{"id":150050,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac96771b56c1647a925cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6611a6d135deb2ea05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"16:45:19 - 16:54:27","影片長度":"00:09:08","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-6"},"date":"2024-03-18","duration":548,"end_time":"2024-03-18T16:54:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-18T16:45:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2399,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（16時45分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部部長。"],["主席：好，我們請部長。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長好，部長辛苦了，這個客套話我們就不說了。這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受，也非常的難過，但本席認為除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外，從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的，因此在今天的質詢裡面提出了若干問題來跟部長做一下探討。從這個個案來看，其實可以看到：首先是社會安全網的漏洞，第二個是社工的人力荒，第三個是保母證照的審核跟收出養的制度。今天因為時間有限的關係，我把重點放在這個收出養的制度部分，希望部長可以好好回答，希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。","這個個案的前保母有意願收養，但是被制度排除於外，原因大概是什麼，是不是請部長先說明一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個事情當初他被排除的原因何在，我其實並沒有那麼清楚，不過聽聞有一說他是單親，但若是單親，如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話，並不一定就是作為排除的原因。但是重點可能是，如果原來那個保母要做收養人是一件事情，但是如果原來那個保母想要繼續照顧，就是收養前的照顧，那又是另外一件事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛看你後面要來支援的人好像有點不同的意見，你要不要補充一下？沒關係。"],["簡署長慧娟：沒有。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒事？所以部長講的是對的，因為單親的關係嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：不是……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是？他講因為單親的關係，你說不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：有聽到這樣的一個訊息……"],["簡署長慧娟：不是那麼……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以請你補充嘛！我們要把事情講清楚比較重要，好不好？沒關係，這都是過程中的小事，把事情講清楚比較重要。"],["簡署長慧娟：據我所知就是兒盟考量跟他合作的一個關係，原來的周姓保母因為沒有合作過啦，所以會有一些的考量。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為那個就不是收養的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！我現在講個案問題，從個案看通案的狀況是這樣，根據衛福部112年的資料統計，大概有669位等待收養的孩童，其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家，即便有家庭願意收養，這中間的流程、還有一些成本、包含一些媒合的過程等等，在在都造成這個東西的阻力。我想請問一下，這669位等待收養的孩童，其中五百多位，接近八、九成沒有辦法成功出養的一個狀況，是大家不願意去領養還是有別的原因？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我是不是請……"],["簡署長慧娟：我想臺灣的收出養部分，國人會比較習慣想要收比較小的小孩，可是我們對於這些兒少的評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩，還有，國人在收養的時候，如果他有一些身體上或者是身心障礙的狀況，其實國人也不太願意去收養。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，你以我們剛剛那個數字來講，六百多人中有五百多人，很多是因年紀的關係、特殊境遇的關係，以至於無人收養，所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題，是嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：不是，不是那麼單純是不是無人要去收養，其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟收養人、收養家庭之間的一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：有沒有磨合？我理解政府作為把關的單位當然是要嚴謹，否則萬一收出養後在家裡面處得不愉快，他回過頭來要究責的話，大家的壓力可能會很大，這一點本席完全願意理解。但以這個案例來講，它證明了一件事，就是如果我們要把這個收出養的方式交給民間自行處理，這個孩童無人照顧的問題，我們把這個跟防賊一樣，大家非常小心、非常謹慎，可是今天這個兒虐案的事實證明，政府端在處理的時候都還是會發生這樣的悲劇。所以這個流程和成本，某些研究調查及一些報導顯示，它中間的流程複雜、太過嚴格，甚至要花成本，例如送件的費用、後續追蹤的費用，還要跑到在地去上課，在這樣的案件發生之後，這一些的門檻有沒有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，這一個部分的話，這些所謂收出養後來沒有媒合成功的案例的分類，我想我們可以再來做一個資料的分析。"],["牛委員煦庭：大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情，本席認為這樣的背後，通案的問題要一次解決，免得社會安全網裡面，這裡破一個洞，那裡破一個洞，永遠補個案補不完。但你從通案的角度、制度的角度來看能不能讓這個體系更完善，這是今天本席問這個題目非常重要的部分。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以針對收出養的部分，到底原因是什麼，是不是會後提供完整的資料來做報告，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心。","再來，回到這個個案來講，在等待出養的過程之中，就剛好是一個三不管的地方，以至於他被迫要以保母照顧的方式來處理而不是類似寄養家庭或是安置的邏輯來處理，其量能跟強度其實就是不夠的，所以才會造成今天這樣子的一個問題，這個部分會不會做檢討跟修正？"],["薛部長瑞元：會，目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是循著委託安置的方向來做，因為已經有這個制度在那裡。