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497.13, \"end\": 524.303, \"text\": \"我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就是說失聯了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 497.13, \"end\": 497.27, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 497.27, \"end\": 497.45, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 497.45, \"end\": 497.99, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 497.99, \"end\": 498.231, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 498.231, \"end\": 498.451, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 498.451, \"end\": 498.591, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 498.591, \"end\": 498.751, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 498.751, \"end\": 498.931, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 498.931, \"end\": 499.811, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"縱\"}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 499.811, \"end\": 500.251, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 500.251, \"end\": 500.432, 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{\"word\": \"父\", \"start\": 515.198, \"end\": 515.399, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 515.399, \"end\": 515.719, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 515.719, \"end\": 517.379, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 517.379, \"end\": 517.52, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 517.52, \"end\": 518.76, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 518.76, \"end\": 518.9, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 518.9, \"end\": 519.06, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"隔\", \"start\": 519.06, \"end\": 519.22, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 519.22, \"end\": 519.4, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 519.4, \"end\": 519.5, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 519.5, \"end\": 520.521, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 520.521, \"end\": 520.681, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 520.681, \"end\": 520.781, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 520.781, \"end\": 520.961, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 520.961, \"end\": 521.701, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 521.701, \"end\": 521.882, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 521.882, \"end\": 522.662, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 522.662, \"end\": 523.382, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 523.382, \"end\": 523.582, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 523.582, \"end\": 523.882, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 523.882, \"end\": 524.283, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 524.283, \"end\": 524.303, \"score\": 0.323}]}, {\"start\": 525.339, \"end\": 528.2, \"text\": \"家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 525.339, \"end\": 526.099, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 526.099, \"end\": 526.239, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 