{"id":149983,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a5420716115c2bb96ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a6c95f145e03d1f1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:42:30 - 10:52:24","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":594,"end_time":"2024-03-18T10:52:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T10:42:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":502,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時42分）謝謝主席。部長有請。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。"],["林部長右昌：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天內政天下第一大部，事情很多，但沒關係，我們今天主要講消防的題目，其他的部分我們會用書面的方式，希望內政部好好提供資料，這樣可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就開始吧！今天是318，很多人會講這是學運的10週年，但是同時也是美福倉儲大火的2週年，2年前的此刻，這把大火還在熊熊燃燒，消防弟兄累得要命，仔細深究這場大火的成因，大概三件事情：第一叫防治不嚴謹；第二叫救災不方便；第三叫公害不賠償。所以這件事情在地方的反應：第一叫累死打火弟兄；第二叫氣死地方鄉親。所以這件事即便已經過去了2年，但本席主張這件事情應該藉由這個公案要有一個系統性的處理方式，那我想就教一下部長，部長，知不知道什麼叫做火載量？沒關係，署長要提示一下也是沒有問題的。"],["林部長右昌：我想這個請蕭署長，這個比較專業啦！可以請蕭署長說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，可以，沒有關係，那署長來回答一下什麼叫火載量。"],["主席：請蕭署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，可以燃燒的可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛！換言之，其實簡單來說就是易燃程度啦！署長知不知道相較於工廠，倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，倉儲事實上可以放很多東西，必須要看放的是什麼東西來做處理，我想委員關心的就是這裡面設備強化的情形。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，這我們等一下再問，好啦！我先回答，相較於工廠，倉儲火載量是工廠的四倍到五倍，所以它其實是遙遙領先，我們都講消防、消防，我們待會也會講消防弟兄的福利問題，但是我覺得重點是防治，防治的東西如果做得好，相對來講，你在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多，我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的。那既然倉儲是火載量的第一名，本席就非常希望針對這件事情來好好探討。除了火載量之外，我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了，你也做過地方的縣市首長，對於產業你算是瞭解，對不對？倉儲物流其實是零售業所謂的成本單位，以部長的認識，臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多，還是出租的多？"],["林部長右昌：出租的多。"],["牛委員煦庭：絕對是出租的多嘛！既然它是一個成本單位，又是出租的多，其實會造成什麼樣的問題？就是我既然蓋這個倉儲，不管它是合法也好，違章也好，我就要降低我的成本，簡單快速地去做出租，產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到倉儲空間嘛！所以造成的結構性問題就是在防火這一塊，火載量最高的東西反而在客觀實務上的狀況來講是最疏於防範的。所以這就導引到我們講美福大火這個問題，其實就是自動灑水系統的問題，當初最早的時候，剛開始有自動灑水觀念、有法規的時候做了函釋，但這個函釋其實相對寬鬆，你可能站在產業這邊來解釋，要有自動堆置的才要做灑水系統，有高度10公尺高才要做灑水系統，結果這個叫上有政策，下有對策。相對來講，這些產業就是，好啊！我就不要做自動堆置的設施，或者是說，就把這高度設定成九米八，剛剛好就可以規避這樣子的一個狀況，所以才導致美福這場大火的發生，即便它過去了2年，但我們不追蹤，這些東西都永遠不會改變。那好玩的是，這場大火發生之後，當然大家就檢討，檢討之後，現在內政部就取消了這個函釋的適用範圍，現在要從嚴處理，那從嚴處理的時候，當然也衍生了很多的問題，我們現在就簡單問一下，既然都發生這樣的事情了，你們是不是要針對相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定，而不是只用函釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間？部長，你的看法如何？"],["林部長右昌：當然，所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討，倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出；工廠的部分在今年下半年。至於細節的部分，我請蕭署長來做補充。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要補充嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員。這個問題就是委員提到的，怎麼強化倉儲及工廠的安全，這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水負載量，所以最近我們整個在檢討，倉儲的部分就誠如部長所提到，在今年上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化自動滅火系統、灑水系統的量，這上半年要處理，也就是即使既有的，我們有什麼方法，透過科技的方法，或者施工的方法來強化安全，這是第一點。另外對工廠的部分，我們在下半年會把工廠的部分做強化，目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導、協助、補助既有的場所，或者是特登場所的消防安全，這個目前也在做，預計在下半年可以把這個部分做提報，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛署長已經有講，就是灑水包含不只是設施設置的規範，還有水量，因為美福大火之後的家樂福大火，那就是水量的問題，為了要救災，還從旁邊借水，水費欠100萬，你就知道當初設計的灑水量有多麼不足，也沒有辦法阻止這個倉儲大火的發生。所以至少我今天聽到一個比較建設性的消息就是說上半年要處理好，我希望這個東西要加速進行，我的要求是這樣，第一個，規則剛性一點、嚴格一點、明確一點，不要有解釋的空間，然後及早界定，標準不能太低，確定了就好好的去執行，也許你要給倉儲業者一點時間去適應，但是該貫徹要貫徹，好不好？