{"id":149885,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149885","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313517d562db1a2dfd0c836c7b9700c54b84f8ba9b0039caa7a6771bfa2fcba23d975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:16:10 - 11:27:05","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月11日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":655,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:27:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:16:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":674,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時16分）謝謝宜瑾召委。有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員政忠：范委員早。"],["范委員雲：主委早安。我在整理今天要問什麼問題的這個禮拜，真的發現主委任內非常有開創性，針對重要的科技趨勢，譬如今天也有委員問過的本土生成式 AI，還有就是大家都很關心的晶創臺灣方案，我覺得都是非常有前瞻性，我們在科技的前沿怎麼樣為臺灣創造最大公共利益的部分，主委任內的這些作法，我覺得都是引領的，我們委員還沒想到的，你們都先規劃了，所以我肯定主委這方面的努力，非常地期待，讓臺灣在未來10年，我們都有機會繼續引領。對於我關心的一些問題，不管是性別、人文社會科學，主委也非常關注，這點我也肯定，相比我們看到過去的國科會，我覺得這也是非常可圈可點，但是今天還是希望要精進啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：我們還是要能夠更好，我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好而放鬆，要更好！所以今天先請問生成式AI，一年前去年3月15日的時候，我當時就以國外的研究談到Human-in-the-loop、Society-in-the-loop，其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制，要讓它有臺味、人味、倫理、性平等等，所以當時提了三個要求，第一個，要降低資料庫的偏見；第二個，AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與，在決策過程這部分；第三個，要研發「人工道德行為者」這樣的機制，你們辦公室都有跟我們回應，我們也非常地肯定，我們看到去年6月就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI，所以這個TAIDE計畫，我想算是非常讓人值得期待，我知道你們還沒有正式開放，據我瞭解的是，公部門包含榮總、中研院、氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達要相關合作，取得這整個的過程，我想真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要。也有13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU，所以我覺得你們也在創造公共財，讓臺灣的產業有機會在世界的AI新發展中，有本土生成式的AI可以合作，這部分我覺得都非常好。","我想針對我之前問的倫理機制，本土的部分其實你們已經做到了，倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的，沒有資料偏見這個部分，你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是，你們已經考慮了倫理因素，將研析國際相關技術並參酌委員意見納入TAIDE設計的開發過程。主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎？因為納入這兩個字，我跟辦公室研究了很久，還不清楚，可不可以跟我們分享一下？"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個有一點技術的問題，就是……"],["范委員雲：對，用我們大家都聽得懂的話告訴我。"],["吳主任委員政忠：第一個，它在回答的時候，我們現在TAIDE引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊驗測，他會去問它，然後給它一些……"],["范委員雲：所以是用一個檢測、測試的方式？因為我有看到新聞報導，你們都有在測試嘛！"],["吳主任委員政忠：對，就是有點在教小朋友的概念。"],["范委員雲：就是測試嘛？"],["吳主任委員政忠：另外一個是針對被盜用等，whatever，事實上如果這個對話引擎去唸一些沒有著作權的資料，未來我們會埋進去，生成的時候，它一唸到那個東西，馬上就會被發現，這個也是一些……"],["范委員雲：如果它答出來的，譬如不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的，會在測試的結果裡面做修正，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：修正，另外也會讓這個擁有者知道他的東西被偷唸了、偷看了。"],["范委員雲：瞭解。"],["吳主任委員政忠：這個是技術問題，這還在演進當中。"],["范委員雲：對，我想這個技術問題，大家都非常期待，對你們也有一定的信心，但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊、你們給我的回復跟您剛剛的答復，我覺得倫理的這個議題，就是我講的Human-in-the-loop、Society-in-the-loop，好像沒有在這個loop裡面，還是在太後端了，就是你們已經有東西出來做檢測，我的理解是後端，能不能在研發的階段就納入人文社會科學的相關人才，我覺得如果在前端就能夠有這個國外發展所說的Human-in-the-loop、Society-in-the-loop，我們這個已經確定是本土的生成式AI甚至可能會比其他的國家還做得更好，不知道主委可以承諾往這個方向去努力嗎？因為我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊！"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，謝謝，這個的確必須要，因為我剛剛講這個生成式人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人，這是它的腦，所以它的倫理、法治、道德觀念一定是要有我們臺灣的想法跟思想，這個我們會來做。"],["范委員雲：好啊！因為未來醫療、氣象、企業都會用到……"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，都會用。"],["范委員雲：所以如果你們前端做得好，我想我們全國都能夠享用跟升級，好不好？