{"id":149991,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a8c4e274a72b7217b25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a60726145194e09ab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:16:35 - 11:32:58","影片長度":"00:16:23","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":983,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:32:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:16:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1078,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（11時16分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好，部長你也辛苦了！我想請教一下，這一次發生這麼重大的兒虐事件，它是在12月發生，請問你是什麼時候知道有這個事件？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是最近才知道的。"],["王委員育敏：也是看報紙，3月11號嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們同仁跟我報告的時候我才知道的。"],["王委員育敏：本席也是，我也是3月11號看到報紙之後，才知道發生這麼重大的事件。也就是說，每一個系統都會有疏漏，就是第一線的人員都知道，但是沒有向上通報，包括兒福聯盟也有同樣的問題，它第一時間都通報了政府機關，但是它沒有向上通報，連董事都不知道，所以都要看報紙才知道。我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況，保護司第一時間知道了，社家署也接獲了，但是反而高層都不知道發生這麼重大的兒虐事件，所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分。我要再次強調，發生重大兒虐事件，對於一個生命的失去，這個都是大人的責任，我們都應該要深自檢討，這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作。對於上午民進黨還做這樣的一個議事發動，干擾整個議事進行，我真的覺得高度遺憾，因為每一個人都有責任，我覺得我也有責任，部長也道歉了，大家都是想要守護孩子的人，都不希望看到這樣的事情發生，我覺得大家應該要秉持這樣的原則，事情才可以做好，部長你是不是同意大家應該往這個方向來做？"],["薛部長瑞元：的確，每一個單位其實在整個事件裡面有脫離不了的責任，但重點在於以後要怎麼樣做、怎麼樣改進，預防未來再度發生。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我們就進到專業的討論，針對整個社會安全網2.0，我看到政府也撥了407億，但是我們看到這個圖表，整個兒虐的情況其實還是維持在一個高峰。包括去年光是上半年，我們看到的兒少受虐死亡的有10件，通報的受虐案件高達2萬8,000件，我不曉得你們的年度統計出來了沒，因為你們現在好像更新的速度比較慢、找不到，如果已經統計出來，是不是可以告訴大家現在最新的數據？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於致死的案件數，112年致死的是25件，111年是14件，110年是27件。111年可能是還在疫情當中，案件數是比較少的，112年，也就是去年就回復到疫情前的案件數。"],["王委員育敏：也就是去年一整年還有發生25起兒童受虐致死的案件。所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題，雖然我們有社會安全網，但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少。當然我也知道我們很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題，這方面的惡化與此相關，但是也代表政府社會安全網的責任其實需要把這個網更張開，讓大家的力量更強大。但是我真的也覺得很可惜，看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象，就是無論是中央的部會之間，或者是中央跟地方之間，大家第一時間都會先說好像不是它的責任，但是我要講一個概念，如果要把社會安全網做好，是每一個人都把手伸出來，多伸出手就會變成一張網，但是大家如果都把手縮回來，都說不是它，那這當中當然球就會漏接，就會有問題。","所以我覺得既然是社會安全網，其實每一個單位都跑不掉，每一個都有責任，大家就認真地來看待、來檢討。但是我發現社家署跟保護司兩個單位的橫向溝通聯繫真的是出了問題，好像沒有辦法一起把這件事情做好，而是會分說這個是你的，就是分得有點太清楚，這個部長剛剛自己也講了，你要怎麼解決？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個在……"],["王委員育敏：因為簡署長和張司長其實都擔任過兒童局局長，如果是事權統一，過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題，會認為都是自己的事，但是現在因為兒童局不見了，沒有一個專責單位，然後兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的、這是我的。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣，包括地方也是這樣。"],["王委員育敏：是啊！那怎麼解決？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為地方把它分得很清楚，所以它才需要來問中央說這到底是誰的責任……"],["王委員育敏：對，所以部長我現在就請教你，你也看到了，你是大家長嘛！這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個部分的話，第一個當然是組織文化，也就是不踢皮球的組織文化必須要建立起來，不管是在中央或地方，這都是必須要去做的。第二個，這個文化建立起來之外，實際上的作為也必須要有一些機制，對於這種權責不明的事情，就要有一個機制，就往上報，如果有不明的地方就由上級來決定是由誰來處理，在地方和中央都必須要這樣做，所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講，如果不明的話就要報到我這邊來，我說了算。"],["王委員育敏：要向上通報。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我說了算。"],["王委員育敏：不可以討論就沒下文，然後就不處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個是權責不清，衛福部是整個社福的大家長，我希望部長一定要看到這個問題，然後去把它整合在一起，這個我覺得非常重要。","第二個，這次爆發事件之後，我們發現每一個系統它的訪視頻率其實都不一樣，在我整理的這張圖表看到，從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日托居家托育，其實它的強度都不一樣，訪視頻率也不一樣，這次發生的案件就是在居家家外安置裡面產生了問題。就我來看，寄養家庭其實過去施行得比較久，所以它整個的督導體系坦白講是比較完整的，第一個月是每週訪，第二個月是隔週訪，第三個月是每月一訪。我要問部長的是，同樣都是需要被安置的孩子，在寄養系統相對完整，但是在居家家外安置就相對沒有那麼嚴謹，這樣子是不是產生品質不一？孩子的安全我們怎麼去做到位？現在解方是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於這個部分，當然這些都是原則性的一些規範，但是這裡並沒有考慮到小孩子的狀況是怎麼樣，因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話，其實他個別狀況是不一的，所以有一些必須要把頻率增加，有些可能按照原來的規劃就好，要有一個制度能夠去分別，就是……"],["王委員育敏：現在的制度是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在的制度並沒有特別對哪一些經歷的……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們還要研議嗎？還是……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們會儘快地研議出來，針對一些特殊的個案、特殊背景的個案，要如何加強訪視……"],["王委員育敏：因為這件事情爆發之後，大家都說訪視的頻率要增加，我也贊成，但是訪視頻率增加的背後是社工的工作量加大。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：如果中央因為訪視頻率增加但不給更多的社工人力，我只能說這個是雪上加霜，對社工來講，你是壓垮他，因為你是加量不加價，就是一直叫他拼命去訪視，但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了，再暴增他會 burn out。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以是對特定的對象增加，並不是全盤都要增加。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個部分我要問衛福部，你們是不是準備好了？就是我希望你們要好好地去研議，因為現在安置的數量有一千一百多件，你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次，那就是兩千多件。兩千多件的個案數，一個社工大概平均是15件，你要增加好幾百位的社工，就是你有多少資源，還有社安網2.0原來的407億恐怕是沒有這一筆錢，你就是要多增加新的錢，包括社工的人數要增加多少經費，還有中央喊出來之後，地方政府可不可以跟上？還是地方在訪，不是中央在訪啊！那它有額外預算嗎？我也待過地方政府，大家都很吃緊啊！就是中央一聲令下之後，地方有沒有這個財源，還是中央可以全部買單？","另外一個是幼兒專責醫師，現在它的財源也到114年，這樣的一個計畫要不要繼續下去？所以整個的配套，當然事件發生到現在，你們可能還沒有想好，但我覺得這是一件重要的事情，我希望部長可以督促，然後這件事情是真的要做到位，而不是喊出來就好，喊出來可以喊很快，但是如果沒有到位，一樣補不了這樣的一個破網，這個是不是可以承諾好好去研議？