{"id":150052,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150052","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/59f92d7d7345497f64a69b19664c8b3ef400872fcf4c8a93f8ba9b0039caa7a6d3fd2c7e8cb69e775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:17:19 - 09:33:56","影片長度":"00:16:37","會議時間":"2024-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月19日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議","id":"院會-11-1-5","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5},"date":"2024-03-19","duration":997,"end_time":"2024-03-19T09:33:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-19T09:17:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":179,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時17分）謝謝主席。我想在正式質詢以前，我支持韓院長，議事就是照議事規定，因為不是只有院會而已，院會以外還有委員會，今天要是說沒有照議事規定來走，未來委員會要怎麼召開？不是只有院會而已啊！所以說我支持韓院長，你就是照議事規定，不管任何在朝在野都一律如此，這樣你才能夠維持公平、客觀、公正，讓大家認同肯定，這一點是毋庸置疑的。因為我在立法院裡也算資深啦！7屆了，也看太多了，一切就是依規定來辦理，所以我認同韓院長你的作法。以上。","來，我們是不是來請行政院陳院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["林委員德福：還有請主計長。"],["主席：麻煩請主計長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員早。"],["林委員德福：院長早。院長，我請教因為M型化社會下的階級發展，也形成M型化的消費市場，就連房市、房價也都呈現M型化。請問院長，這種M型化發展的社會態樣，是不是階級對立的性質，所以對立性質會越來越強？你認為朝向正面發展的機率高不高？"],["陳院長建仁：我想在經濟發展的過程當中，絕大部分的自由民主國家在經濟發展很興盛的時候，確實會有M型化發展的趨勢，有這樣的趨勢的時候，站在政府的立場，對於M型化比較弱勢的這一個族群，應該給予比較多的照顧，這是政府應該要做的部分。"],["林委員德福：還是你認為負面的發展機率高？除了正面以外，負面呢？"],["陳院長建仁：我想經濟發展當然是正面的，M型化的發展需要利用不同的方式，使得財富能夠再重分配，譬如說我們減稅、加薪、房租的補貼、社會住宅還有社會福利制度，都是使M型化的趨勢減緩，讓弱勢得到更好的照顧。"],["朱主計長澤民：報告委員，我們的總預算裡面大概有百分之二十六都是用在社會福利制度，大概有近8,000億，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：好，我請教，除了消費M型化，現在連房市房價都朝M型化的趨勢在走，政府到底有沒有能力來化解日益提升的對立呢？因為M型化以後就產生對立啊！"],["陳院長建仁：在臺灣M型化，還有社會階級對立的情況，相對還緩和……"],["林委員德福：還緩和？"],["陳院長建仁：最主要的原因，舉一個例子像居住正義的部分，政府就蓋社會住宅、提供房租的補貼，還有房貸的補貼……"],["林委員德福：社宅是這樣子，因為畫大餅……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有畫大餅啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有畫大餅。"],["林委員德福：實際上所提的政見跟實際的執行落差很大，我們都清清楚楚的。院長，109年央行第三季的理監事會會議紀錄，曾經因為疫情的影響擔心產業過度的集中半導體，現在過了3年半，半導體向GDP占比20%靠攏。請問院長，外界對臺灣有荷蘭病的看法，你認為會不會是因為半導體而最後成真啊？"],["陳院長建仁：很重要的一件事情，半導體產業除了半導體製造以外，上下游的產業實際上也一起在發展，所以半導體只是一個龍頭，但是這個龍頭會使得臺灣產業整體的向上發展。"],["林委員德福：我知道……"],["陳院長建仁：甚至服務業也是在發展的過程當中，當然我們需要使我們的產業更多元，譬如說生醫產業該發展、工具機該發展，我們都同意。但是……"],["林委員德福：院長，半導體的頂尖人才在臺灣是用高薪來堆疊，連帶推升半導體相關產業的員工薪資所得，這是成正比的，但是其他產業不論是淡季、旺季，只有少數高薪的員工，講實在話多數都是苦哈哈的啦！請問院長，政府有辦法來扭轉非半導體產業薪資結構的極端扁平化嗎？有沒有辦法？"],["陳院長建仁：我們應該反向來講，如果半導體產業的薪資高，那他的所得稅也交的高，所得稅交的高，政府稅收多，政府稅收多就能夠來推動很多社會福利的金額，剛才講過已經超過了百分之二十六，所以我們不要去壓抑有市場的機制……"],["林委員德福：這個不是壓抑。"],["陳院長建仁：很重要的，我們要讓一般勞工的薪資也要增加，所以大院也通過了最低工資法嘛！"],["林委員德福：對，今天我不是指壓抑，我認為最重要是我們要如何來全面的照顧，不管是軍公教甚至於所有產業的員工。本席以為就算是政府的公務員，大多數公務生涯也就是只能期待調薪啦，更不用說升職！也難怪連公職鐵飯碗也不時會出現轉換跑道的情況，請問其他產業的人才能夠留住嗎？你認為呢？"],["陳院長建仁：委員你可能也很清楚，在蔡總統執政的這8年，我們的基本工資，不管是月薪跟時薪都有大幅度的成長。"],["林委員德福：有調，我知道啊！但是……"],["陳院長建仁：每一年在調，而且軍公教也已經調漲了11%，去年大院又通過了最低工資法，我們每一年都會來檢討基本工資，這個部分就是希望每一個企業都能夠讓員工有更多分潤的機會，使員工的薪水能夠來提升。"],["林委員德福：部長，事實上臺灣已經走上M型化社會的型態，我們可以用有錢的人變成更有錢、窮的人變成更窮來形容M型化的整個社會。因為過去社會主體的中產階級，現在不再是主體，大多數中產階級會逐漸地變成低收入的這些群體，更糟糕的是下層階級向上流通的這些通道似乎也消失……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啦！沒有消失啦！"],["林委員德福：公平競爭的機會是越來越少，所以就算受過高等教育的社會底層，也沒有辦法翻轉他的命運獲得高薪或穩定的工作。我們來看近期電價的調漲，在政府眼中已經細緻化的漲價方案，民眾依舊怨言不斷，對政策反彈、不買單是顯而易見的，多數民眾認為政府官員根本沒有辦法體會民眾為什麼會有錙銖必較的心態，完全不知道民間疾苦，請問院長，現在臺灣是不是面臨這樣的困境呢？"],["陳院長建仁：好，委員你剛才提到財富分配的事情，如果以吉尼係數來看，實際上我們比歐美國家甚至東亞國家，包括日本、南韓，我們的吉尼係數比他們的還要理想。"],["林委員德福：所以你認為很好？"],["朱主計長澤民：比他們低。"],["陳院長建仁：換句話說，我們的M型化比他們低，也就是我們M型化狀況還沒有他們嚴重。","關於電價問題，委員也講得很對，我們就是為了要照顧社會的弱勢，所以用得很細緻，對電價消費度數低的漲幅就很低，相對於住豪宅的人，漲幅就較高；對商家也是一樣，用電量低的，當然給他的電價低，商家用電量高，譬如豪華的商家，用電量當然要高，所以這樣的電價調整，多多少少對M型化社會的經濟再分配有幫助。對產業也是一樣，如果是上升中、發展很好的產業，我們會給他比較高的電價。"],["林委員德福：要是像院長你講得這麼好，為何民眾對生活環境的怨言越來越多？痛苦指數越來越高？反彈和不滿的聲音比過去幾十年來還要多？真的是如此喔！"],["陳院長建仁：你講的痛苦指數部分，剛好相反耶！就我所知，國際上的評比，臺灣是屬於痛苦指數比較低的國家。"],["林委員德福：為什麼？