主委，針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入人文社會去思考倫理跟相關的部分，報告在兩個月之內再給我一份，好不好？就是規劃的部分。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["范委員雲：OK。另外一題，我想今天大家都很關心，也非常期待，就是晶創臺灣方案，因為真的是像我剛剛講的，我非常地肯定主委有這個10年的規畫，我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這，由國科會來領導非常地好，你們會結合我們剛講的生成式AI跟晶片的產業，所以我想科技跟產業之間的帶動有關，因為我們辦公室研究了半天，之前你們有推動八大前瞻科技平臺，當時也有相關的部分，所以想瞭解跟八大前瞻科技平臺的關聯性是什麼，以及資源分配整合會不會有重疊的部分，主委可不可以簡要說明？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。委員這個說法滿正確的，事實上我們在盤點晶創臺灣計畫的時候，以前的都會把它併入。"],["范委員雲：會併入？就是一個更龐大的計畫了。"],["吳主任委員政忠：不能重疊，因為有些會有關聯性。"],["范委員雲：好，我相信您。我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題，記不記得之前我問過人文科技「經費暫無」的問題？我非常地驚慌、驚訝，我質詢時也講過我們臺灣的人文社會經費、人才跟OECD國家比，我們是人文人才極低，社會科學也相對低，我們是科技一枝獨秀。我知道主委很重視這一塊，可是當時報紙就爆出了「經費暫無」的情況。後來你們跟我講可能是個錯誤，對不對？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是啊！"],["范委員雲：我還是要求應該增加，所以從八大前瞻到晶創臺灣方案，人文社會科學你要有相關的人才去研究才能夠整合，到底經費有沒有增加？我質詢過之後，後來情況如何？主委可以簡要說明嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：有，事實上那個是超過10億臺幣……"],["范委員雲：就是八大裡面超過10億？"],["吳主任委員政忠：對，就是人文科技這邊，事實上在……"],["范委員雲：這比例是不是還是太低了？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是啦。"],["范委員雲：你看淨零科技就119億，對不對？"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個部分我跟委員報告，這會有一個過程，突然間你給它太多錢，也會浪費。"],["范委員雲：這當然也是啦，合理啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：另外，我們現在有一個科民社，就是科技民主社會……"],["范委員雲：有……"],["吳主任委員政忠：有一批人……"],["范委員雲：我知道，就是設在政大的那個，那個非常讓人期待。"],["吳主任委員政忠：他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼用人文社會接到我們的製造業。"],["范委員雲：好，我想這個也的確是要有個漸進的過程，臺灣的科技非常好，可是科技畢竟是為人服務，它也要服膺於民主價值。在你們的四大布局當中，我們辦公室有去研究，在你們的布局一有講到要結合人文社會科學，剛剛我們講的是那邊有10億，對不對？這個結合的方式跟預算的布局，不知道主委是不是有規劃？我們如何能夠逐步增加，會不會也有一個十年規劃呢？因為你說這個不能一下增加太快，會出現弊端嘛。"],["吳主任委員政忠：產業創新的來源就是人文社會生活的一些感觸，因為臺灣以前是比較偏代工思維，你要慢慢過來到全產業創新，才會讓更多的年輕朋友加進來。"],["范委員雲：對！人才也需要培養，譬如說現在的博士生就要知道往這個方向走。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，瞭解。因為原來這個是IC design，這些人大部分是半導體，這兩群人如何介接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的。"],["范委員雲：好。主委，因為時間的關係，時間快到了。我想這個十年計畫──晶創臺灣方案，大家非常的期待，八大前瞻也會整合到裡面，我很希望520之後您繼續領導，我不知道您有沒有意願等等，那是不是520前也給我一份人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的十年初步規劃，好不好？如何讓預算慢慢地成長？我想您的魄力跟遠見、對於人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的，所以您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一份初步的報告、規劃？"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["范委員雲：謝謝主委。加油！我們期待您繼續領導臺灣，更上一層樓我們也非常歡迎，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員。","現在先來處理臨時提案，今天委員提出的臨時提案有3案，我們一併宣讀，請宣讀。","一、","案由：有鑑於近幾年生成式人工智慧（AI）技術發展一日千里，影響遍佈全球產官學研各界。其生成創作內容在提供生活上娛樂便利與提高工作效率的同時，也引發著作權爭議，以及大量現有職業被取代的焦慮。在將來生成式AI勢必進一步結合產業應用的同時，應先就AI對就業市場潛在的衝擊進行評估，並制定相關配套措施以預防人類工作被大量取代所引發之社會動盪。","爰請國家科學及技術委員會針對生成式AI於就業市場可能產生的衝擊範圍，深度進行評估，提出立法規範建議或參考指引，並於三個月內就其進度向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：洪孟楷　　萬美玲　　林宜瑾","二、","有鑑於行政院國家科學技術發展基金在高齡議題上，多數以高齡長者、銀髮族群的醫療及安全需求作為研究導向，實際上有關壯世代族群在食衣住行育樂等相關需求之研究寥寥無幾，上述情形顯示國家科學及技術委員會在高齡科技產業發展上，存在高齡需求數據嚴重不足之問題，進而在缺乏對壯世代需求的理解下，因目標市場模糊和不合理難以有顯著成果。國科會應規劃高齡科技產業的市場需求調查，於一個月內提出書面報告與立法院教文委員會。","提案人：吳春城　　萬美玲　　洪孟楷","三、","案由：有鑑於國科會推動「高齡科技產業行動計畫」，預計4年內投入95億元經費，並整合行政院經濟部、衛福部、數位部、教育部、內政部、文化部及原民會共8大部會。然而台灣過去社會環境或是政府的高齡化對策都以「養生、養老、養病」作為思考點，高齡科技多侷限於醫療保健等生理需求問題。國科會應基於高齡科技相關計畫之研究基礎，探討科技與設計在50歲以上人口生活中所扮演的角色，並就上述議題精進高齡科技產業相關計畫及提出專責市場需求系統性研究方案，於三個月內提出書面報告予立法院教文委員會。","提案人：吳春城　　萬美玲　　洪孟楷"],["主席：好，請問這3案的提案委員，有沒有補充說明或意見？如果沒有的話，主委要不要補充說明？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員提案。