{"id":149920,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353adc904e1c19760308cf9aa492401ec9f8ba9b0039caa7a602cda474afd28a485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:50:47 - 13:02:01","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2024-03-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【3月13日及14日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-5"},"date":"2024-03-14","duration":674,"end_time":"2024-03-14T13:02:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-14T12:50:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1704,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩請薛部長及化學署的謝署長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。今天針對有毒食用化學物質的管理，有些問題想要請教。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我想先請教一下，毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨及任務是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上是統整，因為在105年之前發生過蠻多系統性的食安事件，蔡總統就責成當時的環保署成立化學局，希望可以對國內的化工原料、化學物質做一個統整及源頭管理。"],["陳委員瑩：主要還是為了把關食品安全的源頭，以及整個食品安全度的提升。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：最近大家都在討論蘇丹紅的事件，就蘇丹紅的毒性而言，它是屬於工業用的產品，不能添加於食品……"],["薛部長富盛：是，不能。"],["陳委員瑩：這類物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質？"],["薛部長富盛：它是屬於第四類的毒化物。"],["陳委員瑩：第四類的毒化物，你們對於不同的分類是不是有不同管理程度的分別？"],["薛部長富盛：針對這四類毒化物，假如要運作、要進口，它的流向都必須取得環境部的許可，才可以進行運作及後續的處理，包括標示等等，事實上是相當嚴謹的。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！相當嚴謹，所以我剛剛問不同的分類是有管理程度或強度的不同嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我請謝署長來回答。"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，其實1、2、3、4類並不是排名，只不過是……"],["陳委員瑩：這個我瞭解，證據多寡的問題。"],["謝署長燕儒：第一類是持久性……"],["陳委員瑩：喔！這是指數，我剛講的是級數。"],["謝署長燕儒：第二類是慢毒性、第三類是急毒性、第四類就是對環境或人體健康有危害，所以我們在管理上的強度是一樣的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。剛剛是說程度與強度，強度一樣，程度的話，基本上類別是不一樣嘛！"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["陳委員瑩：再者，行政院食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級，也就是它是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據，可能會引起致癌性，因此對健康安全的威脅有限。我想民眾是沒有辦法接受這樣的說法，不知道部長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：許主任已經道歉了，因為他說的那一類是另外一種分類法，包括致癌的那一類，第一類就是菸酒等等，第三類就是咖啡、茶與蘇丹紅。事實上，這個比喻是不恰當的，我們現在談的是毒化物這一塊，而國內的法規也是規定在這一塊，應該從這一塊來談。但是蘇丹紅事件，除了我們關心的化學雲與國內的這一塊，事實上它還有其他部分我們真的必須要考慮，因為它是以食品或調味料粉的方式進來，而在中國產地是把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面，所以整個案子是辛苦衛福部了，現在是由食藥署在檢查。"],["陳委員瑩：他們也是有點倒楣，發現了還要被大家罵。現在你們化學署的資料庫可以顯示進口的數量，對於資料庫中將蘇丹紅放進來作為為第四類的毒化物，我想國人對這個部分都會給予肯定。但是你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已，重要的是這個毒化物的物質流布管理distribution management的部分，然後這些物質都用到哪裡去了？有沒有按照進口申報的目的使用？我想這個才是你們的任務、這個才是管理的目的嘛！請教署長，你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理、如何確切掌握數據的真實性、以及哪些物質一定要做這個流布的管理，請你說明？"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，依照毒管法而言，經我們公告的毒化物關注化學物質，必須要取得許可、要申報，也就是從製造、輸入、販賣、使用、儲存，一直到後面，通通要取得許可、要申報、要標示。我們在網路上的資料庫是可以一個一個去看它的流向，譬如跟誰買、賣給誰、賣多少，每個月都要申報，所以從申報資料可以去做勾稽比對，再到現場去查核實際的東西。"],["陳委員瑩：哪些物質一定要做流布管理？"],["謝署長燕儒：通通都要。"],["陳委員瑩：通通都要？"],["謝署長燕儒：對，通通都要。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這一次的問題，就是這些工業用的物質變成食品添加物，請問署長，這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們任何的法規？因為我都沒有聽到你們的聲音，好像全部都是違反食安法，與你們主管的法律都沒有關係嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：報告委員，如果是國內的業者把蘇丹紅色素加入辣椒粉，那就是我們的事、那就違反了……"],["陳委員瑩：你是說國內的業者？"],["謝署長燕儒：對，國內的業者。譬如我們的蘇丹紅色素有進口，有些業者取得之後，把它加入辣椒粉再販賣，這個部分就屬於我們毒管法管轄，在國內把它加進食品就會違反我們的法規。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這次與你們都沒有關係？