{"id":150049,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac2b1c14555c84d0125cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a66b63852e99275fcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"16:31:39 - 16:44:33","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":774,"end_time":"2024-03-18T16:44:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T16:31:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2345,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（16時31分）謝謝主席，如同剛剛孟楷委員所說的程序發言，我也想再說一下。我今天真的沒想到會排這麼後面，我覺得5分鐘不是很快嗎？原來我們召委真的是讓大家暢所欲言，不分藍綠白，我想這跟早上所看到的現象差距很大，早上會擔心她完全不公正，但是不分藍綠白讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題，我想召委更能顯示出她公平的用意，最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講，絕無前例，我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長上臺，讓他能夠報告，這真的讓我們覺得非常匪夷所思。","有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好，這是我第三次跟你的對談，總質詢1次、上次在衛環委員會1次，在這個事件當中，今天很多人都在檢討，不管是我們事前大家探討的，我們希望有個托育專法，甚至相關的刑罰能夠加重，到今天去檢討收出養的機制，還有剛剛很多同仁一起為社工發聲、為托育人員發聲。大家今天探討了一整天，你剛剛也特別提到一個禮拜會提出新的報告，讓我們能夠看到，我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後的報告，也希望你能夠用心把這個部分補足，讓我們能夠全面性做個檢討。關於剴剴事件，當然我們極力的譴責，我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等，相關人等有任何違法應該予以重刑。但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏，也造成這一件遺憾，我要講的是，中央、地方都有責任，我不是一味的要把它推卸給任何一個單位，但是我們關注的是希望藉由這件事情發生，我們怎麼去把它給彌補出來。第一，我想政府的保母訓練怎麼會發給劉姓保母證照？網路上也有在探討，我們之前當過里長，我當里長的時候也辦過托育人員考證照的課程，還有最後的考試，我們都經歷過，這個我都知道，但是劉姓保母並非第一次虐童，這件事情網路上也有在說，是真的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好像沒有接到這樣的通報。"],["羅委員廷瑋：網路新聞有這樣的謠傳。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該沒有這樣子的通報。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有正式的通報？好，那我們會後再來了解，我也把相關的資料提給衛福部，我們再來了解一下，因為就我所知道，的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳，那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白，避免讓民眾誤會。其實如果他不是第一次，那又讓他這樣子的話，我想對衛福部來說是很受打擊的一個傳言。","再來就是在有證不等於保證的情況之下，在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母，我想就是我們今天這件事關鍵的一個重點，重點是在這些個案，我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有的保母都一桿子打翻所有的人，我想托育人員以及社工的士氣真的非常的低迷，我想這個部分也是我們今天要探討的，在剴剴這樣一個特殊的孩子的背景之下，他沒有爸爸媽媽疼愛，祖父母也養不起，所以只能選擇出養，但有這麼多的保母，為什麼會選擇劉姓保母，他的標準在哪裡？這個部分你要補充嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：在這個案子裡面，這個保母的選擇是由兒盟去做選擇。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，對不起、對不起，因為聲音有點小聲。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇，在這個案子裡面，我們也是覺得這樣的選擇會有一個任意性，那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童最佳利益的目的，所以未來我們會做檢討，我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然對於蓄意、惡意的這種兒虐行為，事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試、考核都不容易找得出來，所以真的要預防的話，就是我們必須建立一個機制，讓多方的訪查來互相做check跟監督，這樣會比較有效。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。那我就補充一下，臺北市政府社會局3月12日的新聞稿裡面就有提到：建議中央應制定三方權責、縣市共訪的一個機制。所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不太清楚它的共訪是如何，如果同時三方一起去的話，大概效果就不好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：應該是說建置這個機制，三方的一個……"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是三方怎麼樣來串聯，然後資訊能夠互相的share，這個才是比較有效的。如此對於不良的保姆，他也比較會怕，因為他如果做了不好的事情的話，就算一個沒有被看到，兩個、三個可能就會被發現。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿，你也認同朝這個方向去建置這樣子的一個串聯、權責的一個共同機制……"],["薛部長瑞元：但我是不贊成同時去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺，勞師動眾，但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來，分工去做一個部署，這個部分朝這個方向可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們現在就是打算這樣做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。","再來，不好意思，因為我不確定你能不能很適時的去蒐集許多的網路言論以及網路的一些相關資訊，但我這邊會後我想提供包括臺中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書，到現在基北北桃，我們看到有一些相關托育人員的互助發展協會也推出他們自己的一些相關建議，這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來交給衛福部做一個參考的依據，因為念出來「落落長」，內容很多，但我想很多人都有很多的想法，但我們做民意代表，把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部，我想這是應該的。其中有一個就是我們要講的，你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練，對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：他們其中有一個訴求，請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練，他們有一個訴求……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個應該沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我沒有要你馬上……您說可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是沒有什麼問題，但是這個訓練的場所要能夠有這種臨托，因為小孩子總是要……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是就是您安排在職訓練，我們強制要求他要在職訓練，因為也是事實的回訪。可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面，的確啊！