{"id":149956,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ae7ea20053fb482973919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a6c8ec6de0e82b202c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:58:57 - 10:15:16","影片長度":"00:16:19","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":979,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:15:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T09:58:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":481,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時59分）謝謝召委，有請我們法務部蔡部長、內政部警政署刑事警察局局長。"],["主席：請蔡部長、周局長上臺。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還要請廉政署署長。"],["主席：署長請上臺。"],["莊委員瑞雄：司法院副秘書長也請上來一下好不好？","部長，還有列席的所有官員，大家早。"],["蔡部長清祥：早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委，我給你建議，以後謝龍介的質詢，你要發兩個布袋戲偶給他，我們的官員也拿一個去操作，這樣才會有趣。","今天談偵查不公開，本席倒這樣認為，沒有去談個案的話，部長，我們只在這裡談原理、原則，實在意義不大啦！哪一些到底要公開、哪一些到底不公開，這個常常因為個案的發生社會有沒有去矚目，會產生一些爭議存在，那我一直認為，大家有這麼多都是法律人，偵查不公開這個原則，我相信這是法律人每一個人都耳熟能詳的幾個字，但是偵查不公開我們常常在說的主體，部長你認為是誰？是誰要受到這個約束？"],["蔡部長清祥：就是辦案的人員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：只有辦案的人員而已？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：行政部門應該沒有嘛？"],["蔡部長清祥：他如果有接觸到這個案件的內容，行政同仁當然也要遵守。"],["莊委員瑞雄：行政部門喔！我是說行政機關喔！不是偵查機關喔！"],["蔡部長清祥：行政機關也有可能因為偵查機關去問他意見，也接觸到案件的內容，這也要受到約束。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個部分就要受到約束？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那我今天必須要提出來，我們一直在談整個偵查不公開，它最主要為什麼要這樣規定？大家都知道一個案件發生之後，無罪推定嘛！有時候還在偵辦當中，會不會起訴都不知道，可是因為社會矚目，尤其是重大案件，常常新聞就開始炒起來，炒起來以後，在場如果有人是當被告的時候，到最後搞不好連起訴都不起訴，可是在這個過程裡面，這個當事人的名譽就會受到損害。我看到警政署刑事警察局這邊也有什麼督導小組啦！督察小組啦！法務部這裡也有，都有很多小組，可是這個談了幾十年，我覺得這無解啦，太過複雜了，承辦人員很難去一個一個拿來對這個原則是怎麼樣，很難去拿捏。常常到最後是因為媒體矚目，還是媒體記者來偷問你們一下，有時候是因為交情，有時候你們也會發布新聞，久了以後，人稍微都會去講一下，但是什麼情況之下要公開，什麼情況之下不能公開，這個就很難去拿捏。","所以我看到每一年都在討論這樣的事情，我們也知道偵查當中為了不讓整個偵查發生障礙，尤其是讓共犯去串證、逃亡或湮滅證據，所以偵查機關都希望這樣進行，不要受到干擾，可是在無罪推定底下，有時候常常經過媒體的披露，尤其是社會上矚目的案件，就會受到質疑和批評。我舉一個最近的案子，新竹縣長楊文科被控涉貪的案件，為什麼社會會這麼矚目，週刊一報導之後，社會譁然，怎麼會這樣？但是你站在當事人的立場來看的話，對他來講確實還在偵辦當中，結果新聞披露，甚至被認為是一個獨家報導，其他拿不到報導的媒體就會跟你說這違反偵查不公開。如果每個媒體都知道，搞不好又不談論這個問題，所以你要怎麼樣去拿捏，有時候在放消息或者涉及到公共利益的時候，適度地讓國人有知的權利，這個拿捏有時候會獨厚，我們最受詬病的就是放獨家，這個最麻煩，一個案件在偵查當中，我看事後披露出來都變實況轉播了，部長或周局長的看法怎麼樣？我認為這個部分確實要檢討。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員的指教，這確實是很困難，雖然法律明文規定得很清楚，但是要執行的時候，大家總是會有一些不同見解，譬如，刑事訴訟法本來是很簡單的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我看你們公布的細部規定有那麼多，我如果當你們的承辦我也不知道要怎麼辦，你知道嗎？有時候這其實都是一個文化，常常變成一個文化，因為媒體想要報導，媒體要等消息，所以適度讓他知道不是一件壞事，可是又涉及到無罪推定，很怕真的到最後人家連起訴都不起訴的話，整個名聲全部都被毀掉。我覺得這個真的是要慎重，尤其是放獨家，如果到最後是連起訴都不起訴，或者進入院方以後被判無罪判決確定以後，這對當事人的傷害太大了。所以我要講的是，不管是警察機關或者司法機關，放獨家的心態真的要改變，你要放就所有的媒體都給，你要適度的公開就針對這些人全部公開。我從20、30年前開始當律師就覺得這種放獨家的心態，對當事人有時候事後會造成不可挽救的傷害，不知道你的看法是怎樣？"],["蔡部長清祥：我同意委員的看法，因為我們的辦案人員真的要嚴守現在的規定，本來刑事訴訟法只有很簡單的「偵查不公開」這幾個字而已，慢慢地我們再訂定相關的行政規定，也比較嚴謹，讓大家有一個遵守的方法和原則，所以大家看到現在的規定越來越複雜，有例外，還有原則的例外的例外，所以大家心中要有一個標準。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有時候基層人員也很麻煩，我也要為我們警察人員講幾句話，譬如，同樣的案件我們在講偵查不公開，以上手銬來講就好了，如果是一個罪大惡極、十惡不赦的人，你給他上手銬，社會都不會說什麼，但是社工這個案件大家就講話了，我也覺得很麻煩，所以這個標準到底是怎樣？我倒不認為上手銬是違反偵查不公開，而是那樣的執行方式到底有沒有違反比例原則的問題，可是比例原則又要放在哪、是不是要一體適用？應該是要一體適用。可是如果所犯的罪行又不同就麻煩了，今天如果開槍、打死人的人，你給他上手銬，還戴護具、面罩，民眾就打電話來訐譙了，那種打死人的你幹嘛要保護他的名譽，講法又不同了，所以確實是很麻煩，但是我們也一直在精進。","我接下來要追問的是，譬如2009年中華職棒打假球案的時候，刑事警察局都有辦到這個案子，那個時候有很多球星因為打假球誤入歧途，離開球場，結束整個職業生涯。但是當時在偵查期間，我記得很清楚有一個球員叫陳峰民，周局長可能會知道，他並沒有打假球，可是因為他的資訊被公開以後，經過媒體報導，很多他的球迷就對他產生懷疑、批評、指責，到最後法院判決還他清白，可是他的名譽也受損了，他還在當打之年就沒有辦法繼續他的球員生涯，這些都是法律沒有辦法還給他的，部長，你覺得如何？"],["蔡部長清祥：確實是真的，所以我都有要求我們的同仁一定要非常謹慎，你要處理新聞可以公開在特定的場所，就哪一部分可以說明的，可以公開說明，不要獨厚某一家，這是一個原則。所以我們常常舉辦教育的研討會，教育我們的辦案人員，希望他們能夠遵守規定，在處理上要非常謹慎。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不能給的就每一家都不要給，能給的就每一家都給的話，大家就比較沒話說，本來社會大眾就有知的權利，維護整個公共利益，這都是有可能的，你們揭示的那麼多原則裡面有其必要性，可是給獨家就很怪了，所以我一直希望……"],["蔡部長清祥：委員，我可以再說明一下嗎？媒體有時候很厲害，它有很多不同的管道得到訊息，然後它就寫出來了，大家都以為這是檢調警洩漏的，其實不然、不是這樣子啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：知情者有誰？檢察官、調查局、法警、書記官、辯護人，辯護人去放比較不可能。"],["蔡部長清祥：也是有可能。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我偷問下來的結果都是你們，大部分都是因為你們跟人家有私交，有時候都是刑事警察局自己跟人家有私交，調查局也跟人家有私交，你們都會跟人家說用看的就好，不要用印的，這個撇步大家都知道，不是沒有，這個真的要改進。我的意思是偵查不公開這個部分，所有的司法人員應該都知道，只是為了讓社會大眾適度地有知的權利，或者整個公眾利益的考量，大家也知道是可以的。但是如果可以，不可能只有一家可以，其他不可以，我覺得這樣不好，到最後都會產生很多的紛爭出來。","剛剛你提到的部分，檢察官甚至偵辦人員、受調查協助的行政人員是偵查不公開的主體，我簡單問，像2020年前年底國人個資外洩的事件，出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的個資，包括身分證號碼、姓名、戶籍、原住民身分、兵役別及遷入時間這些資料。大家在猜都是從內政部這邊流出去的，國人也都很想知道到底從哪裡出去的，所以台灣人權促進會於去年3月依照政府資訊公開法向內政部申請公開，持有這些戶政資料的機關有哪些，內政部卻說偵查不公開，這樣對嗎？這樣有沒有違反？我的問題很具體。"],["蔡部長清祥：當然，在偵查當中有需要去瞭解這個人的個資，我們會行文，或是我們有一個特別的管道去瞭解，這都是依法的，如果在偵查當中，這些資料是不應該對外洩漏的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是內政部不是偵查主體的時候呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：內政部也不能洩漏，你如果懷疑……"],["莊委員瑞雄：它當然不能洩漏，我現在要問的是，到底是哪些機關持有？這樣就很好判別了。"],["蔡部長清祥：很多機關，不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你認為這個不說也不違反偵查不公開。"],["蔡部長清祥：不說的話，他們內部也要自己去調查，個資的洩漏本來就在行政上有責任的，應該要去瞭解洩漏的方法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我最後再來追問，召委不好意思，再1分鐘就好。我要請問刑事警察局周局長，部長先請回。在2021年11月跟騷防制法三讀通過，並在隔年的6月施行，就是將跟騷行為明確入罪，並導入了一個書面告誡、保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線，副秘書長請回一下。當被害人報案以後，警政機關會開立書面告誡給行為人，明確告知已經違法，如果兩年內再犯，被害人可以向法院聲請保護令，再違反保護令會面臨刑責。現在問題來了，跟騷法施行到現在快兩年的時間，本席看到從111年6月到今年1月底，一共受理4,944件，開立的書面告誡3,480件，違反書面告誡315件，依數據顯示現行開立書面告誡雖然只是一個行政文書，但至少確實有減緩後續跟蹤騷擾的情況發生。","可是我舉個例子，去年韓國的企鵝妹來臺灣環島全程直播，有黑衣人跟蹤、尾隨他，粉絲報警將他帶回去之後，最後跟騷法規定書面告誡，但是我們在書面告誡、保護令以前是在跟行為人說警方已經介入，如果行為人有違法的事實，當時在整個跟騷法的立法過程裡面，我們本來就有很多討論了。我以這個例子來看，當他環島差不多半個月、甚至1個月左右，假設這名男子在接受到書面告誡以後又再犯，聲請保護令以後直到核發的這一段時間內，像這樣你們要如何去保障被害人的安全？"],["周局長幼偉：報告委員，這個案子的話，因為我們各地都有警察，如果在這個過程中他仍持續的跟蹤，我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題，我們都會繼續來保護當事人。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思就是被害人要去向法院聲請保護令以後，但違反的超過一半，有一半的機會是違反保護令的，對這段時間要好好去研討一下，因為我們是說三年檢討，現在也兩年了，未雨綢繆啦！"],["周局長幼偉：我們會再來檢討看看保護令發出來以後，他還有再犯情形的這部分，如果被害人有再提出來，我們警察都會主動來關注。"],["莊委員瑞雄：因為我特別提醒，我在內政委員會提出質詢以後，我很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組、相關研討會，那時候我們有做附帶決議喔！