{"id":150010,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ab6c196f40cd0b3993919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a660b2cef193fb396c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:06:29 - 12:23:14","影片長度":"00:16:45","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-7"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":1005,"end_time":"2024-03-18T12:23:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T12:06:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時6分）我們請蔡部長和周局長。蔡部長剛才提到違反偵查不公開有一些例外，就是辦法第八條有一些例外，我們先看第一個個案陳宗彥的案子。陳宗彥的案子在當時地檢署被質疑的時候，他馬上出來開了一個記者會說已經分「他」字案重新調查，我要請問一下，可以對外公開說本案已經分他字案的理由是什麼？他的依據是什麼？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果是要對外說明，我們的作業辦法確實也可以容許的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們先跳回上一張。我們看一下，第八條第一項第七款有提到對於網路或傳媒的不實資訊，會影響到被告、關係嫌疑人或被害人這些人時，認為有澄清的必要，這時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯，但我今天的問題是，我歷年來看到的都是地檢署在為自己澄清，地檢署不會為當事人澄清。第八條第一項第七款其實是規定，對於被害人或當事人有澄清必要時可以做不公開的例外，但我看到的地檢署總是在說自己沒有不對。在檢方的邏輯裡面，是不是當事人的名譽沒有那麼重要？"],["蔡部長清祥：對被告的名譽或隱私認為有澄清的必要還是可以澄清的，所以這是全盤的並不是只對某個特定人。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我請大家注意這點，地檢署對於新聞媒體的報導影響到當事人名譽時，地檢署也應該適時的澄清，而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話。當事人、被告或告訴人被獵巫、被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來。一直以來都是這樣，社會上也都看得到。","我們再往下看，依據辦法第十一條，地檢署會成立偵查不公開檢討小組，從108年運作到現在超過五年了，部長覺得效果怎麼樣？"],["蔡部長清祥：是有再精進的必要，我們是要求每半年對外公布他們檢討的件數，到底有沒有違反、要不要查辦、要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在這邊先跟各位說一下，我現在問的東西如果涉及個案，部長不回答沒有關係，我絕對尊重偵查中的個案，我不會去做任何介入，但對通案部分，麻煩一定要說明一下。","高虹安的案子在112年4月28日有一個報導說檢方的心證已成而且起訴在即。像這樣的東西，我知道很多時候是媒體的臆測，像剛剛南檢就趕快幫自己澄清，這個時候檢方好像都不管。媒體報導馬上就要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼事情，檢方的心證已成，在這個狀況下，為什麼檢方又不跳出來替當事人說明？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果有必要，他也是會適度的做說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們再往下看一下。我有查了北檢偵查不公開部分的檢討，112年1月到6月共有30件，其中同一事實的案是13件，但沒有任何人被處分。我的問題在於不管今天怎麼樣，檢方是法務部的，我們都知道辦貪污案件，通常警方不會介入貪污案件的偵辦，所以偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、廉政署，不管是調查站、廉政署或檢方都是屬於法務部轄下，再怎麼樣一定是這些單位洩漏出去的嘛！剛剛羅致強委員有說過，當事人不可能對外洩漏對我不利的事情，顯然一定是這些相關單位的公務員講出去的，那法務部到底有沒有查詢這是怎麼回事？"],["蔡部長清祥：不一定絕對，因為可能是辯護人或者有去瞭解的行政機關。"],["吳委員宗憲：任何可能性當然有，但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人，他會不會害自己的當事人而去講這些，造成他將來辯護得更辛苦，我倒覺得這從邏輯上可能機率比較低。我覺得是這樣，不管怎樣，這些單位都是法務部底下的，法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事。"],["蔡部長清祥：我會要求，不管是檢察機關、調查機關或廉政機關，一定要遵守這個規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：我自己看了，112年4月法務部調查局也有一個檢討，結果都沒有人被處分，也就是說在這個案子裡面，不管是檢方或調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任。這部分其實我覺得滿奇怪的、滿不可思議的，也就是說所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任、一團和氣，皇城內一片祥和，大家都沒事，都不用處理任何人，對於這個我覺得無法理解。這是調查局的調查結果，都不用處分，北檢也都沒有，到最後就是大家都沒事。","不管是吳思瑤委員談的或者其他委員講的，他們都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查，但每件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分，這麼多年來就是地檢署10個，高檢署0個。我沒有辦法理解為什麼要這樣做？我在這邊穿插一個，我跟部長報告一件事情，我自己以前做檢察官時曾經有一個案子，是一位區公所的員工，那是一個他字案，我跟他問完案子要簽結了，我很客氣的把筆錄問完，問完之後他走出去的時候回過頭來跟我講了一句話：「檢察官你知不知道，你這張傳票上面是貪污治罪條例，只是一張傳票，你害了我一輩子」，因為他長官馬上把他調到最邊邊去，他家裡的人整天在擔心受怕。也就是說檢察官的一個作為，任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害，我們真的不能這樣做。今天因為一個案子他涉案被調查，將來可能是還他清白，但在這段時間的這種搞法，搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦？他的一輩子被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了。這件事情應該至少十年以上了，但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力。希望部長能告訴所有同仁不能這樣做，今天你違反偵查不公開，洩漏出去，有的人可能只是選情受影響，但有的人可能一輩子受害，家裡人很痛苦，每天都在擔心，收到傳票人的心情，部長當過檢察官也能夠體會。"],["蔡部長清祥：我同意委員的看法，所以我們一直要求所有辦案人員一定要非常謹慎的處理他們手邊偵查的案件。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們再看一下宜蘭縣的案子也是，林姿妙縣長的案子，在111年1月13日廉政署搜索完畢後，隔天獨家報導就出來了，日期、內容全部都洩漏出來。今天不管是檢察官或廉政署都是法務部底下，這件事到底有沒有查清楚？結果宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人。這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影，後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情。本案也是一件很奇怪的事情，廉政署查也沒有人有責任，結果宜蘭地檢署對外的說法，竟然是少數人士或媒體以「政治追殺」、「東廠」、「國家機器」而妄加臆測，實不足信。這個是怎麼樣？今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了，檢察官是偵查主體指揮廉政署，自己應該要負最大責任，卻在這個時候去教訓民眾說你們不要來講我壞話，這絕對不對的！其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰，我今天捍衛的是我們的司法，因為這些事情一件一件的累積下去，搞到最後人民對司法的信任度越來越低，這是我不樂見的，我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人。","我們再往下看，我想偵查人員的思維，發動偵查前我們真的不希望案子辦不下去，但發動偵查後真的也不要走漏風聲，很多時候是不是為了邀功、是不是為了升遷，我們常幹了一些事情，結果到最後判無罪，當事人被判無罪也受了一輩子的傷害了。