{"id":149982,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a157d8a999a14d18accd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a62ea2eef765d06ad55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:33:22 - 10:42:22","影片長度":"00:09:00","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":540,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:42:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:33:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時33分）謝謝主席，我們請內政部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長早。首先我想要請教社會住宅的部分，因為其實我身邊有非常多跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友，大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋得怎麼樣，我們到底居住權的落實如何。其實看一下過去我們臺灣的資料，2016年當時的社宅大概只有7,200戶，但是到了2023年，現在已經快12萬戶了，加上準備要興建的總共20萬戶，其實是漲了非常非常多倍，這個我要非常的肯定，在這8年裡面做社會住宅做得非常非常用心。過去我們也修了住宅法，在2016年上任之後馬上就修住宅法，讓中央能夠開始協助地方來做這些住宅的興建，包括土地的取得、包括照顧弱勢等等，後續其實也修了平均地權條例，然後擴大租金的補助，還有修正租賃專法以及房地合一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等，這些是我們過去這8年在居住正義上面的努力，我要先予以肯定。","只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多，大家就會討論租金怎麼樣、入住的條件怎麼樣，所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節、更具體的部分，讓青年朋友知道，接下來我想要申請社宅、我想要入住社宅，這些租金我能不能夠負擔得起。我接下來要跟部長討論是，現在我們內政部社宅的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式，沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度，可是我知道內政部在上個月跟各縣市有開會，還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式。其實現在臺灣有一些縣市有開始進行這個分級收費的制度，我想要請教的是，我們內政部有考慮要做嗎？如果沒有是為什麼？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的指教。目前有用所得收入來分級租金的大概有三個城市，第一個是臺北跟桃園，另外，新北是在上個月才要開始做。不過在這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題，譬如說在臺北市，實際上運用社宅的民眾大概有73%，他的所得是在中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下，但是實際上有中低收入或者低收入戶身分的只有15%，這個落差非常的大，所以這是一個蠻大的問題，也就是說資源會有一些錯置……"],["黃委員捷：OK，謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：我們目前有新的一個方案，因為大家關心的是新的社宅出來之後，到時候用新的租金去算會不會更高？這一點請大家放心，因為我們未來新的方案會是新的社宅，但是用10年中古屋的租金來作為計算的基準，另外再加打折，打折的折數也比之前再進一步增加。"],["黃委員捷：比八折還低？"],["林部長右昌：還低。"],["黃委員捷：OK。"],["林部長右昌：另外是原本五折的部分會降低到四點五折到三折，所以會比之前的租金水準還要再更降低，這一點請大家放心。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長，這就是我想要知道的，很感謝現在內政部願意進行分級收費的調整，因為大家真的蠻擔心如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式，大家不一定能夠負擔得起，我也知道……"],["林部長右昌：因為大家擔心現在新房子會用新的價錢。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["林部長右昌：我們是用10年中古屋來算。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長。你剛剛提到那種方案，就是他雖然是用低收入戶的身分去報，但是實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶，這個落差就是會有一種所謂的假窮人出現，我知道內政部的擔憂，你們看這個所得稅資料可能會因為執行業務所得、利息收入或者是租賃所得或是財產交易所得逃漏的情況，導致這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入。我想要講的是，其實有其他的例子，例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋支出的特別扣除額都有20%以下的門檻，也就是說，其實從其他的例子來看，你們還是有辦法儘量去找到他是不是真的是需要協助的對象。因為社宅的目的就是我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度，所以我希望接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人。因為我看了一下，以臺北明倫社宅為例，這個殷鑑不遠，臺北明倫社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的設計，因為裡面我有看到它其實弱勢一戶可能低收入只有二萬多左右，可是國際可負擔租金所得比只有30%，它的負擔所得比是50%到70%，也就是說對於弱勢來說，他是完全沒有辦法支付的。