{"id":149972,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149972","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aeb23635d16fbf25f25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6be43c8a959977bea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:47:35 - 11:01:52","影片長度":"00:14:17","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":857,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:01:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:47:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1010,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（10時47分）有請薛部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林委員月琴：上個禮拜國人最關注的應該就是剴剴案。這一案我看到地方政府與社福團體互踢皮球的醜態，也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞，導致問題一再發生！我來自兒少團體，這一案的許多沉痾，我已倡議多年，可是悲劇仍不斷發生，難道直到生命消失，我們政府才願意改善嗎？這陣子有人對我說，不要再罵兒盟，或不要批評地方政府！但我是從民間團體走進立法院，站在這裡，我要找出問題，解決問題，不會因為過去長官或者因交情而退讓，這是我捍衛孩子的價值！所以在這邊我要說，兒盟不是第一次，早在108年就有了，所以到底還有多少個剴剴？108年新竹縣的珮珮在保母家離開了，一樣是兒盟安置的孩子。才安置兩個多月，孩子除了感冒，頭部還有不明挫傷。同樣是弱勢家庭，當時兒盟也表示這是合格保母，之前有帶過小孩，最後反而拿捐款的錢來賠償！所以陳情人告訴我，他是弱勢家庭，根本無力對抗一個機構，且當時也同樣說是合格保母。如果有人因為剴剴案辭了兒盟的董事，那從頭到尾都沒有看到他為這麼多年產生的兒少死傷來道歉。我也要問政府，這5年間，從108年直到剴剴案，政府到底有沒有掌握相同的狀況？其實我手上現在還有兩、三案！一樣是安置在保母家，被不當對待後再轉到其他保母家！如果安置持續一直有兒虐的狀況發生，如果地方政府假設不通報，機構又隱匿，那衛福部要怎麼處理？請問一下部長，地方隱瞞，然後機構又隱瞞，請問一下，中央要怎麼處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，所以這個部分就是要有第二層的監督機制，也就是說，因為這種全日托的，他的家屬就沒有辦法去，或者說根本本來就無力去處理了，所以他才需要全日托，而全日托這種情形的話，一定要有個別不同來源的監督角色的人進來，才能夠double check，不然的話，這個很容易就是……"],["林委員月琴：對，我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層，如果地方政府又持續隱瞞，抱歉，衛福部你很難知道，衛福部要怎麼去管控地方政府的責任？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩個都隱瞞的機率其實是不大，但是這個中間有人疏忽，或者是說沒有……"],["林委員月琴：可是我手頭上就有好幾案了，而且都是來自這個出養單位的，所以我請部長再來看看剴剴事件的時間表，到底出了什麼事情？按照我們的規定，直轄縣市和我們運用居托人員家外安置的處理原則，本來就是要依居家托育保母登記管理辦法，找到所謂的訪視輔導良好的保母，我們來看4月17日，聽說這個保母也是兒盟叫他去登記的，他過去本來就沒有想要帶小孩，他在110年7月16號就拿到登記證了，然後111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得登記證，然後11月10號拿到了，可是要訪視輔導良好的話，4月17日收托第一個小孩，可是僅17天兒盟安置的第二個小孩就送進來，他的訪視輔導良好嗎？按照法規，所以要問政府怎麼去督管，不到20天就接第二案，劉姓保母有輔導情形良好嗎？誰允許的？可是法規不允許啊！機構送孩子去安置，有通知居托中心嗎？從頭到尾兩邊都不互通，不管是文山居托中心，甚至兒盟的這個社工完全不互通，各自做各自的，也要再問的是，為什麼一般保母都已經是不預告訪視了，為什麼不預告訪視？至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的，可是畢竟是在保母家，所以沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看，所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視，可是兒盟卻採行預告訪視。整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎？都沒有在問孩子，孩子不是貨物，誰說了算？可是兒權公約明明就很明顯地告訴我們，兒童最佳利益為優先考量，所以也要問的是，部長未來怎麼去管控？本來這個阿嬤的情形就是，他請求的是什麼？他請求的是委託安置，為什麼新北市評估、評估、再不過，他要帶姐姐，然後父母又不見了，這個阿嬤已經負擔過，他本來就沒有要出養，他說他要委託安置，可是為什麼地方政府評估的……所以我想問部長，這到底誰說了算？要不要出養到底是誰說了算？是兒盟說了算？還是地方政府說了算？地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎？我相信新北市不會缺錢，還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個部分就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的，第一點，這些是要做委託安置還是要去做出養，這個事情不能讓媒合機構去決定，這是第一點。"],["林委員月琴：所以也要問部長，未來如何督管地方政府？否則阿嬤本來就只是缺錢，他可以照顧，他甚至委託安置就OK的，可是卻強行說要來出養，就送到所謂出養前的安置。再來，第二個，在出養等待期，為什麼不繼續安置原照顧的周姓保母？他非常符合法規喔！依照你們的法規，他是符合的，新北市如果要去做這樣決定的時候，誰又可以去管控？如果大家都不管控的時候，最後最倒楣的就是孩子。我們2014年就簽訂兒權公約國內法化的時候，怎麼會大家都沒有看到？不管是機構，不管是地方政府，從頭到尾到底看到孩子的權益了嗎？等待期的安置條文在哪裡？這麼多年了，沒有看到。為什麼兒盟講說它跟劉姓保母簽約？他也不符合這些規定啊！為什麼沒有更好的評估？而且對他的評估是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這也是我們這次必須要去檢討的對象，也就是說，當這個個案到底應該由誰來決定安置的方法跟由誰來做安置，以後我們就是都走委託安置這個流程，而不是由媒合機構去做決定。"],["林委員月琴：我希望中央真的要針對地方政府沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好，對於機構沒做好的，否則珮珮死了，然後再來一個剴剴死，我們有一天還要站在質詢臺上提到又有哪個孩子死亡嗎？又因為出養前的安置嗎？所以誰應該主動聯絡，我也不知道，而劉姓保母跟居托中心，居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話，沒有接過兒盟的電話，各做各的，所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題，所以不知道為什麼……請定出全部都採行不預告訪視才是符合的，所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼，請政策把它補起來。","首先要修改出養等待期的法源依據，不是誰說了算，要有一個評估，而且如果要委託安置就應該讓他委託安置，因為我們還是認為親權是重要的，他跟他父母事實上是……兒權公約也講說，不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的，怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做，讓他硬生生的要去出養？