院長，因為物價節節高漲，尤其是每天外食的外食族，便當漲上去就下不來，我相信主計長應該清清楚楚，很多委員就是問你這個問題，因為薪水沒有拉到那裡，以前可能70到80塊就能買到便當，現在沒有100、120、130，真的買不到像樣一點的便當，最起碼要可以吃。我認為民以食為本，關於這些問題，實際上薪水沒有加，買的東西越來越少，當然痛苦指數就往上飆嘛，對不對？沒有錯，你說加薪，實際上到目前為止一般正常的大學畢業以後，要是沒有領個三萬多塊怎麼生活？尤其有的人還要租房子，南部上來北部就業的，租個房子1個月只剩1、2萬塊，最起碼租個房子就要1萬塊左右，生活剛剛好可以過而已，其實我們都很清楚啦！院長。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講的也是反映了一些剛出社會工作的年輕人問題，所以我剛剛也跟你報告，實際上年輕人租房子有房租津貼，而且對於年輕人，現在我們減稅的額度調高，免稅額高的話，他也就不用繳稅。政府也是從各方向來幫助這些剛到社會的年輕人，我們有這樣的體認。如果他們要結婚生小孩，我們有也育兒津貼的增加，而且幫忙照顧他們的長照、幫忙照顧他們的長輩。"],["林委員德福：院長，央行楊總裁後天要召開今年第一季的理監事會。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員德福：雖然面對美國可能降息，楊總裁說臺灣有電價要漲的變數，所以面對通膨，上半年沒有降息的可能，至於是否升息，則說會嚴肅討論這個議題。","針對調漲電價可能造成國內CPI上漲的壓力，央行對升息或降息沒有確定性的表態，請問院長，這次電價調漲對物價的影響是不是一定可以控制呢？"],["陳院長建仁：關於央行開理事會，這實在是太專業的問題，我們讓理事會來做決定，而調整電價對於物價可能的影響……"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["陳院長建仁：跟委員報告……"],["林委員德福：你們可控嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：實際上很多國家在前兩、三年時，當它的燃料價格上升的時候，它就及時反映了當時的成本價格，所以電價調漲都是超過50%、70%，甚至一倍以上。但是，我們為了要使物價能夠穩定，當時央行也好，主計長也好，都一直在講，我們應該要讓電價的調整頻繁，由台電去吸收一些成本，讓物價沒有那麼快上升。所以我們前幾年物價上漲的幅度，比起其他的國家來得低，就是因為我們用細緻的電價調整，使得物價上升不會像……"],["林委員德福：院長，前幾年因為沒有要選舉，所以連續選舉……"],["陳院長建仁：不是！不是！完全不是！"],["林委員德福：所有電價委員會幾乎都沒有調漲，但是現在沒有選舉，所以今年你要是非調……"],["陳院長建仁：這是反映成本，我們有調過兩次，一次是8%，一次是11%。"],["林委員德福：那個很少啦！院長，但是這次不一樣喔！你應該清清楚楚的，對不對？不然的話，台電虧損3,800多億，為什麼說要用我們的超徵去補貼，然後跟主計長這邊在拉扯，但是主計長認為超徵不能全部都拿去補貼……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我們沒有所謂意見不同，我們是一個共同的、在行政院的決策之下去做事情。"],["林委員德福：本席認為，最重要就是物價要控制，民眾、大眾現在都有物價怕失控的疑慮，所以大宗物資降稅的時程延長，是不是解決的唯一辦法，還是有別的辦法可以來穩定物價？這一點是民眾關心的、老百姓關心的，你有什麼看法？"],["陳院長建仁：我們實際上要讓物價不要上升，有各式各樣不同方法，包括剛才你講的大宗物資貨物稅繼續調降等等，實際上，央行在物價的調整中也提供了很多重要的意見，是不是給我們總裁說明一下？"],["林委員德福：好。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上，去年我們的CPI是2.49，我們的Core、我們的核心CPI是2.61。再來，現在電價會調漲，但是根據估測的結果，我們的CPI跟核心的CPI還是會慢慢的下來，也就是說，即使它會超過2%以上，但還是會比去年來得低。"],["林委員德福：所以你們認為這次的電價調漲對未來整個的物價，不會跟著直接反映，是不是這樣？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，這個完全要看市場供需，但是我們會在整個過程當中採行適當的措施，不會讓它……"],["林委員德福：因為幾乎立法院所有委員都在擔心這一次整個電價調漲以後，所有的物價全部跟著漲。行政院物價穩定小組會議本來是每3個月召開一次，現在改為每個月召開一次，目的就是要積極監控物價的變化。媒體報導，考量整個國際物價持續的波動，加上電價及時的調整，小組會議會研議對策，尤其是減徵這些原料的貨物稅等等，因為它將於3月底屆期，所以可望再展延一季或者是6個月，一旦確定將是降稅實施的第11度延長，如果降稅再延長，行政院有估算過國庫的稅損會有影響嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有，這個我們實際上已經有估算過，等一下再提供給委員相關的資訊。"],["林委員德福：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝林委員德福的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第3位吳委員春城質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱志偉","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","林德福","吳春城","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞","麥玉珍","葉元之","張嘉郡","范雲","陳秀寳","林倩綺","鄭正鈐","張雅琳","王美惠","廖偉翔","陳俊宇","林憶君","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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{\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 204.696, \"end\": 204.916, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 204.916, \"end\": 206.016, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 206.016, \"end\": 206.176, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 206.176, \"end\": 206.356, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 206.356, \"end\": 206.516, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 206.516, \"end\": 206.716, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 206.716, \"end\": 206.896, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 206.896, \"end\": 207.057, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 207.057, \"end\": 207.197, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 207.197, \"end\": 209.017, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 209.017, \"end\": 209.557, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"央\", 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 214.398, \"end\": 