這個檢察官可能為了升遷，他升遷成了但後面很多判無罪，在實務上我不多說也不去指特定人，但這可能是長期以來很多檢察官都認為的陋習，部裡一定要去想想這個部分，因為每個人都是國民，都是我們要保護的對象，這個請一定要注意。","再來就是現在有一些星光大道，周局長，我個人也覺得有一點問題，雖然它有安定民心的一些作用，但很多時候會不會讓人民產生一些偏見，尤其現在是國民法官，如果讓國民法官會造成案子的偏見，對於司法不是好事。我引用美國首席大法官曾說過的話，法律難以改變人民的偏見，但不應該為偏見服務，更不可以讓人們的偏見，因法律直接或間接產生力量。千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了、搞不清楚，對某些事情產生一些預先的想法。","再來我們看一下楊文科的案子，今天前面很多人都提了，我也不多說，但我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊全部把它爆出來，我沒有說記者怎麼樣，因為記者本來就是去挖新聞，今天承辦的是新竹縣調站和北機組、新竹地檢署，就這3個單位，也都是法務部底下的，為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料，包括在他家搜到多少錢這些細節，當天講了什麼，週刊都可以爆出來，我覺得這是不可思議的。這個案子裡被害者是國家，其他當事人大部分都是被告，被告沒有必要洩出來讓自己更難堪，律師也沒有必要講出來讓自己以後辯護時更辛苦，所以我必須說，這個如果要推給其他人，推給警察、推給律師，總是在邏輯上說不通。這部分我也覺得，麻煩不要讓這些案子搞到最後變成是帶風向的案子，這會影響將來國民法官在看案子時的想法，這都會有影響。我國不像歐洲有遺忘權，所以很多東西在網路上就是一輩子的事情，這沒有辦法抹滅，是不是我們應該要儘量避免讓這個事情發生？既然我們有偵查不公開的規定，儘量要嚴守偵查不公開。如果事情發生之後，你推我、我推你，每個機關推來推去，大家都沒事，這個也不對！就是因為這樣推來推去，大家沒事，人民看在眼中就是明明有洩漏的結果，但大家都說我沒事，不關我的事，這就是對於司法的一個傷害。最後，周局長。"],["周局長幼偉：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：剛剛翁主席提到上銬這件事，雖然我跟大家的想法有點不太一樣，但我必須講，警察高層麻煩你們還是要有肩膀。在這件事情上面，第一時間警方跳出來是說上銬違反比例原則，要處分。對不對？第一時間他出來講的是這個。當時我是講，警察依據檢察官核發的拘票，因為我沒看過卷，我不敢說檢察官拘票核發是否適當，這個我不評論，但警察依據檢察官核發的拘票對被告上手銬，第一個法律上面，第一關是沒有問題的，再來有沒有違反比例原則？你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下，沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則，不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒！我們要挺基層，警察也辛苦、社工也辛苦，但我們是法治國，我們應該一切依照法律走，要捍衛法律，這時候是不是先要弄清楚只有在場執行的人有裁量權，認為當時到底需不需要上手銬，長官要弄清楚當時上手銬的原因，我們再來談要不要處分他，更何況被告如果脫逃的話，有個脫逃罪，警察是有刑責的，所以我認為這個時候不要每次發生事情警方高層第一個跳出來先罵警察，你先釐清，如果是後來手銬外露，你要處分，我絕對贊成，但前階段上銬到底有沒有違反比例原則，真的是要弄清楚之後再下定論。好不好？"],["周局長幼偉：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：畢竟警方也是公務員裡面算是因公殉職不是第一名就是第二名高的工作，也是值得保護。"],["周局長幼偉：對於委員的要求，我們……"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。接下來請王委員鴻薇詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"m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00:01:09,162\n陳宗彥的案子陳宗彥的案子當時地檢署被質疑的時候他馬上出來開了一個記者會他說已經分他治案重新調查那我想請問一下可以對外公開說本案已經分他治案的這個理由是什麼他的依據是什麼如果是要對外來說明我們的這個作業辦法是確實也可以容許的\n\n4\n00:01:10,759 --> 00:01:39,961\n好那我們先跳回剛剛上一張好了來我們剛剛看一下這個第8條的第7第一項第7款他其實說的他其實是有提到就是說對於這網路或傳媒的不實的資訊那會影響到被告、犯罪人或被害人這些人的時候認為有澄清的必要這個時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯但是呢我今天的問題是我歷年來看到的都是地檢署都是在為自己澄清\n\n5\n00:01:40,802 --> 00:01:40,942\n副部長\n\n6\n00:02:10,384 --> 00:02:10,444\n地檢署對於\n\n7\n00:02:26,437 --> 00:02:50,000\n新聞媒體的報導有影響到當事人的名譽的時候地檢署也應該要適時的澄清而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話那當事人被告或是告訴人被獵巫被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來這部分我想說這一直以來都是這樣這個大家社會上也都看得到那我們再往下面看\n\n8\n00:02:51,401 --> 00:03:05,810\n我想請教一下部長依據辦法的第11條地檢署他會成立偵查不公開的檢討小組那從108年運作到現在超過5年了我想請教部長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣\n\n9\n00:03:07,288 --> 00:03:22,788\n是有在精進的必要因為我們是要求每半年會對外來公布他們檢討的件數那到底他有沒有違反要不要查辦要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明\n\n10\n00:03:25,430 --> 00:03:50,529\n我先在這邊先跟各位說一下因為我現在問的東西如果涉及個案部長不回答沒有關係我絕對尊重偵查中的個案我不會去做任何介入但是我通案的部分再麻煩這一定要說明一下好那我們看一下其實高鴻安的案子在112年4月28號有一個報導就是說檢方的新證已成而且他也說這個起訴在即\n\n11\n00:03:53,231 --> 00:04:07,229\n那像這個東西雖然我知道很多時候是媒體自己的臆測那像剛剛南檢他就會趕快幫自己澄清那這個時候為什麼好像檢方也都不管這個\n\n12\n00:04:08,669 --> 00:04:33,190\n媒體報導說馬上要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼樣的事情檢方的新證已成那像這個狀況下為什麼檢方這個時候又不會跳出來替當事人說明如果有必要他還是會適度的做說明那我們看一下我們再往下看一下我有去查了一下就是北檢的偵查不公開的部分\n\n13\n00:04:34,192 --> 00:04:50,340\n他的那個檢討他在112年1月到6月的時候總共30件那有我看了一下有一個同一案是13件但是呢都不用處都沒有任何人被處分那我的我的問題是在不管今天怎麼樣\n\n14\n00:04:51,580 --> 00:05:18,873\n檢方是法務部的我們都知道辦貪污案件通常警方不會不會來那個介入貪污案件的偵辦所以呢偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、連政署那不管是調查站或連政署或是檢方都是屬於法務部、轄下那再怎麼樣一定是這些單位那個洩漏出去嘛因為剛剛那個那個羅志強委員有講啊我是當事人我總部為什麼我不可能對外會去\n\n15\n00:05:19,833 --> 00:05:19,853\n吳宗憲\n\n16\n00:05:39,523 --> 00:06:03,021\n任何可能性當然有但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人他會不會去害自己的當事人去講這些造成他將來辯護的更辛苦我倒覺得這個從邏輯上面可能機率比較低吧但是我覺得是這樣啦不管怎麼樣這些單位都是法務部底下的那法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事\n\n17\n00:06:04,389 --> 00:06:27,337\n我會要求啦,不管是檢查機關或是調查機關、連任機關,他們一定要遵守這個規定因為我自己看了啦,112年4月那個法務部調查局他也有一個檢討結果也都沒有人被處分,也就是說在這個案子裡面不管檢方或是調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任\n\n18\n00:06:29,798 --> 00:06:48,004\n都沒有任何人認為自己有責任這個部分其實我覺得還蠻奇怪的蠻不可思議也就是所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任一團和氣黃城那一片祥和大家都沒事那都不用處理任何人這個我覺得沒有辦法理解\n\n19\n00:06:51,065 --> 