{"id":149995,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733aa3911de77f1aae2325cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a608cdbbd6f32ddafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"11:33:00 - 11:44:25","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":685,"end_time":"2024-03-18T11:44:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T11:33:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1129,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時33分）好，我們一樣請薛部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，您辛苦了！但是碰到這個問題，我還是這樣覺得啦，您還是責無旁貸，我想我們現在就針對今天會發生這樣的事情來討論，我們該怎麼樣解決，這個才是我們未來要做的事情。因為我之前在網站上看到加強社會安全網的一個廣告，我覺得有點諷刺，就是「把社會安全網的漏洞補起來，把過去安全網沒接住的人找出來」，這一句話現在看起來真的是有點刺眼，所以昨天我們看到您的報告，真的不知道你們在講什麼，不過剛剛你們有提了新的報告，所以這個部分我就不再提。那麼我們現在先討論一下，現在你們知道收養的評估機制要改、兒少法要修，是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請教部長，在修法之前，你們要地方依據什麼法律來執行？因為如果沒有弄好，我想這段期間也是一個空窗期，部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：比方說在第一點的改變，出養的評估機制目前是訂在由媒合機構來做評估，但是在還沒有修法完成之前，我們就會要求地方政府要加入這一個評估，這個就不需要有法律的規範，所以這個媒合機構仍然要去做評估，但是有兩種方式，一個就是事後，你的評估報告事後要經過社會局審查，另外一個就是你要做評估，如果需要實地去訪視的時候，社會局就必須要派員一起去做這個評估。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那中央是擔任什麼工作？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個本來就是在地方去執行，那中央政府……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你覺得地方有能力處理嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：中央就是要找地方來把這件事情講清楚，說以後我們就是要這樣做，因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情，這樣子的話……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到監察院的報告，針對這件案子，我們兒少保護的三級預防政策與業務歸由衛福部三個署負責，但是缺乏整體的連貫，現在又把這個球丟回去地方，我認為地方目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西。"],["薛部長瑞元：有，一定有這個能量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您確定？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來就有，本來就可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席在這邊建議，衛福部還是要擔起責任，雖然是他們來審核，那我們的機制在哪裡？衛福部的角色又是什麼？到時候我希望部長這邊給社會大眾一個明確的說法，好不好？不要讓外界覺得我們今天碰到問題就把責任推給地方。"],["薛部長瑞元：這不是推責任，而是本來就應該是它的責任，因為執行面就是在地方，中央的話會去做督導，每年或每半年或每季，它會把這一個相關的東西報上來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我懂部長的意思，但是我現在站在地方的立場，我跟您報告，你們要換成地方做這個出養評估，那麼地方就要生出人力。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個部分是不是會增加社工的工作量？"],["薛部長瑞元：這本來就屬於脆弱家庭，他本來就是應該要去做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：問題是現在我們的社工人員夠嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在是因為機制上面有問題，他把這些事情都丟給這個媒合機構去做，現在問題是在這裡。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以就是人手不夠嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：不一定是人手不夠，是把它推出去就對了，我講難聽一點就是這樣子啦，這不應該是這個樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得啦，我們社工的工作量會不會太大？"],["薛部長瑞元：就增加這個部分的話是不會，因為這一類的家庭叫脆弱家庭，本來他就要去做一些評估。"],["邱委員鎮軍：各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，夠不夠這個問題我們都可以再重新來談……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為憑良心講，各個地方的狀況不一樣，有些地方可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題，我想部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方，在人員不足的地方，你有什麼具體的作法嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：社安網的部分，對於人力非常的重視，所以我們定期都會做一個盤點，聽取各個縣市招募人力的問題何在，然後做出一些改善的措施。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這邊有一個想法，就是每個地方、每個地區都有鄰里長，其實鄰里長的部分，我覺得可以試著來訓練或者是邀請他們一起來上課，來協助這個部分的巡視，他不一定要做什麼，我要講的就是他不需要做到專業的部分，但是不是可以透過鄰里長這部分來協助？當地方上有類似這樣的家庭時要多多關注、多多回報，建立一套完整的機制，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：鄰里長本來就是社安網網絡的一環，但是他所負擔的責任是比較輕的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，但是因為我們是從地方起來、從基層起來，所以我發現很多鄰里長搞不清楚，他們在這方面的資訊是相對不足的，所蒐集到的資訊確實是不夠的，就算碰到也不知道該怎麼辦，針對這個部分，希望由部長這邊將安全網的網絡建立完整一點，不要讓他們空有名份卻不做事，或者是沒有人去管，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該要訓練啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：這次的保母虐童不是第一次發生的事件，風險其實是蠻高的，我們是否有從保母體系的問題進行過通盤檢討？"],["薛部長瑞元：針對保母的選擇、保母的資格、條件及訓練等等，這些本來就有，如果有需要加強，我們當然會再加強，不過我要向委員報告，通常這種加強訓練是可以針對那些可能發生疏失的案件加以防止，但是對於那種惡意、故意的案件，即使再加強訓練也沒有太大的功用，必須要是第三方或第四方加強監督，讓他不敢去做這種事情，這樣才是真正解決的辦法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得對於保母的訓練及資格的認定都應該要有一套完整的機制。