都是在外面加完之後再進來？"],["謝署長燕儒：其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控，因為我們也擔心真的是在國內添加進去的，事實上就……"],["陳委員瑩：我的問題是到底有沒有觸犯到你們任何相關的法規？"],["謝署長燕儒：目前是沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：目前是沒有，以後再繼續調查下去，也通通都不會有？"],["薛部長富盛：報告委員，因為它進口的是辣椒粉，並不屬於環境部管轄，辣椒粉是屬於食藥署管轄，最主要是這樣子。"],["陳委員瑩：你們的法規是針對進口商、中間商、或末端的使用端進行懲處？"],["謝署長燕儒：通通都要。"],["陳委員瑩：通通都要？"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["陳委員瑩：目前你們有沒有足夠的人力及能力去追蹤、調查及管理？"],["謝署長燕儒：當然人力是要持續補啦！但是我們有地方環保局配合。"],["陳委員瑩：在你們自己的報告中有講到，而且根據我的瞭解，你們已經培訓了一萬三千八百多名應變人員，以及山區有10隊在1個小時內可以達到事故現場，還有2個監控中心與24小時全年無休的……"],["薛部長富盛：環境事故應變中心。"],["陳委員瑩：對，但是你們也培訓了非常多的人嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：以這次蘇丹紅事件而言，你們是如何執行你們的主管業務？"],["謝署長燕儒：目前是分為兩個，一個是剛剛委員提的，屬於毒化災應變的部分，那個體系包括……"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛說的一萬多人對於這個都是沒有用？"],["謝署長燕儒：那是毒化災。"],["陳委員瑩：在這裡就是無效了？"],["謝署長燕儒：那是包括訓練業界的部分。我們做毒化物的稽查管制，主要是與環保局合作，所以我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去，大概是這樣做的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們現在是有足夠的能力及人力去追蹤、調查嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：要持續增加，如果公告的項目、品項越來越多，其實人力還是要持續增加。"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛你提到各縣市的環保局，現在你們與他們的關係如何？"],["謝署長燕儒：其實我們在毒化物管理方面本來就是一個team，而且我們也有補助他們人力，大概是在……"],["陳委員瑩：因為有補助，應該是關係良好？"],["謝署長燕儒：在合作上還可以。"],["陳委員瑩：你確定每個地方都還不錯？"],["謝署長燕儒：我確定。"],["陳委員瑩：你確定，很好。事實上，你們是屬於跨部會的業務，因為產業發展署、職業安全衛生署、食藥署、農業部、甚至是國科會的科技研發、教育部大學的教學實驗，其實都與你們有非常密切的關係，所以你們平常是有合作的平台嗎？是雙邊或是多邊？"],["謝署長燕儒：有，我們最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報，其中就有各部會都要進來，議題也都會在這個會報及委員諮詢會議提出。我們的部長是執行長，而且我們還有一些跨部會的工作會議，很多議題都會在這裡進行討論。"],["陳委員瑩：今天我在實務上提了很多問題，主要目的其實是要督促你們，不要把自己做小了。你們的責任是非常重大的，因為現在已經升格為署，負有政策規劃、執行及管理的責任。針對食安的問題，如果有你們正確無誤的資料，從上中下游可以全盤掌握的話，我想對於國人的食安及生命安全的保護，一定是可以做到預防的功效，讓這些不肖業者、這些宵小不敢再為非作歹。希望將來可以真正看到化學署的角色及功能，而且受到大家的肯定。"],["謝署長燕儒：好，我們會持續加油。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","本日會議詢答全部結束，另有委員廖偉翔、楊曜及邱鎮軍所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","一、查環境部因應組織改造升格後，在113年度編制員額及預算員額數皆有明顯對比過往再增加，然當前進用人事之作業上，於各所屬機關尚存有明顯之員額缺額，恐致業務量能受損，並徒增額外行政管理成本，爰要求限期於一個月內向本委員會提交檢討報告。","二、另查，關於碳費審議委員會自頒定設置要點後，迄今尚未召開會議，以及考量碳費審議作業之重要性不容輕視，是以要求環境部檢討現行該會議每年至少召開一次，容有次數不足之疑慮，並且應落實會議紀錄向外界公開揭露之妥適規劃，爰亦要求限期於一個月內向本委員會提交執行規劃說明報告。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、環境部制定SRF相關配套措施目前進度為何？","問題：由可燃垃圾做成的「固體再生燃料」（SRF），近年被政府視為轉廢為能的關鍵，發展的同時，建廠卻屢屢在地方引起爭議，近期更有媒體報導，不法業者焚燒SRF，燒出超標57倍戴奧辛，根本是假SRF之名、行焚化爐之實，引發民眾恐慌，未來環境部若欲繼續推行SRF，民眾觀感不佳、恐影響民眾健康將成一大阻力，為此，環境部先前有允諾要嚴格規範SRF配套措施，以利維護民眾健康，請問環境部，目前進度為何？","二、為因應歐盟試行碳邊境調整機制（CBAM），環境部該如何協助因應？","問題：歐盟碳邊境調整機制已於去年十月月開始試行，適用產品範圍從水泥、鋼鐵、鋁、化學肥料、電力與氫氣等，與環境部所列管每年必須申報溫室氣體的廠商不盡相同，而根據氣候變遷因應法規定，碳費之徵收對象由環境部定之，請問環境部，是否已與經濟部來研究，將碳邊境調整機制範圍相關產品的中小企業，協助及早建立碳管理相關基礎資料？","根據歐盟碳邊境調整機制的規則，歐盟只承認由歐盟碳交易機制認可的驗證單位所發出的報告，請問環境部，是否已開始輔導國內驗證單位的認證銜接歐盟認證，避免國內廠商僅能選擇國外符合歐盟要求驗證機構？","三、資源循環促進法修正草案何時預告？","問題：據媒體報導，環境部表示，台灣每年產生逾1900萬噸無機再生料，包括飛灰底渣、爐碴、廢淨水污泥等8大類；無機料焚化及掩埋率近年來皆小於1%，這些材料經過處理後，品質可媿美天然粒料，已被廣泛應用於營建工程，用於營建工程逾8成，環境部期盼透過「資源循環促進法」徵收資源循環促進費，提高再利用比率。","請問環境部，資源循環促進法修正草案何時預告？綜整媒體報導，若未來通過資源循環促進法後，資源循環署是否有能力及人力來管理原本散落在各事業目的主管機關所管理之廢棄物？","四、針對未來收取碳費後對於民生物價之衝擊，如何與相關部會謹慎因應？","問題：日前，環境部部長接受媒體採訪表示，「電價調整與碳費一定有關係」，但關聯性並不是那麼大，因為對台電或其他電力生產者徵收的碳費，有扣除其提供給下游消費者所使用的量，仍會持續推動碳費，將該做的工作都做好，目前仍訂於今年第1季公布碳費費率，明年正式收費，若4月起調漲電價，而3月又要公布碳費費率，民眾擔心，是否會對民生及物價造成衝擊？為此，在兼顧國家減碳目標及環境永續、產業發展的情形下，未來收取碳費後，對於民生物價之衝擊，環境部如何與相關部會謹慎因應？"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","議題一：首場碳費費率審議會議將登場","首場碳費費率審議會將在明天（15日）登場，外界都非常關心。","Q1-1：據本席了解這21位審議委員會委員其中只有8位專家是採推薦方式產生，請問其餘代表如何產生？二年任期中委員出缺如何遞補？","Q1-2：針對碳費徵收，專家建議「量出為入」，由政府先訂出減碳所需經費，再換算收取費率，並考慮扣除基本排放量，拉高多餘排放的徵收費率。而環團則主張，要廢除2.5萬噸免費額度，才能符合減碳目標。