所以請把這個處理好來，甚至是等待期，我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據，所以等待期從108年……我們要還這兩個孩子的命一個回應，讓他的命有所代價，不是任由機構、任由地方政府這樣做，而且中間……我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐，這些孩子的傷要跟誰講？","第二個就是應該強制地方政府建立訪視輔導狀況良好的名單，到底這些名單怎麼來的？為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最瞭解保母的居托中心？所以居托中心很多時候都是接到……小孩原來安置在我這個保母家，可是對於這個保母，我覺得他不太好，因為有些保母小事不斷、大事不犯，甚至有些保母有超收，問題是你抓不到他，居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保母，可是我們卻任由出養機構找了這些保母，所以一而再，再而三的發生事情，所以是不是把這樣的名單建置好，讓孩子到一個有愛心且能夠去照顧他們的地方，畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣，事實上，他是365天、24小時待在一個保母家，如果沒有另外一個監管機制的話，我覺得等於是把孩子推入另外一個火坑。","第三，本來就有跨區處理原則，所以部長，我要問的是，你怎麼讓地方不踢皮球？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上，以這個案子來講，可能也不是說踢皮球，是大家都沒有做，兩個縣市都有沒有做的地方，比方說，第一個，新北市這邊對於出養的決定，它沒有去處理……"],["林委員月琴：所以我就看到新北市跟臺北市也好，兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽啊！可是對於孩子，到底誰要來處理這些事情呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這就是我們這次檢討的結果，我們發現了問題，我們也希望未來地方政府負起該負的責任，這不是說中央在推託，而是如果問題是出在地方，地方必須要能夠改善，中央會來督導。"],["林委員月琴：是不是清楚的……因為9月1號他就在劉姓保母家居住，就在臺北市了，法規已經很清楚了，所以也請你督促未來各級機關不要再互相推諉，該怎麼做就怎麼做。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，在選擇保母的部分，剛剛委員有提到，為什麼要轉換保母？這就是一個問題，第二個，如果要轉換保母，為什麼不能在當地去找？新北市也不會說完全沒有保母，為什麼一定要跑到臺北市？結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去，這都是要檢討的。"],["林委員月琴：好，衛福部本來就有訂定原則，又有發函，縣市政府為什麼不督管？未來是不是可以訂定相關辦法、罰則，否則很明確的5月31日就行文各地方政府，他們不做，那中央到底要怎麼做？還是一樣，沒有辦法選擇合格的保母，沒有辦法進行好的防治來防堵下一個生命受損！所以請部長針對各類處理原則提高法律強制度，在你們擬定之後送進來，希望不要再有下一個「剴剴」。應該講從「佩佩」走到「剴剴」，中間還有受傷的孩子，請儘速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據，還有改善兒童出養前，也就是等待期的照顧，修訂家外安置處理原則，位階不要這麼低，這樣根本處理不了事情，如果我們號稱兒童權利公約已經國內法化，誓言要保護孩子，怎麼會坐視這些事情不斷發生？尤其一個安置機構的董事說他3月11日才看到報告、才知道這些事情，而1月9日保母已經是聲押的狀態，如果機構不能管控的話，你們能夠繼續把孩子委託在那邊嗎？我們孩子的權益又在哪裡？再來是訂定居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構共案的準則，還有明定家外兒童虐待處遇的主責機構。這個事件從去年12月發生，剛剛部長也說明到現在機構報告都還沒有交過來，過去一直說要捍衛孩子權益的單位，它過去的董事在質詢時也坐在這邊，可是竟然沒有捍衛我們孩子的權益，所以請儘速把報告送上來，以上。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林月琴委員的質詢。","接下來我們請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"149972","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149972","tool":"pyannote","id":"149972-pyannote"},"job_id":"4sPjIS4f0VZfMTHu","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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{\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 64.406, \"end\": 64.566, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 64.566, \"end\": 64.726, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 64.726, \"end\": 64.926, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 64.926, \"end\": 65.106, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 65.106, \"end\": 65.246, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 65.246, \"end\": 65.266, \"score\": 0.019}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}]}, {\"start\": 65.936, \"end\": 86.527, \"text\": \"這是我捍衛孩子的價值。所以在這邊,兒夢不是第一次。這事實上是在108年,所以我們到底還有多少個愷愷?108年新竹縣的胚胚在保母家離開了一樣是兒夢安置的孩子。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 65.936, \"end\": 66.136, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 66.136, \"end\": 66.496, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"捍\", \"start\": 66.496, \"end\": 66.917, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"孩\", \"start\": 66.917, \"end\": 67.137, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 67.137, \"end\": 67.257, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"童\", \"start\": 830.347, \"end\": 830.527, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"虐\", \"start\": 830.527, \"end\": 830.727, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 830.727, \"end\": 831.387, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"遇\", \"start\": 831.387, \"end\": 831.548, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 831.548, \"end\": 831.568, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 832.168, \"end\": 832.188, \"score\": 0.015}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"．