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然，這個本來就有，而且如果……"],["邱委員鎮軍：訓練當然是一回事，但是在實際工作時是否會面臨到和現在同樣的問題，目前還不曉得，當然你也不曉得，所以我認為我們是不是要經常進行評估，不要讓民眾在聘請保母時就像是在抽盲盒一樣，運氣好就找到好的、運氣不好就抽到不好的，我覺得政府有必要針對這個部分做一個妥善的管理。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分當然是可以加強，也就是我剛剛提到的，平常的訓練以及考核，我們也一直都有在做，但是對於這種惡意的，特別要有一個機制來處理、預防。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部裡面會發許可給媒合機構，對不對？是從這邊申請的，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：身為委託單位，部裡面的監督管理責任除了一年檢查一次之外，三年也要評鑑一次，對不對？還有什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，我們不是委託的單位。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那是誰委託？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們是給予許可，核定它有資格做這件事情，這是由我們來核定的，但是每一個個案，社會局要交給哪一個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：既然是媒合，由你們發給許可，雖然你們不是委託單位，但執照是部裡面發的，所以你們有責任嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會定期做評鑑。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在的管理辦法是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會定期做評鑑，每年去做業務……"],["邱委員鎮軍：多久？我這樣講，除了一年檢查一次、三年評鑑一次，還有什麼嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：各種收出養案件都會有一些會議來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我的看法是這樣，這些孩子沒有父母在身旁，政府當然有責任讓這些孩子平安長大，這是我們最終的目的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：衛福部既然是主管機關，本席希望你們對於評鑑及檢查的內容要多多琢磨，讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我今天的報告就特別提到這一點，針對媒合機構的許可辦法，我們會重新再做盤點。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢。","現在開始處理臨時提案，共計有13案，請一併宣讀。"],["薛部長瑞元：報告主席，我們沒有拿到提案。"],["主席：我們先休息5分鐘，讓部長看一下。"],["蘇委員清泉：我先質詢。"],["主席：他們要看提案。"],["蘇委員清泉：聽我講就好。"],["主席：我們先休息5分鐘，讓部長看一下。","休息（11時45分）","繼續開會（11時52分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請議事人員宣讀。（參閱附錄）","一、","目前無論從任何年齡層來看，原住民族地區死亡率皆高於一般國民。以2018～2022年統計數字分析：新生兒在原住民族地區的死亡率為每千人4.67人，鄉鎮區則為每千人2.23人；若以年齡較大的15～19歲來看，原住民族地區死亡率為每10萬人58.75人，而直轄市及縣轄市則為29.79人，原住民族新生兒死亡率數字近乎一般國民之兩倍。","雖然，衛福部自民國112年11月起，開始推出全國兒童「幼兒專責醫師制度」，「幼兒專責醫師」服務內容：由醫師整合3歲前嬰幼兒常見的醫療照護項目，包括預防保健、預防接種、膽道閉鎖（大便卡）篩檢追蹤、通報轉介（牙齒塗氟、兒少保護、發展遲緩）、居家訪視等等，但應該針對原住民族地區嬰幼兒更為強化保護。","綜合以上，爰提案要求衛福部應於全國「幼兒專責醫師制度」之內，特別針對原住民地區新生兒死亡率偏高問題研擬積極改善方案，並於2個月內，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告。","提案人：盧縣一　　王育敏　　陳菁徽","二、","現行規定下，嚴格限制保母領取「托育補助」時雙方之親屬關係，彼此須為三親等以外之親屬，方得領取，否則保母僅得領取「育兒津貼」。（法源依據：《直轄市、縣（市）政府辦理未滿二歲兒童托育公共化及準公共服務作業要點》「…二、托育提供者應具備下列資格之一：(一)依兒少權法第二十六條第二項第一款、第二款規定領有居家式托育服務登記證書，且收托三親等以外幼兒並提供日間、全日、夜間之居家托育人員。）","但許多原鄉及偏遠地區因幅員遼闊，情況特殊，應予特別規範。以桃園市復興區為例，雖然於2023年10月已經設置區域內唯一一家公立托嬰機構，但因部落間距離遙遠，家長接送不易，若一概要求奔波送托，反而導致家長困擾，且父母如果自身具有保母資格，照顧自身嬰幼兒時卻僅得從「托育補助」及「育兒津貼」兩者擇一，也有違政府政策美意。","因此，爰提案要求衛福部積極與縣市政府協商，放寬限制，使此等偏遠地區下，具有保母證照家庭之父母得以同時領取「托育補助」及「育兒津貼」，並於2個月內，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告。","提案人：盧縣一　　陳菁徽　　王育敏","三、","有鑑於衛福部所提「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」報告，內容僅兩頁有關虐兒案，文中充斥「研議」、「強化」、「盡速」等空洞字眼，完全未見還原真相，釐清問題的檢討與具體做法，更未見福部負起應有的責任，且有故意混淆「司法調查」及「行政調查」之嫌；表面看似完整規範，但實際執行上卻漏洞百出，企圖甩鍋給社工、地方政府、文過飾非的報告，此種心態，恐將個案演變成系統性風暴，基此，爰建請做成決議，「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」報告應予退回，要求衛福部針對上述缺失深自檢討並提出具體改進做法，重新再送社會福利及衛生環境委員會審議。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳菁徽　　涂權吉　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿　　邱鎮軍　　廖偉翔","四、","有鑑於我國社會工作專職人數約18,628人，每人負責案件量難以負荷、每年平均發生六千件暴力對待、平均薪水又僅3.5萬，導致近三年平均流動率將近四分之一。又社工於工作過程中，易涉民、刑事糾紛或法律訴訟，動輒成為媒體新聞焦點，遭「肉搜」，違反偵查不公開或刑事訴訟法之對待。","爰要求內政部及法務部，針對執法過程中，如何保障社工個人隱私及人權，提出檢討與精進作為，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　盧縣一　　涂權吉","五、","有鑑於我國社會工作專職人數約18,628人，每人負責案件量難以負荷、每年平均發生六千件暴力對待，工作環境壓力甚鉅。惟社工平均薪水僅3.5萬，導致近三年平均流動率將近四分之一。又社工於工作過程中，涉入民、刑事法律案件，其高額訴訟成本與漫長訴訟過程，恐使社工人員難以負擔。若衛福部無法提供協助，致使社工求助無門，將嚴重打擊社會工作者士氣，影響社會安全網穩定性甚鉅。","爰要求衛福部於一個月內，參考勞動部委託法律扶助基金會之專案，提出支持社工涉訟協助機制。","提案人：王育敏　　盧縣一　　涂權吉","六、","有鑑於我國社會工作專職人數約18,628人，每人負責案件量難以負荷、平均每年需遭受六千件暴力事件對待，工作環境壓力甚鉅。