{"id":149893,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d2313521ef217c9b2eb76c51d5fa63d75d4c3df8ba9b0039caa7a632a903c5076b42da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:36:51 - 11:42:11","影片長度":"00:05:20","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣中油股份有限公司。(詢答)【3月11日、13日及14日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-3"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":320,"end_time":"2024-03-14T11:42:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:36:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時36分）謝謝主席。部長跟中油董事長，有請，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長跟李董事長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。本席今天要稍微瞭解一下中油煉油廠遷廠的一些狀況，因為中油煉油廠在本席桃園第1選區，這個題目已經討論了二、三十年了，大家都在談這樣子的事情，我就開宗明義直接問，請董事長也好或者部長也好，誰回答都OK。從務實、規劃的角度而言，到底做不做得到遷廠這件事情？請回答。"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，事實上過去桃園市政府一直都很關心，包括地方人士都很關心……"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。"],["李董事長順欽：當時其實有一個先決條件，就是要先建後拆。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["李董事長順欽：先建後拆就是說建在哪裡，以及哪裡有地可以蓋煉油廠這個問題，所以其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度遷移的前提條件，目前桃油廠也針對公安、環保在做改善，包括跟地方共生這方面來做……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這一段我們待會再討論。我就問，講說先建後遷，現在在建的部分，你的覓地狀況現在有標的嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：因為每個地方評估起來都不適合，只要是在會上談到這個地方，當地的居民就……"],["牛委員煦庭：大家都會反對，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：對，當地居民都反對。"],["牛委員煦庭：直觀都會遇到這樣的事情。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以現在都沒有任何標的，已經完全歸零，連庫存跟考量的點都沒有嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：所以現在我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，請中油會後提供現在如果有遷廠可能性的規劃、相關可能性的方案，好不好？因為今天我們時間有限。"],["李董事長順欽：是，好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們再往後談，當然我們也從世界趨勢開始談。請問部長，淨零碳排是不是世界趨勢？"],["王部長美花：當然是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以以經濟部的考量跟發展，未來我們在煉油的需求跟相關的部分，趨勢上來說，它是上漲的、還是下降？"],["王部長美花：一定是會下降的。"],["牛委員煦庭：一定會下降，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法？"],["李董事長順欽：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。所以我們現在講，遷廠是大家講理想性比較高、可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策，這個本席願意理解，哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望它搬家，對不對？但是大家做事要務實，我也跟我的選民講，這事要執行起來是有困難的，所以大家可以從務實的角度來考量，也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在遷廠的議題上有具體的進展，可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢，另外也是基於廠區的活用，務實的做法是轉型，請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法？"],["李董事長順欽：事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向，看看有沒有這個可能性，就是就地轉型，轉向綠色能源方面。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，綠色能源是其中一種，本席現在具體要求轉型的幾個方向，我們要為我們選區的選民請命。大家擔心第一個叫做高污染，第二個擔心它高危險。所以本席要求老舊的鍋爐如果基於世界的趨勢、煉油的需求在下降，就應該用退場的方式來處理。傳統以來都是用更新設備的方式處理，這是一種邏輯，可是如果它已經沒有這樣的需要、已經開始下修的時候，其實就是用部分退場、部分處理的方式來處理，就不要再新設設備。