我們至少往這個方向對焦，可以嗎？好，謝謝署長。","再來我要講一下消防員待遇的問題，這叫作職務加給要「加成支給」，我們剛剛有講，美福大火這個案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄，事實上，我桃園打火弟兄在全國裡面一向是勤務量相對高的一群，因為我們是產業重鎮，所以我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火弟兄更好的待遇，按照現在的規定，各直轄市政府得視所屬消防單位消防勤務危險程度，以自籌經費，依下列規定另加成支給，新北市、臺北市可以加1倍，也就是從8,435加1倍變成1萬6,870；桃園、臺中、臺南、高雄可以加七成，變成1萬4,340。但這個問題是這樣，加這樣的幅度，我們認為是為德不卒，既然要加就加到位、加有感，所以不只是桃園，新北也好、臺北也好、桃園也好，我們希望要加乾脆就加好加滿，直接加1.5倍，也就是直接加到2萬1,088元。如果這個經費我們要求中央來出，你說你們要妥善研議，那也就算了，我們可以理解，但問題這是地方自籌的，縣市政府想要照顧自己的弟兄，我是希望中央在流程上，因為這個按照法規的流程好像也是要經過中央的核定。我想請問一下，我們現在已經把希望加的額度提上來了，為什麼到現在遲遲沒有下文？請部長說明一下。"],["主席：請部長還是請署長說明？"],["林部長右昌：我請署長做說明。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員垂詢。桃園市的徵詢，我們也針對它的問題，它也補充理由跟說明，同時我們徵詢其他六都的意見，最近意見大概會回來，我們會把整體的意見反映給行政院來做整個的處置。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為就本席的瞭解，現在桃園、臺北、新北都送上去了，還有哪些……"],["蕭署長煥章：還有其他三都。"],["牛委員煦庭：是六都一起檢討是不是？"],["蕭署長煥章：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：南三都還沒有進來是不是？"],["蕭署長煥章：對，我們會尊重南三都的意見，它們的意見來了以後我們會整個做處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們有沒有抓一個時間表？"],["蕭署長煥章：應該最近我們就可以報到院裡面來做提報。"],["牛委員煦庭：這件事情一樣，會後你要把詳細的時間表讓我們知道，因為桃園地方很希望趕快給桃園弟兄好一點的待遇。"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，事實上除了六都以外，還有非六都的問題，所以這個部分會整體考量。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個我理解，所以我講的是，如果這一筆錢由中央來出，你要全部蒐集、要綜合判斷、要綜合考量，那當然沒話講；但既然是縣市自籌的，那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的，對不對？所以針對這件事情為什麼卡關，預計什麼時候可以有明確的結果，你們的額度跟決定額度的理由是什麼，是不是會後請消防署跟內政部提供一個完整的說明？好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：好，謝謝委員。"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告，一句話就好。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["林部長右昌：最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊，其實裁處的單位有一些考量。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係嘛，我剛剛有講，就是時間表跟可能的考量，因為你們負責溝通嘛。"],["林部長右昌：是，我們再把資料送給委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就麻煩部長，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：是，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望要重視消防弟兄的權益，還有防治的部分要加強。今天口頭時間有限，我們先談消防。"],["林部長右昌：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：其他的部分我們用書面質詢，再請部裡好好回復，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","部長跟署長，本席建議，因為夏天馬上要到了，我們的打火兄弟在第一線，他們的權益真的要注意一下，本席希望在1個月之內你們趕快做出檢討，好不好？如果是其他各縣市，除了六都之外，其他縣市有問題的話，行政院也要來幫忙處理一下，署長，你更要幫我們的打火兄弟積極爭取，好嗎？好，謝謝。","繼續請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃珊珊","王世堅","麥玉珍","陳冠廷","林俊憲","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"149983","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149983","tool":"pyannote","id":"149983-pyannote"},"job_id":"0CnTcd1IQ9LyiT8J","queued_at":"2024-06-02 02:05:52","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-02 02:07:22","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149983"},{"time":"2024-06-02 02:07:23","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a5420716115c2bb96ccd35ab8b9884a7f32d277f564864abd8b571ebbc9e398835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-02 02:07:40","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-02 02:07:42","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-02 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00:00:08,007\n謝謝主席部長有請有請林部長\n\n2\n00:00:15,974 --> 00:00:40,732\n部長早安今天這個內政天下第一大部事情很多但沒關係我們今天主要講消防的題目其他的部分我們會用書面的方式再希望內政部好好提供資料這樣可以嗎好那就開始吧今天是318很多人會講這是學運的十週年但是這同時也是美孚倉儲大火的兩週年兩年前的此刻這把大火還在熊熊燃燒\n\n3\n00:00:41,733 --> 00:01:09,492\n那消防弟兄累得要命那仔細深究這一場大火的成因大概三件事情第一叫防治不嚴謹第二叫救災不方便第三叫公害不賠償所以這件事情在地方的反應第一叫累死打火弟兄第二叫氣死地方鄉親所以這件事即便已經過去了兩年但本席主張這件事情應該藉由這個公案我們有一個系統性的處理方式那我就想就教一下這個部長這個\n\n4\n00:01:11,933 --> 00:01:13,654\n事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量\n\n5\n00:01:30,316 --> 00:01:44,475\n對,可以燃燒的,可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛換言之就是易燃,其實簡單來說大概就是易燃程度啦那署長知不知道,就是這個相較於工廠倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍?\n\n6\n00:01:45,556 --> 00:02:14,523\n跟委員報告倉儲市場可以放很多東西啦對必須要看放的什麼東西來做處理我想委員關心就是說這裡面設備的一個強化的情形沒錯這個我們等一下再問好啦我先回答這個相較於工廠倉儲的活宅量是工廠的4倍到5倍啦所以它其實是遙遙領先嘛所以說大家針對我們都講消防消防我們待會會講消防弟兄的這個福利的問題但是我覺得重點是防治嘛防治的東西如果做得好\n\n7\n00:02:15,083 --> 00:02:39,114\n相對來講已在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的那既然倉儲是活宅量的第一名那本期就非常希望針對這件事情來好好來探討那除了活宅量之外啊這個我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了從你也做過地方的縣市首長對於產業什麼你也算是了解對不對那這個倉儲物流其實是零售業的所謂的成本單位\n\n8\n00:02:39,974 --> 00:03:05,125\n那以部長的認識啦這個臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多還是出租的多?出租的多絕對是出租的多嘛對不對那既然它是一個成本單位又是出租的多其實會造成什麼樣的問題其實就是我既然蓋這個倉儲不管它是合法的也好違章也好我就要降低我的成本簡單快速的去做出租產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到\n\n9\n00:03:06,446 --> 00:03:19,077\n的空間所以造成的結構性的問題就是在防火這一塊火災量最高的東西反而在客觀實務上的狀況來講是最疏於防範的所以這就導引到我們講美孚大火這個問題其實就是\n\n10\n00:03:20,879 --> 00:03:49,062\n自動灑水系統的問題當初最早的時候剛開始有自動灑水的觀念有法規的時候做了韓式但這個韓式其實相對寬鬆你可能站在產業這邊來解釋說我們要有自動堆置的我才要做灑水系統我有一個高度10公尺高我才要做灑水系統結果這個叫上有政策下有對策這相對來講這些產業就是我就不要做自動的堆置的設施或者是說我就把這個高度我就設定成9米8\n\n11\n00:03:50,403 --> 00:04:09,774\n剛剛好就會規避這樣子的一個狀況所以才導致了美孚這場大火的發生即便他過去兩年但我們不追蹤這些東西永遠不會改變那好玩的是這場大火發生之後當然大家就檢討檢討之後我們就要現在內政部就取消了這個韓式的適用範圍現在要重研處理那重研處理的時候當然也衍生了很多的問題我們現在就簡單問一下\n\n12\n00:04:11,155 --> 00:04:33,078\n既然都發生這樣的事情了我們是不是要針對這樣子相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定而不是只是用含釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間部長你覺得你的看法如何我想當然所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討那倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出工廠的部分在今年下半年至於細節的部分我請蕭主任來做補充\n\n13\n00:04:34,181 --> 00:04:51,395\n你還要補充嗎?是,感謝委員這個問題就是委員提到的怎麼強化倉儲跟工廠的安全那這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水的負載量水的那個量\n\n14\n00:04:51,875 --> 00:05:06,347\n所以最近我們整個在檢討倉儲的部分就是部長所提到在今年上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化它自動滅火系統燒血系統的量這上半年要處理也就即使既有的我們有什麼方法\n\n15\n00:05:07,668 --> 00:05:28,264\n通過科技的方法或者施工的方法來強化的安全是第一點那另外對工廠的部分我們在下半年會把工廠的部分怎麼做強化那目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導協助補助既有的場所或者是特登場所的消防安全這個目前在做那預計在下半年可以把這個部分做一個提報謝謝\n\n16\n00:05:29,545 --> 00:05:52,944\n剛剛處長已經有講就是灑水包含不只是設施設置的規範還有水量因為美孚大火之後的加勒孚大火那就是水量的問題這個為了要救災還從旁邊借水水費千一百萬你就知道當初設計的那個灑水量有多麼的不足你也沒有辦法阻止這個倉儲大火的發生所以至少我今天聽到一個比較建設性的消息就是說上半年要處理好我希望這個東西要加速進行我的要求是這樣\n\n17\n00:05:54,105 --> 00:06:11,457\n第一個規則剛性一點嚴格一點明確一點不要有解釋的空間然後及早界定然後標準不能太低確定了就好好的去執行也許你要給倉促業者一點時間去適應但是該貫徹要貫徹好不好我們至少往這個方向對焦可以嗎好謝謝署長再來我要講一下這個\n\n18\n00:06:13,078 --> 00:06:29,169\n消防員的待遇的問題這叫做職務加擠要加成資給我們剛剛有講美孚大火這案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄事實上我桃園打火弟兄一向就是在全國裡面勤務量相對高的一群因為我們是產業重鎮\n\n19\n00:06:30,350 --> 00:06:55,179\n那產業重症的時候我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火器弟兄更好的待遇所以按照現在的規定我們可以各自家市政府得市所屬消防單位消防情務危險程度自籌經費依下列規定這個加成這個加幾新北市台北市可以加一倍也就是從8435加一倍變成16870桃園台中台南高雄可以加7成變成14340那但是\n\n20\n00:06:59,882 --> 00:07:13,475\n這個問題是這樣加這樣子的幅度我們認為是違德不足嘛既然要加就加到位加有感所以不只是桃園啦現在新北也好台北也好桃園也好我們希望乾脆加好就加好加滿直接加1.5倍也就是直接加到這個21088元啦\n\n21\n00:07:16,098 --> 00:07:16,378\n來請部長說明還是署長\n\n22\n00:07:46,568 --> 00:08:06,697\n我請署長做說明是感謝委員垂選桃園市這個部分的爭取我們也針對他的問題他也補充他的一個理由跟說明那同時我們爭取其他六都的意見那最近意見大概回來我們會把整體的意見反映給先進委員來做整個的一個處置就本期的了解現在桃園臺北新北都送上去了嗎\n\n23\n00:08:06,977 --> 00:08:08,580\n有沒有抓一個時間表?