三年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方，好好規劃，局長好不好？"],["周局長幼偉：是，好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：OK。"],["周局長幼偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"149956","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149956","tool":"pyannote","id":"149956-pyannote"},"job_id":"hbQ4xBBT5zTSc35b","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"甚至於偵辦人員甚至於受調查協助的那些行政人員是正在不公開的主題我簡單問啦像在2020年前年底了這個國人的個資外洩的事件出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的一個個資包括新聞監護費啦、名啦、戶籍啦、萬族民新聞啦兵役別跟遷入時間這一些這個大家在猜的是從內政部那邊流出去\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 689.722, \"end\": 689.882, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 689.882, \"end\": 689.982, \"score\": 0.6}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 689.982, \"end\": 690.383, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 690.383, \"end\": 690.963, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 690.963, \"end\": 691.143, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 691.143, \"end\": 691.324, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 691.324, \"end\": 691.624, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 691.624, \"end\": 691.964, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 691.964, \"end\": 692.645, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 692.645, \"end\": 692.785, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 735.311, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 738.834, \"end\": 740.815, \"text\": \"但是內政部就是偵查主體嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 738.834, \"end\": 739.634, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 739.634, \"end\": 739.794, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 739.794, \"end\": 740.094, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 740.094, \"end\": 740.215, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 740.215, \"end\": 740.315, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 740.315, \"end\": 740.575, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 740.575, \"end\": 740.795, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 740.795, \"end\": 740.815, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 763.674, \"end\": 779.144, \"text\": \"所以內政部他也不能洩露啊你如果懷疑說他當然不能洩露啊我現在是要問到底你們是哪些機關持有啊很多機關啊不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已啊所以你建議說這個人不要講也是不違反偵查不公開\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 763.674, 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\"報告委員這個案子的話因為我們各地都有警察如果說在這個過程裡面然後能持續的跟蹤的話我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題我們都會繼續來保護這個我的意思就是說你這個被害人要去向法院申請保護令以後但去違反的時候高達一半 超過一半\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 910.366, \"end\": 910.486, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 910.486, \"end\": 912.087, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 912.087, \"end\": 912.287, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 912.287, \"end\": 912.387, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 912.387, \"end\": 913.168, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 913.168, \"end\": 913.408, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 913.408, \"end\": 914.068, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 914.068, \"end\": 914.208, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 914.208, \"end\": 914.348, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 914.348, \"end\": 914.488, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 918.03, \"end\": 918.21, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 918.21, \"end\": 918.53, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"蹤\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 918.53, \"end\": 918.911, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 918.911, \"end\": 919.071, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 919.071, \"end\": 919.211, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 919.211, \"end\": 919.531, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 919.531, \"end\": 919.671, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 919.671, \"end\": 919.931, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 919.931, \"end\": 920.391, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 920.391, \"end\": 920.491, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 920.491, \"end\": 920.531, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 920.531, \"end\": 920.752, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 920.752, \"end\": 920.872, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 920.872, \"end\": 921.192, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 921.192, \"end\": 921.712, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 921.712, \"end\": 921.972, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 921.972, \"end\": 922.673, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 922.673, \"end\": 923.373, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 923.373, \"end\": 923.573, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 923.573, \"end\": 923.693, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 923.693, \"end\": 923.913, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 923.913, \"end\": 924.113, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 924.113, \"end\": 924.273, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 924.273, \"end\": 924.974, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 924.974, \"end\": 926.535, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 926.535, \"end\": 926.695, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 926.695, \"end\": 926.815, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 926.815, \"end\": 926.935, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 926.935, \"end\": 927.075, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 927.075, \"end\": 