{"id":150067,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150067","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/59f92d7d7345497f6d5f4bc9c966ec93f400872fcf4c8a93f8ba9b0039caa7a61b55de518f4f2cb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"15:02:32 - 15:18:09","影片長度":"00:15:37","會議時間":"2024-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月19日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議","id":"院會-11-1-5","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5},"date":"2024-03-19","duration":937,"end_time":"2024-03-19T15:18:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-19T15:02:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1185,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（15時2分）主席，有請行政院陳建仁院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：葛委員午安。"],["葛委員如鈞：很高興一天可以跟您見面兩次。"],["陳院長建仁：我也是。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，您之前在答復其他委員的質詢時曾經表示過，臺股上2萬點非常值得高興，3月8日您的臉書也很科學地用數字表示，從105年到現在，臺灣股市的漲幅是142%，代表臺灣的經濟穩健地發展。我這邊有一份產業類別的營運現況想請教一下，這個營運金額10年成長了163%，說實話真的是很高，比105年以來臺股漲幅142%還更高，我們是不是可以給這樣一個幸福企業喊一聲「加油」，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：這是……"],["葛委員如鈞：加油！"],["陳院長建仁：這是打詐的企業啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：非常好！"],["陳院長建仁：我們應該要認真地把打詐的工作做好……"],["葛委員如鈞：確實真的很遺憾啦！"],["陳院長建仁：但是在112年的時候，基本上我們那一年阻擋的詐騙金額，還有從詐騙集團取回來的錢大概有一百四十幾億。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。但是黑數很多都還沒算進去，媒體也報導說將0.9%的GDP都賠在裡面了！我相信整體來講，我們大家都很遺憾，因為這並不是什麼企業或產業的營運成果，而是詐騙集團每年造成人民血汗錢的損失，也是詐騙集團的營收，10年來從33.8億增加到88.8億，如果以111年的百大企業營收排名來講，居然可以排到臺灣百大企業當中。"],["陳院長建仁：它不是幸福企業。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想請教一下……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我們查到的就有1,400個機房。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，臺灣的詐騙案件數逐年攀升，從110年的兩萬四千多件暴增到112年將近3萬8,000件，增幅高達54%，您就任以來自詡為溫暖內閣，但民眾看到這些事真的不會感到溫暖，可能只會憤怒或傷心。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：這些資料來自警政署，還不包含沒有報案的數量，院長曾經表示打詐需要繼續加強，但是已經有滿多成果，這是您所說的話。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：但實際瀏覽行政院的網站，羅列各種打詐數據，打詐成效的部分還提到國際詐騙電話部分，從112年的5,080萬通下降到1,503萬通，其中「+886」開頭的國際來話數量，自最高112年的1,600萬通持續下降到84萬通。我們先不管「+886」明明就是臺灣的號碼，為什麼會變成國際來話，我們先不管這些，但是我們感覺到的是官腔冷冰冰的數字。民眾打開手機依然收到一堆詐騙簡訊，絲毫感受不到生活有任何的改變，難道這就是溫暖內閣想傳遞的暖意嗎？還是寒意？我想對民眾來說，每天接到詐騙集團的電話跟簡訊真的變成我們的新日常，我想名副其實的溫暖內閣必須苦民所苦，以民眾為出發點。我真的是真心請教院長，您認為詐騙受害者為什麼會被騙？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這裡面有二個原因，我們現在要防詐，有有四個部分要努力，一個就是識詐，第二個就是堵詐，第三個是阻詐，第四個是懲詐。"],["葛委員如鈞：我說的是為什麼民眾會被騙？你說的是防炸。"],["陳院長建仁：我想就是詐騙集團的手法翻陳出新，然後民眾本身的警覺不夠。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，很好。我想院長，第一，我們真的是要有同理心，警覺不夠，可能人民辨別不出來，這真的不是人民的問題，同時詐騙集團的方案推陳出新，我們的法令跟打詐的方法當然要比它更新啊！我們來看一下，既然您沒有辦法真確的理解民眾為什麼會被騙，我這裡有個案件想要請您實際確認一下，哪個是假的？何者為真？何者為假？哪個是假的？我們來看一下，聲音麻煩一下，謝謝。","（播放影片）"],["葛委員如鈞：我們重新看一次，哪個是假的？","（播放影片）"],["葛委員如鈞：請教院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得右邊的好像比較像真的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，很抱歉，兩個都是假的，全部都是AI生成，院長，我想民眾之所以會被詐騙，真正的原因……"],["陳院長建仁：你做圈套騙我嘛！這樣有意思嗎？"],["葛委員如鈞：我說哪個是假的啊！我沒有說哪一個啊！"],["陳院長建仁：那這樣有意思嗎？"],["葛委員如鈞：我想要說的就是民眾真的很難分辨……"],["陳院長建仁：這樣子欺騙我，我實在是很難接受……"],["葛委員如鈞：院長真的是非常優秀的科學家……"],["陳院長建仁：詐騙的問題……"],["葛委員如鈞：都要看得這麼仔細，都沒有辦法完全分辨……"],["陳院長建仁：這是詐騙的問題……"],["葛委員如鈞：還要說民眾沒辦法分辨是民眾的問題，那民眾就都不要分辨好了啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你就詐騙的問題啊！你詐騙啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：院長，所以就是詐騙集團的問題跟民眾的問題，你們都沒有做錯事嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：所以你是詐騙者啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：我們認為民眾之所以被詐騙，最重要的原因是真的沒有辦法分辨啦！