他就是托育人員，若他跟我說：「對不起、羅廷瑋立委，今天我不帶你的孩子了，麻煩你把你的孩子帶回去，因為我要在職訓練」，這樣對我來說也是造成困擾，可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡，那我覺得我們應該好好想想我們怎麼協助他，讓他在職訓練的過程當中工作持續穩定，也不會影響到所有的家長，對不對？總不能叫我帶回去吧？那您就要看著我抱著孩子來這邊質詢了嘛，對不對？我想這是我們不樂見的，但這就是他們的訴求之一。我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久，沒有去改善，這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦，但就是已長期累積。那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您，您能夠幫忙協助一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：請委員再……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想還有很多，雖然我們一直在推平價托育，但是什麼事情都是最便宜的話，這真的是家長要的嗎？給孩子最便宜的，難道就是我們一昧追求的嗎？我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員不是這麼的友善，他們也要生活，由於物價的通膨，我希望幫他們一直不斷的轉介這些聲音給你知道，所以這些訴求裡面都有這些聲音，我希望你能夠通盤檢討。當然我們尋求圓滿，希望家長、政府還有托育人員都能夠三贏之外，我也要藉這一次的機會特別跟您分享，剛剛有很多人為社工講話，他們士氣低迷，真的，很多人為了薪水、為了人員不足，那我們也都知道問題所在，剛剛你也說要面對問題，所以要提出報告了嘛，對不對？本席真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況，還有社工人員的薪資權益，我們都要好好的重視，幫助他們。","最後想請問一下，每年4月2號為我國的社工日，因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工師法來做過一個紀念日，我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題了，社工的工作是什麼，這些我都不再問了，但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議，部長會對此有回應嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：來的時候，我們會有人去接待、接見他們。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，本席建議啦，您辛苦了，是不是有機會由您去親自地面對他們，也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工。"],["薛部長瑞元：我看一下這個時間上面是否OK啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果有時間的話，您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，如果有時間的話是可以，不過我沒有把握一定可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道。因為平時業務也真的很多啦，有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議，但我真的是要特別麻煩你，如果有空的話，希望你親自去；如果沒空，我希望你能夠真正展現出你的誠意，讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們，去了解他們的心聲。"],["薛部長瑞元：OK。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這些社工在這個時候真的士氣低迷，更需要我們強力的去幫助他們。","最後，對不起，我想再跟您討論一件事，衛福部專案裡面也有提到，我們現在要把邀集各地方政府研商訪視的頻率，部長，把兒虐的防治壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加諸在社工身上，我覺得有一點點是甩鍋給基層社工，並不是百分百的解答，這件事情當中，每一個環節都有問題，但是如果最後只是把這個頻率加諸在社工身上，事情就能夠防範的話，我是不太認同。您覺得呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實就這一點來講，應該是更細緻一點，就是你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣性質，所以需要增加訪視的頻率，而增加訪視的頻率指的是他當責的這一個社工要增加他的頻率，還是有本來就有多方面負責的，那大家都一起來，就是剛剛提到三方這樣子的機制來做？這個要討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，最後我想講就是訪視頻率這四個字太模糊了，會讓大家覺得好像就是一昧的增加次數。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果是精準如你說的更能夠把這個配套做好，如果更精準的去訪視比訪視頻率增加，我相信這更會是我們目前應該朝向的一個方向，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：我們謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢。","接下來我們請許宇甄。許宇甄、許宇甄委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","萬美玲、萬美玲、萬美玲委員不在。","吳沛憶、吳沛憶、吳沛憶委員不在。","王美惠、王美惠、王美惠委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","李坤城、李坤城、李坤城委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","我們請牛煦庭委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍"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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 770.902, \"end\": 771.062, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 771.062, \"end\": 771.382, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 771.382, \"end\": 771.502, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 771.502, \"end\": 772.003, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 772.003, \"end\": 772.163, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 772.163, \"end\": 772.523, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 772.523, \"end\": 772.923, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 772.923, \"end\": 773.023, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 773.023, \"end\": 773.043, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,094 --> 00:00:00,375\n本集完\n\n2\n00:00:16,109 --> 00:00:30,025\n好謝謝主席我想像就如同剛剛孟愷委員所說的程序發言我也想再說一下我覺得說今天真的是沒想到會排到這麼後面我一直覺得五分鐘不是很快嗎原來\n\n3\n00:00:31,486 --> 00:00:50,220\n我們朝委真的是讓大家暢所欲言不分藍綠白我想這跟早上所看到的現象完全就是差距很大早上會擔心說他完全不公正但不分藍綠白這樣子的一個方式讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題我想這個朝委更能夠顯現出他的公平的用意\n\n4\n00:00:50,760 --> 00:01:06,624\n那最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講絕無前例我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長來上台讓他能夠報告這真的是讓我們覺得非常的匪夷所思那我想就有請部長好來請部長\n\n5\n00:01:14,059 --> 00:01:33,951\n委員好部長好部長這是我第三次跟您的對談總質詢一次上次在衛環委員會一次那我想在這個事件當中今天很多人都在檢討不管是我們事前大家在探討的我們希望有一個托育專法甚至相關的刑法能夠加重\n\n6\n00:01:34,591 --> 00:02:01,649\n到今天我們去檢討收出養的一個機制還有剛剛有許多的同仁我們一起為社工發聲為托育人員發聲我想大家今天探討了一整天你也剛剛有特別提到一個禮拜會提出最新的一個報告讓我們能夠看到我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後你的報告也希望你能夠用心把這個部分來把它補足讓我們能夠知道是全面性做一個檢討我想部長\n\n7\n00:02:03,249 --> 00:02:22,954\n凱凱這個事件我個人認為當然我們極力的譴責我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等相關人等有任何違法應該要予以重刑但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏也讓我們造成了這一件遺憾那我要講的是\n\n8\n00:02:23,755 --> 00:02:23,775\n羅廷瑋議員\n\n9\n00:02:37,641 --> 00:03:01,244\n第一個我想政府的保姆訓練啊怎麼會發給流性保姆證照因為網路上也有在探討我知道他有一些像我們之前當過里長我們在當里長的時候也辦過托育人員的考證照的一個課程還有還有他最後的考試我們都經歷過這個我都知道但流性保姆並非第一次虐童這件事情網路上有在說是真的嗎\n\n10\n00:03:02,963 --> 00:03:07,037\n這好像沒有接到這樣子的一個...網路的新聞有在做這樣子的謠傳\n\n11\n00:03:10,848 --> 00:03:37,703\n應該沒有這樣子的一個通報沒有正式的一個通報好那我們會後再來瞭解我也把相關的資料能夠提給衛福部我們再來瞭解一下因為就我所知道是的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白避免讓民眾誤會衛福部其實如果是真的他不是第一次那又讓他這樣子的話我想對衛福部來說是一個很受打擊的一個傳言那再來就是\n\n12\n00:03:38,243 --> 00:03:57,512\n在有證不等於保證的情況之下在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母我想就是這件事我們今天關鍵的一個重點重點是在這些個案我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有所有的保母都\n\n13\n00:03:59,112 --> 00:04:00,013\n這部分你有要補充嗎?\n\n14\n00:04:27,336 --> 00:04:32,802\n這一個保姆的選擇在這個案子裡面是由兒盟去做選擇的\n\n15\n00:04:34,242 --> 00:05:02,201\n部長對不起因為聲音有點小聲就是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇在這個案子裡面所以我們也是覺得說這樣子的一個選擇會有一個任意性那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童的最佳利益的這樣子的目的所以未來我們會做檢討我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善\n\n16\n00:05:06,203 --> 00:05:29,139\n請說當然這種對於蓄意的惡意的這種惡劣的這種行為的話事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試考核都不容易找得出來所以真的要預防的話就是我們必須建立一個機制讓這個多方的一個訪查\n\n17\n00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:55,098\n來互相來做這個check跟監督這樣會比較有效那我就補充一下臺北市政府的一個社會局3月12的新聞稿那我想它裡面就有提到建議中央應制定三方全責縣市共訪的一個機制所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎我是不太清楚它的共訪是這樣如果同時三方一起去的話大概效果就不好\n\n18\n00:05:56,959 --> 00:06:22,320\n應該是說建制這個機制,三方的一個串聯,然後資訊能夠互相分享,這個才是比較有效的。對於這個不良的保姆的話,他也比較會怕,因為他如果做了不好的事情的話,總是一個沒有看到,兩個三個可能就會被發現。\n\n19\n00:06:23,281 --> 00:06:47,422\n對,所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿啦你也認同朝這個方向去建制這樣子的一個串聯權責的一個共同機制對,但是我是不贊成說同時去啦當然啦,當然就是三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺老師動眾啦但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來分工去做一個部署我覺得這個部分朝向這個方向可以嗎?\n\n20\n00:06:47,962 --> 00:07:07,153\n對,我們現在就是打算這樣做。好,那再來呢,我也要跟你,因為不好意思我不確定您能不能很適時的去收集許多的網路言論,以及網路的一些相關資訊。但我這邊呢,會後我想提供,包括台中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書。到現在,雞北北桃\n\n21\n00:07:08,194 --> 00:07:35,043\n我們看到有一些相關托育人員他們的互助發展協會也有推出他們自己的一個相關建議這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來能夠來交給衛福部能夠做一個參考的依據我想因為唸出來漏漏等啦很多但我想很多人都有很多的想法但事實我們作為民意代表把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部我想這是應該的其中有一個就是我們要講的喔\n\n22\n00:07:35,703 --> 00:07:49,539\n你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練對吧那他們其中有一個訴求請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練\n\n23\n00:07:51,653 --> 00:08:17,102\n他們有一個訴求,我沒有要你馬上,您說可以嗎?應該是沒有什麼問題,但是就是說這個訓練的場所要能夠有這種零託,因為小孩子總是要訓練但是就是您安排在職訓練嘛,我們強制要求他要在職訓練嘛,因為也是適時的回訪嘛可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面,的確啊,他就是托育人員\n\n24\n00:08:20,704 --> 00:08:43,659\n對我來說也是造成困擾啊可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡那我覺得我們應該去好好想想我們怎麼協助他在職訓練的過程當中能夠讓他工作能夠持續穩定也不會影響到所有的家長對不對總不能叫我帶回去吧那您就要看著我抱著孩子在這邊質詢了嗎對不對我想這是我們不樂見的\n\n25\n00:08:46,221 --> 00:09:11,257\n但這就是訴求之一我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久沒有去改善但是這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦但是就長期累積對那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您您能夠幫忙協助一下我想包括還有很多我們一直在講我雖然我們一直在推托育評價但是什麼事情都是最便宜的\n\n26\n00:09:12,277 --> 00:09:27,630\n這真的是家長要的嗎?給孩子最便宜的難道就是我們一昧追求嗎?我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員不是這麼的友善啊他們也要生活物價的通膨我希望能夠幫他們一直不斷的能夠轉介到這些聲音給你知道\n\n27\n00:09:27,930 --> 00:09:42,051\n所以這些訴求裡面都有這些聲音我希望你能夠通盤檢討當然我們尋求圓滿的家長、政府還有托育人員都能夠三贏之外但我也要在這一次的機會特別跟您分享剛剛有很多人為社工講話\n\n28\n00:09:43,112 --> 00:10:07,637\n他們士氣低迷真的很多人為了他薪水為了人員不足那我們也都知道問題剛剛你也說要面對問題所以要提出報告了嘛對不對那我們真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況還有社工人員的薪資權益我們要好好的重視幫助他們那我最後想請問一下每年4月2號為我國的社工日齁因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工司法嘛來做過一個紀念日\n\n29\n00:10:08,888 --> 00:10:21,165\n那我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題社工的工作是什麼這些我都不再問了但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議部長會對此有回應嗎?