00:07:16,268\n這個就是調查局的處分調查結果就是也都不用處分北檢也都沒有所以到最後就是大家都沒事所以我剛剛看不管是那個吳司教委員談的或者是其他委員講的都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查但是每一件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分這麼多年來就是地檢署就10個高檢署0個那我也沒有辦法理解說\n\n20\n00:07:18,699 --> 00:07:26,925\n為什麼要這樣做我這邊穿插一個啦我跟部長報告一件事情我自己以前在當警察官的時候曾經有一個案子是一個區公所的員工\n\n21\n00:07:28,430 --> 00:07:56,333\n我跟他問完案子他是一個他治案而已我跟他問完我就要簽結了然後我跟他我也是很客氣的把筆錄問完問完之後他走出去的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句話他說檢察官你知不知道你這一張船票上面是貪污自對條例只是一張船票你害了我一輩子因為他長官馬上把他調調到最邊邊去他家裡面的人整天都在擔心受怕也就是說檢察官的一個作為任何一個\n\n22\n00:07:57,679 --> 00:08:26,808\n任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害我們真的不能這麼做今天一個案子你涉案了被調查將來可能是還他清白但是在這段時間的這種搞法搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦他一輩子就被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了那件事情在我已經應該至少10年前以上的事情但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力我想希望\n\n23\n00:08:28,004 --> 00:08:46,083\n部長你能夠告訴所有的同仁不能這樣做你今天你違反偵查不公開你洩漏出去有的人他可能是影響到選情而已但是有的人他可能一輩子受害他家裡面人痛苦每天都在擔心那個收到傳票人的心情我想部長應該也\n\n24\n00:08:47,624 --> 00:09:12,655\n當過檢察官也能夠體會我同意委員的看法所以我們一直要求所有的辦案人員一定要非常的謹慎在處理他所手邊偵查的案件那我們再看一下就是宜蘭縣的案子也是這個林之廟縣長的案子他在111年1月13號聯政組搜索完畢之後隔天就有獨家報導出來\n\n25\n00:09:14,921 --> 00:09:17,868\n馬上獨家報導就出來然後日期什麼、內容什麼全部都洩露出來\n\n26\n00:09:21,055 --> 00:09:46,214\n今天不管是檢察官連政署都是法務部底下那到底這件事有沒有查清楚結果呢我們後來看到宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人再來這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影結果後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情結果在本案也是也是一件很奇怪的事連政署查也沒有人有責任結果那個\n\n27\n00:09:49,455 --> 00:10:11,421\n醫安地檢署竟然對外的說法是說少數人士或媒體以政治追殺東廠國家機器妄加臆測然後時不足訊那這個是怎麼樣今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了檢察官是檢察官是那個偵查主體\n\n28\n00:10:12,597 --> 00:10:39,471\n指揮連政署自己應該要負最大的責任卻在這個時候去教訓去教訓民眾你們不要來講我壞話這絕對不對的啊這樣下去為什麼其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰我今天捍衛的是我們的司法因為這些事情一件一件一件累積下去搞到最後人民對對司法的信任度越來越低這是我不樂見我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人好那我們再\n\n29\n00:10:41,772 --> 00:10:50,686\n我們再往下看齁其實我想要偵查人員的思維啦發動偵查前我們真的是不希望案子辦不下去但是發動偵查後\n\n30\n00:10:52,645 --> 00:11:13,990\n真的不要也不要走漏風聲很多時候是不是為了邀功是不是為了升遷我們常幹的一些事情就到最後判無罪當事人被判無罪了也都受了一輩子的傷害了那這個檢察官可能為了升遷他升遷成了但是後面很多判無罪嘛我想這個在實務上面我也不多說我也不去指就是\n\n31\n00:11:14,910 --> 00:11:16,551\n現在有一些星光大道我個人也覺得\n\n32\n00:11:35,964 --> 00:11:59,799\n呃這個局長州長也是有一點問題啦雖然他有安定民心的一些作用但是很多時候齁這會不會讓人民產生一些偏見尤其是現在我們是國民法官我們如果讓這些人國民法官他會造成案子的偏見對於司法也不是好事所以呢我們是我這邊引用一個美國的首席大法官的一個\n\n33\n00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:25,977\n他曾經說過的法律難以改變人們的偏見但是不應該為這個偏見服務那更不可以讓人們的偏見是因為這個法律直接或間接讓他產生力量千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了去搞不清楚去對某些事情產生一些預先的想法\n\n34\n00:12:27,449 --> 00:12:45,507\n好那最後再來我們去看一下陽文科這個案子因為今天前面很多人都提了我這邊也不多說但是我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊就全部把它爆出來在這邊我沒有說記者怎麼樣記者他本來就是去挖新聞但是\n\n35\n00:12:46,843 --> 00:13:12,635\n今天承辦的是那個新竹縣調站還有那個北基組新竹地檢署就這三個單位也都是法務部底下的那為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料包括在他家收到多少錢這些細節當天講了什麼週刊都可以報出來我覺得這個是這不可思議啦那在這個案子裡面被害者是\n\n36\n00:13:13,814 --> 00:13:13,834\n吳宗憲議員\n\n37\n00:13:41,687 --> 00:14:00,842\n這些案子搞到最後就是為了呃變成是帶風向的案子因為這個會影響將來國民法官他在看案子的時候的想法這都會有影響然後呃因為我國啊總是沒有我國不像歐洲有有那個遺忘權啦\n\n38\n00:14:01,977 --> 00:14:21,990\n那所以說很多東西在網路上面就是一輩子的事情這個沒有辦法磨滅那是不是說我們應該要盡量避免讓這個事情發生既然我們有偵查不公開的規定盡量要去嚴守偵查不公開如果事情發生之後你推我我推你每個機關推來推去大家都沒事\n\n39\n00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:51,107\n這個也不對啊就是因為這樣推來推去大家沒事那人民看在眼中就是明明有洩漏的結果但是大家都說我沒事都不關我的事這就是對於那個司法的一個傷害最後我想那個周局長剛剛那個主席翁主席他有提到上銬這個事雖然我跟大家的看法有點不太一樣但是我必須講一個\n\n40\n00:14:53,601 --> 00:14:59,988\n警察、高層、麻煩你們還是要有肩膀在這件事情上面\n\n41\n00:15:02,243 --> 00:15:24,698\n第一時間警方跳出來是說上課違反比例原則要處分對不對第一時間他出來講的是這個當時我是講警察依據檢察官核發的G票當然因為我沒有看過卷我不敢說檢察官G票核發適不適當這個我不評論但是警察依據檢察官核發的G票去對被告上手銬\n\n42\n00:15:26,004 --> 00:15:32,555\n那第一個法律上面第一關是沒有問題的再來有沒有違反比例原則\n\n43\n00:15:33,888 --> 00:15:56,038\n你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒啊我們要挺基層嘛警察也辛苦社工也辛苦但是我們是法治國欸我們應該要一切依照法律來走不要捍衛法律嘛那這個時候是不是先要弄清楚\n\n44\n00:15:57,065 --> 00:16:14,111\n只有在場執行的人他們有裁量權認為當時到底需不需要上手銬長官要先弄清楚當時上手銬的原因我們再來談要不要去處分他那更何況被告如果脫逃的話有個脫逃罪警察是有刑責的所以我認為這個時候\n\n45\n00:16:15,606 --> 00:16:15,646\n好謝謝吳委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4485\t4866\t蔡部長、周局長\n24424\t38755\t蔡副長您剛剛有提到違反偵查不公開他有一些例外嘛就是辦法第8條其他有一些例外那我想請問一下我們現在先看第一個個案\n40155\t69162\t陳宗彥的案子陳宗彥的案子當時地檢署被質疑的時候他馬上出來開了一個記者會他說已經分他治案重新調查那我想請問一下可以對外公開說本案已經分他治案的這個理由是什麼他的依據是什麼如果是要對外來說明我們的這個作業辦法是確實也可以容許的\n70759\t99961\t好 那我們先跳回剛剛上一張好了來 我們剛剛看一下這個第8條的第7第一項第7款他其實說的他其實是有提到就是說對於這網路或傳媒的不實的資訊那會影響到被告、犯罪人或被害人這些人的時候認為有澄清的必要這個時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯但是呢 