{"id":150036,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a2e87720c49b6482325cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6b0f568547c5b28c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:45:34 - 14:02:44","影片長度":"00:17:10","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":1030,"end_time":"2024-03-18T14:02:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T13:45:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1568,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時45分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，部長辛苦了！但我還是要講，從食安一直到社安的問題，我都儘量善意提醒，展現魄力，立即應變，錯誤修正，然後事權要統一啦！督導跟執行兩造的情況之下，有時候會因為一個案件之後搞得非常地模糊，這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為，所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對。包含食安，我覺得該懲處的單位或是對象都必須接受懲處，因為過去食安的問題，過去兒虐的問題，都不是現在才發生，過去修正的相關法律及訂定的相關制度，基本上應該都要能夠接受這樣的考驗，但是顯然這一次好像又漏洞百出，那我是從早上一直到現在，還有這幾天看了一些資料，我有幾件事情跟部長來做討論，也讓部長做參考。","很多人都說這一次又是社會安全網破洞，我個人倒不是這麼認為，在社會安全網裡面，我們有很多的法律、資源、機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全地成長，但是因為人為的因素，沒有能夠及時啟動跟做相關連結的時候，導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面，他卻受到最痛苦的折磨。第一個時間我們去接住了，也沒有漏接啊！怎麼會讓他在我們公部門認定為安全網的範圍裡面，反而他是得到極盡地虐待，我們卻渾然不知，都要到事後才知道這樣的情況？這顯然是一個非常嚴重的問題，所以政府存在的目的，然後建立了這麼多的機制，過去的慘痛經驗，怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情？而且也不是政府主動去發覺，不是政府任何一個單位、任何一個機關去發覺的，我覺得這個事情真的非常需要好好地檢討，這是第一點。","第二點，第一個時間接住了，有新北市政府，有臺北市政府，有兒福機構，大家怎麼會覺得把他安置好了就鬆懈掉了，就沒事了？這是很奇怪的行為。衛福部在109年推動所謂的幼兒專責醫師制度，只要是脆弱家庭，今天很多委員都有提到，我看了細節應該是這樣，脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象，然後由縣市政府社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局，但這名受虐的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動，對不對？完全沒有啟動這個幼兒專責醫師制度，甚至於早上的時候，在內政委員會有某位委員問了警政署署長，有接獲這個案件的通報嗎？也沒有，所以從社政到衛政到警政，到底什麼環節出問題，部長應該有掌握了吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["劉委員建國：這是一件事情。第二件事情，我們是依據行政院哦！當時為什麼會制定這個？107年2月26日核定強化社會安全網計畫內容，脆弱家庭的定義很清楚，這邊都寫得很清楚，我就不再贅述，最後一句話非常重要，「而需多重支持與服務介入的家庭」，我現在講的這兩個單位統統不知道，渾然不知這個事情，這次是離譜極致耶！哪一個環節出問題？你們的檢討報告裡面，有針對這個部分提出來嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["劉委員建國：這是第二件事情。第三件事情，我們再看，因為這個白紙黑字寫得很清楚，根據媒體的報導可以知道，小朋友的生母在2021年因為妨礙自由跟持有毒品，被收押看守所，當時懷有5個月身孕。2022年，隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影。2023年6月被法院通緝。這有三個時間點，這三個時間點，警政、衛政都有連結到嗎？如果沒有連結到，出了什麼問題？這個有檢討嗎？這是第三件事情。","最後一個問題，新北市或臺北市的兒福只要一個單位，就算是在去年6月發布通緝時，有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的憾事嘛！應該是這樣，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：最後，我想人原本就不是神，一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後，大家一起來看顧這個小朋友，不管是從社工、醫師、老師、村里長甚至警政，多方來看，我覺得這個事情就不會發生嘛！所以哪一個環節出問題，坦白講，我從早上到現在，我很仔細聽部長、署長的回應，我幾乎好像沒有聽到重點，請回應，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，哪一個環節出了問題，其實是有多個環節都出了問題。"],["劉委員建國：很多的環節都出了問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別提出來。","委員剛剛問到的問題，其實第一個，這個社福中心，也就是新北市它的社福中心在接受這個家庭，包括一開始他的母親懷孕，因為在看守所，所以她就表示想要把小孩子出養，但是後來她生下來之後，這個媽媽就不見了，所以社福中心的工作人員就把整個精力放在怎麼樣完成收養，他就一直去找這個祖母協調，說要改定監護人，因為收養必須要有監護人同意，所以他整個工作重點變成放在那個地方，忘了真正要處理的其實是小孩子。","小孩子的問題是當務之急，是最重要的一件事情，但是新北市社福中心去處理的卻是收養相關的同意權問題，所以他把小孩子的照顧一下子就丟給兒福聯盟，等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了，這一個環節是新北市這邊，到現在為止，新北市也還沒結案耶！小孩子都過世那麼久了，新北市這個案子還沒結案，所以這裡出來的第一個問題就是地方政府在處理類似工作的時候，沒有把重點放對，重點是要保護小孩子，重點不是要去取得同意，因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳的照顧，這個也沒有評估啊！這是第一點。第二點的話……"],["劉委員建國：部長，請說快一點，有時間的問題。抱歉，我儘量……"],["薛部長瑞元：因為委員的指責……"],["主席：今天有多給委員時間。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二點，兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候也沒有做很好的評估。第一階段本來是媽媽要委託，當時就結案；後來祖母得到監護權，她仍然希望要出養，所以社會局就找兒福聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置問題。","第二個問題就是因為在這個過程當中，他的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保姆，幫她照顧了一年，這一年當中沒有什麼問題，但是兒福聯盟接手之後，卻把這個小孩子從原來保姆的手中移開，交給另外一個縣市的保姆照顧，這樣子的行為就非常奇怪。"],["劉委員建國：對，為什麼會有這樣的行為發生？我就是要聽部長講這一段。為什麼會這樣？為什麼沒有遵照原有的監護人意念希望讓舊的保姆來繼續來照顧這個小朋友？為什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來就是這樣子，這在我們的報告裡面其實也稍微有提到。因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構，第一個，它沒有自己經營的照護機構。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：也沒有自己經營的寄養家庭。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：也沒有自己的保姆，所以它就必須要跟一些保姆合作。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：對於這種合作模式，兒福聯盟自己認為不是契約關係，所以它不想或者是沒有能力對於保姆進行監督管理，在這樣的情形之下，原來的保姆費用一個月要3萬元，後來轉過去的保姆費用一個月是2萬5千元，這中間這些費用是由兒福聯盟出錢。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：這就是一個問題，我們未來就要切掉這個部分。"],["劉委員建國：所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品？誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道是不是這個原因。"],["劉委員建國：你現在講的內容，我聽起來就這個樣子。"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道是不是這個原因，但這是一個可能的原因。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：是可能的動機，所以我們現在就把這個部分切掉，我們現在要求地方來做這件事情，地方本來就有委託安置的系統，所以就由地方決定將小孩子送到哪裡去，就在地方的系統裡。因為地方政府會定期或者有機制地對系統做monitor，去監督裡面的執行狀況是什麼樣子，所以這個部分也是我們未來要檢討改善的一個重要機制。"],["劉委員建國：所以今天發生小朋友的生命不見了，坦白講就是個命案。所以間接不尊重監護人的意願，然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆，這算不算間接殺人？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不敢這樣講。"],["劉委員建國：這是其一。其二，為什麼可以這樣的不尊重原監護人？而且已經由原保姆照顧一年多了，這樣建立起來的信賴關係竟然可以否決，只因為3萬元到2萬5千元之間的差異？我們的政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道是不是因為這個差異而引起。