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我現在很好奇，就以這個個案來講，既然在前面是有類似準寄養的一個狀態，剛剛在答詢的過程中，其實你有說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外，意願也是很大的一個問題，像這種有意願的，為什麼不能成全這一段緣分？"],["薛部長瑞元：是啦，所以這部分的話，剛剛委員問到的前一個保母，他是有兩件事情，一個是他想繼續照顧，第二個是他想要收養，也許想要收養的部分，評估起來他……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在問題就是這樣，如果我們在收出養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了，那有意願提供的、有意願接手的，是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準或者是願意去成全此事？我們如果擔心孩子送不出去、沒有人收養，像這種在中間照顧的時候，也許照顧得很不錯、很投緣，那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養，這樣會不會比較能避免這樣子的狀況發生？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話……"],["簡署長慧娟：跟委員報告一下，其實如果他已經成為寄養這樣的狀態，其實我們是有一個程序，寄養可以轉收養，而且其程序是會比較簡便，然後是共同去做一個審查的。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！以這個案例來講，為什麼沒有走這樣子的一個流程？"],["簡署長慧娟：不是寄養，兒盟是把他交給保母去照顧。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我的意思是，不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼，如果他有這樣子的意願的時候，是不是應該多給他們一些機會？方向上是這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以剛剛跟委員報告，我們未來要改的就是委託安置，委託安置的意思就是由地方的社政主管機關介入來決定他要被送到寄養家庭或者是安置機構，又或者是他選擇的保母。"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得這部分還是要藉由這個個案來看通案，既然這六百多位孩子要等待出養，我們的目標理應是要盡量讓他找到幸福的家庭，對不對？這中間的過程能不能從這個案子裡面借鏡到可以改善的地方，政策的細節上要怎麼做修正？中間的空窗期怎麼來做彌補？我希望這一些能有一份專門的報告，好不好？不只給本席做參考，當然也給今天有關心這件事情的委員做參考。可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為今天有要求我們重做報告，然後我剛剛也答應一個禮拜之內會把……"],["牛委員煦庭：把這部分也納進報告的範圍，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","接下來我們請吳秉叡。吳秉叡、吳秉叡委員不在。","今天會議的詢答全部都已經結束，這一次會議的討論是非常有意義的，因為透過一整天的討論，不同的委員從不同的角度都給衛福部不同的建議，剛剛部長也承諾在一週後會把衛福部針對從這次個案到整個系統的檢討有一個非常詳細、完整的報告跟說明，我們希望衛福部在這個部分可以把所有委員的意見，還有好的未來改革方向都納入，我們的目的只有一個，就是讓我們的社會安全網可以更強韌，讓我們用集體的力量來防止下一個兒虐的悲劇再發生。","委員吳春城、顏寬恒、沈伯洋、林德福、陳冠廷、張雅琳、葉元之、羅智強所提書面質詢列入紀錄、刊登公報。"],["委員吳春城書面質詢：","邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","一、今（0318）衛生福利部提出之「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」，衛福部有提出要「強化社政及衛政網路合作」：地方社政主管機關對育有未滿3歲子女的脆弱家庭、接受政府委託安置及出養兒童、受監護兒童，應造冊予衛生主管機關，以利安排專責醫師關注兒童身心發展與受照顧狀況。","本席認為衛福部提供的文字過於空泛，請進一步提供書面資料說明「強化社政及衛政網路合作」的具體作為，書面資料應包含：至今已召開之中央部會與地方政府工作會議以及與基層醫療代表召開「幼兒專責醫師計畫」的溝通會議資料及記錄。"],["委員顏寬恒書面質詢：","「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」專案報告","一、衛生福利部報告中稱，行政院於107年核定強化社會安全網（下稱社安網）第一期計畫（107-109年），中央部會、地方政府及民間團體公私協力，3年投入近新臺幣（以下同）70億元。為強化社安網政策觸及面向與涵蓋範圍，立基於第一期計畫基礎建構，提出第二期計畫（110-114年），提升社會安全網各體系量能。第二期計畫預計5年將投入407億餘元。經費逐年增加，但類似社會安全問題仍層出不窮，相關部會必須檢討經費支出，是否能夠有效達成目標，將經費使用極大化。","二、檢討報告中，將收出養前安置服務、收出養評估機制、提供全日托之居家托育人員訪視頻率、居家托育服務人員之監督、對收出養媒合機構之監督與服務提供審查等業務都賦予地方政府，勢必加重地方政府經費負擔與實施人力負擔，在未來經費挹注上是否有完整的規劃？","三、近期發生兩起關於青少年及幼童的重大社會事件，首先是去年年底發生的新北市國三生遭同學砍殺、送醫急救後傷重不治案件；再來是台北市劉姓保母受兒福聯盟委託照顧新北1歲男童，涉嫌與胞妹凌虐男童致死，引發社會關注，兩起案件均面臨跨機關的業務，應檢討如何有效達成跨警政、社政、衛政等部會機關橫向聯繫，簡化通報機制、爭取每起個案中的黃金時間，避免憾事重演。"],["委員沈伯洋書面質詢：","依現行《兒童及少年權利與福利保障法》第15條之規定，從事收出養媒合服務，以經主管機關許可之財團法人、公私立兒童及少年安置、教養機構（以下統稱收出養媒合服務者）為限；收出養媒合服務者之資格條件、申請程序、許可之發給、撤銷與廢止許可、服務範圍、業務檢查與其管理等應遵行事項之辦法，由中央主管機關定之。","惟查，現行出養前的安置停留期間約為半年至一年半不等，且多是交由收出養媒合服務者執行，但有關出養前的照顧與評估機制，卻欠缺明確指引或規定，僅能仰賴收出養媒合服務者之自律。是故，衛生福利部於本月12、15日召開檢討會議後，提出通盤檢討如下：(1)出養必要性改由地方政府評估、(2)收出養前安置服務由地方政府提供協助、(3)研商全日托之居家托育人員訪視頻率並訂定相關指引、(4)強化居家托育人員教育訓練並完善督導考核機制、(5)建立收出養媒合服務者之訪視機制及標準化流程、(6)強化地方社政主管機關之監督職責、(7)結合幼兒專責醫師共同關懷脆弱家庭未滿3歲兒童之發展、(8)強化地方政府分工整合機制、(9)檢討重大兒虐事件處理機制。","衛生福利部通盤檢討所提出之九點改革方向實屬刻不容緩、須立即執行之政策，惟考量部分政策事涉地方政府職權，須仰賴地方政府配合方能執行，而為確保兒少最佳利益並落實兒少權益之保障，於貫徹九點改革政策前，需由衛生福利部先行訂定相關指引，以資地方政府暨收出養媒合服務者遵循。","為有效監督政策改革之落實，爰要求衛生福利部應於兩週內，就事涉地方政府職權之相關改革，提出研商會議召集暨政策施行的期程規劃，並就過渡時期如何強化收出養前的安置服務暨訪視頻率，以及其後的相關修法計畫，提出書面報告予本席。"],["委員林德福書面質詢：","社會安全網推動情形及策進作為","問題一","兒童是國家未來的主人翁，再過不久，4月4日兒童節即將到來，對於「受虐兒童」無法平安長大，本席深感不捨。","根據衛福部統計資料2019~2022年「虐待兒童」加害者共有4萬4,097位，其中身分是「保母」者共有97位，占0.2%的比率。","請「衛福部」與「社家署」說明一下，「虐待兒童加害者」哪一種類別最多？","今天我們齊聚一堂檢討「社會安全網」，不要搞錯對象，不要政黨惡鬥，「保母」是我們「社會安全網」重要的夥伴，有少數虐待兒童的保母，但有更多認真照顧兒童的保母，請問「衛福部」的看法為何？","問題二","本席也感謝第一線「社工師」勞心勞力，希望「社工師」們堅守岡位。