\n\n30\n00:10:23,650 --> 00:10:46,277\n來的時候我們會有人去接待他們、見見他們本席建議啦您辛苦了是不是有機會您去親自的面對他們也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工我看一下這個時間上面是否OK啦那如果有時間的話您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎\n\n31\n00:10:47,676 --> 00:11:03,429\n呃當然如果有時間的話是可以的不過我沒有把握說一定好我知道因為平時也真的很多的業務啦有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議但我我真的是要真的特別麻煩你如果有空的話請讓你親自去如果沒空\n\n32\n00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:23,488\n我希望你能夠真正展現出權益展現出你的誠意讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們去了解他們的心聲我想這些社工真的在這個時候他們都真的士氣低迷更需要我們強力的去幫助他們最後對不起我想再跟您討論這個衛福部專案裡面也有提到\n\n33\n00:11:24,048 --> 00:11:42,525\n我們現在要把這個邀集各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率我想部長把額略的防制壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加注在社工身上我覺得有一點點就是甩鍋給基層社工我覺得並不是百分百的解答\n\n34\n00:11:43,366 --> 00:11:43,906\n其實就這一點來講應該更細緻一點\n\n35\n00:12:01,832 --> 00:12:26,366\n你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣的性質所以需要增加訪視的頻率那增加訪視的頻率指的是說他當者的這一個社工要增加他的頻率還是說有多方面本來就有多方面負責的那大家都一起來就剛剛提到了這三方的這樣子的一個接訪那這樣子的機制來做這個要討論\n\n36\n00:12:30,008 --> 00:12:53,043\n最後我想講訪視頻率這四個字太模糊了會讓大家覺得好像就是一昧的增加次數那如果是精準的就像你說的能夠更把這個配套做好我相信如果更精準的去訪視比訪視頻率增加更讓我們是應該目前朝向的一個方向可以嗎可以好謝謝部長好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n94\t375\t本集完\n16109\t30025\t好 謝謝主席我想像就如同剛剛孟愷委員所說的程序發言我也想再說一下我覺得說今天真的是沒想到會排到這麼後面我一直覺得五分鐘不是很快嗎 原來\n31486\t50220\t我們朝委真的是讓大家暢所欲言不分藍綠白我想這跟早上所看到的現象完全就是差距很大早上會擔心說他完全不公正但不分藍綠白這樣子的一個方式讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題我想這個朝委更能夠顯現出他的公平的用意\n50760\t66624\t那最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講絕無前例我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長來上台讓他能夠報告這真的是讓我們覺得非常的匪夷所思那我想就有請部長好來請部長\n74059\t93951\t委員好部長好部長這是我第三次跟您的對談總質詢一次上次在衛環委員會一次那我想在這個事件當中今天很多人都在檢討不管是我們事前大家在探討的我們希望有一個托育專法甚至相關的刑法能夠加重\n94591\t121649\t到今天我們去檢討收出養的一個機制還有剛剛有許多的同仁我們一起為社工發聲為托育人員發聲我想大家今天探討了一整天你也剛剛有特別提到一個禮拜會提出最新的一個報告讓我們能夠看到我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後你的報告也希望你能夠用心把這個部分來把它補足讓我們能夠知道是全面性做一個檢討我想部長\n123249\t142954\t凱凱這個事件我個人認為當然我們極力的譴責我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等相關人等有任何違法應該要予以重刑但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏也讓我們造成了這一件遺憾那我要講的是\n143755\t143775\t羅廷瑋議員\n157641\t181244\t第一個我想政府的保姆訓練啊怎麼會發給流性保姆證照因為網路上也有在探討我知道他有一些像我們之前當過里長我們在當里長的時候也辦過托育人員的考證照的一個課程還有還有他最後的考試我們都經歷過這個我都知道但流性保姆並非第一次虐童這件事情網路上有在說是真的嗎\n182963\t187037\t這好像沒有接到這樣子的一個...網路的新聞有在做這樣子的謠傳\n190848\t217703\t應該沒有這樣子的一個通報沒有正式的一個通報好那我們會後再來瞭解我也把相關的資料能夠提給衛福部我們再來瞭解一下因為就我所知道是的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白避免讓民眾誤會衛福部其實如果是真的他不是第一次那又讓他這樣子的話我想對衛福部來說是一個很受打擊的一個傳言那再來就是\n218243\t237512\t在有證不等於保證的情況之下在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母我想就是這件事我們今天關鍵的一個重點重點是在這些個案我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有所有的保母都\n239112\t240013\t這部分你有要補充嗎?\n267336\t272802\t這一個保姆的選擇在這個案子裡面是由兒盟去做選擇的\n274242\t302201\t部長對不起因為聲音有點小聲就是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇在這個案子裡面所以我們也是覺得說這樣子的一個選擇會有一個任意性那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童的最佳利益的這樣子的目的所以未來我們會做檢討我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善\n306203\t329139\t請說當然這種對於蓄意的惡意的這種惡劣的這種行為的話事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試考核都不容易找得出來所以真的要預防的話就是我們必須建立一個機制讓這個多方的一個訪查\n330460\t355098\t來互相來做這個check跟監督 這樣會比較有效那我就補充一下臺北市政府的一個社會局3月12的新聞稿那我想它裡面就有提到建議中央應制定三方全責縣市共訪的一個機制所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎我是不太清楚它的共訪是這樣 如果同時三方一起去的話大概效果就不好\n356959\t382320\t應該是說建制這個機制,三方的一個串聯,然後資訊能夠互相分享,這個才是比較有效的。對於這個不良的保姆的話,他也比較會怕,因為他如果做了不好的事情的話,總是一個沒有看到,兩個三個可能就會被發現。\n383281\t407422\t對,所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿啦你也認同朝這個方向去建制這樣子的一個串聯權責的一個共同機制對,但是我是不贊成說同時去啦當然啦,當然就是三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺老師動眾啦但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來分工去做一個部署我覺得這個部分朝向這個方向可以嗎?\n407962\t427153\t對,我們現在就是打算這樣做。好,那再來呢,我也要跟你,因為不好意思我不確定您能不能很適時的去收集許多的網路言論,以及網路的一些相關資訊。但我這邊呢,會後我想提供,包括台中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書。到現在,雞北北桃\n428194\t455043\t我們看到有一些相關托育人員他們的互助發展協會也有推出他們自己的一個相關建議這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來能夠來交給衛福部能夠做一個參考的依據我想因為唸出來漏漏等啦很多但我想很多人都有很多的想法但事實我們作為民意代表把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部我想這是應該的其中有一個就是我們要講的喔\n455703\t469539\t你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練對吧那他們其中有一個訴求請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練\n471653\t497102\t他們有一個訴求,我沒有要你馬上,您說可以嗎?