部長對第一波大戶來說，2.5萬噸是起徵標準？還是免費額度？","委員：政府目前政策傾向先開徵512家大戶，預計每年可徵收多少費用？優先用途是否已經明確？"],["委員\n            ：另外，請教部長，未來預計何時會擴大徵收對象？第二波徵收對象，大概會針對那些產業？"],["委員\n            ：本席認為碳費徵收應逐步落實，針對第一階段先開徵費用，要儘快設計出一套機制，讓企業能夠共同促進減碳，而不是為了應付繳錢。","Q1-3：針對第一階段碳費徵收，環團也建議從500元起跳，請問部長起徵費會傾向300元起徵？還是500元？","Q1-4：部長曾對外說明，針對碳費徵收的初步構想，可能採三級費率，包含優惠費率兩級及一般費率。請問如果從300元起跳，三級費率分別是多少？何時可以確定？","Q1-5：另外，業界希望政府針對進口商也可以同時開徵碳費，以免獨厚進口商，形成不公平競爭，但這牽涉與外國碳費制度的架接，請問目前怎麼規劃？","Q1-6：針對氣候變遷因應法12項子法，已經完成8項，目前攸關碳費徵收最重要的「碳費徵收辦法草案」也已經在去年底提出，請問是否需要經過審議委員會審查？預定何時會正式公告實施？","建議：淨零減碳是國際產業發展方向，推動氣候變遷因應法，可以說是環境部未來最重要的任務，而最具體的就是碳費與碳稅的徵收，希望政府可以循序漸進推動，逐步協助企業成功淨零轉型。","議題二：頭份市公所興建資源回收貯存場","苗栗縣頭份市是人口稠密區，資源回收量逐年增加，在110就年已達到30,000公噸，但都是採取露天貯存，因此亟需新建資源回收貯存場。","目前市公所已經找到用地，並完成興辦事業、水土保持及用地變更等事宜，但因為水土保持計畫已經在去年4月核定，必須在剩下的2年內開工，否則就會失去效力。所以有時程上的壓力；同時在經費方面仍有1.3億的缺口。","建議：請環境部全力協助該市公所推動本案！","議題三、資源循環促進法立法進度","環境部資源循環署目前正研擬「資源循環促進法」，計畫推動徵收「資源循環促進費」，以補貼因使用再生原料產品而影響競爭力之業者，落實資源循環。","Q3-1：請問資源循環促進法目前立法進度為何？徵收資源循環促進費的對象大約是那些產業？","Q3-2：政府大力推動將適燃廢棄物做成固體再生燃料（SRF），目前每年有20萬公噸SRF進入工業鍋爐，引發廢氣管理問題；同時還有各地陸續冒出來的小型SRF製造廠，會逸散廢氣，讓附近的住家抱怨連連。請問部長目前針對使用SRF的工業鍋爐及SRF製造廠商的污染管理問題，相關污染防制法規修法的進度為何？","建議：本席支持環境部提升事業廢棄物的循環再利用，希望相關法規及政策持續進步，但是針對SRF可能造成新的污染，也應該能具體掌握控管，避免造成新的問題，而成為政策推動的困境。"],["主席：現在做以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於二周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（13時2分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":420,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-5","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","王育敏","王正旭","林德福","林淑芬","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","黃仁","牛煦庭","羅智強","陳昭姿","鍾佳濱","劉建國","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","陳瑩","廖偉翔","楊曜","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2024-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1131301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131301_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"149920","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149920","tool":"pyannote","id":"149920-pyannote"},"job_id":"vevhI8GDaqG5rxR0","queued_at":"2024-06-02 03:01:14","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 03:02:42","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149920"},{"time":"2024-06-02 03:02:43","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38af2da376d231353adc904e1c19760308cf9aa492401ec9940da67fa17b753bd4773dc9bfd7c5f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 03:03:03","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 648.717, \"end\": 648.737, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,598 --> 00:00:14,152\n謝主席麻煩請我們薛部長還有化學署的謝主長\n\n2\n00:00:18,017 --> 00:00:43,097\n陳瑩好部長好我想今天就針對有毒食用化學物質的管理有些問題要請教我想先請教一下在毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨跟任務是什麼\n\n3\n00:00:44,807 --> 00:01:03,197\n好事實上是統整齁因為在105年的時候發生在這個之前事實上發生蠻多包括系統性的食安事件那那時候蔡總統就折騰那時候的環保署成立化學局那希望可以對國內\n\n4\n00:01:09,424 --> 00:01:20,697\n所以主要還是為了這個把關這個食品安全的這個源頭然後整個提升我們食品安全的這個整個安全度的提升嗎\n\n5\n00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:44,179\n首先最近大家討論蘇丹紅物質的事件蘇丹紅物質的毒性是工業用的產品並不能添加於食品這一類的物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質?它是屬於D4類的毒化物\n\n6\n00:01:44,679 --> 00:01:52,304\n好那第4類的這個毒化物的部分你們不同的分類是不是有這個不同管理程度的這個分別?