\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,005 --> 00:00:35,236\n有請薛部長來請部長部長上個禮拜我覺得國人應該最關注的就是這個凱凱那這一案我也看到地方政府跟社福團體互踢皮球的醜態也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞所以導致問題一再發生我自己來自兒少團體\n\n2\n00:00:36,361 --> 00:01:05,266\n這一案許多陳柯我已倡議多年可是悲劇不斷的發生直到生命消失我們政府才願意改善嗎?這陣子有人一直在對我某種程度在講說不要再去罵耳蒙或者是不要批評地方政府但我的身份從民間團體走進立法院站在這裡我要找出問題解決問題不會因為過去長官或者是交情而退讓\n\n3\n00:01:05,936 --> 00:01:26,527\n這是我捍衛孩子的價值。所以在這邊,兒夢不是第一次。這事實上是在108年,所以我們到底還有多少個愷愷?108年新竹縣的胚胚在保母家離開了一樣是兒夢安置的孩子。\n\n4\n00:01:27,711 --> 00:01:27,731\n陳秦嵐\n\n5\n00:01:51,421 --> 00:02:15,710\n當時同樣也是講說是合格保姆那如果有人因為凱凱案磁熱而蒙的董事那從頭到尾都沒有看到這麼多年產生的兒少的死傷來做道歉我要問政府這5年間從108年直到凱凱案到底政府有沒有掌握相同的狀況至少我手頭上現在還有兩三案事實上是在\n\n6\n00:02:16,190 --> 00:02:38,695\n一樣安置在保姆家,不當對待之後再轉到其他保姆家的。如果安置持續一直有額逆的狀況發生,如果地方政府假設不通報,那機構又隱匿,那衛福部要怎麼處理?請問一下部長,衛福部地方隱瞞然後機構又隱瞞,那請問一下中央要怎麼處理?\n\n7\n00:02:39,842 --> 00:02:47,149\n跟委員報告,所以這部分的話就是要有第二層的監督的機制,也就是說\n\n8\n00:02:48,188 --> 00:03:12,905\n因為這種全日拖的他家屬就沒有辦法去或者說根本本來就無力去處理了所以他才需要全日拖那全日拖的這種情形的話一定要有個別不同來源的這個監督的角色的人進來才能夠doublecheck不然的話這很容易就是我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層如果\n\n9\n00:03:16,943 --> 00:03:44,936\n地方政府又持續隱瞞衛福部抱歉你很難知道這兩個都隱瞞其實是機率是不大但是這一個中間有人疏忽那或者是說可是我手頭上就有好幾案了而且都是來自這個出洋單位的所以我請部長再來看看凱凱的事件的時間表到底出了什麼事情按照我們的規定直轄縣市\n\n10\n00:03:46,550 --> 00:03:46,950\n林月琴議員\n\n11\n00:04:16,432 --> 00:04:41,349\n9月去那個111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得那個登記證然後11月10號拿到了可是要訪視輔導良好的話4月17收拖第一個小孩第二個小孩兒童安置的就送進來只有17天他訪視輔導良好嗎按照法規所以要問這政府怎麼去督管不到20天就接第二案\n\n12\n00:04:42,790 --> 00:05:03,492\n劉姓保母有輔導情形良好嗎?誰允許的?可是法規不允許啊。那在機構送孩子去安置,有通知居托中心嗎?從頭到尾,兩邊都不互通。不管是文山居托中心,甚至兒蒙的這個社工,完全不互通。各自做各自的。\n\n13\n00:05:05,270 --> 00:05:26,189\n也要再問的是為什麼一般孩子保母呢都已經是預告不預告訪視了為什麼不預告訪視至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的可是畢竟是在保母家所以呢沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視可是兒母卻採行預告訪視\n\n14\n00:05:31,718 --> 00:05:54,175\n整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎都沒有在問孩子孩子不是貨物欸誰說了算可是兒權公約明明就很明顯的告訴我們兒童最佳利益為優先考量所以就也要問的是部長未來怎麼去管控本來這個阿嬤的情形就是他請求的什麼他請求的是委託安置\n\n15\n00:05:54,835 --> 00:06:20,244\n那為什麼新北市評估再不過他要帶姊姊然後父母又不見了這個阿嬤已經負擔過他本來就沒有要出養他說他要委託安置可是為什麼地方政府評估的所以我想問部長說這到底誰說了算要不要出養到底是誰說了算是額蒙說了算還是地方政府說了算地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎我相信新北市不會缺錢還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎\n\n16\n00:06:23,638 --> 00:06:36,173\n所以這一個部分的話就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的第一點這些是要做委託安置還是說要去做出養這個事情不能讓這個媒合機構去決定\n\n17\n00:06:40,732 --> 00:06:41,693\n在出養等待期\n\n18\n00:06:58,888 --> 00:07:00,629\n從頭到尾看到孩子的權益了嗎?等待期的安置條文在哪裡?\n\n19\n00:07:28,443 --> 00:07:37,452\n這麼多年了沒有看到跟流行保姆為什麼額蒙講說他跟流行保姆簽約他也不符合這些規定啊那為什麼沒有更好的評估而且對他評估是什麼\n\n20\n00:07:38,370 --> 00:07:39,971\n我希望中央真的要針對地方政府\n\n21\n00:08:06,587 --> 00:08:34,349\n沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好來對於機構沒做好的否則佩佩死了然後再來一個凱凱死那我們有一天還要在那質詢台上又哪一個孩子死亡嗎又因為出養前安置嗎所以誰應該主動聯絡我也不知道就是劉憲保姆跟周信跟居托中心居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話那沒有經過兒盟的電話那各做各的所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題\n\n22\n00:08:36,531 --> 00:08:51,431\n所以不知道為什麼請訂出來全部都採行不預告反是才是符合的所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼請政策把它補起來所以首先要修改出養等待期的法源依據\n\n23\n00:08:52,537 --> 00:09:07,168\n不是誰說了算,要有一個評估而且如果要委託安置,就應該讓他委託安置因為我們還是認為侵權是重要的他跟他父母事實上是,俊光也講說不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的\n\n24\n00:09:07,788 --> 00:09:31,297\n那怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做讓他硬生生的要去要去出洋所以請把這個處理好來甚至等待期我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據所以等待期從108年我們還這兩個孩子的命啊一個回應啊讓他的命有所代價不是任由機構任由地方政府這樣做而且中間\n\n25\n00:09:32,117 --> 00:09:38,420\n我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐這些孩子傷要跟誰講所以第二個就是應該強制地方政府來建立防治狀況、輔導良好到底這些名單怎麼來為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最了解保母的居托中心\n\n26\n00:09:56,297 --> 00:10:20,664\n所以居托中心很多時候都是接到小孩原來安置在我這個保姆家可是我對這個保姆覺得他不太好因為有些保姆小事不斷大事不犯甚至有些保姆因為有超收可能問題是你抓不到他可是居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保姆可是我們確認有出養機構找了這些保姆\n\n27\n00:10:21,892 --> 00:10:47,808\n一而再再而三的發生事情所以是不是把這樣子的一個名單建制好讓孩子到一個有愛心能夠去照顧他們畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣他事實上是365天24小時待在一個保母家沒有另外一個監管機制的話我覺得等於是把孩子推入到另外一個火坑去第三本來就有跨區處理原則所以\n\n28\n00:10:50,134 --> 00:11:01,181\n事實上這一個案子來講的話可能也不是說踢皮球是大家都沒有做\n\n29\n00:11:02,708 --> 00:11:21,757\n所以我就看到新北市跟台北市也好在這個兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽啊可是對孩子到底誰要來處理這些事情呢?\n\n30\n00:11:22,943 --> 00:11:51,370\n所以這就是我們這一次檢討的結果我們發現的問題那我們也希望說未來在這個地方政府的部分負起該負的責任這不是說中央在推脫本來就是如果問題是出在地方地方必須要能夠改善那中央會來督導是不是清楚的因為9月1號他就在劉姓保姆家居住就在台北市了所以\n\n31\n00:12:01,618 --> 00:12:21,765\n在選擇保母的部分剛剛委員有提到為什麼要轉換保母這就是一個問題第二個就是說如果要轉換保母為什麼不能在當地去找新北市也不會說完全沒有保母為什麼一定要跑到台北市結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去這個都是要檢討的\n\n32\n00:12:22,865 --> 00:12:23,166\n所以這也請部長\n\n33\n00:12:47,168 --> 00:13:01,010\n整對各類處理原則要提高法律的強制度所以請你們擬定之後送進來所以不要再有一個下一個凱凱應該講齁從佩佩走到凱凱中間還有受傷的孩子\n\n34\n00:13:02,719 --> 00:13:24,544\n請儘速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據,還有改善兒童出養前的照顧,也就是等待期可否修訂家外安置的處理原則,不要位階這麼低,處理不了事情。如果我們號稱事實上是兒童權利公約國內法化,說誓言要保護孩子的人,怎麼會去坐任這些事情不斷的發生?\n\n35\n00:13:26,365 --> 00:13:51,568\n尤其一個安置機構的董事說他們他3月11號才看到報告才知道這些事情1月9號保姆已經是生壓的狀態如果機構不能管控的話你們能夠繼續孩子委託在那邊嗎那我們的孩子的權益又是在在哪邊那再來就是電電居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構貢案的準則民定家外兒童虐待處遇的\n\n36\n00:13:52,168 --> 00:13:52,188\n主責機構．\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9005\t35236\t有請薛部長來請部長部長上個禮拜我覺得國人應該最關注的就是這個凱凱那這一案我也看到地方政府跟社福團體互踢皮球的醜態也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞所以導致問題一再發生我自己來自兒少團體\n36361\t65266\t這一案許多陳柯我已倡議多年可是悲劇不斷的發生直到生命消失我們政府才願意改善嗎?這陣子有人一直在對我某種程度在講說不要再去罵耳蒙或者是不要批評地方政府但我的身份從民間團體走進立法院站在這裡我要找出問題解決問題不會因為過去長官或者是交情而退讓\n65936\t86527\t這是我捍衛孩子的價值。所以在這邊,兒夢不是第一次。這事實上是在108年,所以我們到底還有多少個愷愷?108年新竹縣的胚胚在保母家離開了一樣是兒夢安置的孩子。\n87711\t87731\t陳秦嵐\n111421\t135710\t當時同樣也是講說是合格保姆那如果有人因為凱凱案磁熱而蒙的董事那從頭到尾都沒有看到這麼多年產生的兒少的死傷來做道歉我要問政府這5年間從108年直到凱凱案到底政府有沒有掌握相同的狀況至少我手頭上現在還有兩三案事實上是在\n136190\t158695\t一樣安置在保姆家,不當對待之後再轉到其他保姆家的。如果安置持續一直有額逆的狀況發生,如果地方政府假設不通報,那機構又隱匿,那衛福部要怎麼處理?請問一下部長,衛福部地方隱瞞然後機構又隱瞞,那請問一下中央要怎麼處理?\n159842\t167149\t跟委員報告,所以這部分的話就是要有第二層的監督的機制,也就是說\n168188\t192905\t因為這種全日拖的他家屬就沒有辦法去或者說根本本來就無力去處理了所以他才需要全日拖那全日拖的這種情形的話一定要有個別不同來源的這個監督的角色的人進來才能夠double check不然的話這很容易就是我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層如果\n196943\t224936\t地方政府又持續隱瞞衛福部抱歉你很難知道這兩個都隱瞞其實是機率是不大但是這一個中間有人疏忽那或者是說可是我手頭上就有好幾案了而且都是來自這個出洋單位的所以我請部長再來看看凱凱的事件的時間表到底出了什麼事情按照我們的規定直轄縣市\n226550\t226950\t林月琴議員\n256432\t281349\t9月去那個111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得那個登記證然後11月10號拿到了可是要訪視輔導良好的話4月17收拖第一個小孩第二個小孩兒童安置的就送進來只有17天他訪視輔導良好嗎按照法規所以要問這政府怎麼去督管不到20天就接第二案\n282790\t303492\t劉姓保母有輔導情形良好嗎?誰允許的?可是法規不允許啊。那在機構送孩子去安置,有通知居托中心嗎?從頭到尾,兩邊都不互通。不管是文山居托中心,甚至兒蒙的這個社工,完全不互通。各自做各自的。\n305270\t326189\t也要再問的是為什麼一般孩子保母呢都已經是預告不預告訪視了為什麼不預告訪視至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的可是畢竟是在保母家所以呢沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視可是兒母卻採行預告訪視\n331718\t354175\t整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎都沒有在問孩子孩子不是貨物欸誰說了算可是兒權公約明明就很明顯的告訴我們兒童最佳利益為優先考量所以就也要問的是部長未來怎麼去管控本來這個阿嬤的情形就是他請求的什麼他請求的是委託安置\n354835\t380244\t那為什麼新北市評估再不過他要帶姊姊然後父母又不見了這個阿嬤已經負擔過他本來就沒有要出養他說他要委託安置可是為什麼地方政府評估的所以我想問部長說這到底誰說了算要不要出養到底是誰說了算是額蒙說了算還是地方政府說了算地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎我相信新北市不會缺錢還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎\n383638\t396173\t所以這一個部分的話就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的第一點這些是要做委託安置還是說要去做出養這個事情不能讓這個媒合機構去決定\n400732\t401693\t在出養等待期\n418888\t420629\t從頭到尾看到孩子的權益了嗎?等待期的安置條文在哪裡?