所以詐騙集團的這些案件暴風式的成長，簡訊的網址我看到了，我們可能連專家都沒有辦法分辨哪一個是詐騙網址，所以我們真的很需要政府的幫忙，事實上我們的政府是怎麼來幫忙的呢？我們來看一下，NCC的YouTube帳號三個禮拜前最新上傳了二個影片，我們政府防詐的作法就是建議民眾IOS的系統用戶關閉iMessage，Android的用戶關閉RCS，難道這就是用數位科技打詐的作法嗎？還是最有感的內閣嗎？你們要人民感覺什麼？感覺很差啦！","我先簡單介紹一下，為什麼人民感受很差，好不好？我們看一下，這二種通訊服務根據調查，我是真的想要來交流，我相信唐鳳部長也很清楚，根據調查，2021年iMessage在全球有13億活躍用戶，每秒發送超過20萬條訊息，並且在COVID-19大流行期間，使用率增加了30%。另外，RCS的服務根據統計，2023年全球用戶突破10億，而民眾關閉這二種通訊服務，不是在阻詐，而是在阻隔世界，等同於讓臺灣變成一座訊息孤島，由此可見，政府處理事情的邏輯到底是不是都是這樣？發生食安問題就扯到國人愛吃辣；難以禁止辣椒粉進口就把責任推到民眾身上；詐騙集團廣發簡訊就是要求大家關閉iMessage、RCS，所謂的防詐五步驟，要求民眾不聽、不接、不點、不傳、不信。不好意思，民眾真的是很傷心、很難過、很寒冷，最好考慮是不是乾脆不要用手機？免得到時候又說我們民眾愛用手機、愛上網。所以我想真的是要接地氣，站在民眾的角度設想，這個部分我們是不是能夠來加強？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，基本上來講，我們提醒民眾這邊也是提升他的防詐意識。在整個科技的使用上，的確也有數位落差的情況，有一些我們就可以看得出來，如果不常用像iMessage或RCS這種功能的，我們會建議他把它關閉，並不是不要去用這個所謂的功能，而是儘量減少接觸，比較能減少被騙的機會。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。不好意思，先打斷，剛好我也是在教育文化委員會，希望未來還能跟您持續交流。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來剛好唐鳳部長也在這裡了，我想資通要安心，資通安全也很重要，依據現行的資安法，公務機關或特定非公務機關發生資安事件的時候，要進行通報，資安事件分成四級，最輕微是第一級，最嚴重是第四級，請教一下院長，去年一整年公務機關或特定非公務機關共發生了幾件最嚴重的，也就是第四級的資安事件？"],["陳院長建仁：應該沒有第四級的事件。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好！目前千鈞一髮，還好沒有，0件。但是光第三級的案件就有63件，占總通報件數將近6%，到第四級已經是動搖國本了，幸好還沒有，但是我們想要來看一下，以近年來教育部發生火燒機房的事件為例，該案被界定為三級資安事件，距離動搖國本真的只有一步之遙，但是事情發生以後，教育部卻連火災原因都沒有積極瞭解，直到我的辦公室詢問了，教育部才開始簽辦，並且急忙在我質詢以後，發文給臺北市消防局確認火災原因。今天已經3月19日了，至今我們還沒有看到起火的原因跟調查的結果，實地考察火災現場，起火點距離UPS不斷電系統非常接近，一牆之隔，全部都是電池，在那個牆上如果再延燒下去，很可能不只是火災，甚至會引發爆炸，連主機都可能會炸掉，過去在2013年就有發生過類似的事，是企業發生這樣的事。這一次真的是抱持僥倖心態、態度鬆散，我們還看到很多的企業都還會被入侵，公務機關還有這種火災的問題，請教院長，政府是不是有統計、追蹤，去年一年臺灣共發生多少件企業遭駭客入侵的資安事件？"],["陳院長建仁：這一個統計……"],["唐部長鳳：跟委員報告，如果是以我們公部門的來計算，以及TWCERT/CC的來計算，以我目前掌握的，大概是上千件左右。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。我想數位部的回答很好，希望提供相關資料，而且要跨部會的來分享。我可以告訴院長，我們詢問過警政署，我們也在這幾天發文詢問數位部，答案都是沒有相關統計，結果部長知道的可能比數位部還多，事實上，上櫃公司依據現行法規，必要的時候是要發布重大訊息的，所以顯然政府沒有掌握，對相關企業被駭的狀況沒有掌握，如何進一步帶領企業來強化資安呢？分配資安預算的時候，大家都負責資安，人人都有份；發生企業被駭、發生重大資安事件的時候，人人都踢皮球、人人都無關，都說不屬於我的權責範圍。","所以我們來看一下，這四個單位的業務職掌，請院長告訴我們哪一個是行政院資安會報的業務職掌項目？這個是不是比打詐的分辨還難分辨？沒錯，我相信真的很難，因為看起來幾乎完全一樣，但是我們有一堆的單位在做，要解決資安問題真的不是靠成立一堆組織，也要有健全的法規制度，才能夠讓政府單位、民間有規則可循。數位部111年8月27日成立到現在，已經超過了一年半，但是翻開我們現在的資通安全管理法，主管機關還是寫著行政院，數位部在資安管理上到底有沒有能力扮演角色？我相信部長很有心，我就替部長來請問院長，資通安全管理法目前已經送到行政院，院長是不是可以承諾在520以前將這部法案送到立法院來審查，我們相信你們是暖心內閣，你們也不是看守內閣，而是在看守人民的錢包、看守人民的幸福感，可不可以在520以前送進來？"],["陳院長建仁：這要看我們在行政院審議的狀況，目前還在審議的過程，因為詳細的內容我不是很清楚，所以我要看……"],["葛委員如鈞：每分每秒都有駭客在入侵。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["葛委員如鈞：每分每秒都有像剛剛這樣分辨不清的影片，每一秒有20萬則的iMessage，520以前可不可以送進來？"],["陳院長建仁：這個要看審議的程度、進度，如果是會後我可以跟您報告審議的狀況是怎麼樣，現在我沒有辦法跟你講任何的訊息，因為我根本不曉得審議的進度是怎麼樣，這是事實。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想真的很謝謝今天有這樣的機會，打詐、防詐真的是全民課題，雖然說全球都有這樣子的困擾跟趨勢……"],["陳院長建仁：而且更嚴重。"],["葛委員如鈞：這個是不是要提出一些範例出來？"],["陳院長建仁：像新加坡，新加坡的例子就是更嚴重。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們臺灣0.9%的GDP被騙走了，日本是0.3%。"],["陳院長建仁：新加坡更嚴重。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們是要跟最嚴重的比嗎，院長？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不是，但是你在講全世界的時候，我就要告訴你全世界的狀況。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們有這麼優秀的部長、主管機關，我們有這麼多資安防範……"],["陳院長建仁：你不是要瞭解全世界的狀況嗎？"],["葛委員如鈞：要不要倒回去看剛剛的那個投影片？"],["陳院長建仁：我們要不要去瞭解全世界的狀況，跟人家學習、一起討論……"],["葛委員如鈞：臺灣是不是科技之島？"],["陳院長建仁：是，但還是有學習的地方。