\n\n7\n00:02:14,899 --> 00:02:22,870\n對阿相當嚴謹所以我剛剛問是說不同的分類是有那個不同管理程度或強度的這個不同好我們謝署長來回答一下\n\n8\n00:02:25,004 --> 00:02:50,004\n報告委員其實一二三四類並不是說排名只不過是第一類是證據的多寡的問題第一類就是這個比如說持久性第二類慢毒性第三類急毒性那第四類的話就是有這個就是對環境或人體有健康的所以我們在管理上是強度是一樣的\n\n9\n00:02:50,486 --> 00:03:19,269\n好謝謝那所以剛剛程度跟強度啦強度一樣那程度就基本上類別是不一樣嗎那再來就是說行政院這個食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級那也就是說他是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據然後可能會引起致癌性那因此這個健康安全的威脅有限這樣的說法是\n\n10\n00:03:20,309 --> 00:03:40,664\n我想是不會被民眾是沒有辦法接受啦那我想請教一下就是部長看法是怎麼樣我想習主任他已經也道歉了啦齁因為他那一類是另外一種分類法齁那包括像第一類在自來的那一類第一類就是煙啦酒啦等等這些東西那第三類就是\n\n11\n00:03:41,484 --> 00:04:04,592\n包括咖啡茶跟蘇丹紅阿事實上這個比喻是不恰當的我們現在在談的是毒化物的這一塊那我們國內的法規事實上也是規定在這一塊應該從這一塊來談但是蘇丹紅事件必須我想除了我們關心化學銀跟國內的這一塊事實上他還有其他部分\n\n12\n00:04:05,752 --> 00:04:27,525\n我們真的必須要考慮因為他是以食品或者調味料塑膠粉的方式進來那在中國產地他把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面去所以才會整個案子是讓辛苦的衛福部他們變成食藥署在監察\n\n13\n00:04:29,346 --> 00:04:53,391\n他們也是有點倒霉有發現了結果還要被大家罵那我想這次就是說後來你們這個化學署的這個資料庫有顯示進口的數量那對於說資料庫可以把這個蘇丹紅放進來變成這個作為第4類的毒化物我想這個部分國人會是都會予以肯定那現在只是說你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已\n\n14\n00:04:54,011 --> 00:05:21,494\n那重要的是這個毒化物質的這個流布管理也就是distributionmanagement的部分那這些物質都用到哪裡去了有沒有按照這個進口申報的目的去使用我想才是你們的任務才是這個管理的目的嘛那我想請教署長你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理然後如何確確的這個掌握數據的真實性還有哪些物質一定要做\n\n15\n00:05:21,934 --> 00:05:37,997\n做這個流布的管理請你說明根本報告依照毒管法來講就我們公告的毒化或關節化學物質從要取得許可要申報就是從製造輸入販賣使用儲存一直到後面通通要取得許可\n\n16\n00:05:38,638 --> 00:05:40,740\n那所以有哪些物質是一定要做流布管理?\n\n17\n00:06:04,238 --> 00:06:23,096\n通通都要通通都要好那很好那我想這次的問題就是說這些工業用的這個物質就跑去變成了食品添加物那請問署長說這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們的任何的法規好因為我我都沒有聽到你們的聲音啊\n\n18\n00:06:23,877 --> 00:06:51,603\n好像全部都是違反這個食安法好像就是然後是跟你們這個主管的法律都沒有關係嗎根本報告如果啦我們假設如果是國內的業者把蘇丹色素加到辣椒粉去那就是我們的事那就違反那個你說那個國內的業者對比如說我們的蘇丹色素有進口吧那有些業者就取得了然後就把它加到辣椒粉那這樣出來這個部分啊\n\n19\n00:06:52,645 --> 00:06:57,883\n就是我們讀官法管轄的那就違反就把就在國內把他加進來這樣子就違反\n\n20\n00:06:59,605 --> 00:07:22,046\n所以這次都跟你們都沒有關係都是在外面加碗在進來其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控啊因為我們也擔心說真的是從國內進來的所以事實上都是所以我的問題是說到底跟你們有沒有你們的相關的法規有沒有有沒有觸犯到你們任何的相關的法規目前是沒有目前是沒有那\n\n21\n00:07:23,047 --> 00:07:23,127\n總統都要\n\n22\n00:07:46,874 --> 00:07:54,207\n通通都要好那你們目前的這個有沒有足夠的人力跟能力去追蹤調查跟管理\n\n23\n00:07:55,552 --> 00:08:15,016\n當然人力是要持續補但是我們有希望環保局配合因為你們自己報告有講我的瞭解是你們已經培訓了13800多名的應變人員還有3區有10隊還在一個小時內可以達到事故現場然後還有兩個監控中心還有24小時全年無休的這個這個\n\n24\n00:08:18,832 --> 00:08:40,602\n但是環境事故應變中心但是你們就是也培訓了非常多的人所以就是說以這次蘇丹紅的事件你們是如何去執行你們的主管業務我們目前這個分開兩個一個剛剛委員所提的那個是指毒化災應變的部分那個體系包括所以剛剛一萬多人都跟這個都是沒有用毒化災在這裡就不好啊\n\n25\n00:08:41,162 --> 00:09:09,319\n不是那個就是有業界的包括訓練業界的這部分那我們在做毒化物這個稽查管制的話是主要是跟環保局那我們環保局然後我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去那大概就這樣所以你們現在是有足夠的能力人力去追蹤調查嗎要持續增加因為如果說公告的項目品項越來越多的話其實人力還是要再增加好那所以你剛剛有提到嘛各縣市的環保局那你們現在跟他們關係怎麼樣\n\n26\n00:09:11,172 --> 00:09:37,695\n我們其實在獨澳館裡面本來就是一個一個team然後我們也有補助他們這個人力大概有補助應該關係良好是還就合作上還可以你確定每個地方都還不錯啦我確定好你確定好很好那事實上你們是應該你們是屬於這個跨部會的這個業務但因為這個產業發展署還有這個職業安全衛生署還有食藥署以及農業部\n\n27\n00:09:39,817 --> 00:09:59,352\n農業部的這個甚至這個國科會的這個國際國科會的科技研發教育部大學的這個教學實驗其實都跟你們有這個密非常密切的關係那所以你們平常是有這個合作的平台嗎是雙邊還是說左邊的\n\n28\n00:10:01,570 --> 00:10:20,606\n有我們如果從因為我們從最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報那裡面就有各部會都要進來那議題上都會在這個會報還有這個會委員的諮詢會議我們部長是執行長那我們是還有一些跨部會的工作會議很多都會在這裡做討論\n\n29\n00:10:22,012 --> 00:10:47,817\n因為今天我在實務上有提了很多的問題那主要的目的其實就是說要督促你們不要把自己做小了你們責任是非常重大的因為現在已經升格為屬了那負責有這個政策規劃還有執行跟管理的責任那這個食安的問題如果說有你們正確無誤的資料那從這個上中下游\n\n30\n00:10:48,277 --> 00:10:48,737\n好,謝謝陳文的主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9598\t14152\t謝主席麻煩請我們薛部長還有化學署的謝主長\n18017\t43097\t陳瑩好部長好我想今天就針對有毒食用化學物質的管理有些問題要請教我想先請教一下在毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨跟任務是什麼\n44807\t63197\t好事實上是統整齁因為在105年的時候發生在這個之前事實上發生蠻多包括系統性的食安事件那那時候蔡總統就折騰那時候的環保署成立化學局那希望可以對國內\n69424\t80697\t所以主要還是為了這個把關這個食品安全的這個源頭然後整個提升我們食品安全的這個整個安全度的提升嗎\n82359\t104179\t首先最近大家討論蘇丹紅物質的事件蘇丹紅物質的毒性是工業用的產品並不能添加於食品這一類的物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質?