927.195, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 927.195, \"end\": 927.435, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 927.435, \"end\": 927.595, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 927.595, \"end\": 927.695, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 927.695, \"end\": 928.075, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 928.075, \"end\": 928.316, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 928.316, \"end\": 928.496, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 928.496, \"end\": 928.616, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 928.616, \"end\": 928.856, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 928.856, \"end\": 929.036, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 929.036, \"end\": 929.556, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 929.556, \"end\": 929.756, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 929.756, \"end\": 929.896, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 929.896, \"end\": 930.197, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 930.197, \"end\": 931.257, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 931.257, \"end\": 931.377, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 931.377, \"end\": 931.777, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"超\", \"start\": 931.777, \"end\": 932.098, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 932.098, \"end\": 932.198, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 932.198, \"end\": 932.218, \"score\": 0.811}]}, {\"start\": 933.398, \"end\": 942.224, \"text\": \"這個有一半的機會是違反這個保護令的從這段時間裡面要好好去研討一下因為我們是說三年檢討啦現在也兩年啦未雨綢繆啦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 933.398, \"end\": 933.538, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 933.538, \"end\": 933.698, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 933.698, \"end\": 933.859, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 933.859, \"end\": 934.299, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 934.299, \"end\": 934.599, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 934.599, \"end\": 935.019, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 935.019, \"end\": 935.46, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 935.46, \"end\": 935.72, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 935.72, \"end\": 937.401, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 937.401, \"end\": 937.761, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 937.761, \"end\": 938.501, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 938.501, \"end\": 938.661, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 938.661, \"end\": 938.862, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 938.862, \"end\": 938.982, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 938.982, \"end\": 939.102, \"score\": 0.551}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 939.102, \"end\": 939.602, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 939.602, \"end\": 939.702, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 939.702, \"end\": 940.282, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 940.282, \"end\": 940.683, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 940.683, \"end\": 941.003, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 941.003, \"end\": 941.443, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 941.443, \"end\": 941.683, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 941.683, \"end\": 941.703, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 941.703, \"end\": 941.863, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 941.863, \"end\": 941.983, \"score\": 0.489}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 941.983, \"end\": 942.003, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 942.003, \"end\": 942.023, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 942.023, \"end\": 942.164, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 942.164, \"end\": 942.184, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"雨\", \"start\": 942.184, \"end\": 942.204, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"綢\"}, {\"word\": \"繆\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 942.204, \"end\": 942.224, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 946.81, \"end\": 975.411, \"text\": \"我們會再來檢討看看是這個中間保護令發出來以後他還有再犯的情形這個部分因為大部分那個我們警察都還會對這個部分如果有被害人再提出來或我們警察都會主動來關注因為我特別提醒喔這個我在內政委員會裡面提出諮詢以後我也很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組相關研討會那時候我們有做附帶決議喔三年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方好好規劃好不好局長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 946.81, \"end\": 947.21, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 947.21, \"end\": 948.091, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 948.091, \"end\": 948.231, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 948.231, \"end\": 948.391, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 948.391, \"end\": 948.832, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 948.832, \"end\": 949.352, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 949.352, \"end\": 949.672, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 949.672, \"end\": 950.393, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 950.393, \"end\": 950.633, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 950.633, \"end\": 950.733, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 950.733, \"end\": 950.833, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 950.833, \"end\": 951.173, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 951.173, \"end\": 951.293, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 951.293, \"end\": 951.453, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 951.453, \"end\": 951.574, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 951.574, \"end\": 951.694, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 