所以我希望這樣的情況不會在中央的社宅裡面出現，然後這個更細的分級制度也一定要訂定，所以新的方案也希望接下來內政部趕快公告，讓大家知道是真的有辦法符合照顧弱勢的。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員，我用20秒跟你回復一下。第一個，我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的精神，所以我們在新的方案的時候，其實將負擔率從原本的30%降到20%，所以我們是朝這個方向在努力。當然，因為臺灣推動社會住宅時間說實在還短，所以我們需要一步一步的朝那個方向去努力；第二個，我們必須要承認現在的課稅制度所呈現出來的資料的確是有蠻大的問題；第三個，所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的照顧，這部分可能要另外來思考所謂的貧窮線的調整，這需要更大的討論跟共識，基本上站在我們部門的角度，我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮線調整的一個方向。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。剛剛說到稅制的部分，你們可以用其他社福檢核方式去查他的存款、股票、不動產，這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去檢核他是不是符合這個條件。好，謝謝部長，居住正義我們一起努力。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：接下來，我們請警政署長，最後一點時間，我想要問一下……"],["主席：有請黃署長。"],["黃委員捷：因為基隆的警察衝到NET這件事情，從2月1號到現在已經快二個月了，可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚，我覺得警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告？假設現在警察接到一個報案，房東說有一個租客的租約到期還沒有搬走，那警察到現場去溝通協調，但是租客沒有搬走，請問警察可以直接破門而入嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：我想這個涉及到……"],["黃委員捷：可以嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：公權力執行，當然不能這樣子處理。"],["黃委員捷：請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了？"],["黃署長明昭：基隆的警察他們回覆給我的報告資料是說，市政府召開會議的時候……"],["黃委員捷：他說他去協助交通處嘛！可以這樣子嗎？他的協助是破門而入嗎？他第一個去打開門？"],["黃署長明昭：他們給我的資料是說，不是他們去打開的，是由市政府聘請的鎖匠來打開的。"],["黃委員捷：這種說法，你可以接受嗎？署長。"],["黃署長明昭：當然這個後來有提告了，那檢察官那邊在做偵查……"],["黃委員捷：我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度啦！不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序，產權爭議是一回事，但是警察的職權也是一回事，我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責，並且檢討好嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：好，行政協助我們有訂定一個原則，要律定這個原則並依照這個原則來出勤。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，也謝謝部長跟署長，謝謝。","繼續我們請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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\"end\": 528.718, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,985 --> 00:00:10,527\n好謝謝主席我們請內政部長再請您部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,418 --> 00:00:28,083\n首先我想請教這個社會住宅的部分因為其實我身邊有非常多的跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋的怎麼樣我們到底居住權的落實如何\n\n3\n00:00:32,105 --> 00:00:47,455\n那其實看一下過去我們台灣的資料從2016年其實當時的秀宅大概只有7200戶但是呢到了2023年現在已經快12萬戶了那當然加上準備要興建的總共20萬戶其實是漲了非常非常多倍\n\n4\n00:00:47,995 --> 00:00:48,015\n〔記者訪問〕\n\n5\n00:01:13,580 --> 00:01:40,808\n來修正這個租賃的專法以及房地合一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等那這其實是我們過去這8年在這些居住正義上面的努力我要先予以肯定那只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多啊大家就會討論說那這個租金怎麼樣那入住的條件怎麼樣所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節更具體的部分讓青年朋友知道說接下來我想要申請\n\n6\n00:01:41,348 --> 00:02:10,303\n社宅我想要入住社宅這些租金我能不能夠負擔得起那我接下來要跟部長討論的就是說現在啊我們內政部的社宅的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式那其實沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度可是我知道內政部在上個月其實跟各縣市有開會就是說我們還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式那其實現在台灣有\n\n7\n00:02:11,164 --> 00:02:19,812\n憲事有開始進行到這個分級收費的制度我想請教的是我們內政部有考慮要做嗎如果沒有是為什麼\n\n8\n00:02:22,470 --> 