第1案遵照辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["吳主任委員政忠：第2案有一些文字修正，在最後倒數第二行「國科會應……」把「應」劃掉，修改為「國科會會同經濟部、衛福部、數發部規劃……」，就是差了幾個字，這個跟委員有協調過，應該是OK。","第3案也是稍微文字修正，從上面算下來第五行「國科會應會同經濟部、衛福部、數發部基於高齡科技……」，其他就沒有修正。"],["主席：好，吳委員沒問題喔，那我們……"],["吳主任委員政忠：對不起，還有一個，不好意思喔！第2案的「一個月」改成「三個月」。"],["主席：好，第1案就照案通過；第2案跟第3案都修正通過，謝謝。各提案如果有委員要補簽，我們請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄，補簽在這裡。","我們接下來進行質詢。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","接下來我們請吳思瑤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-3","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","葉元之","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","吳春城","范雲","吳思瑤","林倩綺","邱志偉","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","高金素梅"],"page_start":281,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳政忠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131201_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"149885","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149885","tool":"pyannote","id":"149885-pyannote"},"job_id":"K2K4tzZkPLbQFkFy","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"另外一題我想今天大家都很關心也非常期待就是這個精創台灣方案因為真的是我剛講我非常的肯定主委有這個10年的規劃那我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這有國科會的領導非常的好那你們會結合現在我們剛講的深層式AI\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 383.227, \"end\": 383.367, \"score\": 0.578}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 383.367, \"end\": 383.508, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 383.508, \"end\": 384.108, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 384.108, \"end\": 384.208, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 384.208, \"end\": 384.449, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 384.449, \"end\": 384.609, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 384.609, \"end\": 384.809, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 384.809, \"end\": 384.989, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 384.989, \"end\": 385.149, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 385.149, \"end\": 385.25, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 385.25, \"end\": 385.71, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", 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650.272, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 650.272, \"end\": 650.292, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 650.292, \"end\": 650.312, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"歡\"}, {\"word\": \"迎\", \"start\": 650.312, \"end\": 650.332, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,697 --> 00:00:03,977\n主席\n\n2\n00:00:12,596 --> 00:00:17,738\n主委早安我想整理今天要問什麼問題的這個禮拜真的發現這個主委任內非常有快創性針對重要的科技趨勢比如說今天有委員問過的本土生成式的AI還有就是大家都很關心的\n\n3\n00:00:34,164 --> 00:00:34,184\n﹚范雲\n\n4\n00:00:55,603 --> 00:00:55,643\n范雲范雲\n\n5\n00:01:16,579 --> 00:01:32,647\n但是今天還是希望要精進啦就是我們還是要能夠更好那我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好放鬆嘛要更好所以今天先請問那個深層室AI一年前\n\n6\n00:01:33,647 --> 00:01:59,006\n去年3月15日的時候我當時就以國外的研究談到那個humanintheloopsocietyintheloop就是其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制那要讓它有臺位人位倫理性平等等所以當時提了三個要求第一個要降低資料庫的偏見第二個AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與\n\n7\n00:02:00,767 --> 00:02:25,635\n決策過程第三個要研發人工道德行為者這樣的機制那你們辦公室都有跟我們回應那我們也非常的肯定我們看到就是去年6月我們就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI那所以這部分這個泰德計畫我想算是非常的讓人值得期待那我知道你們還沒有正式開放\n\n8\n00:02:26,496 --> 00:02:45,335\n據我了解的是公部門包含榮總中研院氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達就是要相關的合作取得這些就是這個這整個的過程我想這真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要那也有就是13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU\n\n9\n00:03:03,209 --> 00:03:20,713\n我想針對我之前問的那個倫理機制所以本土的部分其實你們已經做到了那倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的沒有資料偏見這個部分那你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是說你們已經考慮了倫理因素將沿西國際相關技術並參索委員意見納入泰德設計的開發過程\n\n10\n00:03:28,596 --> 00:03:40,210\n主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎?因為納入這兩個字我跟辦公室研究了很久還不清楚可不可以跟我們分享一下這個有一點技術的問題因為我們大家聽得懂的話告訴我們第一個就是說他在回答的時候\n\n11\n00:03:45,596 --> 00:04:09,339\n我們現在台的引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊去驗測他會去問他然後給他一些這個所以是用一個檢測測試的方式因為我有看到新聞報導你們都有在測試嘛有點在教小朋友的這個概念那另外一個就是說針對被盜用或whatever事實上如果\n\n12\n00:04:10,020 --> 00:04:38,185\n他這個對話引擎去念一些他沒有著作權的資料那未來我們會埋進去就這個時候他一念到那個東西馬上就會被發現就是如果他答出來的比如說具有不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的會在測試的結果裡面做修正是這樣嗎修正那另外一個也會讓這個擁有者知道說他東西被\n\n13\n00:04:39,588 --> 00:04:47,433\n人民也有一定的信心喔但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊你們給我的回覆跟您剛的答覆我覺得這個倫理的這個議題就是我講的humanintheloopsocietyintheloop\n\n14\n00:05:00,621 --> 00:05:00,641\n范雲\n\n15\n00:05:27,356 --> 00:05:55,318\n甚至比其他的國家還做得更好那不知道那個主委可以就是說承諾往這個方向去努力嗎因為我這是需要我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊謝謝這個的確必須要啦因為我剛剛講這個深層次人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人然後這是他的腦所以他的倫理法治道德觀念一定是要有我們台灣的想法跟思想這個我們會來做好啊\n\n16\n00:05:55,598 --> 00:06:20,866\n因為你這個未來醫療啊氣象啊企業都會用到所以你們前端就是說做得好的話我想我們全國都會能夠享用跟升級好不好那主委這部分針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入這個就是人文社會那去思考倫理跟相關的部分的話那報告在兩個月之內再給我一份好不好就是規劃的話就是說OK好\n\n17\n00:06:23,227 --> 00:06:40,006\n另外一題我想今天大家都很關心也非常期待就是這個精創台灣方案因為真的是我剛講我非常的肯定主委有這個10年的規劃那我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這有國科會的領導非常的好那你們會結合現在我們剛講的深層式AI\n\n18\n00:06:44,991 --> 00:06:45,491\n主委可不可以簡要說明\n\n19\n00:07:11,999 --> 00:07:21,986\n謝謝委員這個蠻正確的事實上我們在盤點金創台灣計畫的時候以前的都會把它併入就是一個更龐大的計畫不能重疊因為有些會有關聯性的\n\n20\n00:07:26,869 --> 00:07:46,886\n我相信您喔那我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題啊之前那個人文科技齁記不記得我問過說經費佔無非常的驚慌驚訝覺得就是說我們台灣的人文社會經費人才我質詢也講過跟OECD國家比我們是人文人才極低\n\n21\n00:07:47,566 --> 00:07:47,586\n范雲議員\n\n22\n00:08:10,686 --> 00:08:31,582\n相關的人才去研究才能夠整合到底經費有沒有增加後來我質詢過之後情況如何主委可以簡要說明嗎事實上那個是超過10億台幣就是八大裡面超過10億對對就人文科技這邊那事實上在這個比例是不是還是太低了你看淨零科技就1191對不對那個我跟委員報告這會有一個過程\n\n23\n00:08:34,864 --> 00:08:36,046\n他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼要融入社會接到我們的製造業\n\n24\n00:08:53,288 --> 00:08:53,308\n范雲議員\n\n25\n00:09:16,116 --> 00:09:16,136\n范雲議員\n\n26\n00:09:41,051 --> 00:10:04,807\n產業創新的來源就人文社會生活的一些感觸那一下子因為台灣以前是比較代工思維那你要慢慢過來我們這個全產業創新會讓更多的年輕朋友對人才也需要培養比如現在的博士生就要知道說往這個方向了也就是說因為原來這個是ICDesign這些人大部分是半導體\n\n27\n00:10:07,889 --> 00:10:22,177\n這兩群人怎麼借接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的主委因為時間的關係快到了我想因為您這個十年計畫精創台灣大家非常的期待八大前瞻也會整合到裡面\n\n28\n00:10:22,677 --> 00:10:45,464\n是不是我很希望520之後您繼續領導那但是就是說我不知道您有沒有意願等等那是不是520前也給我一個人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的一個10年初步的規劃好不好如何預算慢慢的成長我想您的魄力跟遠見對人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的所以希望您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告規劃可以\n\n29\n00:10:48,227 --> 00:10:50,332\n謝謝主委加油我們期待您繼續領導台灣更上一層我們也非常歡迎謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3697\t3977\t主席\n12596\t17738\t主委早安我想整理今天要問什麼問題的這個禮拜真的發現這個主委任內非常有快創性針對重要的科技趨勢比如說今天有委員問過的本土生成式的AI還有就是大家都很關心的\n34164\t34184\t﹚范雲\n55603\t55643\t范雲 