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個是有關於增加訪視的部分，必須是針對問題，哪一些對象需要增加訪視，並不是普遍的都要增加訪視，這是第一點。第二個，委員提到專責醫師，幼兒專責醫師的計畫到今年，所以我們已經在寫下一期了，最近就會送到行政院，因為必須要編列預算。"],["王委員育敏：而且這一個部分的經費一定要到位，就像早上陳菁徽醫師也已經在講，基層的醫師對這件事情也有所顧慮，顧慮在哪裡？這個就是我下一個要講到的，爆發這麼重大的事件，大家都很難過，也很遺憾，也認為應該要檢討，但不是獵巫式的檢討，因為這一次針對社工的部分，包括上了手銬，這部分全社工界大家都非常震驚，覺得重創了整個社工的士氣，所以連醫生看了也很害怕。剛剛那個新聞是醫生說我將來如果加入這個體系，我看過的孩子萬一出事了，我是不是會被獵巫、我是不是會被嚴重的究責？所有的錯好像是他一個人要擔起來。","我覺得面對這樣的一個現象，部長，你做為整個社福的大家長，對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐，我也知道很多社工人員要在320去表達他們的權益訴求，因為在這一波當中，他們覺得整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的。我看到勞動部他們針對弱勢的勞工其實有委託法扶，它有一個專案，就是他如果有官司的問題，它其實是可以幫他的。在這一次的相關事件當中也發現社工的風險不只是人身安全，他可能會涉及到被起訴，然後後面有法律訴訟的問題，這個部分我也希望衛福部是不是可以幫所有的社工來考量到？如果他在執業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴，有一些法律訴訟的問題，是不是可以比照類似的專案去支持他們？因為社工的薪水普遍都不高，多數的社福機構其實財力也沒那麼好，萬一他們在執業過程當中產生這樣的一個風險，我們是不是也一樣可以來協助？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於這個部分，如果是屬於公部門社工的話，我們都有這樣子的機制來協助他們……"],["王委員育敏：你們有沒有委託方案？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。我們會委託一些律師，這個部分我們會來處理。但是如果是屬於私部門社工的話，接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣子的計畫，尤其是像這種比較高風險的，可能會容易出問題的這個部分，機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。接下來，我要請警政署的副署長，部長先回去休息。警政署也是整個社會安全網的一環，但是我們發現在這次事件當中，警政署在執行過程中以一個粗暴的方式，把這名社工上銬，然後也沒有做任何的處理，引發社工界大反彈，而且打擊社工的士氣。我們的社會安全網需要廣大的社工來執行，但是你們這樣一個比較粗暴的作為、不審慎的作為，卻引發整個社工界的反彈，而且重挫士氣。針對這件事情，副署長是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉，這個執行過程太粗暴、以後會改進？"],["詹副署長永茂：針對社工被上銬這個案件，其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環，大家平常合作也都非常好。這件事情在執行的過程當中，真的是忽略了應該保護當事人權益的問題、人權的問題，所以這個部分臺北市已經有調查，帶隊的這個隊長已經被處分了，我在這邊也可以當面跟社工致意，我們都是夥伴，未來我們要再繼續合作，我們會要求我們的同仁在未來的執行上面要做一個改正。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席也要求，因為的確你們是一體的，社會安全網不是社工安全網，每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助，不能因為自己執行過程的粗暴作為而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣，所以我希望警政署回去也跟……","今天也有法務部的代表，在相關案件執行的過程當中，一定要更審慎地去處理，才不會導致像這次又另外引發這麼大的一個風波，也導致社工還要上街頭來抗議。所以我希望警政署回去之後可以好好研議更細膩的處理方式，好不好？"],["詹副署長永茂：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，最後本席要說，社會安全網如何持續強化，其實每一個部門、每一個單位，大家都有責任，我也覺得衛福部的社工、相關的人員也非常地辛苦，因為所有的工作都重壓在衛福部身上。今天出席的各單位，你們也都有你們的責任，大家應該都要多出一份力，我們的社會安全網才可以更強韌，我們才可以保護住更多的孩子，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：我們請邱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"149991","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149991","tool":"pyannote","id":"149991-pyannote"},"job_id":"uY0C3s9g8oPXkfIH","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"text\": \"那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 221.633, \"end\": 222.213, \"score\": 0.564}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 222.213, \"end\": 222.373, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 222.373, \"end\": 222.393, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 222.393, \"end\": 222.553, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 222.553, \"end\": 222.633, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 222.633, \"end\": 222.793, \"score\": 0.404}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 222.793, \"end\": 222.913, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 222.913, \"end\": 223.173, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 223.173, \"end\": 223.293, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 223.293, \"end\": 223.513, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"多\", 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\"果\", \"start\": 378.584, \"end\": 378.764, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 378.764, \"end\": 378.884, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 378.884, \"end\": 379.064, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 379.064, \"end\": 379.384, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 379.384, \"end\": 379.484, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 379.484, \"end\": 379.804, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 379.804, \"end\": 379.944, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 379.944, \"end\": 379.964, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}]}, {\"start\": 382.943, \"end\": 410.458, \"text\": \"要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把它整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 382.943, \"end\": 383.143, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 383.143, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 864.079, \"end\": 864.54, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 864.54, \"end\": 864.76, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 864.76, \"end\": 865.04, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"粗\", \"start\": 865.04, \"end\": 865.28, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"暴\", \"start\": 865.28, \"end\": 865.48, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 865.48, \"end\": 865.64, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 865.64, \"end\": 866.001, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 866.001, \"end\": 866.021, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"進\"}]}, {\"start\": 869.396, \"end\": 870.941, \"text\": \"針對這個社工被上銬這個案件\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 869.396, \"end\": 869.557, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 869.557, \"end\": 869.898, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,892\n請質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請部長。