951.694, \"end\": 951.854, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"形\", \"start\": 951.854, \"end\": 952.214, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 952.214, \"end\": 952.334, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 952.334, \"end\": 952.454, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 952.454, \"end\": 952.614, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 952.614, \"end\": 952.714, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 952.714, \"end\": 952.754, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 952.754, \"end\": 953.455, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 953.455, \"end\": 953.995, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 953.995, \"end\": 954.276, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 954.276, \"end\": 954.416, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 954.416, \"end\": 954.576, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 954.576, \"end\": 955.356, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 955.356, \"end\": 955.496, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 955.496, \"end\": 955.677, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 955.677, \"end\": 955.777, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 955.777, \"end\": 955.877, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 955.877, \"end\": 956.037, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 956.037, \"end\": 956.157, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 956.157, \"end\": 956.277, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 956.277, \"end\": 956.657, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 956.657, \"end\": 956.837, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 956.837, \"end\": 956.997, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 956.997, \"end\": 957.278, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 957.278, \"end\": 957.398, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 957.398, \"end\": 957.598, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 957.598, \"end\": 957.758, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 957.758, \"end\": 957.918, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 957.918, \"end\": 958.138, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 958.138, \"end\": 958.258, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 958.258, \"end\": 958.959, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 958.959, \"end\": 959.059, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 959.059, \"end\": 959.179, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 959.179, \"end\": 959.299, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 959.299, \"end\": 959.399, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 959.399, \"end\": 959.539, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 959.539, \"end\": 959.699, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 959.699, \"end\": 960.16, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 960.16, \"end\": 960.26, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 960.26, \"end\": 960.48, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 960.48, \"end\": 960.62, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 960.62, \"end\": 961.1, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 961.1, \"end\": 961.261, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 961.261, \"end\": 961.381, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 961.381, \"end\": 961.801, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"諮\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 961.801, \"end\": 961.901, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 961.901, \"end\": 962.301, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 962.301, \"end\": 962.381, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 962.381, \"end\": 962.401, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 962.401, \"end\": 962.581, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 962.581, \"end\": 962.862, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 976.373, \"end\": 976.393, \"score\": 0.03}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:36,771\n謝謝召委﹖有請我們法務部蔡部長﹖還有我們內政部警政署﹖行政局局長有來請蔡部長、州局長﹖請廉政署署長﹖好,署長請上台司法院副秘書長請上來一下好不好部長還有我們列席的所有的觀眾,大家早\n\n2\n00:00:38,592 --> 00:00:39,953\n這個本來哪一些到底要公開哪一些到底不公開\n\n3\n00:01:08,150 --> 00:01:36,001\n這個常常因為個案裡面在發生社會有沒有去矚目會有產生一些爭議存在那我一直認為我們我相信你們大家全部都是這麼多都是法律人這個偵查不公開這個原則我相信這個法律人每一個人都耳熟能詳的一個幾個字但是偵查不公開我們常常在說的主體不中立議就差不多\n\n4\n00:01:37,307 --> 00:01:50,543\n什麼人要收到這個約束?就是辦案的領完嘛!只說辦案領完而已嘛!行政部門誰應該沒有嘛!他如果接觸到這個案件的內容,行政同仁當然也要遵守啦!\n\n5\n00:01:51,784 --> 00:02:11,638\n行政部門喔我是說行政機關喔不是偵查機關喔行政機關也有可能我們偵查機關去問他意見他會接觸到案件的內容這也是要受到約束啦這個部分就要受到約束啦那我今天必須要提出來就是說我們一直在談這個整個偵查不公開啊那最主要為什麼要這樣規定大家都知道說一個案件發生之後\n\n6\n00:02:18,342 --> 00:02:33,177\n無罪推定嘛有些人在申辦當中會不會起訴都不知道可是呢因為社會矚目啊尤其是重大案件啊經常新聞就開始一直炒起來啊炒起來之後你再看你做了什麼在場如果有人是當被告的時候到最後搞不好連起訴都不起訴啊\n\n7\n00:02:37,349 --> 00:02:49,236\n可是呢,在這個過程裡面,這個當事人的名譽就會受到損害啊所以呢,我們定定的,我看那個警政署、刑事警察局這邊也有什麼督導小組啦、督察小組啦、法務部部長也有啦,都很多小組啊可是呢,這個談了幾十年啦,我覺得這不該啦,太複雜啦\n\n8\n00:02:59,402 --> 00:02:59,862\n常常是到最後媒體主幕或媒體記者來討論\n\n9\n00:03:11,079 --> 00:03:22,624\n有時候你搞事有時候你買發布新聞人久了以後稍微都會去講一下但是什麼情況之下要去公開什麼情況之下不能去公開這個就很難去做這樣所以我看每一年都在一直在爭討討論這樣的一個事情\n\n10\n00:03:35,658 --> 00:03:51,869\n我們也知道偵查當中我們為了說不讓這整個偵查發生障礙尤其是讓共犯去串證逃亡或是淹沒證據那所以呢我們都希望說偵查機關我如果偵查機關我也希望這樣來進行不要受到干擾可是在這個無罪推定底下有時候常常我們經過媒體這樣的一個披露尤其社會上矚目的案件就會受到質疑跟批評我舉\n\n11\n00:04:05,014 --> 00:04:12,579\n最近的一個案子啦你說新竹縣長楊文科這個被控涉探這個案件啊為什麼社會這樣會去矚目你週刊一個報導之後社會哗然說喔怎麼會這樣你站在當事人的立場來看的話對他來講的話確實啊還在偵辦當中啊那你整個新聞去做一個披露甚至被認為是一個獨家報導我如果其他的站不上的媒體喔我就跟他說你這個違反偵查不公開啦那大家媒體都知道喔他搞不好又不談論這個問題啦\n\n12\n00:04:35,342 --> 00:04:49,613\n所以這個你怎麼樣去拿捏有時候在放消息或者說涉及到公共利益適度讓去國人有知的權利這個拿捏我需要您去讀後我看常常我們最受詬病的放獨家\n\n13\n00:04:53,334 --> 00:05:01,303\n這個最麻煩有時候案件在偵查當中差不多我看事後披露出來好像變實況轉播起來所以我不知道補充還是周局長你們這邊的看法是怎麼樣我是認為這個部分確實要檢討\n\n14\n00:05:09,577 --> 00:05:27,930\n是,謝謝委員的指教這確實是很困難雖然法律明文的規定很清楚但是要執行的時候總是會有一些大家的見解不同我只看你公布的西部規定就那麼多你再叫我來做你的成本我也不知道要怎麼辦你知道嗎有時候這個其實就是一個文化有時候常常變成一個文化\n\n15\n00:05:36,004 --> 00:05:48,511\n每天想要報啊每天要擔小心啊適度去讓他知道不是一件壞事啊可是又涉及到這個無罪推定啊很怕真的是到最後如果是人家連擠出都不擠出的話整個民生全部都毀掉啊\n\n16\n00:05:49,762 --> 00:06:04,106\n我是覺得這個真的要去慎重尤其是這個放毒家常常到最後如果是無罪到最後連起訴都不起訴或者是到進入院方以後被判一個無罪判決確定以後這對董事員的傷害太大所以我要講的是說這個不管是警察機關或者我們司法機關這個放毒家這個心態真的要改變你要不要讓大家的媒體10天在這裡你都給他\n\n17\n00:06:19,153 --> 00:06:19,453\n主席\n\n18\n00:06:36,018 --> 00:07:00,789\n不可挽救的一個傷害,你不來看法如何?