我今天的問題是我歷年來看到的都是地檢署都是在為自己澄清\n100802\t100942\t副部長\n130384\t130444\t地檢署對於\n146437\t170000\t新聞媒體的報導有影響到當事人的名譽的時候地檢署也應該要適時的澄清而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話那當事人被告或是告訴人被獵巫被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來這部分我想說這一直以來都是這樣這個大家社會上也都看得到那我們再往下面看\n171401\t185810\t我想請教一下部長依據辦法的第11條地檢署他會成立偵查不公開的檢討小組那從108年運作到現在超過5年了我想請教部長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣\n187288\t202788\t是有在精進的必要因為我們是要求每半年會對外來公布他們檢討的件數那到底他有沒有違反要不要查辦要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明\n205430\t230529\t我先在這邊先跟各位說一下因為我現在問的東西如果涉及個案部長不回答沒有關係我絕對尊重偵查中的個案我不會去做任何介入但是我通案的部分再麻煩這一定要說明一下好那我們看一下其實高鴻安的案子在112年4月28號有一個報導就是說檢方的新證已成而且他也說這個起訴在即\n233231\t247229\t那像這個東西雖然我知道很多時候是媒體自己的臆測那像剛剛南檢他就會趕快幫自己澄清那這個時候為什麼好像檢方也都不管這個\n248669\t273190\t媒體報導說馬上要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼樣的事情檢方的新證已成那像這個狀況下為什麼檢方這個時候又不會跳出來替當事人說明如果有必要他還是會適度的做說明那我們看一下我們再往下看一下我有去查了一下就是北檢的偵查不公開的部分\n274192\t290340\t他的那個檢討他在112年1月到6月的時候總共30件那有我看了一下有一個同一案是13件但是呢都不用處都沒有任何人被處分那我的我的問題是在不管今天怎麼樣\n291580\t318873\t檢方是法務部的我們都知道辦貪污案件通常警方不會不會來那個介入貪污案件的偵辦所以呢偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、連政署那不管是調查站或連政署或是檢方都是屬於法務部、轄下那再怎麼樣一定是這些單位那個洩漏出去嘛因為剛剛那個那個羅志強委員有講啊我是當事人我總部為什麼我不可能對外會去\n319833\t319853\t吳宗憲\n339523\t363021\t任何可能性當然有但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人他會不會去害自己的當事人去講這些造成他將來辯護的更辛苦我倒覺得這個從邏輯上面可能機率比較低吧但是我覺得是這樣啦不管怎麼樣這些單位都是法務部底下的那法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事\n364389\t387337\t我會要求啦,不管是檢查機關或是調查機關、連任機關,他們一定要遵守這個規定因為我自己看了啦,112年4月那個法務部調查局他也有一個檢討結果也都沒有人被處分,也就是說在這個案子裡面不管檢方或是調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任\n389798\t408004\t都沒有任何人認為自己有責任這個部分其實我覺得還蠻奇怪的蠻不可思議也就是所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任一團和氣黃城那一片祥和大家都沒事那都不用處理任何人這個我覺得沒有辦法理解\n411065\t436268\t這個就是調查局的處分調查結果就是也都不用處分北檢也都沒有所以到最後就是大家都沒事所以我剛剛看不管是那個吳司教委員談的或者是其他委員講的都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查但是每一件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分這麼多年來就是地檢署就10個高檢署0個那我也沒有辦法理解說\n438699\t446925\t為什麼要這樣做我這邊穿插一個啦我跟部長報告一件事情我自己以前在當警察官的時候曾經有一個案子是一個區公所的員工\n448430\t476333\t我跟他問完案子他是一個他治案而已我跟他問完我就要簽結了然後我跟他我也是很客氣的把筆錄問完問完之後他走出去的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句話他說檢察官你知不知道你這一張船票上面是貪污自對條例只是一張船票你害了我一輩子因為他長官馬上把他調調到最邊邊去他家裡面的人整天都在擔心受怕也就是說檢察官的一個作為任何一個\n477679\t506808\t任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害我們真的不能這麼做今天一個案子你涉案了被調查將來可能是還他清白但是在這段時間的這種搞法搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦他一輩子就被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了那件事情在我已經應該至少10年前以上的事情但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力我想希望\n508004\t526083\t部長你能夠告訴所有的同仁不能這樣做你今天你違反偵查不公開你洩漏出去有的人他可能是影響到選情而已但是有的人他可能一輩子受害他家裡面人痛苦每天都在擔心那個收到傳票人的心情我想部長應該也\n527624\t552655\t當過檢察官也能夠體會我同意委員的看法所以我們一直要求所有的辦案人員一定要非常的謹慎在處理他所手邊偵查的案件那我們再看一下就是宜蘭縣的案子也是這個林之廟縣長的案子他在111年1月13號聯政組搜索完畢之後隔天就有獨家報導出來\n554921\t557868\t馬上獨家報導就出來然後日期什麼、內容什麼全部都洩露出來\n561055\t586214\t今天不管是檢察官連政署都是法務部底下那到底這件事有沒有查清楚結果呢我們後來看到宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人再來這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影結果後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情結果在本案也是也是一件很奇怪的事連政署查也沒有人有責任結果那個\n589455\t611421\t醫安地檢署竟然對外的說法是說少數人士或媒體以政治追殺東廠國家機器妄加臆測然後時不足訊那這個是怎麼樣今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了檢察官是檢察官是那個偵查主體\n612597\t639471\t指揮連政署自己應該要負最大的責任卻在這個時候去教訓去教訓民眾你們不要來講我壞話這絕對不對的啊這樣下去為什麼其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰我今天捍衛的是我們的司法因為這些事情一件一件一件累積下去搞到最後人民對對司法的信任度越來越低這是我不樂見我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人好 那我們再\n641772\t650686\t我們再往下看齁其實我想要偵查人員的思維啦發動偵查前我們真的是不希望案子辦不下去但是發動偵查後\n652645\t673990\t真的不要也不要走漏風聲很多時候是不是為了邀功是不是為了升遷我們常幹的一些事情就到最後判無罪當事人被判無罪了也都受了一輩子的傷害了那這個檢察官可能為了升遷他升遷成了但是後面很多判無罪嘛我想這個在實務上面我也不多說我也不去指就是\n674910\t676551\t現在有一些星光大道我個人也覺得\n695964\t719799\t呃 這個 局長 州長也是有一點問題啦雖然他有安定民心的一些作用但是很多時候齁這會不會讓人民產生一些偏見尤其是現在我們是國民法官我們如果讓這些人國民法官他會造成案子的偏見對於司法也不是好事所以呢我們是我這邊引用一個美國的首席大法官的一個\n721300\t745977\t他曾經說過的法律難以改變人們的偏見但是不應該為這個偏見服務那更不可以讓人們的偏見是因為這個法律直接或間接讓他產生力量千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了去搞不清楚去對某些事情產生一些預先的想法\n747449\t765507\t好那最後再來我們去看一下陽文科這個案子因為今天前面很多人都提了我這邊也不多說但是我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊就全部把它爆出來在這邊我沒有說記者怎麼樣記者他本來就是去挖新聞但是\n766843\t792635\t今天承辦的是那個新竹縣調站還有那個北基組新竹地檢署就這三個單位也都是法務部底下的那為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料包括在他家收到多少錢這些細節當天講了什麼週刊都可以報出來我覺得這個是這不可思議啦那在這個案子裡面被害者是\n793814\t793834\t吳宗憲議員\n821687\t840842\t這些案子搞到最後就是為了 呃 變成是帶風向的案子因為這個會影響將來國民法官他在看案子的時候的想法 這都會有影響然後 呃 因為我國啊 總是沒有 我國不像歐洲有 