應該是沒有什麼問題,但是就是說這個訓練的場所要能夠有這種零託,因為小孩子總是要訓練但是就是您安排在職訓練嘛,我們強制要求他要在職訓練嘛,因為也是適時的回訪嘛可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面,的確啊,他就是托育人員\n500704\t523659\t對我來說也是造成困擾啊可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡那我覺得我們應該去好好想想我們怎麼協助他在職訓練的過程當中能夠讓他工作能夠持續穩定也不會影響到所有的家長對不對總不能叫我帶回去吧那您就要看著我抱著孩子在這邊質詢了嗎對不對我想這是我們不樂見的\n526221\t551257\t但這就是訴求之一我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久沒有去改善但是這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦但是就長期累積對那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您您能夠幫忙協助一下我想包括還有很多我們一直在講我雖然我們一直在推托育評價但是什麼事情都是最便宜的\n552277\t567630\t這真的是家長要的嗎?給孩子最便宜的難道就是我們一昧追求嗎?我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員不是這麼的友善啊他們也要生活物價的通膨我希望能夠幫他們一直不斷的能夠轉介到這些聲音給你知道\n567930\t582051\t所以這些訴求裡面都有這些聲音我希望你能夠通盤檢討當然我們尋求圓滿的家長、政府還有托育人員都能夠三贏之外但我也要在這一次的機會特別跟您分享剛剛有很多人為社工講話\n583112\t607637\t他們士氣低迷真的很多人為了他薪水為了人員不足那我們也都知道問題剛剛你也說要面對問題所以要提出報告了嘛對不對那我們真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況還有社工人員的薪資權益我們要好好的重視幫助他們那我最後想請問一下每年4月2號為我國的社工日齁因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工司法嘛來做過一個紀念日\n608888\t621165\t那我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題社工的工作是什麼這些我都不再問了但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議部長會對此有回應嗎?\n623650\t646277\t來的時候我們會有人去接待他們、見見他們本席建議啦您辛苦了是不是有機會您去親自的面對他們也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工我看一下這個時間上面是否OK啦那如果有時間的話您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎\n647676\t663429\t呃當然如果有時間的話是可以的不過我沒有把握說一定好我知道因為平時也真的很多的業務啦有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議但我我真的是要真的特別麻煩你如果有空的話請讓你親自去如果沒空\n663829\t683488\t我希望你能夠真正展現出權益展現出你的誠意讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們去了解他們的心聲我想這些社工真的在這個時候他們都真的士氣低迷更需要我們強力的去幫助他們最後對不起我想再跟您討論這個衛福部專案裡面也有提到\n684048\t702525\t我們現在要把這個邀集各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率我想部長把額略的防制壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加注在社工身上我覺得有一點點就是甩鍋給基層社工我覺得並不是百分百的解答\n703366\t703906\t其實就這一點來講應該更細緻一點\n721832\t746366\t你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣的性質所以需要增加訪視的頻率那增加訪視的頻率指的是說他當者的這一個社工要增加他的頻率還是說有多方面本來就有多方面負責的那大家都一起來就剛剛提到了這三方的這樣子的一個接訪那這樣子的機制來做這個要討論\n750008\t773043\t最後我想講訪視頻率這四個字太模糊了會讓大家覺得好像就是一昧的增加次數那如果是精準的就像你說的能夠更把這個配套做好我相信如果更精準的去訪視比訪視頻率增加更讓我們是應該目前朝向的一個方向可以嗎可以好謝謝部長好謝謝\n","txt":"本集完\n好 謝謝主席我想像就如同剛剛孟愷委員所說的程序發言我也想再說一下我覺得說今天真的是沒想到會排到這麼後面我一直覺得五分鐘不是很快嗎 原來\n我們朝委真的是讓大家暢所欲言不分藍綠白我想這跟早上所看到的現象完全就是差距很大早上會擔心說他完全不公正但不分藍綠白這樣子的一個方式讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題我想這個朝委更能夠顯現出他的公平的用意\n那最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講絕無前例我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長來上台讓他能夠報告這真的是讓我們覺得非常的匪夷所思那我想就有請部長好來請部長\n委員好部長好部長這是我第三次跟您的對談總質詢一次上次在衛環委員會一次那我想在這個事件當中今天很多人都在檢討不管是我們事前大家在探討的我們希望有一個托育專法甚至相關的刑法能夠加重\n到今天我們去檢討收出養的一個機制還有剛剛有許多的同仁我們一起為社工發聲為托育人員發聲我想大家今天探討了一整天你也剛剛有特別提到一個禮拜會提出最新的一個報告讓我們能夠看到我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後你的報告也希望你能夠用心把這個部分來把它補足讓我們能夠知道是全面性做一個檢討我想部長\n凱凱這個事件我個人認為當然我們極力的譴責我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等相關人等有任何違法應該要予以重刑但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏也讓我們造成了這一件遺憾那我要講的是\n羅廷瑋議員\n第一個我想政府的保姆訓練啊怎麼會發給流性保姆證照因為網路上也有在探討我知道他有一些像我們之前當過里長我們在當里長的時候也辦過托育人員的考證照的一個課程還有還有他最後的考試我們都經歷過這個我都知道但流性保姆並非第一次虐童這件事情網路上有在說是真的嗎\n這好像沒有接到這樣子的一個...網路的新聞有在做這樣子的謠傳\n應該沒有這樣子的一個通報沒有正式的一個通報好那我們會後再來瞭解我也把相關的資料能夠提給衛福部我們再來瞭解一下因為就我所知道是的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白避免讓民眾誤會衛福部其實如果是真的他不是第一次那又讓他這樣子的話我想對衛福部來說是一個很受打擊的一個傳言那再來就是\n在有證不等於保證的情況之下在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母我想就是這件事我們今天關鍵的一個重點重點是在這些個案我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有所有的保母都\n這部分你有要補充嗎?\n這一個保姆的選擇在這個案子裡面是由兒盟去做選擇的\n部長對不起因為聲音有點小聲就是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇在這個案子裡面所以我們也是覺得說這樣子的一個選擇會有一個任意性那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童的最佳利益的這樣子的目的所以未來我們會做檢討我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善\n請說當然這種對於蓄意的惡意的這種惡劣的這種行為的話事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試考核都不容易找得出來所以真的要預防的話就是我們必須建立一個機制讓這個多方的一個訪查\n來互相來做這個check跟監督 這樣會比較有效那我就補充一下臺北市政府的一個社會局3月12的新聞稿那我想它裡面就有提到建議中央應制定三方全責縣市共訪的一個機制所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎我是不太清楚它的共訪是這樣 如果同時三方一起去的話大概效果就不好\n應該是說建制這個機制,三方的一個串聯,然後資訊能夠互相分享,這個才是比較有效的。對於這個不良的保姆的話,他也比較會怕,因為他如果做了不好的事情的話,總是一個沒有看到,兩個三個可能就會被發現。\n對,所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿啦你也認同朝這個方向去建制這樣子的一個串聯權責的一個共同機制對,但是我是不贊成說同時去啦當然啦,當然就是三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺老師動眾啦但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來分工去做一個部署我覺得這個部分朝向這個方向可以嗎?