社工不是「做功德」的，「補強社會安全網」不能分中央地方，讓社工朋友的工作環境得到改善，國家才能保護好每一個孩子。","本席希望未來「衛福部」討論行政院版修法時，要邀請社工、保母團體參與，聽聽基層第一線人員的心聲，讓政策的推動能更加完善，避免在冷氣房裡下決策，產生法令執行上的落差。","問題三","根據衛福部統計資料2019~2022年「0~11歲兒童主要死亡原因」，加害（他殺）累計共71名兒童死亡，本席知道「衛福部」有進行「兒童死亡原因回溯分析報告」，希望透過檢討來減少兒童死亡案例。","根據歷年「兒童死因分析」檢討，請問「衛福部」，此次幼童遭保母虐待致死，是「系統性問題」？還是「單一個案問題」？","「中央」會再給「地方政府」多少預算與人力去執行「加強訪視」與「幼兒專責醫師」等相關計畫？407億的「社會安全網2.0」夠支應嗎？「衛福部」是否會向「行政院」爭取超徵稅收挹注？","本席建議來自脆弱家庭、接受政府安置、出養12歲以下兒童，都該納入「專責醫師」關懷照顧。請問衛福部的看法為何？","問題四","本席肯定「兒福聯盟」過去在「兒少權益保護」上的努力，過去不管藍綠，不論是蔡英文總統、陳建仁院長擔任副總統時，賴清德副總統，都有參與過「兒福聯盟」的活動，也給予「兒福聯盟」一定的肯定。","根據「111年度收出養媒合服務者業務檢查結果」，「衛福部」認為「兒福聯盟」符合規定，請問衛福部，112年「業務檢查結果」還會認為「兒福聯盟」符合規定嗎？是否會受此事件影響？","「政務委員林萬億」說「兒童福利聯盟」沒有人力不足的問題，本席希望「衛福部」站在輔導的立場上，加強「兒福聯盟」外部督導體系，避免類似悲劇再次發生，請問「衛福部」的看法為何？"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","議程：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告","一、一歲10個月男童遭虐致死，社工人力是否充足，訪視機制有無精進之處？","去年十二月，一名一歲男童遭保母虐待致死，我們很遺憾發生這樣的事情，也認為政府機關應當檢討整個環節，政府應當照顧孩童、政府應當保護孩童。","我們回顧整個案發經過，去年十二月二十四日男童因呼吸困難送醫後死亡，並發現有受虐跡象，然而自九月兒福聯盟送出養後，應當每月社工訪視，十二月為何沒有？若發現家訪遭推託，應當有所警戒，並積極聯繫準備訪視。而台北市社會局社工，於出養後也在九月進行第一次訪視，第二次訪視時間為何？十二月是否應當訪視？","部長，您認為社福單位的社工人力，是否充足？我們先不討論個案，若依一般案件，社會局的社工，在每一位受訪孩童家庭，每次訪視所花費的時間是多少？這樣的時間，夠不夠觀察整個照顧的關係？","我們知道訪查員並非僅有單一個案需要訪視，因此，社工人力的缺乏，應當也是一個值得探討的問題，若因人力不足，無法讓每位應受訪視者，受到完整的關注，未來這樣的疏忽還是會持續發生。","訪視的頻率、訪視的次數，若未來人力能加強，是否就有更多的量能作訪視，社工才能有更多的時間在每一位孩童身上，也才有可能在更多的訪視時間上發現問題，才能即時發現、即時預防。","此外，社工訪視制度是否有機會採取不預告訪視？在這個案例中，我們知道保母曾經婉拒兒福聯盟的社工訪視，這也讓預告訪視出現了一些疑問，社工是否可以看到最真實的一面，照顧者是否可以藉由事先預告，掩蓋、或是避免一些不想被社工注意的細節，因此，除了增加頻率外，若能透過隨機訪視的制度來瞭解真實的情形，也能從中發現一些細節，以預防類似的憾事發生。","因此，我們想詢問部長，現行的訪視機制，有無精進的部分？有沒有可能在一般訪視之外，也加入隨機訪視？","二、社工上銬爭議，警方衡量戒具使用，應評估比例原則，是否有其必要？","三月十二日，兒福聯盟社工於完成警詢筆錄後，警方將其上銬解送，然而現場有諸多記者等候，因此，社工上銬畫面也在第一時間被播出。","依刑事訴訟法第八十九條之一，執行拘提、逮捕或解送，得使用戒具，但不得逾必要之程度，且應注意被告或犯罪嫌疑人之身體及名譽，避免公然暴露其戒具，若認已無繼續使用之必要時，應即解除。","因此，在社工上銬爭議上，既然我們已經知道現場有記者等候，警方應當避免公然暴露其戒具，這也是刑事訴訟法上所規定的，也應注意被告或嫌疑人身體及名譽之維護，顯然警方並沒有做到，其次，是比例原則的問題，我們知道戒具的使用，不得作為懲罰的方式，在無脫逃、自傷、自殘等情形，審酌案件可衡量戒具使用。","在這個案件上，我們也看到台北市警察局也有表示上銬未符合比例原則，若警方認為無其必要性，那當初就應該避免使用。","署長，我們會這樣說，是希望未來任何的重大案件，都可以注意到這塊，因為，任何案件的嫌疑人都是無罪推定的，若無脫逃、自傷、自殘、甚至攻擊他的的情況下，都應考慮是否有其上銬必要，此外，即使依法上銬，也應盡量避免公然暴露，這是我們刑事訴訟法所規定的，我們應當遵守法規規範。","一旦這樣的事件發生，可能會模糊焦點、可能會出現不必要的爭議，這也是當初刑事訴訟法的立意，我們希望警政署可以從這次的案件中，檢討未來戒具的使用，刑事訴訟法及執行拘提逮捕解送使用戒具實施辦法皆有嚴謹的相關規定，應當避免這類的爭議出現。"],["委員張雅琳書面質詢：","一、針對居家托育人員訪視，現行由各地方政府自行規定是否約訪，為強化目前的居家托育人員管理強度，是否將該項規範正式納入法規規範，於目前研擬兒童托育法草案規範不約訪之條文，請衛福部研擬相關條文內容。","二、針對居家托育人員未來將依循「直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則」，其中針接受安置兒居家托育人員其托育費用將調整托育費用之金額，請衛福部邀請各縣市政府共商較為妥適的托育費用，並應考量與寄養家庭安置費用有所區隔。"],["委員葉元之書面質詢：","有鑑於本月13日衛福部暫停兒福聯盟收出養業務，但該男童係去年12月24日離世，請衛福部於一周內回覆，從去年12月24日至今針對本案之具體作為。"],["委員羅智強書面質詢：","案由：本院委員羅智強，有鑑近期發生社會矚目之嚴重虐兒致死案件，衛福部所提「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」顯有不足，未有明確訂定未來精進及防範機制，難強化現行兒童收托照顧制度未盡之處，特向衛福部提出質詢。","說明：","在本次報告中提到「地方政府分工非中央政府權責，地方政府應明確跨科（室）案件分工合作機制；如涉有跨縣（市）爭議者，由中央協助釐清。」，然本案委託之兒聯盟是由中央單位所委託，難免會讓民眾感到中央單位，有刻意指地方政府分工不明確，撇清責任的觀感，應當針對中央與地方權責，邀集地方政府進行研議。","在衛福部保護服務司的統計中，從106年到112年上半年度的「兒童及少年保護─遭父母、照顧者等家庭成員施虐死亡之人數及原因」數據有歷年有14-29名不等的孩子，包含嚴重受虐死亡、嚴重疏忽死亡、殺子後自殺的狀況而離開人世。","但我們所見的統計僅有「家內受虐致死」，本次個案狀況卻是屬於家外，過去是否有類似統計？請在兩週內提供，近十年之家外受虐與受虐致死統計數量。","此外，在本次個案中，台北市政府於2023年12月25日接獲通報後，在12月25日、27日就曾二度向衛福部反應要啟動「重大兒虐檢討會議」，但衛福部先說不是家內施虐所以不開案，後來又說跨科室業務需要研議，再無回復。現行對於「重大兒虐檢討會議」的定義跟要求是什麼？後續檢討之機制為何，請一併彙整後，送本辦公室。","從衛福部所整理之時間表可發現，北市社會局在整個期間，沒有收到兒福聯盟的任何異常通報，當然北市社會局依規要一年訪視四次，在9月26日完成訪視後，接著的下一次是12月初。但在過程中，衛福部的是否有接收到來自兒福的通報，無論是9月26日第一次看到看到案童頭上瘀青，第二次安靜，較無精神，第三次有異常掉牙的情況。衛福部是否有接收到相關通報？","民進黨發言人指，男童死前理應前往查訪4次的台北市社會局只去了1次。但依居家式托育服務提供者登記及管理辦法第18條規定：首次訪視，應於收托後1個月內進行；提供全日、夜間托育服務者，「每年訪視4次」。","本案孩童9月始托，北市居服中心9月26日就前往訪視，並依中央政府各項指引評估，當次並無異狀；後續應由中央政府委託的兒福聯盟社工定期1個月訪視1次，了解兒童照顧狀況。前述所指，一年訪視4次，如果兒童在9月收托，也是要在12月之前完成四次訪視嗎？","【若收托家庭染疫，衛福部指導為何？】","外界有傳言，台北市居托中心原先預計12月中下旬原預計無預警訪視，但12月21日接獲保母主動通知同住家人確診訊息，所以延期，現在衛福部對於保母打給訪視員說有人確診，請問訪視員應該去，還是不應該去？","訪視員所訪視的對象，往往都是免疫力高敏感的群體，如果已經有接獲通知了，還要訪視員前往，本來就因為人力吃緊的訪視員因此病倒，反而造成整個體系的崩壞；甚而還有可能因為因為染疫，而造成連帶其他被訪視的個案受感染。