惟社工平均薪水僅3.5萬，導致近三年平均流動率將近四分之一。","考量衛福部針對家外安置兒童，將增加訪視頻率，對社工人力需求將大幅且持續增加，為落實計畫並維持社工人員穩定性。爰要求衛福部於一個月內，提出增加訪視制度之詳細執行計畫、人力規劃、與預算規劃，向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　盧縣一　　涂權吉","七、","台北市一名1歲大男童剴剴（化名）遭到一對劉姓保母姊妹聯手施虐，不僅腿被打到骨折變形、指甲被拔光、牙齒被打斷，就連生殖器也遭燒到黑掉，全身體無完膚休克慘死，引起社會公憤，為預防兒童受虐情況發生，爰要求衛福部於一個月內，研議在收出養制度中，社福機構或保母應每月一次帶孩童到鄰近衛生所或社區診所進行健康檢查，健檢費用及掛號費用由政府編預算支出，每件計價，而不是健保支出。要求醫師做紀錄存檔，一發現有問題就即時通報衛福部，這樣就能早發現早處理，絕對不能再發生像剴剴這樣的悲劇。並向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出專案報告，是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","八、","案由：針對兒福聯盟社工疑似未盡探訪之責，導致孩童遭凌虐致死，媒體報導社工因長期人力不足業務繁瑣，造成在巨大案量負荷下壓縮案件的訪視時間。如遇訪視對象有意隱瞞或態度保留，及難在有限時間資源中掌握全貌。社工人力不足是全國性、制度性議題，爰建請衛福部 於一個月內依最新法規賦予社工之業務，重新盤點全國之真實社工人力需求，同時盤點「全國社會安全網計畫」目前社工缺額狀況。","提案人：涂權吉","連署人：盧縣一　　邱鎮軍　　陳菁徽","九、","案由：有鑒於民眾反應國小兒童健康檢查相關程序過於繁瑣，造成民眾不便等情形，經查證後發現，我國國小兒童健檢多由學校自行委外，並交由診所協助檢查，此健檢方法對於都市地區的國小兒童家長已有反應不便之處，對於偏鄉地區亦可能造成不小的困擾，另外關於健檢後有需要回診或適當矯治的情形，該回診率的掌握度也不足，是否有達成國民小學學生健康檢查實施辦法，基於暸解國民小學學生生長發育狀況，早期發現疾病與體格缺點，並施予矯治，且妥適安排教學活動，以增進學生健康的立法目的，不無疑義，據此基於保證兒童身體健康權益，建請衛福部及教育部於一個月內，共同瞭解現況及研議國小兒童健檢改善方案。","提案人：王正旭　　林月琴　　陳　瑩","十、","基於近期發生之劉童遭保母虐死事件，為極力防止該事件再次發生，衛生福利部檢討我國收出養的評估機制與安置問題。請衛福部立即檢討兒童出養前之照顧與評估機制，並修訂家外安置處理原則；並請衛福部針對《直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則》有關居托人員建立，應改為要求地方主管機關強制建立訪視輔導狀況良好保母名單，以照顧安置個案。前述工作請於一個月內完成。","提案人：林月琴","連署人：陳　瑩　　王正旭","十一、","基於近期發生之劉童遭保母虐死事件，為極力防止該事件再次發生，衛生福利部檢討我國收出養的評估機制與安置問題。請衛福部向兒福聯盟針對劉童兒虐致死案提供相關檢討報告，供本委員會委員審視；並於一個月內公告建立居托服務中心與媒合機構共案準則，以明確行政程序。","提案人：林月琴","連署人：陳　瑩　　王正旭","十二、","有鑑於出養男童遭保母虐死案，引起外界高度關注，更突顯社會安全網各環節出現系統性問題，衛福部初步調查，收出養媒合機構社工的訪視可能不踏實、敏感度不足或過度信賴照顧人員的良善，未來將強化社工之專業知能及對兒童虐待之敏感度與辦識能力，檢討社工例行訪視頻率等。然中央實應與地方政府充分配合，落實相關教育，調整各自角色與任務使之更臻明確。爰此，提案要求衛福部應嚴格要求地方政府落實執行督導業務，並將相關作為於一個月內以書面報告向社會福利及衛生環境委員會報告。","黃秀芳　　王正旭　　陳　瑩","十三、","鑑於兒虐涉及相當多面向，如出養男童遭保母虐死案涉及兒童出收養、兒少保護和居家托育管理三個面向，於地方局處可能由不同單位主責，國家實應將兒童相關事宜統合辦理。未免將來因缺失而延誤相關案件的處置時間，爰提案要求衛福部應將相關通報制度調整並公告，未來不論家內家外的兒童虐待事件，都需向保護司通報，以利各單位及時介入處置。","黃秀芳　　王正旭　　陳　瑩"],["主席：現在開始處理。","請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["李簡任技正中月：委員好。針對臨時提案一的部分，業務單位這邊建議將第三段第一行的「幼兒專責醫師制度」修改為「優化兒童醫療照護計畫」，並將最後一行的「專案報告」改為「書面報告」，以上。"],["主席：提案委員，可以嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：可以。"],["主席：同意，那就修正通過。"],["李簡任技正中月：謝謝委員。"],["主席：第二案有沒有意見？"],["簡署長慧娟：第二案的最後一段是不是可以建議修正為「爰提案要求衛福部研議並修正兒童及少年福利與權益保障法，放寬親等限制」，因為後面的「此等偏遠地區」可以同時領取托補及育兒津貼涉及整個全面的部分，而且現在我們的托補與育兒津貼只能夠擇一領取，這涉及整體制度，偏遠地區的這一塊也涉及整體資源的部分，所以我們建議是不是可以把這句話刪除？至於在2個月內，因為放寬親等限制還涉及到要修兒童及少年福利與權益保障法，所以這個部分是不是可以在文字上做調整？最後就是在2個月內提出書面報告？"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？"],["盧委員縣一：OK。"],["主席：好，修正後通過。","第三案主管機關有意見嗎？其實與上午通過的一樣嘛！"],["簡署長慧娟：對。"],["主席：是不是就一起通過？"],["蘇委員清泉：要在倒數第三行的「報告」前面加上「書面」二字。"],["主席：好，文字修正後通過。","第四案。"],["林督導參事嚞慧：主席、各位委員好。針對第四案，法務部代表謹針對第二段的部分，要求內政部及法務部，針對執法過程中，如何保障社工個人隱私及人權，提出檢討與精進作為，向立法院社環委員會提出書面報告，這一點是沒有問題。但是有關社工的部分，這一點與刑事訴訟法第八十九條之一以及執行拘提逮捕解送過程使用戒具的實施要點規定，它是要求所有執法機關應該要注意被告及犯罪嫌疑人的身體及名譽，避免戒具的暴露，所以我建議這邊的「社工」能不能改成「被告及犯罪嫌疑人」，回復到法條的依據。"],["主席：好，可以回復到法條，只是提醒在執行的過程中真的要更細膩，好不好？"],["林督導參事嚞慧：是。"],["主席：你們好好檢討。"],["林督導參事嚞慧：好。"],["主席：修正後通過。"],["林督導參事嚞慧：謝謝。"],["主席：第五案。"],["蘇司長昭如：謝謝委員關心關於社工涉訟的協助機制，對於最後一段，我們是支持的，但是建議刪除第二句話，因為不一定是完全委託法扶基金會，所以最後一段修正為「爰要求衛福部於一個月內提出支持社工涉訟協助機制」。"],["主席：好，可以，修正後通過。我們要做社工的後盾，因為他們的職業風險真的也很高，謝謝。","第六案。"],["簡署長慧娟：第六案是不是可以在二個月內，因為這個需要再找很多相關單位。"],["主席：好，沒問題，那就請於二個月內提出詳細的計畫。好，修正後通過。","第七案。"],["簡署長慧娟：建議將第五行修正為「研議在收出養制度中，運用幼兒專責醫師對兒童進行健康與發展評估」，後面的健檢費用等等是不是可以刪除？接下來是一發現有問題就即時通報「地方政府」，這樣就能早發現早處理，絕對不能再發生像剴剴這樣的悲劇，並向立法院社福及衛環委員會提出「書面」報告。"],["主席：蘇委員，可以嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：你在說什麼，我聽不懂。"],["簡署長慧娟：我們就是要運用幼兒專責醫師的制度，對孩子進行健康及發展的評估。目前就是幼兒專責醫師與社政及衛政要做一個連結，尤其是對於出養的孩子，如果被安置之後，我們現在已經是造冊納入幼兒專責醫師制度，指定一位醫師負責處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個案件就是醫師漏接嘛！根本沒有醫師介入嘛！脆弱家庭才是我們最關心的，但是你現在講這些，其實會去找專責醫師、會上網，又有一大堆表格要填寫，有那個能力的家庭也不需要了啦！"],["簡署長慧娟：我們已經造冊。我們已經透過地方政府，針對被安置的177名孩童，造冊送給地方去做一個指定。"],["薛部長瑞元：向委員說明，這個是幼兒專責醫師制度，本來就有這個機制在處理，所以我們同仁的意思是不需要再特別講鄰近衛生所或社區診所，因為本來就有這個機制。