你要新設設備可以降低污染，這當然OK，但是老舊的、如果已經不堪使用的就直接退場，這樣子污染會下降，公共安全的問題也會下降，這是第一個。","第二個，導入綠能跟儲能相關比較進步的設備，也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向，也許是氫能或什麼東西、一些研究的設施，它相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載，某些層面也切合中油的轉型方向，這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展。","第三個是有關閒置用地的活化，如果既有的空間可以活用，可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共榮，完成敦親睦鄰。","以上這3個方向是本席藉由這一次質詢要具體要求的，希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究，會後要提供書面的資料讓本席來做參考，可以嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：好，可以，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後再跟召委借一下下時間收個尾，好不好？最後一個是，桃園市政府現在跟中油應該定期地有聚會嘛？"],["李董事長順欽：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：就在討論轉型的具體配套措施。"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然都跟桃園市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調，本席希望這種東西應該透明化。我講敦親睦鄰很重要，讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛，才會讓大家安心，這是敦親睦鄰的一部分。所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的會報時間，我也希望中油跟周邊的社區里鄰長、議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間，讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程，可以嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：是，事實上我們跟當地的里長、還有相關的民意代表都有在……他們都理解。"],["牛委員煦庭：它可能要用更開放的方式來進行，廣納周邊居民的意見，我想這樣子才是做敦親睦鄰，好不好？"],["李董事長順欽：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這部分請部長跟董事長多加研議，可以嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：是，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了！"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來我們請顏寬恒、顏寬恒，顏寬恒委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","林德福、林德福，林德福委員不在。","我們另外準備4分鐘給謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-3","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:10,054\n好謝謝主席這個部長跟這個中油董事長有請謝謝來請部長跟李董事長\n\n2\n00:00:15,869 --> 00:00:41,969\n市長、吳安本期今天要稍微了解一下這個中油煉油廠牽廠的一些狀況因為這個中油煉油廠在本期台灣第一選區那這個題目已經討論了二三十年了大家都在談這樣子的一個事情那我們就開宗明就直接問請董事長也好或者是部長也好我們誰回答都OK從務實規劃的角度而言到底做不做得到牽廠這件事情請回答\n\n3\n00:00:42,905 --> 00:00:57,364\n根文報告事實上這個過去桃園市政委一直都很關心包括地方連市都很關心那當時其實有一個先決條件就是說要先見後猜那先見後猜就是說建在哪裡地哪裡有可以來蓋林屋場這個問題\n\n4\n00:00:58,465 --> 00:01:21,422\n所以這個其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度的這樣子一個牽引的一個一個前提條件所以其實目前淘廠也針對公安環保在做改善包括跟地方共生這樣一個方面好這段我們待會再討論我就問嘛就是講說先見後簽嘛那現在在建的部分你的密地的狀況現在有標的嗎因為\n\n5\n00:01:24,653 --> 00:01:37,301\n每個地方評估起來都不適合只要是在這個會上談到這個地方當地的大家都會反對對不對?對當地的職官都會遇到這樣的事情所以現在都沒有任何已經完全歸零連庫存跟考量一點都沒有嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:38,674 --> 00:01:55,964\n所以現在就是說我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論好沒關係這個請中油這邊你會後提供就是你現在如果有牽場的可能性的規劃相關可能性的方案跟那個你會後提供給我好不好因為今天我們時間有限那我們就談往後談但我們也從世界趨勢開始談請問部長這個淨林碳排是不是世界趨勢\n\n7\n00:02:00,601 --> 00:02:15,012\n當然是所以以經濟部的考量跟發展未來我們在煉油的需求跟這些相關的趨勢上來說他是上漲還是下降一定是會下降的一定是會下降對不對中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法是的好所以我們現在講啊牽場是一個\n\n8\n00:02:17,253 --> 00:02:44,371\n大家講理想性比較高可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策這個本席願意理解哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望他搬家對不對但是大家做事要務實我也跟我的選民講這是要執行起來是有困難的所以大家可以用務實的角度來考量也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在牽場的議題上有具體的進展可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢另外也是基於場區的活用務實的做法是轉型\n\n9\n00:02:46,093 --> 00:03:02,450\n請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法?