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，我當然是在跟部長討論，因為我聽你講的過程裡感覺原因應該就是這樣而已，簡單講就是這樣，我不是要把它簡化。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我要把這個可能的原因切斷，以後不要再發生這件事情。"],["劉委員建國：我知道部長在12月的時候召開專案會議有6點的結論，第一個結論就這麼講了，未來如有出養必要，不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養後訪視工作全部交給民間團體來執行，對不對？這是你們的第一點結論，你覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：前面對啦！後面應該不是對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是至少要做到的啦！至少要做到。"],["劉委員建國：你看嘛！我們等到這事情發生才驚覺不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養後訪視工作全部交給民間團體，我問句話，只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎？還有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，其實並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得這樣子不妥。在兒權法目前進行修法的過程當中，我們已經有提出問題，但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟一些地方政府反對這樣做，他們還是覺得維持現狀比較好。OK，現在事情發生了，所以我想，在過去修法當中，反對把事情由單純一個民間團體統包的概念，以及將中間有一些必須要決定的事情移到政府機關，是必要的。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：未來在修法的時候，我們也希望委員能夠支持這樣子的做法。"],["劉委員建國：OK，我們也可以請召委來安排擴大的全國各縣市會議嘛！對不對？看哪幾個縣市在反對嘛！從什麼時候開始反對一直到現在，出了這事情看它還要不要持續反對嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：是跟這個事件有關。"],["劉委員建國：對，沒有錯啊！應該可以吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是說反對的縣市就跟這個事件有關。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！就當場在這邊講啊！就會很清楚嘛！另外一件事情，我剛剛一直強調問道只有這些不能而已嗎？請部長看一個資料，這是慈濟大學社工系的一個副教授所講，瑞典、丹麥、荷蘭等國，在申請收養部分是由政府把關，由政府接受收養人申請、完整審查及調查事宜，並提供親職準備課程及核發準收養人收養許可，相關的課程內容及品質、資格審查的標準都一致，不會有機構落差。","而臺灣目前是由各收養的機構自行安排課程，以致申請收養者必須到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程，同時，收出養媒合的機構評估標準不一，整個收養的服務價格也存在落差。怎樣落差你們都知道吧？兒福好像10萬元嘛！對不對？還有其他縣市，我就不寫了啦！有12萬元、10萬1,000元、也有7萬元的服務價差，怎麼會這樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這也是這一次修法，我們希望……"],["劉委員建國：這次修法？這種狀況有沒有在你這次修法討論的重點裡？"],["李次長麗芬：已經納進去了。"],["薛部長瑞元：已經有納進來。"],["劉委員建國：已經有納進來？在6點裡面有嗎？沒有啦！"],["李次長麗芬：兒少權法的修法。"],["薛部長瑞元：在討論草案的時候，我們已經有把這一點放進來了。"],["劉委員建國：在你們的報告中還有講到一點，因為今天報告被退回去了嘛！但我還是有翻了幾頁，針對通盤報告中第一點，為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突，未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李次長麗芬：這個修法也有。"],["薛部長瑞元：就是剛剛講到的，有一些……"],["劉委員建國：這樣的評估會不會又形成22個縣市不一樣的標準？"],["薛部長瑞元：對於要評估什麼樣的內容，我們當然會建立統一的標準，個案本來就是評估出來的結果不會一樣。"],["劉委員建國：是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準？是建立嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：立足的立嘛！對嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛講的這幾點，好不好？因為時間也過了一些了，我提供了幾個點，我希望從部長這邊做起，可以更加重視，是不是也可以列在你們的檢討報告裡面，做個具體的回應？好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：至於要開擴大會議，我覺得勢在必行，越快越好。王召委願意排最好，對不對？如果沒有，看要再找誰趕快召開，我們來參與。看是什麼狀況，大家一起面對、共同討論解決，可不可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢，有關兒少權法的修法，請衛福部加快腳步，把相關的法案送進衛環委員會來審議。","接下來我們請伍麗華委員進行質詢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（14點3分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。您應該聽過原家中心吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它的全名是原住民族家庭服務中心，這個原家中心是由原民會所設置。已經設置26年，而且現在都會加原鄉已經有64處的原家中心。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：過去原家中心還沒有被納入社會安全網的時候，其實大家都會說原家中心跟社安網的關係叫做網中網，因為它設立的目標，就是要針對我們部落原住民福利資訊跟資源整合不足所形成的障礙，那些被漏接的地方、像微血管末稍的地方，等於是在部落擔負起這樣的責任。首先我要特別感謝衛福部，因為過去由原民會來設置，其實經費很拮据、很辛苦，特別在此感謝。我們是預定在2025年要納入社安網，對不對？"],["簡署長慧娟：今年會先納入。"],["薛部長瑞元：今年先納入。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：今年送到行政院了嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：已經核定了嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：還沒。"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還沒核定，那目前在衛福部嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：已經送到行政院了……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：已經送進行政院了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒，修正計畫還沒送……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還在修正計畫嗎？那今天我來就是要做一些提醒，為什麼？因為今天我看到專報裡面有社安網第2期計畫112年、針對今年度的資源布建情形、重要推動成果、策進作為，但我都沒有看見關於原家中心轉型納入社安網的說明。我為什麼要這樣講？因為其實有很多的母機構，很多原家中心的督導，以及很多社工的教授專家，還有這些關心的人，他們跟我陳情很久了，因為他們很高興，大家都高興，原家中心終於要納入社安網，不但經費可以變多，人力的配置應該也會變多，我們都很高興。但是大家憂心的是什麼？人心惶惶，聽說會不會納入到縣市政府底下？這個就很需要跟大家做說明。","部長曾經待過地方政府，屏東有9個原鄉，你做過那裡的衛生局長，你應該很了解，我們設立原健法其實最重要納入的精神就是文化安全，文化敏感度很重要，如果我們納入一般縣市政府的體制下，其工作模式會變成是像一般在社福中心，然後針對那些脆弱家庭，比較針對個案、開案，可是原家中心這二、三十年在地方，部長應該很了解，它是在部落，它是整個部落的關係，它不會針對個案，它會知道個案在部落裡面跟親友的關係，然後它會擔負一個很重要的使命，對於很多政策，包括福利政策也好，他們都可以用在地的語言、親近的語言去代表政府來做這些宣導。像這樣的工作模式，我們會比較想要提醒，因為目前問原民會也好，大概只有報經費和報大原則，可是完全都看不出未來的工作模式到底是怎麼樣，大家都很擔心害怕。所以至少我們要知道必須維持它的文化性跟主體性，因為大家都說，這些年好不容易我們在回頭找部落的照顧模式，可是如果國家的制度一進來介入，又會把它給破壞掉，這是大家憂心的。另外是有關開案指標的訂定，到底KPI怎麼樣，還有社工人力的配置，以及轉型之後的職能教育訓練怎麼做等等。我在此想要請衛福部幫忙一下，因為很多人關心，而且看不到、看不見，也沒有具體的說明，所以我就代為在這個地方提出這樣的提醒。因為目前是修正，還沒有送院，所以是不是可以針對我以上所提出來這些代表性的憂慮，在兩週內提出詳細的回答，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，兩週內回答當然是可以，但是這回答可能不完全，因為現在方向上就是要把原家中心納入社安網裡面，這個是絕對的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，大家也都樂見其成。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個，原家中心納入之後要怎麼樣去做處理，這整個設計是在原民會，所以我們要看原民會的設計是如何。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為你們是審查單位啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們部會之間不會去做特別的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那你們要他們提修正計畫是什麼意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是我們就放進去，然後交給行政院去做審查，所以我們是把各部會的意見，就是他們想要如何做的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們的意思就是會完全尊重原民會所提出來的規劃？