{"id":149980,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a081f26fae535a04925cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a619161ef466b908c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"11:01:59 - 11:15:40","影片長度":"00:13:41","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":821,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:15:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:01:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1033,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（11時2分）主席，再請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的有關這個事件的一些時間序，老實說，光看這兩份報告，我們都覺得非常的失望，因為發生了這個天大地大的事情，我們要看的是檢討式的報告，而不是說我們怎樣去修改流程，或是所謂比較像是政令宣導的報告，還好部長你今天做了更深入的口頭說明，比起那兩份報告，我們知道部長的團隊大概這個週末是一刻都不得休息。不過我還是覺得部長今天的報告比較是選擇性的針對地方機構和媒合機構的檢討，至於中央機構、中央主管機關部分，我等一下會有一些事實的討論，就是中央機構本身也有很多需要思考檢討的。","部長，我把質詢題目定位是「一個被置身社安網外的孩子的死」，為什麼我會這樣說呢？我們先看孩子還在世的時候，當然很多委員都提到了，兒福轉介剴剴到劉姓保母這邊提供全日托育，那天是去年的9月1日，但是在25天後，托育服務中心到現場訪視，寫下的字眼是：孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動，需要再花時間慢慢引導。部長，我不知道這段話是一個官樣文章，還是其實背後隱藏了高度警訊？就局外人來看，這是一個高度警訊，但是他就做出了這樣的紀錄。有這樣的紀錄之後，我比較不能接受的是，按照托育服務中心的說法，竟然在3個月後，即12月才要再進行第二次的無預警訪視。然而一通來自保母家的電話表示有同住家人確診，所以就取消了這個訪視，3天後孩子過世。我很想知道那通電話是怎麼談的，那通電話如果是保母方跟托育中心方在討論，我很想知道電話中有沒有提到這個孩子。同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎？保母有沒有提到說會照顧好這個孩子？探視的這一方有沒有說孩子你要保護好？是不是這通電話至少要關心到這個孩子，因為原來的主角就是孩子啊！但是3天後這個孩子過世了，這是非常不幸的事情。","部長，當然你今天道歉了，過去對於食安的問題等等，你都說道歉無濟於事，但是這個兒虐事件，陳建仁院長道歉了，你今天也道歉了！你過去說過道歉無濟於事，老實說，我也承認道歉無濟於事，要認錯才有幫助，因為有錯的地方，我們才知道如何從錯誤的地方來檢討。另外，這是去年12月發生的事，竟然到3月11日才由殯儀館人員透露出來，因為孩子火化之後，聽說包括相關費用都是殯儀館的人支付的，然後這個事才爆發出來。經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來，我不知道這個新聞點是不是有政治考量，居然是3個多月之後才爆發出來！","我們再來看孩子過世之後的事情。12月24日孩子過世了，社會局當然是有不對的地方，第一個，本來就有「重大兒虐事件防治小組實施計畫」，這個計畫我今天查了，是2011年就有了，社會局多此一舉，他沒有依照這個實施計畫，而是去詢問保護司。部長，你知道保護司怎麼回答嗎？保護司回復：此案件行為人是保母，不符合上開計畫。因為上開計畫講的是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人的虐兒事件。部長，保護司這樣回復是對的嗎？保母不是實際照顧的人嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這個部分就是我今天口頭報告的最後一點，事實上這樣回復是不對的……"],["陳委員昭姿：是不當的。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為重大兒虐就是重大兒虐，所以我對外界講說人都死了，怎麼不是重大兒虐！我是講給我們內部的人員以及外部人員，就是各縣市承辦人員，包括他的長官聽的。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我覺得保護司還有一個離譜的地方，保護司跟社家署同屬衛福部，同在一棟大樓上班，聽說他們退回了社會局的說法，因為認為不符合，並建議他去找負責保母及收養業務的社家署，這樣又晚了2天。12月27日社會局詢問社家署，社家署回答什麼？更離譜了！「因為涉及署內跨科室業務，是否召開重大檢討會議，尚在研議中，如需召開再行通知。」從此就沒有下文。部長，這個說法你接受嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這同時也是我今天致歉，答應必須要檢討的事情，因為我們督導不夠周延，事實上，如果這個事情牽涉到部內，部內應該就有機制去協調……"],["陳委員昭姿：橫向聯繫。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，如果是牽涉到社會局，局內也應該有橫向聯繫的……"],["陳委員昭姿：是，我再告訴你，包括署內也有問題。我高度敏感，從3月11日爆發這個案件之後，當天晚上我就要求我的助理馬上聯繫，第2天早上社家署有派人來說明，我問了一連串的問題，大概問了一、二十個問題，等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一些問題點我覺得非常重要，但是社家署的代表跟我說他們是昨天才知道這件事。3月12日早上社家署告訴我，他們也是昨天才知道這件事，就是媒體報導了才知道這件事！部長，我前面已經談過了，事實上，12月27日社會局已經因為保護司的推託，而跟社家署報告過，但社家署的人3月12日到我辦公室跟我說他昨天才知道這件事！"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員提到在12月的時候，的確地方政府是有通報……"],["陳委員昭姿：是，是有通報，我認為社家署的人不會想要欺騙我，但如果他真的不知道發生這件事，那不只是橫向的聯繫問題，這個署內的聯繫也有問題啊！針對這麼重大的事情，派這個代表來找我，我先不說他的職稱，他說他不知道，是昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情，部長，這是我親自在我辦公室發生的。我問了非常多的問題，包括剛剛其他委員關心的，我問了一連串的問題，包括為什麼原來照顧他的保母願意收養孩子，但是沒有被重視，後來的評估當然有些地方機構、媒合機構要負責任，但是您是主管機構。","第二個就是這麼小的孩子，他在保母家被照顧，應該給他熟悉的地方嘛！在這麼短暫的安置期間，他竟然又要再換一個新的保母，這對孩子是何等的殘忍！我這樣子一直問，甚至提出因為兒福機構做出這樣的一個決定，那是不是可以先暫停它的新收養案件，我們來好好檢討發生什麼事，您知道社家署代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎？我不知道他現在有沒有在場，他就跟我說於法無據、都做不到。"],["薛部長瑞元：假如是這個部分的話，後來我們也就是暫停了。"],["陳委員昭姿：我想知道兒福的報告、我想知道社會局的報告，他們都說我沒有資格去看這些資料，我在這裡就是讓部長瞭解。等到案發以後，李次長的回復也非常不恰當，他說因為通報時兒童已經死亡，社政體系配合檢警調查，所以未循重大虐兒事件去程序調查，您同意這個說法嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不是可以請李次長來回答？"],["陳委員昭姿：實在是聽不下去、看不下去了！"],["李次長麗芬：跟委員報告，因為我們要先去釐清它是不是一個兒虐的案件，就像最近臺北市來通報兩個疑似的案件，他也會希望要先釐清，因為在這個過程當中，我們並沒有得到最後的釐清它是不是兒虐案件。當然我們有一個責任就是我們的同仁應該去追那個進度，我們對於這個沒有做到督導的部分也表示抱歉。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，現在是保護司解釋說它不符合喔！它說保母不符合這些規範的行為人喔！這……"],["李次長麗芬：跟委員報告，應該都是重大兒虐，可是在我們內部及地方的分工，會去分不同的場域發生的兒虐有不同的單位要負責，那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：這件事已經搞3個月了。"],["李次長麗芬：我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的負責。"],["陳委員昭姿：從地方政府、中央政府到社會局兒福部門，我剛剛提到證據都很清楚，從保護司、社家署到次長的發言，雖然兒福有道歉，但是現在還沒有認錯。