部長好。部長,你也辛苦了。部長,我想請教一下,這一次發生這麼重大的惡虐事件,12月發生,那你是什麼時候知道有這個事件?\n\n2\n00:00:26,258 --> 00:00:32,668\n我最後知道還是最近才知道也是看報紙3月11號嗎?同事跟我報告的時候我才知道\n\n3\n00:00:34,816 --> 00:01:01,456\n我也是3月11日看到報紙之後才知道發生這麼重大的事件那也就是說每一個系統都會有疏漏就是第一線的人員都知道但是沒有向上通報包括衛福聯盟也有同樣的問題他第一時間都通報了政府機關但是他沒有向上通報連董事都不知道所以都要看報紙才知道那包括我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況\n\n4\n00:01:02,176 --> 00:01:26,915\n你的保護絲第一時間知道了那社家屬也接獲了但是反而高層都不知道有發生這麼重大的惡虐事件所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分我要再次強調發生重大惡虐事件這個是對於一個生命的失去這個都是大人的責任那我們應該都要深自的檢討\n\n5\n00:01:27,956 --> 00:01:57,035\n那這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作我也對於上午民進黨他還做這樣的一個議事發動干擾整個議事進行我真的覺得高度遺憾因為每一個人都有責任我覺得我有責任部長也道歉了大家都是想要守護孩子的人都不希望看到這樣的事情發生我覺得大家應該秉持這樣的一個原則我們事情才可以做好我想部長你是不是同意大家應該往這個方向來做\n\n6\n00:01:57,455 --> 00:02:10,039\n的確每一個單位其實在整個的世界裡面有脫離不了的責任但是重點就是說以後要怎麼樣做怎麼樣改進預防未來再發生那我們就進到專業的討論整個社會安全網2.0我看到政府也撥了407億但是我們如果看到這樣一個圖表整個額略的情況其實還是維持在一個高峰包括去年光是上半年我們看到的\n\n7\n00:02:26,684 --> 00:02:26,924\n王育敏議員\n\n8\n00:02:48,226 --> 00:02:54,230\n在去年這是致死的案件數那112年的話致死的是25件21年這往前一年的話是14件\n\n9\n00:03:04,878 --> 00:03:22,365\n但是在110年的話那是27件所以等於說111年可能是在還在疫情當中的話那是案件數是比較少的那112年就去年他就回復到疫情前的那個那個案件數\n\n10\n00:03:22,685 --> 00:03:40,693\n也就是說去年一整年還有發生25起就是兒童受虐致死的案件所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題代表這一個雖然我們有社會安全網但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少\n\n11\n00:03:41,633 --> 00:04:08,880\n那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家\n\n12\n00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:34,348\n第一時間都會先說好像不是我的責任但是我要講一個概念如果要把社會安全網做好是每一個人多把手伸出來多伸出手就會變成一張網但是大家如果都把手縮回來都說不是我那這當中當然球就會漏接就會有問題所以我覺得既然是社會安全網其實每一個單位都跑不掉了\n\n13\n00:04:34,588 --> 00:04:46,406\n每一個都有責任大家就認真的來看待來檢討但是我覺得中央是不是剛剛部長也講我發現社家屬跟保護司兩個單位的這個橫向的溝通聯繫真的是出了問題好像沒有辦法\n\n14\n00:04:51,636 --> 00:05:14,506\n這個一起一起把這件事情做好而是會分說這個是你的就分得有點太清楚那這個部長剛剛自己也講了你要怎麼解決因為過去兩位其實都擔任過兒童局局長如果是事權統一過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題都是我的事但是現在因為兒童局也不見了沒有一個專責單位然後就兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的這是我的\n\n15\n00:05:19,941 --> 00:05:38,600\n委員這樣子啦,我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣,包括地方也是這樣是啊,那怎麼解決?因為地方把它分得很清楚,所以他才需要來問中央說這到底是誰的對,所以部長我現在就請教你說,你也看到你是大家長嘛,這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起?對\n\n16\n00:05:39,361 --> 00:05:57,255\n所以這個部分的話第一個當然這個組織文化也就是說不踢皮球這個組織文化必須要建立起來不管是在中央地方這個都是必須去做的那第二個這個文化建立起來之外的話實際上作為必須要有一些\n\n17\n00:05:58,856 --> 00:06:19,964\n就要有一些機制所以對於這種如果權責不明的事情的話就要一個機制就往上報由上級來決定說這個是由誰來處理如果有不明的地方這個地方在中央都必須要這樣做所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講你如果不明的話你要報到我這邊來\n\n18\n00:06:22,943 --> 00:06:50,458\n要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把它整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣\n\n19\n00:06:51,198 --> 00:07:07,663\n在我整理的這張圖表從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日拖的居家托育其實它的強度都不一樣、訪視頻率也不一樣那這一次發生的案件就是在這個居家的家外安置裡面產生了問題\n\n20\n00:07:08,459 --> 00:07:29,131\n那就我來看寄養家庭其實過去施行的比較久所以他的整個的督導體系坦白講是比較完整的他是第一個月是每週訪第二個月是隔週訪第三個月是每月一訪那我要問部長就是說同樣都是需要被安置的孩子在寄養系統相對完整\n\n21\n00:07:29,531 --> 00:07:29,912\n現在解方是什麼?\n\n22\n00:07:41,370 --> 00:08:07,756\n這部分的話當然這些都是原則性的一些規範但是這裡並沒有考慮到那個小孩子的狀況是什麼樣因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話他其實他個別的狀況是不一的所以有一些必須要把這個頻率要增加有些可能按照原來的規劃就好那要有一個制度能夠去分別\n\n23\n00:08:08,616 --> 00:08:37,287\n那現在的制度是什麼?現在制度並沒有說特別對哪些經濟的...所以你們還要研議?你們還要研議嗎?還是...對,我們就是會盡快的研議出來針對一些特殊的個案的這種特殊背景的個案的話要如何加強這個法事因為這件事情爆發之後,大家都說訪視的頻率要增加,我也贊成但是訪視的頻率增加,它的背後是社工的工作量加大\n\n24\n00:08:37,947 --> 00:08:54,604\n如果中央因為訪視頻率增加不給更多的社工人力我只能說這個是雪上加霜對社工來講你是壓垮他因為你是加量不加價就是一直叫他拼命去訪視但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了\n\n25\n00:08:59,908 --> 00:09:20,701\n所以這個部分我要問衛福部是不是準備好了就是我希望你們要好好的去研議因為現在安置的數量有1100多件那你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次那就是2000多件2000多件的個案數一個社工大概平均15件你要增加好幾百位的社工\n\n26\n00:09:21,181 --> 00:09:40,980\n就是你的有多少資源還有你現在的原來的社安網的2.0、407億恐怕是沒有這筆錢你就是要多增加新的錢那這些包括社工的人數增加多少經費還有你中央喊出來之後地方政府可不可以跟上還是地方在訪不是你中央在訪\n\n27\n00:09:41,741 --> 00:09:56,041\n那他的經費他有額外預算嗎?我也待過地方政府,大家都很吃緊啊,就是中央一聲令下之後地方還有沒有這個裁員,還是中央可以全部買單?