是,我同意委員的看法,因為我們這個辦案人員真的是要嚴守我們現在的規定本來其實說很簡單的,只是說偵查不公開這幾年而已,不然我們再頂一關相關的行政規定,比較嚴謹,讓大家有一個遵守的方法跟原則嘛,所以大家看到現在規定越來越複雜了嘛\n\n19\n00:07:03,030 --> 00:07:06,171\n有時候基層人員很麻煩我有時候會為我們警察人員講幾句話你像譬如說同樣的案件我們在講說偵查不公開在上手銬就好了如果是一個十大惡極的十惡不赦的你給他上手銬社會都不會公安\n\n20\n00:07:30,697 --> 00:07:33,338\n都不會說什麼社工這傢伙都會說什麼我也覺得很麻煩所以這個標準到底是要怎麼樣我倒不認為說那個上首靠那個是違反偵查不公開我倒會覺得說那樣的一個執行的方式到底有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題可是這個比例原則又要放在哪是不是要一體適用\n\n21\n00:07:56,068 --> 00:07:59,872\n太愛一體適用可是如果所犯的罪行又不同麻煩了你今天如果開場的怕死人的你給他上手銬你再給他戴一個護具整個面罩給他用的民眾就怕死人的來趕走\n\n22\n00:08:14,656 --> 00:08:19,177\n一看就害怕死人了你又幹嘛保護他的名譽講法又不同了所以確實是很麻煩但是我們也一直在精進那我倒是接下來要去追問的就是說你像譬如說在2009年我們那個中華職棒打假球案的時候這個現在叫你都辦得對那個時候有很多球星\n\n23\n00:08:39,642 --> 00:08:56,975\n因為這個打假球誤入歧途離開這個球場結束他整個職業的一個生涯但是當時在偵查期間我記得很清楚一個叫陳鋒敏那個球員我看周局長你可能會知道他並沒有打假球可是因為他的資訊被公開以後你說要每天報到\n\n24\n00:08:58,325 --> 00:09:19,615\n那很多人他的球迷就對他懷疑、批評、指責到最後法案判決還他清白可是呢民意也受損還在當打之年他就沒有辦法繼續他的球員生涯這些都是法律沒有辦法去還給他的人\n\n25\n00:09:23,694 --> 00:09:36,462\n所以我都要求我們的同仁一定要非常的謹慎那你要處理新聞我們可以用一個公開在特定的場所那就哪一部分可以來說明的\n\n26\n00:09:37,362 --> 00:09:52,380\n可以公開的說明,不要獨厚某一家這是一個原則啦所以我們常常也辦告邀的研討會告邀我們的辦案人員希望能夠遵守規定在處理上要非常的謹慎\n\n27\n00:09:53,661 --> 00:10:13,066\n不能給的就每一家都不要給啦。能給的你每一家都去給的話,大家都又看不為公了。這個本來就是社會大權我知的權利嘛,維護了整個公共利益嘛,這都有可能的嘛。你們揭示了那麼多一個原則裡面,那個有它的一個必要性,可是給獨家這個就很怪啦。\n\n28\n00:10:15,467 --> 00:10:19,029\n可以像檢察官、調查局、法警、書記官、辯護人、辯護人去訪比較不可能嗎?也是有可能啊其實我討論問問你們\n\n29\n00:10:44,465 --> 00:10:45,926\n改進啦這個真的是要改進啦我的意思就是說偵查不公開這個部分\n\n30\n00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:05,640\n檢察官\n\n31\n00:11:29,722 --> 00:11:55,783\n甚至於偵辦人員甚至於受調查協助的那些行政人員是正在不公開的主題我簡單問啦像在2020年前年底了這個國人的個資外洩的事件出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的一個個資包括新聞監護費啦、名啦、戶籍啦、萬族民新聞啦兵役別跟遷入時間這一些這個大家在猜的是從內政部那邊流出去\n\n32\n00:11:57,805 --> 00:12:15,311\n那國人也都很想知道說到底從哪裡出去所以臺灣人權促進會議去年3月就依照政府資訊公開法向內政部去申請能夠公開就是說到底什麼人持有這些附證資料的機關是由哪一些在這方面也說偵查不公開欸?這樣對不對?這樣有違反嗎?我這個這樣很具體啊\n\n33\n00:12:18,834 --> 00:12:20,815\n但是內政部就是偵查主體嗎?\n\n34\n00:12:43,674 --> 00:12:59,144\n所以內政部他也不能洩露啊你如果懷疑說他當然不能洩露啊我現在是要問到底你們是哪些機關持有啊很多機關啊不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已啊所以你建議說這個人不要講也是不違反偵查不公開\n\n35\n00:13:00,407 --> 00:13:20,720\n不要說他自己來不及去調查啦這個是各自的洩漏本來就是他行政上有那個證人嘛應該要去了解什麼洩漏方法我最後再來追問啦稍微抱歉幾分鐘就好就是說新市警察局州局長部長先請回一下我們在2021年11月跟騷把那個跟騷\n\n36\n00:13:22,264 --> 00:13:39,989\n防治法三讀通過．並在隔年的6月施行就是說將根梢行為明確去做一個入罪．並導入了一個叫書面告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線副秘書長請回一下那當被害人報案以後警政機關你會開立書面告誡給行為人明確告知已經違法\n\n37\n00:13:40,709 --> 00:13:47,476\n如果兩年內再犯的話被害人可以向法院民事申請保護令再違反保護令的話會面臨刑責現在問題來了我看根沙法實行到現在快兩年的時間本席看了從111年6月到今年1月底一共受理的4944件\n\n38\n00:14:00,450 --> 00:14:00,790\n但是我舉個例子\n\n39\n00:14:21,229 --> 00:14:24,730\n古年韓國的直播媒直播企鵝媒來台灣全程直播在環島黑衣人去跟蹤尾隨未有粉絲去報警把他抓回去了最後跟騷法規定書面告誡但是呢\n\n40\n00:14:36,789 --> 00:14:59,347\n我們的書面告誡依然保齡依然是在跟他說警方已經介入了,跟行為人說你違法的事實當時在整個根沙發整個立法過程裡面,我們就有很多討論了我以這個例子來看,當他環島差不多半個月甚至一個月左右假設這名男子在接受到書面告誡以後,又再犯\n\n41\n00:15:00,287 --> 00:15:08,177\n啊申請保護令以後核發時間一段時間啊就這樣你們要如何去保障被害人的一個安全\n\n42\n00:15:10,366 --> 00:15:32,218\n報告委員這個案子的話因為我們各地都有警察如果說在這個過程裡面然後能持續的跟蹤的話我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題我們都會繼續來保護這個我的意思就是說你這個被害人要去向法院申請保護令以後但去違反的時候高達一半超過一半\n\n43\n00:15:33,398 --> 00:15:42,224\n這個有一半的機會是違反這個保護令的從這段時間裡面要好好去研討一下因為我們是說三年檢討啦現在也兩年啦未雨綢繆啦\n\n44\n00:15:46,810 --> 00:16:15,411\n我們會再來檢討看看是這個中間保護令發出來以後他還有再犯的情形這個部分因為大部分那個我們警察都還會對這個部分如果有被害人再提出來或我們警察都會主動來關注因為我特別提醒喔這個我在內政委員會裡面提出諮詢以後我也很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組相關研討會那時候我們有做附帶決議喔三年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方好好規劃好不好局長\n\n45\n00:16:16,032 --> 00:16:16,393\n好謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11960\t36771\t謝謝召委﹖有請我們法務部蔡部長﹖還有我們內政部警政署﹖行政局局長有來請蔡部長、州局長﹖請廉政署署長﹖好,署長請上台司法院副秘書長請上來一下好不好部長還有我們列席的所有的觀眾,大家早\n38592\t39953\t這個本來哪一些到底要公開哪一些到底不公開\n68150\t96001\t這個常常因為個案裡面在發生社會有沒有去矚目會有產生一些爭議存在那我一直認為我們我相信你們大家全部都是這麼多都是法律人這個偵查不公開這個原則我相信這個法律人每一個人都耳熟能詳的一個幾個字但是偵查不公開我們常常在說的主體不中立議就差不多\n97307\t110543\t什麼人要收到這個約束?就是辦案的領完嘛!只說辦案領完而已嘛!行政部門誰應該沒有嘛!他如果接觸到這個案件的內容,行政同仁當然也要遵守啦!\n111784\t131638\t行政部門喔我是說行政機關喔不是偵查機關喔行政機關也有可能我們偵查機關去問他意見他會接觸到案件的內容這也是要受到約束啦這個部分就要受到約束啦那我今天必須要提出來就是說我們一直在談這個整個偵查不公開啊那最主要為什麼要這樣規定大家都知道說一個案件發生之後\n138342\t153177\t無罪推定嘛 有些人在申辦當中會不會起訴都不知道可是呢 因為社會矚目啊 尤其是重大案件啊經常新聞就開始一直炒起來啊炒起來之後你再看你做了什麼在場如果有人是當被告的時候 到最後 搞不好連起訴都不起訴啊\n157349\t169236\t可是呢,在這個過程裡面,這個當事人的名譽就會受到損害啊所以呢,我們定定的,我看那個警政署、刑事警察局這邊也有什麼督導小組啦、督察小組啦、法務部部長也有啦,都很多小組啊可是呢,這個談了幾十年啦,我覺得這不該啦,太複雜啦\n179402\t179862\t常常是到最後媒體主幕或媒體記者來討論\n191079\t202624\t有時候你搞事有時候你買發布新聞人久了以後稍微都會去講一下但是什麼情況之下要去公開什麼情況之下不能去公開這個就很難去做這樣所以我看每一年都在一直在爭討討論這樣的一個事情\n215658\t231869\t我們也知道偵查當中我們為了說不讓這整個偵查發生障礙尤其是讓共犯去串證逃亡或是淹沒證據那所以呢我們都希望說偵查機關我如果偵查機關我也希望這樣來進行不要受到干擾可是在這個無罪推定底下有時候常常我們經過媒體這樣的一個披露尤其社會上矚目的案件就會受到質疑跟批評我舉\n245014\t252579\t最近的一個案子啦你說新竹縣長楊文科這個被控涉探這個案件啊為什麼社會這樣會去矚目你週刊一個報導之後社會哗然說 喔 怎麼會這樣你站在當事人的立場來看的話對他來講的話確實啊還在偵辦當中啊那你整個新聞去做一個披露甚至被認為是一個獨家報導我如果其他的站不上的媒體喔我就跟他說你這個違反偵查不公開啦那大家媒體都知道喔他搞不好又不談論這個問題啦\n275342\t289613\t所以這個你怎麼樣去拿捏有時候在放消息或者說涉及到公共利益適度讓去國人有知的權利這個拿捏我需要您去讀後我看常常我們最受詬病的放獨家\n293334\t301303\t這個最麻煩有時候案件在偵查當中差不多我看事後披露出來好像變實況轉播起來所以我不知道補充還是周局長你們這邊的看法是怎麼樣我是認為這個部分確實要檢討\n309577\t327930\t是,謝謝委員的指教這確實是很困難雖然法律明文的規定很清楚但是要執行的時候總是會有一些大家的見解不同我只看你公布的西部規定就那麼多你再叫我來做你的成本我也不知道要怎麼辦你知道嗎有時候這個其實就是一個文化有時候常常變成一個文化\n336004\t348511\t每天想要報啊每天要擔小心啊適度去讓他知道不是一件壞事啊可是又涉及到這個無罪推定啊很怕真的是到最後如果是人家連擠出都不擠出的話整個民生全部都毀掉啊\n349762\t364106\t我是覺得這個真的要去慎重尤其是這個放毒家常常到最後如果是無罪到最後連起訴都不起訴或者是到進入院方以後被判一個無罪判決確定以後這對董事員的傷害太大所以我要講的是說這個不管是警察機關或者我們司法機關這個放毒家這個心態真的要改變你要不要讓大家的媒體10天在這裡你都給他\n379153\t379453\t主席\n396018\t420789\t不可挽救的一個傷害,你不來看法如何?