00:02:39,821\n謝謝委員的指教我想目前有用這個所謂所得收入來分級租金的大概有三個城市第一個是臺北跟桃園另外新北的話是在上個月他們才要開始做\n\n9\n00:02:42,262 --> 00:03:06,936\n不過在這個執行這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題就是包括比如說在臺北市他的一個實際上運用社宅的這個民眾大概有73%他的所得是在這個中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下但是實際上有這個中低收入或者低收入戶身份的只有15%這個落差非常的大\n\n10\n00:03:07,617 --> 00:03:22,839\n所以這個是一個蠻大的一個問題也就是說資源會有一些挫折我們目前有新的一個方案就是因為大家關心的是說新的社債出來之後到時候用新的租金去算會不會更高\n\n11\n00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:52,135\n這一點請大家放心因為我們未來新的方案是會新的設宅但是用10年中古屋的租金來做為計算的基準然後另外再加打折那另外打折的折數也比之前在進步增加還低另外是原本5折的部分會降低到4.5折到3折所以會比之前的租金的水準還要再更降低這一點請大家放心\n\n12\n00:03:52,475 --> 00:04:12,592\n好謝謝部長這就是我想要知道的很感謝現在我們內政部願意再進行這個分級收費的調整因為大家真的蠻擔心說如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式大家不一定能夠負擔得起對因為大家擔心說現在新房子會用新的價錢我們是用10年中古屋來算\n\n13\n00:04:13,252 --> 00:04:35,536\n謝謝部長那其實這個因為其實現在大家在說這個其實你剛剛提到那種方案說就是他雖然是用這個低收入戶的身份去報的但是其實他實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶那就是這個落差其實就是一種會有所謂的假窮人出現啦我知道內政部的擔憂可是因為其實現在所得稅的資料我知道你們看這個所得稅資料裡面是可能會用因為他的\n\n14\n00:04:40,737 --> 00:04:45,781\n業務執行業務所得利息收入或者是註定所得或是產產交易的所得的討論的情況導致說這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入嗎那其實我想要講的是其實有其他的例子例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋的支出的特別扣除額他都有20%以下的門檻也就是說其實其他的例子來看這個你們還是有辦法去盡量的\n\n15\n00:05:06,937 --> 00:05:24,447\n找到他是不是所謂的真的需要協助的這個對象那因為其實社宅他的目的就是說我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度所以我希望的是接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人\n\n16\n00:05:24,807 --> 00:05:47,717\n因為其實我看了一下就是以臺北這個民伦社宅的例子這個因見不遠啊臺北民伦社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的一個設計因為裡面我看到說他其實弱勢假設我們的收入一戶他可能低收入只有兩萬多左右可是如果我們國際的可負擔租金的\n\n17\n00:05:48,417 --> 00:06:15,273\n的所得比只有30%那其實他的這個負擔所得比是50%到70%也就是說對於弱勢來說他是完全沒有辦法支付的所以我希望說這樣的情況不會在我們中央的社宅裡面出現然後這個更細的分級制度裡面也一定要來訂定所以新的這個方案也希望接下來我們內政部趕快公告然後讓大家知道說我們是真的有辦法去符合這個照顧到弱勢的\n\n18\n00:06:16,693 --> 00:06:37,646\n我用20秒跟你回復一下,第一個我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的這個精神,那所以我們在這個新的方案的時候其實將這個負擔率從原本的30%降到20%,所以我們是朝這個方向在努力,當然這個因為台灣推動社會主宰時間說實在還短,所以我們需要\n\n19\n00:06:38,246 --> 00:06:56,720\n一步一步的朝那個方向去努力那第二個我們必須要承認現在的科稅的制度所呈現出來的資料的確是有蠻大的一個問題那第三呢就是所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的一個照顧這部分可能另外要來思考所謂的貧窮線的一個調整\n\n20\n00:06:59,102 --> 00:07:28,286\n那這部分需要更大的一個討論跟共識基本上站在我們的部門的角度我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮切的一個調整的一個方向好謝謝部長其實剛剛說到那個稅制的部分呢你們可以用其他的社福減核的方式就是說去查他的存款啊股票啊不動產這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去減核他是不是符合這個條件啦好謝謝部長那居住正義我們一起努力那接下來我們請警政署長\n\n21\n00:07:28,806 --> 00:07:56,469\n最後一點時間我想要問一下好因為其實這個基隆的警察衝到內特這件事情從2月1號到現在已經快兩個月了可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚我覺得我們警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告據說假設現在警察接到一個報案說房東說有一個租客他的租約到期還沒有搬走那警察到現場去溝通協調但是租客沒有搬走請問警察可以直接退門而入嗎\n\n22\n00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:18,859\n我想這個涉及到公權力執行當然不能這樣子處理那請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了基隆的警察剛回覆給我的資料喔的報告是說市政府召開會議的他說他去協助交通處嗎可以這樣子嗎他的協助是破門而入嗎他第一個去打開門\n\n23\n00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:46,376\n他們給我的資料是說不是他們去打開的是由市政府的聘請的所將來打開的這種說法你可以接受嗎署長當然這個後來有提告啦那檢察官那邊再做一個偵查我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度啦不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序產權建議是一回事但是警察的職權也是一回事我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責並且檢討好嗎好\n\n24\n00:08:48,277 --> 00:08:48,718\n謝謝黃捷委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8985\t10527\t好謝謝主席我們請內政部長再請您部長\n18418\t28083\t首先我想請教這個社會住宅的部分因為其實我身邊有非常多的跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋的怎麼樣我們到底居住權的落實如何\n32105\t47455\t那其實看一下過去我們台灣的資料從2016年其實當時的秀宅大概只有7200戶但是呢到了2023年現在已經快12萬戶了那當然加上準備要興建的總共20萬戶其實是漲了非常非常多倍\n47995\t48015\t〔記者訪問〕\n73580\t100808\t來修正這個租賃的專法以及房地合一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等那這其實是我們過去這8年在這些居住正義上面的努力我要先予以肯定那只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多啊大家就會討論說那這個租金怎麼樣那入住的條件怎麼樣所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節更具體的部分讓青年朋友知道說接下來我想要申請\n101348\t130303\t社宅我想要入住社宅這些租金我能不能夠負擔得起那我接下來要跟部長討論的就是說現在啊我們內政部的社宅的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式那其實沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度可是我知道內政部在上個月其實跟各縣市有開會就是說我們還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式那其實現在台灣有\n131164\t139812\t憲事有開始進行到這個分級收費的制度我想請教的是我們內政部有考慮要做嗎如果沒有是為什麼\n142470\t159821\t謝謝委員的指教我想目前有用這個所謂所得收入來分級租金的大概有三個城市第一個是臺北跟桃園另外新北的話是在上個月他們才要開始做\n162262\t186936\t不過在這個執行這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題就是包括比如說在臺北市他的一個實際上運用社宅的這個民眾大概有73%他的所得是在這個中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下但是實際上有這個中低收入或者低收入戶身份的只有15%這個落差非常的大\n187617\t202839\t所以這個是一個蠻大的一個問題也就是說資源會有一些挫折我們目前有新的一個方案就是因為大家關心的是說新的社債出來之後到時候用新的租金去算會不會更高\n203280\t232135\t這一點請大家放心因為我們未來新的方案是會新的設宅但是用10年中古屋的租金來做為計算的基準然後另外再加打折那另外打折的折數也比之前在進步增加還低另外是原本5折的部分會降低到4.5折到3折所以會比之前的租金的水準還要再更降低這一點請大家放心\n232475\t252592\t好謝謝部長這就是我想要知道的很感謝現在我們內政部願意再進行這個分級收費的調整因為大家真的蠻擔心說如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式大家不一定能夠負擔得起對因為大家擔心說現在新房子會用新的價錢我們是用10年中古屋來算\n253252\t275536\t謝謝部長那其實這個因為其實現在大家在說這個其實你剛剛提到那種方案說就是他雖然是用這個低收入戶的身份去報的但是其實他實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶那就是這個落差其實就是一種會有所謂的假窮人出現啦我知道內政部的擔憂可是因為其實現在所得稅的資料我知道你們看這個所得稅資料裡面是可能會用因為他的\n280737\t285781\t業務執行業務所得利息收入或者是註定所得或是產產交易的所得的討論的情況導致說這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入嗎那其實我想要講的是其實有其他的例子例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋的支出的特別扣除額他都有20%以下的門檻也就是說其實其他的例子來看這個你們還是有辦法去盡量的\n306937\t324447\t找到他是不是所謂的真的需要協助的這個對象那因為其實社宅他的目的就是說我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度所以我希望的是接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人\n324807\t347717\t因為其實我看了一下就是以臺北這個民伦社宅的例子這個因見不遠啊臺北民伦社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的一個設計因為裡面我看到說他其實弱勢假設我們的收入一戶他可能低收入只有兩萬多左右可是如果我們國際的可負擔租金的\n348417\t375273\t的所得比只有30%那其實他的這個負擔所得比是50%到70%也就是說對於弱勢來說他是完全沒有辦法支付的所以我希望說這樣的情況不會在我們中央的社宅裡面出現然後這個更細的分級制度裡面也一定要來訂定所以新的這個方案也希望接下來我們內政部趕快公告然後讓大家知道說我們是真的有辦法去符合這個照顧到弱勢的\n376693\t397646\t我用20秒跟你回復一下,第一個我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的這個精神,那所以我們在這個新的方案的時候其實將這個負擔率從原本的30%降到20%,所以我們是朝這個方向在努力,當然這個因為台灣推動社會主宰時間說實在還短,所以我們需要\n398246\t416720\t一步一步的朝那個方向去努力那第二個我們必須要承認現在的科稅