好吧，就算是交給檢調在做調查中，請問社會局要認錯嗎？保護司要認錯嗎？社家署要不要認錯呢？次長你們要認錯，還是部長就認錯了？不是道歉，而是認錯！"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話是政務官負全部的責任，所以我代表再度的致歉，對裡面這樣子從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的，應該是以個案為中心，以小孩子的利益為……"],["陳委員昭姿：我是替你們擔心啦，因為這些發言說不符合上開條件，屬於要跨科室的再討論，這個以後會變成經典之言喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，關於這一個部分的話，我稍微做一點解釋，因為社政的業務非常繁雜，在過去還沒有歸到衛福部之前、還在內政部的時代，對於這些業務的分割就非常的細，所以同仁就變成有一個思考，一旦有一個事件發生的時候，他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我們剛剛是從兒虐……已經11年了。"],["薛部長瑞元：這不對啦，這種想法是不對的，他必須要去做所謂文化的變革，針對這部分的話，我們願意來啟動，開始做這一方面……"],["陳委員昭姿：時空環境不同了，就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理，而且要落實，你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，委員是醫療界出來的應該也很清楚，過去我們對病人也都不是以病人為中心，而是以哪一科、哪一科這樣子分科去做對病人的處理，現在我們往這方面去走。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，正是因為你也出身醫界，這個圖你很清楚嘛，我們20年來在處理病安的時候，大家都看到cheese理論，今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是因為一路錯、一路漏接、一路沒有承接住嘛！這個孩子始終沒有進入社會安全網，他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子，他需要特別保護，但是整個卻都是漏接的。"],["薛部長瑞元：我認為他有進入社會安全網，但是社會安全網裡面的一些機制沒有保護到他啦……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是每個人反應都不對、不恰當啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是我對於剛剛委員所提到保護司、社家署的部分，我已經做了一些解釋。"],["陳委員昭姿：我最後要說的是，我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有嬰兒肥和甜甜的笑容，我真的很慶幸他在短短的一生當中，還曾經有過一段這麼快樂的時光，我也很慶幸在他的生命中至少還有一段這樣的時間，我們一起為這個孩子祝福，希望他往生後會得到安息。部長，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢，等一下邱鎮軍委員發言完畢之後，我們處理臨時提案。先預告今天中午12點半左右會休息30分鐘用餐，因為今天會議比較冗長，也要讓官員有時間稍微用餐、休息。","現在輪到本席發言，麻煩陳委員暫代主席。"],["主席（陳委員菁徽代）：請王委員育敏質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"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\"呃這個我是不是可以請李智來回答實在是聽不下去了啦看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁因為呃我們呃要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"呃\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 564.93, \"end\": 565.611, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 565.611, \"end\": 565.751, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 565.751, \"end\": 565.871, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 565.871, \"end\": 565.891, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 565.891, \"end\": 566.071, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 566.071, \"end\": 566.371, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 566.371, \"end\": 566.511, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"智\", \"start\": 566.511, \"end\": 567.031, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 567.031, \"end\": 567.231, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 567.231, \"end\": 568.432, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 568.432, \"end\": 568.532, 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\"end\": 640.299, \"text\": \"以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛,所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧,就算說交給這個檢調在做調查中,請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 623.951, \"end\": 624.111, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 624.111, \"end\": 624.271, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 624.271, \"end\": 624.431, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 624.431, \"end\": 624.651, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 624.651, \"end\": 624.831, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 624.831, \"end\": 624.992, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 624.992, \"end\": 625.152, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 625.152, \"end\": 625.352, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 625.352, \"end\": 625.552, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 625.552, \"end\": 625.692, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 625.692, 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{\"word\": \"肥\", \"start\": 786.19, \"end\": 786.311, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 