是,事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向有沒有這個可能性就地轉型轉向綠色能源方面對,綠色能源是其中一種本期現在具體要求轉型的方向我們要為我們選區的選民請命\n\n10\n00:03:04,813 --> 00:03:30,605\n大家擔心的第一個叫做他高汙染第二個擔心他高危險所以有本期要求就老舊的鍋爐啊如果基於世界的趨勢煉油的需求在下降就應該是用退場的方式來處理你讓傳統來我都是用更新設備的方式處理這是一種邏輯可是如果他已經沒有這樣的需要應該下秋的時候他其實就是用部分退場部分廚藝的方式來處理就不要再新設設備你要新設設備可以降低\n\n11\n00:03:31,826 --> 00:03:49,088\n這個汙染這當然OK但是老舊的如果已經不堪使用了直接退場這樣子汙染會下降公共安全的問題也會下降這第一個第二個導入綠能跟儲能相關的比較進步的這個也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向也許是氫能阿或什麼東西的一些研究的一些設施阿\n\n12\n00:03:49,548 --> 00:04:18,276\n他相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載某些層面也切合這個中油的轉型方向這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展第三個是有關閒置用地的活化好不好閒置用地的活化如果既有的空間可以活用可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共融完成敦親睦鄰這三個方向是本期藉由這次質詢要具體要求的希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究會後要提供書面的資料讓本期來做參考可以嗎\n\n13\n00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:41,767\n好可以沒問題就再跟昭瑞接一下下收個尾好不好最後一個是我們跟桃園市政府桃園市政府現在跟中油應該是有定期的有聚會嘛就是在討論轉型的這樣子的一個具體配套措施那既然都跟桃園市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調本期是希望這個東西跟他透明化嘛我講敦俊木林很重要讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛\n\n14\n00:04:42,947 --> 00:04:58,459\n才會讓大家安心這是敦親睦鄰的一部分所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的匯報時間我也希望中油可以跟周邊的社區李林長議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程可以嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:02,262 --> 00:05:02,542\n謝謝牛煦庭委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3902\t10054\t好謝謝主席這個部長跟這個中油董事長有請謝謝來請部長跟李董事長\n15869\t41969\t市長、吳安本期今天要稍微了解一下這個中油煉油廠牽廠的一些狀況因為這個中油煉油廠在本期台灣第一選區那這個題目已經討論了二三十年了大家都在談這樣子的一個事情那我們就開宗明就直接問請董事長也好或者是部長也好我們誰回答都OK從務實規劃的角度而言到底做不做得到牽廠這件事情請回答\n42905\t57364\t根文報告事實上這個過去桃園市政委一直都很關心包括地方連市都很關心那當時其實有一個先決條件就是說要先見後猜那先見後猜就是說建在哪裡地哪裡有可以來蓋林屋場這個問題\n58465\t81422\t所以這個其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度的這樣子一個牽引的一個一個前提條件所以其實目前淘廠也針對公安環保在做改善包括跟地方共生這樣一個方面好這段我們待會再討論我就問嘛就是講說先見後簽嘛那現在在建的部分你的密地的狀況現在有標的嗎因為\n84653\t97301\t每個地方評估起來都不適合只要是在這個會上談到這個地方當地的 大家都會反對對不對?對當地的 職官都會遇到這樣的事情所以現在都沒有任何已經完全歸零連庫存跟考量一點都沒有嗎?\n98674\t115964\t所以現在就是說我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論好沒關係這個請中油這邊你會後提供就是你現在如果有牽場的可能性的規劃相關可能性的方案跟那個你會後提供給我好不好因為今天我們時間有限那我們就談往後談但我們也從世界趨勢開始談請問部長這個淨林碳排是不是世界趨勢\n120601\t135012\t當然是所以以經濟部的考量跟發展未來我們在煉油的需求跟這些相關的趨勢上來說他是上漲還是下降一定是會下降的一定是會下降對不對中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法是的好所以我們現在講啊牽場是一個\n137253\t164371\t大家講理想性比較高可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策這個本席願意理解哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望他搬家對不對但是大家做事要務實我也跟我的選民講這是要執行起來是有困難的所以大家可以用務實的角度來考量也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在牽場的議題上有具體的進展可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢另外也是基於場區的活用務實的做法是轉型\n166093\t182450\t請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法?