526.239, \"end\": 526.279, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"童\", \"start\": 526.279, \"end\": 526.299, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 526.299, \"end\": 526.64, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 526.64, \"end\": 526.66, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 526.66, \"end\": 526.68, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 526.68, \"end\": 526.7, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"聯\"}, {\"word\": \"盟\", \"start\": 526.7, \"end\": 526.72, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"媒\", \"start\": 526.72, \"end\": 526.76, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 526.76, \"end\": 526.84, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 526.84, \"end\": 526.9, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 526.9, \"end\": 527.62, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 527.62, \"end\": 528.18, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 528.18, \"end\": 528.2, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 539.755, \"end\": 566.34, \"text\": \"那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說的很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這都讀到就算了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 539.755, \"end\": 540.955, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 540.955, \"end\": 541.135, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 541.135, \"end\": 541.335, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 541.335, \"end\": 541.555, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 541.555, \"end\": 541.915, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 541.915, \"end\": 542.075, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"描\", \"start\": 542.075, \"end\": 542.395, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 542.395, \"end\": 543.396, 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\"部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 586.67, \"end\": 586.95, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 586.95, \"end\": 587.21, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 587.21, \"end\": 588.251, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 588.251, \"end\": 588.351, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 588.351, \"end\": 588.711, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 588.711, \"end\": 591.252, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"滿\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 591.252, \"end\": 591.392, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 591.392, \"end\": 591.933, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 591.933, \"end\": 592.853, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 592.853, \"end\": 593.073, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 593.073, \"end\": 593.814, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 593.814, \"end\": 593.974, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 593.974, \"end\": 593.994, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 593.994, \"end\": 596.015, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 