786.311, \"end\": 786.391, \"score\": 0.574}, {\"word\": \"甜\", \"start\": 786.391, \"end\": 786.591, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"甜\", \"start\": 786.591, \"end\": 786.691, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 786.691, \"end\": 786.731, \"score\": 0.466}, {\"word\": \"笑\", \"start\": 786.731, \"end\": 786.831, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 786.831, \"end\": 786.851, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"昭\", \"start\": 798.92, \"end\": 799.1, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"姿\", \"start\": 799.1, \"end\": 799.24, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 799.24, \"end\": 799.26, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,961 --> 00:00:32,143\n主席再請部長謝謝休息一下好部長請部長直接看您的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的一些時間序的這個事件老實說光看那兩份報告我們都覺得是非常的失望因為發生了這個天大地大的事情我們要看的是檢討式的報告\n\n2\n00:00:32,803 --> 00:00:49,079\n而不是說我們怎麼樣去修改流程或是所謂的比較像是這個政令的一個宣導報告但是部長您今天是做了更深入的一個口頭說明那我也相信就是說我們也心中有一點就是說比起那兩份報告我們知道部長這個團隊\n\n3\n00:00:52,042 --> 00:00:53,602\n中央機構本身也是要有很多要去思考檢討的\n\n4\n00:01:17,247 --> 00:01:37,002\n部長我把這個題目認為說是一個被社安網置身在網襪的孩子的死為什麼我會這樣說呢部長我們先看孩子還在世的時候當然大家很多委員也提到了兒福轉介凱凱到流行保姆這邊提供全日的托育那天是去年的9月1號\n\n5\n00:01:39,692 --> 00:02:04,735\n但是在25天的時候,托育服務中心到現場訪視他寫下的字眼是寫孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動需要再花時間慢慢引導部長,我不知道這段話是一個官樣的文章還是說其實背後隱藏了高度的警訊\n\n6\n00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:34,188\n就局外人來看這個是一個高度的警訊但是他就做出這樣的記錄那有這樣的記錄之後我比較不能夠接受的是竟然在3個月後12月的按照這個托育服務中心的說法是3個月後才要再做12月才要再做第二次的不預警的這個訪視然而一通電話來自保姆家的電話說同住家人有人確診\n\n7\n00:02:35,809 --> 00:03:04,215\n所以就取消了這個訪視然後三天後孩子過世這個我很想知道內通電話是怎麼談的內通電話如果是保母方跟這個托育中心方來討論我很想知道那個電話有沒有提到這個孩子同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎那有沒有人提到說保母有沒有提到說這個孩子我會照顧好那探視的這一方有沒有說那個孩子你要保護好啊\n\n8\n00:03:05,015 --> 00:03:28,891\n是不是介通廳至少要關心到這個孩子因為原來這個主角是孩子啊但是三天後這個孩子過世了這是非常不幸的部分部長其實您過去當然您今天道歉了過去我們對於食安的問題這個等等您都說道歉無濟於事但是這個事件額略事件陳建仁院長道歉了那您今天也道歉了\n\n9\n00:03:29,892 --> 00:03:47,791\n當然我必須說您當時說過道歉無濟於事部長老實說我承認道歉無濟於事認錯才有幫助因為有錯的地方我們才知道怎麼樣從錯誤的地方來檢討那另外我也覺得說去年12月發生的事\n\n10\n00:03:48,692 --> 00:04:08,499\n到3月11號竟然是由殯儀館的人員因為看到孩子火化之後聽說包括這個費用都是殯儀館的人來支付的這個事才爆發出來經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來我不知道這個新聞點是不是有這個政治考量居然3個多月之後才爆發出來\n\n11\n00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:33,052\n那部長我們再來看孩子這個過世之後的事情12月24號孩子過世了那社會局當然第一個是有不對的地方就第一個本來就有重大人力世界防治小組的實施計畫這個計畫我今天查了是在2011年就有了社會局是多此一舉他沒有依照這個實施計畫但是他去問了保護司\n\n12\n00:04:38,015 --> 00:05:00,592\n部長,你知道保護司怎麼回答的嗎?此案件行為人是保母,不符合上開計畫,因為上開計畫講的就是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人,他有孽兒的事件。部長,保護司這樣回覆是對的嗎?保母不是實際照顧之人嗎?\n\n13\n00:05:03,212 --> 00:05:20,749\n報告委員這部分的話就是我今天口頭報告的最後這一點事實上的話這樣回復是不對因為他重大額內就是重大額內所以我對外界去講說人都死了怎麼不是重大額內我是講給我們的\n\n14\n00:05:23,230 --> 00:05:47,984\n內部的人員以及外部就是各個這個縣市的這個承辦人員包括他的長人聽的但是保護司還有一個我覺得是離譜的地方保護司跟這個社家屬同屬衛福部同在同一個大樓聽說他退回了社會局的這個說法因為他認為不服所以他建議他去找這個保姆跟收養業務的這個社家屬就是又晚了兩天12月27號\n\n15\n00:05:51,547 --> 00:06:05,585\n社會局詢問社家署．社家署回答什麼．更離譜了．因為涉及署內跨科室業務．是否召開重大檢討會議．尚在研議中．如需召開再行通知．然後從此沒有下文\n\n16\n00:06:06,721 --> 00:06:31,734\n部長您覺得這個說法您接受嗎?對,所以這也是同時我今天致歉答應說必須要去做檢討的因為我們的督導不夠周延那這種事情的話事實上牽涉到了如果是屬於部內的部內應該就有機制去實施對,如果是牽涉到是社會局的\n\n17\n00:06:32,674 --> 00:06:59,467\n局內也應該有橫向聯繫的我在告訴你包括署內也還有問題的部長我高度敏感3月11號因為這個從爆發了這個案件之後我當天晚上就要求我們助理馬上聯繫第二天早上社家署有派人來做說明我問了一連串的問題大概問了一二十個問題等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一點問題我覺得非常重要但是社家署的代表跟我說\n\n18\n00:07:00,347 --> 00:07:00,367\n部長﹖\n\n19\n00:07:28,417 --> 00:07:55,982\n事實上剛剛委員提到說在12月的時候那的確是地方政府是有通報是有通報所以我覺得我認為攝家純不會說想要欺騙我但是如果他真的不知道有發生這件事那不只是橫向的聯繫問題啊你這個一個署內的也有問題啊這麼重大的事情來代表來找我的這個代表我先不說他的職稱他說他不知道\n\n20\n00:07:57,961 --> 00:08:24,506\n他說他昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情這個部長這個是我親自在我辦公室發生的我問了我問了非常多的問題包括剛剛其他委員關心的因為我問了一連串的問題包括說為什麼為什麼這個保姆原來照顧他的保姆願意收養這個孩子但是沒有被重視後來的評估當然這個有些地方機構媒合機構要負責任但是您是主管機構第二個就是保姆這麼小的孩子他\n\n21\n00:08:25,086 --> 00:08:51,318\n在保母家照顧應該給他熟悉的地方嘛在這麼短暫的安養之間安置之間他竟然又要再換一個新的保母這對孩子是何等的殘忍我這樣子一直問然後我甚至提出說這個兒福機構因為他做出了這樣的一個決定那我是不是可能說你先暫停他的新收養案件我們來好好檢討發生什麼事您知道社家屬代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎\n\n22\n00:08:55,112 --> 