應該最近我們就可以報到議員裡面來做一個替報\n\n24\n00:08:21,016 --> 00:08:45,513\n這個事情一樣我會後你要把那個詳細的時間表你知道我們知道嘛因為桃園的地方是很希望趕快給桃園的弟兄多好一點的待遇嘛你跟委員報告事實上六度以外還有非六度的問題啦所以這個部分可能會整體的考量跟委員報告這我理解嘛所以我講嘛如果說這筆錢由中央來出對不對那你要全部收集啊綜合判斷綜合考量那就當然當然沒有辦法可是既然是縣市自籌的那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的嘛\n\n25\n00:08:46,354 --> 00:08:48,315\n最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊其實那個財主的單位他們有一些考量\n\n26\n00:09:08,308 --> 00:09:27,857\n好沒關係嘛我剛講嘛就是說時間表跟可能的考量因為我們負責溝通嘛我們再把資料再送給委員好不好那就麻煩部長了好不好我們希望就是說消防弟兄的權益要重視還有防治的部分要加強今天口頭時間有限我們先談消防好沒有問題那其他的部分我們用書面質詢再請部裡好好回覆可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝辛苦了好非常謝謝牛煦庭委員質詢\n\n27\n00:09:28,977 --> 00:09:51,438\n部長跟署長本席建議因為馬上夏天要到了我們的打火兄弟真的在第一線他們的權益真的要注意一下本席希望在一個月之內你們趕快來做出檢討好不好那如果是其他的各縣市除了六都之外的縣市有問題的話行政院也要來幫忙處理一下署長你更要幫我們的打火兄弟來積極的爭取好嗎好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6640\t8007\t謝謝主席部長有請有請林部長\n15974\t40732\t部長早安今天這個內政天下第一大部事情很多但沒關係我們今天主要講消防的題目其他的部分我們會用書面的方式再希望內政部好好提供資料這樣可以嗎好那就開始吧今天是318很多人會講這是學運的十週年但是這同時也是美孚倉儲大火的兩週年兩年前的此刻這把大火還在熊熊燃燒\n41733\t69492\t那消防弟兄累得要命那仔細深究這一場大火的成因大概三件事情第一叫防治不嚴謹第二叫救災不方便第三叫公害不賠償所以這件事情在地方的反應第一叫累死打火弟兄第二叫氣死地方鄉親所以這件事即便已經過去了兩年但本席主張這件事情應該藉由這個公案我們有一個系統性的處理方式那我就想就教一下這個部長這個\n71933\t73654\t事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量\n90316\t104475\t對,可以燃燒的,可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛換言之就是易燃,其實簡單來說大概就是易燃程度啦那署長知不知道,就是這個相較於工廠倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍?\n105556\t134523\t跟委員報告倉儲市場可以放很多東西啦對必須要看放的什麼東西來做處理我想委員關心就是說這裡面設備的一個強化的情形沒錯這個我們等一下再問好啦我先回答這個相較於工廠倉儲的活宅量是工廠的4倍到5倍啦所以它其實是遙遙領先嘛所以說大家針對我們都講消防消防我們待會會講消防弟兄的這個福利的問題但是我覺得重點是防治嘛防治的東西如果做得好\n135083\t159114\t相對來講已在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的那既然倉儲是活宅量的第一名那本期就非常希望針對這件事情來好好來探討那除了活宅量之外啊這個我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了從你也做過地方的縣市首長對於產業什麼你也算是了解對不對那這個倉儲物流其實是零售業的所謂的成本單位\n159974\t185125\t那以部長的認識啦 這個臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多還是出租的多?出租的多 絕對是出租的多嘛 對不對那既然它是一個成本單位又是出租的多 其實會造成什麼樣的問題 其實就是我既然蓋這個倉儲不管它是合法的也好違章也好 我就要降低我的成本簡單快速的去做出租 產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到\n186446\t199077\t的空間所以造成的結構性的問題就是在防火這一塊火災量最高的東西反而在客觀實務上的狀況來講是最疏於防範的所以這就導引到我們講美孚大火這個問題其實就是\n200879\t229062\t自動灑水系統的問題當初最早的時候剛開始有自動灑水的觀念有法規的時候做了韓式但這個韓式其實相對寬鬆你可能站在產業這邊來解釋說我們要有自動堆置的我才要做灑水系統我有一個高度10公尺高我才要做灑水系統結果這個叫上有政策下有對策這相對來講這些產業就是我就不要做自動的堆置的設施或者是說我就把這個高度我就設定成9米8\n230403\t249774\t剛剛好就會規避這樣子的一個狀況所以才導致了美孚這場大火的發生即便他過去兩年但我們不追蹤這些東西永遠不會改變那好玩的是這場大火發生之後當然大家就檢討檢討之後我們就要現在內政部就取消了這個韓式的適用範圍現在要重研處理那重研處理的時候當然也衍生了很多的問題我們現在就簡單問一下\n251155\t273078\t既然都發生這樣的事情了我們是不是要針對這樣子相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定而不是只是用含釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間部長你覺得你的看法如何我想當然所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討那倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出工廠的部分在今年下半年至於細節的部分我請蕭主任來做補充\n274181\t291395\t你還要補充嗎?