\n對,我們現在就是打算這樣做。好,那再來呢,我也要跟你,因為不好意思我不確定您能不能很適時的去收集許多的網路言論,以及網路的一些相關資訊。但我這邊呢,會後我想提供,包括台中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書。到現在,雞北北桃\n我們看到有一些相關托育人員他們的互助發展協會也有推出他們自己的一個相關建議這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來能夠來交給衛福部能夠做一個參考的依據我想因為唸出來漏漏等啦很多但我想很多人都有很多的想法但事實我們作為民意代表把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部我想這是應該的其中有一個就是我們要講的喔\n你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練對吧那他們其中有一個訴求請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練\n他們有一個訴求,我沒有要你馬上,您說可以嗎?應該是沒有什麼問題,但是就是說這個訓練的場所要能夠有這種零託,因為小孩子總是要訓練但是就是您安排在職訓練嘛,我們強制要求他要在職訓練嘛,因為也是適時的回訪嘛可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面,的確啊,他就是托育人員\n對我來說也是造成困擾啊可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡那我覺得我們應該去好好想想我們怎麼協助他在職訓練的過程當中能夠讓他工作能夠持續穩定也不會影響到所有的家長對不對總不能叫我帶回去吧那您就要看著我抱著孩子在這邊質詢了嗎對不對我想這是我們不樂見的\n但這就是訴求之一我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久沒有去改善但是這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦但是就長期累積對那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您您能夠幫忙協助一下我想包括還有很多我們一直在講我雖然我們一直在推托育評價但是什麼事情都是最便宜的\n這真的是家長要的嗎?給孩子最便宜的難道就是我們一昧追求嗎?我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員不是這麼的友善啊他們也要生活物價的通膨我希望能夠幫他們一直不斷的能夠轉介到這些聲音給你知道\n所以這些訴求裡面都有這些聲音我希望你能夠通盤檢討當然我們尋求圓滿的家長、政府還有托育人員都能夠三贏之外但我也要在這一次的機會特別跟您分享剛剛有很多人為社工講話\n他們士氣低迷真的很多人為了他薪水為了人員不足那我們也都知道問題剛剛你也說要面對問題所以要提出報告了嘛對不對那我們真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況還有社工人員的薪資權益我們要好好的重視幫助他們那我最後想請問一下每年4月2號為我國的社工日齁因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工司法嘛來做過一個紀念日\n那我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題社工的工作是什麼這些我都不再問了但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議部長會對此有回應嗎?\n來的時候我們會有人去接待他們、見見他們本席建議啦您辛苦了是不是有機會您去親自的面對他們也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工我看一下這個時間上面是否OK啦那如果有時間的話您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎\n呃當然如果有時間的話是可以的不過我沒有把握說一定好我知道因為平時也真的很多的業務啦有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議但我我真的是要真的特別麻煩你如果有空的話請讓你親自去如果沒空\n我希望你能夠真正展現出權益展現出你的誠意讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們去了解他們的心聲我想這些社工真的在這個時候他們都真的士氣低迷更需要我們強力的去幫助他們最後對不起我想再跟您討論這個衛福部專案裡面也有提到\n我們現在要把這個邀集各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率我想部長把額略的防制壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加注在社工身上我覺得有一點點就是甩鍋給基層社工我覺得並不是百分百的解答\n其實就這一點來講應該更細緻一點\n你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣的性質所以需要增加訪視的頻率那增加訪視的頻率指的是說他當者的這一個社工要增加他的頻率還是說有多方面本來就有多方面負責的那大家都一起來就剛剛提到了這三方的這樣子的一個接訪那這樣子的機制來做這個要討論\n最後我想講訪視頻率這四個字太模糊了會讓大家覺得好像就是一昧的增加次數那如果是精準的就像你說的能夠更把這個配套做好我相信如果更精準的去訪視比訪視頻率增加更讓我們是應該目前朝向的一個方向可以嗎可以好謝謝部長好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.094 --> 00:00.375\n本集完\n\n00:16.109 --> 00:30.025\n好謝謝主席我想像就如同剛剛孟愷委員所說的程序發言我也想再說一下我覺得說今天真的是沒想到會排到這麼後面我一直覺得五分鐘不是很快嗎原來\n\n00:31.486 --> 00:50.220\n我們朝委真的是讓大家暢所欲言不分藍綠白我想這跟早上所看到的現象完全就是差距很大早上會擔心說他完全不公正但不分藍綠白這樣子的一個方式讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題我想這個朝委更能夠顯現出他的公平的用意\n\n00:50.760 --> 01:06.624\n那最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講絕無前例我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長來上台讓他能夠報告這真的是讓我們覺得非常的匪夷所思那我想就有請部長好來請部長\n\n01:14.059 --> 01:33.951\n委員好部長好部長這是我第三次跟您的對談總質詢一次上次在衛環委員會一次那我想在這個事件當中今天很多人都在檢討不管是我們事前大家在探討的我們希望有一個托育專法甚至相關的刑法能夠加重\n\n01:34.591 --> 02:01.649\n到今天我們去檢討收出養的一個機制還有剛剛有許多的同仁我們一起為社工發聲為托育人員發聲我想大家今天探討了一整天你也剛剛有特別提到一個禮拜會提出最新的一個報告讓我們能夠看到我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後你的報告也希望你能夠用心把這個部分來把它補足讓我們能夠知道是全面性做一個檢討我想部長\n\n02:03.249 --> 02:22.954\n凱凱這個事件我個人認為當然我們極力的譴責我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等相關人等有任何違法應該要予以重刑但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏也讓我們造成了這一件遺憾那我要講的是\n\n02:23.755 --> 02:23.775\n羅廷瑋議員\n\n02:37.641 --> 03:01.244\n第一個我想政府的保姆訓練啊怎麼會發給流性保姆證照因為網路上也有在探討我知道他有一些像我們之前當過里長我們在當里長的時候也辦過托育人員的考證照的一個課程還有還有他最後的考試我們都經歷過這個我都知道但流性保姆並非第一次虐童這件事情網路上有在說是真的嗎\n\n03:02.963 --> 03:07.037\n這好像沒有接到這樣子的一個...網路的新聞有在做這樣子的謠傳\n\n03:10.848 --> 03:37.703\n應該沒有這樣子的一個通報沒有正式的一個通報好那我們會後再來瞭解我也把相關的資料能夠提給衛福部我們再來瞭解一下因為就我所知道是的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白避免讓民眾誤會衛福部其實如果是真的他不是第一次那又讓他這樣子的話我想對衛福部來說是一個很受打擊的一個傳言那再來就是\n\n03:38.243 --> 03:57.512\n在有證不等於保證的情況之下在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母我想就是這件事我們今天關鍵的一個重點重點是在這些個案我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有所有的保母都\n\n03:59.112 --> 04:00.013\n這部分你有要補充嗎?