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，最後是行政院那邊去做決定，內容是由行政院來做決定，這是第二點。","第三點，委員提到這樣會不會干擾到原來的，就是把社安網交給縣市政府是不是……因為現在這整個系統如果要納進來，這裡面就變成它是社福中心的角色，社福中心有公權力行使的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在當然原家中心……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這個就是我們要提醒的地方。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是沒有辦法，你如果要有公權力行使的話，你必須要具備公權力行使的資格，這是沒有辦法的，所以不能說我希望要能夠有好處……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，這就是我下一個部分要講的問題。我們就知道會有這樣的原因，就是要按照規定、按照規定，我舉一個例子，因為今天是來討論，那我就講剴剴事件，我以原住民來講，這是真實的案例。這個孩子在109年10月出生，目前是4歲，他的父母因為養不起，所以把孩子分別交給不同的親戚，這個親戚在剴剴出生幾個月的時候就帶回去照顧，一直到今天。我口誤了，這個孩子不是剴剴。但是當這個孩子3歲的時候，這個照顧的親戚就決定要收養，就去跟法院申請要收養，但是地方法院回復他要按照收出養的辦法，就是兒少收養認可案件調查訪視評估報告，所以建議他要去做機構的媒合，可是他說他兩次去跟媒合中心聯繫，最後他覺得他沒有辦法，因為他是六親等以外，所以被駁回。後來說要到媒合中心，可是他知道媒合中心不會把孩子配給他，而他希望地方法院判給他，可是目前是第二次駁回，法院還是一樣載明寫著還是要依照兒少法的規定，也就是他沒有符合第十六條。","現在我就是要跟部長說，這就是很麻煩的地方，因為他是布農族，布農族是一個家族、氏族的一個概念。我浪費一點點時間跟您說明一下，每一個族群都有不同的照顧模式，布農族的照顧方法是這樣，他們是同一個家族可以分散到臺東、南投、高雄。部長，我跟您說，當他們殺豬的時候，比如同一個家名叫Takisvilainan這個家族，在殺豬的時候，他是高雄人，他要分到臺東的親人，分到南投的親人；反之，不是同一個家族，就算是隔壁鄰居也分不到豬肉，他們是這樣子去確保他們的親屬關係。我現在要說的是，這個小孩的確是他的家人，這個小孩的媽媽跟收養人的曾祖父、曾祖母是親兄妹，但是他跟這個孩子就是七親等，就脫離了我們法制規定的六親等。那現在偏偏要弄一個收出養的評估報告，我就是希望現在原健法都已經納入文化安全的概念，是不是這個收出養的評估報告也要有文化安全的概念啊？要修一下嘛！至少要跟那些人講嘛，是不是？","另外就是要檢討這個媒合機制，為什麼這個家長很生氣，他說兩次都叫他要去跟媒合中心聯繫，他就不要啊，他寧可不要，他繼續照顧好了，就算這個孩子沒有登記在他的名下，反正就照顧到孩子長大。他怎麼會願意讓孩子去給外面的人帶呢？可是按照法規就不行，而且在部落裡面，這些親戚是整個部落一起養這個孩子，也不會出現問題。所以我在這邊要提出的是，這個部分我們原健法已經有納入文化安全，我覺得該修的地方就是檢討媒合的機制，要有族群的概念進來，收出養的評估報告也希望去做檢討，好不好？","因為時間到了，我希望衛福部會同原民會，兩週內針對原家中心納入社安網提出一個衝擊影響評估報告，過去的母機構陪伴二、三十年怎麼辦？為了一個公權力，這是國家的制度，我要講的就是這個。其實每一個族群都有不同的照顧模式，我覺得我們要尊重，如果我們一直在硬邦邦的法制底下去思考問題，我們會把好不容易建立起來的東西又破壞掉，也希望針對報告裡面提到的人力配置經費、編制工作模式，在兩週內一起提出報告，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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00:01:59,824\n在社會安全網裡面我們有很多的法律支援機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全的成長但是因為人為的因素因為人為的因素沒有能夠及時的啟動跟做相關的這些連結的時候所以導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面他卻受到最痛苦的折磨然後第一個時間我們去接觸了也沒有漏接怎麼會讓他在這個\n\n6\n00:02:01,698 --> 00:02:01,938\n這顯然是一個非常嚴重的一個問題\n\n7\n00:02:19,679 --> 00:02:42,492\n所以政府存在的目的然後建立了這麼多的機制過去的產動經驗怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情而且也不是政府主動去發掘不是任何任何一個單位任何一個機關去發掘的我覺得這事情是真的非常需要好好的檢討這第一點那第二點第一個時間接觸了\n\n8\n00:02:44,557 --> 00:03:00,372\n有新北市政府、有台北市政府、有兒童機構怎麼會好像大家覺得把它安置好了就鬆懈掉了都沒問題啦這很奇怪的行為啦這很奇怪的行為為什麼不在109年齁\n\n9\n00:03:02,703 --> 00:03:20,950\n來推動所謂幼兒專責醫師制度只要是脆弱家庭今天很多委員都有提到我看的細節應該是這樣齁脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象然後由縣市政府社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局但\n\n10\n00:03:23,172 --> 00:03:45,783\n這名狩獵的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動對不對完全沒有啟動嘛齁這個幼兒專者的遺失制度甚至於早上的時候在內政委員會有某委員問警政署署長有接獲這個案件通報嗎也沒有也沒有齁所以從社政到衛政到警政到底什麼環節出問題部長應該應該有掌握了吧\n\n11\n00:03:50,804 --> 00:04:11,869\n這是一件事情那第二件事情再來我們是依據行政院喔當時為什麼會制定這個107年2月6號合併強化社會安全網計畫內容出入家庭的定義很清楚這邊都寫進去我就不再贅述最後一句話非常重要而需多重支持與服務介入這個家庭人家講這兩個單位通通不知道渾然不知這個事情\n\n12\n00:04:19,229 --> 00:04:21,655\n這是離譜其次哪一個環節出問題?你們的檢討報告裡面有針對這部分提出來嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:28,609 --> 00:04:51,628\n這是第二件事情第三件事情我們再看因為這個白紙一字寫清楚根據媒體的報導可以知道小朋友的生母2021年因為房外置疑而持有毒品被收押看守所當時懷孕有5個月生育2022年隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影2023年令月被法院通緝這有三個時間點這三個時間點警政、衛政\n\n14\n00:04:59,346 --> 00:05:02,415\n都有連結到嗎?若沒有連結到,出了什麼問題?這個有檢討嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:05,685 --> 00:05:30,914\n這是第三件事情最後一個問題新北市或台北市的兒虎只要一個單位就算是他在去年6月發布通緝時有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的一個憾事應該是這樣對不對然後最後我想人原本就不是神一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後大家一起來看顧這個小朋友\n\n16\n00:05:31,454 --> 00:05:33,576\n韓白講我從早上到現在我很仔細聽部長也好署長也好的回應我幾乎好像沒有聽到重點\n\n17\n00:05:50,492 --> 00:05:54,216\n哪一個環節出了問題?其實是有多個環節都出了問題所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別都提出來\n\n18\n00:06:06,169 --> 00:06:30,395\n那委員剛剛問到的問題其實就是第一個這個社福中心也就新北市社福中心在接受這一個家庭包括說一開始的時候他的母親就懷孕因為在看守所所以他就表示說想要把小孩子出養\n\n19\n00:06:31,923 --> 00:06:48,906\n但是後來他生下來之後,這媽媽就不見了,就不見了。所以社福中心的社工的工作人員,就把整個的經歷放在說,怎麼樣完成這個收養。\n\n20\n00:06:50,356 --> 00:07:07,147\n所以他就一直去找這個祖母去協調說要改變監護人因為生養必須要有監護人的同意嘛所以他整個的工作重點變成放在那個地方忘了說其實真正要處理的是小孩子\n\n21\n00:07:08,107 --> 00:07:25,506\n小孩子的問題是當務之急是最重要的一件事情但是新北市社會福利中心去處理的卻是他的收養相關的這個同意權的這個問題所以他只把這個小孩子照顧就一下子就丟給兒福聯盟\n\n22\n00:07:29,053 --> 00:07:47,622\n然後就等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了這一個環節是新北市這邊到現在為止新北市也還沒結案小孩子過世那麼久新北市的這個案子還沒結案所以這裡就是第一個問題出來就是說\n\n23\n00:07:50,603 --> 00:08:11,392\n我們的地方政府在處理這類似的工作的時候沒有把重點放對重點是要保護小孩子重點不是說要去取得這個同意因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳照顧這個也沒有評估啊這是第一點\n\n24\n00:08:12,792 --> 00:08:24,720\n第二點的話,兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候,他也沒有做得很好的一個評估也就是說他有兩度,第一階段的時候是因為本來是媽媽要去委託,後來就結案掉\n\n25\n00:08:38,888 --> 00:09:02,944\n後來就是祖母得到這個監護權之後他仍然希望就是說這個要出養所以仍然去找到兒父聯盟那個社會局就找兒父聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置的問題好第二個問題就因為在這個過程當中他的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保母幫他照顧了一年\n\n26\n00:09:04,273 --> 00:09:20,626\n這一年當中的話沒有什麼樣的問題但是兒福聯盟接手之後的話卻把這個小孩子從這個原來這個保母的手中把他移開交給另外在他的另外一個縣市的保母來做照顧\n\n27\n00:09:21,767 --> 