是,事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向有沒有這個可能性就地轉型轉向綠色能源方面對,綠色能源是其中一種本期現在具體要求轉型的方向我們要為我們選區的選民請命\n184813\t210605\t大家擔心的第一個叫做他高汙染第二個擔心他高危險所以有本期要求就老舊的鍋爐啊如果基於世界的趨勢煉油的需求在下降就應該是用退場的方式來處理你讓傳統來我都是用更新設備的方式處理這是一種邏輯可是如果他已經沒有這樣的需要應該下秋的時候他其實就是用部分退場部分廚藝的方式來處理就不要再新設設備你要新設設備可以降低\n211826\t229088\t這個汙染這當然OK但是老舊的如果已經不堪使用了直接退場這樣子汙染會下降公共安全的問題也會下降這第一個第二個導入綠能跟儲能相關的比較進步的這個也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向也許是氫能阿或什麼東西的一些研究的一些設施阿\n229548\t258276\t他相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載某些層面也切合這個中油的轉型方向這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展第三個是有關閒置用地的活化好不好閒置用地的活化如果既有的空間可以活用可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共融完成敦親睦鄰這三個方向是本期藉由這次質詢要具體要求的希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究會後要提供書面的資料讓本期來做參考可以嗎\n259156\t281767\t好可以沒問題就再跟昭瑞接一下下收個尾好不好最後一個是我們跟桃園市政府桃園市政府現在跟中油應該是有定期的有聚會嘛就是在討論轉型的這樣子的一個具體配套措施那既然都跟桃園市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調本期是希望這個東西跟他透明化嘛我講敦俊木林很重要讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛\n282947\t298459\t才會讓大家安心這是敦親睦鄰的一部分所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的匯報時間我也希望中油可以跟周邊的社區李林長議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程可以嗎?\n302262\t302542\t謝謝牛煦庭委員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席這個部長跟這個中油董事長有請謝謝來請部長跟李董事長\n市長、吳安本期今天要稍微了解一下這個中油煉油廠牽廠的一些狀況因為這個中油煉油廠在本期台灣第一選區那這個題目已經討論了二三十年了大家都在談這樣子的一個事情那我們就開宗明就直接問請董事長也好或者是部長也好我們誰回答都OK從務實規劃的角度而言到底做不做得到牽廠這件事情請回答\n根文報告事實上這個過去桃園市政委一直都很關心包括地方連市都很關心那當時其實有一個先決條件就是說要先見後猜那先見後猜就是說建在哪裡地哪裡有可以來蓋林屋場這個問題\n所以這個其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度的這樣子一個牽引的一個一個前提條件所以其實目前淘廠也針對公安環保在做改善包括跟地方共生這樣一個方面好這段我們待會再討論我就問嘛就是講說先見後簽嘛那現在在建的部分你的密地的狀況現在有標的嗎因為\n每個地方評估起來都不適合只要是在這個會上談到這個地方當地的 大家都會反對對不對?對當地的 職官都會遇到這樣的事情所以現在都沒有任何已經完全歸零連庫存跟考量一點都沒有嗎?\n所以現在就是說我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論好沒關係這個請中油這邊你會後提供就是你現在如果有牽場的可能性的規劃相關可能性的方案跟那個你會後提供給我好不好因為今天我們時間有限那我們就談往後談但我們也從世界趨勢開始談請問部長這個淨林碳排是不是世界趨勢\n當然是所以以經濟部的考量跟發展未來我們在煉油的需求跟這些相關的趨勢上來說他是上漲還是下降一定是會下降的一定是會下降對不對中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法是的好所以我們現在講啊牽場是一個\n大家講理想性比較高可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策這個本席願意理解哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望他搬家對不對但是大家做事要務實我也跟我的選民講這是要執行起來是有困難的所以大家可以用務實的角度來考量也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在牽場的議題上有具體的進展可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢另外也是基於場區的活用務實的做法是轉型\n請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法?