范雲\n76579\t92647\t但是今天還是希望要精進啦就是我們還是要能夠更好那我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好放鬆嘛要更好所以今天先請問那個深層室AI一年前\n93647\t119006\t去年3月15日的時候我當時就以國外的研究談到那個human in the loop society in the loop就是其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制那要讓它有臺位人位倫理性平等等所以當時提了三個要求第一個要降低資料庫的偏見第二個AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與\n120767\t145635\t決策過程第三個要研發人工道德行為者這樣的機制那你們辦公室都有跟我們回應那我們也非常的肯定我們看到就是去年6月我們就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI那所以這部分這個泰德計畫我想算是非常的讓人值得期待那我知道你們還沒有正式開放\n146496\t165335\t據我了解的是公部門包含榮總中研院氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達就是要相關的合作取得這些就是這個這整個的過程我想這真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要那也有就是13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU\n166817\t183029\t﹏﹏\n183209\t200713\t我想針對我之前問的那個倫理機制所以本土的部分其實你們已經做到了那倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的沒有資料偏見這個部分那你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是說你們已經考慮了倫理因素將沿西國際相關技術並參索委員意見納入泰德設計的開發過程\n208596\t220210\t主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎?因為納入這兩個字我跟辦公室研究了很久還不清楚可不可以跟我們分享一下這個有一點技術的問題因為我們大家聽得懂的話告訴我們第一個就是說他在回答的時候\n225596\t249339\t我們現在台的引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊去驗測他會去問他然後給他一些這個所以是用一個檢測測試的方式因為我有看到新聞報導你們都有在測試嘛有點在教小朋友的這個概念那另外一個就是說針對被盜用或whatever事實上如果\n250020\t278185\t他這個對話引擎去念一些他沒有著作權的資料那未來我們會埋進去就這個時候他一念到那個東西馬上就會被發現就是如果他答出來的比如說具有不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的會在測試的結果裡面做修正是這樣嗎修正那另外一個也會讓這個擁有者知道說他東西被\n279588\t287433\t人民也有一定的信心喔但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊你們給我的回覆跟您剛的答覆我覺得這個倫理的這個議題就是我講的human in the loop society in the loop\n300621\t300641\t范雲\n327356\t355318\t甚至比其他的國家還做得更好那不知道那個主委可以就是說承諾往這個方向去努力嗎因為我這是需要我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊謝謝 這個的確必須要啦因為我剛剛講這個深層次人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人然後這是他的腦所以他的倫理法治道德觀念一定是要有我們台灣的想法跟思想這個我們會來做好啊\n355598\t380866\t因為你這個未來醫療啊氣象啊企業都會用到所以你們前端就是說做得好的話我想我們全國都會能夠享用跟升級好不好那主委這部分針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入這個就是人文社會那去思考倫理跟相關的部分的話那報告在兩個月之內再給我一份好不好就是規劃的話就是說OK好\n383227\t400006\t另外一題我想今天大家都很關心也非常期待就是這個精創台灣方案因為真的是我剛講我非常的肯定主委有這個10年的規劃那我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這有國科會的領導非常的好那你們會結合現在我們剛講的深層式AI\n404991\t405491\t主委可不可以簡要說明\n431999\t441986\t謝謝 委員 這個蠻正確的 事實上我們在盤點金創台灣計畫的時候以前的都會把它併入 就是一個更龐大的計畫不能重疊 因為有些會有關聯性的\n446869\t466886\t我相信您喔 那我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題啊之前那個人文科技齁 記不記得我問過說經費佔無非常的驚慌 驚訝 覺得就是說我們台灣的人文社會經費人才 我質詢也講過跟OECD國家比 我們是人文人才極低\n467566\t467586\t范雲議員\n490686\t511582\t相關的人才去研究才能夠整合到底經費有沒有增加後來我質詢過之後情況如何主委可以簡要說明嗎事實上那個是超過10億台幣就是八大裡面超過10億對對就人文科技這邊那事實上在這個比例是不是還是太低了你看淨零科技就1191對不對那個我跟委員報告這會有一個過程\n514864\t516046\t他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼要融入社會接到我們的製造業\n533288\t533308\t范雲議員\n556116\t556136\t范雲議員\n581051\t604807\t產業創新的來源就人文社會生活的一些感觸那一下子因為台灣以前是比較代工思維那你要慢慢過來我們這個全產業創新會讓更多的年輕朋友對人才也需要培養比如現在的博士生就要知道說往這個方向了也就是說因為原來這個是IC Design這些人大部分是半導體\n607889\t622177\t這兩群人怎麼借接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的主委因為時間的關係快到了我想因為您這個十年計畫精創台灣大家非常的期待八大前瞻也會整合到裡面\n622677\t645464\t是不是我很希望520之後您繼續領導那但是就是說我不知道您有沒有意願等等那是不是520前也給我一個人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的一個10年初步的規劃好不好如何預算慢慢的成長我想您的魄力跟遠見對人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的所以希望您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告規劃可以\n648227\t650332\t謝謝主委加油我們期待您繼續領導台灣更上一層我們也非常歡迎謝謝\n","txt":"主席\n主委早安我想整理今天要問什麼問題的這個禮拜真的發現這個主委任內非常有快創性針對重要的科技趨勢比如說今天有委員問過的本土生成式的AI還有就是大家都很關心的\n﹚范雲\n范雲 