\n\n04:27.336 --> 04:32.802\n這一個保姆的選擇在這個案子裡面是由兒盟去做選擇的\n\n04:34.242 --> 05:02.201\n部長對不起因為聲音有點小聲就是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇在這個案子裡面所以我們也是覺得說這樣子的一個選擇會有一個任意性那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童的最佳利益的這樣子的目的所以未來我們會做檢討我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善\n\n05:06.203 --> 05:29.139\n請說當然這種對於蓄意的惡意的這種惡劣的這種行為的話事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試考核都不容易找得出來所以真的要預防的話就是我們必須建立一個機制讓這個多方的一個訪查\n\n05:30.460 --> 05:55.098\n來互相來做這個check跟監督這樣會比較有效那我就補充一下臺北市政府的一個社會局3月12的新聞稿那我想它裡面就有提到建議中央應制定三方全責縣市共訪的一個機制所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎我是不太清楚它的共訪是這樣如果同時三方一起去的話大概效果就不好\n\n05:56.959 --> 06:22.320\n應該是說建制這個機制,三方的一個串聯,然後資訊能夠互相分享,這個才是比較有效的。對於這個不良的保姆的話,他也比較會怕,因為他如果做了不好的事情的話,總是一個沒有看到,兩個三個可能就會被發現。\n\n06:23.281 --> 06:47.422\n對,所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿啦你也認同朝這個方向去建制這樣子的一個串聯權責的一個共同機制對,但是我是不贊成說同時去啦當然啦,當然就是三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺老師動眾啦但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來分工去做一個部署我覺得這個部分朝向這個方向可以嗎?\n\n06:47.962 --> 07:07.153\n對,我們現在就是打算這樣做。好,那再來呢,我也要跟你,因為不好意思我不確定您能不能很適時的去收集許多的網路言論,以及網路的一些相關資訊。但我這邊呢,會後我想提供,包括台中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書。到現在,雞北北桃\n\n07:08.194 --> 07:35.043\n我們看到有一些相關托育人員他們的互助發展協會也有推出他們自己的一個相關建議這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來能夠來交給衛福部能夠做一個參考的依據我想因為唸出來漏漏等啦很多但我想很多人都有很多的想法但事實我們作為民意代表把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部我想這是應該的其中有一個就是我們要講的喔\n\n07:35.703 --> 07:49.539\n你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練對吧那他們其中有一個訴求請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練\n\n07:51.653 --> 08:17.102\n他們有一個訴求,我沒有要你馬上,您說可以嗎?應該是沒有什麼問題,但是就是說這個訓練的場所要能夠有這種零託,因為小孩子總是要訓練但是就是您安排在職訓練嘛,我們強制要求他要在職訓練嘛,因為也是適時的回訪嘛可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面,的確啊,他就是托育人員\n\n08:20.704 --> 08:43.659\n對我來說也是造成困擾啊可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡那我覺得我們應該去好好想想我們怎麼協助他在職訓練的過程當中能夠讓他工作能夠持續穩定也不會影響到所有的家長對不對總不能叫我帶回去吧那您就要看著我抱著孩子在這邊質詢了嗎對不對我想這是我們不樂見的\n\n08:46.221 --> 09:11.257\n但這就是訴求之一我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久沒有去改善但是這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦但是就長期累積對那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您您能夠幫忙協助一下我想包括還有很多我們一直在講我雖然我們一直在推托育評價但是什麼事情都是最便宜的\n\n09:12.277 --> 09:27.630\n這真的是家長要的嗎?給孩子最便宜的難道就是我們一昧追求嗎?我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員不是這麼的友善啊他們也要生活物價的通膨我希望能夠幫他們一直不斷的能夠轉介到這些聲音給你知道\n\n09:27.930 --> 09:42.051\n所以這些訴求裡面都有這些聲音我希望你能夠通盤檢討當然我們尋求圓滿的家長、政府還有托育人員都能夠三贏之外但我也要在這一次的機會特別跟您分享剛剛有很多人為社工講話\n\n09:43.112 --> 10:07.637\n他們士氣低迷真的很多人為了他薪水為了人員不足那我們也都知道問題剛剛你也說要面對問題所以要提出報告了嘛對不對那我們真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況還有社工人員的薪資權益我們要好好的重視幫助他們那我最後想請問一下每年4月2號為我國的社工日齁因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工司法嘛來做過一個紀念日\n\n10:08.888 --> 10:21.165\n那我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題社工的工作是什麼這些我都不再問了但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議部長會對此有回應嗎?\n\n10:23.650 --> 10:46.277\n來的時候我們會有人去接待他們、見見他們本席建議啦您辛苦了是不是有機會您去親自的面對他們也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工我看一下這個時間上面是否OK啦那如果有時間的話您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎\n\n10:47.676 --> 11:03.429\n呃當然如果有時間的話是可以的不過我沒有把握說一定好我知道因為平時也真的很多的業務啦有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議但我我真的是要真的特別麻煩你如果有空的話請讓你親自去如果沒空\n\n11:03.829 --> 11:23.488\n我希望你能夠真正展現出權益展現出你的誠意讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們去了解他們的心聲我想這些社工真的在這個時候他們都真的士氣低迷更需要我們強力的去幫助他們最後對不起我想再跟您討論這個衛福部專案裡面也有提到\n\n11:24.048 --> 11:42.525\n我們現在要把這個邀集各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率我想部長把額略的防制壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加注在社工身上我覺得有一點點就是甩鍋給基層社工我覺得並不是百分百的解答\n\n11:43.366 --> 11:43.906\n其實就這一點來講應該更細緻一點\n\n12:01.832 --> 12:26.366\n你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣的性質所以需要增加訪視的頻率那增加訪視的頻率指的是說他當者的這一個社工要增加他的頻率還是說有多方面本來就有多方面負責的那大家都一起來就剛剛提到了這三方的這樣子的一個接訪那這樣子的機制來做這個要討論\n\n12:30.008 --> 12:53.043\n最後我想講訪視頻率這四個字太模糊了會讓大家覺得好像就是一昧的增加次數那如果是精準的就像你說的能夠更把這個配套做好我相信如果更精準的去訪視比訪視頻率增加更讓我們是應該目前朝向的一個方向可以嗎可以好謝謝部長好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.094,"end":0.375,"text":"本集完"},{"start":16.109,"end":30.025,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想像就如同剛剛孟愷委員所說的程序發言我也想再說一下我覺得說今天真的是沒想到會排到這麼後面我一直覺得五分鐘不是很快嗎 