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們有晶片的時候就說TSMC好棒棒，就說我們的人才很棒。"],["陳院長建仁：確實是棒棒啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：等到遇到防詐、打詐的時候我們就說，我們跟最爛的比起來好一點啦！這樣是我們的態度嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然不是，但很重要的，國際上在打詐的這些問題上，都面臨到很大的考驗。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們數位很強、科技很強，院長，我們一起努力來做全球打詐、防詐領頭羊，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：很好，我也同意。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想對於打詐，希望……"],["陳院長建仁：但是不要有任何的抹黑。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們不要抹黑，我們都是事實。"],["陳院長建仁：不見得是事實。"],["葛委員如鈞：對於打擊詐騙，希望行政院可以更接地氣、更有同理心。同理心真的非常重要……"],["陳院長建仁：我也同意。"],["葛委員如鈞：人民的心是肉做的，院長的心也是肉做的，我們都心心相連，我們希望用同理心來接地氣解決這個問題。阻詐的責任真的不在民眾，防詐不力真的不在於詐騙集團太強，我們的政府、我們的唐鳳部長是天才部長，我們一定要一起努力好不好？不要只是呼籲民眾不聽、不接、不點、不傳、不信，而是應該依據普遍的實際情況，運用科技數位的量能來幫助民眾瞭解有什麼方法可以辨別真假，在資安的議題上，政府面向、產業面向我們都要一起來因應、一起來協助。最後呼籲院長，陳院長，拜託在520以前儘快把資通安全管理法送到立法院，我們在這裡等您啊！無論是否為看守內閣，國家重要政策還是應該要積極推動，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第4號林委員憶君質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱志偉","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","林德福","吳春城","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞","麥玉珍","葉元之","張嘉郡","范雲","陳秀寳","林倩綺","鄭正鈐","張雅琳","王美惠","廖偉翔","陳俊宇","林憶君","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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\"end\": 908.001, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 908.001, \"end\": 908.021, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鈞\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:18,769 --> 00:00:22,897\n主席,有請行政院陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備選。\n\n2\n00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:46,604\n很高興一天可以跟您見面兩次。我也是。院長您之前在答詢其他委員的答覆的時候曾經表示過臺股上兩萬點非常值得高興。3月8日您的臉書也很科學地用數字表示從105年到現在臺灣股市的漲幅142%\n\n3\n00:00:50,365 --> 00:00:55,687\n代表臺灣的經濟穩健的發展我這邊有一個產業類別的營運現況想請教一下這個營運金額10年成長163%說實話真的是很高105年來臺股漲幅142%還要更高我們是不是可以給這樣的一個幸福企業給他喊一聲加油好不好\n\n4\n00:01:12,795 --> 00:01:36,372\n這是打詐的企業啦。我們應該要認真的把打詐的工作做好。但是在112年的時候呢,基本上呢,我們那一年主黨的這個詐騙的金額還有從這個詐騙集團取回來的這個錢大概有140幾億啦。謝謝,但是黑數很多都還沒算進去。媒體也報導將0.9%的GDP都賠在裡面了。\n\n5\n00:01:40,015 --> 00:02:01,432\n我相信整體來講我們大家都很遺憾這並不是什麼企業或產業的營運成果這是詐騙集團每一年造成人民血汗錢的損失也是詐騙集團的營收十年來從33.8億增加到88.8億如果以111年的百大企業營收排名來講居然可以排到台灣百大企業當中\n\n6\n00:02:02,173 --> 00:02:30,625\n我想請教一下就是院長臺灣的詐騙案件數,詐騙案件數逐年攀升從110年的2萬4千多件暴增到112年將近3萬8千件增幅高達54%您就任以來自許為溫暖內閣但民眾看到這件事真的是不會感到溫暖可能只會憤怒或傷心這些資料來自警政署還不包含沒有報案的數量\n\n7\n00:02:31,585 --> 00:02:49,598\n院長曾經表示打詐需要繼續加強但是已經有蠻多成果這是您所說的話但實際瀏覽行政院的網站羅列各種打詐數據打詐成效的部分還提到國際詐騙電話部分從112年的5080萬通下降到1503萬通其中886開頭的國際來話數量至最高112年的1600萬通持續下降到84萬通我們先不管886明明就是台灣的號碼\n\n8\n00:03:00,206 --> 00:03:26,174\n為什麼會變成國際來話我們先不管這些但是我們感覺到的是關槍冷冰冰的數字民眾打開手機依然收到一堆詐騙簡訊絲毫感受不到生活有任何的改變難道這就是溫暖內閣想傳遞的暖意嗎還是寒意我想對民眾來說每天接到詐騙集團的電話跟簡訊真的變成我們的新日常我想民富其實的溫暖內閣必須苦民所苦以民眾為出發點\n\n9\n00:03:27,754 --> 00:03:33,249\n我想真的是真心請教院長您認為詐騙受害者\n\n10\n00:03:34,125 --> 00:03:34,485\n為什麼會被騙\n\n11\n00:03:58,803 --> 00:04:23,092\n我想院長第一我們真的是要有同理心警覺不夠可能人民辨別不出來這真的不是人民的問題同時詐騙集團的方案推陳出新我們的法律跟打仗的方法當然要比他更新我們來看一下既然您沒有辦法正確的理解民眾為什麼被騙我這裡有個案件想要請您實際確認一下\n\n12\n00:04:24,551 --> 00:04:29,620\n哪個是假的?何者為真?何者為假?哪個是假的?我們來看一下。聲音麻煩一下,謝謝。\n\n13\n00:04:36,021 --> 00:04:37,182\n我們重新看一次啦!哪個是假的?\n\n14\n00:04:56,125 --> 00:05:15,382\n現在這段影片是我親自錄製的,透過錄影來跟大家確認,每一段話都是我親自說的,絕對不是AI生成的詐騙影片。請教院長。我覺得右邊的好像比較像真的。好,謝謝喔。很抱歉,兩個都是假的,全部都是AI生成的喔。\n\n15\n00:05:15,962 --> 00:05:42,677\n院長我想民眾之所以會被詐騙,真正的原因,真正我是哪個是假的啊,我沒有說哪一個啊,我想要說的就是民眾真的很難分辨,院長真的是非常優秀的科學家,都要看得這麼仔細,都沒有辦法完全分辨,還要說民眾沒辦法分辨是民眾的問題,那民眾就都不要分辨好了啊。