代這個新人類新的戰後嬰兒草這群人掌握台灣三分之二財富大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面而且他們平均比富祖輩多出20歲這群人不要再用過去的那種老人的眼光看待他們導致他們被嚴重的歧視\n\n10:08.404 --> 10:08.424\n謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.575,"end":4.222,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請主委好有請主委"},{"start":9.761,"end":36.108,"text":"主委好吳委員長上次跟你聊天聊得很開心上了一課我們繼續討論我想國科會代表國家的智庫引領國家發展的方向主委就形容是一代宗師地位非常重要我也非常尊敬那我要請問主委"},{"start":38.129,"end":43.694,"text":"我個人的看法我覺得往前30年台灣最重要的事情是民主化"},{"start":45.058,"end":72.852,"text":"你認同嗎?那往後30年你覺得最重要的事情是什麼?還是民主台灣現在民主已經很成功了權力都在人民的手上了好不好?權力都在人民人民做主毫無問題的往後30年最重要的是人口學的問題台灣是以最嚴重的人口變化高齡化跟少子化都是全世界第一名最壞的"},{"start":75.151,"end":75.832,"text":"吳政忠列席報告"},{"start":96.354,"end":114.97,"text":"要未來四年當中又要投入95億然後整合八大部會帶動我們高齡產業3000億那這非常好的事情但是呢不只3000億3000億已經是十幾年前工研院在說的了後來就沒有"},{"start":116.861,"end":144.437,"text":"聯合國說21世紀最大的經濟動人就是長壽經濟帶動的經濟所以長壽經濟未來台灣一半的人口都會是由高齡者所組成的社會這樣的經濟這是我們的未來然後這個一代宗師要引領我們看見這個但是老實講我看到了現在的內容當中沒有這些內容"},{"start":145.356,"end":170.744,"text":"那這個是主委是帶路的人帶頭的人八大部位都跟著你這一個如果走錯路的話那這一個問題會很嚴重所以我今天呢就想要跟你一起來討論這個問題討論這個問題這個就是行政院超高齡社會對策的大綱主委你看一下你覺得幾歲算老人"},{"start":174.042,"end":175.542,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":197.705,"end":198.666,"text":"因為全世界聯合國也是這樣定義的"},{"start":220.657,"end":246.027,"text":"但是台灣是世界最嚴重的而且速度最快的其實不要跟著美國走美國永遠是一個年輕社會他們是一個移民社會他們高齡問題不嚴重台灣的高齡問題非常嚴重好不好所以呢不要都說國際怎麼樣我們就跟著怎麼樣我們要走我們自己的路好不好我們看我們現在的這個行政院的這個大綱你覺得這個就是這個要提供你服務因為基本上你是符合這個需求的人你看一看哪一些是你想要的"},{"start":246.892,"end":269.219,"text":"你要長照嗎?你有無障礙休閒需求嗎?你有老人憂鬱症嗎?你有生死血的需求?你有預歷移足的需求嗎?你們全部所提出的大綱就是這個嘛不是老病就是醫療就是說明照顧嘛這個就是行政院對高齡社會的想像嘛國科會就是這個計畫的規劃者嘛"},{"start":271.5,"end":288.647,"text":"去年召開這個高齡科技產業策略會議這個就是最後的願景最後的願景文字很多大家不用看了就看那個圖就知道了你們想像未來希望幸福的老人跟那個就是這個圖嘛對不對安心舒適成就富足嘛安養晚年嘛"},{"start":290.18,"end":308.091,"text":"這個就是我們政府的引發思維的想像嗎?你覺得我們現在的社會是這樣子嗎?一般的人口是要長這個樣子嗎?這就是行政 這個很嚴重喔因為你們在主導 因為政府的想像主導 這個當然就是普惠科技 更就是那一份計畫書 那一場會議當中的大綱"},{"start":310.712,"end":325.562,"text":"所有的裡面名字好像取得有些還蠻好聽的包括我在看今天的報告也有高齡科技的高齡產業的問題但是我沒有看到內容只有口號而已叫做提升社會參與我沒有看到你們提升什麼社會參與的一些計畫"},{"start":327.583,"end":327.603,"text":"錯誤人設"},{"start":345.936,"end":371.942,"text":"整個我們對老人的錯誤人設就是引法主簡單來講他就引法思維引法主引法思維就黃社這一邊台灣平均壽命8點多年已經快到9年了那這就是我們對於目標就要讓他好好的臥床對不對臥床舒服一點那這就是高齡科技的目標然後他的生活場域不是生活在醫院就是要去醫院的路上"},{"start":372.762,"end":372.922,"text":"吳政忠列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":386.107,"end":414.002,"text":"你要服務這樣的人當然我告訴你時代已經不是這樣子那那個北歐國家認為高齡者臥床正常應該兩禮拜兩週啦我們搞到快九年啦如果兩週那個就是不需要因為兩週很快嘛我們的產業都不需要服務臥床整個產業是要讓他過了壯世代美好的第三人生所有的政策是為這個而設置而我們不是在做這個我們是在要讓他好好臥床"},{"start":415.202,"end":434.698,"text":"你看這個影響有到多大 這裡呢應該我們沒有說叫他 對啊你沒有叫他但是這個政策的方向我現在老實講我看到整個的方向都是政策都是引法思維行政院的都是引法思維 這個方向在做下去而且國科會辦理非常重要因為你要趕快把他帶回來"},{"start":437.78,"end":457.552,"text":"我會拜託主委趕快把他帶回來,帶到一條正確的路線。委員的這個觀念我是認同的,就是說65歲到90歲依照不同年齡的這個層,事實上不要把他認為是老,這個是正確的。對,因為我們現在其實不是反對那一塊,那一塊只在人口老人所謂的15%而已,有85%不太有人在管他。"},{"start":459.953,"end":469.808,"text":"台灣現在退休平均60.3歲退休60歲上有多少人?六八萬人退休後在幹什麼?沒有政策沒有產業自生自滅各憑本事"},{"start":473.564,"end":474.525,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":497.601,"end":498.422,"text":"吳政忠列席報告"},{"start":520.367,"end":521.427,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":536.434,"end":537.255,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":566.534,"end":581.101,"text":"所以你還可以為國家做很多事情啦不要想退休啦繼續努力啦好不好免利你啦我會繼續努力不管在民間也是可以繼續努力沒有沒有沒有你要更上一層樓好不好"},{"start":583.235,"end":607.424,"text":"所以我今天會有一些提案當然剛才也看到了一個就是說我們對於壯世代這個新人類新的戰後嬰兒草這群人掌握台灣三分之二財富大部分的智慧腦庫都在他們腦袋裡面而且他們平均比富祖輩多出20歲這群人不要再用過去的那種老人的眼光看待他們導致他們被嚴重的歧視"},{"start":608.404,"end":608.424,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}}}}