在這個機制之下，對小孩做健康或發展評估都是免費的、都是由公務預算支出。"],["蘇委員清泉：署長，偏遠地區與原鄉地區根本沒有合格醫師，更何況是兒科專責醫師，你有沒有看到那個情況之嚴重？盧縣一，你都沒有講話！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，在偏遠地區是由衛生所的醫師來取代幼兒專責醫師的角色。"],["蘇委員清泉：我真的不知道你們在說什麼，應該說得更詳細一點。"],["主席：可以修正後通過嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：好。"],["主席：好，就按照剛剛署長所說的文字修正後通過。","第八案。"],["蘇司長昭如：謝謝委員關心社工人力的問題，剛剛也與涂委員做了一些討論及溝通，我們是建議從倒數第五行開始的後段，修改為「爰建請衛福部於一個月內依最新規定賦予社工之業務，重新盤點全國兒少福利訪視社工人力需求，同時盤點新規定實施後社工缺額狀況及補強措施」。"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？"],["涂委員權吉：OK，好。"],["主席：那就按修正文字通過。","第九案。"],["吳司長林輝：教育部配合辦理。"],["主席：第九案通過。","第十案。"],["簡署長慧娟：第十案的部分，剛剛我們已經與林委員做了一些溝通，主要是我們今天的報告也對於出養前的照顧及評估機制另外改變了相關的一些安置流程，這樣就會納入委託安置，所以在第四行的「並修訂」以下文字改成「並納入委託安置程序，修正《直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則》，要求地方主管機關」，把「有關居托人員建立，應改為」這幾個字刪除，並且把「要求地方主管機關強制建立訪視」的「強制」二字拿掉，後面就都一樣，剛剛已經與林委員先做過溝通了。"],["主席：好，修正後通過。","第十一案。"],["簡署長慧娟：第十一案是將倒數第二行改為「建立居托服務中心與媒合機構共訪準則」，因為實際上最重要的是去做訪視輔導，所以我們建議把「共案」改成「共訪」。後面那個因為就不是行政程序，所以是不是就把「以明確行政程序」刪除？"],["主席：可以嗎？林委員，你還要更改文字嗎？"],["林委員月琴：第三行，把「請衛福部向……」的「向」改成「要求」，要求兒福聯盟針對劉童兒虐致死案提供相關檢討報告。"],["簡署長慧娟：第十一案，林委員把「向」改成「要求」。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：OK。"],["主席：好，那就修正通過。","第十二案。"],["簡署長慧娟：可以。"],["主席：第十二案沒問題？"],["簡署長慧娟：是。"],["主席：好，那就通過。","第十三案。"],["張司長秀鴛：謝謝委員的關心。在第十三案倒數第三行「要求衛福部應將相關」的後面加上「重大兒童及少年虐待」這幾個字，以及最後的一段話改成「以利各單位後續協助處置」，也就是將「及時介入」改成「後續協助」，謝謝委員同意。"],["主席：好，那就修正後通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。","第十三案有一個錯字，將第四行的「未免」更正為「為免」。","剛剛已經宣告12點半要休息半小時用餐，現在是13分，所以我們在徐巧芯委員質詢結束之後就休息用餐。","現在請蘇清泉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"149995","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149995","tool":"pyannote","id":"149995-pyannote"},"j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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,630 --> 00:00:12,810\n好,我們請邱委員。好,我們一樣請我們的薛部長。好,請部長。好,部長您辛苦了。但是,碰到這個問題,我也覺得,我還是這樣覺得,您還是責無旁貸。我想我們現在就,\n\n2\n00:00:36,082 --> 00:01:03,471\n針對我們今天會發生這樣的事情來討論我們要該怎麼樣解決這個才是我們未來要做的事情因為我之前在網站上看到我們社會加強社會安全網的一個廣告我覺得有點諷刺就是把社會安全網的漏洞補起來過去安全網沒接觸的人找出來這一句話現在真的看起來真的是有點刺眼所以在\n\n3\n00:01:05,039 --> 00:01:33,582\n昨天看到您的報告之前我們看到那報告我真的不知道你們在講什麼不過剛剛你們有提的新的報告所以這個部分我就不再提那麼我們現在這樣子我們先討論一下我們現在知道我們收養的評估機制要改我們的兒少法要修是嗎那我請教部長在這個之前在修法之前你們要地方在這個依據什麼\n\n4\n00:01:35,171 --> 00:01:57,022\n法律來執行在這一段期間因為如果沒有弄好我想這段期間也是一個空窗期我想部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎?比方說在第一點的改變比方說這個出養的這個評估的機制的話目前是定在說由這個媒合機構來做評估\n\n5\n00:02:01,044 --> 00:02:29,553\n但是在還沒有把法律修正完之前的話我們就會要求地方政府要加入這個評估這個就不需要法律的那個所以這個沒有機構仍然去做你的評估但是你的這個兩種方式一個就是事後你的評估報告事後要經過社會局去做審查\n\n6\n00:02:30,333 --> 00:02:54,741\n另外一個就是你要做評估如果需要實地去訪視的時候那社會局就必須要派員一起來去做這個評估那我們中央是擔任什麼職工作?這個本來就是在地方去做執行的地方有能力處理嗎?中央就是要把這件事情找地方來把它講清楚說以後我們就是要這樣做\n\n7\n00:02:56,513 --> 00:03:02,943\n因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情因為我看到我們經常會有報告就是說\n\n8\n00:03:05,651 --> 00:03:30,778\n我們針對這件案子我們兒少保護三級的預防政策與業務歸於由於衛福部三個署負責但是我們缺乏整體的連貫那現在又把這個球丟回去地方上我認為地方上目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西有,一定有這個能量明確定就可以\n\n9\n00:03:31,238 --> 00:03:42,871\n不要說出了問題我認為我本席在這邊建議我認為我們衛福部還是要擔起責任你不能說雖然是他們來審核那我們的機制在哪裡\n\n10\n00:03:43,942 --> 00:03:48,345\n這不是推責任而是本來就應該是他的責任因為執行面就是在地方那中央的話會去做督導\n\n11\n00:04:07,399 --> 00:04:29,613\n就每年或每半年或每季的話,他把這一個相關的東西報上來。我懂部長的意思,但是我現在站在地方的立場,我跟您報告就是說,你們要換成地方做出這個出養評估,那麼地方就要伸出人力,那在這個部分增加的社工的工作量,是不是會這樣子?\n\n12\n00:04:32,298 --> 00:04:55,904\n他本來就屬於脆弱家庭,他本來就是應該去做那問題現在是我們的社工量、人員夠嗎?現在是因為機制上面有問題,他把這些事情都丟給這個媒體機構去做所以就是人手不夠嗎?對不對?不一定是人手不夠,是就把他推出去就對了,我講難聽一點就這樣子啦\n\n13\n00:04:58,260 --> 00:04:59,061\n各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎?\n\n14\n00:05:16,786 --> 00:05:40,980\n這個當然夠不夠這個我們都可以再重新來盤因為有些地方憑良心講它的各個地方狀況不一樣那可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題那我想我們部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方在人員不足的地方你有什麼做法具體的做法嗎\n\n15\n00:05:41,440 --> 00:06:03,403\n社安網的部分的話那對於人力就是非常的重視所以我們定期都會做一個盤點那聽取各個縣市他們的可能在招募人力的這個問題何在然後做出一些改善的措施我這邊有一個想法就是說每個地方每個地區都有林里長\n\n16\n00:06:04,804 --> 00:06:33,726\n那其實林里長的部分我覺得他可以試著來訓練或者是說來邀請一起來上課來協助這個部分的一個巡視他不一定要做什麼我講的就是說他不需要到專業的部分那是不是透過林里長這部分來協助地方上來這樣的一個有類似的這樣的家庭要多多關注多多回報這個建立一套完整的一個機制可以嗎\n\n17\n00:06:34,656 --> 00:06:47,801\n林里長本來就是網絡的一方,但是他所負擔的這個責任是比較輕的對,但是因為我們是從地方起來,我們是從基層起來,所以我發現很多林里長\n\n18\n00:06:49,315 --> 00:06:49,335\n那\n\n19\n00:07:22,859 --> 00:07:28,862\n我們保母虐童這一次的問題不是第一次,風險其實是蠻高的。我們有沒有從保母體系的問題來做通盤的檢討?\n\n20\n00:07:39,711 --> 00:07:52,977\n當然這整個保姆的一個選擇他的資格條件還有他的訓練這些都本來就有那是如果需要加強當然我們會再來做加強不過我要跟你們報告的是這樣\n\n21\n00:07:54,478 --> 00:08:08,785\n通常這一種的話這種加強訓練是可以對那些可能疏失的案件來做一些防止對這種惡意故意的案件其實再加強訓練也沒有太大的功能這個必須要是\n\n22\n00:08:09,665 --> 00:08:27,568\n第三方或者是第四方加強監督,讓他不敢去做這種事情,這樣子才是真正解決的辦法。當然我覺得保姆的訓練上,在資格的認定上,應該也要有一套完整的一個基礎。當然當然,這本來就有。實際訓練當然是一回事,當然到了真正他在工作的時候,會不會面臨到現在同樣的問題。\n\n23\n00:08:36,710 --> 00:09:01,785\n目前還不曉得,但您也不曉得啦,那當然我認為就是說,我們是不是要經常的來做一個評估不要讓我們這個民眾他自己就是說在請保姆的時候,就好像抽盲盒一樣對不對,運氣好就好的,運氣不好就抽到不好的,這個部分我覺得我們政府應該有必要來好好的做一個妥善的管理\n\n24\n00:09:03,051 --> 00:09:17,306\n這部分當然是可以加強,也就是我剛剛提到的平常的訓練以及考核,這部分我們都一直有在做,但是對於這種惡意的,特別要去有一個機制去做處理來預防\n\n25\n00:09:19,339 --> 00:09:45,724\n我們部裡面會發許可給媒合機構,是從這邊來申請的對不對?身為委託單位,我認為我們部裡面應該要監督管理的責任,這個部分除了一年檢查一次,我們三年也要評鑑一次對不對?根本報告,我們不是委託的單位,我們是給許可\n\n26\n00:09:48,589 --> 00:10:16,415\n這個核定他有資格做這件事情是由我們來核定但是每一個個案社會局要交給這個既然是媒合啦就是說您發給許可嘛那當然你好你不是委託單位那如果這個東西執照是您發的部裡面發的那我們有責任嗎我們會定期做評鑑現在的管理辦法是什麼\n\n27\n00:10:17,851 --> 00:10:42,316\n現在的管理辦法是什麼?對,我們就是會定期做評鑑,每年會去做業務我這樣講啦,除了一年檢查一次之外,三年評鑑一次啦,那還有什麼嗎?在各種的有關於這個收出養的案件的話,那會有一些會議,來看看那這樣子啦\n\n28\n00:10:45,773 --> 00:11:08,005\n我的看法是這些小孩、這些孩子在沒有父母在身旁政府當然有責任讓我們這些孩子平安長大這是我們最終的一個目的那麼我想衛福部既然是主管機關那本席在這邊希望您檢查評鑑內容上在檢查跟評鑑的內容要多多琢磨好不好讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善\n\n29\n00:11:11,367 --> 00:11:21,440\n對,我今天報告特別去提到這一點,就對於媒合機構他的一個許可的辦法,我們會再重新再盤點。好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝邱鎮軍委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11630\t12810\t好,我們請邱委員。好,我們一樣請我們的薛部長。好,請部長。好,部長您辛苦了。但是,碰到這個問題,我也覺得,我還是這樣覺得,您還是責無旁貸。我想我們現在就,\n36082\t63471\t針對我們今天會發生這樣的事情來討論我們要該怎麼樣解決這個才是我們未來要做的事情因為我之前在網站上看到我們社會加強社會安全網的一個廣告我覺得有點諷刺就是把社會安全網的漏洞補起來過去安全網沒接觸的人找出來這一句話現在真的看起來真的是有點刺眼所以在\n65039\t93582\t昨天看到您的報告之前我們看到那報告我真的不知道你們在講什麼不過剛剛你們有提的新的報告所以這個部分我就不再提那麼我們現在這樣子我們先討論一下我們現在知道我們收養的評估機制要改我們的兒少法要修是嗎那我請教部長在這個之前在修法之前你們要地方在這個依據什麼\n95171\t117022\t法律來執行在這一段期間因為如果沒有弄好我想這段期間也是一個空窗期我想部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎?比方說在第一點的改變比方說這個出養的這個評估的機制的話目前是定在說由這個媒合機構來做評估\n121044\t149553\t但是在還沒有把法律修正完之前的話我們就會要求地方政府要加入這個評估這個就不需要法律的那個所以這個沒有機構仍然去做你的評估但是你的這個兩種方式一個就是事後你的評估報告事後要經過社會局去做審查\n150333\t174741\t另外一個就是你要做評估如果需要實地去訪視的時候那社會局就必須要派員一起來去做這個評估那我們中央是擔任什麼職工作?這個本來就是在地方去做執行的地方有能力處理嗎?中央就是要把這件事情找地方來把它講清楚說以後我們就是要這樣做\n176513\t182943\t因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情因為我看到我們經常會有報告就是說\n185651\t210778\t我們針對這件案子我們兒少保護三級的預防政策與業務歸於由於衛福部三個署負責但是我們缺乏整體的連貫那現在又把這個球丟回去地方上我認為地方上目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西有,一定有這個能量明確定就可以\n211238\t222871\t不要說出了問題我認為我本席在這邊建議我認為我們衛福部還是要擔起責任你不能說雖然是他們來審核那我們的機制在哪裡\n223942\t228345\t這不是推責任而是本來就應該是他的責任因為執行面就是在地方那中央的話會去做督導\n247399\t269613\t就每年或每半年或每季的話,他把這一個相關的東西報上來。我懂部長的意思,但是我現在站在地方的立場,我跟您報告就是說,你們要換成地方做出這個出養評估,那麼地方就要伸出人力,那在這個部分增加的社工的工作量,是不是會這樣子?\n272298\t295904\t他本來就屬於脆弱家庭,他本來就是應該去做那問題現在是我們的社工量、人員夠嗎?現在是因為機制上面有問題,他把這些事情都丟給這個媒體機構去做所以就是人手不夠嗎?對不對?不一定是人手不夠,是就把他推出去就對了,我講難聽一點就這樣子啦\n298260\t299061\t各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎?\n316786\t340980\t這個當然夠不夠這個我們都可以再重新來盤因為有些地方憑良心講它的各個地方狀況不一樣那可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題那我想我們部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方在人員不足的地方你有什麼做法具體的做法嗎\n341440\t363403\t社安網的部分的話那對於人力就是非常的重視所以我們定期都會做一個盤點那聽取各個縣市他們的可能在招募人力的這個問題何在然後做出一些改善的措施我這邊有一個想法就是說每個地方每個地區都有林里長\n364804\t393726\t那其實林里長的部分我覺得他可以試著來訓練或者是說來邀請一起來上課來協助這個部分的一個巡視他不一定要做什麼我講的就是說他不需要到專業的部分那是不是透過林里長這部分來協助地方上來這樣的一個有類似的這樣的家庭要多多關注多多回報這個建立一套完整的一個機制可以嗎\n394656\t407801\t林里長本來就是網絡的一方,但是他所負擔的這個責任是比較輕的對,但是因為我們是從地方起來,我們是從基層起來,所以我發現很多林里長\n409315\t409335\t那\n442859\t448862\t我們保母虐童這一次的問題不是第一次,風險其實是蠻高的。