衛服部現行提供給訪視員參考之指導原則為何？","【要求建立共訪機制】","衛福部所提送報告中，提及未來會強化「收出養媒合機構訪視機制：強化媒合機構之社工之專業知能及對兒童虐待之敏感度與辨識能力，並提升訪視頻率、建立訪視機制及標準化流程」，確實有助於本次系統性的缺失修復。","然而社工長期低薪過勞，又要承受沉重的心理壓力。近年來社工系學生實際投入社工領域工作的約只有25%。資深社工不斷離職、新進社工不願投入。各地方政府保護性社工現有人力只有合理員額5成，工作量無疑倍增。","有關「檢討重大兒虐事件處理機制：各級政府應明確分工，屬重大兒虐案件之主管權責應以負責保護服務體系之主管單位為主責」，在這邊提到的「保護服務體系之主管單位為主責」是指誰？是中央還是地方，這點還是要講清楚，不然又變成未來權責不清。","本次個案是新北市出養的孩子，由中央委託兒福聯盟，兒福聯盟找到保姆，保姆是在臺北市執業。希望能透過共訪機制，讓更多人能夠注意到問題，就可以避免這樣的事情發生。所以包括委託方、受託方、保姆轄管方，有共訪機制的建立，希望中央地方一起來做。","在共訪機制建立前，已要求社會局即刻提高訪視頻率，對於出養孩子在中繼受保姆托育，提高至每月訪視一次；對於全日托育，就是一整天都在保姆家的全日托育的情形，提升至每年至少6次。另外大家很關心保姆的領證、考核、評鑑以及家長推薦這樣的機制，也請衛福部跟地方社會局即刻來規劃。","另，未來針對家庭狀況較特殊、無依靠或家庭失能，沒有辦法即刻回到原生家庭等的孩子，除了讓保母成為出收養之前的中繼外，希望寄養家庭也能成為選項。臺北市已經修法提高對於寄養家庭的獎勵金，希望透過增加量能，讓更多人加入這個行列，發揮相關的功能。","請衛生福利部就上述所提事項，於兩周內將書面答覆送交本辦公室，並確實達成所提精進規劃，避免再有孩子淪為制度下的無辜犧牲者。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","謝謝今天出席的官員、關心的媒體朋友、所有的議事人員。我們今天開會時間比較長，那是為了讓我們的孩子得到更好的保護。","本次會議到此結束。現在散會。","散會（16時56分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"150050","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150050","tool":"pyannote","id":"150050-pyannote"},"job_id":"gzqGNr3RDVxmF9Zx","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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\"end\": 88.827, \"text\": \"這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 62.789, \"end\": 63.069, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 63.069, \"end\": 63.71, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 63.71, \"end\": 64.01, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 64.01, \"end\": 64.23, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"姆\", \"start\": 64.23, \"end\": 64.43, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 64.43, \"end\": 64.591, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 64.591, \"end\": 64.971, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 64.971, \"end\": 66.192, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"養\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 66.192, \"end\": 66.332, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 66.332, \"end\": 67.052, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 67.052, 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\"end\": 542.976, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 542.976, \"end\": 542.996, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,372 --> 00:00:09,959\n好謝謝主席這個衛福部長有請好我們請部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,045 --> 00:00:39,068\n委員好部長辛苦了這個我們就這客套話就不說了這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受也非常的難過但我本席認為這個除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的因此在今天的質詢裡面提出說剛問題來跟部長做一下探討\n\n3\n00:00:40,589 --> 00:00:59,304\n從這個個案來看,其實可以看到社會安全網的漏洞,第二個是社工的人力荒,第三個是保姆證照的審核跟收出養的制度。那今天因為時間有限的關係,我把重點放在這個收出養的制度的部分,希望部長可以好好回答,希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。\n\n4\n00:01:02,789 --> 00:01:28,827\n這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除\n\n5\n00:01:30,628 --> 00:01:55,283\n但是這重點可能如果說原來那個保姆要做收養人的話是一件事情但是如果原來那個保姆想要繼續照顧的話就是說收養前的照顧的話那就另外一件事情我剛剛看你後面要來支援的是好像有點不同的意見你要不要補充一下沒關係沒有沒事所以部長講的是對的因為單親的關係嗎\n\n6\n00:01:57,222 --> 00:02:02,284\n據我所知就是額蒙考量他跟他的合作的一個關係那因為那個原來的保姆周姓保姆他跟他的\n\n7\n00:02:25,244 --> 00:02:49,679\n因為沒有合作過啦所以會有一些的考量不過那個就不是收養的問題對啊我現在講個案問題從個案看通案的狀況是這樣啦就根據衛福部112年的資料統計大概有669位等待收養的孩童其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家啦即便有家庭願意收養\n\n8\n00:02:50,560 --> 00:03:09,251\n他這中間這些流程還有一些成本包含一些媒合課程等等都在在造成這個東西的阻力那我想請問一下這669位等待受養的孩童其中500多位接近是八九成沒有辦法成功出養的狀況是大家不願意去領養還是有別的原因沒關係\n\n9\n00:03:11,991 --> 00:03:39,503\n我想臺灣的收出養的這個習慣國人的一些他們比較習慣去想要收比較小的小孩可是我們對於這些兒少的有評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩那還有一些可能國人在收養的時候也會如果他有一些身體上面或者是\n\n10\n00:03:40,424 --> 00:03:55,444\n身心障礙的狀況其實國人也不太願意去收養沒有沒有你以我們剛剛那個數字嘛600多人有500多人這500多人很多你是年紀的關係然後的特殊境遇的關係所以以至於無人收養嗎所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題是嗎\n\n11\n00:03:56,985 --> 00:04:25,464\n不是那麼單純說是不是無人要去收養其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟這個收養家庭之間的一個關係有沒有磨合嘛我理解說政府作為把關的單位啦當然要嚴謹嘛要不然萬一要收出養後在家裡面處的不愉快大家回頭過來究責大家可能壓力會很大這本席完全願意理解但以這個案例來講它證明了一件事啊就是說我們如果\n\n12\n00:04:26,765 --> 00:04:29,889\n政府端在處理的時候他都還是會發生這樣的悲劇\n\n13\n00:04:45,587 --> 00:05:07,395\n所以說流程和成本某一方面有做研究調查有一些報導顯示中間的流程複雜太過嚴格甚至要花成本送件的費用後續的追蹤的費用還有上課還要跑到在地去上課這一些的門檻有沒有基於這樣的案件發生之後有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性\n\n14\n00:05:08,955 --> 00:05:33,306\n報告委員這一個部分的話這些所謂的收出養後來沒有完沒有成功的這個案例的分類我想我們可以再來做一個對我現在就是大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情本期認為這樣的背後通案的問題要一次解決免得社會安全網這裡破一個洞那裡破一個洞那永遠個案補不完\n\n15\n00:05:34,406 --> 00:05:53,824\n但是你從通案的角度、制度的角度看能不能讓這個體系更完善這是今天問這個題目非常重要的所以針對收出羊的部分到底原因是什麼是不是會後提供一個完整的資料來做報告好不好這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心好不好那再來就是說以回到這個個案來講在等待出羊的過程之中就剛好是一個\n\n16\n00:05:54,445 --> 00:05:54,846\n這部分會不會做檢討跟修正?\n\n17\n00:06:11,747 --> 00:06:38,976\n目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是說我們就循著委託安置的方向來做因為已經有這個制度在那裡我現在很好奇以這個個案來講他既然都在前面是有類似準計養的一個狀態既然你都講剛剛在答詢的過程中其實你有講說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外意願也是很大的一個問題那這種有意願的為什麼不能成全這段緣分\n\n18\n00:06:40,387 --> 00:06:55,737\n所以這部分的話當然剛剛委員問到前一個保姆他是有兩件事情一個是說他想繼續照顧第二個是他想要收養那也許想要收養的部分的話評估起來他\n\n19\n00:06:57,178 --> 00:07:22,409\n現在問題就是這樣嘛,如果我們在收養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了那有意願提供的,有意願接手的是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準,或者是願意去承認我們如果擔心孩子送不出去,沒有人收養那是不是有這種中間照顧的時候,也許很照顧得不錯,很投緣那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養呢?這樣會不會比較避免這樣子的狀況發生呢?\n\n20\n00:07:24,703 --> 00:07:45,864\n我跟委員報告一下其實如果說他已經是成為寄養這樣的一個狀態那其實我們是有一個程序寄養可以轉收養而且他的程序是會比較簡便然後是共同去做一個審查的\n\n21\n00:07:47,004 --> 00:08:04,228\n以這個案例來講他為什麼沒有走這樣子一個流程他不是寄養他是保姆因為現在兒盟是交給保姆去照顧我的意思是說不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼如果他有這樣子的意願的時候\n\n22\n00:08:04,548 --> 00:08:28,019\n是不是應該多給他們一些機會嗎?方向上是這樣嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們未來要改的就是委託安置委託安置的意思就是說由地方的這個社政主管機關介入來決定說他要送到寄養家庭或者是說安置機構或者是說他選擇的保姆\n\n23\n00:08:28,834 --> 00:08:30,915\n今天就要求我們重做報告我剛剛也答應說一個禮拜四的\n\n24\n00:08:59,092 --> 00:09:02,996\n好我們把這部分也納進報告的範圍好不好好辛苦了謝謝好我們謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7372\t9959\t好 謝謝主席 這個衛福部長有請好 我們請部長\n19045\t39068\t委員好部長辛苦了這個我們就這客套話就不說了這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受也非常的難過但我本席認為這個除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的因此在今天的質詢裡面提出說剛問題來跟部長做一下探討\n40589\t59304\t從這個個案來看,其實可以看到社會安全網的漏洞,第二個是社工的人力荒,第三個是保姆證照的審核跟收出養的制度。那今天因為時間有限的關係,我把重點放在這個收出養的制度的部分,希望部長可以好好回答,希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。\n62789\t88827\t這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除\n90628\t115283\t但是這重點可能如果說原來那個保姆要做收養人的話是一件事情但是如果原來那個保姆想要繼續照顧的話就是說收養前的照顧的話那就另外一件事情我剛剛看你後面要來支援的是好像有點不同的意見你要不要補充一下沒關係沒有沒事所以部長講的是對的因為單親的關係嗎\n117222\t122284\t據我所知就是額蒙考量他跟他的合作的一個關係那因為那個原來的保姆周姓保姆他跟他的\n145244\t169679\t因為沒有合作過啦所以會有一些的考量不過那個就不是收養的問題對啊我現在講個案問題從個案看通案的狀況是這樣啦就根據衛福部112年的資料統計大概有669位等待收養的孩童其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家啦即便有家庭願意收養\n170560\t189251\t他這中間這些流程還有一些成本包含一些媒合課程等等都在在造成這個東西的阻力那我想請問一下這669位等待受養的孩童其中500多位接近是八九成沒有辦法成功出養的狀況是大家不願意去領養還是有別的原因沒關係\n191991\t219503\t我想臺灣的收出養的這個習慣國人的一些他們比較習慣去想要收比較小的小孩可是我們對於這些兒少的有評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩那還有一些可能國人在收養的時候也會如果他有一些身體上面或者是\n220424\t235444\t身心障礙的狀況其實國人也不太願意去收養沒有沒有你以我們剛剛那個數字嘛600多人有500多人這500多人很多你是年紀的關係然後的特殊境遇的關係所以以至於無人收養嗎所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題是嗎\n236985\t265464\t不是那麼單純說是不是無人要去收養其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟這個收養家庭之間的一個關係有沒有磨合嘛我理解說政府作為把關的單位啦當然要嚴謹嘛要不然萬一要收出養後在家裡面處的不愉快大家回頭過來究責大家可能壓力會很大這本席完全願意理解但以這個案例來講它證明了一件事啊就是說我們如果\n266765\t269889\t政府端在處理的時候他都還是會發生這樣的悲劇\n285587\t307395\t所以說 