\n448443\t457452\t這麼多年了沒有看到跟流行保姆為什麼額蒙講說他跟流行保姆簽約他也不符合這些規定啊那為什麼沒有更好的評估而且對他評估是什麼\n458370\t459971\t我希望中央真的要針對地方政府\n486587\t514349\t沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好來對於機構沒做好的否則佩佩死了然後再來一個凱凱死那我們有一天還要在那質詢台上又哪一個孩子死亡嗎又因為出養前安置嗎所以誰應該主動聯絡我也不知道就是劉憲保姆跟周信跟居托中心居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話那沒有經過兒盟的電話那各做各的所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題\n516531\t531431\t所以不知道為什麼請訂出來全部都採行不預告反是才是符合的所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼請政策把它補起來所以首先要修改出養等待期的法源依據\n532537\t547168\t不是誰說了算,要有一個評估而且如果要委託安置,就應該讓他委託安置因為我們還是認為侵權是重要的他跟他父母事實上是,俊光也講說不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的\n547788\t571297\t那怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做讓他硬生生的要去要去出洋所以請把這個處理好來甚至等待期我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據所以等待期從108年我們還這兩個孩子的命啊一個回應啊讓他的命有所代價不是任由機構任由地方政府這樣做而且中間\n572117\t578420\t我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐這些孩子傷要跟誰講所以第二個就是應該強制地方政府來建立防治狀況、輔導良好到底這些名單怎麼來為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最了解保母的居托中心\n596297\t620664\t所以居托中心很多時候都是接到小孩原來安置在我這個保姆家可是我對這個保姆覺得他不太好因為有些保姆小事不斷大事不犯甚至有些保姆因為有超收可能問題是你抓不到他可是居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保姆可是我們確認有出養機構找了這些保姆\n621892\t647808\t一而再再而三的發生事情所以是不是把這樣子的一個名單建制好讓孩子到一個有愛心能夠去照顧他們畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣他事實上是365天24小時待在一個保母家沒有另外一個監管機制的話我覺得等於是把孩子推入到另外一個火坑去第三本來就有跨區處理原則所以\n650134\t661181\t事實上這一個案子來講的話可能也不是說踢皮球是大家都沒有做\n662708\t681757\t所以我就看到新北市跟台北市也好在這個兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽啊可是對孩子到底誰要來處理這些事情呢?\n682943\t711370\t所以這就是我們這一次檢討的結果我們發現的問題那我們也希望說未來在這個地方政府的部分負起該負的責任這不是說中央在推脫本來就是如果問題是出在地方地方必須要能夠改善那中央會來督導是不是清楚的因為9月1號他就在劉姓保姆家居住就在台北市了所以\n711749\t721476\t對﹖\n721618\t741765\t在選擇保母的部分剛剛委員有提到為什麼要轉換保母這就是一個問題第二個就是說如果要轉換保母為什麼不能在當地去找新北市也不會說完全沒有保母為什麼一定要跑到台北市結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去這個都是要檢討的\n742865\t743166\t所以這也請部長\n767168\t781010\t整對各類處理原則要提高法律的強制度所以請你們擬定之後送進來所以不要再有一個下一個凱凱應該講齁從佩佩走到凱凱中間還有受傷的孩子\n782719\t804544\t請儘速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據,還有改善兒童出養前的照顧,也就是等待期可否修訂家外安置的處理原則,不要位階這麼低,處理不了事情。如果我們號稱事實上是兒童權利公約國內法化,說誓言要保護孩子的人,怎麼會去坐任這些事情不斷的發生?\n806365\t831568\t尤其一個安置機構的董事說他們他3月11號才看到報告才知道這些事情1月9號保姆已經是生壓的狀態如果機構不能管控的話你們能夠繼續孩子委託在那邊嗎那我們的孩子的權益又是在在哪邊那再來就是電電居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構貢案的準則民定家外兒童虐待處遇的\n832168\t832188\t主責機構．\n","txt":"有請薛部長來請部長部長上個禮拜我覺得國人應該最關注的就是這個凱凱那這一案我也看到地方政府跟社福團體互踢皮球的醜態也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞所以導致問題一再發生我自己來自兒少團體\n這一案許多陳柯我已倡議多年可是悲劇不斷的發生直到生命消失我們政府才願意改善嗎?這陣子有人一直在對我某種程度在講說不要再去罵耳蒙或者是不要批評地方政府但我的身份從民間團體走進立法院站在這裡我要找出問題解決問題不會因為過去長官或者是交情而退讓\n這是我捍衛孩子的價值。所以在這邊,兒夢不是第一次。這事實上是在108年,所以我們到底還有多少個愷愷?108年新竹縣的胚胚在保母家離開了一樣是兒夢安置的孩子。\n陳秦嵐\n當時同樣也是講說是合格保姆那如果有人因為凱凱案磁熱而蒙的董事那從頭到尾都沒有看到這麼多年產生的兒少的死傷來做道歉我要問政府這5年間從108年直到凱凱案到底政府有沒有掌握相同的狀況至少我手頭上現在還有兩三案事實上是在\n一樣安置在保姆家,不當對待之後再轉到其他保姆家的。如果安置持續一直有額逆的狀況發生,如果地方政府假設不通報,那機構又隱匿,那衛福部要怎麼處理?請問一下部長,衛福部地方隱瞞然後機構又隱瞞,那請問一下中央要怎麼處理?\n跟委員報告,所以這部分的話就是要有第二層的監督的機制,也就是說\n因為這種全日拖的他家屬就沒有辦法去或者說根本本來就無力去處理了所以他才需要全日拖那全日拖的這種情形的話一定要有個別不同來源的這個監督的角色的人進來才能夠double check不然的話這很容易就是我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層如果\n地方政府又持續隱瞞衛福部抱歉你很難知道這兩個都隱瞞其實是機率是不大但是這一個中間有人疏忽那或者是說可是我手頭上就有好幾案了而且都是來自這個出洋單位的所以我請部長再來看看凱凱的事件的時間表到底出了什麼事情按照我們的規定直轄縣市\n林月琴議員\n9月去那個111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得那個登記證然後11月10號拿到了可是要訪視輔導良好的話4月17收拖第一個小孩第二個小孩兒童安置的就送進來只有17天他訪視輔導良好嗎按照法規所以要問這政府怎麼去督管不到20天就接第二案\n劉姓保母有輔導情形良好嗎?誰允許的?可是法規不允許啊。那在機構送孩子去安置,有通知居托中心嗎?從頭到尾,兩邊都不互通。不管是文山居托中心,甚至兒蒙的這個社工,完全不互通。各自做各自的。\n也要再問的是為什麼一般孩子保母呢都已經是預告不預告訪視了為什麼不預告訪視至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的可是畢竟是在保母家所以呢沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視可是兒母卻採行預告訪視\n整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎都沒有在問孩子孩子不是貨物欸誰說了算可是兒權公約明明就很明顯的告訴我們兒童最佳利益為優先考量所以就也要問的是部長未來怎麼去管控本來這個阿嬤的情形就是他請求的什麼他請求的是委託安置\n那為什麼新北市評估再不過他要帶姊姊然後父母又不見了這個阿嬤已經負擔過他本來就沒有要出養他說他要委託安置可是為什麼地方政府評估的所以我想問部長說這到底誰說了算要不要出養到底是誰說了算是額蒙說了算還是地方政府說了算地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎我相信新北市不會缺錢還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎\n所以這一個部分的話就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的第一點這些是要做委託安置還是說要去做出養這個事情不能讓這個媒合機構去決定\n在出養等待期\n從頭到尾看到孩子的權益了嗎?