是,事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向有沒有這個可能性就地轉型轉向綠色能源方面對,綠色能源是其中一種本期現在具體要求轉型的方向我們要為我們選區的選民請命\n大家擔心的第一個叫做他高汙染第二個擔心他高危險所以有本期要求就老舊的鍋爐啊如果基於世界的趨勢煉油的需求在下降就應該是用退場的方式來處理你讓傳統來我都是用更新設備的方式處理這是一種邏輯可是如果他已經沒有這樣的需要應該下秋的時候他其實就是用部分退場部分廚藝的方式來處理就不要再新設設備你要新設設備可以降低\n這個汙染這當然OK但是老舊的如果已經不堪使用了直接退場這樣子汙染會下降公共安全的問題也會下降這第一個第二個導入綠能跟儲能相關的比較進步的這個也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向也許是氫能阿或什麼東西的一些研究的一些設施阿\n他相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載某些層面也切合這個中油的轉型方向這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展第三個是有關閒置用地的活化好不好閒置用地的活化如果既有的空間可以活用可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共融完成敦親睦鄰這三個方向是本期藉由這次質詢要具體要求的希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究會後要提供書面的資料讓本期來做參考可以嗎\n好可以沒問題就再跟昭瑞接一下下收個尾好不好最後一個是我們跟桃園市政府桃園市政府現在跟中油應該是有定期的有聚會嘛就是在討論轉型的這樣子的一個具體配套措施那既然都跟桃園市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調本期是希望這個東西跟他透明化嘛我講敦俊木林很重要讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛\n才會讓大家安心這是敦親睦鄰的一部分所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的匯報時間我也希望中油可以跟周邊的社區李林長議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程可以嗎?\n謝謝牛煦庭委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.902 --> 00:10.054\n好謝謝主席這個部長跟這個中油董事長有請謝謝來請部長跟李董事長\n\n00:15.869 --> 00:41.969\n市長、吳安本期今天要稍微了解一下這個中油煉油廠牽廠的一些狀況因為這個中油煉油廠在本期台灣第一選區那這個題目已經討論了二三十年了大家都在談這樣子的一個事情那我們就開宗明就直接問請董事長也好或者是部長也好我們誰回答都OK從務實規劃的角度而言到底做不做得到牽廠這件事情請回答\n\n00:42.905 --> 00:57.364\n根文報告事實上這個過去桃園市政委一直都很關心包括地方連市都很關心那當時其實有一個先決條件就是說要先見後猜那先見後猜就是說建在哪裡地哪裡有可以來蓋林屋場這個問題\n\n00:58.465 --> 01:21.422\n所以這個其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度的這樣子一個牽引的一個一個前提條件所以其實目前淘廠也針對公安環保在做改善包括跟地方共生這樣一個方面好這段我們待會再討論我就問嘛就是講說先見後簽嘛那現在在建的部分你的密地的狀況現在有標的嗎因為\n\n01:24.653 --> 01:37.301\n每個地方評估起來都不適合只要是在這個會上談到這個地方當地的大家都會反對對不對?對當地的職官都會遇到這樣的事情所以現在都沒有任何已經完全歸零連庫存跟考量一點都沒有嗎?\n\n01:38.674 --> 01:55.964\n所以現在就是說我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論好沒關係這個請中油這邊你會後提供就是你現在如果有牽場的可能性的規劃相關可能性的方案跟那個你會後提供給我好不好因為今天我們時間有限那我們就談往後談但我們也從世界趨勢開始談請問部長這個淨林碳排是不是世界趨勢\n\n02:00.601 --> 02:15.012\n當然是所以以經濟部的考量跟發展未來我們在煉油的需求跟這些相關的趨勢上來說他是上漲還是下降一定是會下降的一定是會下降對不對中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法是的好所以我們現在講啊牽場是一個\n\n02:17.253 --> 02:44.371\n大家講理想性比較高可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策這個本席願意理解哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望他搬家對不對但是大家做事要務實我也跟我的選民講這是要執行起來是有困難的所以大家可以用務實的角度來考量也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在牽場的議題上有具體的進展可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢另外也是基於場區的活用務實的做法是轉型\n\n02:46.093 --> 03:02.450\n請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法?是,事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向有沒有這個可能性就地轉型轉向綠色能源方面對,綠色能源是其中一種本期現在具體要求轉型的方向我們要為我們選區的選民請命\n\n03:04.813 --> 03:30.605\n大家擔心的第一個叫做他高汙染第二個擔心他高危險所以有本期要求就老舊的鍋爐啊如果基於世界的趨勢煉油的需求在下降就應該是用退場的方式來處理你讓傳統來我都是用更新設備的方式處理這是一種邏輯可是如果他已經沒有這樣的需要應該下秋的時候他其實就是用部分退場部分廚藝的方式來處理就不要再新設設備你要新設設備可以降低\n\n03:31.826 --> 03:49.088\n這個汙染這當然OK但是老舊的如果已經不堪使用了直接退場這樣子汙染會下降公共安全的問題也會下降這第一個第二個導入綠能跟儲能相關的比較進步的這個也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向也許是氫能阿或什麼東西的一些研究的一些設施阿\n\n03:49.548 --> 