另外一個幼兒專責醫師,現在他的裁員也到114年\n\n28\n00:09:57,603 --> 00:10:21,851\n那這樣一個計畫要不要繼續下去那所以整個的配套我覺得當然事件發生到現在你們可能還沒有想好但我覺得這是一件重要的事情我希望部長你可以督促然後這件事情是真的要做到位而不是喊出來喊出來可以喊很快但是如果沒有到位一樣補不了這樣一個破網\n\n29\n00:10:23,011 --> 00:10:39,515\n這個是不是可以承諾可以好好去研議第一個有關於這個增加訪視的部分必須是在針對問題哪一些對象需要增加訪視並不是普遍的都要增加訪視這是第一點第二委員提到專責醫師又有專責醫師的計畫這到今年所以我們已經在寫\n\n30\n00:10:45,756 --> 00:11:08,037\n下一期的那我們會在最近就會送到行政院因為必須要通過分裂預算而且這個部分經費一定要到位就像早上陳金輝醫師也已經在講基層的醫師對這件事情他們也有所顧慮顧慮在哪這個就是我下一個要講的爆發這麼重大的事件大家都很難過也很遺憾也認為應該要檢討\n\n31\n00:11:09,378 --> 00:11:24,498\n但不是獵巫式的檢討因為這一次針對這個社工的部分包括上了手銬這個是全社工界大家都覺得非常的震驚就是覺得重創了整個社工的士氣\n\n32\n00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:48,489\n所以連醫生看了也很害怕剛剛那個新聞出來是醫生說那我將來若加入這個體系在我看過的孩子萬一他出事了我是不是會被獵污我是不是會被嚴重的究責就所有的錯好像他一個人要擔起來那我覺得面對這樣一個現象就是我希望這個部長你作為整個社福的大家長\n\n33\n00:11:49,349 --> 00:12:15,674\n對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐我也知道很多的社工人員他們在320其實是要去表達他們的權益訴求因為在這一波當中他們覺得這個整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的那這邊其實我看到勞動部他們針對這個弱勢的勞工他其實有委託法府他有個專案就是說他如果有官司的問題\n\n34\n00:12:16,434 --> 00:12:38,685\n他其實是可以幫他的那在這一次的相關事件當中也發現說社工的風險不只人身安全他可能會涉及到被起訴然後後面有法律訴訟的問題那這個部分我也希望是不是衛福部可以幫所有的社工來考量到如果他在職業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴有些法律訴訟的問題那是不是可以比照有類似這樣子的一個\n\n35\n00:12:41,986 --> 00:12:44,647\n這部分的話如果是屬於在公部門的這個社工的話我們都有這樣子的機制來協助那你們的委託方案有沒有\n\n36\n00:13:04,011 --> 00:13:31,878\n有,我們有,當然我們有委託一些律師,我們這個會來處理但是如果是屬於私部門的社工的話,在接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣的計畫尤其是像這種比較高風險的可能會容易出問題的這個部分的話那機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫\n\n37\n00:13:33,858 --> 00:13:59,126\n好謝謝接下來我要請警政署的副署長最後來部長先回去休息警政署也是作為整個社會安全網的一環但是我們發現在這次事件當中警政署在執行過程當中的一個粗暴的方式把這名社工上銬然後也沒有做任何的處理引發社工\n\n38\n00:14:02,345 --> 00:14:26,021\n社會安全網是需要廣大的社工來執行但是你們這樣的一個比較粗暴的作為不審慎的作為卻引發整個社工界的反彈而且重挫士氣針對這件事情副署長你是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉這個執行過程太粗暴以後會改進\n\n39\n00:14:29,396 --> 00:14:30,941\n針對這個社工被上銬這個案件\n\n40\n00:14:32,028 --> 00:14:57,124\n其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環大家平常合作也都非常好那這件事情他在執行的過程當中真的是忽略到了應該保護當事人的權益的問題人權的問題所以這個臺北市已經有調查給帶隊的這個隊長已經做處分了那我在這邊也可以當當面跟社工做一個質疑這是我們的\n\n41\n00:14:59,185 --> 00:15:08,337\n夥伴未來我們要繼續再合作那我們會再要求我們的同仁在執行未來的執行上面要做一個改正\n\n42\n00:15:09,369 --> 00:15:33,225\n好本席也要求因為的確你們是一體社會安全網不是社工安全網每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助而不是因為自己的執行過程的粗暴而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣所以我希望這個警政署回去今天也有法務部的代表在相關案件的執行的過程當中一定是要更審慎的去處理\n\n43\n00:15:35,026 --> 00:15:35,306\n社會安全網\n\n44\n00:15:52,166 --> 00:15:52,306\n主席\n\n45\n00:16:21,621 --> 00:16:24,098\n謝謝王育敏委員接下來請邱振軍委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t3892\t請質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請部長。部長好。部長,你也辛苦了。部長,我想請教一下,這一次發生這麼重大的惡虐事件,12月發生,那你是什麼時候知道有這個事件?\n26258\t32668\t我最後知道還是最近才知道也是看報紙3月11號嗎?同事跟我報告的時候我才知道\n34816\t61456\t我也是3月11日看到報紙之後才知道發生這麼重大的事件那也就是說每一個系統都會有疏漏就是第一線的人員都知道但是沒有向上通報包括衛福聯盟也有同樣的問題他第一時間都通報了政府機關但是他沒有向上通報連董事都不知道所以都要看報紙才知道那包括我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況\n62176\t86915\t你的保護絲第一時間知道了那社家屬也接獲了但是反而高層都不知道有發生這麼重大的惡虐事件所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分我要再次強調發生重大惡虐事件這個是對於一個生命的失去這個都是大人的責任那我們應該都要深自的檢討\n87956\t117035\t那這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作我也對於上午民進黨他還做這樣的一個議事發動干擾整個議事進行我真的覺得高度遺憾因為每一個人都有責任我覺得我有責任部長也道歉了大家都是想要守護孩子的人都不希望看到這樣的事情發生我覺得大家應該秉持這樣的一個原則我們事情才可以做好我想部長你是不是同意大家應該往這個方向來做\n117455\t130039\t的確每一個單位其實在整個的世界裡面有脫離不了的責任但是重點就是說以後要怎麼樣做怎麼樣改進預防未來再發生那我們就進到專業的討論整個社會安全網2.0我看到政府也撥了407億但是我們如果看到這樣一個圖表整個額略的情況其實還是維持在一個高峰包括去年光是上半年我們看到的\n146684\t146924\t王育敏議員\n168226\t174230\t在去年這是致死的案件數那112年的話致死的是25件21年這往前一年的話是14件\n184878\t202365\t但是在110年的話那是27件所以等於說111年可能是在還在疫情當中的話那是案件數是比較少的那112年就去年他就回復到疫情前的那個那個案件數\n202685\t220693\t也就是說去年一整年還有發生25起就是兒童受虐致死的案件所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題代表這一個雖然我們有社會安全網但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少\n221633\t248880\t那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家\n250040\t274348\t第一時間都會先說好像不是我的責任但是我要講一個概念如果要把社會安全網做好是每一個人多把手伸出來多伸出手就會變成一張網但是大家如果都把手縮回來都說不是我那這當中當然球就會漏接就會有問題所以我覺得既然是社會安全網其實每一個單位都跑不掉了\n274588\t286406\t每一個都有責任大家就認真的來看待來檢討但是我覺得中央是不是剛剛部長也講我發現社家屬跟保護司兩個單位的這個橫向的溝通聯繫真的是出了問題好像沒有辦法\n291636\t314506\t這個一起一起把這件事情做好而是會分說這個是你的就分得有點太清楚那這個部長剛剛自己也講了你要怎麼解決因為過去兩位其實都擔任過兒童局局長如果是事權統一過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題都是我的事但是現在因為兒童局也不見了沒有一個專責單位然後就兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的這是我的\n319941\t338600\t委員這樣子啦,我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣,包括地方也是這樣是啊,那怎麼解決?因為地方把它分得很清楚,所以他才需要來問中央說這到底是誰的對,所以部長我現在就請教你說,你也看到你是大家長嘛,這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起?對\n339361\t357255\t所以這個部分的話第一個當然這個組織文化也就是說不踢皮球這個組織文化必須要建立起來不管是在中央地方這個都是必須去做的那第二個這個文化建立起來之外的話實際上作為必須要有一些\n358856\t379964\t就要有一些機制所以對於這種如果權責不明的事情的話就要一個機制就往上報由上級來決定說這個是由誰來處理如果有不明的地方這個地方在中央都必須要這樣做所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講你如果不明的話你要報到我這邊來\n382943\t410458\t要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把它整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣\n411198\t427663\t在我整理的這張圖表從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日拖的居家托育其實它的強度都不一樣、訪視頻率也不一樣那這一次發生的案件就是在這個居家的家外安置裡面產生了問題\n428459\t449131\t那就我來看 寄養家庭其實過去施行的比較久所以他的整個的督導體系 坦白講是比較完整的他是 第一個月是每週訪 第二個月是隔週訪 第三個月是每月一訪那我要問部長就是說 同樣都是需要被安置的孩子 在寄養系統相對完整\n449531\t449912\t現在解方是什麼?\n461370\t487756\t這部分的話當然這些都是原則性的一些規範但是這裡並沒有考慮到那個小孩子的狀況是什麼樣因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話他其實他個別的狀況是不一的所以有一些必須要把這個頻率要增加有些可能按照原來的規劃就好那要有一個制度能夠去分別\n488616\t517287\t那現在的制度是什麼?