596.015, \"end\": 596.495, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 596.495, \"end\": 596.855, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 596.855, \"end\": 596.995, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 596.995, \"end\": 597.135, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 597.135, \"end\": 598.176, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 598.176, \"end\": 598.356, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 598.356, \"end\": 598.516, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"後\", 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,053 --> 00:00:11,196\n謝謝主席主席我請一下薛部長好我們請薛部長\n\n2\n00:00:14,915 --> 00:00:32,878\n委員好不知道我剛剛聽了一句話所以我就調整一下我的執行順序就是說我們大概通常都是相信人是善良的整個制度的設計也都是用這個\n\n3\n00:00:34,434 --> 00:01:00,087\n用這個來做利潤基礎善良可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌才會發生不幸那我現在就直接這樣子講就是說其實保姆跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的\n\n4\n00:01:01,528 --> 00:01:22,447\n那這個信賴其實也就建立在彼此認知為善良對不對那也因為這樣子社工的工作量也大我今天也不想再談社工的工作量跟待遇的問題因為這個我們在本委員會討論太多次了\n\n5\n00:01:29,850 --> 00:01:54,112\n這一次事件發生以後我第一個想到的就是現在會不會有很多社工其實是把訪視通常用通訊的方式來做替代應該是不會啦該去實地訪視的還是他們都有這樣做因為他完成之後也必須要做報告\n\n6\n00:01:55,376 --> 00:02:11,746\n對嘛齁就是說不至於因為各項通信軟體的進步所以就未來的話如果在特殊狀況之下的話可以用這種視訊的話那我們會進一步去做規定對我就是講說像這一次最後一次訪視保姆是說家裡有人確診\n\n7\n00:02:21,893 --> 00:02:44,668\n事訊可能可以作為取代可以來作為輔助的工具可是他只能在在在特殊狀況因為其實縱使是假如說假如說執行業務的人不要說保姆或誰執行業務的人有心要為惡其實\n\n8\n00:02:49,226 --> 00:03:03,695\n沒有到現場去做訪視都很難察覺問題因為視訊本身其要作假也容易可是假如說萬一不得已的情況這個倒是可以作為替代\n\n9\n00:03:08,356 --> 00:03:30,953\n部長我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣覺得台灣社會發生這樣子的一件事情覺得很痛心對小孩子也很不捨以外我有發現一個問題就是說以台灣資訊這麼多元這麼快速這麼發達的情況\n\n10\n00:03:37,199 --> 00:03:51,090\n為什麼一個重大的孽童案件從去年12月底發生一直到3月份社會大眾才知道這個問題我覺得還蠻誇張的\n\n11\n00:03:55,914 --> 00:04:17,209\n對這中間到底為什麼原因讓這一個事件對大眾來曝光為什麼會拖到三個月這當然我們也是很關心不過這應該是牽涉到這一個司法調查這案件司法調查是這樣子嘛司法調查是\n\n12\n00:04:18,884 --> 00:04:37,882\n偵查的內容不公開可是案件通常會浮出檯面可是這個案子並沒有這個案子就是送到醫院的時候醫生從外觀來判斷從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除這個就是一看就是一個刑案\n\n13\n00:04:39,232 --> 00:05:00,461\n然後警政機關也知道那看樣子是臺北的社會處一定知道、俄盟一定知道衛福部也知道可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情我覺得還蠻訝異的\n\n14\n00:05:03,455 --> 00:05:28,362\n該委員報告我個人的判斷這中間的話是有一些誤解的地方也就是說對於司法案件進入司法程序的案件的話那就會所謂的偵查不公開但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍對比如說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題這個都是\n\n15\n00:05:31,323 --> 00:05:50,936\n我們要自己去進行行政調查而不是說因為已經進入到司法所以這些就通通暫停不做司法調查跟行政調查本來就是不一樣但是可能不管是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的誤解\n\n16\n00:05:53,127 --> 00:06:17,059\n以為說因為已經進入到司法調查所以大概這一些其他的工作可以暫緩等到司法調查結果出來那我們再繼續去做行政調查其實這個觀念是需要再做調整就是說台灣目前的新聞量不足然後新聞台過多的情況下\n\n17\n00:06:18,363 --> 00:06:43,103\n昨天晚上我看到一則新聞就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡平常收150有一個司機收200就上新聞了結果我們這一件竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人我現在講的不是說公開的講就是私底下把訊息\n\n18\n00:06:44,394 --> 00:06:50,759\n我應該是這樣講,對於這類的案件,行政機關在處理不管是地方還是總部在處理的過程當中,都不太會主動去告知媒體。第一個是這樣子,原則上不會主動去告知媒體。