它是屬於D4類的毒化物\n104679\t112304\t好那第4類的這個毒化物的部分你們不同的分類是不是有這個不同管理程度的這個分別?\n134899\t142870\t對阿相當嚴謹所以我剛剛問是說不同的分類是有那個不同管理程度或強度的這個不同好我們謝署長來回答一下\n145004\t170004\t報告委員其實一二三四類並不是說排名只不過是第一類是證據的多寡的問題第一類就是這個比如說持久性第二類慢毒性第三類急毒性那第四類的話就是有這個就是對環境或人體有健康的所以我們在管理上是強度是一樣的\n170486\t199269\t好謝謝那所以剛剛程度跟強度啦強度一樣那程度就基本上類別是不一樣嗎那再來就是說行政院這個食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級那也就是說他是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據然後可能會引起致癌性那因此這個健康安全的威脅有限這樣的說法是\n200309\t220664\t我想是不會被民眾是沒有辦法接受啦那我想請教一下就是部長看法是怎麼樣我想習主任他已經也道歉了啦齁因為他那一類是另外一種分類法齁那包括像第一類在自來的那一類第一類就是煙啦酒啦等等這些東西那第三類就是\n221484\t244592\t包括咖啡茶跟蘇丹紅阿事實上這個比喻是不恰當的我們現在在談的是毒化物的這一塊那我們國內的法規事實上也是規定在這一塊應該從這一塊來談但是蘇丹紅事件必須我想除了我們關心化學銀跟國內的這一塊事實上他還有其他部分\n245752\t267525\t我們真的必須要考慮因為他是以食品或者調味料塑膠粉的方式進來那在中國產地他把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面去所以才會整個案子是讓辛苦的衛福部他們變成食藥署在監察\n269346\t293391\t他們也是有點倒霉有發現了結果還要被大家罵那我想這次就是說後來你們這個化學署的這個資料庫有顯示進口的數量那對於說資料庫可以把這個蘇丹紅放進來變成這個作為第4類的毒化物我想這個部分國人會是都會予以肯定那現在只是說你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已\n294011\t321494\t那重要的是這個毒化物質的這個流布管理也就是distribution management的部分那這些物質都用到哪裡去了有沒有按照這個進口申報的目的去使用我想才是你們的任務才是這個管理的目的嘛那我想請教署長你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理然後如何確確的這個掌握數據的真實性還有哪些物質一定要做\n321934\t337997\t做這個流布的管理請你說明根本報告依照毒管法來講就我們公告的毒化或關節化學物質從要取得許可要申報就是從製造輸入販賣使用儲存一直到後面通通要取得許可\n338638\t340740\t那所以有哪些物質是一定要做流布管理?\n364238\t383096\t通通都要通通都要好那很好那我想這次的問題就是說這些工業用的這個物質就跑去變成了食品添加物那請問署長說這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們的任何的法規好因為我我都沒有聽到你們的聲音啊\n383877\t411603\t好像全部都是違反這個食安法好像就是然後是跟你們這個主管的法律都沒有關係嗎根本報告如果啦我們假設如果是國內的業者把蘇丹色素加到辣椒粉去那就是我們的事那就違反那個你說那個國內的業者對比如說我們的蘇丹色素有進口吧那有些業者就取得了然後就把它加到辣椒粉那這樣出來這個部分啊\n412645\t417883\t就是我們讀官法管轄的那就違反就把就在國內把他加進來這樣子就違反\n419605\t442046\t所以這次都跟你們都沒有關係都是在外面加碗在進來其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控啊因為我們也擔心說真的是從國內進來的所以事實上都是所以我的問題是說到底跟你們有沒有你們的相關的法規有沒有有沒有觸犯到你們任何的相關的法規目前是沒有目前是沒有那\n443047\t443127\t總統都要\n466874\t474207\t通通都要好那你們目前的這個有沒有足夠的人力跟能力去追蹤調查跟管理\n475552\t495016\t當然人力是要持續補但是我們有希望環保局配合因為你們自己報告有講我的瞭解是你們已經培訓了13800多名的應變人員還有3區有10隊還在一個小時內可以達到事故現場然後還有兩個監控中心還有24小時全年無休的這個這個\n498832\t520602\t但是環境事故應變中心但是你們就是也培訓了非常多的人所以就是說以這次蘇丹紅的事件你們是如何去執行你們的主管業務我們目前這個分開兩個一個剛剛委員所提的那個是指毒化災應變的部分那個體系包括所以剛剛一萬多人都跟這個都是沒有用毒化災在這裡就不好啊\n521162\t549319\t不是那個就是有業界的包括訓練業界的這部分那我們在做毒化物這個稽查管制的話是主要是跟環保局那我們環保局然後我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去那大概就這樣所以你們現在是有足夠的能力人力去追蹤調查嗎要持續增加因為如果說公告的項目品項越來越多的話其實人力還是要再增加好那所以你剛剛有提到嘛各縣市的環保局那你們現在跟他們關係怎麼樣\n551172\t577695\t我們其實在獨澳館裡面本來就是一個一個team然後我們也有補助他們這個人力大概有補助應該關係良好是還就合作上還可以你確定每個地方都還不錯啦我確定好你確定好很好那事實上你們是應該你們是屬於這個跨部會的這個業務但因為這個產業發展署還有這個職業安全衛生署還有食藥署以及農業部\n579817\t599352\t農業部的這個甚至這個國科會的這個國際國科會的科技研發教育部大學的這個教學實驗其實都跟你們有這個密非常密切的關係那所以你們平常是有這個合作的平台嗎是雙邊還是說左邊的\n601570\t620606\t有我們如果從因為我們從最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報那裡面就有各部會都要進來那議題上都會在這個會報還有這個會委員的諮詢會議我們部長是執行長那我們是還有一些跨部會的工作會議很多都會在這裡做討論\n622012\t647817\t因為今天我在實務上有提了很多的問題那主要的目的其實就是說要督促你們不要把自己做小了你們責任是非常重大的因為現在已經升格為屬了那負責有這個政策規劃還有執行跟管理的責任那這個食安的問題如果說有你們正確無誤的資料那從這個上中下游\n648277\t648737\t好,謝謝陳文的主席\n","txt":"謝主席麻煩請我們薛部長還有化學署的謝主長\n陳瑩好部長好我想今天就針對有毒食用化學物質的管理有些問題要請教我想先請教一下在毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨跟任務是什麼\n好事實上是統整齁因為在105年的時候發生在這個之前事實上發生蠻多包括系統性的食安事件那那時候蔡總統就折騰那時候的環保署成立化學局那希望可以對國內\n所以主要還是為了這個把關這個食品安全的這個源頭然後整個提升我們食品安全的這個整個安全度的提升嗎\n首先最近大家討論蘇丹紅物質的事件蘇丹紅物質的毒性是工業用的產品並不能添加於食品這一類的物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質?它是屬於D4類的毒化物\n好那第4類的這個毒化物的部分你們不同的分類是不是有這個不同管理程度的這個分別?