有那個遺忘權啦\n841977\t861990\t那所以說很多東西在網路上面就是一輩子的事情這個沒有辦法磨滅那是不是說我們應該要盡量避免讓這個事情發生既然我們有偵查不公開的規定盡量要去嚴守偵查不公開如果事情發生之後你推我我推你每個機關推來推去大家都沒事\n862710\t891107\t這個也不對啊就是因為這樣推來推去大家沒事那人民看在眼中就是明明有洩漏的結果但是大家都說我沒事都不關我的事這就是對於那個司法的一個傷害最後我想那個周局長剛剛那個主席翁主席他有提到上銬這個事雖然我跟大家的看法有點不太一樣但是我必須講一個\n893601\t899988\t警察、高層、麻煩你們還是要有肩膀在這件事情上面\n902243\t924698\t第一時間警方跳出來是說上課違反比例原則要處分對不對第一時間他出來講的是這個當時我是講警察依據檢察官核發的G票當然因為我沒有看過卷我不敢說檢察官G票核發適不適當這個我不評論但是警察依據檢察官核發的G票去對被告上手銬\n926004\t932555\t那第一個法律上面第一關是沒有問題的再來有沒有違反比例原則\n933888\t956038\t你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒啊我們要挺基層嘛警察也辛苦社工也辛苦但是我們是法治國欸我們應該要一切依照法律來走不要捍衛法律嘛那這個時候是不是先要弄清楚\n957065\t974111\t只有在場執行的人他們有裁量權認為當時到底需不需要上手銬長官要先弄清楚當時上手銬的原因我們再來談要不要去處分他那更何況被告如果脫逃的話有個脫逃罪警察是有刑責的所以我認為這個時候\n975606\t975646\t好 謝謝吳委員\n","txt":"蔡部長、周局長\n蔡副長您剛剛有提到違反偵查不公開他有一些例外嘛就是辦法第8條其他有一些例外那我想請問一下我們現在先看第一個個案\n陳宗彥的案子陳宗彥的案子當時地檢署被質疑的時候他馬上出來開了一個記者會他說已經分他治案重新調查那我想請問一下可以對外公開說本案已經分他治案的這個理由是什麼他的依據是什麼如果是要對外來說明我們的這個作業辦法是確實也可以容許的\n好 那我們先跳回剛剛上一張好了來 我們剛剛看一下這個第8條的第7第一項第7款他其實說的他其實是有提到就是說對於這網路或傳媒的不實的資訊那會影響到被告、犯罪人或被害人這些人的時候認為有澄清的必要這個時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯但是呢 我今天的問題是我歷年來看到的都是地檢署都是在為自己澄清\n副部長\n地檢署對於\n新聞媒體的報導有影響到當事人的名譽的時候地檢署也應該要適時的澄清而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話那當事人被告或是告訴人被獵巫被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來這部分我想說這一直以來都是這樣這個大家社會上也都看得到那我們再往下面看\n我想請教一下部長依據辦法的第11條地檢署他會成立偵查不公開的檢討小組那從108年運作到現在超過5年了我想請教部長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣\n是有在精進的必要因為我們是要求每半年會對外來公布他們檢討的件數那到底他有沒有違反要不要查辦要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明\n我先在這邊先跟各位說一下因為我現在問的東西如果涉及個案部長不回答沒有關係我絕對尊重偵查中的個案我不會去做任何介入但是我通案的部分再麻煩這一定要說明一下好那我們看一下其實高鴻安的案子在112年4月28號有一個報導就是說檢方的新證已成而且他也說這個起訴在即\n那像這個東西雖然我知道很多時候是媒體自己的臆測那像剛剛南檢他就會趕快幫自己澄清那這個時候為什麼好像檢方也都不管這個\n媒體報導說馬上要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼樣的事情檢方的新證已成那像這個狀況下為什麼檢方這個時候又不會跳出來替當事人說明如果有必要他還是會適度的做說明那我們看一下我們再往下看一下我有去查了一下就是北檢的偵查不公開的部分\n他的那個檢討他在112年1月到6月的時候總共30件那有我看了一下有一個同一案是13件但是呢都不用處都沒有任何人被處分那我的我的問題是在不管今天怎麼樣\n檢方是法務部的我們都知道辦貪污案件通常警方不會不會來那個介入貪污案件的偵辦所以呢偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、連政署那不管是調查站或連政署或是檢方都是屬於法務部、轄下那再怎麼樣一定是這些單位那個洩漏出去嘛因為剛剛那個那個羅志強委員有講啊我是當事人我總部為什麼我不可能對外會去\n吳宗憲\n任何可能性當然有但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人他會不會去害自己的當事人去講這些造成他將來辯護的更辛苦我倒覺得這個從邏輯上面可能機率比較低吧但是我覺得是這樣啦不管怎麼樣這些單位都是法務部底下的那法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事\n我會要求啦,不管是檢查機關或是調查機關、連任機關,他們一定要遵守這個規定因為我自己看了啦,112年4月那個法務部調查局他也有一個檢討結果也都沒有人被處分,也就是說在這個案子裡面不管檢方或是調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任\n都沒有任何人認為自己有責任這個部分其實我覺得還蠻奇怪的蠻不可思議也就是所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任一團和氣黃城那一片祥和大家都沒事那都不用處理任何人這個我覺得沒有辦法理解\n這個就是調查局的處分調查結果就是也都不用處分北檢也都沒有所以到最後就是大家都沒事所以我剛剛看不管是那個吳司教委員談的或者是其他委員講的都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查但是每一件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分這麼多年來就是地檢署就10個高檢署0個那我也沒有辦法理解說\n為什麼要這樣做我這邊穿插一個啦我跟部長報告一件事情我自己以前在當警察官的時候曾經有一個案子是一個區公所的員工\n我跟他問完案子他是一個他治案而已我跟他問完我就要簽結了然後我跟他我也是很客氣的把筆錄問完問完之後他走出去的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句話他說檢察官你知不知道你這一張船票上面是貪污自對條例只是一張船票你害了我一輩子因為他長官馬上把他調調到最邊邊去他家裡面的人整天都在擔心受怕也就是說檢察官的一個作為任何一個\n任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害我們真的不能這麼做今天一個案子你涉案了被調查將來可能是還他清白但是在這段時間的這種搞法搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦他一輩子就被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了那件事情在我已經應該至少10年前以上的事情但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力我想希望\n部長你能夠告訴所有的同仁不能這樣做你今天你違反偵查不公開你洩漏出去有的人他可能是影響到選情而已但是有的人他可能一輩子受害他家裡面人痛苦每天都在擔心那個收到傳票人的心情我想部長應該也\n當過檢察官也能夠體會我同意委員的看法所以我們一直要求所有的辦案人員一定要非常的謹慎在處理他所手邊偵查的案件那我們再看一下就是宜蘭縣的案子也是這個林之廟縣長的案子他在111年1月13號聯政組搜索完畢之後隔天就有獨家報導出來\n馬上獨家報導就出來然後日期什麼、內容什麼全部都洩露出來\n今天不管是檢察官連政署都是法務部底下那到底這件事有沒有查清楚結果呢我們後來看到宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人再來這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影結果後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情結果在本案也是也是一件很奇怪的事連政署查也沒有人有責任結果那個\n醫安地檢署竟然對外的說法是說少數人士或媒體以政治追殺東廠國家機器妄加臆測然後時不足訊那這個是怎麼樣今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了檢察官是檢察官是那個偵查主體\n指揮連政署自己應該要負最大的責任卻在這個時候去教訓去教訓民眾你們不要來講我壞話這絕對不對的啊這樣下去為什麼其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰我今天捍衛的是我們的司法因為這些事情一件一件一件累積下去搞到最後人民對對司法的信任度越來越低這是我不樂見我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人好 那我們再\n我們再往下看齁其實我想要偵查人員的思維啦發動偵查前我們真的是不希望案子辦不下去但是發動偵查後\n真的不要也不要走漏風聲很多時候是不是為了邀功是不是為了升遷我們常幹的一些事情就到最後判無罪當事人被判無罪了也都受了一輩子的傷害了那這個檢察官可能為了升遷他升遷成了但是後面很多判無罪嘛我想這個在實務上面我也不多說我也不去指就是\n現在有一些星光大道我個人也覺得\n呃 這個 局長 