等待期的安置條文在哪裡?\n這麼多年了沒有看到跟流行保姆為什麼額蒙講說他跟流行保姆簽約他也不符合這些規定啊那為什麼沒有更好的評估而且對他評估是什麼\n我希望中央真的要針對地方政府\n沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好來對於機構沒做好的否則佩佩死了然後再來一個凱凱死那我們有一天還要在那質詢台上又哪一個孩子死亡嗎又因為出養前安置嗎所以誰應該主動聯絡我也不知道就是劉憲保姆跟周信跟居托中心居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話那沒有經過兒盟的電話那各做各的所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題\n所以不知道為什麼請訂出來全部都採行不預告反是才是符合的所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼請政策把它補起來所以首先要修改出養等待期的法源依據\n不是誰說了算,要有一個評估而且如果要委託安置,就應該讓他委託安置因為我們還是認為侵權是重要的他跟他父母事實上是,俊光也講說不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的\n那怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做讓他硬生生的要去要去出洋所以請把這個處理好來甚至等待期我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據所以等待期從108年我們還這兩個孩子的命啊一個回應啊讓他的命有所代價不是任由機構任由地方政府這樣做而且中間\n我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐這些孩子傷要跟誰講所以第二個就是應該強制地方政府來建立防治狀況、輔導良好到底這些名單怎麼來為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最了解保母的居托中心\n所以居托中心很多時候都是接到小孩原來安置在我這個保姆家可是我對這個保姆覺得他不太好因為有些保姆小事不斷大事不犯甚至有些保姆因為有超收可能問題是你抓不到他可是居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保姆可是我們確認有出養機構找了這些保姆\n一而再再而三的發生事情所以是不是把這樣子的一個名單建制好讓孩子到一個有愛心能夠去照顧他們畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣他事實上是365天24小時待在一個保母家沒有另外一個監管機制的話我覺得等於是把孩子推入到另外一個火坑去第三本來就有跨區處理原則所以\n事實上這一個案子來講的話可能也不是說踢皮球是大家都沒有做\n所以我就看到新北市跟台北市也好在這個兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽啊可是對孩子到底誰要來處理這些事情呢?\n所以這就是我們這一次檢討的結果我們發現的問題那我們也希望說未來在這個地方政府的部分負起該負的責任這不是說中央在推脫本來就是如果問題是出在地方地方必須要能夠改善那中央會來督導是不是清楚的因為9月1號他就在劉姓保姆家居住就在台北市了所以\n對﹖\n在選擇保母的部分剛剛委員有提到為什麼要轉換保母這就是一個問題第二個就是說如果要轉換保母為什麼不能在當地去找新北市也不會說完全沒有保母為什麼一定要跑到台北市結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去這個都是要檢討的\n所以這也請部長\n整對各類處理原則要提高法律的強制度所以請你們擬定之後送進來所以不要再有一個下一個凱凱應該講齁從佩佩走到凱凱中間還有受傷的孩子\n請儘速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據,還有改善兒童出養前的照顧,也就是等待期可否修訂家外安置的處理原則,不要位階這麼低,處理不了事情。如果我們號稱事實上是兒童權利公約國內法化,說誓言要保護孩子的人,怎麼會去坐任這些事情不斷的發生?\n尤其一個安置機構的董事說他們他3月11號才看到報告才知道這些事情1月9號保姆已經是生壓的狀態如果機構不能管控的話你們能夠繼續孩子委託在那邊嗎那我們的孩子的權益又是在在哪邊那再來就是電電居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構貢案的準則民定家外兒童虐待處遇的\n主責機構．\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.005 --> 00:35.236\n有請薛部長來請部長部長上個禮拜我覺得國人應該最關注的就是這個凱凱那這一案我也看到地方政府跟社福團體互踢皮球的醜態也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞所以導致問題一再發生我自己來自兒少團體\n\n00:36.361 --> 01:05.266\n這一案許多陳柯我已倡議多年可是悲劇不斷的發生直到生命消失我們政府才願意改善嗎?這陣子有人一直在對我某種程度在講說不要再去罵耳蒙或者是不要批評地方政府但我的身份從民間團體走進立法院站在這裡我要找出問題解決問題不會因為過去長官或者是交情而退讓\n\n01:05.936 --> 01:26.527\n這是我捍衛孩子的價值。所以在這邊,兒夢不是第一次。這事實上是在108年,所以我們到底還有多少個愷愷?108年新竹縣的胚胚在保母家離開了一樣是兒夢安置的孩子。\n\n01:27.711 --> 01:27.731\n陳秦嵐\n\n01:51.421 --> 02:15.710\n當時同樣也是講說是合格保姆那如果有人因為凱凱案磁熱而蒙的董事那從頭到尾都沒有看到這麼多年產生的兒少的死傷來做道歉我要問政府這5年間從108年直到凱凱案到底政府有沒有掌握相同的狀況至少我手頭上現在還有兩三案事實上是在\n\n02:16.190 --> 02:38.695\n一樣安置在保姆家,不當對待之後再轉到其他保姆家的。如果安置持續一直有額逆的狀況發生,如果地方政府假設不通報,那機構又隱匿,那衛福部要怎麼處理?請問一下部長,衛福部地方隱瞞然後機構又隱瞞,那請問一下中央要怎麼處理?\n\n02:39.842 --> 02:47.149\n跟委員報告,所以這部分的話就是要有第二層的監督的機制,也就是說\n\n02:48.188 --> 03:12.905\n因為這種全日拖的他家屬就沒有辦法去或者說根本本來就無力去處理了所以他才需要全日拖那全日拖的這種情形的話一定要有個別不同來源的這個監督的角色的人進來才能夠doublecheck不然的話這很容易就是我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層如果\n\n03:16.943 --> 03:44.936\n地方政府又持續隱瞞衛福部抱歉你很難知道這兩個都隱瞞其實是機率是不大但是這一個中間有人疏忽那或者是說可是我手頭上就有好幾案了而且都是來自這個出洋單位的所以我請部長再來看看凱凱的事件的時間表到底出了什麼事情按照我們的規定直轄縣市\n\n03:46.550 --> 03:46.950\n林月琴議員\n\n04:16.432 --> 04:41.349\n9月去那個111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得那個登記證然後11月10號拿到了可是要訪視輔導良好的話4月17收拖第一個小孩第二個小孩兒童安置的就送進來只有17天他訪視輔導良好嗎按照法規所以要問這政府怎麼去督管不到20天就接第二案\n\n04:42.790 --> 05:03.492\n劉姓保母有輔導情形良好嗎?誰允許的?可是法規不允許啊。那在機構送孩子去安置,有通知居托中心嗎?從頭到尾,兩邊都不互通。不管是文山居托中心,甚至兒蒙的這個社工,完全不互通。各自做各自的。