00:09:27,609\n那這樣子的行為就非常的奇怪為什麼會有這樣的行為發生我就是要聽部長講這一段為什麼可以這樣為什麼沒有尊重原有的監護人的意念是希望讓舊的保母來繼續來保護、照顧這個小朋友為什麼\n\n28\n00:09:38,278 --> 00:09:52,453\n本來就是這樣子那這在我們的報告裡面其實也稍微有提到因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構來講的話第二他自己沒有自己的\n\n29\n00:09:53,234 --> 00:09:55,055\n對於這一個保姆去做這個監督管理\n\n30\n00:10:17,478 --> 00:10:39,796\n所以當他有這樣的情形之下的話那原來的這個保姆的話他一個月要3萬塊他後來轉過去的這個保姆的話一個月是2萬5那這中間這些錢是由兒福聯盟出錢的是所以這個就是一個問題那我們未來這個就要切掉\n\n31\n00:10:41,736 --> 00:11:05,565\n所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品然後誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理我不知道是不是這個原因啦我不知道是不是這個原因啦但是這是一個可能的原因可能的動機所以我們現在就把這個東西切掉我們現在要求地方來做這件事情地方本來就委託安置這樣子一個系統\n\n32\n00:11:06,385 --> 00:11:29,698\n所以就地方來決定這小孩子要送到哪裡去就在他的系統裡面去因為這個系統地方政府會就是說定期或者有機制去做monitor去監督他的這個裡面的執行的狀況是什麼樣子所以這一個部分也是我們重要的一個未來要去檢討改善的一個機制\n\n33\n00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:46,173\n所以今天發生小朋友生命不見了,就是一條,坦白講就是一個命案嘛。所以這個間接的不尊重當事人、政府人的意願,然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆的,這算不算間接殺人?\n\n34\n00:11:47,673 --> 00:12:07,139\n這我是不敢這樣講這是其一啦齁其二為什麼可以這麼樣的不去尊重這個原有監護人而且已經有這個照顧保母一年多的這樣的信賴的這樣建立起來這樣的關係然後可以把他火絕掉是因為三萬到兩萬五之間的差異然後我們政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生\n\n35\n00:12:07,839 --> 00:12:28,004\n我不知道說是不是這個差異引起這樣子的...我知道我當然是跟部長在討論嘛因為我聽你這麼講的過程裡面就是...就是如此...就是應該就這樣而已嘛簡單講就這樣嘛我不是要把它簡化啦齁因為...所以我要把這個線...這個原因可能的原因要把它切斷啦以後不要...所以你們在...對我知道部長這12月的時候召開專論會議就是6點的結論第一個結論就這麼講了嘛\n\n36\n00:12:31,405 --> 00:12:37,733\n未來有出養必要,不能將評估沒可暫時安置及收養或仿視工作,全部交給民間團體來執行。\n\n37\n00:12:47,841 --> 00:13:03,987\n至少要做到你看嘛,我們等到這事件發生,我們不才發覺精確發覺到不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養、後紡釋工作全部交給民間團體嘛我才問一句話,只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎?還有吧?\n\n38\n00:13:05,968 --> 00:13:26,945\n跟委員報告其實這件事情並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得說這樣子不妥其實在兒權法目前進行的修法的過程當中我們已經提出來但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟有一些地方政府是反對這樣做\n\n39\n00:13:28,618 --> 00:13:51,314\n他一直覺得維持現在的是比較好,那現在事情發生了所以我想這個在過去修法當中在反對說把這個事情由單純一個民間團體統包的這樣概念把它中間有一些必須要去決定的事情移到這個政府機關來是必要的\n\n40\n00:13:52,554 --> 00:14:01,037\n這個是未來在修法的時候,我們也希望說委員能夠來支持這樣子的一個做法。跟這個有關的。我是說反對的縣市就跟這個有關\n\n41\n00:14:18,803 --> 00:14:27,717\n是嘛,就當場在這邊講啊,就會很清楚嘛。另外一件事情,我想我剛剛一直強調說,只有這些,只有這些不冷而已嗎?\n\n42\n00:14:29,793 --> 00:14:52,596\n部長看了一個資料這個是慈禧大學一個社工系的副教授講的在瑞典、丹麥、河南等國在申請收養部分是由政府把關由政府接受收養申請、完成審查及調查事宜並提供親子準備課程及核發準收養的收養許可相關的課程內容這個審查的標準都一致沒有機構落差然後目前\n\n43\n00:14:53,797 --> 00:15:15,536\n台灣目前是由各收養的機構進行安排課程以至於申請收養者一定得到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程且同時輸出養媒合的機構評估標準不一整個收養的服務價格也存著落差怎樣落差你們都知道吧\n\n44\n00:15:16,636 --> 00:15:22,080\n所以這個也是這一次修法我們希望去...已經有納進來的在六點裡面有嗎?沒有啦!兒少全法的修法\n\n45\n00:15:40,188 --> 00:16:05,054\n在討論那個草案的時候已經有把這一點我們已經放進來了你還講一點齁在你們報告中因為今天被退回去了嘛齁但是還是有翻了幾頁嘛針對休養通盤報告中第一點為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理對這個修法員嗎\n\n46\n00:16:12,457 --> 00:16:33,808\n這個評估會不會又有22個縣市又有不一樣的標準?我們當然會建立統一的標準,這一個評估要評估什麼樣的東西,但是個案本來就是評估出來的結果不會一樣是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準?建立嘛,立主的立嘛\n\n47\n00:16:37,216 --> 00:16:42,600\n我剛剛講的這幾點好不好?是不是因為時間也過了一些了齁?\n\n48\n00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:43,936\n好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6085\t26761\t謝主席,有請部長。好,來有請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長辛苦啦。但我還是要講,從那個食安一直到食安的問題,我都儘量善意提醒,展現魄力,立即應變,錯誤修正,\n30236\t36843\t這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為。所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對,包含思安。\n51411\t51431\t委員長\n70543\t71343\t我個人倒不是這麼認為。\n92148\t119824\t在社會安全網裡面我們有很多的法律支援機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全的成長但是因為人為的因素因為人為的因素沒有能夠及時的啟動跟做相關的這些連結的時候所以導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面他卻受到最痛苦的折磨然後第一個時間我們去接觸了也沒有漏接怎麼會讓他在這個\n121698\t121938\t這顯然是一個非常嚴重的一個問題\n139679\t162492\t所以政府存在的目的然後建立了這麼多的機制過去的產動經驗怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情而且也不是政府主動去發掘不是任何任何一個單位任何一個機關去發掘的我覺得這事情是真的非常需要好好的檢討這第一點那第二點第一個時間接觸了\n164557\t180372\t有新北市政府、有台北市政府、有兒童機構怎麼會好像大家覺得把它安置好了就鬆懈掉了都沒問題啦這很奇怪的行為啦這很奇怪的行為為什麼不在109年齁\n182703\t200950\t來推動所謂幼兒專責醫師制度只要是脆弱家庭今天很多委員都有提到我看的細節應該是這樣齁脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象然後由縣市政府社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局但\n203172\t225783\t這名狩獵的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動對不對完全沒有啟動嘛齁這個幼兒專者的遺失制度甚至於早上的時候在內政委員會有某委員問警政署署長有接獲這個案件通報嗎也沒有也沒有齁所以從社政到衛政到警政到底什麼環節出問題部長應該應該有掌握了吧\n230804\t251869\t這是一件事情那第二件事情再來我們是依據行政院喔當時為什麼會制定這個107年2月6號合併強化社會安全網計畫內容出入家庭的定義很清楚這邊都寫進去我就不再贅述最後一句話非常重要而需多重支持與服務介入這個家庭人家講這兩個單位通通不知道渾然不知這個事情\n259229\t261655\t這是離譜其次哪一個環節出問題?你們的檢討報告裡面有針對這部分提出來嗎?\n268609\t291628\t這是第二件事情第三件事情我們再看因為這個白紙一字寫清楚根據媒體的報導可以知道小朋友的生母2021年因為房外置疑而持有毒品被收押看守所當時懷孕有5個月生育2022年隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影2023年令月被法院通緝這有三個時間點這三個時間點警政、衛政\n299346\t302415\t都有連結到嗎?若沒有連結到,出了什麼問題?這個有檢討嗎?\n305685\t330914\t這是第三件事情最後一個問題新北市或台北市的兒虎只要一個單位就算是他在去年6月發布通緝時有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的一個憾事應該是這樣對不對然後最後我想人原本就不是神一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後大家一起來看顧這個小朋友\n331454\t333576\t韓白講我從早上到現在我很仔細聽部長也好署長也好的回應我幾乎好像沒有聽到重點\n350492\t354216\t哪一個環節出了問題?