{"id":149903,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149903","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353bebded42b179b3308cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a60829630984fb1b6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:56:23 - 12:01:17","影片長度":"00:04:54","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":294,"end_time":"2024-03-14T12:01:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T11:56:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1421,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時56分）謝謝主席。有請環境部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長午安。今天要針對大火公害案來提出質詢，最近這一段時間倉儲大火數量是非常多的，而且造成民眾的困擾，比想像中要嚴重很多。最典型的例子當然是發生在本席的選區桃園第一選區，2022年3月10日蘆竹美福倉儲大火，過了幾天之後，涂委員的選區楊梅家樂福物流中心也大火，你看，短短幾天就有兩場。最近新北泰山的工廠大火；PChome林口倉庫大火，到去年9月屏東明揚倉儲大火，打火弟兄也犧牲了，一直到最近，大家印象非常深刻的應該是2月20日深坑鋰電池廠倉儲大火。這些大火除了造成火災本身的災損之外，也造成了非常嚴重的公害，部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格處分？"],["薛部長富盛：這些公害當然檢察官有介入調查，假如有違反相關法令，一定會受到懲罰。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，您說得真好，公害如果受到了調查，而且清楚之後，會受到處罰，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟部長就在這裡報告，我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思，你知道美福大火那個惡臭整整持續了快要三個月，火災本身的惡臭接近三個禮拜，後續的腐肉惡臭持續了三個月，但是這些嚴重的污染、異味，對於蘆竹的鄉親造成衝擊，最後的結論竟然是只能重罰6,000元，這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情。因為今天時間有限，我就不多鋪陳，直接來做說明，這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候，當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防制法來開罰，但是部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：條文我當然沒辦法記得……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係。"],["薛部長富盛：但是基本上只要發生任何火災，我們有一個環境事故處理……我們都馬上會去。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，都按照法條，我跟部長講，開罰的法條就是空污法第三十二條，第三十二條講什麼？就是管理不當產生自燃，但是法條詳細來說，叫做堆置管理不當產生自燃，就產業的角度，業主當然就會說這個又不是堆置不當，而是電器因素，是因為電線走火，奇奇怪怪的理由就來了。就法論法的過程之中，判下去以後才發現，這個法條好像還真的不夠完備，所以到了最後，明明可以重罰500萬，然後最後都是訴願撤銷，到最後只剩不痛不癢的那種法條可以罰，就變成重罰6,000元。本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐的，而且是非常誇張的，追根究柢為什麼我們用第三十二條開罰？我後來仔細看了一下，如果不用第三十二條開罰，連開罰的法條都沒有！針對這種火災造成的公害，我們從來沒有對產業課以任何的責任，這是這個案子背後的通案問題。部長，你要回答一下嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告一下，惡臭這種概念，事實上，對執法單位來講也是一個挑戰。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，因為要舉證，要有異味監測的一些機制，這我們另外再講，但是不管怎麼樣這幾場火災包含美福大火也好，深坑大火也好，顯而易見是有害物質啊！