是,感謝委員這個問題就是委員提到的怎麼強化倉儲跟工廠的安全那這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水的負載量水的那個量\n291875\t306347\t所以最近我們整個在檢討倉儲的部分就是部長所提到在今年上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化它自動滅火系統燒血系統的量這上半年要處理也就即使既有的我們有什麼方法\n307668\t328264\t通過科技的方法或者施工的方法來強化的安全是第一點那另外對工廠的部分我們在下半年會把工廠的部分怎麼做強化那目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導協助補助既有的場所或者是特登場所的消防安全這個目前在做那預計在下半年可以把這個部分做一個提報謝謝\n329545\t352944\t剛剛處長已經有講就是灑水包含不只是設施設置的規範還有水量因為美孚大火之後的加勒孚大火那就是水量的問題這個為了要救災還從旁邊借水水費千一百萬你就知道當初設計的那個灑水量有多麼的不足你也沒有辦法阻止這個倉儲大火的發生所以至少我今天聽到一個比較建設性的消息就是說上半年要處理好我希望這個東西要加速進行我的要求是這樣\n354105\t371457\t第一個規則剛性一點嚴格一點明確一點不要有解釋的空間然後及早界定然後標準不能太低確定了就好好的去執行也許你要給倉促業者一點時間去適應但是該貫徹要貫徹好不好我們至少往這個方向對焦可以嗎好謝謝署長再來我要講一下這個\n373078\t389169\t消防員的待遇的問題這叫做職務加擠要加成資給我們剛剛有講美孚大火這案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄事實上我桃園打火弟兄一向就是在全國裡面勤務量相對高的一群因為我們是產業重鎮\n390350\t415179\t那產業重症的時候我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火器弟兄更好的待遇所以按照現在的規定我們可以各自家市政府得市所屬消防單位消防情務危險程度自籌經費依下列規定這個加成這個加幾新北市台北市可以加一倍也就是從8435加一倍變成16870桃園台中台南高雄可以加7成變成14340那但是\n419882\t433475\t這個問題是這樣加這樣子的幅度我們認為是違德不足嘛既然要加就加到位加有感所以不只是桃園啦現在新北也好台北也好桃園也好我們希望乾脆加好就加好加滿直接加1.5倍也就是直接加到這個21088元啦\n436098\t436378\t來 請部長說明還是署長\n466568\t486697\t我請署長做說明是感謝委員垂選桃園市這個部分的爭取我們也針對他的問題他也補充他的一個理由跟說明那同時我們爭取其他六都的意見那最近意見大概回來我們會把整體的意見反映給先進委員來做整個的一個處置就本期的了解現在桃園臺北新北都送上去了嗎\n486977\t488580\t有沒有抓一個時間表?應該最近我們就可以報到議員裡面來做一個替報\n501016\t525513\t這個事情一樣我會後你要把那個詳細的時間表你知道我們知道嘛因為桃園的地方是很希望趕快給桃園的弟兄多好一點的待遇嘛你跟委員報告事實上六度以外還有非六度的問題啦所以這個部分可能會整體的考量跟委員報告這我理解嘛所以我講嘛如果說這筆錢由中央來出對不對那你要全部收集啊綜合判斷綜合考量那就當然當然沒有辦法可是既然是縣市自籌的那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的嘛\n526354\t528315\t最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊 其實那個財主的單位他們有一些考量\n548308\t567857\t好沒關係嘛我剛講嘛就是說時間表跟可能的考量因為我們負責溝通嘛我們再把資料再送給委員好不好那就麻煩部長了好不好我們希望就是說消防弟兄的權益要重視還有防治的部分要加強今天口頭時間有限我們先談消防好沒有問題那其他的部分我們用書面質詢再請部裡好好回覆可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝辛苦了好非常謝謝牛煦庭委員質詢\n568977\t591438\t部長跟署長本席建議因為馬上夏天要到了我們的打火兄弟真的在第一線他們的權益真的要注意一下本席希望在一個月之內你們趕快來做出檢討好不好那如果是其他的各縣市除了六都之外的縣市有問題的話行政院也要來幫忙處理一下署長你更要幫我們的打火兄弟來積極的爭取好嗎好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席部長有請有請林部長\n部長早安今天這個內政天下第一大部事情很多但沒關係我們今天主要講消防的題目其他的部分我們會用書面的方式再希望內政部好好提供資料這樣可以嗎好那就開始吧今天是318很多人會講這是學運的十週年但是這同時也是美孚倉儲大火的兩週年兩年前的此刻這把大火還在熊熊燃燒\n那消防弟兄累得要命那仔細深究這一場大火的成因大概三件事情第一叫防治不嚴謹第二叫救災不方便第三叫公害不賠償所以這件事情在地方的反應第一叫累死打火弟兄第二叫氣死地方鄉親所以這件事即便已經過去了兩年但本席主張這件事情應該藉由這個公案我們有一個系統性的處理方式那我就想就教一下這個部長這個\n事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量\n對,可以燃燒的,可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛換言之就是易燃,其實簡單來說大概就是易燃程度啦那署長知不知道,就是這個相較於工廠倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍?\n跟委員報告倉儲市場可以放很多東西啦對必須要看放的什麼東西來做處理我想委員關心就是說這裡面設備的一個強化的情形沒錯這個我們等一下再問好啦我先回答這個相較於工廠倉儲的活宅量是工廠的4倍到5倍啦所以它其實是遙遙領先嘛所以說大家針對我們都講消防消防我們待會會講消防弟兄的這個福利的問題但是我覺得重點是防治嘛防治的東西如果做得好\n相對來講已在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的那既然倉儲是活宅量的第一名那本期就非常希望針對這件事情來好好來探討那除了活宅量之外啊這個我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了從你也做過地方的縣市首長對於產業什麼你也算是了解對不對那這個倉儲物流其實是零售業的所謂的成本單位\n那以部長的認識啦 這個臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多還是出租的多?出租的多 絕對是出租的多嘛 對不對那既然它是一個成本單位又是出租的多 其實會造成什麼樣的問題 其實就是我既然蓋這個倉儲不管它是合法的也好違章也好 我就要降低我的成本簡單快速的去做出租 產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到\n的空間所以造成的結構性的問題就是在防火這一塊火災量最高的東西反而在客觀實務上的狀況來講是最疏於防範的所以這就導引到我們講美孚大火這個問題其實就是\n自動灑水系統的問題當初最早的時候剛開始有自動灑水的觀念有法規的時候做了韓式但這個韓式其實相對寬鬆你可能站在產業這邊來解釋說我們要有自動堆置的我才要做灑水系統我有一個高度10公尺高我才要做灑水系統結果這個叫上有政策下有對策這相對來講這些產業就是我就不要做自動的堆置的設施或者是說我就把這個高度我就設定成9米8\n剛剛好就會規避這樣子的一個狀況所以才導致了美孚這場大火的發生即便他過去兩年但我們不追蹤這些東西永遠不會改變那好玩的是這場大火發生之後當然大家就檢討檢討之後我們就要現在內政部就取消了這個韓式的適用範圍現在要重研處理那重研處理的時候當然也衍生了很多的問題我們現在就簡單問一下\n既然都發生這樣的事情了我們是不是要針對這樣子相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定而不是只是用含釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間部長你覺得你的看法如何我想當然所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討那倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出工廠的部分在今年下半年至於細節的部分我請蕭主任來做補充\n你還要補充嗎?