原來"},{"start":31.486,"end":50.22,"text":"我們朝委真的是讓大家暢所欲言不分藍綠白我想這跟早上所看到的現象完全就是差距很大早上會擔心說他完全不公正但不分藍綠白這樣子的一個方式讓大家暢所欲言關注這個議題我想這個朝委更能夠顯現出他的公平的用意"},{"start":50.76,"end":66.624,"text":"那最重要的是網路新聞特別一直在講絕無前例我們竟然是在野黨協助衛福部長來上台讓他能夠報告這真的是讓我們覺得非常的匪夷所思那我想就有請部長好來請部長"},{"start":74.059,"end":93.951,"text":"委員好部長好部長這是我第三次跟您的對談總質詢一次上次在衛環委員會一次那我想在這個事件當中今天很多人都在檢討不管是我們事前大家在探討的我們希望有一個托育專法甚至相關的刑法能夠加重"},{"start":94.591,"end":121.649,"text":"到今天我們去檢討收出養的一個機制還有剛剛有許多的同仁我們一起為社工發聲為托育人員發聲我想大家今天探討了一整天你也剛剛有特別提到一個禮拜會提出最新的一個報告讓我們能夠看到我們非常期待這一個禮拜之後你的報告也希望你能夠用心把這個部分來把它補足讓我們能夠知道是全面性做一個檢討我想部長"},{"start":123.249,"end":142.954,"text":"凱凱這個事件我個人認為當然我們極力的譴責我們也希望檢調能夠予以重刑來偵辦相關人等相關人等有任何違法應該要予以重刑但我覺得這很明顯就是制度上有一些疏漏也讓我們造成了這一件遺憾那我要講的是"},{"start":143.755,"end":143.775,"text":"羅廷瑋議員"},{"start":157.641,"end":181.244,"text":"第一個我想政府的保姆訓練啊怎麼會發給流性保姆證照因為網路上也有在探討我知道他有一些像我們之前當過里長我們在當里長的時候也辦過托育人員的考證照的一個課程還有還有他最後的考試我們都經歷過這個我都知道但流性保姆並非第一次虐童這件事情網路上有在說是真的嗎"},{"start":182.963,"end":187.037,"text":"這好像沒有接到這樣子的一個...網路的新聞有在做這樣子的謠傳"},{"start":190.848,"end":217.703,"text":"應該沒有這樣子的一個通報沒有正式的一個通報好那我們會後再來瞭解我也把相關的資料能夠提給衛福部我們再來瞭解一下因為就我所知道是的確有這樣子的新聞在流傳那我想政府有必要說清楚講明白避免讓民眾誤會衛福部其實如果是真的他不是第一次那又讓他這樣子的話我想對衛福部來說是一個很受打擊的一個傳言那再來就是"},{"start":218.243,"end":237.512,"text":"在有證不等於保證的情況之下在全國所有的保母裡面要如何抓出壞保母我想就是這件事我們今天關鍵的一個重點重點是在這些個案我想真的不要讓單一事件把所有所有的保母都"},{"start":239.112,"end":240.013,"text":"這部分你有要補充嗎?"},{"start":267.336,"end":272.802,"text":"這一個保姆的選擇在這個案子裡面是由兒盟去做選擇的"},{"start":274.242,"end":302.201,"text":"部長對不起因為聲音有點小聲就是兒福聯盟去做的一個選擇在這個案子裡面所以我們也是覺得說這樣子的一個選擇會有一個任意性那可能是沒有辦法去做到保護兒童的最佳利益的這樣子的目的所以未來我們會做檢討我們會把制度在這方面做一些改善"},{"start":306.203,"end":329.139,"text":"請說當然這種對於蓄意的惡意的這種惡劣的這種行為的話事實上在事前不管你用證照制度還是各種考試考核都不容易找得出來所以真的要預防的話就是我們必須建立一個機制讓這個多方的一個訪查"},{"start":330.46,"end":355.098,"text":"來互相來做這個check跟監督 這樣會比較有效那我就補充一下臺北市政府的一個社會局3月12的新聞稿那我想它裡面就有提到建議中央應制定三方全責縣市共訪的一個機制所以你的回應就是要回應這一個嗎我是不太清楚它的共訪是這樣 如果同時三方一起去的話大概效果就不好"},{"start":356.959,"end":382.32,"text":"應該是說建制這個機制,三方的一個串聯,然後資訊能夠互相分享,這個才是比較有效的。對於這個不良的保姆的話,他也比較會怕,因為他如果做了不好的事情的話,總是一個沒有看到,兩個三個可能就會被發現。"},{"start":383.281,"end":407.422,"text":"對,所以我們先不說要不要回應這一份新聞稿啦你也認同朝這個方向去建制這樣子的一個串聯權責的一個共同機制對,但是我是不贊成說同時去啦當然啦,當然就是三個單位一起去也感覺好像是聯合稽查的感覺老師動眾啦但是我覺得能夠把它給串聯起來分工去做一個部署我覺得這個部分朝向這個方向可以嗎?"},{"start":407.962,"end":427.153,"text":"對,我們現在就是打算這樣做。好,那再來呢,我也要跟你,因為不好意思我不確定您能不能很適時的去收集許多的網路言論,以及網路的一些相關資訊。但我這邊呢,會後我想提供,包括台中市托育人員發展協會的一個訴求書。到現在,雞北北桃"},{"start":428.194,"end":455.043,"text":"我們看到有一些相關托育人員他們的互助發展協會也有推出他們自己的一個相關建議這個部分我希望會後能夠提出來能夠來交給衛福部能夠做一個參考的依據我想因為唸出來漏漏等啦很多但我想很多人都有很多的想法但事實我們作為民意代表把他們的聲音轉達給衛福部我想這是應該的其中有一個就是我們要講的喔"},{"start":455.703,"end":469.539,"text":"你知道托育人員他們有所謂的在職訓練對吧那他們其中有一個訴求請允許收托安置兒的保母能帶著安置兒參與托育人員的在職訓練"},{"start":471.653,"end":497.102,"text":"他們有一個訴求,我沒有要你馬上,您說可以嗎?應該是沒有什麼問題,但是就是說這個訓練的場所要能夠有這種零託,因為小孩子總是要訓練但是就是您安排在職訓練嘛,我們強制要求他要在職訓練嘛,因為也是適時的回訪嘛可是今天我看到他的訴求裡面,的確啊,他就是托育人員"},{"start":500.704,"end":523.659,"text":"對我來說也是造成困擾啊可是今天他們的訴求就寫在這裡那我覺得我們應該去好好想想我們怎麼協助他在職訓練的過程當中能夠讓他工作能夠持續穩定也不會影響到所有的家長對不對總不能叫我帶回去吧那您就要看著我抱著孩子在這邊質詢了嗎對不對我想這是我們不樂見的"},{"start":526.221,"end":551.257,"text":"但這就是訴求之一我們發現到有些訴求是已經講了很久沒有去改善但是這些訴求可能是他們最切身的一個小痛苦但是就長期累積對那是不是會後我把這些東西都彙整給您您能夠幫忙協助一下我想包括還有很多我們一直在講我雖然我們一直在推托育評價但是什麼事情都是最便宜的"},{"start":552.277,"end":567.63,"text":"這真的是家長要的嗎?給孩子最便宜的難道就是我們一昧追求嗎?我想有些政策對於現在的托育人員不是這麼的友善啊他們也要生活物價的通膨我希望能夠幫他們一直不斷的能夠轉介到這些聲音給你知道"},{"start":567.93,"end":582.051,"text":"所以這些訴求裡面都有這些聲音我希望你能夠通盤檢討當然我們尋求圓滿的家長、政府還有托育人員都能夠三贏之外但我也要在這一次的機會特別跟您分享剛剛有很多人為社工講話"},{"start":583.112,"end":607.637,"text":"他們士氣低迷真的很多人為了他薪水為了人員不足那我們也都知道問題剛剛你也說要面對問題所以要提出報告了嘛對不對那我們真的希望包括托育人員的薪資狀況還有社工人員的薪資權益我們要好好的重視幫助他們那我最後想請問一下每年4月2號為我國的社工日齁因為那時我們有訂定這樣子的社工司法嘛來做過一個紀念日"},{"start":608.888,"end":621.165,"text":"那我也不再問你這個好像小學堂的問題社工的工作是什麼這些我都不再問了但我想問你3月20日上午10點社工職業工會要去衛福部門口抗議部長會對此有回應嗎?"},{"start":623.65,"end":646.277,"text":"來的時候我們會有人去接待他們、見見他們本席建議啦您辛苦了是不是有機會您去親自的面對他們也顯示部長的高度跟重視社工我看一下這個時間上面是否OK啦那如果有時間的話您願意出席去聽聽他們的心聲嗎"},{"start":647.676,"end":663.429,"text":"呃當然如果有時間的話是可以的不過我沒有把握說一定好我知道因為平時也真的很多的業務啦有可能也卡到相關的其他的會議但我我真的是要真的特別麻煩你如果有空的話請讓你親自去如果沒空"},{"start":663.829,"end":683.488,"text":"我希望你能夠真正展現出權益展現出你的誠意讓能夠真的代表你的人去接待他們去了解他們的心聲我想這些社工真的在這個時候他們都真的士氣低迷更需要我們強力的去幫助他們最後對不起我想再跟您討論這個衛福部專案裡面也有提到"},{"start":684.048,"end":702.525,"text":"我們現在要把這個邀集各地方政府延伸訪視的頻率我想部長把額略的防制壓力最後藉由訪視的頻率加注在社工身上我覺得有一點點就是甩鍋給基層社工我覺得並不是百分百的解答"},{"start":703.366,"end":703.906,"text":"其實就這一點來講應該更細緻一點"},{"start":721.832,"end":746.366,"text":"你針對的這個個案是屬於什麼樣的性質所以需要增加訪視的頻率那增加訪視的頻率指的是說他當者的這一個社工要增加他的頻率還是說有多方面本來就有多方面負責的那大家都一起來就剛剛提到了這三方的這樣子的一個接訪那這樣子的機制來做這個要討論"},{"start":750.008,"end":773.043,"text":"最後我想講訪視頻率這四個字太模糊了會讓大家覺得好像就是一昧的增加次數那如果是精準的就像你說的能夠更把這個配套做好我相信如果更精準的去訪視比訪視頻率增加更讓我們是應該目前朝向的一個方向可以嗎可以好謝謝部長好謝謝"}]}}}}