你的監測機制我都非常支持，就是政府要加碼讓它完備，但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的，我們該有修法了吧？以美福倉儲為例，有兩條很重要的法要修，第一條就是空污法第三十二條定的管理不當的範圍，我們應該要有具體的檢討，除了堆置之外，是不是有操作的問題、電器的問題要納入，不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚？第二個是廢棄物清理，腐肉放在那個地方發臭，說到廢棄物清理，很遺憾倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業，所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的廢清法來管理開罰。這些都是公害背後的法律漏洞，本席希望今天把這個題目打開，希望環境部針對倉儲大火的案例，去做法規修正的研擬報告，然後我們長期來追蹤，看看能不能從法制面、制度面來完善這樣子的困境，不要再讓公害困擾人民，部長，你同意這樣的方向嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就請你回去研議好嗎？我們持續來追蹤，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是。OK。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：不客氣。好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛委員。","接下來請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra 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\"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 290.863, \"end\": 291.023, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 291.023, \"end\": 291.123, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 291.123, \"end\": 291.143, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:13,143 --> 00:00:14,506\n謝謝主席我們等一下投影片謝謝這個環境部長有請謝謝請薛部長\n\n2\n00:00:20,287 --> 00:00:45,198\n好牛委員好部長午安今天要針對大火公害案來提出質詢最近這一段時間倉儲的大火數量是非常多的而且造成民眾的困擾其實是比想像中要嚴重很多這最典型的例子當然是發生在本席的選區桃園第一選區2022年3月10日盧竹的美孚倉儲大火\n\n3\n00:00:45,618 --> 00:01:15,060\n那過了幾天之後這我們土委員的選區啊這楊梅家樂福物流中心也大火你看短短幾天就兩場那最近的新北的泰山工廠大火這個PCHome林口倉庫倉庫的大火到這個去年9月屏東名陽這個是打火弟兄也犧牲了倉儲大火然後一直到最近大家印象非常深刻應該是最近2月20號這個深坑的光電鋰電池倉儲場大火這些大火其實都除了造成火災本身的災損之外也造成了非常嚴重的公害\n\n4\n00:01:16,083 --> 00:01:19,920\n但是部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格的處分?\n\n5\n00:01:21,069 --> 00:01:45,919\n啊這公害當檢察官有介入調查只要他違反相關的法令一定會受到這個懲罰好您說的真好對不對公害如果受到了調查而且清除之後會受到懲會受到處罰我跟部長就在這裡報告我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思啊你知道美孚大火那個惡臭啊整整持續了快要三個月\n\n6\n00:01:46,599 --> 00:02:14,045\n火災本身的惡臭接近3個禮拜後續的腐肉的惡臭持續了3個月但是這些造成嚴重污染異味對爐主的鄉親造成衝擊最後的結論竟然只能重罰6000塊這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情因為今天時間有限我就不多鋪陳我直接來做說明這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防治法的角度來進行開罰但部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎\n\n7\n00:02:16,119 --> 00:02:30,024\n呃條文我當然沒辦法記得但是基本上齁只要發生任何這個火災我們有一個環境事故啊處理對都會按照法條我跟部長講齁開罰的法條就是空污法第32條啦\n\n8\n00:02:31,224 --> 00:02:50,040\n那第32條講什麼叫管理不當產生自然那裡面法條詳細叫堆置管理不當產生自然那這個當然這個產業的角度他就會說我這個又不是堆置不當我是電氣因素啊我是電線走火啊就奇奇怪怪的理由就來了那你就法論法的過程之中好像還真的\n\n9\n00:02:51,581 --> 00:03:13,495\n好像還這法條好像還真的不太夠完備啊所以到了最後就是明明可以重罰500萬然後最後都被訴願撤銷然後到最後只剩不痛不癢那種法條可以罰到就變成重罰6000塊本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐而且非常誇張的那為什麼追根究底為什麼我們用32條開法因為我後來仔細的看了一下如果你不用32條開法你連開法的法條都沒有啊\n\n10\n00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:24,461\n我們針對這種火災造成的公害我們從來沒有對產業刻以任何的責任這是這個案子背後的通案問題部長你要回答一下嗎二臭這種概念事實上對執法\n\n11\n00:03:31,405 --> 00:03:34,388\n但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的我們該有修法了吧\n\n12\n00:03:56,470 --> 00:04:20,745\n以每幅倉儲為例有兩條很重要要修第一條就是32條的管理不當的範圍我們應該要有具體的檢討除了堆置之外是不是有操作的問題電器的問題要把它納入不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚第二個是廢棄物清理啊因為它那個腐肉放在那個地方發臭廢棄物清理的時候很遺憾我們環保這個倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業\n\n13\n00:04:21,465 --> 00:04:46,616\n所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的費清法的角度來對他進行管理開罰這些都是公案背後的法律漏洞本期希望今天把這題目打開然後這個希望環境部針對這樣子的案例倉儲大火的這樣子的案例去做法規修正的研擬報告然後我們來長期來做追蹤看看能不能從法制面制度面來完善這樣子的困境不要讓公害再困擾人民部長同樣方向嗎\n\n14\n00:04:47,396 --> 00:04:51,143\n那就請你回去做演繹好嗎?我們持續來追蹤可以嗎?好辛苦了謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13143\t14506\t謝謝主席我們等一下投影片謝謝這個環境部長有請謝謝請薛部長\n20287\t45198\t好 牛委員好部長午安今天要針對大火公害案來提出質詢最近這一段時間倉儲的大火數量是非常多的而且造成民眾的困擾其實是比想像中要嚴重很多這最典型的例子當然是發生在本席的選區桃園第一選區2022年3月10日盧竹的美孚倉儲大火\n45618\t75060\t那過了幾天之後這我們土委員的選區啊這楊梅家樂福物流中心也大火你看短短幾天就兩場那最近的新北的泰山工廠大火這個PC Home林口倉庫倉庫的大火到這個去年9月屏東名陽這個是打火弟兄也犧牲了倉儲大火然後一直到最近大家印象非常深刻應該是最近2月20號這個深坑的光電鋰電池倉儲場大火這些大火其實都除了造成火災本身的災損之外也造成了非常嚴重的公害\n76083\t79920\t但是部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格的處分?\n81069\t105919\t啊這公害當檢察官有介入調查只要他違反相關的法令一定會受到這個懲罰好您說的真好對不對公害如果受到了調查而且清除之後會受到懲會受到處罰我跟部長就在這裡報告我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思啊你知道美孚大火那個惡臭啊整整持續了快要三個月\n106599\t134045\t火災本身的惡臭接近3個禮拜後續的腐肉的惡臭持續了3個月但是這些造成嚴重污染異味對爐主的鄉親造成衝擊最後的結論竟然只能重罰6000塊這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情因為今天時間有限我就不多鋪陳我直接來做說明這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防治法的角度來進行開罰但部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎\n136119\t150024\t呃條文我當然沒辦法記得但是基本上齁只要發生任何這個火災我們有一個環境事故啊處理對都會按照法條我跟部長講齁開罰的法條就是空污法第32條啦\n151224\t170040\t那第32條講什麼叫管理不當產生自然那裡面法條詳細叫堆置管理不當產生自然那這個當然這個產業的角度他就會說我這個又不是堆置不當我是電氣因素啊我是電線走火啊就奇奇怪怪的理由就來了那你就法論法的過程之中好像還真的\n171581\t193495\t好像還這法條好像還真的不太夠完備啊所以到了最後就是明明可以重罰500萬然後最後都被訴願撤銷然後到最後只剩不痛不癢那種法條可以罰到就變成重罰6000塊本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐而且非常誇張的那為什麼追根究底為什麼我們用32條開法因為我後來仔細的看了一下如果你不用32條開法你連開法的法條都沒有啊\n196036\t204461\t我們針對這種火災造成的公害我們從來沒有對產業刻以任何的責任這是這個案子背後的通案問題部長你要回答一下嗎二臭這種概念事實上對執法\n211405\t214388\t但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的我們該有修法了吧\n236470\t260745\t以每幅倉儲為例有兩條很重要要修第一條就是32條的管理不當的範圍我們應該要有具體的檢討除了堆置之外是不是有操作的問題電器的問題要把它納入不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚第二個是廢棄物清理啊因為它那個腐肉放在那個地方發臭廢棄物清理的時候很遺憾我們環保這個倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業\n261465\t286616\t所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的費清法的角度來對他進行管理開罰這些都是公案背後的法律漏洞本期希望今天把這題目打開然後這個希望環境部針對這樣子的案例倉儲大火的這樣子的案例去做法規修正的研擬報告然後我們來長期來做追蹤看看能不能從法制面制度面來完善這樣子的困境不要讓公害再困擾人民部長同樣方向嗎\n287396\t291143\t那就請你回去做演繹好嗎?我們持續來追蹤可以嗎?好辛苦了謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們等一下投影片謝謝這個環境部長有請謝謝請薛部長\n好 牛委員好部長午安今天要針對大火公害案來提出質詢最近這一段時間倉儲的大火數量是非常多的而且造成民眾的困擾其實是比想像中要嚴重很多這最典型的例子當然是發生在本席的選區桃園第一選區2022年3月10日盧竹的美孚倉儲大火\n那過了幾天之後這我們土委員的選區啊這楊梅家樂福物流中心也大火你看短短幾天就兩場那最近的新北的泰山工廠大火這個PC Home林口倉庫倉庫的大火到這個去年9月屏東名陽這個是打火弟兄也犧牲了倉儲大火然後一直到最近大家印象非常深刻應該是最近2月20號這個深坑的光電鋰電池倉儲場大火這些大火其實都除了造成火災本身的災損之外也造成了非常嚴重的公害\n但是部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格的處分?\n啊這公害當檢察官有介入調查只要他違反相關的法令一定會受到這個懲罰好您說的真好對不對公害如果受到了調查而且清除之後會受到懲會受到處罰我跟部長就在這裡報告我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思啊你知道美孚大火那個惡臭啊整整持續了快要三個月\n火災本身的惡臭接近3個禮拜後續的腐肉的惡臭持續了3個月但是這些造成嚴重污染異味對爐主的鄉親造成衝擊最後的結論竟然只能重罰6000塊這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情因為今天時間有限我就不多鋪陳我直接來做說明這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防治法的角度來進行開罰但部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎\n呃條文我當然沒辦法記得但是基本上齁只要發生任何這個火災我們有一個環境事故啊處理對都會按照法條我跟部長講齁開罰的法條就是空污法第32條啦\n那第32條講什麼叫管理不當產生自然那裡面法條詳細叫堆置管理不當產生自然那這個當然這個產業的角度他就會說我這個又不是堆置不當我是電氣因素啊我是電線走火啊就奇奇怪怪的理由就來了那你就法論法的過程之中好像還真的\n好像還這法條好像還真的不太夠完備啊所以到了最後就是明明可以重罰500萬然後最後都被訴願撤銷然後到最後只剩不痛不癢那種法條可以罰到就變成重罰6000塊本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐而且非常誇張的那為什麼追根究底為什麼我們用32條開法因為我後來仔細的看了一下如果你不用32條開法你連開法的法條都沒有啊\n我們針對這種火災造成的公害我們從來沒有對產業刻以任何的責任這是這個案子背後的通案問題部長你要回答一下嗎二臭這種概念事實上對執法\n但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的我們該有修法了吧\n以每幅倉儲為例有兩條很重要要修第一條就是32條的管理不當的範圍我們應該要有具體的檢討除了堆置之外是不是有操作的問題電器的問題要把它納入不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚第二個是廢棄物清理啊因為它那個腐肉放在那個地方發臭廢棄物清理的時候很遺憾我們環保這個倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業\n所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的費清法的角度來對他進行管理開罰這些都是公案背後的法律漏洞本期希望今天把這題目打開然後這個希望環境部針對這樣子的案例倉儲大火的這樣子的案例去做法規修正的研擬報告然後我們來長期來做追蹤看看能不能從法制面制度面來完善這樣子的困境不要讓公害再困擾人民部長同樣方向嗎\n那就請你回去做演繹好嗎?