現在制度並沒有說特別對哪些經濟的...所以你們還要研議?你們還要研議嗎?還是...對,我們就是會盡快的研議出來針對一些特殊的個案的這種特殊背景的個案的話要如何加強這個法事因為這件事情爆發之後,大家都說訪視的頻率要增加,我也贊成但是訪視的頻率增加,它的背後是社工的工作量加大\n517947\t534604\t如果中央因為訪視頻率增加不給更多的社工人力我只能說這個是雪上加霜對社工來講你是壓垮他因為你是加量不加價就是一直叫他拼命去訪視但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了\n539908\t560701\t所以這個部分我要問衛福部是不是準備好了就是我希望你們要好好的去研議因為現在安置的數量有1100多件那你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次那就是2000多件2000多件的個案數一個社工大概平均15件你要增加好幾百位的社工\n561181\t580980\t就是你的有多少資源還有你現在的原來的社安網的2.0、407億恐怕是沒有這筆錢你就是要多增加新的錢那這些包括社工的人數增加多少經費還有你中央喊出來之後地方政府可不可以跟上還是地方在訪不是你中央在訪\n581741\t596041\t那他的經費他有額外預算嗎?我也待過地方政府,大家都很吃緊啊,就是中央一聲令下之後地方還有沒有這個裁員,還是中央可以全部買單?另外一個幼兒專責醫師,現在他的裁員也到114年\n597603\t621851\t那這樣一個計畫要不要繼續下去那所以整個的配套我覺得當然事件發生到現在你們可能還沒有想好但我覺得這是一件重要的事情我希望部長你可以督促然後這件事情是真的要做到位而不是喊出來喊出來可以喊很快但是如果沒有到位一樣補不了這樣一個破網\n623011\t639515\t這個是不是可以承諾可以好好去研議第一個有關於這個增加訪視的部分必須是在針對問題哪一些對象需要增加訪視並不是普遍的都要增加訪視這是第一點第二委員提到專責醫師又有專責醫師的計畫這到今年所以我們已經在寫\n645756\t668037\t下一期的那我們會在最近就會送到行政院因為必須要通過分裂預算而且這個部分經費一定要到位就像早上陳金輝醫師也已經在講基層的醫師對這件事情他們也有所顧慮顧慮在哪這個就是我下一個要講的爆發這麼重大的事件大家都很難過也很遺憾也認為應該要檢討\n669378\t684498\t但不是獵巫式的檢討因為這一次針對這個社工的部分包括上了手銬這個是全社工界大家都覺得非常的震驚就是覺得重創了整個社工的士氣\n685760\t708489\t所以連醫生看了也很害怕剛剛那個新聞出來是醫生說那我將來若加入這個體系在我看過的孩子萬一他出事了我是不是會被獵污我是不是會被嚴重的究責就所有的錯好像他一個人要擔起來那我覺得面對這樣一個現象就是我希望這個部長你作為整個社福的大家長\n709349\t735674\t對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐我也知道很多的社工人員他們在320其實是要去表達他們的權益訴求因為在這一波當中他們覺得這個整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的那這邊其實我看到勞動部他們針對這個弱勢的勞工他其實有委託法府他有個專案就是說他如果有官司的問題\n736434\t758685\t他其實是可以幫他的那在這一次的相關事件當中也發現說社工的風險不只人身安全他可能會涉及到被起訴然後後面有法律訴訟的問題那這個部分我也希望是不是衛福部可以幫所有的社工來考量到如果他在職業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴有些法律訴訟的問題那是不是可以比照有類似這樣子的一個\n761986\t764647\t這部分的話如果是屬於在公部門的這個社工的話我們都有這樣子的機制來協助那你們的委託方案有沒有\n784011\t811878\t有,我們有,當然我們有委託一些律師,我們這個會來處理但是如果是屬於私部門的社工的話,在接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣的計畫尤其是像這種比較高風險的可能會容易出問題的這個部分的話那機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫\n813858\t839126\t好 謝謝接下來我要請警政署的副署長最後來部長先回去休息警政署也是作為整個社會安全網的一環但是我們發現在這次事件當中警政署在執行過程當中的一個粗暴的方式把這名社工上銬然後也沒有做任何的處理引發社工\n842345\t866021\t社會安全網是需要廣大的社工來執行但是你們這樣的一個比較粗暴的作為不審慎的作為卻引發整個社工界的反彈而且重挫士氣針對這件事情副署長你是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉這個執行過程太粗暴以後會改進\n869396\t870941\t針對這個社工被上銬這個案件\n872028\t897124\t其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環大家平常合作也都非常好那這件事情他在執行的過程當中真的是忽略到了應該保護當事人的權益的問題人權的問題所以這個臺北市已經有調查給帶隊的這個隊長已經做處分了那我在這邊也可以當當面跟社工做一個質疑這是我們的\n899185\t908337\t夥伴未來我們要繼續再合作那我們會再要求我們的同仁在執行未來的執行上面要做一個改正\n909369\t933225\t好本席也要求因為的確你們是一體社會安全網不是社工安全網每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助而不是因為自己的執行過程的粗暴而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣所以我希望這個警政署回去今天也有法務部的代表在相關案件的執行的過程當中一定是要更審慎的去處理\n935026\t935306\t社會安全網\n952166\t952306\t主席\n981621\t984098\t謝謝王育敏委員接下來請邱振軍委員\n","txt":"請質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請部長。部長好。部長,你也辛苦了。部長,我想請教一下,這一次發生這麼重大的惡虐事件,12月發生,那你是什麼時候知道有這個事件?\n我最後知道還是最近才知道也是看報紙3月11號嗎?同事跟我報告的時候我才知道\n我也是3月11日看到報紙之後才知道發生這麼重大的事件那也就是說每一個系統都會有疏漏就是第一線的人員都知道但是沒有向上通報包括衛福聯盟也有同樣的問題他第一時間都通報了政府機關但是他沒有向上通報連董事都不知道所以都要看報紙才知道那包括我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況\n你的保護絲第一時間知道了那社家屬也接獲了但是反而高層都不知道有發生這麼重大的惡虐事件所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分我要再次強調發生重大惡虐事件這個是對於一個生命的失去這個都是大人的責任那我們應該都要深自的檢討\n那這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作我也對於上午民進黨他還做這樣的一個議事發動干擾整個議事進行我真的覺得高度遺憾因為每一個人都有責任我覺得我有責任部長也道歉了大家都是想要守護孩子的人都不希望看到這樣的事情發生我覺得大家應該秉持這樣的一個原則我們事情才可以做好我想部長你是不是同意大家應該往這個方向來做\n的確每一個單位其實在整個的世界裡面有脫離不了的責任但是重點就是說以後要怎麼樣做怎麼樣改進預防未來再發生那我們就進到專業的討論整個社會安全網2.0我看到政府也撥了407億但是我們如果看到這樣一個圖表整個額略的情況其實還是維持在一個高峰包括去年光是上半年我們看到的\n王育敏議員\n在去年這是致死的案件數那112年的話致死的是25件21年這往前一年的話是14件\n但是在110年的話那是27件所以等於說111年可能是在還在疫情當中的話那是案件數是比較少的那112年就去年他就回復到疫情前的那個那個案件數\n也就是說去年一整年還有發生25起就是兒童受虐致死的案件所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題代表這一個雖然我們有社會安全網但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少\n那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家\n第一時間都會先說好像不是我的責任但是我要講一個概念如果要把社會安全網做好是每一個人多把手伸出來多伸出手就會變成一張網但是大家如果都把手縮回來都說不是我那這當中當然球就會漏接就會有問題所以我覺得既然是社會安全網其實每一個單位都跑不掉了\n每一個都有責任大家就認真的來看待來檢討但是我覺得中央是不是剛剛部長也講我發現社家屬跟保護司兩個單位的這個橫向的溝通聯繫真的是出了問題好像沒有辦法\n這個一起一起把這件事情做好而是會分說這個是你的就分得有點太清楚那這個部長剛剛自己也講了你要怎麼解決因為過去兩位其實都擔任過兒童局局長如果是事權統一過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題都是我的事但是現在因為兒童局也不見了沒有一個專責單位然後就兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的這是我的\n委員這樣子啦,我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣,包括地方也是這樣是啊,那怎麼解決?因為地方把它分得很清楚,所以他才需要來問中央說這到底是誰的對,所以部長我現在就請教你說,你也看到你是大家長嘛,這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起?對\n所以這個部分的話第一個當然這個組織文化也就是說不踢皮球這個組織文化必須要建立起來不管是在中央地方這個都是必須去做的那第二個這個文化建立起來之外的話實際上作為必須要有一些\n就要有一些機制所以對於這種如果權責不明的事情的話就要一個機制就往上報由上級來決定說這個是由誰來處理如果有不明的地方這個地方在中央都必須要這樣做所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講你如果不明的話你要報到我這邊來\n要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把它整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣\n在我整理的這張圖表從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日拖的居家托育其實它的強度都不一樣、訪視頻率也不一樣那這一次發生的案件就是在這個居家的家外安置裡面產生了問題\n那就我來看 寄養家庭其實過去施行的比較久所以他的整個的督導體系 坦白講是比較完整的他是 第一個月是每週訪 第二個月是隔週訪 第三個月是每月一訪那我要問部長就是說 同樣都是需要被安置的孩子 在寄養系統相對完整\n現在解方是什麼?