214.558, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 214.558, \"end\": 215.539, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 215.539, \"end\": 216.319, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 216.319, \"end\": 216.459, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 216.459, \"end\": 216.619, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 216.619, \"end\": 216.839, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 216.839, \"end\": 217.359, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 217.359, \"end\": 218.559, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 218.559, \"end\": 218.9, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 218.9, \"end\": 219.04, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 219.04, \"end\": 219.2, \"score\": 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\"end\": 994.068, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,389 --> 00:00:15,099\n謝謝主席我想在政治執行以前\n\n2\n00:00:16,331 --> 00:00:40,617\n我支持韓院長就是議事啊就是照議事規定因為不是只有院會而已啊你院會以外還有委員會啊啊你今天還是說沒有照議事規定來走未來啊委員會要怎麼召開不是只有院會而已啊所以說我支持韓院長你就是照議事規定不管任何再朝再野都一律如此\n\n3\n00:00:41,657 --> 00:01:06,330\n這樣你才能夠維持公平、客觀、公正讓大家認同、肯定這一點是毋庸置疑的因為我在立法院裡也算資深七屆了也看太多了一切就是依規定來辦所以說我認同韓院長你的做法以上來我們是不是來請那個陳院長我們行政院陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢麻煩請主計長備詢\n\n4\n00:01:14,537 --> 00:01:43,954\n委員長,我請教因為M型化社會下的階級發展也形成M型化的消費市場就連房市房價也都呈現M型化那請問院長這種M型化發展的社會太樣是不是階級對立的性質會越來越強你認為朝向正面發展的機率高不高\n\n5\n00:01:44,755 --> 00:02:00,060\n我想在經濟發展的這個過程當中絕大部分的這個自由民主的國家在經濟發展很興盛的時候確實會有M型化發展的趨勢有這樣的趨勢的時候站在政府的立場\n\n6\n00:02:00,828 --> 00:02:00,848\n﹚市長﹚\n\n7\n00:02:21,829 --> 00:02:23,830\n報告委員,我們的總預算裡面大概有26%都是用在社會福利支柱,大概有近8000億,謝謝。\n\n8\n00:02:43,157 --> 00:02:56,958\n除了消費M型化,現在連房市、房價都朝M型化趨勢在走。政府到底有沒有能力來化解日益提升的對立呢?因為M型化以後就產生對立\n\n9\n00:02:58,123 --> 00:03:12,398\n在臺灣以M型化的情況下還有社會階級的這個對立的情況相對還緩和最主要的一個原因舉一個例子像居住正義的部分那政府就蓋社會住宅還有房租的補貼還有這個房貸的補貼社財是這樣子因為齁畫大餅沒有畫大餅沒有畫大餅實際上齁\n\n10\n00:03:21,535 --> 00:03:42,360\n這個政見所提的跟務實時期的落差很大。我們都清清楚楚的。院長,109年央行第三季的理監事會紀錄曾經因為疫情的影響擔心產業過度的集中半導體。現在過了三年半,半導體向GDP佔比20%靠攏。\n\n11\n00:03:45,241 --> 00:04:08,142\n請問院長外界對臺灣有荷蘭病的看法你認為會不會是因為半導體最後成真?我想很重要的一件事情半導體產業除了半導體製造以外實際上上下游的產業實際上也一起在發展所以實際上半導體它只是一個龍頭但是這個龍頭會使得臺灣的產業\n\n12\n00:04:12,325 --> 00:04:14,866\n委員長,半導體的頂尖人才在臺灣是用高薪來堆疊年代推升半導體相關產業的員工薪資所得。\n\n13\n00:04:37,555 --> 00:04:40,758\n我想我們應該反向來講,如果半導體的產業他的薪資高,那他的所得\n\n14\n00:05:03,212 --> 00:05:03,492\n﹚林德福\n\n15\n00:05:18,151 --> 00:05:42,985\n市場的機制但是很重要的我們要讓一般的勞工的薪資也要增加所以大院也通過了基本這個最低工資法最重要我是認為說我們要如何來造福我們全面的這些不管是軍公教甚至於所有產業的這些員工本席以為就算是政府的公務員大多數公務生涯\n\n16\n00:05:43,985 --> 00:06:00,554\n也就是只能期待調薪,更不用說升職,所以說也難怪連工職、鐵換碗也不時會出現轉換跑道的這種情況。那請問其他產業的人才能夠留住嗎?你認為呢?\n\n17\n00:06:02,585 --> 00:06:26,167\n委員你可能也很清楚在蔡總統執政的這8年我們的基本工資不管是月薪跟時薪都有大幅度的成長每一年在調而且軍工教也已經調漲了11%所以實際上去年大院又通過了最低工資法我們每一年都會來檢討基本工資這一個部分就是希望\n\n18\n00:06:27,708 --> 00:06:43,939\n每一個企業都能夠讓員工有更多的分潤的機會使員工的薪水能夠來提升事實上台灣已經走上M型化社會的一個形態我們可以用有錢的人變成更有錢\n\n19\n00:06:44,679 --> 00:06:45,119\n主席\n\n20\n00:07:01,869 --> 00:07:19,099\n更糟糕的是下層階級向流通的這些通道似乎也消失向上流通的通道也消失所以說公平競爭的機會是越來越少所以說就算受過高等教育的社會底層\n\n21\n00:07:20,180 --> 00:07:34,873\n也沒有辦法翻轉他的命運,獲得高薪或穩定的工作。就近期我們來看電價,調帳來看,在政府眼中已經細緻化的漲價方案,那民眾意就是怨言不斷。\n\n22\n00:07:35,754 --> 00:07:35,774\n好,呃\n\n23\n00:07:59,275 --> 00:08:27,893\n委員你剛才提到說我們的財富分配的這個事情如果以經理係數來看的話實際上我們比起歐美國家還有一些甚至是我們東亞的國家包括日本南韓我們的經理係數還比他們要來的理想換句話說我們比他們低也就是說我們M型化的狀況還沒有他們來的嚴重那關於這個電價的問題委員也講得很對我們就是為了要照顧比較\n\n24\n00:08:29,207 --> 00:08:29,407\n﹚林德福﹚\n\n25\n00:08:53,511 --> 00:08:57,013\n現場你講得這麼好的話為什麼民眾對生活環境怨言越來越多而且痛苦指數越來越高反彈和不滿的聲音比過去幾十年來\n\n26\n00:09:21,086 --> 00:09:39,957\n你講的痛苦指數的部分剛好相反,就我所知道的國際上的評比,臺灣都是屬於痛苦指數比較低的國家。