\n\n05:05.270 --> 05:26.189\n也要再問的是為什麼一般孩子保母呢都已經是預告不預告訪視了為什麼不預告訪視至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的可是畢竟是在保母家所以呢沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視可是兒母卻採行預告訪視\n\n05:31.718 --> 05:54.175\n整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎都沒有在問孩子孩子不是貨物欸誰說了算可是兒權公約明明就很明顯的告訴我們兒童最佳利益為優先考量所以就也要問的是部長未來怎麼去管控本來這個阿嬤的情形就是他請求的什麼他請求的是委託安置\n\n05:54.835 --> 06:20.244\n那為什麼新北市評估再不過他要帶姊姊然後父母又不見了這個阿嬤已經負擔過他本來就沒有要出養他說他要委託安置可是為什麼地方政府評估的所以我想問部長說這到底誰說了算要不要出養到底是誰說了算是額蒙說了算還是地方政府說了算地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎我相信新北市不會缺錢還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎\n\n06:23.638 --> 06:36.173\n所以這一個部分的話就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的第一點這些是要做委託安置還是說要去做出養這個事情不能讓這個媒合機構去決定\n\n06:40.732 --> 06:41.693\n在出養等待期\n\n06:58.888 --> 07:00.629\n從頭到尾看到孩子的權益了嗎?等待期的安置條文在哪裡?\n\n07:28.443 --> 07:37.452\n這麼多年了沒有看到跟流行保姆為什麼額蒙講說他跟流行保姆簽約他也不符合這些規定啊那為什麼沒有更好的評估而且對他評估是什麼\n\n07:38.370 --> 07:39.971\n我希望中央真的要針對地方政府\n\n08:06.587 --> 08:34.349\n沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好來對於機構沒做好的否則佩佩死了然後再來一個凱凱死那我們有一天還要在那質詢台上又哪一個孩子死亡嗎又因為出養前安置嗎所以誰應該主動聯絡我也不知道就是劉憲保姆跟周信跟居托中心居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話那沒有經過兒盟的電話那各做各的所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題\n\n08:36.531 --> 08:51.431\n所以不知道為什麼請訂出來全部都採行不預告反是才是符合的所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼請政策把它補起來所以首先要修改出養等待期的法源依據\n\n08:52.537 --> 09:07.168\n不是誰說了算,要有一個評估而且如果要委託安置,就應該讓他委託安置因為我們還是認為侵權是重要的他跟他父母事實上是,俊光也講說不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的\n\n09:07.788 --> 09:31.297\n那怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做讓他硬生生的要去要去出洋所以請把這個處理好來甚至等待期我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據所以等待期從108年我們還這兩個孩子的命啊一個回應啊讓他的命有所代價不是任由機構任由地方政府這樣做而且中間\n\n09:32.117 --> 09:38.420\n我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐這些孩子傷要跟誰講所以第二個就是應該強制地方政府來建立防治狀況、輔導良好到底這些名單怎麼來為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最了解保母的居托中心\n\n09:56.297 --> 10:20.664\n所以居托中心很多時候都是接到小孩原來安置在我這個保姆家可是我對這個保姆覺得他不太好因為有些保姆小事不斷大事不犯甚至有些保姆因為有超收可能問題是你抓不到他可是居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保姆可是我們確認有出養機構找了這些保姆\n\n10:21.892 --> 10:47.808\n一而再再而三的發生事情所以是不是把這樣子的一個名單建制好讓孩子到一個有愛心能夠去照顧他們畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣他事實上是365天24小時待在一個保母家沒有另外一個監管機制的話我覺得等於是把孩子推入到另外一個火坑去第三本來就有跨區處理原則所以\n\n10:50.134 --> 11:01.181\n事實上這一個案子來講的話可能也不是說踢皮球是大家都沒有做\n\n11:02.708 --> 11:21.757\n所以我就看到新北市跟台北市也好在這個兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽啊可是對孩子到底誰要來處理這些事情呢?\n\n11:22.943 --> 11:51.370\n所以這就是我們這一次檢討的結果我們發現的問題那我們也希望說未來在這個地方政府的部分負起該負的責任這不是說中央在推脫本來就是如果問題是出在地方地方必須要能夠改善那中央會來督導是不是清楚的因為9月1號他就在劉姓保姆家居住就在台北市了所以\n\n12:01.618 --> 12:21.765\n在選擇保母的部分剛剛委員有提到為什麼要轉換保母這就是一個問題第二個就是說如果要轉換保母為什麼不能在當地去找新北市也不會說完全沒有保母為什麼一定要跑到台北市結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去這個都是要檢討的\n\n12:22.865 --> 12:23.166\n所以這也請部長\n\n12:47.168 --> 13:01.010\n整對各類處理原則要提高法律的強制度所以請你們擬定之後送進來所以不要再有一個下一個凱凱應該講齁從佩佩走到凱凱中間還有受傷的孩子\n\n13:02.719 --> 13:24.544\n請儘速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據,還有改善兒童出養前的照顧,也就是等待期可否修訂家外安置的處理原則,不要位階這麼低,處理不了事情。如果我們號稱事實上是兒童權利公約國內法化,說誓言要保護孩子的人,怎麼會去坐任這些事情不斷的發生?\n\n13:26.365 --> 13:51.568\n尤其一個安置機構的董事說他們他3月11號才看到報告才知道這些事情1月9號保姆已經是生壓的狀態如果機構不能管控的話你們能夠繼續孩子委託在那邊嗎那我們的孩子的權益又是在在哪邊那再來就是電電居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構貢案的準則民定家外兒童虐待處遇的\n\n13:52.168 --> 13:52.188\n主責機構．\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.005,"end":35.236,"text":"有請薛部長來請部長部長上個禮拜我覺得國人應該最關注的就是這個凱凱那這一案我也看到地方政府跟社福團體互踢皮球的醜態也顯示中央政府應該還有很多制度漏洞所以導致問題一再發生我自己來自兒少團體"},{"start":36.361,"end":65.266,"text":"這一案許多陳柯我已倡議多年可是悲劇不斷的發生直到生命消失我們政府才願意改善嗎?這陣子有人一直在對我某種程度在講說不要再去罵耳蒙或者是不要批評地方政府但我的身份從民間團體走進立法院站在這裡我要找出問題解決問題不會因為過去長官或者是交情而退讓"},{"start":65.936,"end":86.527,"text":"這是我捍衛孩子的價值。所以在這邊,兒夢不是第一次。這事實上是在108年,所以我們到底還有多少個愷愷?108年新竹縣的胚胚在保母家離開了一樣是兒夢安置的孩子。"},{"start":87.711,"end":87.731,"text":"陳秦嵐"},{"start":111.421,"end":135.71,"text":"當時同樣也是講說是合格保姆那如果有人因為凱凱案磁熱而蒙的董事那從頭到尾都沒有看到這麼多年產生的兒少的死傷來做道歉我要問政府這5年間從108年直到凱凱案到底政府有沒有掌握相同的狀況至少我手頭上現在還有兩三案事實上是在"},{"start":136.19,"end":158.695,"text":"一樣安置在保姆家,不當對待之後再轉到其他保姆家的。