\n這部分的話當然這些都是原則性的一些規範但是這裡並沒有考慮到那個小孩子的狀況是什麼樣因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話他其實他個別的狀況是不一的所以有一些必須要把這個頻率要增加有些可能按照原來的規劃就好那要有一個制度能夠去分別\n那現在的制度是什麼?現在制度並沒有說特別對哪些經濟的...所以你們還要研議?你們還要研議嗎?還是...對,我們就是會盡快的研議出來針對一些特殊的個案的這種特殊背景的個案的話要如何加強這個法事因為這件事情爆發之後,大家都說訪視的頻率要增加,我也贊成但是訪視的頻率增加,它的背後是社工的工作量加大\n如果中央因為訪視頻率增加不給更多的社工人力我只能說這個是雪上加霜對社工來講你是壓垮他因為你是加量不加價就是一直叫他拼命去訪視但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了\n所以這個部分我要問衛福部是不是準備好了就是我希望你們要好好的去研議因為現在安置的數量有1100多件那你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次那就是2000多件2000多件的個案數一個社工大概平均15件你要增加好幾百位的社工\n就是你的有多少資源還有你現在的原來的社安網的2.0、407億恐怕是沒有這筆錢你就是要多增加新的錢那這些包括社工的人數增加多少經費還有你中央喊出來之後地方政府可不可以跟上還是地方在訪不是你中央在訪\n那他的經費他有額外預算嗎?我也待過地方政府,大家都很吃緊啊,就是中央一聲令下之後地方還有沒有這個裁員,還是中央可以全部買單?另外一個幼兒專責醫師,現在他的裁員也到114年\n那這樣一個計畫要不要繼續下去那所以整個的配套我覺得當然事件發生到現在你們可能還沒有想好但我覺得這是一件重要的事情我希望部長你可以督促然後這件事情是真的要做到位而不是喊出來喊出來可以喊很快但是如果沒有到位一樣補不了這樣一個破網\n這個是不是可以承諾可以好好去研議第一個有關於這個增加訪視的部分必須是在針對問題哪一些對象需要增加訪視並不是普遍的都要增加訪視這是第一點第二委員提到專責醫師又有專責醫師的計畫這到今年所以我們已經在寫\n下一期的那我們會在最近就會送到行政院因為必須要通過分裂預算而且這個部分經費一定要到位就像早上陳金輝醫師也已經在講基層的醫師對這件事情他們也有所顧慮顧慮在哪這個就是我下一個要講的爆發這麼重大的事件大家都很難過也很遺憾也認為應該要檢討\n但不是獵巫式的檢討因為這一次針對這個社工的部分包括上了手銬這個是全社工界大家都覺得非常的震驚就是覺得重創了整個社工的士氣\n所以連醫生看了也很害怕剛剛那個新聞出來是醫生說那我將來若加入這個體系在我看過的孩子萬一他出事了我是不是會被獵污我是不是會被嚴重的究責就所有的錯好像他一個人要擔起來那我覺得面對這樣一個現象就是我希望這個部長你作為整個社福的大家長\n對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐我也知道很多的社工人員他們在320其實是要去表達他們的權益訴求因為在這一波當中他們覺得這個整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的那這邊其實我看到勞動部他們針對這個弱勢的勞工他其實有委託法府他有個專案就是說他如果有官司的問題\n他其實是可以幫他的那在這一次的相關事件當中也發現說社工的風險不只人身安全他可能會涉及到被起訴然後後面有法律訴訟的問題那這個部分我也希望是不是衛福部可以幫所有的社工來考量到如果他在職業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴有些法律訴訟的問題那是不是可以比照有類似這樣子的一個\n這部分的話如果是屬於在公部門的這個社工的話我們都有這樣子的機制來協助那你們的委託方案有沒有\n有,我們有,當然我們有委託一些律師,我們這個會來處理但是如果是屬於私部門的社工的話,在接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣的計畫尤其是像這種比較高風險的可能會容易出問題的這個部分的話那機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫\n好 謝謝接下來我要請警政署的副署長最後來部長先回去休息警政署也是作為整個社會安全網的一環但是我們發現在這次事件當中警政署在執行過程當中的一個粗暴的方式把這名社工上銬然後也沒有做任何的處理引發社工\n社會安全網是需要廣大的社工來執行但是你們這樣的一個比較粗暴的作為不審慎的作為卻引發整個社工界的反彈而且重挫士氣針對這件事情副署長你是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉這個執行過程太粗暴以後會改進\n針對這個社工被上銬這個案件\n其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環大家平常合作也都非常好那這件事情他在執行的過程當中真的是忽略到了應該保護當事人的權益的問題人權的問題所以這個臺北市已經有調查給帶隊的這個隊長已經做處分了那我在這邊也可以當當面跟社工做一個質疑這是我們的\n夥伴未來我們要繼續再合作那我們會再要求我們的同仁在執行未來的執行上面要做一個改正\n好本席也要求因為的確你們是一體社會安全網不是社工安全網每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助而不是因為自己的執行過程的粗暴而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣所以我希望這個警政署回去今天也有法務部的代表在相關案件的執行的過程當中一定是要更審慎的去處理\n社會安全網\n主席\n謝謝王育敏委員接下來請邱振軍委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:03.892\n請質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請部長。部長好。部長,你也辛苦了。部長,我想請教一下,這一次發生這麼重大的惡虐事件,12月發生,那你是什麼時候知道有這個事件?\n\n00:26.258 --> 00:32.668\n我最後知道還是最近才知道也是看報紙3月11號嗎?同事跟我報告的時候我才知道\n\n00:34.816 --> 01:01.456\n我也是3月11日看到報紙之後才知道發生這麼重大的事件那也就是說每一個系統都會有疏漏就是第一線的人員都知道但是沒有向上通報包括衛福聯盟也有同樣的問題他第一時間都通報了政府機關但是他沒有向上通報連董事都不知道所以都要看報紙才知道那包括我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況\n\n01:02.176 --> 01:26.915\n你的保護絲第一時間知道了那社家屬也接獲了但是反而高層都不知道有發生這麼重大的惡虐事件所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分我要再次強調發生重大惡虐事件這個是對於一個生命的失去這個都是大人的責任那我們應該都要深自的檢討\n\n01:27.956 --> 01:57.035\n那這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作我也對於上午民進黨他還做這樣的一個議事發動干擾整個議事進行我真的覺得高度遺憾因為每一個人都有責任我覺得我有責任部長也道歉了大家都是想要守護孩子的人都不希望看到這樣的事情發生我覺得大家應該秉持這樣的一個原則我們事情才可以做好我想部長你是不是同意大家應該往這個方向來做\n\n01:57.455 --> 02:10.039\n的確每一個單位其實在整個的世界裡面有脫離不了的責任但是重點就是說以後要怎麼樣做怎麼樣改進預防未來再發生那我們就進到專業的討論整個社會安全網2.0我看到政府也撥了407億但是我們如果看到這樣一個圖表整個額略的情況其實還是維持在一個高峰包括去年光是上半年我們看到的\n\n02:26.684 --> 02:26.924\n王育敏議員\n\n02:48.226 --> 02:54.230\n在去年這是致死的案件數那112年的話致死的是25件21年這往前一年的話是14件\n\n03:04.878 --> 03:22.365\n但是在110年的話那是27件所以等於說111年可能是在還在疫情當中的話那是案件數是比較少的那112年就去年他就回復到疫情前的那個那個案件數\n\n03:22.685 --> 03:40.693\n也就是說去年一整年還有發生25起就是兒童受虐致死的案件所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題代表這一個雖然我們有社會安全網但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少\n\n03:41.633 --> 04:08.880\n那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家\n\n04:10.040 --> 04:34.348\n第一時間都會先說好像不是我的責任但是我要講一個概念如果要把社會安全網做好是每一個人多把手伸出來多伸出手就會變成一張網但是大家如果都把手縮回來都說不是我那這當中當然球就會漏接就會有問題所以我覺得既然是社會安全網其實每一個單位都跑不掉了\n\n04:34.588 --> 04:46.406\n每一個都有責任大家就認真的來看待來檢討但是我覺得中央是不是剛剛部長也講我發現社家屬跟保護司兩個單位的這個橫向的溝通聯繫真的是出了問題好像沒有辦法\n\n04:51.636 --> 05:14.506\n這個一起一起把這件事情做好而是會分說這個是你的就分得有點太清楚那這個部長剛剛自己也講了你要怎麼解決因為過去兩位其實都擔任過兒童局局長如果是事權統一過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題都是我的事但是現在因為兒童局也不見了沒有一個專責單位然後就兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的這是我的\n\n05:19.941 --> 05:38.600\n委員這樣子啦,我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣,包括地方也是這樣是啊,那怎麼解決?因為地方把它分得很清楚,所以他才需要來問中央說這到底是誰的對,所以部長我現在就請教你說,你也看到你是大家長嘛,這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起?