是,感謝委員這個問題就是委員提到的怎麼強化倉儲跟工廠的安全那這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水的負載量水的那個量\n所以最近我們整個在檢討倉儲的部分就是部長所提到在今年上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化它自動滅火系統燒血系統的量這上半年要處理也就即使既有的我們有什麼方法\n通過科技的方法或者施工的方法來強化的安全是第一點那另外對工廠的部分我們在下半年會把工廠的部分怎麼做強化那目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導協助補助既有的場所或者是特登場所的消防安全這個目前在做那預計在下半年可以把這個部分做一個提報謝謝\n剛剛處長已經有講就是灑水包含不只是設施設置的規範還有水量因為美孚大火之後的加勒孚大火那就是水量的問題這個為了要救災還從旁邊借水水費千一百萬你就知道當初設計的那個灑水量有多麼的不足你也沒有辦法阻止這個倉儲大火的發生所以至少我今天聽到一個比較建設性的消息就是說上半年要處理好我希望這個東西要加速進行我的要求是這樣\n第一個規則剛性一點嚴格一點明確一點不要有解釋的空間然後及早界定然後標準不能太低確定了就好好的去執行也許你要給倉促業者一點時間去適應但是該貫徹要貫徹好不好我們至少往這個方向對焦可以嗎好謝謝署長再來我要講一下這個\n消防員的待遇的問題這叫做職務加擠要加成資給我們剛剛有講美孚大火這案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄事實上我桃園打火弟兄一向就是在全國裡面勤務量相對高的一群因為我們是產業重鎮\n那產業重症的時候我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火器弟兄更好的待遇所以按照現在的規定我們可以各自家市政府得市所屬消防單位消防情務危險程度自籌經費依下列規定這個加成這個加幾新北市台北市可以加一倍也就是從8435加一倍變成16870桃園台中台南高雄可以加7成變成14340那但是\n這個問題是這樣加這樣子的幅度我們認為是違德不足嘛既然要加就加到位加有感所以不只是桃園啦現在新北也好台北也好桃園也好我們希望乾脆加好就加好加滿直接加1.5倍也就是直接加到這個21088元啦\n來 請部長說明還是署長\n我請署長做說明是感謝委員垂選桃園市這個部分的爭取我們也針對他的問題他也補充他的一個理由跟說明那同時我們爭取其他六都的意見那最近意見大概回來我們會把整體的意見反映給先進委員來做整個的一個處置就本期的了解現在桃園臺北新北都送上去了嗎\n有沒有抓一個時間表?應該最近我們就可以報到議員裡面來做一個替報\n這個事情一樣我會後你要把那個詳細的時間表你知道我們知道嘛因為桃園的地方是很希望趕快給桃園的弟兄多好一點的待遇嘛你跟委員報告事實上六度以外還有非六度的問題啦所以這個部分可能會整體的考量跟委員報告這我理解嘛所以我講嘛如果說這筆錢由中央來出對不對那你要全部收集啊綜合判斷綜合考量那就當然當然沒有辦法可是既然是縣市自籌的那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的嘛\n最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊 其實那個財主的單位他們有一些考量\n好沒關係嘛我剛講嘛就是說時間表跟可能的考量因為我們負責溝通嘛我們再把資料再送給委員好不好那就麻煩部長了好不好我們希望就是說消防弟兄的權益要重視還有防治的部分要加強今天口頭時間有限我們先談消防好沒有問題那其他的部分我們用書面質詢再請部裡好好回覆可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝辛苦了好非常謝謝牛煦庭委員質詢\n部長跟署長本席建議因為馬上夏天要到了我們的打火兄弟真的在第一線他們的權益真的要注意一下本席希望在一個月之內你們趕快來做出檢討好不好那如果是其他的各縣市除了六都之外的縣市有問題的話行政院也要來幫忙處理一下署長你更要幫我們的打火兄弟來積極的爭取好嗎好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.640 --> 00:08.007\n謝謝主席部長有請有請林部長\n\n00:15.974 --> 00:40.732\n部長早安今天這個內政天下第一大部事情很多但沒關係我們今天主要講消防的題目其他的部分我們會用書面的方式再希望內政部好好提供資料這樣可以嗎好那就開始吧今天是318很多人會講這是學運的十週年但是這同時也是美孚倉儲大火的兩週年兩年前的此刻這把大火還在熊熊燃燒\n\n00:41.733 --> 01:09.492\n那消防弟兄累得要命那仔細深究這一場大火的成因大概三件事情第一叫防治不嚴謹第二叫救災不方便第三叫公害不賠償所以這件事情在地方的反應第一叫累死打火弟兄第二叫氣死地方鄉親所以這件事即便已經過去了兩年但本席主張這件事情應該藉由這個公案我們有一個系統性的處理方式那我就想就教一下這個部長這個\n\n01:11.933 --> 01:13.654\n事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量\n\n01:30.316 --> 01:44.475\n對,可以燃燒的,可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛換言之就是易燃,其實簡單來說大概就是易燃程度啦那署長知不知道,就是這個相較於工廠倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍?\n\n01:45.556 --> 02:14.523\n跟委員報告倉儲市場可以放很多東西啦對必須要看放的什麼東西來做處理我想委員關心就是說這裡面設備的一個強化的情形沒錯這個我們等一下再問好啦我先回答這個相較於工廠倉儲的活宅量是工廠的4倍到5倍啦所以它其實是遙遙領先嘛所以說大家針對我們都講消防消防我們待會會講消防弟兄的這個福利的問題但是我覺得重點是防治嘛防治的東西如果做得好\n\n02:15.083 --> 02:39.114\n相對來講已在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的那既然倉儲是活宅量的第一名那本期就非常希望針對這件事情來好好來探討那除了活宅量之外啊這個我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了從你也做過地方的縣市首長對於產業什麼你也算是了解對不對那這個倉儲物流其實是零售業的所謂的成本單位\n\n02:39.974 --> 03:05.125\n那以部長的認識啦這個臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多還是出租的多?