\n\n16\n00:05:43,358 --> 00:05:48,010\n你這是詐騙的問題啊!你就是詐騙啊!所以就是詐騙集團的問題跟民眾的問題?我們都沒有做錯事嗎?\n\n17\n00:05:51,516 --> 00:06:14,399\n我們認為民眾之所以被詐騙最重要的原因是真的沒有辦法分辨啦所以詐騙集團的這些案件暴風式的成長簡訊的網址我看到了我們可能連專家都沒有辦法分辨哪一個是詐騙網址啊所以我們真的很需要政府的幫忙所以呢事實上我們的政府是怎麼來幫忙的呢我們來看一下\n\n18\n00:06:15,322 --> 00:06:17,603\n我先簡單介紹一下為什麼人民感受很差好不好\n\n19\n00:06:43,797 --> 00:06:51,214\n我們看一下這兩種通訊服務根據調查我是真的想要來交流我相信唐鳳部長也很清楚\n\n20\n00:06:51,943 --> 00:07:19,789\n根據調查2021年iMessage在全球有13億活躍用戶每秒發送20萬條訊息並且在COVID-19大流行期間使用率增加了30%另外的RCS的服務根據統計2023年全球用戶突破10億而民眾關閉這兩種通訊服務不是在主詐而是在阻隔世界等同於讓台灣變成一座訊息孤島由此可見政府處理事情的邏輯\n\n21\n00:07:20,689 --> 00:07:39,856\n到底是不是都是這樣,發生食安問題就扯到國人愛吃辣,難以禁止辣椒粉進口,就把責任推到民眾身上,詐騙集團廣發簡訊,就是要求大家關閉iMessage、RCS,所謂的防詐誤步驟,要求民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信。\n\n22\n00:07:41,630 --> 00:07:57,579\n不好意思,這個民眾真的是很傷心、很難過、很寒冷。最好考慮是不是乾脆不要用手機。到時候又說我們民眾愛用手機、愛上網。所以我想真的是要接地氣、站在民眾的角度、設想。這個我們是不是能夠來加強。\n\n23\n00:08:00,062 --> 00:08:27,424\n報告委員基本上來講的話我們提醒民眾這邊也是提升他的防詐意識報告委員在整個我們科技的使用上的確也有數位落差的這個情況有一些我們就可以看得出來就是說如果不常用像MSG或RCS這種功能的我們會建議他把它關閉啦並不是說不要去用這個所謂的功能而是說盡量減少接觸不要減少被騙的機會好謝謝不好意思打斷剛好我也是在教育文化委員會\n\n24\n00:08:28,024 --> 00:08:56,742\n希望未來還能跟您持續交流。我想接下來剛好唐鳳部長也在這裡了。我想資通要安心,資通安全也很重要。依據現行的資安法,公務機關或特定非公務機關發生資安事件的時候要進行通報。資安事件分成四級,最輕為第一級,最嚴重是第四級。想請教一下院長,去年一整年公務機關或特定非公務機關共發生了幾件,最嚴重的也就是第四級的資安事件。\n\n25\n00:08:58,880 --> 00:08:59,805\n應該沒有第4級的事件。\n\n26\n00:09:00,742 --> 00:09:28,724\n好很好目前先軍一法還好沒有零件但是呢雖然說光第三集的案件就有63件占總通報件數將近6%到第四集已經是動搖國本了幸好還沒有但是呢我們想要來看一下以近年來教育部發生火燒機房的事件為例該案被界定為三級資安事件距離動搖國本真的只有一步之遙\n\n27\n00:09:29,545 --> 00:09:46,642\n但是事情發生以後教育部卻連火災原因都沒有積極了解直到我的辦公室詢問了教育部才開始簽辦並且急忙在我執訊以後發文臺北市消防局確認火災原因我們今天已經3月19號了至今我們還沒有看到\n\n28\n00:09:50,124 --> 00:10:12,940\n實地考察火災現場起火點距離UPS不斷電系統非常接近一牆之隔全部都是電池在那個牆上如果再延燒下去很可能不只是火災甚至會引發爆炸連主機都可能會炸掉這個過去在2013年就有發生過類似的事情是7月發生這樣的事這一次真的是抱持僥倖心態態度鬆散\n\n29\n00:10:14,941 --> 00:10:42,834\n我們還看到很多的企業都還會被入侵公務機關還有這種火災的問題請教院長政府是不是有統計追蹤去年一年臺灣共發生多少件企業遭駭客入侵的資安事件這一個統計跟委員報告我們這個如果是以我們公部門的來計算的話以及TW3CC的來計算的話以我目前掌握應該是大概上千件左右\n\n30\n00:10:43,715 --> 00:11:07,754\n好謝謝我想數位部的回答很好希望提供相關資料而且要跨部會的來分享我可以告訴院長我們詢問過警政署也過去我們也在這幾天發文詢問數位部答案都是沒有相關統計結果部長知道的可能比數位部還多事實上上櫃公司依據現行法規必要的時候是要發布重大訊息的所以顯然政府沒有掌握\n\n31\n00:11:08,474 --> 00:11:33,453\n對相關企業被害的狀況沒有掌握,如何進一步帶領企業來強化資安呢?分配資安預算的時候,大家都負責資安,人人都有份。發生企業被害,發生重大資安事件的時候,人人都踢皮球,人人都無關,都說不屬於我的權責範圍。所以事實上我們來看一下,這幾個四個單位的業務執掌,請院長告訴我們哪一個是行政院資安匯報的業務執掌項目?\n\n32\n00:11:37,566 --> 00:12:06,351\n這是不是比打詐的分辨還難分辨啊?沒錯,我相信真的很難因為看起來幾乎完全一樣但是我們有一堆的單位在做要解決治安問題真的不是靠成立一堆組織也要有健全的法規制度才能夠讓政府單位民間有規則可循數位部111年8月27號成立到現在已經超過了一年半但是翻開我們現在的知通安全管理法\n\n33\n00:12:07,071 --> 00:12:23,429\n不管機關還是寫著行政院數位部在治安管理上到底有沒有能力扮演角色我相信部長很有心我就替部長來請問院長資通安全管理法目前已經送到行政院院長是不是可以承諾\n\n34\n00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:36,605\n在520以前將這部法案送到立法院來審查我們相信你們是暖心內閣你們也不是看守內閣你們是看守人民的錢包看守人民的幸福感可不可以在520以前送進來\n\n35\n00:12:37,762 --> 00:12:44,831\n每分每秒都有駭客在入侵每分每秒都有像剛剛這樣分辨不清的影片每一秒有20萬則的iMessage\n\n36\n00:12:55,905 --> 00:13:23,099\n五二零以前可不可以送進來這個要看審議的程度的進度如果會後我可以跟你報告審議的狀況現在我沒有辦法跟你講任何的訊息因為我根本不曉得審議的進度是怎麼樣我想啊真的是今天很謝謝有這樣的機會那打詐防詐真的是全民客體雖然說全球都有這樣子的困擾跟趨勢而且更嚴重\n\n37\n00:13:25,384 --> 00:13:30,772\n這個是不是要提出一些範例出來我們台灣0.9%的GDP被騙走了日本是0.3%新加坡更嚴重\n\n38\n00:13:36,271 --> 00:13:36,992\n台灣是不是科技之島?\n\n39\n00:13:56,152 --> 00:13:56,772\n我也同意\n\n40\n00:14:25,392 --> 00:14:47,725\n對於打擊詐騙希望行政院可以更接地氣更有同理心同理心真的非常重要人民的心是肉做的院長的心也是肉做的我們都心心相連我們希望有同理心來解決接地氣解決這個問題\n\n41\n00:14:48,886 --> 00:15:07,060\n主詐的責任真的不在民眾防詐不利真的不在於詐騙集團太強我們的政府我們的唐鳳部長是天才部長啊我們一定一起努力好不好不要只是呼籲民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信而是應該依據普遍的實際情況\n\n42\n00:15:07,961 --> 00:15:08,021\n好,謝謝葛如鈞\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n18769\t22897\t主席,有請行政院陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備選。