其實是有多個環節都出了問題所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別都提出來\n366169\t390395\t那委員剛剛問到的問題其實就是第一個這個社福中心也就新北市社福中心在接受這一個家庭包括說一開始的時候他的母親就懷孕因為在看守所所以他就表示說想要把小孩子出養\n391923\t408906\t但是後來他生下來之後,這媽媽就不見了,就不見了。所以社福中心的社工的工作人員,就把整個的經歷放在說,怎麼樣完成這個收養。\n410356\t427147\t所以他就一直去找這個祖母去協調說要改變監護人因為生養必須要有監護人的同意嘛所以他整個的工作重點變成放在那個地方忘了說其實真正要處理的是小孩子\n428107\t445506\t小孩子的問題是當務之急是最重要的一件事情但是新北市社會福利中心去處理的卻是他的收養相關的這個同意權的這個問題所以他只把這個小孩子照顧就一下子就丟給兒福聯盟\n449053\t467622\t然後就等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了這一個環節是新北市這邊到現在為止新北市也還沒結案小孩子過世那麼久新北市的這個案子還沒結案所以這裡就是第一個問題出來就是說\n470603\t491392\t我們的地方政府在處理這類似的工作的時候沒有把重點放對重點是要保護小孩子重點不是說要去取得這個同意因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳照顧這個也沒有評估啊這是第一點\n492792\t504720\t第二點的話,兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候,他也沒有做得很好的一個評估也就是說他有兩度,第一階段的時候是因為本來是媽媽要去委託,後來就結案掉\n518888\t542944\t後來就是祖母得到這個監護權之後他仍然希望就是說這個要出養所以仍然去找到兒父聯盟那個社會局就找兒父聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置的問題好 第二個問題就因為在這個過程當中他的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保母幫他照顧了一年\n544273\t560626\t這一年當中的話沒有什麼樣的問題但是兒福聯盟接手之後的話卻把這個小孩子從這個原來這個保母的手中把他移開交給另外在他的另外一個縣市的保母來做照顧\n561767\t567609\t那這樣子的行為就非常的奇怪為什麼會有這樣的行為發生我就是要聽部長講這一段為什麼可以這樣為什麼沒有尊重原有的監護人的意念是希望讓舊的保母來繼續來保護、照顧這個小朋友為什麼\n578278\t592453\t本來就是這樣子那這在我們的報告裡面其實也稍微有提到因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構來講的話第二他自己沒有自己的\n593234\t595055\t對於這一個保姆去做這個監督管理\n617478\t639796\t所以當他有這樣的情形之下的話那原來的這個保姆的話他一個月要3萬塊他後來轉過去的這個保姆的話一個月是2萬5那這中間這些錢是由兒福聯盟出錢的是所以這個就是一個問題那我們未來這個就要切掉\n641736\t665565\t所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品然後誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理我不知道是不是這個原因啦我不知道是不是這個原因啦但是這是一個可能的原因可能的動機所以我們現在就把這個東西切掉我們現在要求地方來做這件事情地方本來就委託安置這樣子一個系統\n666385\t689698\t所以就地方來決定這小孩子要送到哪裡去就在他的系統裡面去因為這個系統地方政府會就是說定期或者有機制去做monitor去監督他的這個裡面的執行的狀況是什麼樣子所以這一個部分也是我們重要的一個未來要去檢討改善的一個機制\n690919\t706173\t所以今天發生小朋友生命不見了,就是一條,坦白講就是一個命案嘛。所以這個間接的不尊重當事人、政府人的意願,然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆的,這算不算間接殺人?\n707673\t727139\t這我是不敢這樣講這是其一啦齁其二為什麼可以這麼樣的不去尊重這個原有監護人而且已經有這個照顧保母一年多的這樣的信賴的這樣建立起來這樣的關係然後可以把他火絕掉是因為三萬到兩萬五之間的差異然後我們政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生\n727839\t748004\t我不知道說是不是這個差異引起這樣子的...我知道我當然是跟部長在討論嘛因為我聽你這麼講的過程裡面就是...就是如此...就是應該就這樣而已嘛簡單講就這樣嘛我不是要把它簡化啦齁因為...所以我要把這個線...這個原因可能的原因要把它切斷啦以後不要...所以你們在...對我知道部長這12月的時候召開專論會議就是6點的結論第一個結論就這麼講了嘛\n751405\t757733\t未來有出養必要,不能將評估沒可暫時安置及收養或仿視工作,全部交給民間團體來執行。\n767841\t783987\t至少要做到你看嘛,我們等到這事件發生,我們不才發覺精確發覺到不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養、後紡釋工作全部交給民間團體嘛我才問一句話,只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎?還有吧?\n785968\t806945\t跟委員報告其實這件事情並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得說這樣子不妥其實在兒權法目前進行的修法的過程當中我們已經提出來但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟有一些地方政府是反對這樣做\n808618\t831314\t他一直覺得維持現在的是比較好,那現在事情發生了所以我想這個在過去修法當中在反對說把這個事情由單純一個民間團體統包的這樣概念把它中間有一些必須要去決定的事情移到這個政府機關來是必要的\n832554\t841037\t這個是未來在修法的時候,我們也希望說委員能夠來支持這樣子的一個做法。跟這個有關的。我是說反對的縣市就跟這個有關\n858803\t867717\t是嘛,就當場在這邊講啊,就會很清楚嘛。另外一件事情,我想我剛剛一直強調說,只有這些,只有這些不冷而已嗎?\n869793\t892596\t部長看了一個資料這個是慈禧大學一個社工系的副教授講的在瑞典、丹麥、河南等國在申請收養部分是由政府把關由政府接受收養申請、完成審查及調查事宜並提供親子準備課程及核發準收養的收養許可相關的課程內容這個審查的標準都一致沒有機構落差然後目前\n893797\t915536\t台灣目前是由各收養的機構進行安排課程以至於申請收養者一定得到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程且同時輸出養媒合的機構評估標準不一整個收養的服務價格也存著落差怎樣落差你們都知道吧\n916636\t922080\t所以這個也是這一次修法我們希望去...已經有納進來的在六點裡面有嗎?沒有啦!兒少全法的修法\n940188\t965054\t在討論那個草案的時候已經有把這一點我們已經放進來了你還講一點齁在你們報告中因為今天被退回去了嘛齁但是還是有翻了幾頁嘛針對休養通盤報告中第一點為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理對這個修法員嗎\n972457\t993808\t這個評估會不會又有22個縣市又有不一樣的標準?我們當然會建立統一的標準,這一個評估要評估什麼樣的東西,但是個案本來就是評估出來的結果不會一樣是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準?建立嘛,立主的立嘛\n997216\t1002600\t我剛剛講的這幾點好不好?是不是因為時間也過了一些了齁?\n1003916\t1003936\t好,謝謝\n","txt":"謝主席,有請部長。好,來有請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長辛苦啦。但我還是要講,從那個食安一直到食安的問題,我都儘量善意提醒,展現魄力,立即應變,錯誤修正,\n這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為。所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對,包含思安。\n委員長\n我個人倒不是這麼認為。\n在社會安全網裡面我們有很多的法律支援機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全的成長但是因為人為的因素因為人為的因素沒有能夠及時的啟動跟做相關的這些連結的時候所以導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面他卻受到最痛苦的折磨然後第一個時間我們去接觸了也沒有漏接怎麼會讓他在這個\n這顯然是一個非常嚴重的一個問題\n所以政府存在的目的然後建立了這麼多的機制過去的產動經驗怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情而且也不是政府主動去發掘不是任何任何一個單位任何一個機關去發掘的我覺得這事情是真的非常需要好好的檢討這第一點那第二點第一個時間接觸了\n有新北市政府、有台北市政府、有兒童機構怎麼會好像大家覺得把它安置好了就鬆懈掉了都沒問題啦這很奇怪的行為啦這很奇怪的行為為什麼不在109年齁\n來推動所謂幼兒專責醫師制度只要是脆弱家庭今天很多委員都有提到我看的細節應該是這樣齁脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象然後由縣市政府社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局但\n這名狩獵的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動對不對完全沒有啟動嘛齁這個幼兒專者的遺失制度甚至於早上的時候在內政委員會有某委員問警政署署長有接獲這個案件通報嗎也沒有也沒有齁所以從社政到衛政到警政到底什麼環節出問題部長應該應該有掌握了吧\n這是一件事情那第二件事情再來我們是依據行政院喔當時為什麼會制定這個107年2月6號合併強化社會安全網計畫內容出入家庭的定義很清楚這邊都寫進去我就不再贅述最後一句話非常重要而需多重支持與服務介入這個家庭人家講這兩個單位通通不知道渾然不知這個事情\n這是離譜其次哪一個環節出問題?你們的檢討報告裡面有針對這部分提出來嗎?\n這是第二件事情第三件事情我們再看因為這個白紙一字寫清楚根據媒體的報導可以知道小朋友的生母2021年因為房外置疑而持有毒品被收押看守所當時懷孕有5個月生育2022年隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影2023年令月被法院通緝這有三個時間點這三個時間點警政、衛政\n都有連結到嗎?若沒有連結到,出了什麼問題?這個有檢討嗎?