出租的多絕對是出租的多嘛對不對那既然它是一個成本單位又是出租的多其實會造成什麼樣的問題其實就是我既然蓋這個倉儲不管它是合法的也好違章也好我就要降低我的成本簡單快速的去做出租產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到\n\n03:06.446 --> 03:19.077\n的空間所以造成的結構性的問題就是在防火這一塊火災量最高的東西反而在客觀實務上的狀況來講是最疏於防範的所以這就導引到我們講美孚大火這個問題其實就是\n\n03:20.879 --> 03:49.062\n自動灑水系統的問題當初最早的時候剛開始有自動灑水的觀念有法規的時候做了韓式但這個韓式其實相對寬鬆你可能站在產業這邊來解釋說我們要有自動堆置的我才要做灑水系統我有一個高度10公尺高我才要做灑水系統結果這個叫上有政策下有對策這相對來講這些產業就是我就不要做自動的堆置的設施或者是說我就把這個高度我就設定成9米8\n\n03:50.403 --> 04:09.774\n剛剛好就會規避這樣子的一個狀況所以才導致了美孚這場大火的發生即便他過去兩年但我們不追蹤這些東西永遠不會改變那好玩的是這場大火發生之後當然大家就檢討檢討之後我們就要現在內政部就取消了這個韓式的適用範圍現在要重研處理那重研處理的時候當然也衍生了很多的問題我們現在就簡單問一下\n\n04:11.155 --> 04:33.078\n既然都發生這樣的事情了我們是不是要針對這樣子相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定而不是只是用含釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間部長你覺得你的看法如何我想當然所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討那倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出工廠的部分在今年下半年至於細節的部分我請蕭主任來做補充\n\n04:34.181 --> 04:51.395\n你還要補充嗎?是,感謝委員這個問題就是委員提到的怎麼強化倉儲跟工廠的安全那這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水的負載量水的那個量\n\n04:51.875 --> 05:06.347\n所以最近我們整個在檢討倉儲的部分就是部長所提到在今年上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化它自動滅火系統燒血系統的量這上半年要處理也就即使既有的我們有什麼方法\n\n05:07.668 --> 05:28.264\n通過科技的方法或者施工的方法來強化的安全是第一點那另外對工廠的部分我們在下半年會把工廠的部分怎麼做強化那目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導協助補助既有的場所或者是特登場所的消防安全這個目前在做那預計在下半年可以把這個部分做一個提報謝謝\n\n05:29.545 --> 05:52.944\n剛剛處長已經有講就是灑水包含不只是設施設置的規範還有水量因為美孚大火之後的加勒孚大火那就是水量的問題這個為了要救災還從旁邊借水水費千一百萬你就知道當初設計的那個灑水量有多麼的不足你也沒有辦法阻止這個倉儲大火的發生所以至少我今天聽到一個比較建設性的消息就是說上半年要處理好我希望這個東西要加速進行我的要求是這樣\n\n05:54.105 --> 06:11.457\n第一個規則剛性一點嚴格一點明確一點不要有解釋的空間然後及早界定然後標準不能太低確定了就好好的去執行也許你要給倉促業者一點時間去適應但是該貫徹要貫徹好不好我們至少往這個方向對焦可以嗎好謝謝署長再來我要講一下這個\n\n06:13.078 --> 06:29.169\n消防員的待遇的問題這叫做職務加擠要加成資給我們剛剛有講美孚大火這案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄事實上我桃園打火弟兄一向就是在全國裡面勤務量相對高的一群因為我們是產業重鎮\n\n06:30.350 --> 06:55.179\n那產業重症的時候我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火器弟兄更好的待遇所以按照現在的規定我們可以各自家市政府得市所屬消防單位消防情務危險程度自籌經費依下列規定這個加成這個加幾新北市台北市可以加一倍也就是從8435加一倍變成16870桃園台中台南高雄可以加7成變成14340那但是\n\n06:59.882 --> 07:13.475\n這個問題是這樣加這樣子的幅度我們認為是違德不足嘛既然要加就加到位加有感所以不只是桃園啦現在新北也好台北也好桃園也好我們希望乾脆加好就加好加滿直接加1.5倍也就是直接加到這個21088元啦\n\n07:16.098 --> 07:16.378\n來請部長說明還是署長\n\n07:46.568 --> 08:06.697\n我請署長做說明是感謝委員垂選桃園市這個部分的爭取我們也針對他的問題他也補充他的一個理由跟說明那同時我們爭取其他六都的意見那最近意見大概回來我們會把整體的意見反映給先進委員來做整個的一個處置就本期的了解現在桃園臺北新北都送上去了嗎\n\n08:06.977 --> 08:08.580\n有沒有抓一個時間表?應該最近我們就可以報到議員裡面來做一個替報\n\n08:21.016 --> 08:45.513\n這個事情一樣我會後你要把那個詳細的時間表你知道我們知道嘛因為桃園的地方是很希望趕快給桃園的弟兄多好一點的待遇嘛你跟委員報告事實上六度以外還有非六度的問題啦所以這個部分可能會整體的考量跟委員報告這我理解嘛所以我講嘛如果說這筆錢由中央來出對不對那你要全部收集啊綜合判斷綜合考量那就當然當然沒有辦法可是既然是縣市自籌的那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的嘛\n\n08:46.354 --> 08:48.315\n最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊其實那個財主的單位他們有一些考量\n\n09:08.308 --> 09:27.857\n好沒關係嘛我剛講嘛就是說時間表跟可能的考量因為我們負責溝通嘛我們再把資料再送給委員好不好那就麻煩部長了好不好我們希望就是說消防弟兄的權益要重視還有防治的部分要加強今天口頭時間有限我們先談消防好沒有問題那其他的部分我們用書面質詢再請部裡好好回覆可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝辛苦了好非常謝謝牛煦庭委員質詢\n\n09:28.977 --> 09:51.438\n部長跟署長本席建議因為馬上夏天要到了我們的打火兄弟真的在第一線他們的權益真的要注意一下本席希望在一個月之內你們趕快來做出檢討好不好那如果是其他的各縣市除了六都之外的縣市有問題的話行政院也要來幫忙處理一下署長你更要幫我們的打火兄弟來積極的爭取好嗎好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.64,"end":8.007,"text":"謝謝主席部長有請有請林部長"},{"start":15.974,"end":40.732,"text":"部長早安今天這個內政天下第一大部事情很多但沒關係我們今天主要講消防的題目其他的部分我們會用書面的方式再希望內政部好好提供資料這樣可以嗎好那就開始吧今天是318很多人會講這是學運的十週年但是這同時也是美孚倉儲大火的兩週年兩年前的此刻這把大火還在熊熊燃燒"},{"start":41.733,"end":69.492,"text":"那消防弟兄累得要命那仔細深究這一場大火的成因大概三件事情第一叫防治不嚴謹第二叫救災不方便第三叫公害不賠償所以這件事情在地方的反應第一叫累死打火弟兄第二叫氣死地方鄉親所以這件事即便已經過去了兩年但本席主張這件事情應該藉由這個公案我們有一個系統性的處理方式那我就想就教一下這個部長這個"},{"start":71.933,"end":73.654,"text":"事實上就是整個場所裡面可以燃燒的總量"},{"start":90.316,"end":104.475,"text":"對,可以燃燒的,可燃物完全燃燒釋放的熱能嘛換言之就是易燃,其實簡單來說大概就是易燃程度啦那署長知不知道,就是這個相較於工廠倉儲的火載量大概是一般工廠的幾倍?"