\n\n19\n00:07:12,277 --> 00:07:39,153\n但是以過去的經驗雖然沒有主動告訴媒體媒體都還會知道為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體就通通都不知道這個事的確還是一個值得去探討的一個現象那我從這裡又想又引發另外一個問題就是說這是一個極度弱勢的家庭造成的悲劇\n\n20\n00:07:40,481 --> 00:07:52,058\n假如說他家裡面還有其他的人我想這件事情不至於會從事發到隔了將近三個月的時間\n\n21\n00:07:54,271 --> 00:08:16,003\n所以弱勢家庭的保障真的是我們政府的責任我們不要說其他的機制上的東西光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢\n\n22\n00:08:17,130 --> 00:08:44,303\n我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就是說失聯了\n\n23\n00:08:45,339 --> 00:08:48,200\n家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。\n\n24\n00:08:59,755 --> 00:09:26,340\n那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說的很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這都讀到就算了\n\n25\n00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:41,214\n但是因為這個案子後來進入到解剖法醫的驗屍方認為是他殺發現到這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道這我們就比較不清楚\n\n26\n00:09:46,670 --> 00:10:10,502\n部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆\n\n27\n00:10:11,943 --> 00:10:34,066\n那原本的保姆對他的照料是沒有問題的那因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作沒介工作所以換成兒盟的保姆這個有沒有必須?\n\n28\n00:10:36,403 --> 00:10:57,688\n對,這其實是有違反了一些原則啦因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係而且中間沒有發現說有什麼樣的問題的話基本上是不應該去換這個保姆那至於說為什麼會換那這個我們就要進一步再去做理解到底他的動機是什麼樣子還是他的機制,兒童的機制到底是怎麼樣\n\n29\n00:11:02,209 --> 00:11:24,528\n因為就兒童權利公約來看就是所有兒童的事務不管是公私立的社福機構、法院、行政部門都必須要以兒童最佳的利益為優先我覺得假如說這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件就是\n\n30\n00:11:25,888 --> 00:11:47,975\n保姆沒有換?保姆不換?事情不會發生?可能就不會發生所以這個是不是也請部裡面這邊跟兒盟或者是所有的相關單位以後所有的事情都必須要報告委員我們這個案子其實還沒有結案\n\n31\n00:11:49,316 --> 00:12:11,671\n我們還是繼續有一些疑點或等等的這一些的話,除了在法規上面的要去做修正之外,其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。除了就責,因為行事責任的部分規施法的嘛,除了責任的釐清以外,我覺得制度怎麼讓它朝向?\n\n32\n00:12:14,033 --> 00:12:14,233\n謝謝部長、謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6053\t11196\t謝謝主席 主席我請一下薛部長好 我們請薛部長\n14915\t32878\t委員好不知道我剛剛聽了一句話所以我就調整一下我的執行順序就是說我們大概通常都是相信人是善良的整個制度的設計也都是用這個\n34434\t60087\t用這個來做利潤基礎善良可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌才會發生不幸那我現在就直接這樣子講就是說其實保姆跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的\n61528\t82447\t那這個信賴其實也就建立在彼此認知為善良 對不對那也因為這樣子社工的工作量也大我今天也不想再談社工的工作量跟待遇的問題因為這個我們在本委員會討論太多次了\n89850\t114112\t這一次事件發生以後我第一個想到的就是現在會不會有很多社工其實是把訪視通常用通訊的方式來做替代應該是不會啦該去實地訪視的還是他們都有這樣做因為他完成之後也必須要做報告\n115376\t131746\t對嘛齁就是說不至於因為各項通信軟體的進步所以就未來的話如果在特殊狀況之下的話可以用這種視訊的話那我們會進一步去做規定對我就是講說像這一次最後一次訪視保姆是說家裡有人確診\n141893\t164668\t事訊可能可以作為取代可以來作為輔助的工具可是他只能在在在特殊狀況因為其實縱使是假如說假如說執行業務的人不要說保姆或誰執行業務的人有心要為惡其實\n169226\t183695\t沒有到現場去做訪視都很難察覺問題因為視訊本身其要作假也容易可是假如說萬一不得已的情況這個倒是可以作為替代\n188356\t210953\t部長我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣覺得台灣社會發生這樣子的一件事情覺得很痛心對小孩子也很不捨以外我有發現一個問題就是說以台灣資訊這麼多元這麼快速這麼發達的情況\n217199\t231090\t為什麼一個重大的孽童案件從去年12月底發生一直到3月份社會大眾才知道這個問題我覺得還蠻誇張的\n235914\t257209\t對這中間到底為什麼原因讓這一個事件對大眾來曝光為什麼會拖到三個月這當然我們也是很關心不過這應該是牽涉到這一個司法調查這案件司法調查是這樣子嘛司法調查是\n258884\t277882\t偵查的內容不公開可是案件通常會浮出檯面可是這個案子並沒有這個案子就是送到醫院的時候醫生從外觀來判斷從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除這個就是一看就是一個刑案\n279232\t300461\t然後警政機關也知道那看樣子是臺北的社會處一定知道、俄盟一定知道衛福部也知道可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情我覺得還蠻訝異的\n303455\t328362\t該委員報告我個人的判斷這中間的話是有一些誤解的地方也就是說對於司法案件進入司法程序的案件的話那就會所謂的偵查不公開但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍對比如說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題這個都是\n331323\