流程和成本 某一方面有做研究調查 有一些報導顯示中間的流程複雜 太過嚴格甚至要花成本 送件的費用 後續的追蹤的費用 還有上課還要跑到在地去上課 這一些的門檻有沒有基於這樣的案件發生之後 有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性\n308955\t333306\t報告委員這一個部分的話這些所謂的收出養後來沒有完沒有成功的這個案例的分類我想我們可以再來做一個對我現在就是大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情本期認為這樣的背後通案的問題要一次解決免得社會安全網這裡破一個洞那裡破一個洞那永遠個案補不完\n334406\t353824\t但是你從通案的角度、制度的角度看能不能讓這個體系更完善這是今天問這個題目非常重要的所以針對收出羊的部分到底原因是什麼是不是會後提供一個完整的資料來做報告好不好這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心好不好那再來就是說以回到這個個案來講在等待出羊的過程之中就剛好是一個\n354445\t354846\t這部分會不會做檢討跟修正?\n371747\t398976\t目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是說我們就循著委託安置的方向來做因為已經有這個制度在那裡我現在很好奇以這個個案來講他既然都在前面是有類似準計養的一個狀態既然你都講剛剛在答詢的過程中其實你有講說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外意願也是很大的一個問題那這種有意願的為什麼不能成全這段緣分\n400387\t415737\t所以這部分的話當然剛剛委員問到前一個保姆他是有兩件事情一個是說他想繼續照顧第二個是他想要收養那也許想要收養的部分的話評估起來他\n417178\t442409\t現在問題就是這樣嘛,如果我們在收養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了那有意願提供的,有意願接手的是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準,或者是願意去承認我們如果擔心孩子送不出去,沒有人收養那是不是有這種中間照顧的時候,也許很照顧得不錯,很投緣那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養呢?這樣會不會比較避免這樣子的狀況發生呢?\n444703\t465864\t我跟委員報告一下其實如果說他已經是成為寄養這樣的一個狀態那其實我們是有一個程序寄養可以轉收養而且他的程序是會比較簡便然後是共同去做一個審查的\n467004\t484228\t以這個案例來講他為什麼沒有走這樣子一個流程他不是寄養他是保姆因為現在兒盟是交給保姆去照顧我的意思是說不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼如果他有這樣子的意願的時候\n484548\t508019\t是不是應該多給他們一些機會嗎?方向上是這樣嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們未來要改的就是委託安置委託安置的意思就是說由地方的這個社政主管機關介入來決定說他要送到寄養家庭或者是說安置機構或者是說他選擇的保姆\n508834\t510915\t今天就要求我們重做報告我剛剛也答應說一個禮拜四的\n539092\t542996\t好我們把這部分也納進報告的範圍好不好好辛苦了謝謝好我們謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 這個衛福部長有請好 我們請部長\n委員好部長辛苦了這個我們就這客套話就不說了這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受也非常的難過但我本席認為這個除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的因此在今天的質詢裡面提出說剛問題來跟部長做一下探討\n從這個個案來看,其實可以看到社會安全網的漏洞,第二個是社工的人力荒,第三個是保姆證照的審核跟收出養的制度。那今天因為時間有限的關係,我把重點放在這個收出養的制度的部分,希望部長可以好好回答,希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。\n這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除\n但是這重點可能如果說原來那個保姆要做收養人的話是一件事情但是如果原來那個保姆想要繼續照顧的話就是說收養前的照顧的話那就另外一件事情我剛剛看你後面要來支援的是好像有點不同的意見你要不要補充一下沒關係沒有沒事所以部長講的是對的因為單親的關係嗎\n據我所知就是額蒙考量他跟他的合作的一個關係那因為那個原來的保姆周姓保姆他跟他的\n因為沒有合作過啦所以會有一些的考量不過那個就不是收養的問題對啊我現在講個案問題從個案看通案的狀況是這樣啦就根據衛福部112年的資料統計大概有669位等待收養的孩童其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家啦即便有家庭願意收養\n他這中間這些流程還有一些成本包含一些媒合課程等等都在在造成這個東西的阻力那我想請問一下這669位等待受養的孩童其中500多位接近是八九成沒有辦法成功出養的狀況是大家不願意去領養還是有別的原因沒關係\n我想臺灣的收出養的這個習慣國人的一些他們比較習慣去想要收比較小的小孩可是我們對於這些兒少的有評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩那還有一些可能國人在收養的時候也會如果他有一些身體上面或者是\n身心障礙的狀況其實國人也不太願意去收養沒有沒有你以我們剛剛那個數字嘛600多人有500多人這500多人很多你是年紀的關係然後的特殊境遇的關係所以以至於無人收養嗎所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題是嗎\n不是那麼單純說是不是無人要去收養其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟這個收養家庭之間的一個關係有沒有磨合嘛我理解說政府作為把關的單位啦當然要嚴謹嘛要不然萬一要收出養後在家裡面處的不愉快大家回頭過來究責大家可能壓力會很大這本席完全願意理解但以這個案例來講它證明了一件事啊就是說我們如果\n政府端在處理的時候他都還是會發生這樣的悲劇\n所以說 流程和成本 某一方面有做研究調查 有一些報導顯示中間的流程複雜 太過嚴格甚至要花成本 送件的費用 後續的追蹤的費用 還有上課還要跑到在地去上課 這一些的門檻有沒有基於這樣的案件發生之後 有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性\n報告委員這一個部分的話這些所謂的收出養後來沒有完沒有成功的這個案例的分類我想我們可以再來做一個對我現在就是大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情本期認為這樣的背後通案的問題要一次解決免得社會安全網這裡破一個洞那裡破一個洞那永遠個案補不完\n但是你從通案的角度、制度的角度看能不能讓這個體系更完善這是今天問這個題目非常重要的所以針對收出羊的部分到底原因是什麼是不是會後提供一個完整的資料來做報告好不好這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心好不好那再來就是說以回到這個個案來講在等待出羊的過程之中就剛好是一個\n這部分會不會做檢討跟修正?