00:09:23,012\n我不知道他現在有沒有在場他都跟我說與法無拒這部分的話後來我們也就是暫停了我想知道社會局的報告他們都說我沒有資格去看這個資料我這裡就是讓這個部長瞭解那等到案發以後我想次長李次長的回覆也非常不恰當他說因為兒童通報時兒童已經死亡社政體系配合檢警調查所以未尋重大虐兒事件去程序調查您同意這個說法嗎\n\n23\n00:09:24,930 --> 00:09:37,576\n呃這個我是不是可以請李智來回答實在是聽不下去了啦看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁因為呃我們呃要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近\n\n24\n00:09:38,188 --> 00:09:38,208\n市長﹗\n\n25\n00:09:58,869 --> 00:10:21,589\n所以保護師解釋這個不符合保姆不符合上這些規範的行為人跟委員報告應該都是重大額內可是在我們內部還是地方的分工會去分不同的場域發生的額內有不同的單位要負責那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告這件事已經搞三個月了就是說我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的負責\n\n26\n00:10:23,951 --> 00:10:40,299\n以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛,所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧,就算說交給這個檢調在做調查中,請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?\n\n27\n00:10:49,686 --> 00:11:02,483\n這部分的話是政府官府全部的責任所以我代表我還是再度的致歉對裡面的這樣子的從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的\n\n28\n00:11:04,207 --> 00:11:11,898\n應該是以個案為中心,以小孩子的利益為基礎。我是替你們擔心,因為這些發言不符合上開條件,這個屬於要跨科室的再討論,這個以後會變成經典之言。\n\n29\n00:11:19,329 --> 00:11:39,454\n委員這一個部分的話我稍微做一點解釋因為社政的業務非常的繁雜所以在過去從這個還沒有歸到這個衛福部之前在內政部的時代是對於這些業務的分割就非常的細所以\n\n30\n00:11:40,615 --> 00:11:58,250\n同仁要變成有一個思考一旦有一個事件發生的時候他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責這個想法是不對這個想法是不對但是他必須要去做所謂的文化的變革\n\n31\n00:11:58,931 --> 00:12:17,376\n那這部分的話我們願意來啟動開始做這一方面時空環境不同了嘛你就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理而且是落實我今天就是沒有在講說你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡跟委員報告委員是屬於醫療界出來應該就很清楚了\n\n32\n00:12:18,137 --> 00:12:33,717\n過去我們對病人也都是不是以病人為中心而是以哪一科哪一科這樣子分科去做處理對病人的處理現在我們往這方面去走部長正是因為您也出身醫界這個圖您很清楚嗎\n\n33\n00:12:34,198 --> 00:12:57,285\n我們20年在處理病安的時候大家都看到這個去死理論嘛今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是一路錯嘛一路漏接嘛一路沒有承接住嘛這個孩子始終沒有進入這個社會安全網他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子嘛他需要特別保護但是整個都是漏接的我是認為他有進入社會安全網但是社會安全網裡面的一些基金沒有保護到他但是每個人反應都不對啊不恰當啊\n\n34\n00:12:59,465 --> 00:13:06,851\n我最後要說的是,因為我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有一個甜甜的嬰兒肥還有甜甜的笑容\n\n35\n00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:19,260\n陳昭姿委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4961\t32143\t主席 再請部長 謝謝休息一下好 部長請部長 直接看您的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的一些時間序的這個事件老實說 光看那兩份報告我們都覺得是非常的失望因為發生了這個天大地大的事情我們要看的是檢討式的報告\n32803\t49079\t而不是說我們怎麼樣去修改流程或是所謂的比較像是這個政令的一個宣導報告但是部長您今天是做了更深入的一個口頭說明那我也相信就是說我們也心中有一點就是說比起那兩份報告我們知道部長這個團隊\n52042\t53602\t中央機構本身也是要有很多要去思考檢討的\n77247\t97002\t部長我把這個題目認為說是一個被社安網置身在網襪的孩子的死為什麼我會這樣說呢部長我們先看孩子還在世的時候當然大家很多委員也提到了兒福轉介凱凱到流行保姆這邊提供全日的托育那天是去年的9月1號\n99692\t124735\t但是在25天的時候,托育服務中心到現場訪視他寫下的字眼是寫孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動需要再花時間慢慢引導部長,我不知道這段話是一個官樣的文章還是說其實背後隱藏了高度的警訊\n125996\t154188\t就局外人來看這個是一個高度的警訊但是他就做出這樣的記錄那有這樣的記錄之後我比較不能夠接受的是竟然在3個月後12月的按照這個托育服務中心的說法是3個月後才要再做12月才要再做第二次的不預警的這個訪視然而一通電話來自保姆家的電話說同住家人有人確診\n155809\t184215\t所以就取消了這個訪視然後三天後孩子過世這個我很想知道內通電話是怎麼談的內通電話如果是保母方跟這個托育中心方來討論我很想知道那個電話有沒有提到這個孩子同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎那有沒有人提到說保母有沒有提到說這個孩子我會照顧好那探視的這一方有沒有說那個孩子你要保護好啊\n185015\t208891\t是不是介通廳至少要關心到這個孩子因為原來這個主角是孩子啊但是三天後這個孩子過世了這是非常不幸的部分部長其實您過去當然您今天道歉了過去我們對於食安的問題這個等等您都說道歉無濟於事但是這個事件額略事件陳建仁院長道歉了那您今天也道歉了\n209892\t227791\t當然我必須說您當時說過道歉無濟於事部長老實說我承認道歉無濟於事認錯才有幫助因為有錯的地方我們才知道怎麼樣從錯誤的地方來檢討那另外我也覺得說去年12月發生的事\n228692\t248499\t到3月11號竟然是由殯儀館的人員因為看到孩子火化之後聽說包括這個費用都是殯儀館的人來支付的這個事才爆發出來經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來我不知道這個新聞點是不是有這個政治考量居然3個多月之後才爆發出來\n250300\t273052\t那部長我們再來看孩子這個過世之後的事情12月24號孩子過世了那社會局當然第一個是有不對的地方就第一個本來就有重大人力世界防治小組的實施計畫這個計畫我今天查了是在2011年就有了社會局是多此一舉他沒有依照這個實施計畫但是他去問了保護司\n278015\t300592\t部長,你知道保護司怎麼回答的嗎?此案件行為人是保母,不符合上開計畫,因為上開計畫講的就是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人,他有孽兒的事件。部長,保護司這樣回覆是對的嗎?保母不是實際照顧之人嗎?\n303212\t320749\t報告委員這部分的話就是我今天口頭報告的最後這一點事實上的話這樣回復是不對因為他重大額內就是重大額內所以我對外界去講說人都死了怎麼不是重大額內我是講給我們的\n323230\t347984\t內部的人員以及外部就是各個這個縣市的這個承辦人員包括他的長人聽的但是保護司還有一個我覺得是離譜的地方保護司跟這個社家屬同屬衛福部同在同一個大樓聽說他退回了社會局的這個說法因為他認為不服所以他建議他去找這個保姆跟收養業務的這個社家屬就是又晚了兩天12月27號\n351547\t365585\t社會局詢問社家署．社家署回答什麼．更離譜了．因為涉及署內跨科室業務．是否召開重大檢討會議．尚在研議中．如需召開再行通知．然後從此沒有下文\n366721\t391734\t部長您覺得這個說法您接受嗎?