t350936\t我們要自己去進行行政調查而不是說因為已經進入到司法所以這些就通通暫停不做司法調查跟行政調查本來就是不一樣但是可能不管是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的誤解\n353127\t377059\t以為說因為已經進入到司法調查所以大概這一些其他的工作可以暫緩等到司法調查結果出來那我們再繼續去做行政調查其實這個觀念是需要再做調整就是說台灣目前的新聞量不足然後新聞台過多的情況下\n378363\t403103\t昨天晚上我看到一則新聞就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡平常收150有一個司機收200就上新聞了結果我們這一件竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人我現在講的不是說公開的講就是私底下把訊息\n404394\t410759\t我應該是這樣講,對於這類的案件,行政機關在處理不管是地方還是總部在處理的過程當中,都不太會主動去告知媒體。第一個是這樣子,原則上不會主動去告知媒體。\n432277\t459153\t但是以過去的經驗雖然沒有主動告訴媒體媒體都還會知道為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體就通通都不知道這個事的確還是一個值得去探討的一個現象那我從這裡又想又引發另外一個問題就是說這是一個極度弱勢的家庭造成的悲劇\n460481\t472058\t假如說他家裡面還有其他的人我想這件事情不至於會從事發到隔了將近三個月的時間\n474271\t496003\t所以弱勢家庭的保障真的是我們政府的責任我們不要說其他的機制上的東西光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢\n497130\t524303\t我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就是說失聯了\n525339\t528200\t家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。\n539755\t566340\t那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說的很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這都讀到就算了\n568360\t581214\t但是因為這個案子後來進入到解剖法醫的驗屍方認為是他殺發現到這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道這我們就比較不清楚\n586670\t610502\t部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆\n611943\t634066\t那原本的保姆對他的照料是沒有問題的那因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作沒介工作所以換成兒盟的保姆這個有沒有必須?\n636403\t657688\t對,這其實是有違反了一些原則啦因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係而且中間沒有發現說有什麼樣的問題的話基本上是不應該去換這個保姆那至於說為什麼會換那這個我們就要進一步再去做理解到底他的動機是什麼樣子還是他的機制,兒童的機制到底是怎麼樣\n662209\t684528\t因為就兒童權利公約來看就是所有兒童的事務不管是公私立的社福機構、法院、行政部門都必須要以兒童最佳的利益為優先我覺得假如說這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件就是\n685888\t707975\t保姆沒有換?保姆不換?事情不會發生?可能就不會發生所以這個是不是也請部裡面這邊跟兒盟或者是所有的相關單位以後所有的事情都必須要報告委員我們這個案子其實還沒有結案\n709316\t731671\t我們還是繼續有一些疑點或等等的這一些的話,除了在法規上面的要去做修正之外,其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。除了就責,因為行事責任的部分規施法的嘛,除了責任的釐清以外,我覺得制度怎麼讓它朝向?\n734033\t734233\t謝謝部長、謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席 主席我請一下薛部長好 我們請薛部長\n委員好不知道我剛剛聽了一句話所以我就調整一下我的執行順序就是說我們大概通常都是相信人是善良的整個制度的設計也都是用這個\n用這個來做利潤基礎善良可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌才會發生不幸那我現在就直接這樣子講就是說其實保姆跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的\n那這個信賴其實也就建立在彼此認知為善良 對不對那也因為這樣子社工的工作量也大我今天也不想再談社工的工作量跟待遇的問題因為這個我們在本委員會討論太多次了\n這一次事件發生以後我第一個想到的就是現在會不會有很多社工其實是把訪視通常用通訊的方式來做替代應該是不會啦該去實地訪視的還是他們都有這樣做因為他完成之後也必須要做報告\n對嘛齁就是說不至於因為各項通信軟體的進步所以就未來的話如果在特殊狀況之下的話可以用這種視訊的話那我們會進一步去做規定對我就是講說像這一次最後一次訪視保姆是說家裡有人確診\n事訊可能可以作為取代可以來作為輔助的工具可是他只能在在在特殊狀況因為其實縱使是假如說假如說執行業務的人不要說保姆或誰執行業務的人有心要為惡其實\n沒有到現場去做訪視都很難察覺問題因為視訊本身其要作假也容易可是假如說萬一不得已的情況這個倒是可以作為替代\n部長我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣覺得台灣社會發生這樣子的一件事情覺得很痛心對小孩子也很不捨以外我有發現一個問題就是說以台灣資訊這麼多元這麼快速這麼發達的情況\n為什麼一個重大的孽童案件從去年12月底發生一直到3月份社會大眾才知道這個問題我覺得還蠻誇張的\n對這中間到底為什麼原因讓這一個事件對大眾來曝光為什麼會拖到三個月這當然我們也是很關心不過這應該是牽涉到這一個司法調查這案件司法調查是這樣子嘛司法調查是\n偵查的內容不公開可是案件通常會浮出檯面可是這個案子並沒有這個案子就是送到醫院的時候醫生從外觀來判斷從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除這個就是一看就是一個刑案\n然後警政機關也知道那看樣子是臺北的社會處一定知道、俄盟一定知道衛福部也知道可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情我覺得還蠻訝異的\n該委員報告我個人的判斷這中間的話是有一些誤解的地方也就是說對於司法案件進入司法程序