\n對阿相當嚴謹所以我剛剛問是說不同的分類是有那個不同管理程度或強度的這個不同好我們謝署長來回答一下\n報告委員其實一二三四類並不是說排名只不過是第一類是證據的多寡的問題第一類就是這個比如說持久性第二類慢毒性第三類急毒性那第四類的話就是有這個就是對環境或人體有健康的所以我們在管理上是強度是一樣的\n好謝謝那所以剛剛程度跟強度啦強度一樣那程度就基本上類別是不一樣嗎那再來就是說行政院這個食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級那也就是說他是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據然後可能會引起致癌性那因此這個健康安全的威脅有限這樣的說法是\n我想是不會被民眾是沒有辦法接受啦那我想請教一下就是部長看法是怎麼樣我想習主任他已經也道歉了啦齁因為他那一類是另外一種分類法齁那包括像第一類在自來的那一類第一類就是煙啦酒啦等等這些東西那第三類就是\n包括咖啡茶跟蘇丹紅阿事實上這個比喻是不恰當的我們現在在談的是毒化物的這一塊那我們國內的法規事實上也是規定在這一塊應該從這一塊來談但是蘇丹紅事件必須我想除了我們關心化學銀跟國內的這一塊事實上他還有其他部分\n我們真的必須要考慮因為他是以食品或者調味料塑膠粉的方式進來那在中國產地他把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面去所以才會整個案子是讓辛苦的衛福部他們變成食藥署在監察\n他們也是有點倒霉有發現了結果還要被大家罵那我想這次就是說後來你們這個化學署的這個資料庫有顯示進口的數量那對於說資料庫可以把這個蘇丹紅放進來變成這個作為第4類的毒化物我想這個部分國人會是都會予以肯定那現在只是說你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已\n那重要的是這個毒化物質的這個流布管理也就是distribution management的部分那這些物質都用到哪裡去了有沒有按照這個進口申報的目的去使用我想才是你們的任務才是這個管理的目的嘛那我想請教署長你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理然後如何確確的這個掌握數據的真實性還有哪些物質一定要做\n做這個流布的管理請你說明根本報告依照毒管法來講就我們公告的毒化或關節化學物質從要取得許可要申報就是從製造輸入販賣使用儲存一直到後面通通要取得許可\n那所以有哪些物質是一定要做流布管理?\n通通都要通通都要好那很好那我想這次的問題就是說這些工業用的這個物質就跑去變成了食品添加物那請問署長說這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們的任何的法規好因為我我都沒有聽到你們的聲音啊\n好像全部都是違反這個食安法好像就是然後是跟你們這個主管的法律都沒有關係嗎根本報告如果啦我們假設如果是國內的業者把蘇丹色素加到辣椒粉去那就是我們的事那就違反那個你說那個國內的業者對比如說我們的蘇丹色素有進口吧那有些業者就取得了然後就把它加到辣椒粉那這樣出來這個部分啊\n就是我們讀官法管轄的那就違反就把就在國內把他加進來這樣子就違反\n所以這次都跟你們都沒有關係都是在外面加碗在進來其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控啊因為我們也擔心說真的是從國內進來的所以事實上都是所以我的問題是說到底跟你們有沒有你們的相關的法規有沒有有沒有觸犯到你們任何的相關的法規目前是沒有目前是沒有那\n總統都要\n通通都要好那你們目前的這個有沒有足夠的人力跟能力去追蹤調查跟管理\n當然人力是要持續補但是我們有希望環保局配合因為你們自己報告有講我的瞭解是你們已經培訓了13800多名的應變人員還有3區有10隊還在一個小時內可以達到事故現場然後還有兩個監控中心還有24小時全年無休的這個這個\n但是環境事故應變中心但是你們就是也培訓了非常多的人所以就是說以這次蘇丹紅的事件你們是如何去執行你們的主管業務我們目前這個分開兩個一個剛剛委員所提的那個是指毒化災應變的部分那個體系包括所以剛剛一萬多人都跟這個都是沒有用毒化災在這裡就不好啊\n不是那個就是有業界的包括訓練業界的這部分那我們在做毒化物這個稽查管制的話是主要是跟環保局那我們環保局然後我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去那大概就這樣所以你們現在是有足夠的能力人力去追蹤調查嗎要持續增加因為如果說公告的項目品項越來越多的話其實人力還是要再增加好那所以你剛剛有提到嘛各縣市的環保局那你們現在跟他們關係怎麼樣\n我們其實在獨澳館裡面本來就是一個一個team然後我們也有補助他們這個人力大概有補助應該關係良好是還就合作上還可以你確定每個地方都還不錯啦我確定好你確定好很好那事實上你們是應該你們是屬於這個跨部會的這個業務但因為這個產業發展署還有這個職業安全衛生署還有食藥署以及農業部\n農業部的這個甚至這個國科會的這個國際國科會的科技研發教育部大學的這個教學實驗其實都跟你們有這個密非常密切的關係那所以你們平常是有這個合作的平台嗎是雙邊還是說左邊的\n有我們如果從因為我們從最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報那裡面就有各部會都要進來那議題上都會在這個會報還有這個會委員的諮詢會議我們部長是執行長那我們是還有一些跨部會的工作會議很多都會在這裡做討論\n因為今天我在實務上有提了很多的問題那主要的目的其實就是說要督促你們不要把自己做小了你們責任是非常重大的因為現在已經升格為屬了那負責有這個政策規劃還有執行跟管理的責任那這個食安的問題如果說有你們正確無誤的資料那從這個上中下游\n好,謝謝陳文的主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.598 --> 00:14.152\n謝主席麻煩請我們薛部長還有化學署的謝主長\n\n00:18.017 --> 00:43.097\n陳瑩好部長好我想今天就針對有毒食用化學物質的管理有些問題要請教我想先請教一下在毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨跟任務是什麼\n\n00:44.807 --> 01:03.197\n好事實上是統整齁因為在105年的時候發生在這個之前事實上發生蠻多包括系統性的食安事件那那時候蔡總統就折騰那時候的環保署成立化學局那希望可以對國內\n\n01:09.424 --> 01:20.697\n所以主要還是為了這個把關這個食品安全的這個源頭然後整個提升我們食品安全的這個整個安全度的提升嗎\n\n01:22.359 --> 01:44.179\n首先最近大家討論蘇丹紅物質的事件蘇丹紅物質的毒性是工業用的產品並不能添加於食品這一類的物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質?它是屬於D4類的毒化物\n\n01:44.679 --> 01:52.304\n好那第4類的這個毒化物的部分你們不同的分類是不是有這個不同管理程度的這個分別?