對,所以這也是同時我今天致歉答應說必須要去做檢討的因為我們的督導不夠周延那這種事情的話事實上牽涉到了如果是屬於部內的部內應該就有機制去實施對,如果是牽涉到是社會局的\n392674\t419467\t局內也應該有橫向聯繫的我在告訴你包括署內也還有問題的部長我高度敏感3月11號因為這個從爆發了這個案件之後我當天晚上就要求我們助理馬上聯繫第二天早上社家署有派人來做說明我問了一連串的問題大概問了一二十個問題等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一點問題我覺得非常重要但是社家署的代表跟我說\n420347\t420367\t部長﹖\n448417\t475982\t事實上剛剛委員提到說在12月的時候那的確是地方政府是有通報是有通報所以我覺得我認為攝家純不會說想要欺騙我但是如果他真的不知道有發生這件事那不只是橫向的聯繫問題啊你這個一個署內的也有問題啊這麼重大的事情來代表來找我的這個代表我先不說他的職稱他說他不知道\n477961\t504506\t他說他昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情這個部長這個是我親自在我辦公室發生的我問了我問了非常多的問題包括剛剛其他委員關心的因為我問了一連串的問題包括說為什麼為什麼這個保姆原來照顧他的保姆願意收養這個孩子但是沒有被重視後來的評估當然這個有些地方機構媒合機構要負責任但是您是主管機構第二個就是保姆這麼小的孩子他\n505086\t531318\t在保母家照顧應該給他熟悉的地方嘛在這麼短暫的安養之間安置之間他竟然又要再換一個新的保母這對孩子是何等的殘忍我這樣子一直問然後我甚至提出說這個兒福機構因為他做出了這樣的一個決定那我是不是可能說你先暫停他的新收養案件我們來好好檢討發生什麼事您知道社家屬代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎\n535112\t563012\t我不知道他現在有沒有在場他都跟我說與法無拒這部分的話後來我們也就是暫停了我想知道社會局的報告他們都說我沒有資格去看這個資料我這裡就是讓這個部長瞭解那等到案發以後我想次長李次長的回覆也非常不恰當他說因為兒童通報時兒童已經死亡社政體系配合檢警調查所以未尋重大虐兒事件去程序調查您同意這個說法嗎\n564930\t577576\t呃這個我是不是可以請李智來回答實在是聽不下去了啦看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁因為呃我們呃要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近\n578188\t578208\t市長﹗\n598869\t621589\t所以保護師解釋這個不符合保姆不符合上這些規範的行為人跟委員報告應該都是重大額內可是在我們內部還是地方的分工會去分不同的場域發生的額內有不同的單位要負責那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告這件事已經搞三個月了就是說我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的負責\n623951\t640299\t以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛,所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧,就算說交給這個檢調在做調查中,請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?\n649686\t662483\t這部分的話是政府官府全部的責任所以我代表我還是再度的致歉對裡面的這樣子的從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的\n664207\t671898\t應該是以個案為中心,以小孩子的利益為基礎。我是替你們擔心,因為這些發言不符合上開條件,這個屬於要跨科室的再討論,這個以後會變成經典之言。\n679329\t699454\t委員這一個部分的話我稍微做一點解釋因為社政的業務非常的繁雜所以在過去從這個還沒有歸到這個衛福部之前在內政部的時代是對於這些業務的分割就非常的細所以\n700615\t718250\t同仁要變成有一個思考一旦有一個事件發生的時候他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責這個想法是不對這個想法是不對但是他必須要去做所謂的文化的變革\n718931\t737376\t那這部分的話我們願意來啟動開始做這一方面時空環境不同了嘛你就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理而且是落實我今天就是沒有在講說你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡跟委員報告委員是屬於醫療界出來應該就很清楚了\n738137\t753717\t過去我們對病人也都是不是以病人為中心而是以哪一科哪一科這樣子分科去做處理對病人的處理現在我們往這方面去走部長正是因為您也出身醫界這個圖您很清楚嗎\n754198\t777285\t我們20年在處理病安的時候大家都看到這個去死理論嘛今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是一路錯嘛一路漏接嘛一路沒有承接住嘛這個孩子始終沒有進入這個社會安全網他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子嘛他需要特別保護但是整個都是漏接的我是認為他有進入社會安全網但是社會安全網裡面的一些基金沒有保護到他但是每個人反應都不對啊不恰當啊\n779465\t786851\t我最後要說的是,因為我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有一個甜甜的嬰兒肥還有甜甜的笑容\n798920\t799260\t陳昭姿委員\n","txt":"主席 再請部長 謝謝休息一下好 部長請部長 直接看您的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的一些時間序的這個事件老實說 光看那兩份報告我們都覺得是非常的失望因為發生了這個天大地大的事情我們要看的是檢討式的報告\n而不是說我們怎麼樣去修改流程或是所謂的比較像是這個政令的一個宣導報告但是部長您今天是做了更深入的一個口頭說明那我也相信就是說我們也心中有一點就是說比起那兩份報告我們知道部長這個團隊\n中央機構本身也是要有很多要去思考檢討的\n部長我把這個題目認為說是一個被社安網置身在網襪的孩子的死為什麼我會這樣說呢部長我們先看孩子還在世的時候當然大家很多委員也提到了兒福轉介凱凱到流行保姆這邊提供全日的托育那天是去年的9月1號\n但是在25天的時候,托育服務中心到現場訪視他寫下的字眼是寫孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動需要再花時間慢慢引導部長,我不知道這段話是一個官樣的文章還是說其實背後隱藏了高度的警訊\n就局外人來看這個是一個高度的警訊但是他就做出這樣的記錄那有這樣的記錄之後我比較不能夠接受的是竟然在3個月後12月的按照這個托育服務中心的說法是3個月後才要再做12月才要再做第二次的不預警的這個訪視然而一通電話來自保姆家的電話說同住家人有人確診\n所以就取消了這個訪視然後三天後孩子過世這個我很想知道內通電話是怎麼談的內通電話如果是保母方跟這個托育中心方來討論我很想知道那個電話有沒有提到這個孩子同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎那有沒有人提到說保母有沒有提到說這個孩子我會照顧好那探視的這一方有沒有說那個孩子你要保護好啊\n是不是介通廳至少要關心到這個孩子因為原來這個主角是孩子啊但是三天後這個孩子過世了這是非常不幸的部分部長其實您過去當然您今天道歉了過去我們對於食安的問題這個等等您都說道歉無濟於事但是這個事件額略事件陳建仁院長道歉了那您今天也道歉了\n當然我必須說您當時說過道歉無濟於事部長老實說我承認道歉無濟於事認錯才有幫助因為有錯的地方我們才知道怎麼樣從錯誤的地方來檢討那另外我也覺得說去年12月發生的事\n到3月11號竟然是由殯儀館的人員因為看到孩子火化之後聽說包括這個費用都是殯儀館的人來支付的這個事才爆發出來經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來我不知道這個新聞點是不是有這個政治考量居然3個多月之後才爆發出來\n那部長我們再來看孩子這個過世之後的事情12月24號孩子過世了那社會局當然第一個是有不對的地方就第一個本來就有重大人力世界防治小組的實施計畫這個計畫我今天查了是在2011年就有了社會局是多此一舉他沒有依照這個實施計畫但是他去問了保護司\n部長,你知道保護司怎麼回答的嗎?此案件行為人是保母,不符合上開計畫,因為上開計畫講的就是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人,他有孽兒的事件。部長,保護司這樣回覆是對的嗎?保母不是實際照顧之人嗎?