\n目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是說我們就循著委託安置的方向來做因為已經有這個制度在那裡我現在很好奇以這個個案來講他既然都在前面是有類似準計養的一個狀態既然你都講剛剛在答詢的過程中其實你有講說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外意願也是很大的一個問題那這種有意願的為什麼不能成全這段緣分\n所以這部分的話當然剛剛委員問到前一個保姆他是有兩件事情一個是說他想繼續照顧第二個是他想要收養那也許想要收養的部分的話評估起來他\n現在問題就是這樣嘛,如果我們在收養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了那有意願提供的,有意願接手的是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準,或者是願意去承認我們如果擔心孩子送不出去,沒有人收養那是不是有這種中間照顧的時候,也許很照顧得不錯,很投緣那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養呢?這樣會不會比較避免這樣子的狀況發生呢?\n我跟委員報告一下其實如果說他已經是成為寄養這樣的一個狀態那其實我們是有一個程序寄養可以轉收養而且他的程序是會比較簡便然後是共同去做一個審查的\n以這個案例來講他為什麼沒有走這樣子一個流程他不是寄養他是保姆因為現在兒盟是交給保姆去照顧我的意思是說不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼如果他有這樣子的意願的時候\n是不是應該多給他們一些機會嗎?方向上是這樣嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們未來要改的就是委託安置委託安置的意思就是說由地方的這個社政主管機關介入來決定說他要送到寄養家庭或者是說安置機構或者是說他選擇的保姆\n今天就要求我們重做報告我剛剛也答應說一個禮拜四的\n好我們把這部分也納進報告的範圍好不好好辛苦了謝謝好我們謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.372 --> 00:09.959\n好謝謝主席這個衛福部長有請好我們請部長\n\n00:19.045 --> 00:39.068\n委員好部長辛苦了這個我們就這客套話就不說了這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受也非常的難過但我本席認為這個除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的因此在今天的質詢裡面提出說剛問題來跟部長做一下探討\n\n00:40.589 --> 00:59.304\n從這個個案來看,其實可以看到社會安全網的漏洞,第二個是社工的人力荒,第三個是保姆證照的審核跟收出養的制度。那今天因為時間有限的關係,我把重點放在這個收出養的制度的部分,希望部長可以好好回答,希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。\n\n01:02.789 --> 01:28.827\n這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除\n\n01:30.628 --> 01:55.283\n但是這重點可能如果說原來那個保姆要做收養人的話是一件事情但是如果原來那個保姆想要繼續照顧的話就是說收養前的照顧的話那就另外一件事情我剛剛看你後面要來支援的是好像有點不同的意見你要不要補充一下沒關係沒有沒事所以部長講的是對的因為單親的關係嗎\n\n01:57.222 --> 02:02.284\n據我所知就是額蒙考量他跟他的合作的一個關係那因為那個原來的保姆周姓保姆他跟他的\n\n02:25.244 --> 02:49.679\n因為沒有合作過啦所以會有一些的考量不過那個就不是收養的問題對啊我現在講個案問題從個案看通案的狀況是這樣啦就根據衛福部112年的資料統計大概有669位等待收養的孩童其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家啦即便有家庭願意收養\n\n02:50.560 --> 03:09.251\n他這中間這些流程還有一些成本包含一些媒合課程等等都在在造成這個東西的阻力那我想請問一下這669位等待受養的孩童其中500多位接近是八九成沒有辦法成功出養的狀況是大家不願意去領養還是有別的原因沒關係\n\n03:11.991 --> 03:39.503\n我想臺灣的收出養的這個習慣國人的一些他們比較習慣去想要收比較小的小孩可是我們對於這些兒少的有評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩那還有一些可能國人在收養的時候也會如果他有一些身體上面或者是\n\n03:40.424 --> 03:55.444\n身心障礙的狀況其實國人也不太願意去收養沒有沒有你以我們剛剛那個數字嘛600多人有500多人這500多人很多你是年紀的關係然後的特殊境遇的關係所以以至於無人收養嗎所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題是嗎\n\n03:56.985 --> 04:25.464\n不是那麼單純說是不是無人要去收養其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟這個收養家庭之間的一個關係有沒有磨合嘛我理解說政府作為把關的單位啦當然要嚴謹嘛要不然萬一要收出養後在家裡面處的不愉快大家回頭過來究責大家可能壓力會很大這本席完全願意理解但以這個案例來講它證明了一件事啊就是說我們如果\n\n04:26.765 --> 04:29.889\n政府端在處理的時候他都還是會發生這樣的悲劇\n\n04:45.587 --> 05:07.395\n所以說流程和成本某一方面有做研究調查有一些報導顯示中間的流程複雜太過嚴格甚至要花成本送件的費用後續的追蹤的費用還有上課還要跑到在地去上課這一些的門檻有沒有基於這樣的案件發生之後有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性\n\n05:08.955 --> 05:33.306\n報告委員這一個部分的話這些所謂的收出養後來沒有完沒有成功的這個案例的分類我想我們可以再來做一個對我現在就是大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情本期認為這樣的背後通案的問題要一次解決免得社會安全網這裡破一個洞那裡破一個洞那永遠個案補不完\n\n05:34.406 --> 05:53.824\n但是你從通案的角度、制度的角度看能不能讓這個體系更完善這是今天問這個題目非常重要的所以針對收出羊的部分到底原因是什麼是不是會後提供一個完整的資料來做報告好不好這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心好不好那再來就是說以回到這個個案來講在等待出羊的過程之中就剛好是一個\n\n05:54.445 --> 05:54.846\n這部分會不會做檢討跟修正?\n\n06:11.747 --> 06:38.976\n目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是說我們就循著委託安置的方向來做因為已經有這個制度在那裡我現在很好奇以這個個案來講他既然都在前面是有類似準計養的一個狀態既然你都講剛剛在答詢的過程中其實你有講說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外意願也是很大的一個問題那這種有意願的為什麼不能成全這段緣分\n\n06:40.387 --> 06:55.737\n所以這部分的話當然剛剛委員問到前一個保姆他是有兩件事情一個是說他想繼續照顧第二個是他想要收養那也許想要收養的部分的話評估起來他\n\n06:57.178 --> 07:22.409\n現在問題就是這樣嘛,如果我們在收養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了那有意願提供的,有意願接手的是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準,或者是願意去承認我們如果擔心孩子送不出去,沒有人收養那是不是有這種中間照顧的時候,也許很照顧得不錯,很投緣那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養呢?這樣會不會比較避免這樣子的狀況發生呢?