因為物價節節高漲,甚至尤其是像你那每天外食族,那個便當\n\n27\n00:09:41,258 --> 00:10:05,826\n站上去就下不來我相信主計長你應該清清楚楚的很多委員就是問你這個問題但是因為你薪水沒有拉到那裡結果你以前可能7、80塊就可以買到便當你現在沒有100、120、130真的買不到這個比較像樣一點點的便當最起碼可以吃但是我認為這個\n\n28\n00:10:08,067 --> 00:10:33,970\n民以食為本那我認為說像這些問題實際上他們薪水也沒有加我買的東西越來越少當然痛苦指數就往上飆嘛對不對那你說加薪沒有錯但實際上加薪到目前為止你說正常的一般這個大學畢業以後你要是沒有領個三萬多塊怎麼生活\n\n29\n00:10:34,878 --> 00:10:55,512\n什麼生活尤其有的是還要租房子北部上來南部上北部來就業的他租個房子一個月只剩最起碼租個房子要一萬五塊左右只剩一兩萬塊剛剛生活可以過而已其實我們都很清楚\n\n30\n00:10:56,292 --> 00:11:14,629\n委員基本上您講的也是反映了一些剛剛出來社會上工作的這些年輕人的問題所以我剛才也跟您報告說實際上像年輕人租房子我們就有房租津貼而且年輕人我們那個減稅額度現在就調高所以他的這個免稅額\n\n31\n00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:16,110\n主席\n\n32\n00:11:36,385 --> 00:11:54,978\n院長,央行總裁陽總裁後天要召開今年第一季的理監事會,面對美國雖然可能降息,陽總裁說臺灣有電價要漲的變數,所以面對通膨上半年沒有降息的可能,至於是否升息,則說會嚴肅的來討論這個議題,那針對\n\n33\n00:12:00,256 --> 00:12:00,596\n我想這一個\n\n34\n00:12:17,846 --> 00:12:41,357\n央行開理事會這是實在是太專業的問題我們讓理事會來做決定那對於這一個調整電價對於物價的可能的影響我要跟委員報告實際上很多的國家在這一個前兩三年的時候當他的染料的價格上升的時候他就及時的反映當時的成本價格所以那個電價調漲都是超過50%、70%甚至一倍以上\n\n35\n00:12:45,239 --> 00:13:10,471\n但是我們為了要使得物價能夠穩定當時央行也好主席長也好都一直在講說我們應該要讓電價的調整平凡由台電去吸收一些成本讓物價沒有那麼上升所以我們在前幾年的物價上漲的幅度比起其他的國家來的低就是因為我們用細緻的電價調整來使得物價的上升不會向前幾天因為沒有要選舉所以說聯繫選舉\n\n36\n00:13:13,632 --> 00:13:32,703\n所以說你看所有電價委員會幾乎都沒有調漲但是現在沒有選舉所以說今年你要是回調反應成本我們有調過兩次一次是8%一次11%但是那個院長這次是不一樣你應該清清楚楚的對不對不然的話台電虧損3800多億\n\n37\n00:13:35,524 --> 00:13:35,724\n因為本期是認為說\n\n38\n00:13:58,959 --> 00:14:18,109\n最重要就是物價要控制民眾大眾都是認為現在物價怕失控的一個疑慮所以說大眾物資降稅的時程延長是不是解決唯一的辦法還是有別的辦法可以來穩定物價這一點是民眾關心的老百姓關心的有沒有什麼看法\n\n39\n00:14:19,195 --> 00:14:37,212\n我們實際上要讓物價不要上升有各式各樣不同方法包括剛才你講的貨物稅的這個繼續的大宗貨物稅的繼續的調降等等實際上央行在物價的調整中也提供了很多重要的意見是不是給我們總裁講幾句話\n\n40\n00:14:38,728 --> 00:15:06,593\n我跟委員報告,事實上呢,我們去年我們的CPI是2.49,我們的CORE,我們的核心是2.61。但是呢,現在就是說,電價會調漲,但是我們估測的結果呢,我們的CPI跟核心的CPI還是會慢慢地下來的。所以呢,也就是說,即使它會超過2%以上,但是還是會比去年來得低。\n\n41\n00:15:07,133 --> 00:15:14,400\n所以說你們認為這次的電價調漲對整個未來物價不會跟著直接緩逆是不是這樣?\n\n42\n00:15:15,343 --> 00:15:41,228\n跟那個委員報告一下這個的話完全看市場工具但是我們會在整個過程當中採選適當的措施不會讓他說因為幾乎立法院所有的委員都在擔心這一次整個電價調漲以後這個所有的物價全部跟著漲那我是認為行政院物價穩定小組會議今年是每三個月召開一次\n\n43\n00:15:42,288 --> 00:16:01,694\n現在改為每個月召開一次目的就是要積極去監控物價的變化那媒體報導考量整個國際物價持續的波動加上建價及時的調整小組會議會研議對策尤其是減增這些原料的像剛剛講的貨物稅等等\n\n44\n00:16:04,236 --> 00:16:21,173\n將於3月底借期就是到時間可望在展延一季或者是6個月一旦確定是將是降稅實施這第11度的延長那如果降稅再延長行政院有估算過國庫的稅損會有\n\n45\n00:16:32,287 --> 00:16:34,068\n謝謝林委員德福的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10389\t15099\t謝謝主席我想在政治執行以前\n16331\t40617\t我支持韓院長就是議事啊就是照議事規定因為不是只有院會而已啊你院會以外還有委員會啊啊你今天還是說沒有照議事規定來走未來啊委員會要怎麼召開不是只有院會而已啊所以說我支持韓院長你就是照議事規定不管任何再朝再野都一律如此\n41657\t66330\t這樣你才能夠維持公平、客觀、公正讓大家認同、肯定這一點是毋庸置疑的因為我在立法院裡也算資深七屆了也看太多了一切就是依規定來辦所以說我認同韓院長你的做法以上來我們是不是來請那個陳院長我們行政院陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢麻煩請主計長備詢\n74537\t103954\t委員長,我請教因為M型化社會下的階級發展也形成M型化的消費市場就連房市房價也都呈現M型化那請問院長這種M型化發展的社會太樣是不是階級對立的性質會越來越強你認為朝向正面發展的機率高不高\n104755\t120060\t我想在經濟發展的這個過程當中絕大部分的這個自由民主的國家在經濟發展很興盛的時候確實會有M型化發展的趨勢有這樣的趨勢的時候站在政府的立場\n120828\t120848\t﹚市長﹚\n141829\t143830\t報告委員,我們的總預算裡面大概有26%都是用在社會福利支柱,大概有近8000億,謝謝。\n163157\t176958\t除了消費M型化,現在連房市、房價都朝M型化趨勢在走。政府到底有沒有能力來化解日益提升的對立呢?因為M型化以後就產生對立\n178123\t192398\t在臺灣以M型化的情況下還有社會階級的這個對立的情況相對還緩和最主要的一個原因舉一個例子像居住正義的部分那政府就蓋社會住宅還有房租的補貼還有這個房貸的補貼社財是這樣子因為齁畫大餅沒有畫大餅沒有畫大餅實際上齁\n201535\t222360\t這個政見所提的跟務實時期的落差很大。我們都清清楚楚的。院長,109年央行第三季的理監事會紀錄曾經因為疫情的影響擔心產業過度的集中半導體。現在過了三年半,半導體向GDP佔比20%靠攏。\n225241\t248142\t請問院長外界對臺灣有荷蘭病的看法你認為會不會是因為半導體最後成真?我想很重要的一件事情半導體產業除了半導體製造以外實際上上下游的產業實際上也一起在發展所以實際上半導體它只是一個龍頭但是這個龍頭會使得臺灣的產業\n252325\t254866\t委員長,半導體的頂尖人才在臺灣是用高薪來堆疊年代推升半導體相關產業的員工薪資所得。\n277555\t280758\t我想我們應該反向來講,如果半導體的產業他的薪資高,那他的所得\n303212\t303492\t﹚林德福\n318151\t342985\t市場的機制但是很重要的我們要讓一般的勞工的薪資也要增加所以大院也通過了基本這個最低工資法最重要我是認為說我們要如何來造福我們全面的這些不管是軍公教甚至於所有產業的這些員工本席以為就算是政府的公務員大多數公務生涯\n343985\t360554\t也就是只能期待調薪,更不用說升職,所以說也難怪連工職、鐵換碗也不時會出現轉換跑道的這種情況。那請問其他產業的人才能夠留住嗎?你認為呢?\n362585\t386167\t委員你可能也很清楚在蔡總統執政的這8年我們的基本工資不管是月薪跟時薪都有大幅度的成長每一年在調而且軍工教也已經調漲了11%所以實際上去年大院又通過了最低工資法我們每一年都會來檢討基本工資這一個部分就是希望\n387708\t403939\t每一個企業都能夠讓員工有更多的分潤的機會使員工的薪水能夠來提升事實上台灣已經走上M型化社會的一個形態我們可以用有錢的人變成更有錢\n404679\t405119\t主席\n421869\t439099\t更糟糕的是下層階級向流通的這些通道似乎也消失向上流通的通道也消失所以說公平競爭的機會是越來越少所以說就算受過高等教育的社會底層\n440180\t454873\t也沒有辦法翻轉他的命運,獲得高薪或穩定的工作。