},{"start":105.556,"end":134.523,"text":"跟委員報告倉儲市場可以放很多東西啦對必須要看放的什麼東西來做處理我想委員關心就是說這裡面設備的一個強化的情形沒錯這個我們等一下再問好啦我先回答這個相較於工廠倉儲的活宅量是工廠的4倍到5倍啦所以它其實是遙遙領先嘛所以說大家針對我們都講消防消防我們待會會講消防弟兄的這個福利的問題但是我覺得重點是防治嘛防治的東西如果做得好"},{"start":135.083,"end":159.114,"text":"相對來講已在救災的成本等等其實就會降下來很多我相信這才是政府需要達成的目的那既然倉儲是活宅量的第一名那本期就非常希望針對這件事情來好好來探討那除了活宅量之外啊這個我想這一點部長應該就可以回答了從你也做過地方的縣市首長對於產業什麼你也算是了解對不對那這個倉儲物流其實是零售業的所謂的成本單位"},{"start":159.974,"end":185.125,"text":"那以部長的認識啦 這個臺灣大部分的倉儲是自有的多還是出租的多?出租的多 絕對是出租的多嘛 對不對那既然它是一個成本單位又是出租的多 其實會造成什麼樣的問題 其實就是我既然蓋這個倉儲不管它是合法的也好違章也好 我就要降低我的成本簡單快速的去做出租 產業端也會希望我是用一個相對低廉的成本可以拿到"},{"start":186.446,"end":199.077,"text":"的空間所以造成的結構性的問題就是在防火這一塊火災量最高的東西反而在客觀實務上的狀況來講是最疏於防範的所以這就導引到我們講美孚大火這個問題其實就是"},{"start":200.879,"end":229.062,"text":"自動灑水系統的問題當初最早的時候剛開始有自動灑水的觀念有法規的時候做了韓式但這個韓式其實相對寬鬆你可能站在產業這邊來解釋說我們要有自動堆置的我才要做灑水系統我有一個高度10公尺高我才要做灑水系統結果這個叫上有政策下有對策這相對來講這些產業就是我就不要做自動的堆置的設施或者是說我就把這個高度我就設定成9米8"},{"start":230.403,"end":249.774,"text":"剛剛好就會規避這樣子的一個狀況所以才導致了美孚這場大火的發生即便他過去兩年但我們不追蹤這些東西永遠不會改變那好玩的是這場大火發生之後當然大家就檢討檢討之後我們就要現在內政部就取消了這個韓式的適用範圍現在要重研處理那重研處理的時候當然也衍生了很多的問題我們現在就簡單問一下"},{"start":251.155,"end":273.078,"text":"既然都發生這樣的事情了我們是不是要針對這樣子相關的消防法規有更清楚的界定而不是只是用含釋的方式去讓大家有解釋的空間部長你覺得你的看法如何我想當然所以其實我們也做了相關的檢討那倉儲的部分預計是在今年上半年會提出工廠的部分在今年下半年至於細節的部分我請蕭主任來做補充"},{"start":274.181,"end":291.395,"text":"你還要補充嗎?是,感謝委員這個問題就是委員提到的怎麼強化倉儲跟工廠的安全那這個部分在原來的消防設置標準裡面規範的情形並沒有縝密到這麼大的水的負載量水的那個量"},{"start":291.875,"end":306.347,"text":"所以最近我們整個在檢討倉儲的部分就是部長所提到在今年上半年會把倉儲裡面怎麼強化它自動滅火系統燒血系統的量這上半年要處理也就即使既有的我們有什麼方法"},{"start":307.668,"end":328.264,"text":"通過科技的方法或者施工的方法來強化的安全是第一點那另外對工廠的部分我們在下半年會把工廠的部分怎麼做強化那目前也跟經濟部來做強化怎麼輔導協助補助既有的場所或者是特登場所的消防安全這個目前在做那預計在下半年可以把這個部分做一個提報謝謝"},{"start":329.545,"end":352.944,"text":"剛剛處長已經有講就是灑水包含不只是設施設置的規範還有水量因為美孚大火之後的加勒孚大火那就是水量的問題這個為了要救災還從旁邊借水水費千一百萬你就知道當初設計的那個灑水量有多麼的不足你也沒有辦法阻止這個倉儲大火的發生所以至少我今天聽到一個比較建設性的消息就是說上半年要處理好我希望這個東西要加速進行我的要求是這樣"},{"start":354.105,"end":371.457,"text":"第一個規則剛性一點嚴格一點明確一點不要有解釋的空間然後及早界定然後標準不能太低確定了就好好的去執行也許你要給倉促業者一點時間去適應但是該貫徹要貫徹好不好我們至少往這個方向對焦可以嗎好謝謝署長再來我要講一下這個"},{"start":373.078,"end":389.169,"text":"消防員的待遇的問題這叫做職務加擠要加成資給我們剛剛有講美孚大火這案子累死我桃園的打火弟兄事實上我桃園打火弟兄一向就是在全國裡面勤務量相對高的一群因為我們是產業重鎮"},{"start":390.35,"end":415.179,"text":"那產業重症的時候我們當然希望可以給這群辛苦的打火器弟兄更好的待遇所以按照現在的規定我們可以各自家市政府得市所屬消防單位消防情務危險程度自籌經費依下列規定這個加成這個加幾新北市台北市可以加一倍也就是從8435加一倍變成16870桃園台中台南高雄可以加7成變成14340那但是"},{"start":419.882,"end":433.475,"text":"這個問題是這樣加這樣子的幅度我們認為是違德不足嘛既然要加就加到位加有感所以不只是桃園啦現在新北也好台北也好桃園也好我們希望乾脆加好就加好加滿直接加1.5倍也就是直接加到這個21088元啦"},{"start":436.098,"end":436.378,"text":"來 請部長說明還是署長"},{"start":466.568,"end":486.697,"text":"我請署長做說明是感謝委員垂選桃園市這個部分的爭取我們也針對他的問題他也補充他的一個理由跟說明那同時我們爭取其他六都的意見那最近意見大概回來我們會把整體的意見反映給先進委員來做整個的一個處置就本期的了解現在桃園臺北新北都送上去了嗎"},{"start":486.977,"end":488.58,"text":"有沒有抓一個時間表?應該最近我們就可以報到議員裡面來做一個替報"},{"start":501.016,"end":525.513,"text":"這個事情一樣我會後你要把那個詳細的時間表你知道我們知道嘛因為桃園的地方是很希望趕快給桃園的弟兄多好一點的待遇嘛你跟委員報告事實上六度以外還有非六度的問題啦所以這個部分可能會整體的考量跟委員報告這我理解嘛所以我講嘛如果說這筆錢由中央來出對不對那你要全部收集啊綜合判斷綜合考量那就當然當然沒有辦法可是既然是縣市自籌的那其實沒有什麼好拖時間的嘛"},{"start":526.354,"end":528.315,"text":"最主要的倒不一定在我們這邊 其實那個財主的單位他們有一些考量"},{"start":548.308,"end":567.857,"text":"好沒關係嘛我剛講嘛就是說時間表跟可能的考量因為我們負責溝通嘛我們再把資料再送給委員好不好那就麻煩部長了好不好我們希望就是說消防弟兄的權益要重視還有防治的部分要加強今天口頭時間有限我們先談消防好沒有問題那其他的部分我們用書面質詢再請部裡好好回覆可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝辛苦了好非常謝謝牛煦庭委員質詢"},{"start":568.977,"end":591.438,"text":"部長跟署長本席建議因為馬上夏天要到了我們的打火兄弟真的在第一線他們的權益真的要注意一下本席希望在一個月之內你們趕快來做出檢討好不好那如果是其他的各縣市除了六都之外的縣市有問題的話行政院也要來幫忙處理一下署長你更要幫我們的打火兄弟來積極的爭取好嗎好謝謝"}]}}}}