\n30540\t46604\t很高興一天可以跟您見面兩次。我也是。院長您之前在答詢其他委員的答覆的時候曾經表示過臺股上兩萬點非常值得高興。3月8日您的臉書也很科學地用數字表示從105年到現在臺灣股市的漲幅142%\n50365\t55687\t代表臺灣的經濟穩健的發展我這邊有一個產業類別的營運現況想請教一下這個營運金額10年成長163%說實話真的是很高105年來臺股漲幅142%還要更高我們是不是可以給這樣的一個幸福企業給他喊一聲加油好不好\n72795\t96372\t這是打詐的企業啦。我們應該要認真的把打詐的工作做好。但是在112年的時候呢,基本上呢,我們那一年主黨的這個詐騙的金額還有從這個詐騙集團取回來的這個錢大概有140幾億啦。謝謝,但是黑數很多都還沒算進去。媒體也報導將0.9%的GDP都賠在裡面了。\n100015\t121432\t我相信整體來講我們大家都很遺憾這並不是什麼企業或產業的營運成果這是詐騙集團每一年造成人民血汗錢的損失也是詐騙集團的營收十年來從33.8億增加到88.8億如果以111年的百大企業營收排名來講居然可以排到台灣百大企業當中\n122173\t150625\t我想請教一下就是院長臺灣的詐騙案件數,詐騙案件數逐年攀升從110年的2萬4千多件暴增到112年將近3萬8千件增幅高達54%您就任以來自許為溫暖內閣但民眾看到這件事真的是不會感到溫暖可能只會憤怒或傷心這些資料來自警政署還不包含沒有報案的數量\n151585\t169598\t院長曾經表示打詐需要繼續加強但是已經有蠻多成果這是您所說的話但實際瀏覽行政院的網站羅列各種打詐數據打詐成效的部分還提到國際詐騙電話部分從112年的5080萬通下降到1503萬通其中886開頭的國際來話數量至最高112年的1600萬通持續下降到84萬通我們先不管886明明就是台灣的號碼\n180206\t206174\t為什麼會變成國際來話我們先不管這些但是我們感覺到的是關槍冷冰冰的數字民眾打開手機依然收到一堆詐騙簡訊絲毫感受不到生活有任何的改變難道這就是溫暖內閣想傳遞的暖意嗎還是寒意我想對民眾來說每天接到詐騙集團的電話跟簡訊真的變成我們的新日常我想民富其實的溫暖內閣必須苦民所苦以民眾為出發點\n207754\t213249\t我想真的是真心請教院長您認為詐騙受害者\n214125\t214485\t為什麼會被騙\n238803\t263092\t我想 院長第一我們真的是要有同理心警覺不夠可能人民辨別不出來這真的不是人民的問題同時詐騙集團的方案推陳出新我們的法律跟打仗的方法當然要比他更新我們來看一下既然您沒有辦法正確的理解民眾為什麼被騙我這裡有個案件想要請您實際確認一下\n264551\t269620\t哪個是假的?何者為真?何者為假?哪個是假的?我們來看一下。聲音麻煩一下,謝謝。\n276021\t277182\t我們重新看一次啦!哪個是假的?\n296125\t315382\t現在這段影片是我親自錄製的,透過錄影來跟大家確認,每一段話都是我親自說的,絕對不是AI生成的詐騙影片。請教院長。我覺得右邊的好像比較像真的。好,謝謝喔。很抱歉,兩個都是假的,全部都是AI生成的喔。\n315962\t342677\t院長我想民眾之所以會被詐騙,真正的原因,真正我是哪個是假的啊,我沒有說哪一個啊,我想要說的就是民眾真的很難分辨,院長真的是非常優秀的科學家,都要看得這麼仔細,都沒有辦法完全分辨,還要說民眾沒辦法分辨是民眾的問題,那民眾就都不要分辨好了啊。\n343358\t348010\t你這是詐騙的問題啊!你就是詐騙啊!所以就是詐騙集團的問題跟民眾的問題?我們都沒有做錯事嗎?\n351516\t374399\t我們認為民眾之所以被詐騙最重要的原因是真的沒有辦法分辨啦所以詐騙集團的這些案件暴風式的成長簡訊的網址我看到了我們可能連專家都沒有辦法分辨哪一個是詐騙網址啊所以我們真的很需要政府的幫忙所以呢事實上我們的政府是怎麼來幫忙的呢我們來看一下\n375322\t377603\t我先簡單介紹一下為什麼人民感受很差好不好\n403797\t411214\t我們看一下這兩種通訊服務根據調查我是真的想要來交流我相信唐鳳部長也很清楚\n411943\t439789\t根據調查2021年iMessage在全球有13億活躍用戶每秒發送20萬條訊息並且在COVID-19大流行期間使用率增加了30%另外的RCS的服務根據統計2023年全球用戶突破10億而民眾關閉這兩種通訊服務不是在主詐而是在阻隔世界等同於讓台灣變成一座訊息孤島由此可見政府處理事情的邏輯\n440689\t459856\t到底是不是都是這樣,發生食安問題就扯到國人愛吃辣,難以禁止辣椒粉進口,就把責任推到民眾身上,詐騙集團廣發簡訊,就是要求大家關閉iMessage、RCS,所謂的防詐誤步驟,要求民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信。\n461630\t477579\t不好意思,這個民眾真的是很傷心、很難過、很寒冷。最好考慮是不是乾脆不要用手機。到時候又說我們民眾愛用手機、愛上網。所以我想真的是要接地氣、站在民眾的角度、設想。這個我們是不是能夠來加強。\n480062\t507424\t報告委員基本上來講的話我們提醒民眾這邊也是提升他的防詐意識報告委員在整個我們科技的使用上的確也有數位落差的這個情況有一些我們就可以看得出來就是說如果不常用像MSG或RCS這種功能的我們會建議他把它關閉啦並不是說不要去用這個所謂的功能而是說盡量減少接觸不要減少被騙的機會好 謝謝不好意思打斷剛好我也是在教育文化委員會\n508024\t536742\t希望未來還能跟您持續交流。我想接下來剛好唐鳳部長也在這裡了。我想資通要安心,資通安全也很重要。依據現行的資安法,公務機關或特定非公務機關發生資安事件的時候要進行通報。資安事件分成四級,最輕為第一級,最嚴重是第四級。想請教一下院長,去年一整年公務機關或特定非公務機關共發生了幾件,最嚴重的也就是第四級的資安事件。\n538880\t539805\t應該沒有第4級的事件。\n540742\t568724\t好很好目前先軍一法還好沒有零件但是呢雖然說光第三集的案件就有63件占總通報件數將近6%到第四集已經是動搖國本了幸好還沒有但是呢我們想要來看一下以近年來教育部發生火燒機房的事件為例該案被界定為三級資安事件距離動搖國本真的只有一步之遙\n569545\t586642\t但是事情發生以後教育部卻連火災原因都沒有積極了解直到我的辦公室詢問了教育部才開始簽辦並且急忙在我執訊以後發文臺北市消防局確認火災原因我們今天已經3月19號了至今我們還沒有看到\n590124\t612940\t實地考察火災現場起火點距離UPS不斷電系統非常接近一牆之隔全部都是電池在那個牆上如果再延燒下去很可能不只是火災甚至會引發爆炸連主機都可能會炸掉這個過去在2013年就有發生過類似的事情是7月發生這樣的事這一次真的是抱持僥倖心態態度鬆散\n614941\t642834\t我們還看到很多的企業都還會被入侵公務機關還有這種火災的問題請教院長政府是不是有統計追蹤去年一年臺灣共發生多少件企業遭駭客入侵的資安事件這一個統計跟委員報告我們這個如果是以我們公部門的來計算的話以及TW3CC的來計算的話以我目前掌握應該是大概上千件左右\n643715\t667754\t好 謝謝我想數位部的回答很好希望提供相關資料而且要跨部會的來分享我可以告訴院長我們詢問過警政署也過去我們也在這幾天發文詢問數位部答案都是沒有相關統計結果部長知道的可能比數位部還多事實上上櫃公司依據現行法規必要的時候是要發布重大訊息的所以顯然政府沒有掌握\n668474\t693453\t對相關企業被害的狀況沒有掌握,如何進一步帶領企業來強化資安呢?