范雲\n但是今天還是希望要精進啦就是我們還是要能夠更好那我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好放鬆嘛要更好所以今天先請問那個深層室AI一年前\n去年3月15日的時候我當時就以國外的研究談到那個human in the loop society in the loop就是其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制那要讓它有臺位人位倫理性平等等所以當時提了三個要求第一個要降低資料庫的偏見第二個AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與\n決策過程第三個要研發人工道德行為者這樣的機制那你們辦公室都有跟我們回應那我們也非常的肯定我們看到就是去年6月我們就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI那所以這部分這個泰德計畫我想算是非常的讓人值得期待那我知道你們還沒有正式開放\n據我了解的是公部門包含榮總中研院氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達就是要相關的合作取得這些就是這個這整個的過程我想這真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要那也有就是13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU\n﹏﹏\n我想針對我之前問的那個倫理機制所以本土的部分其實你們已經做到了那倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的沒有資料偏見這個部分那你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是說你們已經考慮了倫理因素將沿西國際相關技術並參索委員意見納入泰德設計的開發過程\n主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎?因為納入這兩個字我跟辦公室研究了很久還不清楚可不可以跟我們分享一下這個有一點技術的問題因為我們大家聽得懂的話告訴我們第一個就是說他在回答的時候\n我們現在台的引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊去驗測他會去問他然後給他一些這個所以是用一個檢測測試的方式因為我有看到新聞報導你們都有在測試嘛有點在教小朋友的這個概念那另外一個就是說針對被盜用或whatever事實上如果\n他這個對話引擎去念一些他沒有著作權的資料那未來我們會埋進去就這個時候他一念到那個東西馬上就會被發現就是如果他答出來的比如說具有不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的會在測試的結果裡面做修正是這樣嗎修正那另外一個也會讓這個擁有者知道說他東西被\n人民也有一定的信心喔但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊你們給我的回覆跟您剛的答覆我覺得這個倫理的這個議題就是我講的human in the loop society in the loop\n范雲\n甚至比其他的國家還做得更好那不知道那個主委可以就是說承諾往這個方向去努力嗎因為我這是需要我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊謝謝 這個的確必須要啦因為我剛剛講這個深層次人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人然後這是他的腦所以他的倫理法治道德觀念一定是要有我們台灣的想法跟思想這個我們會來做好啊\n因為你這個未來醫療啊氣象啊企業都會用到所以你們前端就是說做得好的話我想我們全國都會能夠享用跟升級好不好那主委這部分針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入這個就是人文社會那去思考倫理跟相關的部分的話那報告在兩個月之內再給我一份好不好就是規劃的話就是說OK好\n另外一題我想今天大家都很關心也非常期待就是這個精創台灣方案因為真的是我剛講我非常的肯定主委有這個10年的規劃那我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這有國科會的領導非常的好那你們會結合現在我們剛講的深層式AI\n主委可不可以簡要說明\n謝謝 委員 這個蠻正確的 事實上我們在盤點金創台灣計畫的時候以前的都會把它併入 就是一個更龐大的計畫不能重疊 因為有些會有關聯性的\n我相信您喔 那我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題啊之前那個人文科技齁 記不記得我問過說經費佔無非常的驚慌 驚訝 覺得就是說我們台灣的人文社會經費人才 我質詢也講過跟OECD國家比 我們是人文人才極低\n范雲議員\n相關的人才去研究才能夠整合到底經費有沒有增加後來我質詢過之後情況如何主委可以簡要說明嗎事實上那個是超過10億台幣就是八大裡面超過10億對對就人文科技這邊那事實上在這個比例是不是還是太低了你看淨零科技就1191對不對那個我跟委員報告這會有一個過程\n他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼要融入社會接到我們的製造業\n范雲議員\n范雲議員\n產業創新的來源就人文社會生活的一些感觸那一下子因為台灣以前是比較代工思維那你要慢慢過來我們這個全產業創新會讓更多的年輕朋友對人才也需要培養比如現在的博士生就要知道說往這個方向了也就是說因為原來這個是IC Design這些人大部分是半導體\n這兩群人怎麼借接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的主委因為時間的關係快到了我想因為您這個十年計畫精創台灣大家非常的期待八大前瞻也會整合到裡面\n是不是我很希望520之後您繼續領導那但是就是說我不知道您有沒有意願等等那是不是520前也給我一個人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的一個10年初步的規劃好不好如何預算慢慢的成長我想您的魄力跟遠見對人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的所以希望您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告規劃可以\n謝謝主委加油我們期待您繼續領導台灣更上一層我們也非常歡迎謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.697 --> 00:03.977\n主席\n\n00:12.596 --> 00:17.738\n主委早安我想整理今天要問什麼問題的這個禮拜真的發現這個主委任內非常有快創性針對重要的科技趨勢比如說今天有委員問過的本土生成式的AI還有就是大家都很關心的\n\n00:34.164 --> 00:34.184\n﹚范雲\n\n00:55.603 --> 00:55.643\n范雲范雲\n\n01:16.579 --> 01:32.647\n但是今天還是希望要精進啦就是我們還是要能夠更好那我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好放鬆嘛要更好所以今天先請問那個深層室AI一年前\n\n01:33.647 --> 