對\n\n05:39.361 --> 05:57.255\n所以這個部分的話第一個當然這個組織文化也就是說不踢皮球這個組織文化必須要建立起來不管是在中央地方這個都是必須去做的那第二個這個文化建立起來之外的話實際上作為必須要有一些\n\n05:58.856 --> 06:19.964\n就要有一些機制所以對於這種如果權責不明的事情的話就要一個機制就往上報由上級來決定說這個是由誰來處理如果有不明的地方這個地方在中央都必須要這樣做所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講你如果不明的話你要報到我這邊來\n\n06:22.943 --> 06:50.458\n要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把它整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣\n\n06:51.198 --> 07:07.663\n在我整理的這張圖表從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日拖的居家托育其實它的強度都不一樣、訪視頻率也不一樣那這一次發生的案件就是在這個居家的家外安置裡面產生了問題\n\n07:08.459 --> 07:29.131\n那就我來看寄養家庭其實過去施行的比較久所以他的整個的督導體系坦白講是比較完整的他是第一個月是每週訪第二個月是隔週訪第三個月是每月一訪那我要問部長就是說同樣都是需要被安置的孩子在寄養系統相對完整\n\n07:29.531 --> 07:29.912\n現在解方是什麼?\n\n07:41.370 --> 08:07.756\n這部分的話當然這些都是原則性的一些規範但是這裡並沒有考慮到那個小孩子的狀況是什麼樣因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話他其實他個別的狀況是不一的所以有一些必須要把這個頻率要增加有些可能按照原來的規劃就好那要有一個制度能夠去分別\n\n08:08.616 --> 08:37.287\n那現在的制度是什麼?現在制度並沒有說特別對哪些經濟的...所以你們還要研議?你們還要研議嗎?還是...對,我們就是會盡快的研議出來針對一些特殊的個案的這種特殊背景的個案的話要如何加強這個法事因為這件事情爆發之後,大家都說訪視的頻率要增加,我也贊成但是訪視的頻率增加,它的背後是社工的工作量加大\n\n08:37.947 --> 08:54.604\n如果中央因為訪視頻率增加不給更多的社工人力我只能說這個是雪上加霜對社工來講你是壓垮他因為你是加量不加價就是一直叫他拼命去訪視但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了\n\n08:59.908 --> 09:20.701\n所以這個部分我要問衛福部是不是準備好了就是我希望你們要好好的去研議因為現在安置的數量有1100多件那你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次那就是2000多件2000多件的個案數一個社工大概平均15件你要增加好幾百位的社工\n\n09:21.181 --> 09:40.980\n就是你的有多少資源還有你現在的原來的社安網的2.0、407億恐怕是沒有這筆錢你就是要多增加新的錢那這些包括社工的人數增加多少經費還有你中央喊出來之後地方政府可不可以跟上還是地方在訪不是你中央在訪\n\n09:41.741 --> 09:56.041\n那他的經費他有額外預算嗎?我也待過地方政府,大家都很吃緊啊,就是中央一聲令下之後地方還有沒有這個裁員,還是中央可以全部買單?另外一個幼兒專責醫師,現在他的裁員也到114年\n\n09:57.603 --> 10:21.851\n那這樣一個計畫要不要繼續下去那所以整個的配套我覺得當然事件發生到現在你們可能還沒有想好但我覺得這是一件重要的事情我希望部長你可以督促然後這件事情是真的要做到位而不是喊出來喊出來可以喊很快但是如果沒有到位一樣補不了這樣一個破網\n\n10:23.011 --> 10:39.515\n這個是不是可以承諾可以好好去研議第一個有關於這個增加訪視的部分必須是在針對問題哪一些對象需要增加訪視並不是普遍的都要增加訪視這是第一點第二委員提到專責醫師又有專責醫師的計畫這到今年所以我們已經在寫\n\n10:45.756 --> 11:08.037\n下一期的那我們會在最近就會送到行政院因為必須要通過分裂預算而且這個部分經費一定要到位就像早上陳金輝醫師也已經在講基層的醫師對這件事情他們也有所顧慮顧慮在哪這個就是我下一個要講的爆發這麼重大的事件大家都很難過也很遺憾也認為應該要檢討\n\n11:09.378 --> 11:24.498\n但不是獵巫式的檢討因為這一次針對這個社工的部分包括上了手銬這個是全社工界大家都覺得非常的震驚就是覺得重創了整個社工的士氣\n\n11:25.760 --> 11:48.489\n所以連醫生看了也很害怕剛剛那個新聞出來是醫生說那我將來若加入這個體系在我看過的孩子萬一他出事了我是不是會被獵污我是不是會被嚴重的究責就所有的錯好像他一個人要擔起來那我覺得面對這樣一個現象就是我希望這個部長你作為整個社福的大家長\n\n11:49.349 --> 12:15.674\n對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐我也知道很多的社工人員他們在320其實是要去表達他們的權益訴求因為在這一波當中他們覺得這個整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的那這邊其實我看到勞動部他們針對這個弱勢的勞工他其實有委託法府他有個專案就是說他如果有官司的問題\n\n12:16.434 --> 12:38.685\n他其實是可以幫他的那在這一次的相關事件當中也發現說社工的風險不只人身安全他可能會涉及到被起訴然後後面有法律訴訟的問題那這個部分我也希望是不是衛福部可以幫所有的社工來考量到如果他在職業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴有些法律訴訟的問題那是不是可以比照有類似這樣子的一個\n\n12:41.986 --> 12:44.647\n這部分的話如果是屬於在公部門的這個社工的話我們都有這樣子的機制來協助那你們的委託方案有沒有\n\n13:04.011 --> 13:31.878\n有,我們有,當然我們有委託一些律師,我們這個會來處理但是如果是屬於私部門的社工的話,在接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣的計畫尤其是像這種比較高風險的可能會容易出問題的這個部分的話那機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫\n\n13:33.858 --> 13:59.126\n好謝謝接下來我要請警政署的副署長最後來部長先回去休息警政署也是作為整個社會安全網的一環但是我們發現在這次事件當中警政署在執行過程當中的一個粗暴的方式把這名社工上銬然後也沒有做任何的處理引發社工\n\n14:02.345 --> 14:26.021\n社會安全網是需要廣大的社工來執行但是你們這樣的一個比較粗暴的作為不審慎的作為卻引發整個社工界的反彈而且重挫士氣針對這件事情副署長你是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉這個執行過程太粗暴以後會改進\n\n14:29.396 --> 14:30.941\n針對這個社工被上銬這個案件\n\n14:32.028 --> 14:57.124\n其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環大家平常合作也都非常好那這件事情他在執行的過程當中真的是忽略到了應該保護當事人的權益的問題人權的問題所以這個臺北市已經有調查給帶隊的這個隊長已經做處分了那我在這邊也可以當當面跟社工做一個質疑這是我們的\n\n14:59.185 --> 15:08.337\n夥伴未來我們要繼續再合作那我們會再要求我們的同仁在執行未來的執行上面要做一個改正\n\n15:09.369 --> 15:33.225\n好本席也要求因為的確你們是一體社會安全網不是社工安全網每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助而不是因為自己的執行過程的粗暴而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣所以我希望這個警政署回去今天也有法務部的代表在相關案件的執行的過程當中一定是要更審慎的去處理\n\n15:35.026 --> 15:35.306\n社會安全網\n\n15:52.166 --> 15:52.306\n主席\n\n16:21.621 --> 16:24.098\n謝謝王育敏委員接下來請邱振軍委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":3.892,"text":"請質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請部長。部長好。部長,你也辛苦了。部長,我想請教一下,這一次發生這麼重大的惡虐事件,12月發生,那你是什麼時候知道有這個事件?"},{"start":26.258,"end":32.668,"text":"我最後知道還是最近才知道也是看報紙3月11號嗎?同事跟我報告的時候我才知道"},{"start":34.816,"end":61.456,"text":"我也是3月11日看到報紙之後才知道發生這麼重大的事件那也就是說每一個系統都會有疏漏就是第一線的人員都知道但是沒有向上通報包括衛福聯盟也有同樣的問題他第一時間都通報了政府機關但是他沒有向上通報連董事都不知道所以都要看報紙才知道那包括我看到衛福部也是這樣的情況"},{"start":62.176,"end":86.915,"text":"你的保護絲第一時間知道了那社家屬也接獲了但是反而高層都不知道有發生這麼重大的惡虐事件所以我覺得每一個系統都有需要去認真檢討的部分我要再次強調發生重大惡虐事件這個是對於一個生命的失去這個都是大人的責任那我們應該都要深自的檢討"},{"start":87.956,"end":117.035,"text":"那這件事情真的不需要做任何的政治操作我也對於上午民進黨他還做這樣的一個議事發動干擾整個議事進行我真的覺得高度遺憾因為每一個人都有責任我覺得我有責任部長也道歉了大家都是想要守護孩子的人都不希望看到這樣的事情發生我覺得大家應該秉持這樣的一個原則我們事情才可以做好我想部長你是不是同意大家應該往這個方向來做"},{"start":117.455,"end":130.039,"text":"的確每一個單位其實在整個的世界裡面有脫離不了的責任但是重點就是說以後要怎麼樣做怎麼樣改進預防未來再發生那我們就進到專業的討論整個社會安全網2.0我看到政府也撥了407億但是我們如果看到這樣一個圖表整個額略的情況其實還是維持在一個高峰包括去年光是上半年我們看到的"},{"start":146.684,"end":146.924,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":168.226