我們有沒有從保母體系的問題來做通盤的檢討?\n459711\t472977\t當然這整個保姆的一個選擇他的資格條件還有他的訓練這些都本來就有那是如果需要加強當然我們會再來做加強不過我要跟你們報告的是這樣\n474478\t488785\t通常這一種的話這種加強訓練是可以對那些可能疏失的案件來做一些防止對這種惡意故意的案件其實再加強訓練也沒有太大的功能這個必須要是\n489665\t507568\t第三方或者是第四方加強監督,讓他不敢去做這種事情,這樣子才是真正解決的辦法。當然我覺得保姆的訓練上,在資格的認定上,應該也要有一套完整的一個基礎。當然當然,這本來就有。實際訓練當然是一回事,當然到了真正他在工作的時候,會不會面臨到現在同樣的問題。\n516710\t541785\t目前還不曉得,但您也不曉得啦,那當然我認為就是說,我們是不是要經常的來做一個評估不要讓我們這個民眾他自己就是說在請保姆的時候,就好像抽盲盒一樣對不對,運氣好就好的,運氣不好就抽到不好的,這個部分我覺得我們政府應該有必要來好好的做一個妥善的管理\n543051\t557306\t這部分當然是可以加強,也就是我剛剛提到的平常的訓練以及考核,這部分我們都一直有在做,但是對於這種惡意的,特別要去有一個機制去做處理來預防\n559339\t585724\t我們部裡面會發許可給媒合機構,是從這邊來申請的對不對?身為委託單位,我認為我們部裡面應該要監督管理的責任,這個部分除了一年檢查一次,我們三年也要評鑑一次對不對?根本報告,我們不是委託的單位,我們是給許可\n588589\t616415\t這個核定他有資格做這件事情是由我們來核定但是每一個個案社會局要交給這個既然是媒合啦就是說您發給許可嘛那當然你好你不是委託單位那如果這個東西執照是您發的部裡面發的那我們有責任嗎我們會定期做評鑑現在的管理辦法是什麼\n617851\t642316\t現在的管理辦法是什麼?對,我們就是會定期做評鑑,每年會去做業務我這樣講啦,除了一年檢查一次之外,三年評鑑一次啦,那還有什麼嗎?在各種的有關於這個收出養的案件的話,那會有一些會議,來看看那這樣子啦\n645773\t668005\t我的看法是這些小孩、這些孩子在沒有父母在身旁政府當然有責任讓我們這些孩子平安長大這是我們最終的一個目的那麼我想衛福部既然是主管機關那本席在這邊希望您檢查評鑑內容上在檢查跟評鑑的內容要多多琢磨好不好讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善\n671367\t681440\t對,我今天報告特別去提到這一點,就對於媒合機構他的一個許可的辦法,我們會再重新再盤點。好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝邱鎮軍委員\n","txt":"好,我們請邱委員。好,我們一樣請我們的薛部長。好,請部長。好,部長您辛苦了。但是,碰到這個問題,我也覺得,我還是這樣覺得,您還是責無旁貸。我想我們現在就,\n針對我們今天會發生這樣的事情來討論我們要該怎麼樣解決這個才是我們未來要做的事情因為我之前在網站上看到我們社會加強社會安全網的一個廣告我覺得有點諷刺就是把社會安全網的漏洞補起來過去安全網沒接觸的人找出來這一句話現在真的看起來真的是有點刺眼所以在\n昨天看到您的報告之前我們看到那報告我真的不知道你們在講什麼不過剛剛你們有提的新的報告所以這個部分我就不再提那麼我們現在這樣子我們先討論一下我們現在知道我們收養的評估機制要改我們的兒少法要修是嗎那我請教部長在這個之前在修法之前你們要地方在這個依據什麼\n法律來執行在這一段期間因為如果沒有弄好我想這段期間也是一個空窗期我想部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎?比方說在第一點的改變比方說這個出養的這個評估的機制的話目前是定在說由這個媒合機構來做評估\n但是在還沒有把法律修正完之前的話我們就會要求地方政府要加入這個評估這個就不需要法律的那個所以這個沒有機構仍然去做你的評估但是你的這個兩種方式一個就是事後你的評估報告事後要經過社會局去做審查\n另外一個就是你要做評估如果需要實地去訪視的時候那社會局就必須要派員一起來去做這個評估那我們中央是擔任什麼職工作?這個本來就是在地方去做執行的地方有能力處理嗎?中央就是要把這件事情找地方來把它講清楚說以後我們就是要這樣做\n因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情因為我看到我們經常會有報告就是說\n我們針對這件案子我們兒少保護三級的預防政策與業務歸於由於衛福部三個署負責但是我們缺乏整體的連貫那現在又把這個球丟回去地方上我認為地方上目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西有,一定有這個能量明確定就可以\n不要說出了問題我認為我本席在這邊建議我認為我們衛福部還是要擔起責任你不能說雖然是他們來審核那我們的機制在哪裡\n這不是推責任而是本來就應該是他的責任因為執行面就是在地方那中央的話會去做督導\n就每年或每半年或每季的話,他把這一個相關的東西報上來。我懂部長的意思,但是我現在站在地方的立場,我跟您報告就是說,你們要換成地方做出這個出養評估,那麼地方就要伸出人力,那在這個部分增加的社工的工作量,是不是會這樣子?\n他本來就屬於脆弱家庭,他本來就是應該去做那問題現在是我們的社工量、人員夠嗎?現在是因為機制上面有問題,他把這些事情都丟給這個媒體機構去做所以就是人手不夠嗎?對不對?不一定是人手不夠,是就把他推出去就對了,我講難聽一點就這樣子啦\n各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎?\n這個當然夠不夠這個我們都可以再重新來盤因為有些地方憑良心講它的各個地方狀況不一樣那可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題那我想我們部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方在人員不足的地方你有什麼做法具體的做法嗎\n社安網的部分的話那對於人力就是非常的重視所以我們定期都會做一個盤點那聽取各個縣市他們的可能在招募人力的這個問題何在然後做出一些改善的措施我這邊有一個想法就是說每個地方每個地區都有林里長\n那其實林里長的部分我覺得他可以試著來訓練或者是說來邀請一起來上課來協助這個部分的一個巡視他不一定要做什麼我講的就是說他不需要到專業的部分那是不是透過林里長這部分來協助地方上來這樣的一個有類似的這樣的家庭要多多關注多多回報這個建立一套完整的一個機制可以嗎\n林里長本來就是網絡的一方,但是他所負擔的這個責任是比較輕的對,但是因為我們是從地方起來,我們是從基層起來,所以我發現很多林里長\n那\n我們保母虐童這一次的問題不是第一次,風險其實是蠻高的。我們有沒有從保母體系的問題來做通盤的檢討?\n當然這整個保姆的一個選擇他的資格條件還有他的訓練這些都本來就有那是如果需要加強當然我們會再來做加強不過我要跟你們報告的是這樣\n通常這一種的話這種加強訓練是可以對那些可能疏失的案件來做一些防止對這種惡意故意的案件其實再加強訓練也沒有太大的功能這個必須要是\n第三方或者是第四方加強監督,讓他不敢去做這種事情,這樣子才是真正解決的辦法。當然我覺得保姆的訓練上,在資格的認定上,應該也要有一套完整的一個基礎。當然當然,這本來就有。實際訓練當然是一回事,當然到了真正他在工作的時候,會不會面臨到現在同樣的問題。\n目前還不曉得,但您也不曉得啦,那當然我認為就是說,我們是不是要經常的來做一個評估不要讓我們這個民眾他自己就是說在請保姆的時候,就好像抽盲盒一樣對不對,運氣好就好的,運氣不好就抽到不好的,這個部分我覺得我們政府應該有必要來好好的做一個妥善的管理\n這部分當然是可以加強,也就是我剛剛提到的平常的訓練以及考核,這部分我們都一直有在做,但是對於這種惡意的,特別要去有一個機制去做處理來預防\n我們部裡面會發許可給媒合機構,是從這邊來申請的對不對?身為委託單位,我認為我們部裡面應該要監督管理的責任,這個部分除了一年檢查一次,我們三年也要評鑑一次對不對?根本報告,我們不是委託的單位,我們是給許可\n這個核定他有資格做這件事情是由我們來核定但是每一個個案社會局要交給這個既然是媒合啦就是說您發給許可嘛那當然你好你不是委託單位那如果這個東西執照是您發的部裡面發的那我們有責任嗎我們會定期做評鑑現在的管理辦法是什麼\n現在的管理辦法是什麼?