州長也是有一點問題啦雖然他有安定民心的一些作用但是很多時候齁這會不會讓人民產生一些偏見尤其是現在我們是國民法官我們如果讓這些人國民法官他會造成案子的偏見對於司法也不是好事所以呢我們是我這邊引用一個美國的首席大法官的一個\n他曾經說過的法律難以改變人們的偏見但是不應該為這個偏見服務那更不可以讓人們的偏見是因為這個法律直接或間接讓他產生力量千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了去搞不清楚去對某些事情產生一些預先的想法\n好那最後再來我們去看一下陽文科這個案子因為今天前面很多人都提了我這邊也不多說但是我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊就全部把它爆出來在這邊我沒有說記者怎麼樣記者他本來就是去挖新聞但是\n今天承辦的是那個新竹縣調站還有那個北基組新竹地檢署就這三個單位也都是法務部底下的那為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料包括在他家收到多少錢這些細節當天講了什麼週刊都可以報出來我覺得這個是這不可思議啦那在這個案子裡面被害者是\n吳宗憲議員\n這些案子搞到最後就是為了 呃 變成是帶風向的案子因為這個會影響將來國民法官他在看案子的時候的想法 這都會有影響然後 呃 因為我國啊 總是沒有 我國不像歐洲有 有那個遺忘權啦\n那所以說很多東西在網路上面就是一輩子的事情這個沒有辦法磨滅那是不是說我們應該要盡量避免讓這個事情發生既然我們有偵查不公開的規定盡量要去嚴守偵查不公開如果事情發生之後你推我我推你每個機關推來推去大家都沒事\n這個也不對啊就是因為這樣推來推去大家沒事那人民看在眼中就是明明有洩漏的結果但是大家都說我沒事都不關我的事這就是對於那個司法的一個傷害最後我想那個周局長剛剛那個主席翁主席他有提到上銬這個事雖然我跟大家的看法有點不太一樣但是我必須講一個\n警察、高層、麻煩你們還是要有肩膀在這件事情上面\n第一時間警方跳出來是說上課違反比例原則要處分對不對第一時間他出來講的是這個當時我是講警察依據檢察官核發的G票當然因為我沒有看過卷我不敢說檢察官G票核發適不適當這個我不評論但是警察依據檢察官核發的G票去對被告上手銬\n那第一個法律上面第一關是沒有問題的再來有沒有違反比例原則\n你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒啊我們要挺基層嘛警察也辛苦社工也辛苦但是我們是法治國欸我們應該要一切依照法律來走不要捍衛法律嘛那這個時候是不是先要弄清楚\n只有在場執行的人他們有裁量權認為當時到底需不需要上手銬長官要先弄清楚當時上手銬的原因我們再來談要不要去處分他那更何況被告如果脫逃的話有個脫逃罪警察是有刑責的所以我認為這個時候\n好 謝謝吳委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.485 --> 00:04.866\n蔡部長、周局長\n\n00:24.424 --> 00:38.755\n蔡副長您剛剛有提到違反偵查不公開他有一些例外嘛就是辦法第8條其他有一些例外那我想請問一下我們現在先看第一個個案\n\n00:40.155 --> 01:09.162\n陳宗彥的案子陳宗彥的案子當時地檢署被質疑的時候他馬上出來開了一個記者會他說已經分他治案重新調查那我想請問一下可以對外公開說本案已經分他治案的這個理由是什麼他的依據是什麼如果是要對外來說明我們的這個作業辦法是確實也可以容許的\n\n01:10.759 --> 01:39.961\n好那我們先跳回剛剛上一張好了來我們剛剛看一下這個第8條的第7第一項第7款他其實說的他其實是有提到就是說對於這網路或傳媒的不實的資訊那會影響到被告、犯罪人或被害人這些人的時候認為有澄清的必要這個時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯但是呢我今天的問題是我歷年來看到的都是地檢署都是在為自己澄清\n\n01:40.802 --> 01:40.942\n副部長\n\n02:10.384 --> 02:10.444\n地檢署對於\n\n02:26.437 --> 02:50.000\n新聞媒體的報導有影響到當事人的名譽的時候地檢署也應該要適時的澄清而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話那當事人被告或是告訴人被獵巫被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來這部分我想說這一直以來都是這樣這個大家社會上也都看得到那我們再往下面看\n\n02:51.401 --> 03:05.810\n我想請教一下部長依據辦法的第11條地檢署他會成立偵查不公開的檢討小組那從108年運作到現在超過5年了我想請教部長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣\n\n03:07.288 --> 03:22.788\n是有在精進的必要因為我們是要求每半年會對外來公布他們檢討的件數那到底他有沒有違反要不要查辦要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明\n\n03:25.430 --> 03:50.529\n我先在這邊先跟各位說一下因為我現在問的東西如果涉及個案部長不回答沒有關係我絕對尊重偵查中的個案我不會去做任何介入但是我通案的部分再麻煩這一定要說明一下好那我們看一下其實高鴻安的案子在112年4月28號有一個報導就是說檢方的新證已成而且他也說這個起訴在即\n\n03:53.231 --> 04:07.229\n那像這個東西雖然我知道很多時候是媒體自己的臆測那像剛剛南檢他就會趕快幫自己澄清那這個時候為什麼好像檢方也都不管這個\n\n04:08.669 --> 04:33.190\n媒體報導說馬上要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼樣的事情檢方的新證已成那像這個狀況下為什麼檢方這個時候又不會跳出來替當事人說明如果有必要他還是會適度的做說明那我們看一下我們再往下看一下我有去查了一下就是北檢的偵查不公開的部分\n\n04:34.192 --> 04:50.340\n他的那個檢討他在112年1月到6月的時候總共30件那有我看了一下有一個同一案是13件但是呢都不用處都沒有任何人被處分那我的我的問題是在不管今天怎麼樣\n\n04:51.580 --> 05:18.873\n檢方是法務部的我們都知道辦貪污案件通常警方不會不會來那個介入貪污案件的偵辦所以呢偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、連政署那不管是調查站或連政署或是檢方都是屬於法務部、轄下那再怎麼樣一定是這些單位那個洩漏出去嘛因為剛剛那個那個羅志強委員有講啊我是當事人我總部為什麼我不可能對外會去\n\n05:19.833 --> 05:19.853\n吳宗憲\n\n05:39.523 --> 06:03.021\n任何可能性當然有但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人他會不會去害自己的當事人去講這些造成他將來辯護的更辛苦我倒覺得這個從邏輯上面可能機率比較低吧但是我覺得是這樣啦不管怎麼樣這些單位都是法務部底下的那法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事\n\n06:04.389 --> 06:27.337\n我會要求啦,不管是檢查機關或是調查機關、連任機關,他們一定要遵守這個規定因為我自己看了啦,112年4月那個法務部調查局他也有一個檢討結果也都沒有人被處分,也就是說在這個案子裡面不管檢方或是調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任\n\n06:29.798 --> 06:48.004\n都沒有任何人認為自己有責任這個部分其實我覺得還蠻奇怪的蠻不可思議也就是所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任一團和氣黃城那一片祥和大家都沒事那都不用處理任何人這個我覺得沒有辦法理解\n\n06:51.065 --> 07:16.268\n這個就是調查局的處分調查結果就是也都不用處分北檢也都沒有所以到最後就是大家都沒事所以我剛剛看不管是那個吳司教委員談的或者是其他委員講的都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查但是每一件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分這麼多年來就是地檢署就10個高檢署0個那我也沒有辦法理解說\n\n07:18.699 --> 07:26.925\n為什麼要這樣做我這邊穿插一個啦我跟部長報告一件事情我自己以前在當警察官的時候曾經有一個案子是一個區公所的員工\n\n07:28.430 --> 07:56.333\n我跟他問完案子他是一個他治案而已我跟他問完我就要簽結了然後我跟他我也是很客氣的把筆錄問完問完之後他走出去的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句話他說檢察官你知不知道你這一張船票上面是貪污自對條例只是一張船票你害了我一輩子因為他長官馬上把他調調到最邊邊去他家裡面的人整天都在擔心受怕也就是說檢察官的一個作為任何一個\n\n07:57.679 --> 08:26.808\n任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害我們真的不能這麼做今天一個案子你涉案了被調查將來可能是還他清白但是在這段時間的這種搞法搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦他一輩子就被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了那件事情在我已經應該至少10年前以上的事情但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力我想希望\n\n08:28.004 --> 08:46.083\n部長你能夠告訴所有的同仁不能這樣做你今天你違反偵查不公開你洩漏出去有的人他可能是影響到選情而已但是有的人他可能一輩子受害他家裡面人痛苦每天都在擔心那個收到傳票人的心情我想部長應該也\n\n08:47.624 --> 09:12.655\n當過檢察官也能夠體會我同意委員的看法所以我們一直要求所有的辦案人員一定要非常的謹慎在處理他所手邊偵查的案件那我們再看一下就是宜蘭縣的案子也是這個林之廟縣長的案子他在111年1月13號聯政組搜索完畢之後隔天就有獨家報導出來\n\n09:14.921 --> 09:17.868\n馬上獨家報導就出來然後日期什麼、內容什麼全部都洩露出來\n\n09:21.055 --> 09:46.214\n今天不管是檢察官連政署都是法務部底下那到底這件事有沒有查清楚結果呢我們後來看到宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人再來這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影結果後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情結果在本案也是也是一件很奇怪的事連政署查也沒有人有責任結果那個\n\n09:49.455 --> 10:11.421\n醫安地檢署竟然對外的說法是說少數人士或媒體以政治追殺東廠國家機器妄加臆測然後時不足訊那這個是怎麼樣今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了檢察官是檢察官是那個偵查主體\n\n10:12.597 --> 10:39.471\n指揮連政署自己應該要負最大的責任卻在這個時候去教訓去教訓民眾你們不要來講我壞話這絕對不對的啊這樣下去為什麼其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰我今天捍衛的是我們的司法因為這些事情一件一件一件累積下去搞到最後人民對對司法的信任度越來越低這是我不樂見我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人好那我們再\n\n10:41.772 --> 10:50.686\n我們再往下看齁其實我想要偵查人員的思維啦發動偵查前我們真的是不希望案子辦不下去但是發動偵查後\n\n10:52.645 --> 11:13.990\n真的不要也不要走漏風聲很多時候是不是為了邀功是不是為了升遷我們常幹的一些事情就到最後判無罪當事人被判無罪了也都受了一輩子的傷害了那這個檢察官可能為了升遷他升遷成了但是後面很多判無罪嘛我想這個在實務上面我也不多說我也不去指就是\n\n11:14.910 --> 11:16.551\n現在有一些星光大道我個人也覺得\n\n11:35.964 --> 11:59.799\n呃這個局長州長也是有一點問題啦雖然他有安定民心的一些作用但是很多時候齁這會不會讓人民產生一些偏見尤其是現在我們是國民法官我們如果讓這些人國民法官他會造成案子的偏見對於司法也不是好事所以呢我們是我這邊引用一個美國的首席大法官的一個\n\n12:01.300 --> 12:25.977\n他曾經說過的法律難以改變人們的偏見但是不應該為這個偏見服務那更不可以讓人們的偏見是因為這個法律直接或間接讓他產生力量千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了去搞不清楚去對某些事情產生一些預先的想法\n\n12:27.449 --> 12:45.507\n好那最後再來我們去看一下陽文科這個案子因為今天前面很多人都提了我這邊也不多說但是我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊就全部把它爆出來在這邊我沒有說記者怎麼樣記者他本來就是去挖新聞但是\n\n12:46.843 --> 13:12.635\n今天承辦的是那個新竹縣調站還有那個北基組新竹地檢署就這三個單位也都是法務部底下的那為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料包括在他家收到多少錢這些細節當天講了什麼週刊都可以報出來我覺得這個是這不可思議啦那在這個案子裡面被害者是\n\n13:13.814 --> 13:13.834\n吳宗憲議員\n\n13:41.687 --> 14:00.842\n這些案子搞到最後就是為了呃變成是帶風向的案子因為這個會影響將來國民法官他在看案子的時候的想法這都會有影響然後呃因為我國啊總是沒有我國不像歐洲有有那個遺忘權啦\n\n14:01.977 --> 14:21.990\n那所以說很多東西在網路上面就是一輩子的事情這個沒有辦法磨滅那是不是說我們應該要盡量避免讓這個事情發生既然我們有偵查不公開的規定盡量要去嚴守偵查不公開如果事情發生之後你推我我推你每個機關推來推去大家都沒事\n\n14:22.710 --> 14:51.107\n這個也不對啊就是因為這樣推來推去大家沒事那人民看在眼中就是明明有洩漏的結果但是大家都說我沒事都不關我的事這就是對於那個司法的一個傷害最後我想那個周局長剛剛那個主席翁主席他有提到上銬這個事雖然我跟大家的看法有點不太一樣但是我必須講一個\n\n14:53.601 --> 14:59.988\n警察、高層、麻煩你們還是要有肩膀在這件事情上面\n\n15:02.243 --> 15:24.698\n第一時間警方跳出來是說上課違反比例原則要處分對不對第一時間他出來講的是這個當時我是講警察依據檢察官核發的G票當然因為我沒有看過卷我不敢說檢察官G票核發適不適當這個我不評論但是警察依據檢察官核發的G票去對被告上手銬\n\n15:26.004 --> 15:32.555\n那第一個法律上面第一關是沒有問題的再來有沒有違反比例原則\n\n15:33.888 --> 15:56.038\n你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒啊我們要挺基層嘛警察也辛苦社工也辛苦但是我們是法治國欸我們應該要一切依照法律來走不要捍衛法律嘛那這個時候是不是先要弄清楚\n\n15:57.065 --> 16:14.111\n只有在場執行的人他們有裁量權認為當時到底需不需要上手銬長官要先弄清楚當時上手銬的原因我們再來談要不要去處分他那更何況被告如果脫逃的話有個脫逃罪警察是有刑責的所以我認為這個時候\n\n16:15.606 --> 16:15.646\n好謝謝吳委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.485,"end":4.866,"text":"蔡部長、周局長"},{"start":24.424,"end":38.755,"text":"蔡副長您剛剛有提到違反偵查不公開他有一些例外嘛就是辦法第8條其他有一些例外那我想請問一下我們現在先看第一個個案"},{"start":40.155,"end":69.162,"text":"陳宗彥的案子陳宗彥的案子當時地檢署被質疑的時候他馬上出來開了一個記者會他說已經分他治案重新調查那我想請問一下可以對外公開說本案已經分他治案的這個理由是什麼他的依據是什麼如果是要對外來說明我們的這個作業辦法是確實也可以容許的"},{"start":70.759,"end":99.961,"text":"好 那我們先跳回剛剛上一張好了來 我們剛剛看一下這個第8條的第7第一項第7款他其實說的他其實是有提到就是說對於這網路或傳媒的不實的資訊那會影響到被告、犯罪人或被害人這些人的時候認為有澄清的必要這個時候地檢署會出來澄清沒有錯但是呢 我今天的問題是我歷年來看到的都是地檢署都是在為自己澄清"},{"start":100.802,"end":100.942,"text":"副部長"},{"start":130.384,"end":130.444,"text":"地檢署對於"},{"start":146.437,"end":170,"text":"新聞媒體的報導有影響到當事人的名譽的時候地檢署也應該要適時的澄清而不是一直以來地檢署都只是替自己講話那當事人被告或是告訴人被獵巫被攻擊的時候地檢署都躲起來這部分我想說這一直以來都是這樣這個大家社會上也都看得到那我們再往下面看"},{"start":171.401,"end":185.81,"text":"我想請教一下部長依據辦法的第11條地檢署他會成立偵查不公開的檢討小組那從108年運作到現在超過5年了我想請教部長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣"},{"start":187.288,"end":202.788,"text":"是有在精進的必要因為我們是要求每半年會對外來公布他們檢討的件數那到底他有沒有違反要不要查辦要不要懲處都會有一個對外的說明"},{"start":205.43,"end":230.529,"text":"我先在這邊先跟各位說一下因為我現在問的東西如果涉及個案部長不回答沒有關係我絕對尊重偵查中的個案我不會去做任何介入但是我通案的部分再麻煩這一定要說明一下好那我們看一下其實高鴻安的案子在112年4月28號有一個報導就是說檢方的新證已成而且他也說這個起訴在即"},{"start":233.231,"end":247.229,"text":"那像這個東西雖然我知道很多時候是媒體自己的臆測那像剛剛南檢他就會趕快幫自己澄清那這個時候為什麼好像檢方也都不管這個"},{"start":248.669,"end":273.19,"text":"媒體報導說馬上要起訴了而且還說什麼人涉及什麼樣的事情檢方的新證已成那像這個狀況下為什麼檢方這個時候又不會跳出來替當事人說明如果有必要他還是會適度的做說明那我們看一下我們再往下看一下我有去查了一下就是北檢的偵查不公開的部分"},{"start":274.192,"end":290.34,"text":"他的那