的制度所呈現出來的資料的確是有蠻大的一個問題那第三呢就是所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的一個照顧這部分可能另外要來思考所謂的貧窮線的一個調整\n419102\t448286\t那這部分需要更大的一個討論跟共識基本上站在我們的部門的角度我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮切的一個調整的一個方向好謝謝部長其實剛剛說到那個稅制的部分呢你們可以用其他的社福減核的方式就是說去查他的存款啊股票啊不動產這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去減核他是不是符合這個條件啦好謝謝部長那居住正義我們一起努力那接下來我們請警政署長\n448806\t476469\t最後一點時間我想要問一下好因為其實這個基隆的警察衝到內特這件事情從2月1號到現在已經快兩個月了可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚我覺得我們警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告據說假設現在警察接到一個報案說房東說有一個租客他的租約到期還沒有搬走那警察到現場去溝通協調但是租客沒有搬走請問警察可以直接退門而入嗎\n478680\t498859\t我想這個涉及到公權力執行當然不能這樣子處理那請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了基隆的警察剛回覆給我的資料喔的報告是說市政府召開會議的他說他去協助交通處嗎可以這樣子嗎他的協助是破門而入嗎他第一個去打開門\n500700\t526376\t他們給我的資料是說不是他們去打開的是由市政府的聘請的所將來打開的這種說法你可以接受嗎署長當然這個後來有提告啦那檢察官那邊再做一個偵查我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度啦不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序產權建議是一回事但是警察的職權也是一回事我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責並且檢討好嗎好\n528277\t528718\t謝謝黃捷委員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們請內政部長再請您部長\n首先我想請教這個社會住宅的部分因為其實我身邊有非常多的跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋的怎麼樣我們到底居住權的落實如何\n那其實看一下過去我們台灣的資料從2016年其實當時的秀宅大概只有7200戶但是呢到了2023年現在已經快12萬戶了那當然加上準備要興建的總共20萬戶其實是漲了非常非常多倍\n〔記者訪問〕\n來修正這個租賃的專法以及房地合一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等那這其實是我們過去這8年在這些居住正義上面的努力我要先予以肯定那只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多啊大家就會討論說那這個租金怎麼樣那入住的條件怎麼樣所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節更具體的部分讓青年朋友知道說接下來我想要申請\n社宅我想要入住社宅這些租金我能不能夠負擔得起那我接下來要跟部長討論的就是說現在啊我們內政部的社宅的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式那其實沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度可是我知道內政部在上個月其實跟各縣市有開會就是說我們還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式那其實現在台灣有\n憲事有開始進行到這個分級收費的制度我想請教的是我們內政部有考慮要做嗎如果沒有是為什麼\n謝謝委員的指教我想目前有用這個所謂所得收入來分級租金的大概有三個城市第一個是臺北跟桃園另外新北的話是在上個月他們才要開始做\n不過在這個執行這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題就是包括比如說在臺北市他的一個實際上運用社宅的這個民眾大概有73%他的所得是在這個中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下但是實際上有這個中低收入或者低收入戶身份的只有15%這個落差非常的大\n所以這個是一個蠻大的一個問題也就是說資源會有一些挫折我們目前有新的一個方案就是因為大家關心的是說新的社債出來之後到時候用新的租金去算會不會更高\n這一點請大家放心因為我們未來新的方案是會新的設宅但是用10年中古屋的租金來做為計算的基準然後另外再加打折那另外打折的折數也比之前在進步增加還低另外是原本5折的部分會降低到4.5折到3折所以會比之前的租金的水準還要再更降低這一點請大家放心\n好謝謝部長這就是我想要知道的很感謝現在我們內政部願意再進行這個分級收費的調整因為大家真的蠻擔心說如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式大家不一定能夠負擔得起對因為大家擔心說現在新房子會用新的價錢我們是用10年中古屋來算\n謝謝部長那其實這個因為其實現在大家在說這個其實你剛剛提到那種方案說就是他雖然是用這個低收入戶的身份去報的但是其實他實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶那就是這個落差其實就是一種會有所謂的假窮人出現啦我知道內政部的擔憂可是因為其實現在所得稅的資料我知道你們看這個所得稅資料裡面是可能會用因為他的\n業務執行業務所得利息收入或者是註定所得或是產產交易的所得的討論的情況導致說這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入嗎那其實我想要講的是其實有其他的例子例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋的支出的特別扣除額他都有20%以下的門檻也就是說其實其他的例子來看這個你們還是有辦法去盡量的\n找到他是不是所謂的真的需要協助的這個對象那因為其實社宅他的目的就是說我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度所以我希望的是接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