對,我們就是會定期做評鑑,每年會去做業務我這樣講啦,除了一年檢查一次之外,三年評鑑一次啦,那還有什麼嗎?在各種的有關於這個收出養的案件的話,那會有一些會議,來看看那這樣子啦\n我的看法是這些小孩、這些孩子在沒有父母在身旁政府當然有責任讓我們這些孩子平安長大這是我們最終的一個目的那麼我想衛福部既然是主管機關那本席在這邊希望您檢查評鑑內容上在檢查跟評鑑的內容要多多琢磨好不好讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善\n對,我今天報告特別去提到這一點,就對於媒合機構他的一個許可的辦法,我們會再重新再盤點。好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝邱鎮軍委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.630 --> 00:12.810\n好,我們請邱委員。好,我們一樣請我們的薛部長。好,請部長。好,部長您辛苦了。但是,碰到這個問題,我也覺得,我還是這樣覺得,您還是責無旁貸。我想我們現在就,\n\n00:36.082 --> 01:03.471\n針對我們今天會發生這樣的事情來討論我們要該怎麼樣解決這個才是我們未來要做的事情因為我之前在網站上看到我們社會加強社會安全網的一個廣告我覺得有點諷刺就是把社會安全網的漏洞補起來過去安全網沒接觸的人找出來這一句話現在真的看起來真的是有點刺眼所以在\n\n01:05.039 --> 01:33.582\n昨天看到您的報告之前我們看到那報告我真的不知道你們在講什麼不過剛剛你們有提的新的報告所以這個部分我就不再提那麼我們現在這樣子我們先討論一下我們現在知道我們收養的評估機制要改我們的兒少法要修是嗎那我請教部長在這個之前在修法之前你們要地方在這個依據什麼\n\n01:35.171 --> 01:57.022\n法律來執行在這一段期間因為如果沒有弄好我想這段期間也是一個空窗期我想部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎?比方說在第一點的改變比方說這個出養的這個評估的機制的話目前是定在說由這個媒合機構來做評估\n\n02:01.044 --> 02:29.553\n但是在還沒有把法律修正完之前的話我們就會要求地方政府要加入這個評估這個就不需要法律的那個所以這個沒有機構仍然去做你的評估但是你的這個兩種方式一個就是事後你的評估報告事後要經過社會局去做審查\n\n02:30.333 --> 02:54.741\n另外一個就是你要做評估如果需要實地去訪視的時候那社會局就必須要派員一起來去做這個評估那我們中央是擔任什麼職工作?這個本來就是在地方去做執行的地方有能力處理嗎?中央就是要把這件事情找地方來把它講清楚說以後我們就是要這樣做\n\n02:56.513 --> 03:02.943\n因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情因為我看到我們經常會有報告就是說\n\n03:05.651 --> 03:30.778\n我們針對這件案子我們兒少保護三級的預防政策與業務歸於由於衛福部三個署負責但是我們缺乏整體的連貫那現在又把這個球丟回去地方上我認為地方上目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西有,一定有這個能量明確定就可以\n\n03:31.238 --> 03:42.871\n不要說出了問題我認為我本席在這邊建議我認為我們衛福部還是要擔起責任你不能說雖然是他們來審核那我們的機制在哪裡\n\n03:43.942 --> 03:48.345\n這不是推責任而是本來就應該是他的責任因為執行面就是在地方那中央的話會去做督導\n\n04:07.399 --> 04:29.613\n就每年或每半年或每季的話,他把這一個相關的東西報上來。我懂部長的意思,但是我現在站在地方的立場,我跟您報告就是說,你們要換成地方做出這個出養評估,那麼地方就要伸出人力,那在這個部分增加的社工的工作量,是不是會這樣子?\n\n04:32.298 --> 04:55.904\n他本來就屬於脆弱家庭,他本來就是應該去做那問題現在是我們的社工量、人員夠嗎?現在是因為機制上面有問題,他把這些事情都丟給這個媒體機構去做所以就是人手不夠嗎?對不對?不一定是人手不夠,是就把他推出去就對了,我講難聽一點就這樣子啦\n\n04:58.260 --> 04:59.061\n各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎?\n\n05:16.786 --> 05:40.980\n這個當然夠不夠這個我們都可以再重新來盤因為有些地方憑良心講它的各個地方狀況不一樣那可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題那我想我們部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方在人員不足的地方你有什麼做法具體的做法嗎\n\n05:41.440 --> 06:03.403\n社安網的部分的話那對於人力就是非常的重視所以我們定期都會做一個盤點那聽取各個縣市他們的可能在招募人力的這個問題何在然後做出一些改善的措施我這邊有一個想法就是說每個地方每個地區都有林里長\n\n06:04.804 --> 06:33.726\n那其實林里長的部分我覺得他可以試著來訓練或者是說來邀請一起來上課來協助這個部分的一個巡視他不一定要做什麼我講的就是說他不需要到專業的部分那是不是透過林里長這部分來協助地方上來這樣的一個有類似的這樣的家庭要多多關注多多回報這個建立一套完整的一個機制可以嗎\n\n06:34.656 --> 06:47.801\n林里長本來就是網絡的一方,但是他所負擔的這個責任是比較輕的對,但是因為我們是從地方起來,我們是從基層起來,所以我發現很多林里長\n\n06:49.315 --> 06:49.335\n那\n\n07:22.859 --> 07:28.862\n我們保母虐童這一次的問題不是第一次,風險其實是蠻高的。我們有沒有從保母體系的問題來做通盤的檢討?\n\n07:39.711 --> 07:52.977\n當然這整個保姆的一個選擇他的資格條件還有他的訓練這些都本來就有那是如果需要加強當然我們會再來做加強不過我要跟你們報告的是這樣\n\n07:54.478 --> 08:08.785\n通常這一種的話這種加強訓練是可以對那些可能疏失的案件來做一些防止對這種惡意故意的案件其實再加強訓練也沒有太大的功能這個必須要是\n\n08:09.665 --> 08:27.568\n第三方或者是第四方加強監督,讓他不敢去做這種事情,這樣子才是真正解決的辦法。當然我覺得保姆的訓練上,在資格的認定上,應該也要有一套完整的一個基礎。當然當然,這本來就有。實際訓練當然是一回事,當然到了真正他在工作的時候,會不會面臨到現在同樣的問題。\n\n08:36.710 --> 09:01.785\n目前還不曉得,但您也不曉得啦,那當然我認為就是說,我們是不是要經常的來做一個評估不要讓我們這個民眾他自己就是說在請保姆的時候,就好像抽盲盒一樣對不對,運氣好就好的,運氣不好就抽到不好的,這個部分我覺得我們政府應該有必要來好好的做一個妥善的管理\n\n09:03.051 --> 09:17.306\n這部分當然是可以加強,也就是我剛剛提到的平常的訓練以及考核,這部分我們都一直有在做,但是對於這種惡意的,特別要去有一個機制去做處理來預防\n\n09:19.339 --> 09:45.724\n我們部裡面會發許可給媒合機構,是從這邊來申請的對不對?身為委託單位,我認為我們部裡面應該要監督管理的責任,這個部分除了一年檢查一次,我們三年也要評鑑一次對不對?根本報告,我們不是委託的單位,我們是給許可\n\n09:48.589 --> 10:16.415\n這個核定他有資格做這件事情是由我們來核定但是每一個個案社會局要交給這個既然是媒合啦就是說您發給許可嘛那當然你好你不是委託單位那如果這個東西執照是您發的部裡面發的那我們有責任嗎我們會定期做評鑑現在的管理辦法是什麼\n\n10:17.851 --> 10:42.316\n現在的管理辦法是什麼?對,我們就是會定期做評鑑,每年會去做業務我這樣講啦,除了一年檢查一次之外,三年評鑑一次啦,那還有什麼嗎?在各種的有關於這個收出養的案件的話,那會有一些會議,來看看那這樣子啦\n\n10:45.773 --> 11:08.005\n我的看法是這些小孩、這些孩子在沒有父母在身旁政府當然有責任讓我們這些孩子平安長大這是我們最終的一個目的那麼我想衛福部既然是主管機關那本席在這邊希望您檢查評鑑內容上在檢查跟評鑑的內容要多多琢磨好不好讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善\n\n11:11.367 --> 11:21.440\n對,我今天報告特別去提到這一點,就對於媒合機構他的一個許可的辦法,我們會再重新再盤點。