就近期我們來看電價,調帳來看,在政府眼中已經細緻化的漲價方案,那民眾意就是怨言不斷。\n455754\t455774\t好,呃\n479275\t507893\t委員你剛才提到說我們的財富分配的這個事情如果以經理係數來看的話實際上我們比起歐美國家還有一些甚至是我們東亞的國家包括日本南韓我們的經理係數還比他們要來的理想換句話說我們比他們低也就是說我們M型化的狀況還沒有他們來的嚴重那關於這個電價的問題委員也講得很對我們就是為了要照顧比較\n509207\t509407\t﹚林德福﹚\n533511\t537013\t現場你講得這麼好的話為什麼民眾對生活環境怨言越來越多而且痛苦指數越來越高反彈和不滿的聲音比過去幾十年來\n561086\t579957\t你講的痛苦指數的部分剛好相反,就我所知道的國際上的評比,臺灣都是屬於痛苦指數比較低的國家。因為物價節節高漲,甚至尤其是像你那每天外食族,那個便當\n581258\t605826\t站上去就下不來我相信主計長你應該清清楚楚的很多委員就是問你這個問題但是因為你薪水沒有拉到那裡結果你以前可能7、80塊就可以買到便當你現在沒有100、120、130真的買不到這個比較像樣一點點的便當最起碼可以吃但是我認為這個\n608067\t633970\t民以食為本那我認為說像這些問題實際上他們薪水也沒有加我買的東西越來越少當然痛苦指數就往上飆嘛對不對那你說加薪沒有錯但實際上加薪到目前為止你說正常的一般這個大學畢業以後你要是沒有領個三萬多塊怎麼生活\n634878\t655512\t什麼生活尤其有的是還要租房子北部上來南部上北部來就業的他租個房子一個月只剩最起碼租個房子要一萬五塊左右只剩一兩萬塊剛剛生活可以過而已其實我們都很清楚\n656292\t674629\t委員基本上您講的也是反映了一些剛剛出來社會上工作的這些年輕人的問題所以我剛才也跟您報告說實際上像年輕人租房子我們就有房租津貼而且年輕人我們那個減稅額度現在就調高所以他的這個免稅額\n675670\t676110\t主席\n696385\t714978\t院長,央行總裁陽總裁後天要召開今年第一季的理監事會,面對美國雖然可能降息,陽總裁說臺灣有電價要漲的變數,所以面對通膨上半年沒有降息的可能,至於是否升息,則說會嚴肅的來討論這個議題,那針對\n720256\t720596\t我想這一個\n737846\t761357\t央行開理事會這是實在是太專業的問題我們讓理事會來做決定那對於這一個調整電價對於物價的可能的影響我要跟委員報告實際上很多的國家在這一個前兩三年的時候當他的染料的價格上升的時候他就及時的反映當時的成本價格所以那個電價調漲都是超過50%、70%甚至一倍以上\n765239\t790471\t但是我們為了要使得物價能夠穩定當時央行也好主席長也好都一直在講說我們應該要讓電價的調整平凡由台電去吸收一些成本讓物價沒有那麼上升所以我們在前幾年的物價上漲的幅度比起其他的國家來的低就是因為我們用細緻的電價調整來使得物價的上升不會向前幾天因為沒有要選舉所以說聯繫選舉\n793632\t812703\t所以說你看所有電價委員會幾乎都沒有調漲但是現在沒有選舉所以說今年你要是回調反應成本我們有調過兩次一次是8%一次11%但是那個院長這次是不一樣你應該清清楚楚的對不對不然的話台電虧損3800多億\n815524\t815724\t因為本期是認為說\n838959\t858109\t最重要就是物價要控制民眾大眾都是認為現在物價怕失控的一個疑慮所以說大眾物資降稅的時程延長是不是解決唯一的辦法還是有別的辦法可以來穩定物價這一點是民眾關心的老百姓關心的有沒有什麼看法\n859195\t877212\t我們實際上要讓物價不要上升有各式各樣不同方法包括剛才你講的貨物稅的這個繼續的大宗貨物稅的繼續的調降等等實際上央行在物價的調整中也提供了很多重要的意見是不是給我們總裁講幾句話\n878728\t906593\t我跟委員報告,事實上呢,我們去年我們的CPI是2.49,我們的CORE,我們的核心是2.61。但是呢,現在就是說,電價會調漲,但是我們估測的結果呢,我們的CPI跟核心的CPI還是會慢慢地下來的。所以呢,也就是說,即使它會超過2%以上,但是還是會比去年來得低。\n907133\t914400\t所以說你們認為這次的電價調漲對整個未來物價不會跟著直接緩逆是不是這樣?\n915343\t941228\t跟那個委員報告一下這個的話完全看市場工具但是我們會在整個過程當中採選適當的措施不會讓他說因為幾乎立法院所有的委員都在擔心這一次整個電價調漲以後這個所有的物價全部跟著漲那我是認為行政院物價穩定小組會議今年是每三個月召開一次\n942288\t961694\t現在改為每個月召開一次目的就是要積極去監控物價的變化那媒體報導考量整個國際物價持續的波動加上建價及時的調整小組會議會研議對策尤其是減增這些原料的像剛剛講的貨物稅等等\n964236\t981173\t將於3月底借期就是到時間可望在展延一季或者是6個月一旦確定是將是降稅實施這第11度的延長那如果降稅再延長行政院有估算過國庫的稅損會有\n992287\t994068\t謝謝林委員德福的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來\n","txt":"謝謝主席我想在政治執行以前\n我支持韓院長就是議事啊就是照議事規定因為不是只有院會而已啊你院會以外還有委員會啊啊你今天還是說沒有照議事規定來走未來啊委員會要怎麼召開不是只有院會而已啊所以說我支持韓院長你就是照議事規定不管任何再朝再野都一律如此\n這樣你才能夠維持公平、客觀、公正讓大家認同、肯定這一點是毋庸置疑的因為我在立法院裡也算資深七屆了也看太多了一切就是依規定來辦所以說我認同韓院長你的做法以上來我們是不是來請那個陳院長我們行政院陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢麻煩請主計長備詢\n委員長,我請教因為M型化社會下的階級發展也形成M型化的消費市場就連房市房價也都呈現M型化那請問院長這種M型化發展的社會太樣是不是階級對立的性質會越來越強你認為朝向正面發展的機率高不高\n我想在經濟發展的這個過程當中絕大部分的這個自由民主的國家在經濟發展很興盛的時候確實會有M型化發展的趨勢有這樣的趨勢的時候站在政府的立場\n﹚市長﹚\n報告委員,我們的總預算裡面大概有26%都是用在社會福利支柱,大概有近8000億,謝謝。\n除了消費M型化,現在連房市、房價都朝M型化趨勢在走。政府到底有沒有能力來化解日益提升的對立呢?因為M型化以後就產生對立\n在臺灣以M型化的情況下還有社會階級的這個對立的情況相對還緩和最主要的一個原因舉一個例子像居住正義的部分那政府就蓋社會住宅還有房租的補貼還有這個房貸的補貼社財是這樣子因為齁畫大餅沒有畫大餅沒有畫大餅實際上齁\n這個政見所提的跟務實時期的落差很大。我們都清清楚楚的。院長,109年央行第三季的理監事會紀錄曾經因為疫情的影響擔心產業過度的集中半導體。現在過了三年半,半導體向GDP佔比20%靠攏。\n請問院長外界對臺灣有荷蘭病的看法你認為會不會是因為半導體最後成真?我想很重要的一件事情半導體產業除了半導體製造以外實際上上下游的產業實際上也一起在發展所以實際上半導體它只是一個龍頭但是這個龍頭會使得臺灣的產業\n委員長,半導體的頂尖人才在臺灣是用高薪來堆疊年代推升半導體相關產業的員工薪資所得。\n我想我們應該反向來講,如果半導體的產業他的薪資高,那他的所得\n﹚林德福\n市場的機制但是很重要的我們要讓一般的勞工的薪資也要增加所以大院也通過了基本這個最低工資法最重要我是認為說我們要如何來造福我們全面的這些不管是軍公教甚至於所有產業的這些員工本席以為就算是政府的公務員大多數公務生涯\n也就是只能期待調薪,更不用說升職,所以說也難怪連工職、鐵換碗也不時會出現轉換跑道的這種情況。那請問其他產業的人才能夠留住嗎?你認為呢?\n委員你可能也很清楚在蔡總統執政的這8年我們的基本工資不管是月薪跟時薪都有大幅度的成長每一年在調而且軍工教也已經調漲了11%所以實際上去年大院又通過了最低工資法我們每一年都會來檢討基本工資這一個部分就是希望\n每一個企業都能夠讓員工有更多的分潤的機會使員工的薪水能夠來提升事實上台灣已經走上M型化社會的一個形態我們可以用有錢的人變成更有錢\n主席\n更糟糕的是下層階級向流通的這些通道似乎也消失向上流通的通道也消失所以說公平競爭的機會是越來越少所以說就算受過高等教育的社會底層\n也沒有辦法翻轉他的命運,獲得高薪或穩定的工作。就近期我們來看電價,調帳來看,在政府眼中已經細緻化的漲價方案,那民眾意就是怨言不斷。