\n報告委員這部分的話就是我今天口頭報告的最後這一點事實上的話這樣回復是不對因為他重大額內就是重大額內所以我對外界去講說人都死了怎麼不是重大額內我是講給我們的\n內部的人員以及外部就是各個這個縣市的這個承辦人員包括他的長人聽的但是保護司還有一個我覺得是離譜的地方保護司跟這個社家屬同屬衛福部同在同一個大樓聽說他退回了社會局的這個說法因為他認為不服所以他建議他去找這個保姆跟收養業務的這個社家屬就是又晚了兩天12月27號\n社會局詢問社家署．社家署回答什麼．更離譜了．因為涉及署內跨科室業務．是否召開重大檢討會議．尚在研議中．如需召開再行通知．然後從此沒有下文\n部長您覺得這個說法您接受嗎?對,所以這也是同時我今天致歉答應說必須要去做檢討的因為我們的督導不夠周延那這種事情的話事實上牽涉到了如果是屬於部內的部內應該就有機制去實施對,如果是牽涉到是社會局的\n局內也應該有橫向聯繫的我在告訴你包括署內也還有問題的部長我高度敏感3月11號因為這個從爆發了這個案件之後我當天晚上就要求我們助理馬上聯繫第二天早上社家署有派人來做說明我問了一連串的問題大概問了一二十個問題等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一點問題我覺得非常重要但是社家署的代表跟我說\n部長﹖\n事實上剛剛委員提到說在12月的時候那的確是地方政府是有通報是有通報所以我覺得我認為攝家純不會說想要欺騙我但是如果他真的不知道有發生這件事那不只是橫向的聯繫問題啊你這個一個署內的也有問題啊這麼重大的事情來代表來找我的這個代表我先不說他的職稱他說他不知道\n他說他昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情這個部長這個是我親自在我辦公室發生的我問了我問了非常多的問題包括剛剛其他委員關心的因為我問了一連串的問題包括說為什麼為什麼這個保姆原來照顧他的保姆願意收養這個孩子但是沒有被重視後來的評估當然這個有些地方機構媒合機構要負責任但是您是主管機構第二個就是保姆這麼小的孩子他\n在保母家照顧應該給他熟悉的地方嘛在這麼短暫的安養之間安置之間他竟然又要再換一個新的保母這對孩子是何等的殘忍我這樣子一直問然後我甚至提出說這個兒福機構因為他做出了這樣的一個決定那我是不是可能說你先暫停他的新收養案件我們來好好檢討發生什麼事您知道社家屬代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎\n我不知道他現在有沒有在場他都跟我說與法無拒這部分的話後來我們也就是暫停了我想知道社會局的報告他們都說我沒有資格去看這個資料我這裡就是讓這個部長瞭解那等到案發以後我想次長李次長的回覆也非常不恰當他說因為兒童通報時兒童已經死亡社政體系配合檢警調查所以未尋重大虐兒事件去程序調查您同意這個說法嗎\n呃這個我是不是可以請李智來回答實在是聽不下去了啦看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁因為呃我們呃要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近\n市長﹗\n所以保護師解釋這個不符合保姆不符合上這些規範的行為人跟委員報告應該都是重大額內可是在我們內部還是地方的分工會去分不同的場域發生的額內有不同的單位要負責那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告這件事已經搞三個月了就是說我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的負責\n以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛,所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧,就算說交給這個檢調在做調查中,請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?\n這部分的話是政府官府全部的責任所以我代表我還是再度的致歉對裡面的這樣子的從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的\n應該是以個案為中心,以小孩子的利益為基礎。我是替你們擔心,因為這些發言不符合上開條件,這個屬於要跨科室的再討論,這個以後會變成經典之言。\n委員這一個部分的話我稍微做一點解釋因為社政的業務非常的繁雜所以在過去從這個還沒有歸到這個衛福部之前在內政部的時代是對於這些業務的分割就非常的細所以\n同仁要變成有一個思考一旦有一個事件發生的時候他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責這個想法是不對這個想法是不對但是他必須要去做所謂的文化的變革\n那這部分的話我們願意來啟動開始做這一方面時空環境不同了嘛你就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理而且是落實我今天就是沒有在講說你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡跟委員報告委員是屬於醫療界出來應該就很清楚了\n過去我們對病人也都是不是以病人為中心而是以哪一科哪一科這樣子分科去做處理對病人的處理現在我們往這方面去走部長正是因為您也出身醫界這個圖您很清楚嗎\n我們20年在處理病安的時候大家都看到這個去死理論嘛今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是一路錯嘛一路漏接嘛一路沒有承接住嘛這個孩子始終沒有進入這個社會安全網他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子嘛他需要特別保護但是整個都是漏接的我是認為他有進入社會安全網但是社會安全網裡面的一些基金沒有保護到他但是每個人反應都不對啊不恰當啊\n我最後要說的是,因為我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有一個甜甜的嬰兒肥還有甜甜的笑容\n陳昭姿委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.961 --> 00:32.143\n主席再請部長謝謝休息一下好部長請部長直接看您的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的一些時間序的這個事件老實說光看那兩份報告我們都覺得是非常的失望因為發生了這個天大地大的事情我們要看的是檢討式的報告\n\n00:32.803 --> 00:49.079\n而不是說我們怎麼樣去修改流程或是所謂的比較像是這個政令的一個宣導報告但是部長您今天是做了更深入的一個口頭說明那我也相信就是說我們也心中有一點就是說比起那兩份報告我們知道部長這個團隊\n\n00:52.042 --> 00:53.602\n中央機構本身也是要有很多要去思考檢討的\n\n01:17.247 --> 01:37.002\n部長我把這個題目認為說是一個被社安網置身在網襪的孩子的死為什麼我會這樣說呢部長我們先看孩子還在世的時候當然大家很多委員也提到了兒福轉介凱凱到流行保姆這邊提供全日的托育那天是去年的9月1號\n\n01:39.692 --> 02:04.735\n但是在25天的時候,托育服務中心到現場訪視他寫下的字眼是寫孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動需要再花時間慢慢引導部長,我不知道這段話是一個官樣的文章還是說其實背後隱藏了高度的警訊\n\n02:05.996 --> 02:34.188\n就局外人來看這個是一個高度的警訊但是他就做出這樣的記錄那有這樣的記錄之後我比較不能夠接受的是竟然在3個月後12月的按照這個托育服務中心的說法是3個月後才要再做12月才要再做第二次的不預警的這個訪視然而一通電話來自保姆家的電話說同住家人有人確診\n\n02:35.809 --> 03:04.215\n所以就取消了這個訪視然後三天後孩子過世這個我很想知道內通電話是怎麼談的內通電話如果是保母方跟這個托育中心方來討論我很想知道那個電話有沒有提到這個孩子同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎那有沒有人提到說保母有沒有提到說這個孩子我會照顧好那探視的這一方有沒有說那個孩子你要保護好啊\n\n03:05.015 --> 03:28.891\n是不是介通廳至少要關心到這個孩子因為原來這個主角是孩子啊但是三天後這個孩子過世了這是非常不幸的部分部長其實您過去當然您今天道歉了過去我們對於食安的問題這個等等您都說道歉無濟於事但是這個事件額略事件陳建仁院長道歉了那您今天也道歉了\n\n03:29.892 --> 03:47.791\n當然我必須說您當時說過道歉無濟於事部長老實說我承認道歉無濟於事認錯才有幫助因為有錯的地方我們才知道怎麼樣從錯誤的地方來檢討那另外我也覺得說去年12月發生的事\n\n03:48.692 --> 04:08.499\n到3月11號竟然是由殯儀館的人員因為看到孩子火化之後聽說包括這個費用都是殯儀館的人來支付的這個事才爆發出來經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來我不知道這個新聞點是不是有這個政治考量居然3個多月之後才爆發出來\n\n04:10.300 --> 04:33.052\n那部長我們再來看孩子這個過世之後的事情12月24號孩子過世了那社會局當然第一個是有不對的地方就第一個本來就有重大人力世界防治小組的實施計畫這個計畫我今天查了是在2011年就有了社會局是多此一舉他沒有依照這個實施計畫但是他去問了保護司\n\n04:38.015 --> 05:00.592\n部長,你知道保護司怎麼回答的嗎?