人\n因為其實我看了一下就是以臺北這個民伦社宅的例子這個因見不遠啊臺北民伦社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的一個設計因為裡面我看到說他其實弱勢假設我們的收入一戶他可能低收入只有兩萬多左右可是如果我們國際的可負擔租金的\n的所得比只有30%那其實他的這個負擔所得比是50%到70%也就是說對於弱勢來說他是完全沒有辦法支付的所以我希望說這樣的情況不會在我們中央的社宅裡面出現然後這個更細的分級制度裡面也一定要來訂定所以新的這個方案也希望接下來我們內政部趕快公告然後讓大家知道說我們是真的有辦法去符合這個照顧到弱勢的\n我用20秒跟你回復一下,第一個我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的這個精神,那所以我們在這個新的方案的時候其實將這個負擔率從原本的30%降到20%,所以我們是朝這個方向在努力,當然這個因為台灣推動社會主宰時間說實在還短,所以我們需要\n一步一步的朝那個方向去努力那第二個我們必須要承認現在的科稅的制度所呈現出來的資料的確是有蠻大的一個問題那第三呢就是所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的一個照顧這部分可能另外要來思考所謂的貧窮線的一個調整\n那這部分需要更大的一個討論跟共識基本上站在我們的部門的角度我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮切的一個調整的一個方向好謝謝部長其實剛剛說到那個稅制的部分呢你們可以用其他的社福減核的方式就是說去查他的存款啊股票啊不動產這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去減核他是不是符合這個條件啦好謝謝部長那居住正義我們一起努力那接下來我們請警政署長\n最後一點時間我想要問一下好因為其實這個基隆的警察衝到內特這件事情從2月1號到現在已經快兩個月了可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚我覺得我們警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告據說假設現在警察接到一個報案說房東說有一個租客他的租約到期還沒有搬走那警察到現場去溝通協調但是租客沒有搬走請問警察可以直接退門而入嗎\n我想這個涉及到公權力執行當然不能這樣子處理那請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了基隆的警察剛回覆給我的資料喔的報告是說市政府召開會議的他說他去協助交通處嗎可以這樣子嗎他的協助是破門而入嗎他第一個去打開門\n他們給我的資料是說不是他們去打開的是由市政府的聘請的所將來打開的這種說法你可以接受嗎署長當然這個後來有提告啦那檢察官那邊再做一個偵查我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度啦不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序產權建議是一回事但是警察的職權也是一回事我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責並且檢討好嗎好\n謝謝黃捷委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.985 --> 00:10.527\n好謝謝主席我們請內政部長再請您部長\n\n00:18.418 --> 00:28.083\n首先我想請教這個社會住宅的部分因為其實我身邊有非常多的跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋的怎麼樣我們到底居住權的落實如何\n\n00:32.105 --> 00:47.455\n那其實看一下過去我們台灣的資料從2016年其實當時的秀宅大概只有7200戶但是呢到了2023年現在已經快12萬戶了那當然加上準備要興建的總共20萬戶其實是漲了非常非常多倍\n\n00:47.995 --> 00:48.015\n〔記者訪問〕\n\n01:13.580 --> 01:40.808\n來修正這個租賃的專法以及房地合一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等那這其實是我們過去這8年在這些居住正義上面的努力我要先予以肯定那只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多啊大家就會討論說那這個租金怎麼樣那入住的條件怎麼樣所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節更具體的部分讓青年朋友知道說接下來我想要申請\n\n01:41.348 --> 02:10.303\n社宅我想要入住社宅這些租金我能不能夠負擔得起那我接下來要跟部長討論的就是說現在啊我們內政部的社宅的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式那其實沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度可是我知道內政部在上個月其實跟各縣市有開會就是說我們還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式那其實現在台灣有\n\n02:11.164 --> 02:19.812\n憲事有開始進行到這個分級收費的制度我想請教的是我們內政部有考慮要做嗎如果沒有是為什麼\n\n02:22.470 --> 02:39.821\n謝謝委員的指教我想目前有用這個所謂所得收入來分級租金的大概有三個城市第一個是臺北跟桃園另外新北的話是在上個月他們才要開始做\n\n02:42.262 --> 03:06.936\n不過在這個執行這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題就是包括比如說在臺北市他的一個實際上運用社宅的這個民眾大概有73%他的所得是在這個中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下但是實際上有這個中低收入或者低收入戶身份的只有15%這個落差非常的大\n\n03:07.617 --> 03:22.839\n所以這個是一個蠻大的一個問題也就是說資源會有一些挫折我們目前有新的一個方案就是因為大家關心的是說新的社債出來之後到時候用新的租金去算會不會更高\n\n03:23.280 --> 03:52.135\n這一點請大家放心因為我們未來新的方案是會新的設宅但是用10年中古屋的租金來做為計算的基準然後另外再加打折那另外打折的折數也比之前在進步增加還低另外是原本5折的部分會降低到4.5折到3折所以會比之前的租金的水準還要再更降低這一點請大家放心\n\n03:52.475 --> 04:12.592\n好謝謝部長這就是我想要知道的很感謝現在我們內政部願意再進行這個分級收費的調整因為大家真的蠻擔心說如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式大家不一定能夠負擔得起對因為大家擔心說現在新房子會用新的價錢我們是用10年中古屋來算\n\n04:13.252 --> 04:35.536\n謝謝部長那其實這個因為其實現在大家在說這個其實你剛剛提到那種方案說就是他雖然是用這個低收入戶的身份去報的但是其實他實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶那就是這個落差其實就是一種會有所謂的假窮人出現啦我知道內政部的擔憂可是因為其實現在所得稅的資料我知道你們看這個所得稅資料裡面是可能會用因為他的\n\n04:40.737 --> 04:45.781\n業務執行業務所得利息收入或者是註定所得或是產產交易的所得的討論的情況導致說這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入嗎那其實我想要講的是其實有其他的例子例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋的支出的特別扣除額他都有20%以下的門檻也就是說其實其他的例子來看這個你們還是有辦法去盡量的\n\n05:06.937 --> 05:24.447\n找到他是不是所謂的真的需要協助的這個對象那因為其實社宅他的目的就是說我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度所以我希望的是接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人\n\n05:24.807 --> 05:47.717\n因為其實我看了一下就是以臺北這個民伦社宅的例子這個因見不遠啊臺北民伦社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的一個設計因為裡面我看到說他其實弱勢假設我們的收入一戶他可能低收入只有兩萬多左右可是如果我們國際的可負擔租金的\n\n05:48.417 --> 06:15.273\n的所得比只有30%那其實他的這個負擔所得比是50%到70%也就是說對於弱勢來說他是完全沒有辦法支付的所以我希望說這樣的情況不會在我們中央的社宅裡面出現然後這個更細的分級制度裡面也一定要來訂定所以新的這個方案也希望接下來我們內政部趕快公告然後讓大家知道說我們是真的有辦法去符合這個照顧到弱勢的\n\n06:16.693 --> 06:37.646\n我用20秒跟你回復一下,第一個我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的這個精神,那所以我們在這個新的方案的時候其實將這個負擔率從原本的30%降到20%,所以我們是朝這個方向在努力,當然這個因為台灣推動社會主宰時間說實在還短,所以我們需要\n\n06:38.246 --> 06:56.720\n一步一步的朝那個方向去努力那第二個我們必須要承認現在的科稅的制度所呈現出來的資料的確是有蠻大的一個問題那第三呢就是所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的一個照顧這部分可能另外要來思考所謂的貧窮線的一個調整\n\n06:59.102 --> 07:28.286\n那這部分需要更大的一個討論跟共識基本上站在我們的部門的角度我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮切的一個調整的一個方向好謝謝部長其實剛剛說到那個稅制的部分呢你們可以用其他的社福減核的方式就是說去查他的存款啊股票啊不動產這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去減核他是不是符合這個條件啦好謝謝部長那居住正義我們一起努力那接下來我們請警政署長\n\n07:28.806 --> 07:56.469\n最後一點時間我想要問一下好因為其實這個基隆的警察衝到內特這件事情從2月1號到現在已經快兩個月了可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚我覺得我們警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告據說假設現在警察接到一個報案說房東說有一個租客他的租約到期還沒有搬走那警察到現場去溝通協調但是租客沒有搬走請問警察可以直接退門而入嗎\n\n07:58.680 --> 08:18.859\n我想這個涉及到公權力執行當然不能這樣子處理那請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了基隆的警察剛回覆給我的資料喔的報告是說市政府召開會議的他說他去協助交通處嗎可以這樣子嗎他的協助是破門而入嗎他第一個去打開門\n\n08:20.700 --> 08:46.376\n他們給我的資料是說不是他們去打開的是由市政府的聘請的所將來打開的這種說法你可以接受嗎署長當然這個後來有提告啦那檢察官那邊再做一個偵查我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度啦不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序產權建議是一回事但是警察的職權也是一回事我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責並且檢討好嗎好\n\n08:48.277 --> 08:48.718\n謝謝黃捷委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.985,"end":10.527,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請內政部長再請您部長"},{"start":18.418,"end":28.083,"text":"首先我想請教這個社會住宅的部分因為其實我身邊有非常多的跟我年紀差不多的青年朋友大家都非常關心現在到底社會住宅蓋的怎麼樣我們到底居住權的落實如何"},{"start":32.105,"end":47.455,"text":"那其實看一下過去我們台灣的資料從2016年其實當時的秀宅大概只有7200戶但是呢到了2023年現在已經快12萬戶了那當然加上準備要興建的總共20萬戶其實是漲了非常非常多倍"},{"start":47.995,"end":48.015,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":73.58,"end":100.808,"text":"來修正這個租賃的專法以及房地合