的案件的話那就會所謂的偵查不公開但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍對比如說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題這個都是\n我們要自己去進行行政調查而不是說因為已經進入到司法所以這些就通通暫停不做司法調查跟行政調查本來就是不一樣但是可能不管是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的誤解\n以為說因為已經進入到司法調查所以大概這一些其他的工作可以暫緩等到司法調查結果出來那我們再繼續去做行政調查其實這個觀念是需要再做調整就是說台灣目前的新聞量不足然後新聞台過多的情況下\n昨天晚上我看到一則新聞就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡平常收150有一個司機收200就上新聞了結果我們這一件竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人我現在講的不是說公開的講就是私底下把訊息\n我應該是這樣講,對於這類的案件,行政機關在處理不管是地方還是總部在處理的過程當中,都不太會主動去告知媒體。第一個是這樣子,原則上不會主動去告知媒體。\n但是以過去的經驗雖然沒有主動告訴媒體媒體都還會知道為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體就通通都不知道這個事的確還是一個值得去探討的一個現象那我從這裡又想又引發另外一個問題就是說這是一個極度弱勢的家庭造成的悲劇\n假如說他家裡面還有其他的人我想這件事情不至於會從事發到隔了將近三個月的時間\n所以弱勢家庭的保障真的是我們政府的責任我們不要說其他的機制上的東西光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢\n我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就是說失聯了\n家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。\n那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說的很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這都讀到就算了\n但是因為這個案子後來進入到解剖法醫的驗屍方認為是他殺發現到這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道這我們就比較不清楚\n部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆\n那原本的保姆對他的照料是沒有問題的那因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作沒介工作所以換成兒盟的保姆這個有沒有必須?\n對,這其實是有違反了一些原則啦因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係而且中間沒有發現說有什麼樣的問題的話基本上是不應該去換這個保姆那至於說為什麼會換那這個我們就要進一步再去做理解到底他的動機是什麼樣子還是他的機制,兒童的機制到底是怎麼樣\n因為就兒童權利公約來看就是所有兒童的事務不管是公私立的社福機構、法院、行政部門都必須要以兒童最佳的利益為優先我覺得假如說這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件就是\n保姆沒有換?保姆不換?事情不會發生?可能就不會發生所以這個是不是也請部裡面這邊跟兒盟或者是所有的相關單位以後所有的事情都必須要報告委員我們這個案子其實還沒有結案\n我們還是繼續有一些疑點或等等的這一些的話,除了在法規上面的要去做修正之外,其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。除了就責,因為行事責任的部分規施法的嘛,除了責任的釐清以外,我覺得制度怎麼讓它朝向?\n謝謝部長、謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.053 --> 00:11.196\n謝謝主席主席我請一下薛部長好我們請薛部長\n\n00:14.915 --> 00:32.878\n委員好不知道我剛剛聽了一句話所以我就調整一下我的執行順序就是說我們大概通常都是相信人是善良的整個制度的設計也都是用這個\n\n00:34.434 --> 01:00.087\n用這個來做利潤基礎善良可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌才會發生不幸那我現在就直接這樣子講就是說其實保姆跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的\n\n01:01.528 --> 01:22.447\n那這個信賴其實也就建立在彼此認知為善良對不對那也因為這樣子社工的工作量也大我今天也不想再談社工的工作量跟待遇的問題因為這個我們在本委員會討論太多次了\n\n01:29.850 --> 01:54.112\n這一次事件發生以後我第一個想到的就是現在會不會有很多社工其實是把訪視通常用通訊的方式來做替代應該是不會啦該去實地訪視的還是他們都有這樣做因為他完成之後也必須要做報告\n\n01:55.376 --> 02:11.746\n對嘛齁就是說不至於因為各項通信軟體的進步所以就未來的話如果在特殊狀況之下的話可以用這種視訊的話那我們會進一步去做規定對我就是講說像這一次最後一次訪視保姆是說家裡有人確診\n\n02:21.893 --> 02:44.668\n事訊可能可以作為取代可以來作為輔助的工具可是他只能在在在特殊狀況因為其實縱使是假如說假如說執行業務的人不要說保姆或誰執行業務的人有心要為惡其實\n\n02:49.226 --> 03:03.695\n沒有到現場去做訪視都很難察覺問題因為視訊本身其要作假也容易可是假如說萬一不得已的情況這個倒是可以作為替代\n\n03:08.356 --> 03:30.953\n部長我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣覺得台灣社會發生這樣子的一件事情覺得很痛心對小孩子也很不捨以外我有發現一個問題就是說以台灣資訊這麼多元這麼快速這麼發達的情況\n\n03:37.199 --> 03:51.090\n為什麼一個重大的孽童案件從去年12月底發生一直到3月份社會大眾才知道這個問題我覺得還蠻誇張的\n\n03:55.914 --> 04:17.209\n對這中間到底為什麼原因讓這一個事件對大眾來曝光為什麼會拖到三個月這當然我們也是很關心不過這應該是牽涉到這一個司法調查這案件司法調查是這樣子嘛司法調查是\n\n04:18.884 --> 04:37.882\n偵查的內容不公開可是案件通常會浮出檯面可是這個案子並沒有這個案子就是送到醫院的時候醫生從外觀來判斷從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除這個就是一看就是一個刑案\n\n04:39.232 --> 05:00.461\n然後警政機關也知道那看樣子是臺北的社會處一定知道、俄盟一定知道衛福部也知道可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情我覺得還蠻訝異的\n\n05:03.455 --> 05:28.362\n該委員報告我個人的判斷這中間的話是有一些誤解的地方也就是說對於司法案件進入司法程序的案件的話那就會所謂的偵查不公開但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍對比如說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題這個都是\n\n05:31.323 --> 05:50.936\n我們要自己去進行行政調查而不是說因為已經進入到司法所以這些就通通暫停不做司法調查跟行政調查本來就是不一樣但是可能不管是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的誤解\n\n05:53.127 --> 06:17.059\n以為說因為已經進入到司法調查所以大概這一些其他的工作可以暫緩等到司法調查結果出來那我們再繼續去做行政調查其實這個觀念是需要再做調整就是說台灣目前的新聞量不足然後新聞台過多的情況下\n\n06:18.363 --> 06:43.103\n昨天晚上我看到一則新聞就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡平常收150有一個司機收200就上新聞了結果我們這一件竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人我現在講的不是說公開的講就是私底下把訊息\n\n06:44.394 --> 06:50.759\n我應該是這樣講,對於這類的案件,行政機關在處理不管是地方還是總部在處理的過程當中,都不太會主動去告知媒體。第一個是這樣子,原則上不會主動去告知媒體。\n\n07:12.277 --> 07:39.153\n但是以過去的經驗雖然沒有主動告訴媒體媒體都還會知道為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體就通通都不知道這個事的確還是一個值得去探討的一個現象那我從這裡又想又引發另外一個問題就是說這是一個極度弱勢的家庭造成的悲劇\n\n07:40.481 --> 07:52.058\n假如說他家裡面還有其他的人我想這件事情不至於會從事發到隔了將近三個月的時間\n\n07:54.271 --> 08:16.003\n所以弱勢家庭的保障真的是我們政府的責任我們不要說其他的機制上的東西光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢\n\n08:17.130 --> 08:44.303\n我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就是說失聯了\n\n08:45.339 --> 08:48.200\n家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。\n\n08:59.755 --> 09:26.340\n那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說的很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這都讀到就算了\n\n09:28.360 --> 09:41.214\n但是因為這個案子後來進入到解剖法醫的驗屍方認為是他殺發現到這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道這我們就比較不清楚\n\n09:46.670 --> 10:10.502\n部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆\n\n10:11.943 --> 10:34.066\n那原本的保姆對他的照料是沒有問題的那因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作沒介工作所以換成兒盟的保姆這個有沒有必須?\n\n10:36.403 --> 10:57.688\n對,這其實是有違反了一些原則啦因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係而且中間沒有發現說有什麼樣的問題的話基本上是不應該去換這個保姆那至於說為什麼會換那這個我們就要進一步再去做理解到底他的動機是什麼樣子還是他的機制,兒童的機制到底是怎麼樣\n\n11:02.209 --> 11:24.528\n因為就兒童權利公約來看就是所有兒童的事務不管是公私立的社福機構、法院、行政部門都必須要以兒童最佳的利益為優先我覺得假如說這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件就是\n\n11:25.888 --> 11:47.975\n保姆沒有換?保姆不換?事情不會發生?可能就不會發生所以這個是不是也請部裡面這邊跟兒盟或者是所有的相關單位以後所有的事情都必須要報告委員我們這個案子其實還沒有結案\n\n11:49.316 --> 12:11.671\n我們還是繼續有一些疑點或等等的這一些的話,除了在法規上面的要去做修正之外,其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。除了就責,因為行事責任的部分規施法的嘛,除了責任的釐清以外,我覺得制度怎麼讓它朝向?\n\n12:14.033 --> 12:14.233\n謝謝部長、謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.053,"end":11.196,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我請一下薛部長好 我們請薛部長"},{"start":14.915,"end":32.878,"text":"委員好不知道我剛剛聽了一句話所以我就調整一下我的執行順序就是說我們大概通常都是相信人是善良的整個制度的設計也都是用這個"},{"start":34.434,"end":60.087,"text":"用這個來做利潤基礎善良可是總是會有一些人偏離人生的常軌跟社會預期的常軌才會發生不幸那我現在就直接這樣子講就是說其實保姆跟社工他們之間其實是必須要有信賴關係的"},{"start":61.528,"end":82.447,"text":"那這個信賴其實也就建立在彼此認知為善良 