01:59.006\n去年3月15日的時候我當時就以國外的研究談到那個humanintheloopsocietyintheloop就是其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制那要讓它有臺位人位倫理性平等等所以當時提了三個要求第一個要降低資料庫的偏見第二個AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與\n\n02:00.767 --> 02:25.635\n決策過程第三個要研發人工道德行為者這樣的機制那你們辦公室都有跟我們回應那我們也非常的肯定我們看到就是去年6月我們就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI那所以這部分這個泰德計畫我想算是非常的讓人值得期待那我知道你們還沒有正式開放\n\n02:26.496 --> 02:45.335\n據我了解的是公部門包含榮總中研院氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達就是要相關的合作取得這些就是這個這整個的過程我想這真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要那也有就是13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU\n\n03:03.209 --> 03:20.713\n我想針對我之前問的那個倫理機制所以本土的部分其實你們已經做到了那倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的沒有資料偏見這個部分那你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是說你們已經考慮了倫理因素將沿西國際相關技術並參索委員意見納入泰德設計的開發過程\n\n03:28.596 --> 03:40.210\n主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎?因為納入這兩個字我跟辦公室研究了很久還不清楚可不可以跟我們分享一下這個有一點技術的問題因為我們大家聽得懂的話告訴我們第一個就是說他在回答的時候\n\n03:45.596 --> 04:09.339\n我們現在台的引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊去驗測他會去問他然後給他一些這個所以是用一個檢測測試的方式因為我有看到新聞報導你們都有在測試嘛有點在教小朋友的這個概念那另外一個就是說針對被盜用或whatever事實上如果\n\n04:10.020 --> 04:38.185\n他這個對話引擎去念一些他沒有著作權的資料那未來我們會埋進去就這個時候他一念到那個東西馬上就會被發現就是如果他答出來的比如說具有不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的會在測試的結果裡面做修正是這樣嗎修正那另外一個也會讓這個擁有者知道說他東西被\n\n04:39.588 --> 04:47.433\n人民也有一定的信心喔但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊你們給我的回覆跟您剛的答覆我覺得這個倫理的這個議題就是我講的humanintheloopsocietyintheloop\n\n05:00.621 --> 05:00.641\n范雲\n\n05:27.356 --> 05:55.318\n甚至比其他的國家還做得更好那不知道那個主委可以就是說承諾往這個方向去努力嗎因為我這是需要我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊謝謝這個的確必須要啦因為我剛剛講這個深層次人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人然後這是他的腦所以他的倫理法治道德觀念一定是要有我們台灣的想法跟思想這個我們會來做好啊\n\n05:55.598 --> 06:20.866\n因為你這個未來醫療啊氣象啊企業都會用到所以你們前端就是說做得好的話我想我們全國都會能夠享用跟升級好不好那主委這部分針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入這個就是人文社會那去思考倫理跟相關的部分的話那報告在兩個月之內再給我一份好不好就是規劃的話就是說OK好\n\n06:23.227 --> 06:40.006\n另外一題我想今天大家都很關心也非常期待就是這個精創台灣方案因為真的是我剛講我非常的肯定主委有這個10年的規劃那我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這有國科會的領導非常的好那你們會結合現在我們剛講的深層式AI\n\n06:44.991 --> 06:45.491\n主委可不可以簡要說明\n\n07:11.999 --> 07:21.986\n謝謝委員這個蠻正確的事實上我們在盤點金創台灣計畫的時候以前的都會把它併入就是一個更龐大的計畫不能重疊因為有些會有關聯性的\n\n07:26.869 --> 07:46.886\n我相信您喔那我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題啊之前那個人文科技齁記不記得我問過說經費佔無非常的驚慌驚訝覺得就是說我們台灣的人文社會經費人才我質詢也講過跟OECD國家比我們是人文人才極低\n\n07:47.566 --> 07:47.586\n范雲議員\n\n08:10.686 --> 08:31.582\n相關的人才去研究才能夠整合到底經費有沒有增加後來我質詢過之後情況如何主委可以簡要說明嗎事實上那個是超過10億台幣就是八大裡面超過10億對對就人文科技這邊那事實上在這個比例是不是還是太低了你看淨零科技就1191對不對那個我跟委員報告這會有一個過程\n\n08:34.864 --> 08:36.046\n他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼要融入社會接到我們的製造業\n\n08:53.288 --> 08:53.308\n范雲議員\n\n09:16.116 --> 09:16.136\n范雲議員\n\n09:41.051 --> 10:04.807\n產業創新的來源就人文社會生活的一些感觸那一下子因為台灣以前是比較代工思維那你要慢慢過來我們這個全產業創新會讓更多的年輕朋友對人才也需要培養比如現在的博士生就要知道說往這個方向了也就是說因為原來這個是ICDesign這些人大部分是半導體\n\n10:07.889 --> 10:22.177\n這兩群人怎麼借接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的主委因為時間的關係快到了我想因為您這個十年計畫精創台灣大家非常的期待八大前瞻也會整合到裡面\n\n10:22.677 --> 10:45.464\n是不是我很希望520之後您繼續領導那但是就是說我不知道您有沒有意願等等那是不是520前也給我一個人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的一個10年初步的規劃好不好如何預算慢慢的成長我想您的魄力跟遠見對人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的所以希望您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告規劃可以\n\n10:48.227 --> 