是,我同意委員的看法,因為我們這個辦案人員真的是要嚴守我們現在的規定本來其實說很簡單的,只是說偵查不公開這幾年而已,不然我們再頂一關相關的行政規定,比較嚴謹,讓大家有一個遵守的方法跟原則嘛,所以大家看到現在規定越來越複雜了嘛\n423030\t426171\t有時候基層人員很麻煩我有時候會為我們警察人員講幾句話你像譬如說同樣的案件我們在講說偵查不公開在上手銬就好了如果是一個十大惡極的十惡不赦的你給他上手銬社會都不會公安\n450697\t453338\t都不會說什麼社工這傢伙都會說什麼我也覺得很麻煩所以這個標準到底是要怎麼樣我倒不認為說那個上首靠那個是違反偵查不公開我倒會覺得說那樣的一個執行的方式到底有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題可是這個比例原則又要放在哪是不是要一體適用\n476068\t479872\t太愛一體適用可是如果所犯的罪行又不同麻煩了你今天如果開場的怕死人的你給他上手銬你再給他戴一個護具整個面罩給他用的民眾就怕死人的來趕走\n494656\t499177\t一看就害怕死人了你又幹嘛保護他的名譽講法又不同了所以確實是很麻煩但是我們也一直在精進那我倒是接下來要去追問的就是說你像譬如說在2009年我們那個中華職棒打假球案的時候這個現在叫你都辦得對那個時候有很多球星\n519642\t536975\t因為這個打假球誤入歧途離開這個球場結束他整個職業的一個生涯但是當時在偵查期間我記得很清楚一個叫陳鋒敏那個球員我看周局長你可能會知道他並沒有打假球可是因為他的資訊被公開以後你說要每天報到\n538325\t559615\t那很多人他的球迷就對他懷疑、批評、指責到最後法案判決還他清白可是呢民意也受損還在當打之年他就沒有辦法繼續他的球員生涯這些都是法律沒有辦法去還給他的人\n563694\t576462\t所以我都要求我們的同仁一定要非常的謹慎那你要處理新聞我們可以用一個公開在特定的場所那就哪一部分可以來說明的\n577362\t592380\t可以公開的說明,不要獨厚某一家這是一個原則啦所以我們常常也辦告邀的研討會告邀我們的辦案人員希望能夠遵守規定在處理上要非常的謹慎\n593661\t613066\t不能給的就每一家都不要給啦。能給的你每一家都去給的話,大家都又看不為公了。這個本來就是社會大權我知的權利嘛,維護了整個公共利益嘛,這都有可能的嘛。你們揭示了那麼多一個原則裡面,那個有它的一個必要性,可是給獨家這個就很怪啦。\n615467\t619029\t可以像檢察官、調查局、法警、書記官、辯護人、辯護人去訪比較不可能嗎?也是有可能啊其實我討論問問你們\n644465\t645926\t改進啦 這個真的是要改進啦 我的意思就是說偵查不公開這個部分\n665560\t665640\t檢察官\n689722\t715783\t甚至於偵辦人員甚至於受調查協助的那些行政人員是正在不公開的主題我簡單問啦像在2020年前年底了這個國人的個資外洩的事件出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的一個個資包括新聞監護費啦、名啦、戶籍啦、萬族民新聞啦兵役別跟遷入時間這一些這個大家在猜的是從內政部那邊流出去\n717805\t735311\t那國人也都很想知道說到底從哪裡出去所以臺灣人權促進會議去年3月就依照政府資訊公開法向內政部去申請能夠公開就是說到底什麼人持有這些附證資料的機關是由哪一些在這方面也說偵查不公開欸?這樣對不對?這樣有違反嗎?我這個這樣很具體啊\n738834\t740815\t但是內政部就是偵查主體嗎?\n763674\t779144\t所以內政部他也不能洩露啊你如果懷疑說他當然不能洩露啊我現在是要問到底你們是哪些機關持有啊很多機關啊不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已啊所以你建議說這個人不要講也是不違反偵查不公開\n780407\t800720\t不要說他自己來不及去調查啦這個是各自的洩漏本來就是他行政上有那個證人嘛應該要去了解什麼洩漏方法我最後再來追問啦稍微抱歉幾分鐘就好就是說新市警察局州局長部長先請回一下我們在2021年11月跟騷把那個跟騷\n802264\t819989\t防治法三讀通過．並在隔年的6月施行就是說將根梢行為明確去做一個入罪．並導入了一個叫書面告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線副秘書長請回一下那當被害人報案以後警政機關你會開立書面告誡給行為人明確告知已經違法\n820709\t827476\t如果兩年內再犯的話 被害人可以向法院民事申請保護令再違反保護令的話 會面臨刑責現在問題來了我看根沙法實行到現在快兩年的時間本席看了從111年6月到今年1月底一共受理的4944件\n840450\t840790\t但是我舉個例子\n861229\t864730\t古年韓國的直播媒 直播企鵝媒來台灣 全程直播在環島黑衣人去跟蹤 尾隨 未有粉絲去報警 把他抓回去了最後 跟騷法規定 書面告誡 但是呢\n876789\t899347\t我們的書面告誡依然保齡依然是在跟他說警方已經介入了,跟行為人說你違法的事實當時在整個根沙發整個立法過程裡面,我們就有很多討論了我以這個例子來看,當他環島差不多半個月甚至一個月左右假設這名男子在接受到書面告誡以後,又再犯\n900287\t908177\t啊 申請保護令以後 核發時間一段時間啊就這樣你們要如何去保障被害人的一個安全\n910366\t932218\t報告委員這個案子的話因為我們各地都有警察如果說在這個過程裡面然後能持續的跟蹤的話我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題我們都會繼續來保護這個我的意思就是說你這個被害人要去向法院申請保護令以後但去違反的時候高達一半 超過一半\n933398\t942224\t這個有一半的機會是違反這個保護令的從這段時間裡面要好好去研討一下因為我們是說三年檢討啦現在也兩年啦未雨綢繆啦\n946810\t975411\t我們會再來檢討看看是這個中間保護令發出來以後他還有再犯的情形這個部分因為大部分那個我們警察都還會對這個部分如果有被害人再提出來或我們警察都會主動來關注因為我特別提醒喔這個我在內政委員會裡面提出諮詢以後我也很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組相關研討會那時候我們有做附帶決議喔三年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方好好規劃好不好局長\n976032\t976393\t好 謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝召委﹖有請我們法務部蔡部長﹖還有我們內政部警政署﹖行政局局長有來請蔡部長、州局長﹖請廉政署署長﹖好,署長請上台司法院副秘書長請上來一下好不好部長還有我們列席的所有的觀眾,大家早\n這個本來哪一些到底要公開哪一些到底不公開\n這個常常因為個案裡面在發生社會有沒有去矚目會有產生一些爭議存在那我一直認為我們我相信你們大家全部都是這麼多都是法律人這個偵查不公開這個原則我相信這個法律人每一個人都耳熟能詳的一個幾個字但是偵查不公開我們常常在說的主體不中立議就差不多\n什麼人要收到這個約束?就是辦案的領完嘛!只說辦案領完而已嘛!行政部門誰應該沒有嘛!他如果接觸到這個案件的內容,行政同仁當然也要遵守啦!\n行政部門喔我是說行政機關喔不是偵查機關喔行政機關也有可能我們偵查機關去問他意見他會接觸到案件的內容這也是要受到約束啦這個部分就要受到約束啦那我今天必須要提出來就是說我們一直在談這個整個偵查不公開啊那最主要為什麼要這樣規定大家都知道說一個案件發生之後\n無罪推定嘛 有些人在申辦當中會不會起訴都不知道可是呢 因為社會矚目啊 尤其是重大案件啊經常新聞就開始一直炒起來啊炒起來之後你再看你做了什麼在場如果有人是當被告的時候 到最後 搞不好連起訴都不起訴啊\n可是呢,在這個過程裡面,這個當事人的名譽就會受到損害啊所以呢,我們定定的,我看那個警政署、刑事警察局這邊也有什麼督導小組啦、督察小組啦、法務部部長也有啦,都很多小組啊可是呢,這個談了幾十年啦,我覺得這不該啦,太複雜啦\n常常是到最後媒體主幕或媒體記者來討論\n有時候你搞事有時候你買發布新聞人久了以後稍微都會去講一下但是什麼情況之下要去公開什麼情況之下不能去公開這個就很難去做這樣所以我看每一年都在一直在爭討討論這樣的一個事情\n我們也知道偵查當中我們為了說不讓這整個偵查發生障礙尤其是讓共犯去串證逃亡或是淹沒證據那所以呢我們都希望說偵查機關我如果偵查機關我也希望這樣來進行不要受到干擾可是在這個無罪推定底下有時候常常我們經過媒體這樣的一個披露尤其社會上矚目的案件就會受到質疑跟批評我舉\n最近的一個案子啦你說新竹縣長楊文科這個被控涉探這個案件啊為什麼社會這樣會去矚目你週刊一個報導之後社會哗然說 喔 怎麼會這樣你站在當事人的立場來看的話對他來講的話確實啊還在偵辦當中啊那你整個新聞去做一個披露甚至被認為是一個獨家報導我如果其他的站不上的媒體喔我就跟他說你這個違反偵查不公開啦那大家媒體都知道喔他搞不好又不談論這個問題啦\n所以這個你怎麼樣去拿捏有時候在放消息或者說涉及到公共利益適度讓去國人有知的權利這個拿捏我需要您去讀後我看常常我們最受詬病的放獨家\n這個最麻煩有時候案件在偵查當中差不多我看事後披露出來好像變實況轉播起來所以我不知道補充還是周局長你們這邊的看法是怎麼樣我是認為這個部分確實要檢討\n是,謝謝委員的指教這確實是很困難雖然法律明文的規定很清楚但是要執行的時候總是會有一些大家的見解不同我只看你公布的西部規定就那麼多你再叫我來做你的成本我也不知道要怎麼辦你知道嗎有時候這個其實就是一個文化有時候常常變成一個文化\n每天想要報啊每天要擔小心啊適度去讓他知道不是一件壞事啊可是又涉及到這個無罪推定啊很怕真的是到最後如果是人家連擠出都不擠出的話整個民生全部都毀掉啊\n我是覺得這個真的要去慎重尤其是這個放毒家常常到最後如果是無罪到最後連起訴都不起訴或者是到進入院方以後被判一個無罪判決確定以後這對董事員的傷害太大所以我要講的是說這個不管是警察機關或者我們司法機關這個放毒家這個心態真的要改變你要不要讓大家的媒體10天在這裡你都給他\n主席\n不可挽救的一個傷害,你不來看法如何?是,我同意委員的看法,因為我們這個辦案人員真的是要嚴守我們現在的規定本來其實說很簡單的,只是說偵查不公開這幾年而已,不然我們再頂一關相關的行政規定,比較嚴謹,讓大家有一個遵守的方法跟原則嘛,所以大家看到現在規定越來越複雜了嘛\n有時候基層人員很麻煩我有時候會為我們警察人員講幾句話你像譬如說同樣的案件我們在講說偵查不公開在上手銬就好了如果是一個十大惡極的十惡不赦的你給他上手銬社會都不會公安\n都不會說什麼社工這傢伙都會說什麼我也覺得很麻煩所以這個標準到底是要怎麼樣我倒不認為說那個上首靠那個是違反偵查不公開我倒會覺得說那樣的一個執行的方式到底有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題可是這個比例原則又要放在哪是不是要一體適用\n太愛一體適用可是如果所犯的罪行又不同麻煩了你今天如果開場的怕死人的你給他上手銬你再給他戴一個護具整個面罩給他用的民眾就怕死人的來趕走\n一看就害怕死人了你又幹嘛保護他的名譽講法又不同了所以確實是很麻煩但是我們也一直在精進那我倒是接下來要去追問的就是說你像譬如說在2009年我們那個中華職棒打假球案的時候這個現在叫你都辦得對那個時候有很多球星\n因為這個打假球誤入歧途離開這個球場結束他整個職業的一個生涯但是當時在偵查期間我記得很清楚一個叫陳鋒敏那個球員我看周局長你可能會知道他並沒有打假球可是因為他的資訊被公開以後你說要每天報到\n那很多人他的球迷就對他懷疑、批評、指責到最後法案判決還他清白可是呢民意也受損還在當打之年他就沒有辦法繼續他的球員生涯這些都是法律沒有辦法去還給他的人\n所以我都要求我們的同仁一定要非常的謹慎那你要處理新聞我們可以用一個公開在特定的場所那就哪一部分可以來說明的\n可以公開的說明,不要獨厚某一家這是一個原則啦所以我們常常也辦告邀的研討會告邀我們的辦案人員希望能夠遵守規定在處理上要非常的謹慎\n不能給的就每一家都不要給啦。能給的你每一家都去給的話,大家都又看不為公了。這個本來就是社會大權我知的權利嘛,維護了整個公共利益嘛,這都有可能的嘛。你們揭示了那麼多一個原則裡面,那個有它的一個必要性,可是給獨家這個就很怪啦。\n可以像檢察官、調查局、法警、書記官、辯護人、辯護人去訪比較不可能嗎?也是有可能啊其實我討論問問你們\n改進啦 這個真的是要改進啦 我的意思就是說偵查不公開這個部分\n檢察官\n甚至於偵辦人員甚至於受調查協助的那些行政人員是正在不公開的主題我簡單問啦像在2020年前年底了這個國人的個資外洩的事件出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的一個個資包括新聞監護費啦、名啦、戶籍啦、萬族民新聞啦兵役別跟遷入時間這一些這個大家在猜的是從內政部那邊流出去\n那國人也都很想知道說到底從哪裡出去所以臺灣人權促進會議去年3月就依照政府資訊公開法向內政部去申請能夠公開就是說到底什麼人持有這些附證資料的機關是由哪一些在這方面也說偵查不公開欸?這樣對不對?這樣有違反嗎?我這個這樣很具體啊\n但是內政部就是偵查主體嗎?\n所以內政部他也不能洩露啊你如果懷疑說他當然不能洩露啊我現在是要問到底你們是哪些機關持有啊很多機關啊不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已啊所以你建議說這個人不要講也是不違反偵查不公開\n不要說他自己來不及去調查啦這個是各自的洩漏本來就是他行政上有那個證人嘛應該要去了解什麼洩漏方法我最後再來追問啦稍微抱歉幾分鐘就好就是說新市警察局州局長部長先請回一下我們在2021年11月跟騷把那個跟騷\n防治法三讀通過．