\n這是第三件事情最後一個問題新北市或台北市的兒虎只要一個單位就算是他在去年6月發布通緝時有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的一個憾事應該是這樣對不對然後最後我想人原本就不是神一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後大家一起來看顧這個小朋友\n韓白講我從早上到現在我很仔細聽部長也好署長也好的回應我幾乎好像沒有聽到重點\n哪一個環節出了問題?其實是有多個環節都出了問題所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別都提出來\n那委員剛剛問到的問題其實就是第一個這個社福中心也就新北市社福中心在接受這一個家庭包括說一開始的時候他的母親就懷孕因為在看守所所以他就表示說想要把小孩子出養\n但是後來他生下來之後,這媽媽就不見了,就不見了。所以社福中心的社工的工作人員,就把整個的經歷放在說,怎麼樣完成這個收養。\n所以他就一直去找這個祖母去協調說要改變監護人因為生養必須要有監護人的同意嘛所以他整個的工作重點變成放在那個地方忘了說其實真正要處理的是小孩子\n小孩子的問題是當務之急是最重要的一件事情但是新北市社會福利中心去處理的卻是他的收養相關的這個同意權的這個問題所以他只把這個小孩子照顧就一下子就丟給兒福聯盟\n然後就等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了這一個環節是新北市這邊到現在為止新北市也還沒結案小孩子過世那麼久新北市的這個案子還沒結案所以這裡就是第一個問題出來就是說\n我們的地方政府在處理這類似的工作的時候沒有把重點放對重點是要保護小孩子重點不是說要去取得這個同意因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳照顧這個也沒有評估啊這是第一點\n第二點的話,兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候,他也沒有做得很好的一個評估也就是說他有兩度,第一階段的時候是因為本來是媽媽要去委託,後來就結案掉\n後來就是祖母得到這個監護權之後他仍然希望就是說這個要出養所以仍然去找到兒父聯盟那個社會局就找兒父聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置的問題好 第二個問題就因為在這個過程當中他的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保母幫他照顧了一年\n這一年當中的話沒有什麼樣的問題但是兒福聯盟接手之後的話卻把這個小孩子從這個原來這個保母的手中把他移開交給另外在他的另外一個縣市的保母來做照顧\n那這樣子的行為就非常的奇怪為什麼會有這樣的行為發生我就是要聽部長講這一段為什麼可以這樣為什麼沒有尊重原有的監護人的意念是希望讓舊的保母來繼續來保護、照顧這個小朋友為什麼\n本來就是這樣子那這在我們的報告裡面其實也稍微有提到因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構來講的話第二他自己沒有自己的\n對於這一個保姆去做這個監督管理\n所以當他有這樣的情形之下的話那原來的這個保姆的話他一個月要3萬塊他後來轉過去的這個保姆的話一個月是2萬5那這中間這些錢是由兒福聯盟出錢的是所以這個就是一個問題那我們未來這個就要切掉\n所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品然後誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理我不知道是不是這個原因啦我不知道是不是這個原因啦但是這是一個可能的原因可能的動機所以我們現在就把這個東西切掉我們現在要求地方來做這件事情地方本來就委託安置這樣子一個系統\n所以就地方來決定這小孩子要送到哪裡去就在他的系統裡面去因為這個系統地方政府會就是說定期或者有機制去做monitor去監督他的這個裡面的執行的狀況是什麼樣子所以這一個部分也是我們重要的一個未來要去檢討改善的一個機制\n所以今天發生小朋友生命不見了,就是一條,坦白講就是一個命案嘛。所以這個間接的不尊重當事人、政府人的意願,然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆的,這算不算間接殺人?\n這我是不敢這樣講這是其一啦齁其二為什麼可以這麼樣的不去尊重這個原有監護人而且已經有這個照顧保母一年多的這樣的信賴的這樣建立起來這樣的關係然後可以把他火絕掉是因為三萬到兩萬五之間的差異然後我們政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生\n我不知道說是不是這個差異引起這樣子的...我知道我當然是跟部長在討論嘛因為我聽你這麼講的過程裡面就是...就是如此...就是應該就這樣而已嘛簡單講就這樣嘛我不是要把它簡化啦齁因為...所以我要把這個線...這個原因可能的原因要把它切斷啦以後不要...所以你們在...對我知道部長這12月的時候召開專論會議就是6點的結論第一個結論就這麼講了嘛\n未來有出養必要,不能將評估沒可暫時安置及收養或仿視工作,全部交給民間團體來執行。\n至少要做到你看嘛,我們等到這事件發生,我們不才發覺精確發覺到不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養、後紡釋工作全部交給民間團體嘛我才問一句話,只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎?還有吧?\n跟委員報告其實這件事情並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得說這樣子不妥其實在兒權法目前進行的修法的過程當中我們已經提出來但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟有一些地方政府是反對這樣做\n他一直覺得維持現在的是比較好,那現在事情發生了所以我想這個在過去修法當中在反對說把這個事情由單純一個民間團體統包的這樣概念把它中間有一些必須要去決定的事情移到這個政府機關來是必要的\n這個是未來在修法的時候,我們也希望說委員能夠來支持這樣子的一個做法。跟這個有關的。我是說反對的縣市就跟這個有關\n是嘛,就當場在這邊講啊,就會很清楚嘛。另外一件事情,我想我剛剛一直強調說,只有這些,只有這些不冷而已嗎?\n部長看了一個資料這個是慈禧大學一個社工系的副教授講的在瑞典、丹麥、河南等國在申請收養部分是由政府把關由政府接受收養申請、完成審查及調查事宜並提供親子準備課程及核發準收養的收養許可相關的課程內容這個審查的標準都一致沒有機構落差然後目前\n台灣目前是由各收養的機構進行安排課程以至於申請收養者一定得到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程且同時輸出養媒合的機構評估標準不一整個收養的服務價格也存著落差怎樣落差你們都知道吧\n所以這個也是這一次修法我們希望去...已經有納進來的在六點裡面有嗎?沒有啦!兒少全法的修法\n在討論那個草案的時候已經有把這一點我們已經放進來了你還講一點齁在你們報告中因為今天被退回去了嘛齁但是還是有翻了幾頁嘛針對休養通盤報告中第一點為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理對這個修法員嗎\n這個評估會不會又有22個縣市又有不一樣的標準?我們當然會建立統一的標準,這一個評估要評估什麼樣的東西,但是個案本來就是評估出來的結果不會一樣是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準?建立嘛,立主的立嘛\n我剛剛講的這幾點好不好?是不是因為時間也過了一些了齁?\n好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.085 --> 00:26.761\n謝主席,有請部長。好,來有請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長辛苦啦。但我還是要講,從那個食安一直到食安的問題,我都儘量善意提醒,展現魄力,立即應變,錯誤修正,\n\n00:30.236 --> 00:36.843\n這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為。所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對,包含思安。\n\n00:51.411 --> 00:51.431\n委員長\n\n01:10.543 --> 01:11.343\n我個人倒不是這麼認為。\n\n01:32.148 --> 01:59.824\n在社會安全網裡面我們有很多的法律支援機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全的成長但是因為人為的因素因為人為的因素沒有能夠及時的啟動跟做相關的這些連結的時候所以導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面他卻受到最痛苦的折磨然後第一個時間我們去接觸了也沒有漏接怎麼會讓他在這個\n\n02:01.698 --> 02:01.938\n這顯然是一個非常嚴重的一個問題\n\n02:19.679 --> 02:42.492\n所以政府存在的目的然後建立了這麼多的機制過去的產動經驗怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情而且也不是政府主動去發掘不是任何任何一個單位任何一個機關去發掘的我覺得這事情是真的非常需要好好的檢討這第一點那第二點第一個時間接觸了\n\n02:44.557 --> 03:00.372\n有新北市政府、有台北市政府、有兒童機構怎麼會好像大家覺得把它安置好了就鬆懈掉了都沒問題啦這很奇怪的行為啦這很奇怪的行為為什麼不在109年齁\n\n03:02.703 --> 03:20.950\n來推動所謂幼兒專責醫師制度只要是脆弱家庭今天很多委員都有提到我看的細節應該是這樣齁脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象然後由縣市政府社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局但\n\n03:23.172 --> 03:45.783\n這名狩獵的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動對不對完全沒有啟動嘛齁這個幼兒專者的遺失制度甚至於早上的時候在內政委員會有某委員問警政署署長有接獲這個案件通報嗎也沒有也沒有齁所以從社政到衛政到警政到底什麼環節出問題部長應該應該有掌握了吧\n\n03:50.804 --> 04:11.869\n這是一件事情那第二件事情再來我們是依據行政院喔當時為什麼會制定這個107年2月6號合併強化社會安全網計畫內容出入家庭的定義很清楚這邊都寫進去我就不再贅述最後一句話非常重要而需多重支持與服務介入這個家庭人家講這兩個單位通通不知道渾然不知這個事情\n\n04:19.229 --> 04:21.655\n這是離譜其次哪一個環節出問題?你們的檢討報告裡面有針對這部分提出來嗎?\n\n04:28.609 --> 04:51.628\n這是第二件事情第三件事情我們再看因為這個白紙一字寫清楚根據媒體的報導可以知道小朋友的生母2021年因為房外置疑而持有毒品被收押看守所當時懷孕有5個月生育2022年隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影2023年令月被法院通緝這有三個時間點這三個時間點警政、衛政\n\n04:59.346 --> 05:02.415\n都有連結到嗎?