分配資安預算的時候,大家都負責資安,人人都有份。發生企業被害,發生重大資安事件的時候,人人都踢皮球,人人都無關,都說不屬於我的權責範圍。所以事實上我們來看一下,這幾個四個單位的業務執掌,請院長告訴我們哪一個是行政院資安匯報的業務執掌項目?\n697566\t726351\t這是不是比打詐的分辨還難分辨啊?沒錯,我相信真的很難因為看起來幾乎完全一樣但是我們有一堆的單位在做要解決治安問題真的不是靠成立一堆組織也要有健全的法規制度才能夠讓政府單位民間有規則可循數位部111年8月27號成立到現在已經超過了一年半但是翻開我們現在的知通安全管理法\n727071\t743429\t不管機關還是寫著行政院數位部在治安管理上到底有沒有能力扮演角色我相信部長很有心我就替部長來請問院長資通安全管理法目前已經送到行政院院長是不是可以承諾\n744150\t756605\t在520以前將這部法案送到立法院來審查我們相信你們是暖心內閣你們也不是看守內閣你們是看守人民的錢包看守人民的幸福感可不可以在520以前送進來\n757762\t764831\t每分每秒都有駭客在入侵每分每秒都有像剛剛這樣分辨不清的影片每一秒有20萬則的iMessage\n775905\t803099\t五二零以前可不可以送進來這個要看審議的程度的進度如果會後我可以跟你報告審議的狀況現在我沒有辦法跟你講任何的訊息因為我根本不曉得審議的進度是怎麼樣我想啊真的是今天很謝謝有這樣的機會那打詐防詐真的是全民客體雖然說全球都有這樣子的困擾跟趨勢而且更嚴重\n805384\t810772\t這個是不是要提出一些範例出來我們台灣0.9%的GDP被騙走了日本是0.3%新加坡更嚴重\n816271\t816992\t台灣是不是科技之島?\n836152\t836772\t我也同意\n865392\t887725\t對於打擊詐騙希望行政院可以更接地氣更有同理心同理心真的非常重要人民的心是肉做的院長的心也是肉做的我們都心心相連我們希望有同理心來解決接地氣解決這個問題\n888886\t907060\t主詐的責任真的不在民眾防詐不利真的不在於詐騙集團太強我們的政府我們的唐鳳部長是天才部長啊我們一定一起努力好不好不要只是呼籲民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信而是應該依據普遍的實際情況\n907961\t908021\t好,謝謝葛如鈞\n","txt":"主席,有請行政院陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備選。\n很高興一天可以跟您見面兩次。我也是。院長您之前在答詢其他委員的答覆的時候曾經表示過臺股上兩萬點非常值得高興。3月8日您的臉書也很科學地用數字表示從105年到現在臺灣股市的漲幅142%\n代表臺灣的經濟穩健的發展我這邊有一個產業類別的營運現況想請教一下這個營運金額10年成長163%說實話真的是很高105年來臺股漲幅142%還要更高我們是不是可以給這樣的一個幸福企業給他喊一聲加油好不好\n這是打詐的企業啦。我們應該要認真的把打詐的工作做好。但是在112年的時候呢,基本上呢,我們那一年主黨的這個詐騙的金額還有從這個詐騙集團取回來的這個錢大概有140幾億啦。謝謝,但是黑數很多都還沒算進去。媒體也報導將0.9%的GDP都賠在裡面了。\n我相信整體來講我們大家都很遺憾這並不是什麼企業或產業的營運成果這是詐騙集團每一年造成人民血汗錢的損失也是詐騙集團的營收十年來從33.8億增加到88.8億如果以111年的百大企業營收排名來講居然可以排到台灣百大企業當中\n我想請教一下就是院長臺灣的詐騙案件數,詐騙案件數逐年攀升從110年的2萬4千多件暴增到112年將近3萬8千件增幅高達54%您就任以來自許為溫暖內閣但民眾看到這件事真的是不會感到溫暖可能只會憤怒或傷心這些資料來自警政署還不包含沒有報案的數量\n院長曾經表示打詐需要繼續加強但是已經有蠻多成果這是您所說的話但實際瀏覽行政院的網站羅列各種打詐數據打詐成效的部分還提到國際詐騙電話部分從112年的5080萬通下降到1503萬通其中886開頭的國際來話數量至最高112年的1600萬通持續下降到84萬通我們先不管886明明就是台灣的號碼\n為什麼會變成國際來話我們先不管這些但是我們感覺到的是關槍冷冰冰的數字民眾打開手機依然收到一堆詐騙簡訊絲毫感受不到生活有任何的改變難道這就是溫暖內閣想傳遞的暖意嗎還是寒意我想對民眾來說每天接到詐騙集團的電話跟簡訊真的變成我們的新日常我想民富其實的溫暖內閣必須苦民所苦以民眾為出發點\n我想真的是真心請教院長您認為詐騙受害者\n為什麼會被騙\n我想 院長第一我們真的是要有同理心警覺不夠可能人民辨別不出來這真的不是人民的問題同時詐騙集團的方案推陳出新我們的法律跟打仗的方法當然要比他更新我們來看一下既然您沒有辦法正確的理解民眾為什麼被騙我這裡有個案件想要請您實際確認一下\n哪個是假的?何者為真?何者為假?哪個是假的?我們來看一下。聲音麻煩一下,謝謝。\n我們重新看一次啦!哪個是假的?\n現在這段影片是我親自錄製的,透過錄影來跟大家確認,每一段話都是我親自說的,絕對不是AI生成的詐騙影片。請教院長。我覺得右邊的好像比較像真的。好,謝謝喔。很抱歉,兩個都是假的,全部都是AI生成的喔。\n院長我想民眾之所以會被詐騙,真正的原因,真正我是哪個是假的啊,我沒有說哪一個啊,我想要說的就是民眾真的很難分辨,院長真的是非常優秀的科學家,都要看得這麼仔細,都沒有辦法完全分辨,還要說民眾沒辦法分辨是民眾的問題,那民眾就都不要分辨好了啊。\n你這是詐騙的問題啊!你就是詐騙啊!所以就是詐騙集團的問題跟民眾的問題?我們都沒有做錯事嗎?\n我們認為民眾之所以被詐騙最重要的原因是真的沒有辦法分辨啦所以詐騙集團的這些案件暴風式的成長簡訊的網址我看到了我們可能連專家都沒有辦法分辨哪一個是詐騙網址啊所以我們真的很需要政府的幫忙所以呢事實上我們的政府是怎麼來幫忙的呢我們來看一下\n我先簡單介紹一下為什麼人民感受很差好不好\n我們看一下這兩種通訊服務根據調查我是真的想要來交流我相信唐鳳部長也很清楚\n根據調查2021年iMessage在全球有13億活躍用戶每秒發送20萬條訊息並且在COVID-19大流行期間使用率增加了30%另外的RCS的服務根據統計2023年全球用戶突破10億而民眾關閉這兩種通訊服務不是在主詐而是在阻隔世界等同於讓台灣變成一座訊息孤島由此可見政府處理事情的邏輯\n到底是不是都是這樣,發生食安問題就扯到國人愛吃辣,難以禁止辣椒粉進口,就把責任推到民眾身上,詐騙集團廣發簡訊,就是要求大家關閉iMessage、RCS,所謂的防詐誤步驟,要求民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信。\n不好意思,這個民眾真的是很傷心、很難過、很寒冷。最好考慮是不是乾脆不要用手機。到時候又說我們民眾愛用手機、愛上網。所以我想真的是要接地氣、站在民眾的角度、設想。這個我們是不是能夠來加強。\n報告委員基本上來講的話我們提醒民眾這邊也是提升他的防詐意識報告委員在整個我們科技的使用上的確也有數位落差的這個情況有一些我們就可以看得出來就是說如果不常用像MSG或RCS這種功能的我們會建議他把它關閉啦並不是說不要去用這個所謂的功能而是說盡量減少接觸不要減少被騙的機會好 謝謝不好意思打斷剛好我也是在教育文化委員會\n希望未來還能跟您持續交流。我想接下來剛好唐鳳部長也在這裡了。我想資通要安心,資通安全也很重要。依據現行的資安法,公務機關或特定非公務機關發生資安事件的時候要進行通報。資安事件分成四級,最輕為第一級,最嚴重是第四級。想請教一下院長,去年一整年公務機關或特定非公務機關共發生了幾件,最嚴重的也就是第四級的資安事件。\n應該沒有第4級的事件。