04:18.276\n他相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載某些層面也切合這個中油的轉型方向這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展第三個是有關閒置用地的活化好不好閒置用地的活化如果既有的空間可以活用可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共融完成敦親睦鄰這三個方向是本期藉由這次質詢要具體要求的希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究會後要提供書面的資料讓本期來做參考可以嗎\n\n04:19.156 --> 04:41.767\n好可以沒問題就再跟昭瑞接一下下收個尾好不好最後一個是我們跟桃園市政府桃園市政府現在跟中油應該是有定期的有聚會嘛就是在討論轉型的這樣子的一個具體配套措施那既然都跟桃園市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調本期是希望這個東西跟他透明化嘛我講敦俊木林很重要讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛\n\n04:42.947 --> 04:58.459\n才會讓大家安心這是敦親睦鄰的一部分所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的匯報時間我也希望中油可以跟周邊的社區李林長議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程可以嗎?\n\n05:02.262 --> 05:02.542\n謝謝牛煦庭委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.902,"end":10.054,"text":"好謝謝主席這個部長跟這個中油董事長有請謝謝來請部長跟李董事長"},{"start":15.869,"end":41.969,"text":"市長、吳安本期今天要稍微了解一下這個中油煉油廠牽廠的一些狀況因為這個中油煉油廠在本期台灣第一選區那這個題目已經討論了二三十年了大家都在談這樣子的一個事情那我們就開宗明就直接問請董事長也好或者是部長也好我們誰回答都OK從務實規劃的角度而言到底做不做得到牽廠這件事情請回答"},{"start":42.905,"end":57.364,"text":"根文報告事實上這個過去桃園市政委一直都很關心包括地方連市都很關心那當時其實有一個先決條件就是說要先見後猜那先見後猜就是說建在哪裡地哪裡有可以來蓋林屋場這個問題"},{"start":58.465,"end":81.422,"text":"所以這個其實一直都沒有辦法得到適度的這樣子一個牽引的一個一個前提條件所以其實目前淘廠也針對公安環保在做改善包括跟地方共生這樣一個方面好這段我們待會再討論我就問嘛就是講說先見後簽嘛那現在在建的部分你的密地的狀況現在有標的嗎因為"},{"start":84.653,"end":97.301,"text":"每個地方評估起來都不適合只要是在這個會上談到這個地方當地的 大家都會反對對不對?對當地的 職官都會遇到這樣的事情所以現在都沒有任何已經完全歸零連庫存跟考量一點都沒有嗎?"},{"start":98.674,"end":115.964,"text":"所以現在就是說我們跟桃園市政府其實也一直在討論好沒關係這個請中油這邊你會後提供就是你現在如果有牽場的可能性的規劃相關可能性的方案跟那個你會後提供給我好不好因為今天我們時間有限那我們就談往後談但我們也從世界趨勢開始談請問部長這個淨林碳排是不是世界趨勢"},{"start":120.601,"end":135.012,"text":"當然是所以以經濟部的考量跟發展未來我們在煉油的需求跟這些相關的趨勢上來說他是上漲還是下降一定是會下降的一定是會下降對不對中油董事長同不同意這樣的說法是的好所以我們現在講啊牽場是一個"},{"start":137.253,"end":164.371,"text":"大家講理想性比較高可是實務上做法比較困難的一個政治決策這個本席願意理解哪怕我選區的選民其實都希望他搬家對不對但是大家做事要務實我也跟我的選民講這是要執行起來是有困難的所以大家可以用務實的角度來考量也許一時半刻我們沒有辦法在牽場的議題上有具體的進展可是我希望可以因應全世界的趨勢另外也是基於場區的活用務實的做法是轉型"},{"start":166.093,"end":182.45,"text":"請問部長跟董事長同不同意這樣子的看法?是,事實上我們跟市政府一直都在往這個方向有沒有這個可能性就地轉型轉向綠色能源方面對,綠色能源是其中一種本期現在具體要求轉型的方向我們要為我們選區的選民請命"},{"start":184.813,"end":210.605,"text":"大家擔心的第一個叫做他高汙染第二個擔心他高危險所以有本期要求就老舊的鍋爐啊如果基於世界的趨勢煉油的需求在下降就應該是用退場的方式來處理你讓傳統來我都是用更新設備的方式處理這是一種邏輯可是如果他已經沒有這樣的需要應該下秋的時候他其實就是用部分退場部分廚藝的方式來處理就不要再新設設備你要新設設備可以降低"},{"start":211.826,"end":229.088,"text":"這個汙染這當然OK但是老舊的如果已經不堪使用了直接退場這樣子汙染會下降公共安全的問題也會下降這第一個第二個導入綠能跟儲能相關的比較進步的這個也可以讓中油找到新的發展方向也許是氫能阿或什麼東西的一些研究的一些設施阿"},{"start":229.548,"end":258.276,"text":"他相對來講不會有這麼大的環境負載某些層面也切合這個中油的轉型方向這些東西我希望可以看到一些具體的進展第三個是有關閒置用地的活化好不好閒置用地的活化如果既有的空間可以活用可以撥交桃園市政府跟社區共融完成敦親睦鄰這三個方向是本期藉由這次質詢要具體要求的希望部長跟董事長回去做一下研究會後要提供書面的資料讓本期來做參考可以嗎"},{"start":259.156,"end":281.767,"text":"好可以沒問題就再跟昭瑞接一下下收個尾好不好最後一個是我們跟桃園市政府桃園市政府現在跟中油應該是有定期的有聚會嘛就是在討論轉型的這樣子的一個具體配套措施那既然都跟桃園市政府會定期來做溝通跟協調本期是希望這個東西跟他透明化嘛我講敦俊木林很重要讓周邊的社區居民知道我們在幹嘛"},{"start":282.947,"end":298.459,"text":"才會讓大家安心這是敦親睦鄰的一部分所以既然跟桃園市政府有固定的匯報時間我也希望中油可以跟周邊的社區李林長議員、立法委員等等民意代表也有一個固定報告的時間讓大家一起參與這個煉油廠務實轉型的工程可以嗎?"},{"start":302.262,"end":302.542,"text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員"}]}}}}