一稅還有實價登錄2.0等等那這其實是我們過去這8年在這些居住正義上面的努力我要先予以肯定那只是說現在社宅蓋得越來越多啊大家就會討論說那這個租金怎麼樣那入住的條件怎麼樣所以我也希望跟部長來討論這些更細節更具體的部分讓青年朋友知道說接下來我想要申請"},{"start":101.348,"end":130.303,"text":"社宅我想要入住社宅這些租金我能不能夠負擔得起那我接下來要跟部長討論的就是說現在啊我們內政部的社宅的租金其實是用市價打八折的方式那其實沒有更細的去訂定所謂的分級收費制度可是我知道內政部在上個月其實跟各縣市有開會就是說我們還是要用維持這個市價打八折的方式那其實現在台灣有"},{"start":131.164,"end":139.812,"text":"憲事有開始進行到這個分級收費的制度我想請教的是我們內政部有考慮要做嗎如果沒有是為什麼"},{"start":142.47,"end":159.821,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想目前有用這個所謂所得收入來分級租金的大概有三個城市第一個是臺北跟桃園另外新北的話是在上個月他們才要開始做"},{"start":162.262,"end":186.936,"text":"不過在這個執行這幾年執行的過程裡面其實也發現了一些問題就是包括比如說在臺北市他的一個實際上運用社宅的這個民眾大概有73%他的所得是在這個中低收入戶或者低收入戶以下但是實際上有這個中低收入或者低收入戶身份的只有15%這個落差非常的大"},{"start":187.617,"end":202.839,"text":"所以這個是一個蠻大的一個問題也就是說資源會有一些挫折我們目前有新的一個方案就是因為大家關心的是說新的社債出來之後到時候用新的租金去算會不會更高"},{"start":203.28,"end":232.135,"text":"這一點請大家放心因為我們未來新的方案是會新的設宅但是用10年中古屋的租金來做為計算的基準然後另外再加打折那另外打折的折數也比之前在進步增加還低另外是原本5折的部分會降低到4.5折到3折所以會比之前的租金的水準還要再更降低這一點請大家放心"},{"start":232.475,"end":252.592,"text":"好謝謝部長這就是我想要知道的很感謝現在我們內政部願意再進行這個分級收費的調整因為大家真的蠻擔心說如果是照過去這種市價打八折的方式大家不一定能夠負擔得起對因為大家擔心說現在新房子會用新的價錢我們是用10年中古屋來算"},{"start":253.252,"end":275.536,"text":"謝謝部長那其實這個因為其實現在大家在說這個其實你剛剛提到那種方案說就是他雖然是用這個低收入戶的身份去報的但是其實他實際上他的收入並不是低收入戶那就是這個落差其實就是一種會有所謂的假窮人出現啦我知道內政部的擔憂可是因為其實現在所得稅的資料我知道你們看這個所得稅資料裡面是可能會用因為他的"},{"start":280.737,"end":285.781,"text":"業務執行業務所得利息收入或者是註定所得或是產產交易的所得的討論的情況導致說這個稅務沒有辦法實質反映他的收入嗎那其實我想要講的是其實有其他的例子例如說長照特別扣除額跟房屋的支出的特別扣除額他都有20%以下的門檻也就是說其實其他的例子來看這個你們還是有辦法去盡量的"},{"start":306.937,"end":324.447,"text":"找到他是不是所謂的真的需要協助的這個對象那因為其實社宅他的目的就是說我們的租金補貼要依據他的負擔能力訂定額度所以我希望的是接下來新的這個方案真的有辦法去照顧到能夠照顧到的人"},{"start":324.807,"end":347.717,"text":"因為其實我看了一下就是以臺北這個民伦社宅的例子這個因見不遠啊臺北民伦社宅真的讓人覺得這是一個沒有辦法符合當初我們社宅精神的一個設計因為裡面我看到說他其實弱勢假設我們的收入一戶他可能低收入只有兩萬多左右可是如果我們國際的可負擔租金的"},{"start":348.417,"end":375.273,"text":"的所得比只有30%那其實他的這個負擔所得比是50%到70%也就是說對於弱勢來說他是完全沒有辦法支付的所以我希望說這樣的情況不會在我們中央的社宅裡面出現然後這個更細的分級制度裡面也一定要來訂定所以新的這個方案也希望接下來我們內政部趕快公告然後讓大家知道說我們是真的有辦法去符合這個照顧到弱勢的"},{"start":376.693,"end":397.646,"text":"我用20秒跟你回復一下,第一個我非常贊成你剛剛在講的可負擔的這個精神,那所以我們在這個新的方案的時候其實將這個負擔率從原本的30%降到20%,所以我們是朝這個方向在努力,當然這個因為台灣推動社會主宰時間說實在還短,所以我們需要"},{"start":398.246,"end":416.72,"text":"一步一步的朝那個方向去努力那第二個我們必須要承認現在的科稅的制度所呈現出來的資料的確是有蠻大的一個問題那第三呢就是所謂的低薪青年還有邊緣戶的一個照顧這部分可能另外要來思考所謂的貧窮線的一個調整"},{"start":419.102,"end":448.286,"text":"那這部分需要更大的一個討論跟共識基本上站在我們的部門的角度我們是支持應該要做一些貧窮切的一個調整的一個方向好謝謝部長其實剛剛說到那個稅制的部分呢你們可以用其他的社福減核的方式就是說去查他的存款啊股票啊不動產這些其實都可以用更細的查核方式去減核他是不是符合這個條件啦好謝謝部長那居住正義我們一起努力那接下來我們請警政署長"},{"start":448.806,"end":476.469,"text":"最後一點時間我想要問一下好因為其實這個基隆的警察衝到內特這件事情從2月1號到現在已經快兩個月了可是基隆的警察還是沒有出來說個清楚我覺得我們警政署在這邊是不是可以給大家清楚的報告據說假設現在警察接到一個報案說房東說有一個租客他的租約到期還沒有搬走那警察到現場去溝通協調但是租客沒有搬走請問警察可以直接退門而入嗎"},{"start":478.68,"end":498.859,"text":"我想這個涉及到公權力執行當然不能這樣子處理那請問基隆的警察是不是這樣做了基隆的警察剛回覆給我的資料喔的報告是說市政府召開會議的他說他去協助交通處嗎可以這樣子嗎他的協助是破門而入嗎他第一個去打開門"},{"start":500.7,"end":526.376,"text":"他們給我的資料是說不是他們去打開的是由市政府的聘請的所將來打開的這種說法你可以接受嗎署長當然這個後來有提告啦那檢察官那邊再做一個偵查我覺得署長這邊也要有一個態度啦不是說讓他們進入自己的司法程序產權建議是一回事但是警察的職權也是一回事我覺得署長在這邊要予以嚴正的譴責並且檢討好嗎好"},{"start":528.277,"end":528.718,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員"}]}}}}