\n好,呃\n委員你剛才提到說我們的財富分配的這個事情如果以經理係數來看的話實際上我們比起歐美國家還有一些甚至是我們東亞的國家包括日本南韓我們的經理係數還比他們要來的理想換句話說我們比他們低也就是說我們M型化的狀況還沒有他們來的嚴重那關於這個電價的問題委員也講得很對我們就是為了要照顧比較\n﹚林德福﹚\n現場你講得這麼好的話為什麼民眾對生活環境怨言越來越多而且痛苦指數越來越高反彈和不滿的聲音比過去幾十年來\n你講的痛苦指數的部分剛好相反,就我所知道的國際上的評比,臺灣都是屬於痛苦指數比較低的國家。因為物價節節高漲,甚至尤其是像你那每天外食族,那個便當\n站上去就下不來我相信主計長你應該清清楚楚的很多委員就是問你這個問題但是因為你薪水沒有拉到那裡結果你以前可能7、80塊就可以買到便當你現在沒有100、120、130真的買不到這個比較像樣一點點的便當最起碼可以吃但是我認為這個\n民以食為本那我認為說像這些問題實際上他們薪水也沒有加我買的東西越來越少當然痛苦指數就往上飆嘛對不對那你說加薪沒有錯但實際上加薪到目前為止你說正常的一般這個大學畢業以後你要是沒有領個三萬多塊怎麼生活\n什麼生活尤其有的是還要租房子北部上來南部上北部來就業的他租個房子一個月只剩最起碼租個房子要一萬五塊左右只剩一兩萬塊剛剛生活可以過而已其實我們都很清楚\n委員基本上您講的也是反映了一些剛剛出來社會上工作的這些年輕人的問題所以我剛才也跟您報告說實際上像年輕人租房子我們就有房租津貼而且年輕人我們那個減稅額度現在就調高所以他的這個免稅額\n主席\n院長,央行總裁陽總裁後天要召開今年第一季的理監事會,面對美國雖然可能降息,陽總裁說臺灣有電價要漲的變數,所以面對通膨上半年沒有降息的可能,至於是否升息,則說會嚴肅的來討論這個議題,那針對\n我想這一個\n央行開理事會這是實在是太專業的問題我們讓理事會來做決定那對於這一個調整電價對於物價的可能的影響我要跟委員報告實際上很多的國家在這一個前兩三年的時候當他的染料的價格上升的時候他就及時的反映當時的成本價格所以那個電價調漲都是超過50%、70%甚至一倍以上\n但是我們為了要使得物價能夠穩定當時央行也好主席長也好都一直在講說我們應該要讓電價的調整平凡由台電去吸收一些成本讓物價沒有那麼上升所以我們在前幾年的物價上漲的幅度比起其他的國家來的低就是因為我們用細緻的電價調整來使得物價的上升不會向前幾天因為沒有要選舉所以說聯繫選舉\n所以說你看所有電價委員會幾乎都沒有調漲但是現在沒有選舉所以說今年你要是回調反應成本我們有調過兩次一次是8%一次11%但是那個院長這次是不一樣你應該清清楚楚的對不對不然的話台電虧損3800多億\n因為本期是認為說\n最重要就是物價要控制民眾大眾都是認為現在物價怕失控的一個疑慮所以說大眾物資降稅的時程延長是不是解決唯一的辦法還是有別的辦法可以來穩定物價這一點是民眾關心的老百姓關心的有沒有什麼看法\n我們實際上要讓物價不要上升有各式各樣不同方法包括剛才你講的貨物稅的這個繼續的大宗貨物稅的繼續的調降等等實際上央行在物價的調整中也提供了很多重要的意見是不是給我們總裁講幾句話\n我跟委員報告,事實上呢,我們去年我們的CPI是2.49,我們的CORE,我們的核心是2.61。但是呢,現在就是說,電價會調漲,但是我們估測的結果呢,我們的CPI跟核心的CPI還是會慢慢地下來的。所以呢,也就是說,即使它會超過2%以上,但是還是會比去年來得低。\n所以說你們認為這次的電價調漲對整個未來物價不會跟著直接緩逆是不是這樣?\n跟那個委員報告一下這個的話完全看市場工具但是我們會在整個過程當中採選適當的措施不會讓他說因為幾乎立法院所有的委員都在擔心這一次整個電價調漲以後這個所有的物價全部跟著漲那我是認為行政院物價穩定小組會議今年是每三個月召開一次\n現在改為每個月召開一次目的就是要積極去監控物價的變化那媒體報導考量整個國際物價持續的波動加上建價及時的調整小組會議會研議對策尤其是減增這些原料的像剛剛講的貨物稅等等\n將於3月底借期就是到時間可望在展延一季或者是6個月一旦確定是將是降稅實施這第11度的延長那如果降稅再延長行政院有估算過國庫的稅損會有\n謝謝林委員德福的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.389 --> 00:15.099\n謝謝主席我想在政治執行以前\n\n00:16.331 --> 00:40.617\n我支持韓院長就是議事啊就是照議事規定因為不是只有院會而已啊你院會以外還有委員會啊啊你今天還是說沒有照議事規定來走未來啊委員會要怎麼召開不是只有院會而已啊所以說我支持韓院長你就是照議事規定不管任何再朝再野都一律如此\n\n00:41.657 --> 01:06.330\n這樣你才能夠維持公平、客觀、公正讓大家認同、肯定這一點是毋庸置疑的因為我在立法院裡也算資深七屆了也看太多了一切就是依規定來辦所以說我認同韓院長你的做法以上來我們是不是來請那個陳院長我們行政院陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢麻煩請主計長備詢\n\n01:14.537 --> 01:43.954\n委員長,我請教因為M型化社會下的階級發展也形成M型化的消費市場就連房市房價也都呈現M型化那請問院長這種M型化發展的社會太樣是不是階級對立的性質會越來越強你認為朝向正面發展的機率高不高\n\n01:44.755 --> 02:00.060\n我想在經濟發展的這個過程當中絕大部分的這個自由民主的國家在經濟發展很興盛的時候確實會有M型化發展的趨勢有這樣的趨勢的時候站在政府的立場\n\n02:00.828 --> 02:00.848\n﹚市長﹚\n\n02:21.829 --> 02:23.830\n報告委員,我們的總預算裡面大概有26%都是用在社會福利支柱,大概有近8000億,謝謝。\n\n02:43.157 --> 02:56.958\n除了消費M型化,現在連房市、房價都朝M型化趨勢在走。政府到底有沒有能力來化解日益提升的對立呢?因為M型化以後就產生對立\n\n02:58.123 --> 03:12.398\n在臺灣以M型化的情況下還有社會階級的這個對立的情況相對還緩和最主要的一個原因舉一個例子像居住正義的部分那政府就蓋社會住宅還有房租的補貼還有這個房貸的補貼社財是這樣子因為齁畫大餅沒有畫大餅沒有畫大餅實際上齁\n\n03:21.535 --> 03:42.360\n這個政見所提的跟務實時期的落差很大。我們都清清楚楚的。院長,109年央行第三季的理監事會紀錄曾經因為疫情的影響擔心產業過度的集中半導體。現在過了三年半,半導體向GDP佔比20%靠攏。\n\n03:45.241 --> 04:08.142\n請問院長外界對臺灣有荷蘭病的看法你認為會不會是因為半導體最後成真?我想很重要的一件事情半導體產業除了半導體製造以外實際上上下游的產業實際上也一起在發展所以實際上半導體它只是一個龍頭但是這個龍頭會使得臺灣的產業\n\n04:12.325 --> 04:14.866\n委員長,半導體的頂尖人才在臺灣是用高薪來堆疊年代推升半導體相關產業的員工薪資所得。\n\n04:37.555 --> 04:40.758\n我想我們應該反向來講,如果半導體的產業他的薪資高,那他的所得\n\n05:03.212 --> 05:03.492\n﹚林德福\n\n05:18.151 --> 05:42.985\n市場的機制但是很重要的我們要讓一般的勞工的薪資也要增加所以大院也通過了基本這個最低工資法最重要我是認為說我們要如何來造福我們全面的這些不管是軍公教甚至於所有產業的這些員工本席以為就算是政府的公務員大多數公務生涯\n\n05:43.985 --> 06:00.554\n也就是只能期待調薪,更不用說升職,所以說也難怪連工職、鐵換碗也不時會出現轉換跑道的這種情況。那請問其他產業的人才能夠留住嗎?你認為呢?\n\n06:02.585 --> 06:26.167\n委員你可能也很清楚在蔡總統執政的這8年我們的基本工資不管是月薪跟時薪都有大幅度的成長每一年在調而且軍工教也已經調漲了11%所以實際上去年大院又通過了最低工資法我們每一年都會來檢討基本工資這一個部分就是希望\n\n06:27.708 --> 06:43.939\n每一個企業都能夠讓員工有更多的分潤的機會使員工的薪水能夠來提升事實上台灣已經走上M型化社會的一個形態我們可以用有錢的人變成更有錢\n\n06:44.679 --> 06:45.119\n主席\n\n07:01.869 --> 07:19.099\n更糟糕的是下層階級向流通的這些通道似乎也消失向上流通的通道也消失所以說公平競爭的機會是越來越少所以說就算受過高等教育的社會底層\n\n07:20.180 --> 07:34.873\n也沒有辦法翻轉他的命運,獲得高薪或穩定的工作。就近期我們來看電價,調帳來看,在政府眼中已經細緻化的漲價方案,那民眾意就是怨言不斷。