我們持續來追蹤可以嗎?好辛苦了謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.143 --> 00:14.506\n謝謝主席我們等一下投影片謝謝這個環境部長有請謝謝請薛部長\n\n00:20.287 --> 00:45.198\n好牛委員好部長午安今天要針對大火公害案來提出質詢最近這一段時間倉儲的大火數量是非常多的而且造成民眾的困擾其實是比想像中要嚴重很多這最典型的例子當然是發生在本席的選區桃園第一選區2022年3月10日盧竹的美孚倉儲大火\n\n00:45.618 --> 01:15.060\n那過了幾天之後這我們土委員的選區啊這楊梅家樂福物流中心也大火你看短短幾天就兩場那最近的新北的泰山工廠大火這個PCHome林口倉庫倉庫的大火到這個去年9月屏東名陽這個是打火弟兄也犧牲了倉儲大火然後一直到最近大家印象非常深刻應該是最近2月20號這個深坑的光電鋰電池倉儲場大火這些大火其實都除了造成火災本身的災損之外也造成了非常嚴重的公害\n\n01:16.083 --> 01:19.920\n但是部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格的處分?\n\n01:21.069 --> 01:45.919\n啊這公害當檢察官有介入調查只要他違反相關的法令一定會受到這個懲罰好您說的真好對不對公害如果受到了調查而且清除之後會受到懲會受到處罰我跟部長就在這裡報告我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思啊你知道美孚大火那個惡臭啊整整持續了快要三個月\n\n01:46.599 --> 02:14.045\n火災本身的惡臭接近3個禮拜後續的腐肉的惡臭持續了3個月但是這些造成嚴重污染異味對爐主的鄉親造成衝擊最後的結論竟然只能重罰6000塊這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情因為今天時間有限我就不多鋪陳我直接來做說明這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防治法的角度來進行開罰但部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎\n\n02:16.119 --> 02:30.024\n呃條文我當然沒辦法記得但是基本上齁只要發生任何這個火災我們有一個環境事故啊處理對都會按照法條我跟部長講齁開罰的法條就是空污法第32條啦\n\n02:31.224 --> 02:50.040\n那第32條講什麼叫管理不當產生自然那裡面法條詳細叫堆置管理不當產生自然那這個當然這個產業的角度他就會說我這個又不是堆置不當我是電氣因素啊我是電線走火啊就奇奇怪怪的理由就來了那你就法論法的過程之中好像還真的\n\n02:51.581 --> 03:13.495\n好像還這法條好像還真的不太夠完備啊所以到了最後就是明明可以重罰500萬然後最後都被訴願撤銷然後到最後只剩不痛不癢那種法條可以罰到就變成重罰6000塊本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐而且非常誇張的那為什麼追根究底為什麼我們用32條開法因為我後來仔細的看了一下如果你不用32條開法你連開法的法條都沒有啊\n\n03:16.036 --> 03:24.461\n我們針對這種火災造成的公害我們從來沒有對產業刻以任何的責任這是這個案子背後的通案問題部長你要回答一下嗎二臭這種概念事實上對執法\n\n03:31.405 --> 03:34.388\n但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的我們該有修法了吧\n\n03:56.470 --> 04:20.745\n以每幅倉儲為例有兩條很重要要修第一條就是32條的管理不當的範圍我們應該要有具體的檢討除了堆置之外是不是有操作的問題電器的問題要把它納入不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚第二個是廢棄物清理啊因為它那個腐肉放在那個地方發臭廢棄物清理的時候很遺憾我們環保這個倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業\n\n04:21.465 --> 04:46.616\n所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的費清法的角度來對他進行管理開罰這些都是公案背後的法律漏洞本期希望今天把這題目打開然後這個希望環境部針對這樣子的案例倉儲大火的這樣子的案例去做法規修正的研擬報告然後我們來長期來做追蹤看看能不能從法制面制度面來完善這樣子的困境不要讓公害再困擾人民部長同樣方向嗎\n\n04:47.396 --> 04:51.143\n那就請你回去做演繹好嗎?我們持續來追蹤可以嗎?