並在隔年的6月施行就是說將根梢行為明確去做一個入罪．並導入了一個叫書面告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線副秘書長請回一下那當被害人報案以後警政機關你會開立書面告誡給行為人明確告知已經違法\n如果兩年內再犯的話 被害人可以向法院民事申請保護令再違反保護令的話 會面臨刑責現在問題來了我看根沙法實行到現在快兩年的時間本席看了從111年6月到今年1月底一共受理的4944件\n但是我舉個例子\n古年韓國的直播媒 直播企鵝媒來台灣 全程直播在環島黑衣人去跟蹤 尾隨 未有粉絲去報警 把他抓回去了最後 跟騷法規定 書面告誡 但是呢\n我們的書面告誡依然保齡依然是在跟他說警方已經介入了,跟行為人說你違法的事實當時在整個根沙發整個立法過程裡面,我們就有很多討論了我以這個例子來看,當他環島差不多半個月甚至一個月左右假設這名男子在接受到書面告誡以後,又再犯\n啊 申請保護令以後 核發時間一段時間啊就這樣你們要如何去保障被害人的一個安全\n報告委員這個案子的話因為我們各地都有警察如果說在這個過程裡面然後能持續的跟蹤的話我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題我們都會繼續來保護這個我的意思就是說你這個被害人要去向法院申請保護令以後但去違反的時候高達一半 超過一半\n這個有一半的機會是違反這個保護令的從這段時間裡面要好好去研討一下因為我們是說三年檢討啦現在也兩年啦未雨綢繆啦\n我們會再來檢討看看是這個中間保護令發出來以後他還有再犯的情形這個部分因為大部分那個我們警察都還會對這個部分如果有被害人再提出來或我們警察都會主動來關注因為我特別提醒喔這個我在內政委員會裡面提出諮詢以後我也很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組相關研討會那時候我們有做附帶決議喔三年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方好好規劃好不好局長\n好 謝謝委員好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.960 --> 00:36.771\n謝謝召委﹖有請我們法務部蔡部長﹖還有我們內政部警政署﹖行政局局長有來請蔡部長、州局長﹖請廉政署署長﹖好,署長請上台司法院副秘書長請上來一下好不好部長還有我們列席的所有的觀眾,大家早\n\n00:38.592 --> 00:39.953\n這個本來哪一些到底要公開哪一些到底不公開\n\n01:08.150 --> 01:36.001\n這個常常因為個案裡面在發生社會有沒有去矚目會有產生一些爭議存在那我一直認為我們我相信你們大家全部都是這麼多都是法律人這個偵查不公開這個原則我相信這個法律人每一個人都耳熟能詳的一個幾個字但是偵查不公開我們常常在說的主體不中立議就差不多\n\n01:37.307 --> 01:50.543\n什麼人要收到這個約束?就是辦案的領完嘛!只說辦案領完而已嘛!行政部門誰應該沒有嘛!他如果接觸到這個案件的內容,行政同仁當然也要遵守啦!\n\n01:51.784 --> 02:11.638\n行政部門喔我是說行政機關喔不是偵查機關喔行政機關也有可能我們偵查機關去問他意見他會接觸到案件的內容這也是要受到約束啦這個部分就要受到約束啦那我今天必須要提出來就是說我們一直在談這個整個偵查不公開啊那最主要為什麼要這樣規定大家都知道說一個案件發生之後\n\n02:18.342 --> 02:33.177\n無罪推定嘛有些人在申辦當中會不會起訴都不知道可是呢因為社會矚目啊尤其是重大案件啊經常新聞就開始一直炒起來啊炒起來之後你再看你做了什麼在場如果有人是當被告的時候到最後搞不好連起訴都不起訴啊\n\n02:37.349 --> 02:49.236\n可是呢,在這個過程裡面,這個當事人的名譽就會受到損害啊所以呢,我們定定的,我看那個警政署、刑事警察局這邊也有什麼督導小組啦、督察小組啦、法務部部長也有啦,都很多小組啊可是呢,這個談了幾十年啦,我覺得這不該啦,太複雜啦\n\n02:59.402 --> 02:59.862\n常常是到最後媒體主幕或媒體記者來討論\n\n03:11.079 --> 03:22.624\n有時候你搞事有時候你買發布新聞人久了以後稍微都會去講一下但是什麼情況之下要去公開什麼情況之下不能去公開這個就很難去做這樣所以我看每一年都在一直在爭討討論這樣的一個事情\n\n03:35.658 --> 03:51.869\n我們也知道偵查當中我們為了說不讓這整個偵查發生障礙尤其是讓共犯去串證逃亡或是淹沒證據那所以呢我們都希望說偵查機關我如果偵查機關我也希望這樣來進行不要受到干擾可是在這個無罪推定底下有時候常常我們經過媒體這樣的一個披露尤其社會上矚目的案件就會受到質疑跟批評我舉\n\n04:05.014 --> 04:12.579\n最近的一個案子啦你說新竹縣長楊文科這個被控涉探這個案件啊為什麼社會這樣會去矚目你週刊一個報導之後社會哗然說喔怎麼會這樣你站在當事人的立場來看的話對他來講的話確實啊還在偵辦當中啊那你整個新聞去做一個披露甚至被認為是一個獨家報導我如果其他的站不上的媒體喔我就跟他說你這個違反偵查不公開啦那大家媒體都知道喔他搞不好又不談論這個問題啦\n\n04:35.342 --> 04:49.613\n所以這個你怎麼樣去拿捏有時候在放消息或者說涉及到公共利益適度讓去國人有知的權利這個拿捏我需要您去讀後我看常常我們最受詬病的放獨家\n\n04:53.334 --> 05:01.303\n這個最麻煩有時候案件在偵查當中差不多我看事後披露出來好像變實況轉播起來所以我不知道補充還是周局長你們這邊的看法是怎麼樣我是認為這個部分確實要檢討\n\n05:09.577 --> 05:27.930\n是,謝謝委員的指教這確實是很困難雖然法律明文的規定很清楚但是要執行的時候總是會有一些大家的見解不同我只看你公布的西部規定就那麼多你再叫我來做你的成本我也不知道要怎麼辦你知道嗎有時候這個其實就是一個文化有時候常常變成一個文化\n\n05:36.004 --> 05:48.511\n每天想要報啊每天要擔小心啊適度去讓他知道不是一件壞事啊可是又涉及到這個無罪推定啊很怕真的是到最後如果是人家連擠出都不擠出的話整個民生全部都毀掉啊\n\n05:49.762 --> 06:04.106\n我是覺得這個真的要去慎重尤其是這個放毒家常常到最後如果是無罪到最後連起訴都不起訴或者是到進入院方以後被判一個無罪判決確定以後這對董事員的傷害太大所以我要講的是說這個不管是警察機關或者我們司法機關這個放毒家這個心態真的要改變你要不要讓大家的媒體10天在這裡你都給他\n\n06:19.153 --> 06:19.453\n主席\n\n06:36.018 --> 07:00.789\n不可挽救的一個傷害,你不來看法如何?是,我同意委員的看法,因為我們這個辦案人員真的是要嚴守我們現在的規定本來其實說很簡單的,只是說偵查不公開這幾年而已,不然我們再頂一關相關的行政規定,比較嚴謹,讓大家有一個遵守的方法跟原則嘛,所以大家看到現在規定越來越複雜了嘛\n\n07:03.030 --> 07:06.171\n有時候基層人員很麻煩我有時候會為我們警察人員講幾句話你像譬如說同樣的案件我們在講說偵查不公開在上手銬就好了如果是一個十大惡極的十惡不赦的你給他上手銬社會都不會公安\n\n07:30.697 --> 07:33.338\n都不會說什麼社工這傢伙都會說什麼我也覺得很麻煩所以這個標準到底是要怎麼樣我倒不認為說那個上首靠那個是違反偵查不公開我倒會覺得說那樣的一個執行的方式到底有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題可是這個比例原則又要放在哪是不是要一體適用\n\n07:56.068 --> 07:59.872\n太愛一體適用可是如果所犯的罪行又不同麻煩了你今天如果開場的怕死人的你給他上手銬你再給他戴一個護具整個面罩給他用的民眾就怕死人的來趕走\n\n08:14.656 --> 08:19.177\n一看就害怕死人了你又幹嘛保護他的名譽講法又不同了所以確實是很麻煩但是我們也一直在精進那我倒是接下來要去追問的就是說你像譬如說在2009年我們那個中華職棒打假球案的時候這個現在叫你都辦得對那個時候有很多球星\n\n08:39.642 --> 08:56.975\n因為這個打假球誤入歧途離開這個球場結束他整個職業的一個生涯但是當時在偵查期間我記得很清楚一個叫陳鋒敏那個球員我看周局長你可能會知道他並沒有打假球可是因為他的資訊被公開以後你說要每天報到\n\n08:58.325 --> 09:19.615\n那很多人他的球迷就對他懷疑、批評、指責到最後法案判決還他清白可是呢民意也受損還在當打之年他就沒有辦法繼續他的球員生涯這些都是法律沒有辦法去還給他的人\n\n09:23.694 --> 09:36.462\n所以我都要求我們的同仁一定要非常的謹慎那你要處理新聞我們可以用一個公開在特定的場所那就哪一部分可以來說明的\n\n09:37.362 --> 09:52.380\n可以公開的說明,不要獨厚某一家這是一個原則啦所以我們常常也辦告邀的研討會告邀我們的辦案人員希望能夠遵守規定在處理上要非常的謹慎\n\n09:53.661 --> 10:13.066\n不能給的就每一家都不要給啦。能給的你每一家都去給的話,大家都又看不為公了。這個本來就是社會大權我知的權利嘛,維護了整個公共利益嘛,這都有可能的嘛。你們揭示了那麼多一個原則裡面,那個有它的一個必要性,可是給獨家這個就很怪啦。\n\n10:15.467 --> 10:19.029\n可以像檢察官、調查局、法警、書記官、辯護人、辯護人去訪比較不可能嗎?也是有可能啊其實我討論問問你們\n\n10:44.465 --> 10:45.926\n改進啦這個真的是要改進啦我的意思就是說偵查不公開這個部分\n\n11:05.560 --> 11:05.640\n檢察官\n\n11:29.722 --> 11:55.783\n甚至於偵辦人員甚至於受調查協助的那些行政人員是正在不公開的主題我簡單問啦像在2020年前年底了這個國人的個資外洩的事件出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的一個個資包括新聞監護費啦、名啦、戶籍啦、萬族民新聞啦兵役別跟遷入時間這一些這個大家在猜的是從內政部那邊流出去\n\n11:57.805 --> 12:15.311\n那國人也都很想知道說到底從哪裡出去所以臺灣人權促進會議去年3月就依照政府資訊公開法向內政部去申請能夠公開就是說到底什麼人持有這些附證資料的機關是由哪一些在這方面也說偵查不公開欸?這樣對不對?這樣有違反嗎?我這個這樣很具體啊\n\n12:18.834 --> 12:20.815\n但是內政部就是偵查主體嗎?\n\n12:43.674 --> 12:59.144\n所以內政部他也不能洩露啊你如果懷疑說他當然不能洩露啊我現在是要問到底你們是哪些機關持有啊很多機關啊不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已啊所以你建議說這個人不要講也是不違反偵查不公開\n\n13:00.407 --> 13:20.720\n不要說他自己來不及去調查啦這個是各自的洩漏本來就是他行政上有那個證人嘛應該要去了解什麼洩漏方法我最後再來追問啦稍微抱歉幾分鐘就好就是說新市警察局州局長部長先請回一下我們在2021年11月跟騷把那個跟騷\n\n13:22.264 --> 13:39.989\n防治法三讀通過．並在隔年的6月施行就是說將根梢行為明確去做一個入罪．並導入了一個叫書面告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線副秘書長請回一下那當被害人報案以後警政機關你會開立書面告誡給行為人明確告知已經違法\n\n13:40.709 --> 13:47.476\n如果兩年內再犯的話被害人可以向法院民事申請保護令再違反保護令的話會面臨刑責現在問題來了我看根沙法實行到現在快兩年的時間本席看了從111年6月到今年1月底一共受理的4944件\n\n14:00.450 --> 14:00.790\n但是我舉個例子\n\n14:21.229 --> 14:24.730\n古年韓國的直播媒直播企鵝媒來台灣全程直播在環島黑衣人去跟蹤尾隨未有粉絲去報警把他抓回去了最後跟騷法規定書面告誡但是呢\n\n14:36.789 --> 14:59.347\n我們的書面告誡依然保齡依然是在跟他說警方已經介入了,跟行為人說你違法的事實當時在整個根沙發整個立法過程裡面,我們就有很多討論了我以這個例子來看,當他環島差不多半個月甚至一個月左右假設這名男子在接受到書面告誡以後,又再犯\n\n15:00.287 --> 15:08.177\n啊申請保護令以後核發時間一段時間啊就這樣你們要如何去保障被害人的一個安全\n\n15:10.366 --> 15:32.218\n報告委員這個案子的話因為我們各地都有警察如果說在這個過程裡面然後能持續的跟蹤的話我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題我們都會繼續來保護這個我的意思就是說你這個被害人要去向法院申請保護令以後但去違反的時候高達一半超過一半\n\n15:33.398 --> 15:42.224\n這個有一半的機會是違反這個保護令的從這段時間裡面要好好去研討一下因為我們是說三年檢討啦現在也兩年啦未雨綢繆啦\n\n15:46.810 --> 16:15.411\n我們會再來檢討看看是這個中間保護令發出來以後他還有再犯的情形這個部分因為大部分那個我們警察都還會對這個部分如果有被害人再提出來或我們警察都會主動來關注因為我特別提醒喔這個我在內政委員會裡面提出諮詢以後我也很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組相關研討會那時候我們有做附帶決議喔三年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方好好規劃好不好局長\n\n16:16.032 --> 16:16.393\n好謝謝委員好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.96,"end":36.771,"text":"謝謝召委﹖有請我們法務部蔡部長﹖還有我們內政部警政署﹖行政局局長有來請蔡部長、州局長﹖請廉政署署長﹖好,署長請上台司法院副秘書長請上來一下好不好部長還有我們列席的所有的觀眾,大家早"},{"start":38.592,"end":39.953,"text":"這個本來哪一些到底要公開哪一些到底不公開"},{"start":68.15,"end":96.001,"text":"這個常常因為個案裡面在發生社會有沒有去矚目會有產生一些爭議存在那我一直認為我們我相信你們大家全部都是這麼多都是法律人這個偵查不公開這個原則我相信這個法律人每一個人都耳熟能詳的一個幾個字但是偵查不公開我們常常在說的主體不中立議就差不多"},{"start":97.307,"end":110.543,"text":"什麼人要收到這個約束?