\n\n02:14.899 --> 02:22.870\n對阿相當嚴謹所以我剛剛問是說不同的分類是有那個不同管理程度或強度的這個不同好我們謝署長來回答一下\n\n02:25.004 --> 02:50.004\n報告委員其實一二三四類並不是說排名只不過是第一類是證據的多寡的問題第一類就是這個比如說持久性第二類慢毒性第三類急毒性那第四類的話就是有這個就是對環境或人體有健康的所以我們在管理上是強度是一樣的\n\n02:50.486 --> 03:19.269\n好謝謝那所以剛剛程度跟強度啦強度一樣那程度就基本上類別是不一樣嗎那再來就是說行政院這個食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級那也就是說他是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據然後可能會引起致癌性那因此這個健康安全的威脅有限這樣的說法是\n\n03:20.309 --> 03:40.664\n我想是不會被民眾是沒有辦法接受啦那我想請教一下就是部長看法是怎麼樣我想習主任他已經也道歉了啦齁因為他那一類是另外一種分類法齁那包括像第一類在自來的那一類第一類就是煙啦酒啦等等這些東西那第三類就是\n\n03:41.484 --> 04:04.592\n包括咖啡茶跟蘇丹紅阿事實上這個比喻是不恰當的我們現在在談的是毒化物的這一塊那我們國內的法規事實上也是規定在這一塊應該從這一塊來談但是蘇丹紅事件必須我想除了我們關心化學銀跟國內的這一塊事實上他還有其他部分\n\n04:05.752 --> 04:27.525\n我們真的必須要考慮因為他是以食品或者調味料塑膠粉的方式進來那在中國產地他把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面去所以才會整個案子是讓辛苦的衛福部他們變成食藥署在監察\n\n04:29.346 --> 04:53.391\n他們也是有點倒霉有發現了結果還要被大家罵那我想這次就是說後來你們這個化學署的這個資料庫有顯示進口的數量那對於說資料庫可以把這個蘇丹紅放進來變成這個作為第4類的毒化物我想這個部分國人會是都會予以肯定那現在只是說你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已\n\n04:54.011 --> 05:21.494\n那重要的是這個毒化物質的這個流布管理也就是distributionmanagement的部分那這些物質都用到哪裡去了有沒有按照這個進口申報的目的去使用我想才是你們的任務才是這個管理的目的嘛那我想請教署長你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理然後如何確確的這個掌握數據的真實性還有哪些物質一定要做\n\n05:21.934 --> 05:37.997\n做這個流布的管理請你說明根本報告依照毒管法來講就我們公告的毒化或關節化學物質從要取得許可要申報就是從製造輸入販賣使用儲存一直到後面通通要取得許可\n\n05:38.638 --> 05:40.740\n那所以有哪些物質是一定要做流布管理?\n\n06:04.238 --> 06:23.096\n通通都要通通都要好那很好那我想這次的問題就是說這些工業用的這個物質就跑去變成了食品添加物那請問署長說這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們的任何的法規好因為我我都沒有聽到你們的聲音啊\n\n06:23.877 --> 06:51.603\n好像全部都是違反這個食安法好像就是然後是跟你們這個主管的法律都沒有關係嗎根本報告如果啦我們假設如果是國內的業者把蘇丹色素加到辣椒粉去那就是我們的事那就違反那個你說那個國內的業者對比如說我們的蘇丹色素有進口吧那有些業者就取得了然後就把它加到辣椒粉那這樣出來這個部分啊\n\n06:52.645 --> 06:57.883\n就是我們讀官法管轄的那就違反就把就在國內把他加進來這樣子就違反\n\n06:59.605 --> 07:22.046\n所以這次都跟你們都沒有關係都是在外面加碗在進來其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控啊因為我們也擔心說真的是從國內進來的所以事實上都是所以我的問題是說到底跟你們有沒有你們的相關的法規有沒有有沒有觸犯到你們任何的相關的法規目前是沒有目前是沒有那\n\n07:23.047 --> 07:23.127\n總統都要\n\n07:46.874 --> 07:54.207\n通通都要好那你們目前的這個有沒有足夠的人力跟能力去追蹤調查跟管理\n\n07:55.552 --> 08:15.016\n當然人力是要持續補但是我們有希望環保局配合因為你們自己報告有講我的瞭解是你們已經培訓了13800多名的應變人員還有3區有10隊還在一個小時內可以達到事故現場然後還有兩個監控中心還有24小時全年無休的這個這個\n\n08:18.832 --> 08:40.602\n但是環境事故應變中心但是你們就是也培訓了非常多的人所以就是說以這次蘇丹紅的事件你們是如何去執行你們的主管業務我們目前這個分開兩個一個剛剛委員所提的那個是指毒化災應變的部分那個體系包括所以剛剛一萬多人都跟這個都是沒有用毒化災在這裡就不好啊\n\n08:41.162 --> 09:09.319\n不是那個就是有業界的包括訓練業界的這部分那我們在做毒化物這個稽查管制的話是主要是跟環保局那我們環保局然後我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去那大概就這樣所以你們現在是有足夠的能力人力去追蹤調查嗎要持續增加因為如果說公告的項目品項越來越多的話其實人力還是要再增加好那所以你剛剛有提到嘛各縣市的環保局那你們現在跟他們關係怎麼樣\n\n09:11.172 --> 09:37.695\n我們其實在獨澳館裡面本來就是一個一個team然後我們也有補助他們這個人力大概有補助應該關係良好是還就合作上還可以你確定每個地方都還不錯啦我確定好你確定好很好那事實上你們是應該你們是屬於這個跨部會的這個業務但因為這個產業發展署還有這個職業安全衛生署還有食藥署以及農業部\n\n09:39.817 --> 09:59.352\n農業部的這個甚至這個國科會的這個國際國科會的科技研發教育部大學的這個教學實驗其實都跟你們有這個密非常密切的關係那所以你們平常是有這個合作的平台嗎是雙邊還是說左邊的\n\n10:01.570 --> 10:20.606\n有我們如果從因為我們從最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報那裡面就有各部會都要進來那議題上都會在這個會報還有這個會委員的諮詢會議我們部長是執行長那我們是還有一些跨部會的工作會議很多都會在這裡做討論\n\n10:22.012 --> 10:47.817\n因為今天我在實務上有提了很多的問題那主要的目的其實就是說要督促你們不要把自己做小了你們責任是非常重大的因為現在已經升格為屬了那負責有這個政策規劃還有執行跟管理的責任那這個食安的問題如果說有你們正確無誤的資料那從這個上中下游\n\n10:48.277 --> 10:48.737\n好,謝謝陳文的主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.598,"end":14.152,"text":"謝主席麻煩請我們薛部長還有化學署的謝主長"},{"start":18.017,"end":43.097,"text":"陳瑩好部長好我想今天就針對有毒食用化學物質的管理有些問題要請教我想先請教一下在毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨跟任務是什麼"},{"start":44.807,"end":63.197,"text":"好事實上是統整齁因為在105年的時候發生在這個之前事實上發生蠻多包括系統性的食安事件那那時候蔡總統就折騰那時候的環保署成立化學局那希望可以對國內"},{"start":69.424,"end":80.697,"text":"所以主要還是為了這個把關這個食品安全的這個源頭然後整個提升我們食品安全的這個整個安全度的提升嗎"},{"start":82.359,"end":104.179,"text":"首先最近大家討論蘇丹紅物質的事件蘇丹紅物質的毒性是工業用的產品並不能添加於食品這一類的物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質?它是屬於D4類的毒化物"},{"start":104.679,"end":112.304,"text":"好那第4類的這個毒化物的部分你們不同的分類是不是有這個不同管理程度的這個分別?"