此案件行為人是保母,不符合上開計畫,因為上開計畫講的就是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人,他有孽兒的事件。部長,保護司這樣回覆是對的嗎?保母不是實際照顧之人嗎?\n\n05:03.212 --> 05:20.749\n報告委員這部分的話就是我今天口頭報告的最後這一點事實上的話這樣回復是不對因為他重大額內就是重大額內所以我對外界去講說人都死了怎麼不是重大額內我是講給我們的\n\n05:23.230 --> 05:47.984\n內部的人員以及外部就是各個這個縣市的這個承辦人員包括他的長人聽的但是保護司還有一個我覺得是離譜的地方保護司跟這個社家屬同屬衛福部同在同一個大樓聽說他退回了社會局的這個說法因為他認為不服所以他建議他去找這個保姆跟收養業務的這個社家屬就是又晚了兩天12月27號\n\n05:51.547 --> 06:05.585\n社會局詢問社家署．社家署回答什麼．更離譜了．因為涉及署內跨科室業務．是否召開重大檢討會議．尚在研議中．如需召開再行通知．然後從此沒有下文\n\n06:06.721 --> 06:31.734\n部長您覺得這個說法您接受嗎?對,所以這也是同時我今天致歉答應說必須要去做檢討的因為我們的督導不夠周延那這種事情的話事實上牽涉到了如果是屬於部內的部內應該就有機制去實施對,如果是牽涉到是社會局的\n\n06:32.674 --> 06:59.467\n局內也應該有橫向聯繫的我在告訴你包括署內也還有問題的部長我高度敏感3月11號因為這個從爆發了這個案件之後我當天晚上就要求我們助理馬上聯繫第二天早上社家署有派人來做說明我問了一連串的問題大概問了一二十個問題等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一點問題我覺得非常重要但是社家署的代表跟我說\n\n07:00.347 --> 07:00.367\n部長﹖\n\n07:28.417 --> 07:55.982\n事實上剛剛委員提到說在12月的時候那的確是地方政府是有通報是有通報所以我覺得我認為攝家純不會說想要欺騙我但是如果他真的不知道有發生這件事那不只是橫向的聯繫問題啊你這個一個署內的也有問題啊這麼重大的事情來代表來找我的這個代表我先不說他的職稱他說他不知道\n\n07:57.961 --> 08:24.506\n他說他昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情這個部長這個是我親自在我辦公室發生的我問了我問了非常多的問題包括剛剛其他委員關心的因為我問了一連串的問題包括說為什麼為什麼這個保姆原來照顧他的保姆願意收養這個孩子但是沒有被重視後來的評估當然這個有些地方機構媒合機構要負責任但是您是主管機構第二個就是保姆這麼小的孩子他\n\n08:25.086 --> 08:51.318\n在保母家照顧應該給他熟悉的地方嘛在這麼短暫的安養之間安置之間他竟然又要再換一個新的保母這對孩子是何等的殘忍我這樣子一直問然後我甚至提出說這個兒福機構因為他做出了這樣的一個決定那我是不是可能說你先暫停他的新收養案件我們來好好檢討發生什麼事您知道社家屬代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎\n\n08:55.112 --> 09:23.012\n我不知道他現在有沒有在場他都跟我說與法無拒這部分的話後來我們也就是暫停了我想知道社會局的報告他們都說我沒有資格去看這個資料我這裡就是讓這個部長瞭解那等到案發以後我想次長李次長的回覆也非常不恰當他說因為兒童通報時兒童已經死亡社政體系配合檢警調查所以未尋重大虐兒事件去程序調查您同意這個說法嗎\n\n09:24.930 --> 09:37.576\n呃這個我是不是可以請李智來回答實在是聽不下去了啦看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁因為呃我們呃要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近\n\n09:38.188 --> 09:38.208\n市長﹗\n\n09:58.869 --> 10:21.589\n所以保護師解釋這個不符合保姆不符合上這些規範的行為人跟委員報告應該都是重大額內可是在我們內部還是地方的分工會去分不同的場域發生的額內有不同的單位要負責那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告這件事已經搞三個月了就是說我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的負責\n\n10:23.951 --> 10:40.299\n以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛,所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧,就算說交給這個檢調在做調查中,請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?\n\n10:49.686 --> 11:02.483\n這部分的話是政府官府全部的責任所以我代表我還是再度的致歉對裡面的這樣子的從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的\n\n11:04.207 --> 11:11.898\n應該是以個案為中心,以小孩子的利益為基礎。我是替你們擔心,因為這些發言不符合上開條件,這個屬於要跨科室的再討論,這個以後會變成經典之言。\n\n11:19.329 --> 11:39.454\n委員這一個部分的話我稍微做一點解釋因為社政的業務非常的繁雜所以在過去從這個還沒有歸到這個衛福部之前在內政部的時代是對於這些業務的分割就非常的細所以\n\n11:40.615 --> 11:58.250\n同仁要變成有一個思考一旦有一個事件發生的時候他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責這個想法是不對這個想法是不對但是他必須要去做所謂的文化的變革\n\n11:58.931 --> 12:17.376\n那這部分的話我們願意來啟動開始做這一方面時空環境不同了嘛你就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理而且是落實我今天就是沒有在講說你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡跟委員報告委員是屬於醫療界出來應該就很清楚了\n\n12:18.137 --> 12:33.717\n過去我們對病人也都是不是以病人為中心而是以哪一科哪一科這樣子分科去做處理對病人的處理現在我們往這方面去走部長正是因為您也出身醫界這個圖您很清楚嗎\n\n12:34.198 --> 12:57.285\n我們20年在處理病安的時候大家都看到這個去死理論嘛今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是一路錯嘛一路漏接嘛一路沒有承接住嘛這個孩子始終沒有進入這個社會安全網他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子嘛他需要特別保護但是整個都是漏接的我是認為他有進入社會安全網但是社會安全網裡面的一些基金沒有保護到他但是每個人反應都不對啊不恰當啊\n\n12:59.465 --> 13:06.851\n我最後要說的是,因為我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有一個甜甜的嬰兒肥還有甜甜的笑容\n\n13:18.920 --> 13:19.260\n陳昭姿委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.961,"end":32.143,"text":"主席 再請部長 謝謝休息一下好 部長請部長 直接看您的報告還有禮拜天特別加進來的一些時間序的這個事件老實說 