對不對那也因為這樣子社工的工作量也大我今天也不想再談社工的工作量跟待遇的問題因為這個我們在本委員會討論太多次了"},{"start":89.85,"end":114.112,"text":"這一次事件發生以後我第一個想到的就是現在會不會有很多社工其實是把訪視通常用通訊的方式來做替代應該是不會啦該去實地訪視的還是他們都有這樣做因為他完成之後也必須要做報告"},{"start":115.376,"end":131.746,"text":"對嘛齁就是說不至於因為各項通信軟體的進步所以就未來的話如果在特殊狀況之下的話可以用這種視訊的話那我們會進一步去做規定對我就是講說像這一次最後一次訪視保姆是說家裡有人確診"},{"start":141.893,"end":164.668,"text":"事訊可能可以作為取代可以來作為輔助的工具可是他只能在在在特殊狀況因為其實縱使是假如說假如說執行業務的人不要說保姆或誰執行業務的人有心要為惡其實"},{"start":169.226,"end":183.695,"text":"沒有到現場去做訪視都很難察覺問題因為視訊本身其要作假也容易可是假如說萬一不得已的情況這個倒是可以作為替代"},{"start":188.356,"end":210.953,"text":"部長我個人對於這一件事情除了跟大家一樣覺得台灣社會發生這樣子的一件事情覺得很痛心對小孩子也很不捨以外我有發現一個問題就是說以台灣資訊這麼多元這麼快速這麼發達的情況"},{"start":217.199,"end":231.09,"text":"為什麼一個重大的孽童案件從去年12月底發生一直到3月份社會大眾才知道這個問題我覺得還蠻誇張的"},{"start":235.914,"end":257.209,"text":"對這中間到底為什麼原因讓這一個事件對大眾來曝光為什麼會拖到三個月這當然我們也是很關心不過這應該是牽涉到這一個司法調查這案件司法調查是這樣子嘛司法調查是"},{"start":258.884,"end":277.882,"text":"偵查的內容不公開可是案件通常會浮出檯面可是這個案子並沒有這個案子就是送到醫院的時候醫生從外觀來判斷從下體的燒傷到指甲的拔除這個就是一看就是一個刑案"},{"start":279.232,"end":300.461,"text":"然後警政機關也知道那看樣子是臺北的社會處一定知道、俄盟一定知道衛福部也知道可是沒有任何一個相關的人向外界透露出有這麼一件事情我覺得還蠻訝異的"},{"start":303.455,"end":328.362,"text":"該委員報告我個人的判斷這中間的話是有一些誤解的地方也就是說對於司法案件進入司法程序的案件的話那就會所謂的偵查不公開但是偵查不公開其實是有一定的範圍對比如說行政上面有沒有什麼樣的缺漏聯繫上面有沒有什麼樣的問題這個都是"},{"start":331.323,"end":350.936,"text":"我們要自己去進行行政調查而不是說因為已經進入到司法所以這些就通通暫停不做司法調查跟行政調查本來就是不一樣但是可能不管是地方還是我們中央的同仁都有這樣子的誤解"},{"start":353.127,"end":377.059,"text":"以為說因為已經進入到司法調查所以大概這一些其他的工作可以暫緩等到司法調查結果出來那我們再繼續去做行政調查其實這個觀念是需要再做調整就是說台灣目前的新聞量不足然後新聞台過多的情況下"},{"start":378.363,"end":403.103,"text":"昨天晚上我看到一則新聞就是從這裡搭計程車到那裡平常收150有一個司機收200就上新聞了結果我們這一件竟然從送醫院開始到所有相關的人我現在講的不是說公開的講就是私底下把訊息"},{"start":404.394,"end":410.759,"text":"我應該是這樣講,對於這類的案件,行政機關在處理不管是地方還是總部在處理的過程當中,都不太會主動去告知媒體。第一個是這樣子,原則上不會主動去告知媒體。"},{"start":432.277,"end":459.153,"text":"但是以過去的經驗雖然沒有主動告訴媒體媒體都還會知道為什麼這個案子因為沒有告訴媒體就通通都不知道這個事的確還是一個值得去探討的一個現象那我從這裡又想又引發另外一個問題就是說這是一個極度弱勢的家庭造成的悲劇"},{"start":460.481,"end":472.058,"text":"假如說他家裡面還有其他的人我想這件事情不至於會從事發到隔了將近三個月的時間"},{"start":474.271,"end":496.003,"text":"所以弱勢家庭的保障真的是我們政府的責任我們不要說其他的機制上的東西光是他跟外界的連結就可以判斷出來這個家庭有多弱勢"},{"start":497.13,"end":524.303,"text":"我相信假如說是一般的縱使也是委託出養假如說不是只剩下一個老祖母我想這件事情也不至於拖到現在部長我這樣子講有沒有道理事實上他的家庭裡面也不是只有祖母他祖父也還在對就是都是隔代了吧他可能跟外界已經就是說失聯了"},{"start":525.339,"end":528.2,"text":"家裡會知道兒童過世的話,應該是兒福聯盟、媒合機構去跟他們講的。"},{"start":539.755,"end":566.34,"text":"那至於說他怎麼樣去描述這個死因等等這一些的話這我們並不是很清楚所以這部分當然還可以可以再進一步來瞭解那如果說沒有把這個死因說的很詳細的話那可能家屬就認為說啊這都讀到就算了"},{"start":568.36,"end":581.214,"text":"但是因為這個案子後來進入到解剖法醫的驗屍方認為是他殺發現到這個時候有沒有再讓家屬知道這我們就比較不清楚"},{"start":586.67,"end":610.502,"text":"部長我也不能問好問滿因為陳委員說他辦公室也有一個協調會我協調會也開到一半我最後再講一個問題就是說我們現在這個凱凱的案件他是原本就有一個保姆"},{"start":611.943,"end":634.066,"text":"那原本的保姆對他的照料是沒有問題的那因為兒盟負責出養的轉介工作沒介工作所以換成兒盟的保姆這個有沒有必須?"},{"start":636.403,"end":657.688,"text":"對,這其實是有違反了一些原則啦因為小孩子如果已經產生依附關係而且中間沒有發現說有什麼樣的問題的話基本上是不應該去換這個保姆那至於說為什麼會換那這個我們就要進一步再去做理解到底他的動機是什麼樣子還是他的機制,兒童的機制到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":662.209,"end":684.528,"text":"因為就兒童權利公約來看就是所有兒童的事務不管是公私立的社福機構、法院、行政部門都必須要以兒童最佳的利益為優先我覺得假如說這一次有一個環節可以逆轉整個事件就是"},{"start":685.888,"end":707.975,"text":"保姆沒有換?保姆不換?事情不會發生?可能就不會發生所以這個是不是也請部裡面這邊跟兒盟或者是所有的相關單位以後所有的事情都必須要報告委員我們這個案子其實還沒有結案"},{"start":709.316,"end":731.671,"text":"我們還是繼續有一些疑點或等等的這一些的話,除了在法規上面的要去做修正之外,其實有一些問題我們還是會繼續追下去。除了就責,因為行事責任的部分規施法的嘛,除了責任的釐清以外,我覺得制度怎麼讓它朝向?"},{"start":734.033,"end":734.233,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝主席"}]}}}}