10:50.332\n謝謝主委加油我們期待您繼續領導台灣更上一層我們也非常歡迎謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.697,"end":3.977,"text":"主席"},{"start":12.596,"end":17.738,"text":"主委早安我想整理今天要問什麼問題的這個禮拜真的發現這個主委任內非常有快創性針對重要的科技趨勢比如說今天有委員問過的本土生成式的AI還有就是大家都很關心的"},{"start":34.164,"end":34.184,"text":"﹚范雲"},{"start":55.603,"end":55.643,"text":"范雲 范雲"},{"start":76.579,"end":92.647,"text":"但是今天還是希望要精進啦就是我們還是要能夠更好那我們立委的監督力道也不能夠因為你們做得很好放鬆嘛要更好所以今天先請問那個深層室AI一年前"},{"start":93.647,"end":119.006,"text":"去年3月15日的時候我當時就以國外的研究談到那個human in the loop society in the loop就是其實AI生成式的設計中應該要納入倫理機制那要讓它有臺位人位倫理性平等等所以當時提了三個要求第一個要降低資料庫的偏見第二個AI的決策過程要加入人為跟社會參與"},{"start":120.767,"end":145.635,"text":"決策過程第三個要研發人工道德行為者這樣的機制那你們辦公室都有跟我們回應那我們也非常的肯定我們看到就是去年6月我們就第一次發布自主開發的可信任的生成式AI那所以這部分這個泰德計畫我想算是非常的讓人值得期待那我知道你們還沒有正式開放"},{"start":146.496,"end":165.335,"text":"據我了解的是公部門包含榮總中研院氣象等等這些單位都已經跟你們表達就是要相關的合作取得這些就是這個這整個的過程我想這真的是對我們未來的國家發展很重要那也有就是13家廠商跟你們簽署了MOU"},{"start":166.817,"end":183.029,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":183.209,"end":200.713,"text":"我想針對我之前問的那個倫理機制所以本土的部分其實你們已經做到了那倫理機制涉及到我剛剛所講的沒有資料偏見這個部分那你辦公室去年5月給我的回應是說你們已經考慮了倫理因素將沿西國際相關技術並參索委員意見納入泰德設計的開發過程"},{"start":208.596,"end":220.21,"text":"主委可以講一下你們是怎麼納入的嗎?因為納入這兩個字我跟辦公室研究了很久還不清楚可不可以跟我們分享一下這個有一點技術的問題因為我們大家聽得懂的話告訴我們第一個就是說他在回答的時候"},{"start":225.596,"end":249.339,"text":"我們現在台的引擎事實上有另外一支計畫在數位部那邊去驗測他會去問他然後給他一些這個所以是用一個檢測測試的方式因為我有看到新聞報導你們都有在測試嘛有點在教小朋友的這個概念那另外一個就是說針對被盜用或whatever事實上如果"},{"start":250.02,"end":278.185,"text":"他這個對話引擎去念一些他沒有著作權的資料那未來我們會埋進去就這個時候他一念到那個東西馬上就會被發現就是如果他答出來的比如說具有不夠具有多元性或是在倫理上其實有偏誤的會在測試的結果裡面做修正是這樣嗎修正那另外一個也會讓這個擁有者知道說他東西被"},{"start":279.588,"end":287.433,"text":"人民也有一定的信心喔但是我還是覺得從我看到的資訊你們給我的回覆跟您剛的答覆我覺得這個倫理的這個議題就是我講的human in the loop society in the loop"},{"start":300.621,"end":300.641,"text":"范雲"},{"start":327.356,"end":355.318,"text":"甚至比其他的國家還做得更好那不知道那個主委可以就是說承諾往這個方向去努力嗎因為我這是需要我知道這個執行起來都不容易啊謝謝 這個的確必須要啦因為我剛剛講這個深層次人工智慧未來應該是在每個家庭都會有一個小機器人然後這是他的腦所以他的倫理法治道德觀念一定是要有我們台灣的想法跟思想這個我們會來做好啊"},{"start":355.598,"end":380.866,"text":"因為你這個未來醫療啊氣象啊企業都會用到所以你們前端就是說做得好的話我想我們全國都會能夠享用跟升級好不好那主委這部分針對你們如何在前端而不是在後端引入這個就是人文社會那去思考倫理跟相關的部分的話那報告在兩個月之內再給我一份好不好就是規劃的話就是說OK好"},{"start":383.227,"end":400.006,"text":"另外一題我想今天大家都很關心也非常期待就是這個精創台灣方案因為真的是我剛講我非常的肯定主委有這個10年的規劃那我也覺得國家資源必須要放在這有國科會的領導非常的好那你們會結合現在我們剛講的深層式AI"},{"start":404.991,"end":405.491,"text":"主委可不可以簡要說明"},{"start":431.999,"end":441.986,"text":"謝謝 委員 這個蠻正確的 事實上我們在盤點金創台灣計畫的時候以前的都會把它併入 就是一個更龐大的計畫不能重疊 因為有些會有關聯性的"},{"start":446.869,"end":466.886,"text":"我相信您喔 那我就追問一個我之前也問過的問題啊之前那個人文科技齁 記不記得我問過說經費佔無非常的驚慌 驚訝 覺得就是說我們台灣的人文社會經費人才 我質詢也講過跟OECD國家比 我們是人文人才極低"},{"start":467.566,"end":467.586,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":490.686,"end":511.582,"text":"相關的人才去研究才能夠整合到底經費有沒有增加後來我質詢過之後情況如何主委可以簡要說明嗎事實上那個是超過10億台幣就是八大裡面超過10億對對就人文科技這邊那事實上在這個比例是不是還是太低了你看淨零科技就1191對不對那個我跟委員報告這會有一個過程"},{"start":514.864,"end":516.046,"text":"他們來看看未來臺灣怎麼要融入社會接到我們的製造業"},{"start":533.288,"end":533.308,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":556.116,"end":556.136,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":581.051,"end":604.807,"text":"產業創新的來源就人文社會生活的一些感觸那一下子因為台灣以前是比較代工思維那你要慢慢過來我們這個全產業創新會讓更多的年輕朋友對人才也需要培養比如現在的博士生就要知道說往這個方向了也就是說因為原來這個是IC Design這些人大部分是半導體"},{"start":607.889,"end":622.177,"text":"這兩群人怎麼借接在一起是這個計畫第一步要做的主委因為時間的關係快到了我想因為您這個十年計畫精創台灣大家非常的期待八大前瞻也會整合到裡面"},{"start":622.677,"end":645.464,"text":"是不是我很希望520之後您繼續領導那但是就是說我不知道您有沒有意願等等那是不是520前也給我一個人文社會科學如何整合在裡面的一個10年初步的規劃好不好如何預算慢慢的成長我想您的魄力跟遠見對人文社會科學的關注都是非常重要的所以希望您520前可不可以給我們辦公室一個初步的報告規劃可以"},{"start":648.227,"end":650.332,"text":"謝謝主委加油我們期待您繼續領導台灣更上一層我們也非常歡迎謝謝"}]}}}}