\n好很好目前先軍一法還好沒有零件但是呢雖然說光第三集的案件就有63件占總通報件數將近6%到第四集已經是動搖國本了幸好還沒有但是呢我們想要來看一下以近年來教育部發生火燒機房的事件為例該案被界定為三級資安事件距離動搖國本真的只有一步之遙\n但是事情發生以後教育部卻連火災原因都沒有積極了解直到我的辦公室詢問了教育部才開始簽辦並且急忙在我執訊以後發文臺北市消防局確認火災原因我們今天已經3月19號了至今我們還沒有看到\n實地考察火災現場起火點距離UPS不斷電系統非常接近一牆之隔全部都是電池在那個牆上如果再延燒下去很可能不只是火災甚至會引發爆炸連主機都可能會炸掉這個過去在2013年就有發生過類似的事情是7月發生這樣的事這一次真的是抱持僥倖心態態度鬆散\n我們還看到很多的企業都還會被入侵公務機關還有這種火災的問題請教院長政府是不是有統計追蹤去年一年臺灣共發生多少件企業遭駭客入侵的資安事件這一個統計跟委員報告我們這個如果是以我們公部門的來計算的話以及TW3CC的來計算的話以我目前掌握應該是大概上千件左右\n好 謝謝我想數位部的回答很好希望提供相關資料而且要跨部會的來分享我可以告訴院長我們詢問過警政署也過去我們也在這幾天發文詢問數位部答案都是沒有相關統計結果部長知道的可能比數位部還多事實上上櫃公司依據現行法規必要的時候是要發布重大訊息的所以顯然政府沒有掌握\n對相關企業被害的狀況沒有掌握,如何進一步帶領企業來強化資安呢?分配資安預算的時候,大家都負責資安,人人都有份。發生企業被害,發生重大資安事件的時候,人人都踢皮球,人人都無關,都說不屬於我的權責範圍。所以事實上我們來看一下,這幾個四個單位的業務執掌,請院長告訴我們哪一個是行政院資安匯報的業務執掌項目?\n這是不是比打詐的分辨還難分辨啊?沒錯,我相信真的很難因為看起來幾乎完全一樣但是我們有一堆的單位在做要解決治安問題真的不是靠成立一堆組織也要有健全的法規制度才能夠讓政府單位民間有規則可循數位部111年8月27號成立到現在已經超過了一年半但是翻開我們現在的知通安全管理法\n不管機關還是寫著行政院數位部在治安管理上到底有沒有能力扮演角色我相信部長很有心我就替部長來請問院長資通安全管理法目前已經送到行政院院長是不是可以承諾\n在520以前將這部法案送到立法院來審查我們相信你們是暖心內閣你們也不是看守內閣你們是看守人民的錢包看守人民的幸福感可不可以在520以前送進來\n每分每秒都有駭客在入侵每分每秒都有像剛剛這樣分辨不清的影片每一秒有20萬則的iMessage\n五二零以前可不可以送進來這個要看審議的程度的進度如果會後我可以跟你報告審議的狀況現在我沒有辦法跟你講任何的訊息因為我根本不曉得審議的進度是怎麼樣我想啊真的是今天很謝謝有這樣的機會那打詐防詐真的是全民客體雖然說全球都有這樣子的困擾跟趨勢而且更嚴重\n這個是不是要提出一些範例出來我們台灣0.9%的GDP被騙走了日本是0.3%新加坡更嚴重\n台灣是不是科技之島?\n我也同意\n對於打擊詐騙希望行政院可以更接地氣更有同理心同理心真的非常重要人民的心是肉做的院長的心也是肉做的我們都心心相連我們希望有同理心來解決接地氣解決這個問題\n主詐的責任真的不在民眾防詐不利真的不在於詐騙集團太強我們的政府我們的唐鳳部長是天才部長啊我們一定一起努力好不好不要只是呼籲民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信而是應該依據普遍的實際情況\n好,謝謝葛如鈞\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:18.769 --> 00:22.897\n主席,有請行政院陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備選。\n\n00:30.540 --> 00:46.604\n很高興一天可以跟您見面兩次。我也是。院長您之前在答詢其他委員的答覆的時候曾經表示過臺股上兩萬點非常值得高興。3月8日您的臉書也很科學地用數字表示從105年到現在臺灣股市的漲幅142%\n\n00:50.365 --> 00:55.687\n代表臺灣的經濟穩健的發展我這邊有一個產業類別的營運現況想請教一下這個營運金額10年成長163%說實話真的是很高105年來臺股漲幅142%還要更高我們是不是可以給這樣的一個幸福企業給他喊一聲加油好不好\n\n01:12.795 --> 01:36.372\n這是打詐的企業啦。我們應該要認真的把打詐的工作做好。但是在112年的時候呢,基本上呢,我們那一年主黨的這個詐騙的金額還有從這個詐騙集團取回來的這個錢大概有140幾億啦。謝謝,但是黑數很多都還沒算進去。媒體也報導將0.9%的GDP都賠在裡面了。\n\n01:40.015 --> 02:01.432\n我相信整體來講我們大家都很遺憾這並不是什麼企業或產業的營運成果這是詐騙集團每一年造成人民血汗錢的損失也是詐騙集團的營收十年來從33.8億增加到88.8億如果以111年的百大企業營收排名來講居然可以排到台灣百大企業當中\n\n02:02.173 --> 02:30.625\n我想請教一下就是院長臺灣的詐騙案件數,詐騙案件數逐年攀升從110年的2萬4千多件暴增到112年將近3萬8千件增幅高達54%您就任以來自許為溫暖內閣但民眾看到這件事真的是不會感到溫暖可能只會憤怒或傷心這些資料來自警政署還不包含沒有報案的數量\n\n02:31.585 --> 02:49.598\n院長曾經表示打詐需要繼續加強但是已經有蠻多成果這是您所說的話但實際瀏覽行政院的網站羅列各種打詐數據打詐成效的部分還提到國際詐騙電話部分從112年的5080萬通下降到1503萬通其中886開頭的國際來話數量至最高112年的1600萬通持續下降到84萬通我們先不管886明明就是台灣的號碼\n\n03:00.206 --> 03:26.174\n為什麼會變成國際來話我們先不管這些但是我們感覺到的是關槍冷冰冰的數字民眾打開手機依然收到一堆詐騙簡訊絲毫感受不到生活有任何的改變難道這就是溫暖內閣想傳遞的暖意嗎還是寒意我想對民眾來說每天接到詐騙集團的電話跟簡訊真的變成我們的新日常我想民富其實的溫暖內閣必須苦民所苦以民眾為出發點\n\n03:27.754 --> 03:33.249\n我想真的是真心請教院長您認為詐騙受害者\n\n03:34.125 --> 03:34.485\n為什麼會被騙\n\n03:58.803 --> 04:23.092\n我想院長第一我們真的是要有同理心警覺不夠可能人民辨別不出來這真的不是人民的問題同時詐騙集團的方案推陳出新我們的法律跟打仗的方法當然要比他更新我們來看一下既然您沒有辦法正確的理解民眾為什麼被騙我這裡有個案件想要請您實際確認一下\n\n04:24.551 --> 04:29.620\n哪個是假的?何者為真?何者為假?哪個是假的?我們來看一下。聲音麻煩一下,謝謝。\n\n04:36.021 --> 04:37.182\n我們重新看一次啦!哪個是假的?\n\n04:56.125 --> 05:15.382\n現在這段影片是我親自錄製的,透過錄影來跟大家確認,每一段話都是我親自說的,絕對不是AI生成的詐騙影片。請教院長。我覺得右邊的好像比較像真的。好,謝謝喔。很抱歉,兩個都是假的,全部都是AI生成的喔。\n\n05:15.962 --> 05:42.677\n院長我想民眾之所以會被詐騙,真正的原因,真正我是哪個是假的啊,我沒有說哪一個啊,我想要說的就是民眾真的很難分辨,院長真的是非常優秀的科學家,都要看得這麼仔細,都沒有辦法完全分辨,還要說民眾沒辦法分辨是民眾的問題,那民眾就都不要分辨好了啊。\n\n05:43.358 --> 05:48.010\n你這是詐騙的問題啊!你就是詐騙啊!所以就是詐騙集團的問題跟民眾的問題?我們都沒有做錯事嗎?