好辛苦了謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.143,"end":14.506,"text":"謝謝主席我們等一下投影片謝謝這個環境部長有請謝謝請薛部長"},{"start":20.287,"end":45.198,"text":"好 牛委員好部長午安今天要針對大火公害案來提出質詢最近這一段時間倉儲的大火數量是非常多的而且造成民眾的困擾其實是比想像中要嚴重很多這最典型的例子當然是發生在本席的選區桃園第一選區2022年3月10日盧竹的美孚倉儲大火"},{"start":45.618,"end":75.06,"text":"那過了幾天之後這我們土委員的選區啊這楊梅家樂福物流中心也大火你看短短幾天就兩場那最近的新北的泰山工廠大火這個PC Home林口倉庫倉庫的大火到這個去年9月屏東名陽這個是打火弟兄也犧牲了倉儲大火然後一直到最近大家印象非常深刻應該是最近2月20號這個深坑的光電鋰電池倉儲場大火這些大火其實都除了造成火災本身的災損之外也造成了非常嚴重的公害"},{"start":76.083,"end":79.92,"text":"但是部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格的處分?"},{"start":81.069,"end":105.919,"text":"啊這公害當檢察官有介入調查只要他違反相關的法令一定會受到這個懲罰好您說的真好對不對公害如果受到了調查而且清除之後會受到懲會受到處罰我跟部長就在這裡報告我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思啊你知道美孚大火那個惡臭啊整整持續了快要三個月"},{"start":106.599,"end":134.045,"text":"火災本身的惡臭接近3個禮拜後續的腐肉的惡臭持續了3個月但是這些造成嚴重污染異味對爐主的鄉親造成衝擊最後的結論竟然只能重罰6000塊這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情因為今天時間有限我就不多鋪陳我直接來做說明這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防治法的角度來進行開罰但部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎"},{"start":136.119,"end":150.024,"text":"呃條文我當然沒辦法記得但是基本上齁只要發生任何這個火災我們有一個環境事故啊處理對都會按照法條我跟部長講齁開罰的法條就是空污法第32條啦"},{"start":151.224,"end":170.04,"text":"那第32條講什麼叫管理不當產生自然那裡面法條詳細叫堆置管理不當產生自然那這個當然這個產業的角度他就會說我這個又不是堆置不當我是電氣因素啊我是電線走火啊就奇奇怪怪的理由就來了那你就法論法的過程之中好像還真的"},{"start":171.581,"end":193.495,"text":"好像還這法條好像還真的不太夠完備啊所以到了最後就是明明可以重罰500萬然後最後都被訴願撤銷然後到最後只剩不痛不癢那種法條可以罰到就變成重罰6000塊本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐而且非常誇張的那為什麼追根究底為什麼我們用32條開法因為我後來仔細的看了一下如果你不用32條開法你連開法的法條都沒有啊"},{"start":196.036,"end":204.461,"text":"我們針對這種火災造成的公害我們從來沒有對產業刻以任何的責任這是這個案子背後的通案問題部長你要回答一下嗎二臭這種概念事實上對執法"},{"start":211.405,"end":214.388,"text":"但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的我們該有修法了吧"},{"start":236.47,"end":260.745,"text":"以每幅倉儲為例有兩條很重要要修第一條就是32條的管理不當的範圍我們應該要有具體的檢討除了堆置之外是不是有操作的問題電器的問題要把它納入不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚第二個是廢棄物清理啊因為它那個腐肉放在那個地方發臭廢棄物清理的時候很遺憾我們環保這個倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業"},{"start":261.465,"end":286.616,"text":"所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的費清法的角度來對他進行管理開罰這些都是公案背後的法律漏洞本期希望今天把這題目打開然後這個希望環境部針對這樣子的案例倉儲大火的這樣子的案例去做法規修正的研擬報告然後我們來長期來做追蹤看看能不能從法制面制度面來完善這樣子的困境不要讓公害再困擾人民部長同樣方向嗎"},{"start":287.396,"end":291.143,"text":"那就請你回去做演繹好嗎?我們持續來追蹤可以嗎?好辛苦了謝謝"}]}}}}