好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝邱鎮軍委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.63,"end":12.81,"text":"好,我們請邱委員。好,我們一樣請我們的薛部長。好,請部長。好,部長您辛苦了。但是,碰到這個問題,我也覺得,我還是這樣覺得,您還是責無旁貸。我想我們現在就,"},{"start":36.082,"end":63.471,"text":"針對我們今天會發生這樣的事情來討論我們要該怎麼樣解決這個才是我們未來要做的事情因為我之前在網站上看到我們社會加強社會安全網的一個廣告我覺得有點諷刺就是把社會安全網的漏洞補起來過去安全網沒接觸的人找出來這一句話現在真的看起來真的是有點刺眼所以在"},{"start":65.039,"end":93.582,"text":"昨天看到您的報告之前我們看到那報告我真的不知道你們在講什麼不過剛剛你們有提的新的報告所以這個部分我就不再提那麼我們現在這樣子我們先討論一下我們現在知道我們收養的評估機制要改我們的兒少法要修是嗎那我請教部長在這個之前在修法之前你們要地方在這個依據什麼"},{"start":95.171,"end":117.022,"text":"法律來執行在這一段期間因為如果沒有弄好我想這段期間也是一個空窗期我想部長可以跟我們做一個說明嗎?比方說在第一點的改變比方說這個出養的這個評估的機制的話目前是定在說由這個媒合機構來做評估"},{"start":121.044,"end":149.553,"text":"但是在還沒有把法律修正完之前的話我們就會要求地方政府要加入這個評估這個就不需要法律的那個所以這個沒有機構仍然去做你的評估但是你的這個兩種方式一個就是事後你的評估報告事後要經過社會局去做審查"},{"start":150.333,"end":174.741,"text":"另外一個就是你要做評估如果需要實地去訪視的時候那社會局就必須要派員一起來去做這個評估那我們中央是擔任什麼職工作?這個本來就是在地方去做執行的地方有能力處理嗎?中央就是要把這件事情找地方來把它講清楚說以後我們就是要這樣做"},{"start":176.513,"end":182.943,"text":"因為中央不可能每一個案子都派人去做這件事情因為我看到我們經常會有報告就是說"},{"start":185.651,"end":210.778,"text":"我們針對這件案子我們兒少保護三級的預防政策與業務歸於由於衛福部三個署負責但是我們缺乏整體的連貫那現在又把這個球丟回去地方上我認為地方上目前應該沒有這個能量來評估這樣一個東西有,一定有這個能量明確定就可以"},{"start":211.238,"end":222.871,"text":"不要說出了問題我認為我本席在這邊建議我認為我們衛福部還是要擔起責任你不能說雖然是他們來審核那我們的機制在哪裡"},{"start":223.942,"end":228.345,"text":"這不是推責任而是本來就應該是他的責任因為執行面就是在地方那中央的話會去做督導"},{"start":247.399,"end":269.613,"text":"就每年或每半年或每季的話,他把這一個相關的東西報上來。我懂部長的意思,但是我現在站在地方的立場,我跟您報告就是說,你們要換成地方做出這個出養評估,那麼地方就要伸出人力,那在這個部分增加的社工的工作量,是不是會這樣子?"},{"start":272.298,"end":295.904,"text":"他本來就屬於脆弱家庭,他本來就是應該去做那問題現在是我們的社工量、人員夠嗎?現在是因為機制上面有問題,他把這些事情都丟給這個媒體機構去做所以就是人手不夠嗎?對不對?不一定是人手不夠,是就把他推出去就對了,我講難聽一點就這樣子啦"},{"start":298.26,"end":299.061,"text":"各縣市的社工人數是夠的嗎?"},{"start":316.786,"end":340.98,"text":"這個當然夠不夠這個我們都可以再重新來盤因為有些地方憑良心講它的各個地方狀況不一樣那可能是財政的關係或者是一些人員不好聘請的問題那我想我們部裡面應該要有一個完整的機制來協助地方在人員不足的地方你有什麼做法具體的做法嗎"},{"start":341.44,"end":363.403,"text":"社安網的部分的話那對於人力就是非常的重視所以我們定期都會做一個盤點那聽取各個縣市他們的可能在招募人力的這個問題何在然後做出一些改善的措施我這邊有一個想法就是說每個地方每個地區都有林里長"},{"start":364.804,"end":393.726,"text":"那其實林里長的部分我覺得他可以試著來訓練或者是說來邀請一起來上課來協助這個部分的一個巡視他不一定要做什麼我講的就是說他不需要到專業的部分那是不是透過林里長這部分來協助地方上來這樣的一個有類似的這樣的家庭要多多關注多多回報這個建立一套完整的一個機制可以嗎"},{"start":394.656,"end":407.801,"text":"林里長本來就是網絡的一方,但是他所負擔的這個責任是比較輕的對,但是因為我們是從地方起來,我們是從基層起來,所以我發現很多林里長"},{"start":409.315,"end":409.335,"text":"那"},{"start":442.859,"end":448.862,"text":"我們保母虐童這一次的問題不是第一次,風險其實是蠻高的。我們有沒有從保母體系的問題來做通盤的檢討?"},{"start":459.711,"end":472.977,"text":"當然這整個保姆的一個選擇他的資格條件還有他的訓練這些都本來就有那是如果需要加強當然我們會再來做加強不過我要跟你們報告的是這樣"},{"start":474.478,"end":488.785,"text":"通常這一種的話這種加強訓練是可以對那些可能疏失的案件來做一些防止對這種惡意故意的案件其實再加強訓練也沒有太大的功能這個必須要是"},{"start":489.665,"end":507.568,"text":"第三方或者是第四方加強監督,讓他不敢去做這種事情,這樣子才是真正解決的辦法。當然我覺得保姆的訓練上,在資格的認定上,應該也要有一套完整的一個基礎。當然當然,這本來就有。實際訓練當然是一回事,當然到了真正他在工作的時候,會不會面臨到現在同樣的問題。"},{"start":516.71,"end":541.785,"text":"目前還不曉得,但您也不曉得啦,那當然我認為就是說,我們是不是要經常的來做一個評估不要讓我們這個民眾他自己就是說在請保姆的時候,就好像抽盲盒一樣對不對,運氣好就好的,運氣不好就抽到不好的,這個部分我覺得我們政府應該有必要來好好的做一個妥善的管理"},{"start":543.051,"end":557.306,"text":"這部分當然是可以加強,也就是我剛剛提到的平常的訓練以及考核,這部分我們都一直有在做,但是對於這種惡意的,特別要去有一個機制去做處理來預防"},{"start":559.339,"end":585.724,"text":"我們部裡面會發許可給媒合機構,是從這邊來申請的對不對?身為委託單位,我認為我們部裡面應該要監督管理的責任,這個部分除了一年檢查一次,我們三年也要評鑑一次對不對?根本報告,我們不是委託的單位,我們是給許可"},{"start":588.589,"end":616.415,"text":"這個核定他有資格做這件事情是由我們來核定但是每一個個案社會局要交給這個既然是媒合啦就是說您發給許可嘛那當然你好你不是委託單位那如果這個東西執照是您發的部裡面發的那我們有責任嗎我們會定期做評鑑現在的管理辦法是什麼"},{"start":617.851,"end":642.316,"text":"現在的管理辦法是什麼?對,我們就是會定期做評鑑,每年會去做業務我這樣講啦,除了一年檢查一次之外,三年評鑑一次啦,那還有什麼嗎?在各種的有關於這個收出養的案件的話,那會有一些會議,來看看那這樣子啦"},{"start":645.773,"end":668.005,"text":"我的看法是這些小孩、這些孩子在沒有父母在身旁政府當然有責任讓我們這些孩子平安長大這是我們最終的一個目的那麼我想衛福部既然是主管機關那本席在這邊希望您檢查評鑑內容上在檢查跟評鑑的內容要多多琢磨好不好讓我們現在的狀況能夠改善"},{"start":671.367,"end":681.44,"text":"對,我今天報告特別去提到這一點,就對於媒合機構他的一個許可的辦法,我們會再重新再盤點。好,謝謝部長。好,我們謝謝邱鎮軍委員"}]}}}}