\n\n07:35.754 --> 07:35.774\n好,呃\n\n07:59.275 --> 08:27.893\n委員你剛才提到說我們的財富分配的這個事情如果以經理係數來看的話實際上我們比起歐美國家還有一些甚至是我們東亞的國家包括日本南韓我們的經理係數還比他們要來的理想換句話說我們比他們低也就是說我們M型化的狀況還沒有他們來的嚴重那關於這個電價的問題委員也講得很對我們就是為了要照顧比較\n\n08:29.207 --> 08:29.407\n﹚林德福﹚\n\n08:53.511 --> 08:57.013\n現場你講得這麼好的話為什麼民眾對生活環境怨言越來越多而且痛苦指數越來越高反彈和不滿的聲音比過去幾十年來\n\n09:21.086 --> 09:39.957\n你講的痛苦指數的部分剛好相反,就我所知道的國際上的評比,臺灣都是屬於痛苦指數比較低的國家。因為物價節節高漲,甚至尤其是像你那每天外食族,那個便當\n\n09:41.258 --> 10:05.826\n站上去就下不來我相信主計長你應該清清楚楚的很多委員就是問你這個問題但是因為你薪水沒有拉到那裡結果你以前可能7、80塊就可以買到便當你現在沒有100、120、130真的買不到這個比較像樣一點點的便當最起碼可以吃但是我認為這個\n\n10:08.067 --> 10:33.970\n民以食為本那我認為說像這些問題實際上他們薪水也沒有加我買的東西越來越少當然痛苦指數就往上飆嘛對不對那你說加薪沒有錯但實際上加薪到目前為止你說正常的一般這個大學畢業以後你要是沒有領個三萬多塊怎麼生活\n\n10:34.878 --> 10:55.512\n什麼生活尤其有的是還要租房子北部上來南部上北部來就業的他租個房子一個月只剩最起碼租個房子要一萬五塊左右只剩一兩萬塊剛剛生活可以過而已其實我們都很清楚\n\n10:56.292 --> 11:14.629\n委員基本上您講的也是反映了一些剛剛出來社會上工作的這些年輕人的問題所以我剛才也跟您報告說實際上像年輕人租房子我們就有房租津貼而且年輕人我們那個減稅額度現在就調高所以他的這個免稅額\n\n11:15.670 --> 11:16.110\n主席\n\n11:36.385 --> 11:54.978\n院長,央行總裁陽總裁後天要召開今年第一季的理監事會,面對美國雖然可能降息,陽總裁說臺灣有電價要漲的變數,所以面對通膨上半年沒有降息的可能,至於是否升息,則說會嚴肅的來討論這個議題,那針對\n\n12:00.256 --> 12:00.596\n我想這一個\n\n12:17.846 --> 12:41.357\n央行開理事會這是實在是太專業的問題我們讓理事會來做決定那對於這一個調整電價對於物價的可能的影響我要跟委員報告實際上很多的國家在這一個前兩三年的時候當他的染料的價格上升的時候他就及時的反映當時的成本價格所以那個電價調漲都是超過50%、70%甚至一倍以上\n\n12:45.239 --> 13:10.471\n但是我們為了要使得物價能夠穩定當時央行也好主席長也好都一直在講說我們應該要讓電價的調整平凡由台電去吸收一些成本讓物價沒有那麼上升所以我們在前幾年的物價上漲的幅度比起其他的國家來的低就是因為我們用細緻的電價調整來使得物價的上升不會向前幾天因為沒有要選舉所以說聯繫選舉\n\n13:13.632 --> 13:32.703\n所以說你看所有電價委員會幾乎都沒有調漲但是現在沒有選舉所以說今年你要是回調反應成本我們有調過兩次一次是8%一次11%但是那個院長這次是不一樣你應該清清楚楚的對不對不然的話台電虧損3800多億\n\n13:35.524 --> 13:35.724\n因為本期是認為說\n\n13:58.959 --> 14:18.109\n最重要就是物價要控制民眾大眾都是認為現在物價怕失控的一個疑慮所以說大眾物資降稅的時程延長是不是解決唯一的辦法還是有別的辦法可以來穩定物價這一點是民眾關心的老百姓關心的有沒有什麼看法\n\n14:19.195 --> 14:37.212\n我們實際上要讓物價不要上升有各式各樣不同方法包括剛才你講的貨物稅的這個繼續的大宗貨物稅的繼續的調降等等實際上央行在物價的調整中也提供了很多重要的意見是不是給我們總裁講幾句話\n\n14:38.728 --> 15:06.593\n我跟委員報告,事實上呢,我們去年我們的CPI是2.49,我們的CORE,我們的核心是2.61。但是呢,現在就是說,電價會調漲,但是我們估測的結果呢,我們的CPI跟核心的CPI還是會慢慢地下來的。所以呢,也就是說,即使它會超過2%以上,但是還是會比去年來得低。\n\n15:07.133 --> 15:14.400\n所以說你們認為這次的電價調漲對整個未來物價不會跟著直接緩逆是不是這樣?\n\n15:15.343 --> 15:41.228\n跟那個委員報告一下這個的話完全看市場工具但是我們會在整個過程當中採選適當的措施不會讓他說因為幾乎立法院所有的委員都在擔心這一次整個電價調漲以後這個所有的物價全部跟著漲那我是認為行政院物價穩定小組會議今年是每三個月召開一次\n\n15:42.288 --> 16:01.694\n現在改為每個月召開一次目的就是要積極去監控物價的變化那媒體報導考量整個國際物價持續的波動加上建價及時的調整小組會議會研議對策尤其是減增這些原料的像剛剛講的貨物稅等等\n\n16:04.236 --> 16:21.173\n將於3月底借期就是到時間可望在展延一季或者是6個月一旦確定是將是降稅實施這第11度的延長那如果降稅再延長行政院有估算過國庫的稅損會有\n\n16:32.287 --> 16:34.068\n謝謝林委員德福的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.389,"end":15.099,"text":"謝謝主席我想在政治執行以前"},{"start":16.331,"end":40.617,"text":"我支持韓院長就是議事啊就是照議事規定因為不是只有院會而已啊你院會以外還有委員會啊啊你今天還是說沒有照議事規定來走未來啊委員會要怎麼召開不是只有院會而已啊所以說我支持韓院長你就是照議事規定不管任何再朝再野都一律如此"},{"start":41.657,"end":66.33,"text":"這樣你才能夠維持公平、客觀、公正讓大家認同、肯定這一點是毋庸置疑的因為我在立法院裡也算資深七屆了也看太多了一切就是依規定來辦所以說我認同韓院長你的做法以上來我們是不是來請那個陳院長我們行政院陳院長麻煩再請陳院長備詢麻煩請主計長備詢"},{"start":74.537,"end":103.954,"text":"委員長,我請教因為M型化社會下的階級發展也形成M型化的消費市場就連房市房價也都呈現M型化那請問院長這種M型化發展的社會太樣是不是階級對立的性質會越來越強你認為朝向正面發展的機率高不高"},{"start":104.755,"end":120.06,"text":"我想在經濟發展的這個過程當中絕大部分的這個自由民主的國家在經濟發展很興盛的時候確實會有M型化發展的趨勢有這樣的趨勢的時候站在政府的立場"},{"start":120.828,"end":120.848,"text":"﹚市長﹚"},{"start":141.829,"end":143.83,"text":"報告委員,我們的總預算裡面大概有26%都是用在社會福利支柱,大概有近8000億,謝謝。"},{"start":163.157,"end":176.958,"text":"除了消費M型化,現在連房市、房價都朝M型化趨勢在走。政府到底有沒有能力來化解日益提升的對立呢?因為M型化以後就產生對立"},{"start":178.123,"end":192.398,"text":"在臺灣以M型化的情況下還有社會階級的這個對立的情況相對還緩和最主要的一個原因舉一個例子像居住正義的部分那政府就蓋社會住宅還有房租的補貼還有這個房貸的補貼社財是這樣子因為齁畫大餅沒有畫大餅沒有畫大餅實際上齁"},{"start":201.535,"end":222.36,"text":"這個政見所提的跟務實時期的落差很大。我們都清清楚楚的。院長,109年央行第三季的理監事會紀錄曾經因為疫情的影響擔心產業過度的集中半導體。現在過了三年半,半導體向GDP佔比20%靠攏。"},{"start":225.241,"end":248.142,"text":"請問院長外界對臺灣有荷蘭病的看法你認為會不會是因為半導體最後成真?我想很重要的一件事情半導體產業除了半導體製造以外實際上上下游的產業實際上也一起在發展所以實際上半導體它只是一個龍頭但是這個龍頭會使得臺灣的產業"},{"start":252.325,"end":254.866,"text":"委員長,半導體的頂尖人才在臺灣是用高薪來堆疊年代推升半導體相關產業的員工薪資所得。"