個檢討他在112年1月到6月的時候總共30件那有我看了一下有一個同一案是13件但是呢都不用處都沒有任何人被處分那我的我的問題是在不管今天怎麼樣"},{"start":291.58,"end":318.873,"text":"檢方是法務部的我們都知道辦貪污案件通常警方不會不會來那個介入貪污案件的偵辦所以呢偵辦的一定是檢方、調查站、連政署那不管是調查站或連政署或是檢方都是屬於法務部、轄下那再怎麼樣一定是這些單位那個洩漏出去嘛因為剛剛那個那個羅志強委員有講啊我是當事人我總部為什麼我不可能對外會去"},{"start":319.833,"end":319.853,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":339.523,"end":363.021,"text":"任何可能性當然有但是辯護人通常為自己的當事人他會不會去害自己的當事人去講這些造成他將來辯護的更辛苦我倒覺得這個從邏輯上面可能機率比較低吧但是我覺得是這樣啦不管怎麼樣這些單位都是法務部底下的那法務部自己也要去思考這到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":364.389,"end":387.337,"text":"我會要求啦,不管是檢查機關或是調查機關、連任機關,他們一定要遵守這個規定因為我自己看了啦,112年4月那個法務部調查局他也有一個檢討結果也都沒有人被處分,也就是說在這個案子裡面不管檢方或是調查局都沒有任何人認為自己有責任"},{"start":389.798,"end":408.004,"text":"都沒有任何人認為自己有責任這個部分其實我覺得還蠻奇怪的蠻不可思議也就是所有的東西調查到最後大家都沒責任一團和氣黃城那一片祥和大家都沒事那都不用處理任何人這個我覺得沒有辦法理解"},{"start":411.065,"end":436.268,"text":"這個就是調查局的處分調查結果就是也都不用處分北檢也都沒有所以到最後就是大家都沒事所以我剛剛看不管是那個吳司教委員談的或者是其他委員講的都說偵查不公開你們要好好的調查但是每一件調查到最後幾乎沒有人被處分這麼多年來就是地檢署就10個高檢署0個那我也沒有辦法理解說"},{"start":438.699,"end":446.925,"text":"為什麼要這樣做我這邊穿插一個啦我跟部長報告一件事情我自己以前在當警察官的時候曾經有一個案子是一個區公所的員工"},{"start":448.43,"end":476.333,"text":"我跟他問完案子他是一個他治案而已我跟他問完我就要簽結了然後我跟他我也是很客氣的把筆錄問完問完之後他走出去的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句話他說檢察官你知不知道你這一張船票上面是貪污自對條例只是一張船票你害了我一輩子因為他長官馬上把他調調到最邊邊去他家裡面的人整天都在擔心受怕也就是說檢察官的一個作為任何一個"},{"start":477.679,"end":506.808,"text":"任何一個公務員的一個作為也許對一個人的人生是重大的侵害我們真的不能這麼做今天一個案子你涉案了被調查將來可能是還他清白但是在這段時間的這種搞法搞下去你要這些人以後怎麼辦他一輩子就被我們一個輕率的行為給毀了那件事情在我已經應該至少10年前以上的事情但在我心裡一直是一個很大的壓力我想希望"},{"start":508.004,"end":526.083,"text":"部長你能夠告訴所有的同仁不能這樣做你今天你違反偵查不公開你洩漏出去有的人他可能是影響到選情而已但是有的人他可能一輩子受害他家裡面人痛苦每天都在擔心那個收到傳票人的心情我想部長應該也"},{"start":527.624,"end":552.655,"text":"當過檢察官也能夠體會我同意委員的看法所以我們一直要求所有的辦案人員一定要非常的謹慎在處理他所手邊偵查的案件那我們再看一下就是宜蘭縣的案子也是這個林之廟縣長的案子他在111年1月13號聯政組搜索完畢之後隔天就有獨家報導出來"},{"start":554.921,"end":557.868,"text":"馬上獨家報導就出來然後日期什麼、內容什麼全部都洩露出來"},{"start":561.055,"end":586.214,"text":"今天不管是檢察官連政署都是法務部底下那到底這件事有沒有查清楚結果呢我們後來看到宜蘭地檢署查到最後處分人數也是0人再來這又讓我想到上一次我提到的16分鐘沒有錄影結果後來公訴檢察官嗆當事人的事情結果在本案也是也是一件很奇怪的事連政署查也沒有人有責任結果那個"},{"start":589.455,"end":611.421,"text":"醫安地檢署竟然對外的說法是說少數人士或媒體以政治追殺東廠國家機器妄加臆測然後時不足訊那這個是怎麼樣今天公務員不知道誰把東西洩出去了檢察官是檢察官是那個偵查主體"},{"start":612.597,"end":639.471,"text":"指揮連政署自己應該要負最大的責任卻在這個時候去教訓去教訓民眾你們不要來講我壞話這絕對不對的啊這樣下去為什麼其實我今天捍衛的絕對不是誰我今天捍衛的是我們的司法因為這些事情一件一件一件累積下去搞到最後人民對對司法的信任度越來越低這是我不樂見我真的不是要捍衛任何一個人好 那我們再"},{"start":641.772,"end":650.686,"text":"我們再往下看齁其實我想要偵查人員的思維啦發動偵查前我們真的是不希望案子辦不下去但是發動偵查後"},{"start":652.645,"end":673.99,"text":"真的不要也不要走漏風聲很多時候是不是為了邀功是不是為了升遷我們常幹的一些事情就到最後判無罪當事人被判無罪了也都受了一輩子的傷害了那這個檢察官可能為了升遷他升遷成了但是後面很多判無罪嘛我想這個在實務上面我也不多說我也不去指就是"},{"start":674.91,"end":676.551,"text":"現在有一些星光大道我個人也覺得"},{"start":695.964,"end":719.799,"text":"呃 這個 局長 州長也是有一點問題啦雖然他有安定民心的一些作用但是很多時候齁這會不會讓人民產生一些偏見尤其是現在我們是國民法官我們如果讓這些人國民法官他會造成案子的偏見對於司法也不是好事所以呢我們是我這邊引用一個美國的首席大法官的一個"},{"start":721.3,"end":745.977,"text":"他曾經說過的法律難以改變人們的偏見但是不應該為這個偏見服務那更不可以讓人們的偏見是因為這個法律直接或間接讓他產生力量千萬不能用公部門的力量去帶風向或是使人民弄錯了去搞不清楚去對某些事情產生一些預先的想法"},{"start":747.449,"end":765.507,"text":"好那最後再來我們去看一下陽文科這個案子因為今天前面很多人都提了我這邊也不多說但是我覺得這個案子赤裸裸的就是週刊就全部把它爆出來在這邊我沒有說記者怎麼樣記者他本來就是去挖新聞但是"},{"start":766.843,"end":792.635,"text":"今天承辦的是那個新竹縣調站還有那個北基組新竹地檢署就這三個單位也都是法務部底下的那為什麼週刊可以立刻取得一堆資料包括在他家收到多少錢這些細節當天講了什麼週刊都可以報出來我覺得這個是這不可思議啦那在這個案子裡面被害者是"},{"start":793.814,"end":793.834,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":821.687,"end":840.842,"text":"這些案子搞到最後就是為了 呃 變成是帶風向的案子因為這個會影響將來國民法官他在看案子的時候的想法 這都會有影響然後 呃 因為我國啊 總是沒有 我國不像歐洲有 有那個遺忘權啦"},{"start":841.977,"end":861.99,"text":"那所以說很多東西在網路上面就是一輩子的事情這個沒有辦法磨滅那是不是說我們應該要盡量避免讓這個事情發生既然我們有偵查不公開的規定盡量要去嚴守偵查不公開如果事情發生之後你推我我推你每個機關推來推去大家都沒事"},{"start":862.71,"end":891.107,"text":"這個也不對啊就是因為這樣推來推去大家沒事那人民看在眼中就是明明有洩漏的結果但是大家都說我沒事都不關我的事這就是對於那個司法的一個傷害最後我想那個周局長剛剛那個主席翁主席他有提到上銬這個事雖然我跟大家的看法有點不太一樣但是我必須講一個"},{"start":893.601,"end":899.988,"text":"警察、高層、麻煩你們還是要有肩膀在這件事情上面"},{"start":902.243,"end":924.698,"text":"第一時間警方跳出來是說上課違反比例原則要處分對不對第一時間他出來講的是這個當時我是講警察依據檢察官核發的G票當然因為我沒有看過卷我不敢說檢察官G票核發適不適當這個我不評論但是警察依據檢察官核發的G票去對被告上手銬"},{"start":926.004,"end":932.555,"text":"那第一個法律上面第一關是沒有問題的再來有沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":933.888,"end":956.038,"text":"你們高層不可以在不知道的情況下沒有去研究的情況下就說這違反比例原則不能風向往哪裡吹你就往哪裡倒啊我們要挺基層嘛警察也辛苦社工也辛苦但是我們是法治國欸我們應該要一切依照法律來走不要捍衛法律嘛那這個時候是不是先要弄清楚"},{"start":957.065,"end":974.111,"text":"只有在場執行的人他們有裁量權認為當時到底需不需要上手銬長官要先弄清楚當時上手銬的原因我們再來談要不要去處分他那更何況被告如果脫逃的話有個脫逃罪警察是有刑責的所以我認為這個時候"},{"start":975.606,"end":975.646,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員"}]}}}}