就是辦案的領完嘛!只說辦案領完而已嘛!行政部門誰應該沒有嘛!他如果接觸到這個案件的內容,行政同仁當然也要遵守啦!"},{"start":111.784,"end":131.638,"text":"行政部門喔我是說行政機關喔不是偵查機關喔行政機關也有可能我們偵查機關去問他意見他會接觸到案件的內容這也是要受到約束啦這個部分就要受到約束啦那我今天必須要提出來就是說我們一直在談這個整個偵查不公開啊那最主要為什麼要這樣規定大家都知道說一個案件發生之後"},{"start":138.342,"end":153.177,"text":"無罪推定嘛 有些人在申辦當中會不會起訴都不知道可是呢 因為社會矚目啊 尤其是重大案件啊經常新聞就開始一直炒起來啊炒起來之後你再看你做了什麼在場如果有人是當被告的時候 到最後 搞不好連起訴都不起訴啊"},{"start":157.349,"end":169.236,"text":"可是呢,在這個過程裡面,這個當事人的名譽就會受到損害啊所以呢,我們定定的,我看那個警政署、刑事警察局這邊也有什麼督導小組啦、督察小組啦、法務部部長也有啦,都很多小組啊可是呢,這個談了幾十年啦,我覺得這不該啦,太複雜啦"},{"start":179.402,"end":179.862,"text":"常常是到最後媒體主幕或媒體記者來討論"},{"start":191.079,"end":202.624,"text":"有時候你搞事有時候你買發布新聞人久了以後稍微都會去講一下但是什麼情況之下要去公開什麼情況之下不能去公開這個就很難去做這樣所以我看每一年都在一直在爭討討論這樣的一個事情"},{"start":215.658,"end":231.869,"text":"我們也知道偵查當中我們為了說不讓這整個偵查發生障礙尤其是讓共犯去串證逃亡或是淹沒證據那所以呢我們都希望說偵查機關我如果偵查機關我也希望這樣來進行不要受到干擾可是在這個無罪推定底下有時候常常我們經過媒體這樣的一個披露尤其社會上矚目的案件就會受到質疑跟批評我舉"},{"start":245.014,"end":252.579,"text":"最近的一個案子啦你說新竹縣長楊文科這個被控涉探這個案件啊為什麼社會這樣會去矚目你週刊一個報導之後社會哗然說 喔 怎麼會這樣你站在當事人的立場來看的話對他來講的話確實啊還在偵辦當中啊那你整個新聞去做一個披露甚至被認為是一個獨家報導我如果其他的站不上的媒體喔我就跟他說你這個違反偵查不公開啦那大家媒體都知道喔他搞不好又不談論這個問題啦"},{"start":275.342,"end":289.613,"text":"所以這個你怎麼樣去拿捏有時候在放消息或者說涉及到公共利益適度讓去國人有知的權利這個拿捏我需要您去讀後我看常常我們最受詬病的放獨家"},{"start":293.334,"end":301.303,"text":"這個最麻煩有時候案件在偵查當中差不多我看事後披露出來好像變實況轉播起來所以我不知道補充還是周局長你們這邊的看法是怎麼樣我是認為這個部分確實要檢討"},{"start":309.577,"end":327.93,"text":"是,謝謝委員的指教這確實是很困難雖然法律明文的規定很清楚但是要執行的時候總是會有一些大家的見解不同我只看你公布的西部規定就那麼多你再叫我來做你的成本我也不知道要怎麼辦你知道嗎有時候這個其實就是一個文化有時候常常變成一個文化"},{"start":336.004,"end":348.511,"text":"每天想要報啊每天要擔小心啊適度去讓他知道不是一件壞事啊可是又涉及到這個無罪推定啊很怕真的是到最後如果是人家連擠出都不擠出的話整個民生全部都毀掉啊"},{"start":349.762,"end":364.106,"text":"我是覺得這個真的要去慎重尤其是這個放毒家常常到最後如果是無罪到最後連起訴都不起訴或者是到進入院方以後被判一個無罪判決確定以後這對董事員的傷害太大所以我要講的是說這個不管是警察機關或者我們司法機關這個放毒家這個心態真的要改變你要不要讓大家的媒體10天在這裡你都給他"},{"start":379.153,"end":379.453,"text":"主席"},{"start":396.018,"end":420.789,"text":"不可挽救的一個傷害,你不來看法如何?是,我同意委員的看法,因為我們這個辦案人員真的是要嚴守我們現在的規定本來其實說很簡單的,只是說偵查不公開這幾年而已,不然我們再頂一關相關的行政規定,比較嚴謹,讓大家有一個遵守的方法跟原則嘛,所以大家看到現在規定越來越複雜了嘛"},{"start":423.03,"end":426.171,"text":"有時候基層人員很麻煩我有時候會為我們警察人員講幾句話你像譬如說同樣的案件我們在講說偵查不公開在上手銬就好了如果是一個十大惡極的十惡不赦的你給他上手銬社會都不會公安"},{"start":450.697,"end":453.338,"text":"都不會說什麼社工這傢伙都會說什麼我也覺得很麻煩所以這個標準到底是要怎麼樣我倒不認為說那個上首靠那個是違反偵查不公開我倒會覺得說那樣的一個執行的方式到底有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題可是這個比例原則又要放在哪是不是要一體適用"},{"start":476.068,"end":479.872,"text":"太愛一體適用可是如果所犯的罪行又不同麻煩了你今天如果開場的怕死人的你給他上手銬你再給他戴一個護具整個面罩給他用的民眾就怕死人的來趕走"},{"start":494.656,"end":499.177,"text":"一看就害怕死人了你又幹嘛保護他的名譽講法又不同了所以確實是很麻煩但是我們也一直在精進那我倒是接下來要去追問的就是說你像譬如說在2009年我們那個中華職棒打假球案的時候這個現在叫你都辦得對那個時候有很多球星"},{"start":519.642,"end":536.975,"text":"因為這個打假球誤入歧途離開這個球場結束他整個職業的一個生涯但是當時在偵查期間我記得很清楚一個叫陳鋒敏那個球員我看周局長你可能會知道他並沒有打假球可是因為他的資訊被公開以後你說要每天報到"},{"start":538.325,"end":559.615,"text":"那很多人他的球迷就對他懷疑、批評、指責到最後法案判決還他清白可是呢民意也受損還在當打之年他就沒有辦法繼續他的球員生涯這些都是法律沒有辦法去還給他的人"},{"start":563.694,"end":576.462,"text":"所以我都要求我們的同仁一定要非常的謹慎那你要處理新聞我們可以用一個公開在特定的場所那就哪一部分可以來說明的"},{"start":577.362,"end":592.38,"text":"可以公開的說明,不要獨厚某一家這是一個原則啦所以我們常常也辦告邀的研討會告邀我們的辦案人員希望能夠遵守規定在處理上要非常的謹慎"},{"start":593.661,"end":613.066,"text":"不能給的就每一家都不要給啦。能給的你每一家都去給的話,大家都又看不為公了。這個本來就是社會大權我知的權利嘛,維護了整個公共利益嘛,這都有可能的嘛。你們揭示了那麼多一個原則裡面,那個有它的一個必要性,可是給獨家這個就很怪啦。"},{"start":615.467,"end":619.029,"text":"可以像檢察官、調查局、法警、書記官、辯護人、辯護人去訪比較不可能嗎?也是有可能啊其實我討論問問你們"},{"start":644.465,"end":645.926,"text":"改進啦 這個真的是要改進啦 我的意思就是說偵查不公開這個部分"},{"start":665.56,"end":665.64,"text":"檢察官"},{"start":689.722,"end":715.783,"text":"甚至於偵辦人員甚至於受調查協助的那些行政人員是正在不公開的主題我簡單問啦像在2020年前年底了這個國人的個資外洩的事件出現在很多網站公開多數全國人民的一個個資包括新聞監護費啦、名啦、戶籍啦、萬族民新聞啦兵役別跟遷入時間這一些這個大家在猜的是從內政部那邊流出去"},{"start":717.805,"end":735.311,"text":"那國人也都很想知道說到底從哪裡出去所以臺灣人權促進會議去年3月就依照政府資訊公開法向內政部去申請能夠公開就是說到底什麼人持有這些附證資料的機關是由哪一些在這方面也說偵查不公開欸?這樣對不對?這樣有違反嗎?我這個這樣很具體啊"},{"start":738.834,"end":740.815,"text":"但是內政部就是偵查主體嗎?"},{"start":763.674,"end":779.144,"text":"所以內政部他也不能洩露啊你如果懷疑說他當然不能洩露啊我現在是要問到底你們是哪些機關持有啊很多機關啊不是只有偵查犯罪的單位而已啊所以你建議說這個人不要講也是不違反偵查不公開"},{"start":780.407,"end":800.72,"text":"不要說他自己來不及去調查啦這個是各自的洩漏本來就是他行政上有那個證人嘛應該要去了解什麼洩漏方法我最後再來追問啦稍微抱歉幾分鐘就好就是說新市警察局州局長部長先請回一下我們在2021年11月跟騷把那個跟騷"},{"start":802.264,"end":819.989,"text":"防治法三讀通過．並在隔年的6月施行就是說將根梢行為明確去做一個入罪．並導入了一個叫書面告誡保護令跟刑事訴訟三道防線副秘書長請回一下那當被害人報案以後警政機關你會開立書面告誡給行為人明確告知已經違法"},{"start":820.709,"end":827.476,"text":"如果兩年內再犯的話 被害人可以向法院民事申請保護令再違反保護令的話 會面臨刑責現在問題來了我看根沙法實行到現在快兩年的時間本席看了從111年6月到今年1月底一共受理的4944件"},{"start":840.45,"end":840.79,"text":"但是我舉個例子"},{"start":861.229,"end":864.73,"text":"古年韓國的直播媒 直播企鵝媒來台灣 全程直播在環島黑衣人去跟蹤 尾隨 未有粉絲去報警 把他抓回去了最後 跟騷法規定 書面告誡 但是呢"},{"start":876.789,"end":899.347,"text":"我們的書面告誡依然保齡依然是在跟他說警方已經介入了,跟行為人說你違法的事實當時在整個根沙發整個立法過程裡面,我們就有很多討論了我以這個例子來看,當他環島差不多半個月甚至一個月左右假設這名男子在接受到書面告誡以後,又再犯"},{"start":900.287,"end":908.177,"text":"啊 申請保護令以後 核發時間一段時間啊就這樣你們要如何去保障被害人的一個安全"},{"start":910.366,"end":932.218,"text":"報告委員這個案子的話因為我們各地都有警察如果說在這個過程裡面然後能持續的跟蹤的話我們各地警察局如果有接到這樣的問題我們都會繼續來保護這個我的意思就是說你這個被害人要去向法院申請保護令以後但去違反的時候高達一半 超過一半"},{"start":933.398,"end":942.224,"text":"這個有一半的機會是違反這個保護令的從這段時間裡面要好好去研討一下因為我們是說三年檢討啦現在也兩年啦未雨綢繆啦"},{"start":946.81,"end":975.411,"text":"我們會再來檢討看看是這個中間保護令發出來以後他還有再犯的情形這個部分因為大部分那個我們警察都還會對這個部分如果有被害人再提出來或我們警察都會主動來關注因為我特別提醒喔這個我在內政委員會裡面提出諮詢以後我也很感謝是你們馬上去召開諮詢會議小組相關研討會那時候我們有做附帶決議喔三年內我們要去檢討現行法令有沒有需要調整的地方好好規劃好不好局長"},{"start":976.032,"end":976.393,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}}}}