光看那兩份報告我們都覺得是非常的失望因為發生了這個天大地大的事情我們要看的是檢討式的報告"},{"start":32.803,"end":49.079,"text":"而不是說我們怎麼樣去修改流程或是所謂的比較像是這個政令的一個宣導報告但是部長您今天是做了更深入的一個口頭說明那我也相信就是說我們也心中有一點就是說比起那兩份報告我們知道部長這個團隊"},{"start":52.042,"end":53.602,"text":"中央機構本身也是要有很多要去思考檢討的"},{"start":77.247,"end":97.002,"text":"部長我把這個題目認為說是一個被社安網置身在網襪的孩子的死為什麼我會這樣說呢部長我們先看孩子還在世的時候當然大家很多委員也提到了兒福轉介凱凱到流行保姆這邊提供全日的托育那天是去年的9月1號"},{"start":99.692,"end":124.735,"text":"但是在25天的時候,托育服務中心到現場訪視他寫下的字眼是寫孩子無法自然融入托育地的活動需要再花時間慢慢引導部長,我不知道這段話是一個官樣的文章還是說其實背後隱藏了高度的警訊"},{"start":125.996,"end":154.188,"text":"就局外人來看這個是一個高度的警訊但是他就做出這樣的記錄那有這樣的記錄之後我比較不能夠接受的是竟然在3個月後12月的按照這個托育服務中心的說法是3個月後才要再做12月才要再做第二次的不預警的這個訪視然而一通電話來自保姆家的電話說同住家人有人確診"},{"start":155.809,"end":184.215,"text":"所以就取消了這個訪視然後三天後孩子過世這個我很想知道內通電話是怎麼談的內通電話如果是保母方跟這個托育中心方來討論我很想知道那個電話有沒有提到這個孩子同住家人確診是阻止這個訪視的原因嗎那有沒有人提到說保母有沒有提到說這個孩子我會照顧好那探視的這一方有沒有說那個孩子你要保護好啊"},{"start":185.015,"end":208.891,"text":"是不是介通廳至少要關心到這個孩子因為原來這個主角是孩子啊但是三天後這個孩子過世了這是非常不幸的部分部長其實您過去當然您今天道歉了過去我們對於食安的問題這個等等您都說道歉無濟於事但是這個事件額略事件陳建仁院長道歉了那您今天也道歉了"},{"start":209.892,"end":227.791,"text":"當然我必須說您當時說過道歉無濟於事部長老實說我承認道歉無濟於事認錯才有幫助因為有錯的地方我們才知道怎麼樣從錯誤的地方來檢討那另外我也覺得說去年12月發生的事"},{"start":228.692,"end":248.499,"text":"到3月11號竟然是由殯儀館的人員因為看到孩子火化之後聽說包括這個費用都是殯儀館的人來支付的這個事才爆發出來經過這麼長的時間才爆發出來我不知道這個新聞點是不是有這個政治考量居然3個多月之後才爆發出來"},{"start":250.3,"end":273.052,"text":"那部長我們再來看孩子這個過世之後的事情12月24號孩子過世了那社會局當然第一個是有不對的地方就第一個本來就有重大人力世界防治小組的實施計畫這個計畫我今天查了是在2011年就有了社會局是多此一舉他沒有依照這個實施計畫但是他去問了保護司"},{"start":278.015,"end":300.592,"text":"部長,你知道保護司怎麼回答的嗎?此案件行為人是保母,不符合上開計畫,因為上開計畫講的就是兒童的父母、監護人或實際照顧人,他有孽兒的事件。部長,保護司這樣回覆是對的嗎?保母不是實際照顧之人嗎?"},{"start":303.212,"end":320.749,"text":"報告委員這部分的話就是我今天口頭報告的最後這一點事實上的話這樣回復是不對因為他重大額內就是重大額內所以我對外界去講說人都死了怎麼不是重大額內我是講給我們的"},{"start":323.23,"end":347.984,"text":"內部的人員以及外部就是各個這個縣市的這個承辦人員包括他的長人聽的但是保護司還有一個我覺得是離譜的地方保護司跟這個社家屬同屬衛福部同在同一個大樓聽說他退回了社會局的這個說法因為他認為不服所以他建議他去找這個保姆跟收養業務的這個社家屬就是又晚了兩天12月27號"},{"start":351.547,"end":365.585,"text":"社會局詢問社家署．社家署回答什麼．更離譜了．因為涉及署內跨科室業務．是否召開重大檢討會議．尚在研議中．如需召開再行通知．然後從此沒有下文"},{"start":366.721,"end":391.734,"text":"部長您覺得這個說法您接受嗎?對,所以這也是同時我今天致歉答應說必須要去做檢討的因為我們的督導不夠周延那這種事情的話事實上牽涉到了如果是屬於部內的部內應該就有機制去實施對,如果是牽涉到是社會局的"},{"start":392.674,"end":419.467,"text":"局內也應該有橫向聯繫的我在告訴你包括署內也還有問題的部長我高度敏感3月11號因為這個從爆發了這個案件之後我當天晚上就要求我們助理馬上聯繫第二天早上社家署有派人來做說明我問了一連串的問題大概問了一二十個問題等一下我再跟部長報告是哪一點問題我覺得非常重要但是社家署的代表跟我說"},{"start":420.347,"end":420.367,"text":"部長﹖"},{"start":448.417,"end":475.982,"text":"事實上剛剛委員提到說在12月的時候那的確是地方政府是有通報是有通報所以我覺得我認為攝家純不會說想要欺騙我但是如果他真的不知道有發生這件事那不只是橫向的聯繫問題啊你這個一個署內的也有問題啊這麼重大的事情來代表來找我的這個代表我先不說他的職稱他說他不知道"},{"start":477.961,"end":504.506,"text":"他說他昨天才跟媒體一起知道這個事情這個部長這個是我親自在我辦公室發生的我問了我問了非常多的問題包括剛剛其他委員關心的因為我問了一連串的問題包括說為什麼為什麼這個保姆原來照顧他的保姆願意收養這個孩子但是沒有被重視後來的評估當然這個有些地方機構媒合機構要負責任但是您是主管機構第二個就是保姆這麼小的孩子他"},{"start":505.086,"end":531.318,"text":"在保母家照顧應該給他熟悉的地方嘛在這麼短暫的安養之間安置之間他竟然又要再換一個新的保母這對孩子是何等的殘忍我這樣子一直問然後我甚至提出說這個兒福機構因為他做出了這樣的一個決定那我是不是可能說你先暫停他的新收養案件我們來好好檢討發生什麼事您知道社家屬代表怎麼跟我回答的嗎"},{"start":535.112,"end":563.012,"text":"我不知道他現在有沒有在場他都跟我說與法無拒這部分的話後來我們也就是暫停了我想知道社會局的報告他們都說我沒有資格去看這個資料我這裡就是讓這個部長瞭解那等到案發以後我想次長李次長的回覆也非常不恰當他說因為兒童通報時兒童已經死亡社政體系配合檢警調查所以未尋重大虐兒事件去程序調查您同意這個說法嗎"},{"start":564.93,"end":577.576,"text":"呃這個我是不是可以請李智來回答實在是聽不下去了啦看不下去了啦跟委員報告齁因為呃我們呃要先去釐清他是不是一個額內的一個案件就像最近"},{"start":578.188,"end":578.208,"text":"市長﹗"},{"start":598.869,"end":621.589,"text":"所以保護師解釋這個不符合保姆不符合上這些規範的行為人跟委員報告應該都是重大額內可是在我們內部還是地方的分工會去分不同的場域發生的額內有不同的單位要負責那我們也針對這個部分在這次檢討報告這件事已經搞三個月了就是說我們一定要回到保護系統來做全權的負責"},{"start":623.951,"end":640.299,"text":"以我地方政府、中央政府嘛,從社會局、兒福嘛,到這個我剛剛提到的嘛,證據都在,很清楚保護司、社保司到次長的發言嘛,所以我說齁,兒福有道歉啦,但是現在還沒有認錯,因為好吧,就算說交給這個檢調在做調查中,請問社會局要認錯嗎?保護司要認錯嗎?社家屬要不要認錯呢?次長你要不要認錯,還是部長就認錯了?"},{"start":649.686,"end":662.483,"text":"這部分的話是政府官府全部的責任所以我代表我還是再度的致歉對裡面的這樣子的從單位分工的角度去思考事情是錯的"},{"start":664.207,"end":671.898,"text":"應該是以個案為中心,以小孩子的利益為基礎。我是替你們擔心,因為這些發言不符合上開條件,這個屬於要跨科室的再討論,這個以後會變成經典之言。"},{"start":679.329,"end":699.454,"text":"委員這一個部分的話我稍微做一點解釋因為社政的業務非常的繁雜所以在過去從這個還沒有歸到這個衛福部之前在內政部的時代是對於這些業務的分割就非常的細所以"},{"start":700.615,"end":718.25,"text":"同仁要變成有一個思考一旦有一個事件發生的時候他第一個就要釐清到底是由哪一個單位去主責這個想法是不對這個想法是不對但是他必須要去做所謂的文化的變革"},{"start":718.931,"end":737.376,"text":"那這部分的話我們願意來啟動開始做這一方面時空環境不同了嘛你就是要趕快加速整個規範的整理而且是落實我今天就是沒有在講說你要認錯才知道錯在哪裡跟委員報告委員是屬於醫療界出來應該就很清楚了"},{"start":738.137,"end":753.717,"text":"過去我們對病人也都是不是以病人為中心而是以哪一科哪一科這樣子分科去做處理對病人的處理現在我們往這方面去走部長正是因為您也出身醫界這個圖您很清楚嗎"},{"start":754.198,"end":777.285,"text":"我們20年在處理病安的時候大家都看到這個去死理論嘛今天這個重大的悲劇會發生就是一路錯嘛一路漏接嘛一路沒有承接住嘛這個孩子始終沒有進入這個社會安全網他事實上是個出生以後就命運多舛的孩子嘛他需要特別保護但是整個都是漏接的我是認為他有進入社會安全網但是社會安全網裡面的一些基金沒有保護到他但是每個人反應都不對啊不恰當啊"},{"start":779.465,"end":786.851,"text":"我最後要說的是,因為我想很多人都看過這個孩子在周姓保母家還有一個甜甜的嬰兒肥還有甜甜的笑容"},{"start":798.92,"end":799.26,"text":"陳昭姿委員"}]}}}}