,"end":174.23,"text":"在去年這是致死的案件數那112年的話致死的是25件21年這往前一年的話是14件"},{"start":184.878,"end":202.365,"text":"但是在110年的話那是27件所以等於說111年可能是在還在疫情當中的話那是案件數是比較少的那112年就去年他就回復到疫情前的那個那個案件數"},{"start":202.685,"end":220.693,"text":"也就是說去年一整年還有發生25起就是兒童受虐致死的案件所以我覺得我們今天要討論的真的是整個系統性的問題代表這一個雖然我們有社會安全網但是發生的案件數並沒有有效的下降跟減少"},{"start":221.633,"end":248.88,"text":"那這個當然我也知道跟我們的很多家庭其實出現了很多的問題這個惡化這個會有相關但是也代表我們政府的社會安全網的責任其實是更需要把這個網更張開讓大家力量更強大但是我真的也覺得很可惜看到在這次事件發生之後的確有踢皮球的現象就是無論是中央的部會之間或者是中央跟地方之間大家"},{"start":250.04,"end":274.348,"text":"第一時間都會先說好像不是我的責任但是我要講一個概念如果要把社會安全網做好是每一個人多把手伸出來多伸出手就會變成一張網但是大家如果都把手縮回來都說不是我那這當中當然球就會漏接就會有問題所以我覺得既然是社會安全網其實每一個單位都跑不掉了"},{"start":274.588,"end":286.406,"text":"每一個都有責任大家就認真的來看待來檢討但是我覺得中央是不是剛剛部長也講我發現社家屬跟保護司兩個單位的這個橫向的溝通聯繫真的是出了問題好像沒有辦法"},{"start":291.636,"end":314.506,"text":"這個一起一起把這件事情做好而是會分說這個是你的就分得有點太清楚那這個部長剛剛自己也講了你要怎麼解決因為過去兩位其實都擔任過兒童局局長如果是事權統一過去在兒童局我相信兩位局長都不會出現這樣的一個問題都是我的事但是現在因為兒童局也不見了沒有一個專責單位然後就兩個單位業務切開之後就變成說這是你的這是我的"},{"start":319.941,"end":338.6,"text":"委員這樣子啦,我的看法是這不是只有中央這樣,包括地方也是這樣是啊,那怎麼解決?因為地方把它分得很清楚,所以他才需要來問中央說這到底是誰的對,所以部長我現在就請教你說,你也看到你是大家長嘛,這樣的問題到底要怎麼樣把它整合在一起?對"},{"start":339.361,"end":357.255,"text":"所以這個部分的話第一個當然這個組織文化也就是說不踢皮球這個組織文化必須要建立起來不管是在中央地方這個都是必須去做的那第二個這個文化建立起來之外的話實際上作為必須要有一些"},{"start":358.856,"end":379.964,"text":"就要有一些機制所以對於這種如果權責不明的事情的話就要一個機制就往上報由上級來決定說這個是由誰來處理如果有不明的地方這個地方在中央都必須要這樣做所以我也曾經跟我們同仁講你如果不明的話你要報到我這邊來"},{"start":382.943,"end":410.458,"text":"要向上通報不可以就是討論就沒下文然後就不處理好這個是權責不清我希望這個衛福部是整個社福的大家長就是一定要部長你要看到這個問題然後去把它整合在一起這個我覺得非常重要第二個這次爆發事件之後我們發現每一個系統他就是全日拖24小時安置但是他的頻率其實都不一樣"},{"start":411.198,"end":427.663,"text":"在我整理的這張圖表從寄養家庭、居家家外安置跟全日拖的居家托育其實它的強度都不一樣、訪視頻率也不一樣那這一次發生的案件就是在這個居家的家外安置裡面產生了問題"},{"start":428.459,"end":449.131,"text":"那就我來看 寄養家庭其實過去施行的比較久所以他的整個的督導體系 坦白講是比較完整的他是 第一個月是每週訪 第二個月是隔週訪 第三個月是每月一訪那我要問部長就是說 同樣都是需要被安置的孩子 在寄養系統相對完整"},{"start":449.531,"end":449.912,"text":"現在解方是什麼?"},{"start":461.37,"end":487.756,"text":"這部分的話當然這些都是原則性的一些規範但是這裡並沒有考慮到那個小孩子的狀況是什麼樣因為來自不同來源的小孩子要去做這種委託安置的話他其實他個別的狀況是不一的所以有一些必須要把這個頻率要增加有些可能按照原來的規劃就好那要有一個制度能夠去分別"},{"start":488.616,"end":517.287,"text":"那現在的制度是什麼?現在制度並沒有說特別對哪些經濟的...所以你們還要研議?你們還要研議嗎?還是...對,我們就是會盡快的研議出來針對一些特殊的個案的這種特殊背景的個案的話要如何加強這個法事因為這件事情爆發之後,大家都說訪視的頻率要增加,我也贊成但是訪視的頻率增加,它的背後是社工的工作量加大"},{"start":517.947,"end":534.604,"text":"如果中央因為訪視頻率增加不給更多的社工人力我只能說這個是雪上加霜對社工來講你是壓垮他因為你是加量不加價就是一直叫他拼命去訪視但是一個人原本的案量已經是飽和了"},{"start":539.908,"end":560.701,"text":"所以這個部分我要問衛福部是不是準備好了就是我希望你們要好好的去研議因為現在安置的數量有1100多件那你如果每一個都要增加一次或兩次那就是2000多件2000多件的個案數一個社工大概平均15件你要增加好幾百位的社工"},{"start":561.181,"end":580.98,"text":"就是你的有多少資源還有你現在的原來的社安網的2.0、407億恐怕是沒有這筆錢你就是要多增加新的錢那這些包括社工的人數增加多少經費還有你中央喊出來之後地方政府可不可以跟上還是地方在訪不是你中央在訪"},{"start":581.741,"end":596.041,"text":"那他的經費他有額外預算嗎?我也待過地方政府,大家都很吃緊啊,就是中央一聲令下之後地方還有沒有這個裁員,還是中央可以全部買單?另外一個幼兒專責醫師,現在他的裁員也到114年"},{"start":597.603,"end":621.851,"text":"那這樣一個計畫要不要繼續下去那所以整個的配套我覺得當然事件發生到現在你們可能還沒有想好但我覺得這是一件重要的事情我希望部長你可以督促然後這件事情是真的要做到位而不是喊出來喊出來可以喊很快但是如果沒有到位一樣補不了這樣一個破網"},{"start":623.011,"end":639.515,"text":"這個是不是可以承諾可以好好去研議第一個有關於這個增加訪視的部分必須是在針對問題哪一些對象需要增加訪視並不是普遍的都要增加訪視這是第一點第二委員提到專責醫師又有專責醫師的計畫這到今年所以我們已經在寫"},{"start":645.756,"end":668.037,"text":"下一期的那我們會在最近就會送到行政院因為必須要通過分裂預算而且這個部分經費一定要到位就像早上陳金輝醫師也已經在講基層的醫師對這件事情他們也有所顧慮顧慮在哪這個就是我下一個要講的爆發這麼重大的事件大家都很難過也很遺憾也認為應該要檢討"},{"start":669.378,"end":684.498,"text":"但不是獵巫式的檢討因為這一次針對這個社工的部分包括上了手銬這個是全社工界大家都覺得非常的震驚就是覺得重創了整個社工的士氣"},{"start":685.76,"end":708.489,"text":"所以連醫生看了也很害怕剛剛那個新聞出來是醫生說那我將來若加入這個體系在我看過的孩子萬一他出事了我是不是會被獵污我是不是會被嚴重的究責就所有的錯好像他一個人要擔起來那我覺得面對這樣一個現象就是我希望這個部長你作為整個社福的大家長"},{"start":709.349,"end":735.674,"text":"對於社工的體系其實應該要去支撐我也知道很多的社工人員他們在320其實是要去表達他們的權益訴求因為在這一波當中他們覺得這個整個社工的權益其實是被漠視的那這邊其實我看到勞動部他們針對這個弱勢的勞工他其實有委託法府他有個專案就是說他如果有官司的問題"},{"start":736.434,"end":758.685,"text":"他其實是可以幫他的那在這一次的相關事件當中也發現說社工的風險不只人身安全他可能會涉及到被起訴然後後面有法律訴訟的問題那這個部分我也希望是不是衛福部可以幫所有的社工來考量到如果他在職業過程當中涉及到他可能被起訴有些法律訴訟的問題那是不是可以比照有類似這樣子的一個"},{"start":761.986,"end":764.647,"text":"這部分的話如果是屬於在公部門的這個社工的話我們都有這樣子的機制來協助那你們的委託方案有沒有"},{"start":784.011,"end":811.878,"text":"有,我們有,當然我們有委託一些律師,我們這個會來處理但是如果是屬於私部門的社工的話,在接下來我們就會要求這些必須要有這樣的計畫尤其是像這種比較高風險的可能會容易出問題的這個部分的話那機構應該要提供這種法律協助的一些計畫"},{"start":813.858,"end":839.126,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我要請警政署的副署長最後來部長先回去休息警政署也是作為整個社會安全網的一環但是我們發現在這次事件當中警政署在執行過程當中的一個粗暴的方式把這名社工上銬然後也沒有做任何的處理引發社工"},{"start":842.345,"end":866.021,"text":"社會安全網是需要廣大的社工來執行但是你們這樣的一個比較粗暴的作為不審慎的作為卻引發整個社工界的反彈而且重挫士氣針對這件事情副署長你是不是願意代表警政署跟社工界的朋友說一聲抱歉這個執行過程太粗暴以後會改進"},{"start":869.396,"end":870.941,"text":"針對這個社工被上銬這個案件"},{"start":872.028,"end":897.124,"text":"其實社工跟我們警政都是網絡的一環大家平常合作也都非常好那這件事情他在執行的過程當中真的是忽略到了應該保護當事人的權益的問題人權的問題所以這個臺北市已經有調查給帶隊的這個隊長已經做處分了那我在這邊也可以當當面跟社工做一個質疑這是我們的"},{"start":899.185,"end":908.337,"text":"夥伴未來我們要繼續再合作那我們會再要求我們的同仁在執行未來的執行上面要做一個改正"},{"start":909.369,"end":933.225,"text":"好本席也要求因為的確你們是一體社會安全網不是社工安全網每一個網絡都必須進來一起協助而不是因為自己的執行過程的粗暴而打擊了另外一個團隊的士氣所以我希望這個警政署回去今天也有法務部的代表在相關案件的執行的過程當中一定是要更審慎的去處理"},{"start":935.026,"end":935.306,"text":"社會安全網"},{"start":952.166,"end":952.306,"text":"主席"},{"start":981.621,"end":984.098,"text":"謝謝王育敏委員接下來請邱振軍委員"}]}}}}