},{"start":134.899,"end":142.87,"text":"對阿相當嚴謹所以我剛剛問是說不同的分類是有那個不同管理程度或強度的這個不同好我們謝署長來回答一下"},{"start":145.004,"end":170.004,"text":"報告委員其實一二三四類並不是說排名只不過是第一類是證據的多寡的問題第一類就是這個比如說持久性第二類慢毒性第三類急毒性那第四類的話就是有這個就是對環境或人體有健康的所以我們在管理上是強度是一樣的"},{"start":170.486,"end":199.269,"text":"好謝謝那所以剛剛程度跟強度啦強度一樣那程度就基本上類別是不一樣嗎那再來就是說行政院這個食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級那也就是說他是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據然後可能會引起致癌性那因此這個健康安全的威脅有限這樣的說法是"},{"start":200.309,"end":220.664,"text":"我想是不會被民眾是沒有辦法接受啦那我想請教一下就是部長看法是怎麼樣我想習主任他已經也道歉了啦齁因為他那一類是另外一種分類法齁那包括像第一類在自來的那一類第一類就是煙啦酒啦等等這些東西那第三類就是"},{"start":221.484,"end":244.592,"text":"包括咖啡茶跟蘇丹紅阿事實上這個比喻是不恰當的我們現在在談的是毒化物的這一塊那我們國內的法規事實上也是規定在這一塊應該從這一塊來談但是蘇丹紅事件必須我想除了我們關心化學銀跟國內的這一塊事實上他還有其他部分"},{"start":245.752,"end":267.525,"text":"我們真的必須要考慮因為他是以食品或者調味料塑膠粉的方式進來那在中國產地他把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面去所以才會整個案子是讓辛苦的衛福部他們變成食藥署在監察"},{"start":269.346,"end":293.391,"text":"他們也是有點倒霉有發現了結果還要被大家罵那我想這次就是說後來你們這個化學署的這個資料庫有顯示進口的數量那對於說資料庫可以把這個蘇丹紅放進來變成這個作為第4類的毒化物我想這個部分國人會是都會予以肯定那現在只是說你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已"},{"start":294.011,"end":321.494,"text":"那重要的是這個毒化物質的這個流布管理也就是distribution management的部分那這些物質都用到哪裡去了有沒有按照這個進口申報的目的去使用我想才是你們的任務才是這個管理的目的嘛那我想請教署長你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理然後如何確確的這個掌握數據的真實性還有哪些物質一定要做"},{"start":321.934,"end":337.997,"text":"做這個流布的管理請你說明根本報告依照毒管法來講就我們公告的毒化或關節化學物質從要取得許可要申報就是從製造輸入販賣使用儲存一直到後面通通要取得許可"},{"start":338.638,"end":340.74,"text":"那所以有哪些物質是一定要做流布管理?"},{"start":364.238,"end":383.096,"text":"通通都要通通都要好那很好那我想這次的問題就是說這些工業用的這個物質就跑去變成了食品添加物那請問署長說這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們的任何的法規好因為我我都沒有聽到你們的聲音啊"},{"start":383.877,"end":411.603,"text":"好像全部都是違反這個食安法好像就是然後是跟你們這個主管的法律都沒有關係嗎根本報告如果啦我們假設如果是國內的業者把蘇丹色素加到辣椒粉去那就是我們的事那就違反那個你說那個國內的業者對比如說我們的蘇丹色素有進口吧那有些業者就取得了然後就把它加到辣椒粉那這樣出來這個部分啊"},{"start":412.645,"end":417.883,"text":"就是我們讀官法管轄的那就違反就把就在國內把他加進來這樣子就違反"},{"start":419.605,"end":442.046,"text":"所以這次都跟你們都沒有關係都是在外面加碗在進來其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控啊因為我們也擔心說真的是從國內進來的所以事實上都是所以我的問題是說到底跟你們有沒有你們的相關的法規有沒有有沒有觸犯到你們任何的相關的法規目前是沒有目前是沒有那"},{"start":443.047,"end":443.127,"text":"總統都要"},{"start":466.874,"end":474.207,"text":"通通都要好那你們目前的這個有沒有足夠的人力跟能力去追蹤調查跟管理"},{"start":475.552,"end":495.016,"text":"當然人力是要持續補但是我們有希望環保局配合因為你們自己報告有講我的瞭解是你們已經培訓了13800多名的應變人員還有3區有10隊還在一個小時內可以達到事故現場然後還有兩個監控中心還有24小時全年無休的這個這個"},{"start":498.832,"end":520.602,"text":"但是環境事故應變中心但是你們就是也培訓了非常多的人所以就是說以這次蘇丹紅的事件你們是如何去執行你們的主管業務我們目前這個分開兩個一個剛剛委員所提的那個是指毒化災應變的部分那個體系包括所以剛剛一萬多人都跟這個都是沒有用毒化災在這裡就不好啊"},{"start":521.162,"end":549.319,"text":"不是那個就是有業界的包括訓練業界的這部分那我們在做毒化物這個稽查管制的話是主要是跟環保局那我們環保局然後我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去那大概就這樣所以你們現在是有足夠的能力人力去追蹤調查嗎要持續增加因為如果說公告的項目品項越來越多的話其實人力還是要再增加好那所以你剛剛有提到嘛各縣市的環保局那你們現在跟他們關係怎麼樣"},{"start":551.172,"end":577.695,"text":"我們其實在獨澳館裡面本來就是一個一個team然後我們也有補助他們這個人力大概有補助應該關係良好是還就合作上還可以你確定每個地方都還不錯啦我確定好你確定好很好那事實上你們是應該你們是屬於這個跨部會的這個業務但因為這個產業發展署還有這個職業安全衛生署還有食藥署以及農業部"},{"start":579.817,"end":599.352,"text":"農業部的這個甚至這個國科會的這個國際國科會的科技研發教育部大學的這個教學實驗其實都跟你們有這個密非常密切的關係那所以你們平常是有這個合作的平台嗎是雙邊還是說左邊的"},{"start":601.57,"end":620.606,"text":"有我們如果從因為我們從最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報那裡面就有各部會都要進來那議題上都會在這個會報還有這個會委員的諮詢會議我們部長是執行長那我們是還有一些跨部會的工作會議很多都會在這裡做討論"},{"start":622.012,"end":647.817,"text":"因為今天我在實務上有提了很多的問題那主要的目的其實就是說要督促你們不要把自己做小了你們責任是非常重大的因為現在已經升格為屬了那負責有這個政策規劃還有執行跟管理的責任那這個食安的問題如果說有你們正確無誤的資料那從這個上中下游"},{"start":648.277,"end":648.737,"text":"好,謝謝陳文的主席"}]}}}}