若沒有連結到,出了什麼問題?這個有檢討嗎?\n\n05:05.685 --> 05:30.914\n這是第三件事情最後一個問題新北市或台北市的兒虎只要一個單位就算是他在去年6月發布通緝時有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的一個憾事應該是這樣對不對然後最後我想人原本就不是神一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後大家一起來看顧這個小朋友\n\n05:31.454 --> 05:33.576\n韓白講我從早上到現在我很仔細聽部長也好署長也好的回應我幾乎好像沒有聽到重點\n\n05:50.492 --> 05:54.216\n哪一個環節出了問題?其實是有多個環節都出了問題所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別都提出來\n\n06:06.169 --> 06:30.395\n那委員剛剛問到的問題其實就是第一個這個社福中心也就新北市社福中心在接受這一個家庭包括說一開始的時候他的母親就懷孕因為在看守所所以他就表示說想要把小孩子出養\n\n06:31.923 --> 06:48.906\n但是後來他生下來之後,這媽媽就不見了,就不見了。所以社福中心的社工的工作人員,就把整個的經歷放在說,怎麼樣完成這個收養。\n\n06:50.356 --> 07:07.147\n所以他就一直去找這個祖母去協調說要改變監護人因為生養必須要有監護人的同意嘛所以他整個的工作重點變成放在那個地方忘了說其實真正要處理的是小孩子\n\n07:08.107 --> 07:25.506\n小孩子的問題是當務之急是最重要的一件事情但是新北市社會福利中心去處理的卻是他的收養相關的這個同意權的這個問題所以他只把這個小孩子照顧就一下子就丟給兒福聯盟\n\n07:29.053 --> 07:47.622\n然後就等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了這一個環節是新北市這邊到現在為止新北市也還沒結案小孩子過世那麼久新北市的這個案子還沒結案所以這裡就是第一個問題出來就是說\n\n07:50.603 --> 08:11.392\n我們的地方政府在處理這類似的工作的時候沒有把重點放對重點是要保護小孩子重點不是說要去取得這個同意因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳照顧這個也沒有評估啊這是第一點\n\n08:12.792 --> 08:24.720\n第二點的話,兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候,他也沒有做得很好的一個評估也就是說他有兩度,第一階段的時候是因為本來是媽媽要去委託,後來就結案掉\n\n08:38.888 --> 09:02.944\n後來就是祖母得到這個監護權之後他仍然希望就是說這個要出養所以仍然去找到兒父聯盟那個社會局就找兒父聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置的問題好第二個問題就因為在這個過程當中他的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保母幫他照顧了一年\n\n09:04.273 --> 09:20.626\n這一年當中的話沒有什麼樣的問題但是兒福聯盟接手之後的話卻把這個小孩子從這個原來這個保母的手中把他移開交給另外在他的另外一個縣市的保母來做照顧\n\n09:21.767 --> 09:27.609\n那這樣子的行為就非常的奇怪為什麼會有這樣的行為發生我就是要聽部長講這一段為什麼可以這樣為什麼沒有尊重原有的監護人的意念是希望讓舊的保母來繼續來保護、照顧這個小朋友為什麼\n\n09:38.278 --> 09:52.453\n本來就是這樣子那這在我們的報告裡面其實也稍微有提到因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構來講的話第二他自己沒有自己的\n\n09:53.234 --> 09:55.055\n對於這一個保姆去做這個監督管理\n\n10:17.478 --> 10:39.796\n所以當他有這樣的情形之下的話那原來的這個保姆的話他一個月要3萬塊他後來轉過去的這個保姆的話一個月是2萬5那這中間這些錢是由兒福聯盟出錢的是所以這個就是一個問題那我們未來這個就要切掉\n\n10:41.736 --> 11:05.565\n所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品然後誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理我不知道是不是這個原因啦我不知道是不是這個原因啦但是這是一個可能的原因可能的動機所以我們現在就把這個東西切掉我們現在要求地方來做這件事情地方本來就委託安置這樣子一個系統\n\n11:06.385 --> 11:29.698\n所以就地方來決定這小孩子要送到哪裡去就在他的系統裡面去因為這個系統地方政府會就是說定期或者有機制去做monitor去監督他的這個裡面的執行的狀況是什麼樣子所以這一個部分也是我們重要的一個未來要去檢討改善的一個機制\n\n11:30.919 --> 11:46.173\n所以今天發生小朋友生命不見了,就是一條,坦白講就是一個命案嘛。所以這個間接的不尊重當事人、政府人的意願,然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆的,這算不算間接殺人?\n\n11:47.673 --> 12:07.139\n這我是不敢這樣講這是其一啦齁其二為什麼可以這麼樣的不去尊重這個原有監護人而且已經有這個照顧保母一年多的這樣的信賴的這樣建立起來這樣的關係然後可以把他火絕掉是因為三萬到兩萬五之間的差異然後我們政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生\n\n12:07.839 --> 12:28.004\n我不知道說是不是這個差異引起這樣子的...我知道我當然是跟部長在討論嘛因為我聽你這麼講的過程裡面就是...就是如此...就是應該就這樣而已嘛簡單講就這樣嘛我不是要把它簡化啦齁因為...所以我要把這個線...這個原因可能的原因要把它切斷啦以後不要...所以你們在...對我知道部長這12月的時候召開專論會議就是6點的結論第一個結論就這麼講了嘛\n\n12:31.405 --> 12:37.733\n未來有出養必要,不能將評估沒可暫時安置及收養或仿視工作,全部交給民間團體來執行。\n\n12:47.841 --> 13:03.987\n至少要做到你看嘛,我們等到這事件發生,我們不才發覺精確發覺到不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養、後紡釋工作全部交給民間團體嘛我才問一句話,只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎?還有吧?\n\n13:05.968 --> 13:26.945\n跟委員報告其實這件事情並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得說這樣子不妥其實在兒權法目前進行的修法的過程當中我們已經提出來但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟有一些地方政府是反對這樣做\n\n13:28.618 --> 13:51.314\n他一直覺得維持現在的是比較好,那現在事情發生了所以我想這個在過去修法當中在反對說把這個事情由單純一個民間團體統包的這樣概念把它中間有一些必須要去決定的事情移到這個政府機關來是必要的\n\n13:52.554 --> 14:01.037\n這個是未來在修法的時候,我們也希望說委員能夠來支持這樣子的一個做法。跟這個有關的。我是說反對的縣市就跟這個有關\n\n14:18.803 --> 14:27.717\n是嘛,就當場在這邊講啊,就會很清楚嘛。另外一件事情,我想我剛剛一直強調說,只有這些,只有這些不冷而已嗎?\n\n14:29.793 --> 14:52.596\n部長看了一個資料這個是慈禧大學一個社工系的副教授講的在瑞典、丹麥、河南等國在申請收養部分是由政府把關由政府接受收養申請、完成審查及調查事宜並提供親子準備課程及核發準收養的收養許可相關的課程內容這個審查的標準都一致沒有機構落差然後目前\n\n14:53.797 --> 15:15.536\n台灣目前是由各收養的機構進行安排課程以至於申請收養者一定得到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程且同時輸出養媒合的機構評估標準不一整個收養的服務價格也存著落差怎樣落差你們都知道吧\n\n15:16.636 --> 15:22.080\n所以這個也是這一次修法我們希望去...已經有納進來的在六點裡面有嗎?沒有啦!兒少全法的修法\n\n15:40.188 --> 16:05.054\n在討論那個草案的時候已經有把這一點我們已經放進來了你還講一點齁在你們報告中因為今天被退回去了嘛齁但是還是有翻了幾頁嘛針對休養通盤報告中第一點為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理對這個修法員嗎\n\n16:12.457 --> 16:33.808\n這個評估會不會又有22個縣市又有不一樣的標準?我們當然會建立統一的標準,這一個評估要評估什麼樣的東西,但是個案本來就是評估出來的結果不會一樣是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準?建立嘛,立主的立嘛\n\n16:37.216 --> 16:42.600\n我剛剛講的這幾點好不好?是不是因為時間也過了一些了齁?\n\n16:43.916 --> 16:43.936\n好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.085,"end":26.761,"text":"謝主席,有請部長。好,來有請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長辛苦啦。但我還是要講,從那個食安一直到食安的問題,我都儘量善意提醒,展現魄力,立即應變,錯誤修正,"},{"start":30.236,"end":36.843,"text":"這不是中央跟地方政府該有的作為。所以這件事情我會很慎重去做比對,包含思安。"},{"start":51.411,"end":51.431,"text":"委員長"},{"start":70.543,"end":71.343,"text":"我個人倒不是這麼認為。"