如果安置持續一直有額逆的狀況發生,如果地方政府假設不通報,那機構又隱匿,那衛福部要怎麼處理?請問一下部長,衛福部地方隱瞞然後機構又隱瞞,那請問一下中央要怎麼處理?"},{"start":159.842,"end":167.149,"text":"跟委員報告,所以這部分的話就是要有第二層的監督的機制,也就是說"},{"start":168.188,"end":192.905,"text":"因為這種全日拖的他家屬就沒有辦法去或者說根本本來就無力去處理了所以他才需要全日拖那全日拖的這種情形的話一定要有個別不同來源的這個監督的角色的人進來才能夠double check不然的話這很容易就是我覺得如果機構隱瞞這一層如果"},{"start":196.943,"end":224.936,"text":"地方政府又持續隱瞞衛福部抱歉你很難知道這兩個都隱瞞其實是機率是不大但是這一個中間有人疏忽那或者是說可是我手頭上就有好幾案了而且都是來自這個出洋單位的所以我請部長再來看看凱凱的事件的時間表到底出了什麼事情按照我們的規定直轄縣市"},{"start":226.55,"end":226.95,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":256.432,"end":281.349,"text":"9月去那個111年9月去文山居家托育中心說他要取得那個登記證然後11月10號拿到了可是要訪視輔導良好的話4月17收拖第一個小孩第二個小孩兒童安置的就送進來只有17天他訪視輔導良好嗎按照法規所以要問這政府怎麼去督管不到20天就接第二案"},{"start":282.79,"end":303.492,"text":"劉姓保母有輔導情形良好嗎?誰允許的?可是法規不允許啊。那在機構送孩子去安置,有通知居托中心嗎?從頭到尾,兩邊都不互通。不管是文山居托中心,甚至兒蒙的這個社工,完全不互通。各自做各自的。"},{"start":305.27,"end":326.189,"text":"也要再問的是為什麼一般孩子保母呢都已經是預告不預告訪視了為什麼不預告訪視至少孩子晚上都是帶回去的可是畢竟是在保母家所以呢沒有另外一雙眼睛在監看所以一般保母已經採行不預告訪視可是兒母卻採行預告訪視"},{"start":331.718,"end":354.175,"text":"整個案子我都沒有看到到底在討論兒童權益嗎都沒有在問孩子孩子不是貨物欸誰說了算可是兒權公約明明就很明顯的告訴我們兒童最佳利益為優先考量所以就也要問的是部長未來怎麼去管控本來這個阿嬤的情形就是他請求的什麼他請求的是委託安置"},{"start":354.835,"end":380.244,"text":"那為什麼新北市評估再不過他要帶姊姊然後父母又不見了這個阿嬤已經負擔過他本來就沒有要出養他說他要委託安置可是為什麼地方政府評估的所以我想問部長說這到底誰說了算要不要出養到底是誰說了算是額蒙說了算還是地方政府說了算地方政府不讓他委託安置是缺錢嗎我相信新北市不會缺錢還是中央沒有給他們錢嗎"},{"start":383.638,"end":396.173,"text":"所以這一個部分的話就是我剛剛在口頭報告的時候有說明的第一點這些是要做委託安置還是說要去做出養這個事情不能讓這個媒合機構去決定"},{"start":400.732,"end":401.693,"text":"在出養等待期"},{"start":418.888,"end":420.629,"text":"從頭到尾看到孩子的權益了嗎?等待期的安置條文在哪裡?"},{"start":448.443,"end":457.452,"text":"這麼多年了沒有看到跟流行保姆為什麼額蒙講說他跟流行保姆簽約他也不符合這些規定啊那為什麼沒有更好的評估而且對他評估是什麼"},{"start":458.37,"end":459.971,"text":"我希望中央真的要針對地方政府"},{"start":486.587,"end":514.349,"text":"沒有做好的每一關要卡關卡好來對於機構沒做好的否則佩佩死了然後再來一個凱凱死那我們有一天還要在那質詢台上又哪一個孩子死亡嗎又因為出養前安置嗎所以誰應該主動聯絡我也不知道就是劉憲保姆跟周信跟居托中心居托中心說他沒有接過任何電話那沒有經過兒盟的電話那各做各的所以就沒有辦法在第一時間發現問題"},{"start":516.531,"end":531.431,"text":"所以不知道為什麼請訂出來全部都採行不預告反是才是符合的所以我們就來看我們還要改善什麼請政策把它補起來所以首先要修改出養等待期的法源依據"},{"start":532.537,"end":547.168,"text":"不是誰說了算,要有一個評估而且如果要委託安置,就應該讓他委託安置因為我們還是認為侵權是重要的他跟他父母事實上是,俊光也講說不要讓孩子跟家庭是分離的"},{"start":547.788,"end":571.297,"text":"那怎麼會是讓地方政府這樣子做讓他硬生生的要去要去出洋所以請把這個處理好來甚至等待期我們一直都沒有看到等待期的一些法源依據所以等待期從108年我們還這兩個孩子的命啊一個回應啊讓他的命有所代價不是任由機構任由地方政府這樣做而且中間"},{"start":572.117,"end":578.42,"text":"我現在手頭上還有幾個案子都是因為安置在保母家受虐這些孩子傷要跟誰講所以第二個就是應該強制地方政府來建立防治狀況、輔導良好到底這些名單怎麼來為什麼從頭到尾一個出養機構沒有去問最了解保母的居托中心"},{"start":596.297,"end":620.664,"text":"所以居托中心很多時候都是接到小孩原來安置在我這個保姆家可是我對這個保姆覺得他不太好因為有些保姆小事不斷大事不犯甚至有些保姆因為有超收可能問題是你抓不到他可是居托中心是不會推薦這樣的保姆可是我們確認有出養機構找了這些保姆"},{"start":621.892,"end":647.808,"text":"一而再再而三的發生事情所以是不是把這樣子的一個名單建制好讓孩子到一個有愛心能夠去照顧他們畢竟他跟一般的孩子不太一樣他事實上是365天24小時待在一個保母家沒有另外一個監管機制的話我覺得等於是把孩子推入到另外一個火坑去第三本來就有跨區處理原則所以"},{"start":650.134,"end":661.181,"text":"事實上這一個案子來講的話可能也不是說踢皮球是大家都沒有做"},{"start":662.708,"end":681.757,"text":"所以我就看到新北市跟台北市也好在這個兩個市長都在做各種作文比賽啊可是對孩子到底誰要來處理這些事情呢?"},{"start":682.943,"end":711.37,"text":"所以這就是我們這一次檢討的結果我們發現的問題那我們也希望說未來在這個地方政府的部分負起該負的責任這不是說中央在推脫本來就是如果問題是出在地方地方必須要能夠改善那中央會來督導是不是清楚的因為9月1號他就在劉姓保姆家居住就在台北市了所以"},{"start":711.749,"end":721.476,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":721.618,"end":741.765,"text":"在選擇保母的部分剛剛委員有提到為什麼要轉換保母這就是一個問題第二個就是說如果要轉換保母為什麼不能在當地去找新北市也不會說完全沒有保母為什麼一定要跑到台北市結果很多資料就沒有辦法pass過去這個都是要檢討的"},{"start":742.865,"end":743.166,"text":"所以這也請部長"},{"start":767.168,"end":781.01,"text":"整對各類處理原則要提高法律的強制度所以請你們擬定之後送進來所以不要再有一個下一個凱凱應該講齁從佩佩走到凱凱中間還有受傷的孩子"},{"start":782.719,"end":804.544,"text":"請儘速修正兒童出養前等待期的法源依據,還有改善兒童出養前的照顧,也就是等待期可否修訂家外安置的處理原則,不要位階這麼低,處理不了事情。如果我們號稱事實上是兒童權利公約國內法化,說誓言要保護孩子的人,怎麼會去坐任這些事情不斷的發生?"},{"start":806.365,"end":831.568,"text":"尤其一個安置機構的董事說他們他3月11號才看到報告才知道這些事情1月9號保姆已經是生壓的狀態如果機構不能管控的話你們能夠繼續孩子委託在那邊嗎那我們的孩子的權益又是在在哪邊那再來就是電電居家托育服務中心跟媒合機構貢案的準則民定家外兒童虐待處遇的"},{"start":832.168,"end":832.188,"text":"主責機構．"}]}}}}