},{"start":277.555,"end":280.758,"text":"我想我們應該反向來講,如果半導體的產業他的薪資高,那他的所得"},{"start":303.212,"end":303.492,"text":"﹚林德福"},{"start":318.151,"end":342.985,"text":"市場的機制但是很重要的我們要讓一般的勞工的薪資也要增加所以大院也通過了基本這個最低工資法最重要我是認為說我們要如何來造福我們全面的這些不管是軍公教甚至於所有產業的這些員工本席以為就算是政府的公務員大多數公務生涯"},{"start":343.985,"end":360.554,"text":"也就是只能期待調薪,更不用說升職,所以說也難怪連工職、鐵換碗也不時會出現轉換跑道的這種情況。那請問其他產業的人才能夠留住嗎?你認為呢?"},{"start":362.585,"end":386.167,"text":"委員你可能也很清楚在蔡總統執政的這8年我們的基本工資不管是月薪跟時薪都有大幅度的成長每一年在調而且軍工教也已經調漲了11%所以實際上去年大院又通過了最低工資法我們每一年都會來檢討基本工資這一個部分就是希望"},{"start":387.708,"end":403.939,"text":"每一個企業都能夠讓員工有更多的分潤的機會使員工的薪水能夠來提升事實上台灣已經走上M型化社會的一個形態我們可以用有錢的人變成更有錢"},{"start":404.679,"end":405.119,"text":"主席"},{"start":421.869,"end":439.099,"text":"更糟糕的是下層階級向流通的這些通道似乎也消失向上流通的通道也消失所以說公平競爭的機會是越來越少所以說就算受過高等教育的社會底層"},{"start":440.18,"end":454.873,"text":"也沒有辦法翻轉他的命運,獲得高薪或穩定的工作。就近期我們來看電價,調帳來看,在政府眼中已經細緻化的漲價方案,那民眾意就是怨言不斷。"},{"start":455.754,"end":455.774,"text":"好,呃"},{"start":479.275,"end":507.893,"text":"委員你剛才提到說我們的財富分配的這個事情如果以經理係數來看的話實際上我們比起歐美國家還有一些甚至是我們東亞的國家包括日本南韓我們的經理係數還比他們要來的理想換句話說我們比他們低也就是說我們M型化的狀況還沒有他們來的嚴重那關於這個電價的問題委員也講得很對我們就是為了要照顧比較"},{"start":509.207,"end":509.407,"text":"﹚林德福﹚"},{"start":533.511,"end":537.013,"text":"現場你講得這麼好的話為什麼民眾對生活環境怨言越來越多而且痛苦指數越來越高反彈和不滿的聲音比過去幾十年來"},{"start":561.086,"end":579.957,"text":"你講的痛苦指數的部分剛好相反,就我所知道的國際上的評比,臺灣都是屬於痛苦指數比較低的國家。因為物價節節高漲,甚至尤其是像你那每天外食族,那個便當"},{"start":581.258,"end":605.826,"text":"站上去就下不來我相信主計長你應該清清楚楚的很多委員就是問你這個問題但是因為你薪水沒有拉到那裡結果你以前可能7、80塊就可以買到便當你現在沒有100、120、130真的買不到這個比較像樣一點點的便當最起碼可以吃但是我認為這個"},{"start":608.067,"end":633.97,"text":"民以食為本那我認為說像這些問題實際上他們薪水也沒有加我買的東西越來越少當然痛苦指數就往上飆嘛對不對那你說加薪沒有錯但實際上加薪到目前為止你說正常的一般這個大學畢業以後你要是沒有領個三萬多塊怎麼生活"},{"start":634.878,"end":655.512,"text":"什麼生活尤其有的是還要租房子北部上來南部上北部來就業的他租個房子一個月只剩最起碼租個房子要一萬五塊左右只剩一兩萬塊剛剛生活可以過而已其實我們都很清楚"},{"start":656.292,"end":674.629,"text":"委員基本上您講的也是反映了一些剛剛出來社會上工作的這些年輕人的問題所以我剛才也跟您報告說實際上像年輕人租房子我們就有房租津貼而且年輕人我們那個減稅額度現在就調高所以他的這個免稅額"},{"start":675.67,"end":676.11,"text":"主席"},{"start":696.385,"end":714.978,"text":"院長,央行總裁陽總裁後天要召開今年第一季的理監事會,面對美國雖然可能降息,陽總裁說臺灣有電價要漲的變數,所以面對通膨上半年沒有降息的可能,至於是否升息,則說會嚴肅的來討論這個議題,那針對"},{"start":720.256,"end":720.596,"text":"我想這一個"},{"start":737.846,"end":761.357,"text":"央行開理事會這是實在是太專業的問題我們讓理事會來做決定那對於這一個調整電價對於物價的可能的影響我要跟委員報告實際上很多的國家在這一個前兩三年的時候當他的染料的價格上升的時候他就及時的反映當時的成本價格所以那個電價調漲都是超過50%、70%甚至一倍以上"},{"start":765.239,"end":790.471,"text":"但是我們為了要使得物價能夠穩定當時央行也好主席長也好都一直在講說我們應該要讓電價的調整平凡由台電去吸收一些成本讓物價沒有那麼上升所以我們在前幾年的物價上漲的幅度比起其他的國家來的低就是因為我們用細緻的電價調整來使得物價的上升不會向前幾天因為沒有要選舉所以說聯繫選舉"},{"start":793.632,"end":812.703,"text":"所以說你看所有電價委員會幾乎都沒有調漲但是現在沒有選舉所以說今年你要是回調反應成本我們有調過兩次一次是8%一次11%但是那個院長這次是不一樣你應該清清楚楚的對不對不然的話台電虧損3800多億"},{"start":815.524,"end":815.724,"text":"因為本期是認為說"},{"start":838.959,"end":858.109,"text":"最重要就是物價要控制民眾大眾都是認為現在物價怕失控的一個疑慮所以說大眾物資降稅的時程延長是不是解決唯一的辦法還是有別的辦法可以來穩定物價這一點是民眾關心的老百姓關心的有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":859.195,"end":877.212,"text":"我們實際上要讓物價不要上升有各式各樣不同方法包括剛才你講的貨物稅的這個繼續的大宗貨物稅的繼續的調降等等實際上央行在物價的調整中也提供了很多重要的意見是不是給我們總裁講幾句話"},{"start":878.728,"end":906.593,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上呢,我們去年我們的CPI是2.49,我們的CORE,我們的核心是2.61。但是呢,現在就是說,電價會調漲,但是我們估測的結果呢,我們的CPI跟核心的CPI還是會慢慢地下來的。所以呢,也就是說,即使它會超過2%以上,但是還是會比去年來得低。"},{"start":907.133,"end":914.4,"text":"所以說你們認為這次的電價調漲對整個未來物價不會跟著直接緩逆是不是這樣?"},{"start":915.343,"end":941.228,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下這個的話完全看市場工具但是我們會在整個過程當中採選適當的措施不會讓他說因為幾乎立法院所有的委員都在擔心這一次整個電價調漲以後這個所有的物價全部跟著漲那我是認為行政院物價穩定小組會議今年是每三個月召開一次"},{"start":942.288,"end":961.694,"text":"現在改為每個月召開一次目的就是要積極去監控物價的變化那媒體報導考量整個國際物價持續的波動加上建價及時的調整小組會議會研議對策尤其是減增這些原料的像剛剛講的貨物稅等等"},{"start":964.236,"end":981.173,"text":"將於3月底借期就是到時間可望在展延一季或者是6個月一旦確定是將是降稅實施這第11度的延長那如果降稅再延長行政院有估算過國庫的稅損會有"},{"start":992.287,"end":994.068,"text":"謝謝林委員德福的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來"}]}}}}