},{"start":92.148,"end":119.824,"text":"在社會安全網裡面我們有很多的法律支援機構、社工可以來協助這個小朋友安全的成長但是因為人為的因素因為人為的因素沒有能夠及時的啟動跟做相關的這些連結的時候所以導致他是在一個安全的範圍裡面他卻受到最痛苦的折磨然後第一個時間我們去接觸了也沒有漏接怎麼會讓他在這個"},{"start":121.698,"end":121.938,"text":"這顯然是一個非常嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":139.679,"end":162.492,"text":"所以政府存在的目的然後建立了這麼多的機制過去的產動經驗怎麼到現在還會發生這樣的事情而且也不是政府主動去發掘不是任何任何一個單位任何一個機關去發掘的我覺得這事情是真的非常需要好好的檢討這第一點那第二點第一個時間接觸了"},{"start":164.557,"end":180.372,"text":"有新北市政府、有台北市政府、有兒童機構怎麼會好像大家覺得把它安置好了就鬆懈掉了都沒問題啦這很奇怪的行為啦這很奇怪的行為為什麼不在109年齁"},{"start":182.703,"end":200.95,"text":"來推動所謂幼兒專責醫師制度只要是脆弱家庭今天很多委員都有提到我看的細節應該是這樣齁脆弱家庭有3歲以下的幼兒就應該納入指定收案對象然後由縣市政府社會局將脆弱家庭兒童名單提供給衛生局但"},{"start":203.172,"end":225.783,"text":"這名狩獵的小朋友一直到離世之前都沒有啟動對不對完全沒有啟動嘛齁這個幼兒專者的遺失制度甚至於早上的時候在內政委員會有某委員問警政署署長有接獲這個案件通報嗎也沒有也沒有齁所以從社政到衛政到警政到底什麼環節出問題部長應該應該有掌握了吧"},{"start":230.804,"end":251.869,"text":"這是一件事情那第二件事情再來我們是依據行政院喔當時為什麼會制定這個107年2月6號合併強化社會安全網計畫內容出入家庭的定義很清楚這邊都寫進去我就不再贅述最後一句話非常重要而需多重支持與服務介入這個家庭人家講這兩個單位通通不知道渾然不知這個事情"},{"start":259.229,"end":261.655,"text":"這是離譜其次哪一個環節出問題?你們的檢討報告裡面有針對這部分提出來嗎?"},{"start":268.609,"end":291.628,"text":"這是第二件事情第三件事情我們再看因為這個白紙一字寫清楚根據媒體的報導可以知道小朋友的生母2021年因為房外置疑而持有毒品被收押看守所當時懷孕有5個月生育2022年隔年的2月在新北樹林區產下小朋友後失去蹤影2023年令月被法院通緝這有三個時間點這三個時間點警政、衛政"},{"start":299.346,"end":302.415,"text":"都有連結到嗎?若沒有連結到,出了什麼問題?這個有檢討嗎?"},{"start":305.685,"end":330.914,"text":"這是第三件事情最後一個問題新北市或台北市的兒虎只要一個單位就算是他在去年6月發布通緝時有機會派一個專責醫師就是多一個機會去阻絕這樣的一個憾事應該是這樣對不對然後最後我想人原本就不是神一定是要眾人的力量一起來瞻前顧後大家一起來看顧這個小朋友"},{"start":331.454,"end":333.576,"text":"韓白講我從早上到現在我很仔細聽部長也好署長也好的回應我幾乎好像沒有聽到重點"},{"start":350.492,"end":354.216,"text":"哪一個環節出了問題?其實是有多個環節都出了問題所以在我們的檢討報告裡面就有分別都提出來"},{"start":366.169,"end":390.395,"text":"那委員剛剛問到的問題其實就是第一個這個社福中心也就新北市社福中心在接受這一個家庭包括說一開始的時候他的母親就懷孕因為在看守所所以他就表示說想要把小孩子出養"},{"start":391.923,"end":408.906,"text":"但是後來他生下來之後,這媽媽就不見了,就不見了。所以社福中心的社工的工作人員,就把整個的經歷放在說,怎麼樣完成這個收養。"},{"start":410.356,"end":427.147,"text":"所以他就一直去找這個祖母去協調說要改變監護人因為生養必須要有監護人的同意嘛所以他整個的工作重點變成放在那個地方忘了說其實真正要處理的是小孩子"},{"start":428.107,"end":445.506,"text":"小孩子的問題是當務之急是最重要的一件事情但是新北市社會福利中心去處理的卻是他的收養相關的這個同意權的這個問題所以他只把這個小孩子照顧就一下子就丟給兒福聯盟"},{"start":449.053,"end":467.622,"text":"然後就等於小孩子的照顧就沒他的事了這一個環節是新北市這邊到現在為止新北市也還沒結案小孩子過世那麼久新北市的這個案子還沒結案所以這裡就是第一個問題出來就是說"},{"start":470.603,"end":491.392,"text":"我們的地方政府在處理這類似的工作的時候沒有把重點放對重點是要保護小孩子重點不是說要去取得這個同意因為事實上是不是一定要出養才能夠讓孩子得到最佳照顧這個也沒有評估啊這是第一點"},{"start":492.792,"end":504.72,"text":"第二點的話,兒福聯盟接到這個案子的時候,他也沒有做得很好的一個評估也就是說他有兩度,第一階段的時候是因為本來是媽媽要去委託,後來就結案掉"},{"start":518.888,"end":542.944,"text":"後來就是祖母得到這個監護權之後他仍然希望就是說這個要出養所以仍然去找到兒父聯盟那個社會局就找兒父聯盟來處理這個小孩子的安置的問題好 第二個問題就因為在這個過程當中他的祖母已經聘請了另外一位保母幫他照顧了一年"},{"start":544.273,"end":560.626,"text":"這一年當中的話沒有什麼樣的問題但是兒福聯盟接手之後的話卻把這個小孩子從這個原來這個保母的手中把他移開交給另外在他的另外一個縣市的保母來做照顧"},{"start":561.767,"end":567.609,"text":"那這樣子的行為就非常的奇怪為什麼會有這樣的行為發生我就是要聽部長講這一段為什麼可以這樣為什麼沒有尊重原有的監護人的意念是希望讓舊的保母來繼續來保護、照顧這個小朋友為什麼"},{"start":578.278,"end":592.453,"text":"本來就是這樣子那這在我們的報告裡面其實也稍微有提到因為兒福聯盟這樣子的一個機構來講的話第二他自己沒有自己的"},{"start":593.234,"end":595.055,"text":"對於這一個保姆去做這個監督管理"},{"start":617.478,"end":639.796,"text":"所以當他有這樣的情形之下的話那原來的這個保姆的話他一個月要3萬塊他後來轉過去的這個保姆的話一個月是2萬5那這中間這些錢是由兒福聯盟出錢的是所以這個就是一個問題那我們未來這個就要切掉"},{"start":641.736,"end":665.565,"text":"所以小朋友的生命就是一個物品然後誰來處理會比較便宜就給比較便宜的去處理我不知道是不是這個原因啦我不知道是不是這個原因啦但是這是一個可能的原因可能的動機所以我們現在就把這個東西切掉我們現在要求地方來做這件事情地方本來就委託安置這樣子一個系統"},{"start":666.385,"end":689.698,"text":"所以就地方來決定這小孩子要送到哪裡去就在他的系統裡面去因為這個系統地方政府會就是說定期或者有機制去做monitor去監督他的這個裡面的執行的狀況是什麼樣子所以這一個部分也是我們重要的一個未來要去檢討改善的一個機制"},{"start":690.919,"end":706.173,"text":"所以今天發生小朋友生命不見了,就是一條,坦白講就是一個命案嘛。所以這個間接的不尊重當事人、政府人的意願,然後硬轉接給另外這個保姆的,這算不算間接殺人?"},{"start":707.673,"end":727.139,"text":"這我是不敢這樣講這是其一啦齁其二為什麼可以這麼樣的不去尊重這個原有監護人而且已經有這個照顧保母一年多的這樣的信賴的這樣建立起來這樣的關係然後可以把他火絕掉是因為三萬到兩萬五之間的差異然後我們政府怎麼可以讓這個事情發生"},{"start":727.839,"end":748.004,"text":"我不知道說是不是這個差異引起這樣子的...我知道我當然是跟部長在討論嘛因為我聽你這麼講的過程裡面就是...就是如此...就是應該就這樣而已嘛簡單講就這樣嘛我不是要把它簡化啦齁因為...所以我要把這個線...這個原因可能的原因要把它切斷啦以後不要...所以你們在...對我知道部長這12月的時候召開專論會議就是6點的結論第一個結論就這麼講了嘛"},{"start":751.405,"end":757.733,"text":"未來有出養必要,不能將評估沒可暫時安置及收養或仿視工作,全部交給民間團體來執行。"},{"start":767.841,"end":783.987,"text":"至少要做到你看嘛,我們等到這事件發生,我們不才發覺精確發覺到不能將評估、媒合、暫時安置及收養、後紡釋工作全部交給民間團體嘛我才問一句話,只有這些不能交給民間團體而已嗎?還有吧?"},{"start":785.968,"end":806.945,"text":"跟委員報告其實這件事情並不是這件事情發生之後我們才覺得說這樣子不妥其實在兒權法目前進行的修法的過程當中我們已經提出來但是有一些民間的團體或專家跟有一些地方政府是反對這樣做"},{"start":808.618,"end":831.314,"text":"他一直覺得維持現在的是比較好,那現在事情發生了所以我想這個在過去修法當中在反對說把這個事情由單純一個民間團體統包的這樣概念把它中間有一些必須要去決定的事情移到這個政府機關來是必要的"},{"start":832.554,"end":841.037,"text":"這個是未來在修法的時候,我們也希望說委員能夠來支持這樣子的一個做法。跟這個有關的。我是說反對的縣市就跟這個有關"},{"start":858.803,"end":867.717,"text":"是嘛,就當場在這邊講啊,就會很清楚嘛。另外一件事情,我想我剛剛一直強調說,只有這些,只有這些不冷而已嗎?"},{"start":869.793,"end":892.596,"text":"部長看了一個資料這個是慈禧大學一個社工系的副教授講的在瑞典、丹麥、河南等國在申請收養部分是由政府把關由政府接受收養申請、完成審查及調查事宜並提供親子準備課程及核發準收養的收養許可相關的課程內容這個審查的標準都一致沒有機構落差然後目前"},{"start":893.797,"end":915.536,"text":"台灣目前是由各收養的機構進行安排課程以至於申請收養者一定得到出收養的孩子的縣市接受當地媒合機構的課程且同時輸出養媒合的機構評估標準不一整個收養的服務價格也存著落差怎樣落差你們都知道吧"},{"start":916.636,"end":922.08,"text":"所以這個也是這一次修法我們希望去...已經有納進來的在六點裡面有嗎?沒有啦!兒少全法的修法"},{"start":940.188,"end":965.054,"text":"在討論那個草案的時候已經有把這一點我們已經放進來了你還講一點齁在你們報告中因為今天被退回去了嘛齁但是還是有翻了幾頁嘛針對休養通盤報告中第一點為了釐清地方政府與收出養媒合機構之分工及迴避利益的衝突未來出養必要性的評估由地方政府辦理對這個修法員嗎"},{"start":972.457,"end":993.808,"text":"這個評估會不會又有22個縣市又有不一樣的標準?我們當然會建立統一的標準,這一個評估要評估什麼樣的東西,但是個案本來就是評估出來的結果不會一樣是建立統一標準還是建議統一標準?建立嘛,立主的立嘛"},{"start":997.216,"end":1002.6,"text":"我剛剛講的這幾點好不好?是不是因為時間也過了一些了齁?"},{"start":1003.916,"end":1003.936,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}}}}