\n\n07:24.703 --> 07:45.864\n我跟委員報告一下其實如果說他已經是成為寄養這樣的一個狀態那其實我們是有一個程序寄養可以轉收養而且他的程序是會比較簡便然後是共同去做一個審查的\n\n07:47.004 --> 08:04.228\n以這個案例來講他為什麼沒有走這樣子一個流程他不是寄養他是保姆因為現在兒盟是交給保姆去照顧我的意思是說不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼如果他有這樣子的意願的時候\n\n08:04.548 --> 08:28.019\n是不是應該多給他們一些機會嗎?方向上是這樣嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們未來要改的就是委託安置委託安置的意思就是說由地方的這個社政主管機關介入來決定說他要送到寄養家庭或者是說安置機構或者是說他選擇的保姆\n\n08:28.834 --> 08:30.915\n今天就要求我們重做報告我剛剛也答應說一個禮拜四的\n\n08:59.092 --> 09:02.996\n好我們把這部分也納進報告的範圍好不好好辛苦了謝謝好我們謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.372,"end":9.959,"text":"好 謝謝主席 這個衛福部長有請好 我們請部長"},{"start":19.045,"end":39.068,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了這個我們就這客套話就不說了這個虐童案讓大家都感同身受也非常的難過但我本席認為這個除了妥善的解決這個個案的問題之外從背後看到通案的一些結構問題還是很重要的因此在今天的質詢裡面提出說剛問題來跟部長做一下探討"},{"start":40.589,"end":59.304,"text":"從這個個案來看,其實可以看到社會安全網的漏洞,第二個是社工的人力荒,第三個是保姆證照的審核跟收出養的制度。那今天因為時間有限的關係,我把重點放在這個收出養的制度的部分,希望部長可以好好回答,希望這個過程中可以做些有建設性的探討。"},{"start":62.789,"end":88.827,"text":"這個個案的前保姆有意願收養但是被制度排除以外原因大概是什麼是不是請部長先說明一下這個其實當初被排除的原因何在的話我並沒有那麼清楚不過聽說有一個是說他是單親但是單親如果以我們的這個收養人來講的話並不一定就是作為排除"},{"start":90.628,"end":115.283,"text":"但是這重點可能如果說原來那個保姆要做收養人的話是一件事情但是如果原來那個保姆想要繼續照顧的話就是說收養前的照顧的話那就另外一件事情我剛剛看你後面要來支援的是好像有點不同的意見你要不要補充一下沒關係沒有沒事所以部長講的是對的因為單親的關係嗎"},{"start":117.222,"end":122.284,"text":"據我所知就是額蒙考量他跟他的合作的一個關係那因為那個原來的保姆周姓保姆他跟他的"},{"start":145.244,"end":169.679,"text":"因為沒有合作過啦所以會有一些的考量不過那個就不是收養的問題對啊我現在講個案問題從個案看通案的狀況是這樣啦就根據衛福部112年的資料統計大概有669位等待收養的孩童其中有533位沒有辦法順利的找到家啦即便有家庭願意收養"},{"start":170.56,"end":189.251,"text":"他這中間這些流程還有一些成本包含一些媒合課程等等都在在造成這個東西的阻力那我想請問一下這669位等待受養的孩童其中500多位接近是八九成沒有辦法成功出養的狀況是大家不願意去領養還是有別的原因沒關係"},{"start":191.991,"end":219.503,"text":"我想臺灣的收出養的這個習慣國人的一些他們比較習慣去想要收比較小的小孩可是我們對於這些兒少的有評估有出養的必要性不限於只有小小孩那還有一些可能國人在收養的時候也會如果他有一些身體上面或者是"},{"start":220.424,"end":235.444,"text":"身心障礙的狀況其實國人也不太願意去收養沒有沒有你以我們剛剛那個數字嘛600多人有500多人這500多人很多你是年紀的關係然後的特殊境遇的關係所以以至於無人收養嗎所以你的意思是無人收養是最大的問題是嗎"},{"start":236.985,"end":265.464,"text":"不是那麼單純說是不是無人要去收養其實這個在媒合的過程還要看孩子跟這個收養家庭之間的一個關係有沒有磨合嘛我理解說政府作為把關的單位啦當然要嚴謹嘛要不然萬一要收出養後在家裡面處的不愉快大家回頭過來究責大家可能壓力會很大這本席完全願意理解但以這個案例來講它證明了一件事啊就是說我們如果"},{"start":266.765,"end":269.889,"text":"政府端在處理的時候他都還是會發生這樣的悲劇"},{"start":285.587,"end":307.395,"text":"所以說 流程和成本 某一方面有做研究調查 有一些報導顯示中間的流程複雜 太過嚴格甚至要花成本 送件的費用 後續的追蹤的費用 還有上課還要跑到在地去上課 這一些的門檻有沒有基於這樣的案件發生之後 有去做檢討跟重新討論的可能性"},{"start":308.955,"end":333.306,"text":"報告委員這一個部分的話這些所謂的收出養後來沒有完沒有成功的這個案例的分類我想我們可以再來做一個對我現在就是大家現在討論這件事情就是從制度面去解決這件事情本期認為這樣的背後通案的問題要一次解決免得社會安全網這裡破一個洞那裡破一個洞那永遠個案補不完"},{"start":334.406,"end":353.824,"text":"但是你從通案的角度、制度的角度看能不能讓這個體系更完善這是今天問這個題目非常重要的所以針對收出羊的部分到底原因是什麼是不是會後提供一個完整的資料來做報告好不好這部分麻煩衛福部費一點心好不好那再來就是說以回到這個個案來講在等待出羊的過程之中就剛好是一個"},{"start":354.445,"end":354.846,"text":"這部分會不會做檢討跟修正?"},{"start":371.747,"end":398.976,"text":"目前我們的檢討修正的方向會是說我們就循著委託安置的方向來做因為已經有這個制度在那裡我現在很好奇以這個個案來講他既然都在前面是有類似準計養的一個狀態既然你都講剛剛在答詢的過程中其實你有講說要順利出養除了程序很麻煩之外意願也是很大的一個問題那這種有意願的為什麼不能成全這段緣分"},{"start":400.387,"end":415.737,"text":"所以這部分的話當然剛剛委員問到前一個保姆他是有兩件事情一個是說他想繼續照顧第二個是他想要收養那也許想要收養的部分的話評估起來他"},{"start":417.178,"end":442.409,"text":"現在問題就是這樣嘛,如果我們在收養的部分其實已經很難找到願意接手的人了那有意願提供的,有意願接手的是不是應該給予這個相對寬鬆的標準,或者是願意去承認我們如果擔心孩子送不出去,沒有人收養那是不是有這種中間照顧的時候,也許很照顧得不錯,很投緣那為什麼不順勢就媒合收養呢?這樣會不會比較避免這樣子的狀況發生呢?"},{"start":444.703,"end":465.864,"text":"我跟委員報告一下其實如果說他已經是成為寄養這樣的一個狀態那其實我們是有一個程序寄養可以轉收養而且他的程序是會比較簡便然後是共同去做一個審查的"},{"start":467.004,"end":484.228,"text":"以這個案例來講他為什麼沒有走這樣子一個流程他不是寄養他是保姆因為現在兒盟是交給保姆去照顧我的意思是說不管是法律上的名詞跟定義是什麼如果他有這樣子的意願的時候"},{"start":484.548,"end":508.019,"text":"是不是應該多給他們一些機會嗎?方向上是這樣嗎?所以剛剛跟委員報告說我們未來要改的就是委託安置委託安置的意思就是說由地方的這個社政主管機關介入來決定說他要送到寄養家庭或者是說安置機構或者是說他選擇的保姆"},{"start":508.834,"end":510.915,"text":"今天就要求我們重做報告我剛剛也答應說一個禮拜四的"},{"start":539.092,"end":542.996,"text":"好我們把這部分也納進報告的範圍好不好好辛苦了謝謝好我們謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢"}]}}}}