\n\n05:51.516 --> 06:14.399\n我們認為民眾之所以被詐騙最重要的原因是真的沒有辦法分辨啦所以詐騙集團的這些案件暴風式的成長簡訊的網址我看到了我們可能連專家都沒有辦法分辨哪一個是詐騙網址啊所以我們真的很需要政府的幫忙所以呢事實上我們的政府是怎麼來幫忙的呢我們來看一下\n\n06:15.322 --> 06:17.603\n我先簡單介紹一下為什麼人民感受很差好不好\n\n06:43.797 --> 06:51.214\n我們看一下這兩種通訊服務根據調查我是真的想要來交流我相信唐鳳部長也很清楚\n\n06:51.943 --> 07:19.789\n根據調查2021年iMessage在全球有13億活躍用戶每秒發送20萬條訊息並且在COVID-19大流行期間使用率增加了30%另外的RCS的服務根據統計2023年全球用戶突破10億而民眾關閉這兩種通訊服務不是在主詐而是在阻隔世界等同於讓台灣變成一座訊息孤島由此可見政府處理事情的邏輯\n\n07:20.689 --> 07:39.856\n到底是不是都是這樣,發生食安問題就扯到國人愛吃辣,難以禁止辣椒粉進口,就把責任推到民眾身上,詐騙集團廣發簡訊,就是要求大家關閉iMessage、RCS,所謂的防詐誤步驟,要求民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信。\n\n07:41.630 --> 07:57.579\n不好意思,這個民眾真的是很傷心、很難過、很寒冷。最好考慮是不是乾脆不要用手機。到時候又說我們民眾愛用手機、愛上網。所以我想真的是要接地氣、站在民眾的角度、設想。這個我們是不是能夠來加強。\n\n08:00.062 --> 08:27.424\n報告委員基本上來講的話我們提醒民眾這邊也是提升他的防詐意識報告委員在整個我們科技的使用上的確也有數位落差的這個情況有一些我們就可以看得出來就是說如果不常用像MSG或RCS這種功能的我們會建議他把它關閉啦並不是說不要去用這個所謂的功能而是說盡量減少接觸不要減少被騙的機會好謝謝不好意思打斷剛好我也是在教育文化委員會\n\n08:28.024 --> 08:56.742\n希望未來還能跟您持續交流。我想接下來剛好唐鳳部長也在這裡了。我想資通要安心,資通安全也很重要。依據現行的資安法,公務機關或特定非公務機關發生資安事件的時候要進行通報。資安事件分成四級,最輕為第一級,最嚴重是第四級。想請教一下院長,去年一整年公務機關或特定非公務機關共發生了幾件,最嚴重的也就是第四級的資安事件。\n\n08:58.880 --> 08:59.805\n應該沒有第4級的事件。\n\n09:00.742 --> 09:28.724\n好很好目前先軍一法還好沒有零件但是呢雖然說光第三集的案件就有63件占總通報件數將近6%到第四集已經是動搖國本了幸好還沒有但是呢我們想要來看一下以近年來教育部發生火燒機房的事件為例該案被界定為三級資安事件距離動搖國本真的只有一步之遙\n\n09:29.545 --> 09:46.642\n但是事情發生以後教育部卻連火災原因都沒有積極了解直到我的辦公室詢問了教育部才開始簽辦並且急忙在我執訊以後發文臺北市消防局確認火災原因我們今天已經3月19號了至今我們還沒有看到\n\n09:50.124 --> 10:12.940\n實地考察火災現場起火點距離UPS不斷電系統非常接近一牆之隔全部都是電池在那個牆上如果再延燒下去很可能不只是火災甚至會引發爆炸連主機都可能會炸掉這個過去在2013年就有發生過類似的事情是7月發生這樣的事這一次真的是抱持僥倖心態態度鬆散\n\n10:14.941 --> 10:42.834\n我們還看到很多的企業都還會被入侵公務機關還有這種火災的問題請教院長政府是不是有統計追蹤去年一年臺灣共發生多少件企業遭駭客入侵的資安事件這一個統計跟委員報告我們這個如果是以我們公部門的來計算的話以及TW3CC的來計算的話以我目前掌握應該是大概上千件左右\n\n10:43.715 --> 11:07.754\n好謝謝我想數位部的回答很好希望提供相關資料而且要跨部會的來分享我可以告訴院長我們詢問過警政署也過去我們也在這幾天發文詢問數位部答案都是沒有相關統計結果部長知道的可能比數位部還多事實上上櫃公司依據現行法規必要的時候是要發布重大訊息的所以顯然政府沒有掌握\n\n11:08.474 --> 11:33.453\n對相關企業被害的狀況沒有掌握,如何進一步帶領企業來強化資安呢?分配資安預算的時候,大家都負責資安,人人都有份。發生企業被害,發生重大資安事件的時候,人人都踢皮球,人人都無關,都說不屬於我的權責範圍。所以事實上我們來看一下,這幾個四個單位的業務執掌,請院長告訴我們哪一個是行政院資安匯報的業務執掌項目?\n\n11:37.566 --> 12:06.351\n這是不是比打詐的分辨還難分辨啊?沒錯,我相信真的很難因為看起來幾乎完全一樣但是我們有一堆的單位在做要解決治安問題真的不是靠成立一堆組織也要有健全的法規制度才能夠讓政府單位民間有規則可循數位部111年8月27號成立到現在已經超過了一年半但是翻開我們現在的知通安全管理法\n\n12:07.071 --> 12:23.429\n不管機關還是寫著行政院數位部在治安管理上到底有沒有能力扮演角色我相信部長很有心我就替部長來請問院長資通安全管理法目前已經送到行政院院長是不是可以承諾\n\n12:24.150 --> 12:36.605\n在520以前將這部法案送到立法院來審查我們相信你們是暖心內閣你們也不是看守內閣你們是看守人民的錢包看守人民的幸福感可不可以在520以前送進來\n\n12:37.762 --> 12:44.831\n每分每秒都有駭客在入侵每分每秒都有像剛剛這樣分辨不清的影片每一秒有20萬則的iMessage\n\n12:55.905 --> 13:23.099\n五二零以前可不可以送進來這個要看審議的程度的進度如果會後我可以跟你報告審議的狀況現在我沒有辦法跟你講任何的訊息因為我根本不曉得審議的進度是怎麼樣我想啊真的是今天很謝謝有這樣的機會那打詐防詐真的是全民客體雖然說全球都有這樣子的困擾跟趨勢而且更嚴重\n\n13:25.384 --> 13:30.772\n這個是不是要提出一些範例出來我們台灣0.9%的GDP被騙走了日本是0.3%新加坡更嚴重\n\n13:36.271 --> 13:36.992\n台灣是不是科技之島?\n\n13:56.152 --> 13:56.772\n我也同意\n\n14:25.392 --> 14:47.725\n對於打擊詐騙希望行政院可以更接地氣更有同理心同理心真的非常重要人民的心是肉做的院長的心也是肉做的我們都心心相連我們希望有同理心來解決接地氣解決這個問題\n\n14:48.886 --> 15:07.060\n主詐的責任真的不在民眾防詐不利真的不在於詐騙集團太強我們的政府我們的唐鳳部長是天才部長啊我們一定一起努力好不好不要只是呼籲民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信而是應該依據普遍的實際情況\n\n15:07.961 --> 15:08.021\n好,謝謝葛如鈞\n\n","segments":[{"start":18.769,"end":22.897,"text":"主席,有請行政院陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備選。"},{"start":30.54,"end":46.604,"text":"很高興一天可以跟您見面兩次。我也是。院長您之前在答詢其他委員的答覆的時候曾經表示過臺股上兩萬點非常值得高興。3月8日您的臉書也很科學地用數字表示從105年到現在臺灣股市的漲幅142%"},{"start":50.365,"end":55.687,"text":"代表臺灣的經濟穩健的發展我這邊有一個產業類別的營運現況想請教一下這個營運金額10年成長163%說實話真的是很高105年來臺股漲幅142%還要更高我們是不是可以給這樣的一個幸福企業給他喊一聲加油好不好"},{"start":72.795,"end":96.372,"text":"這是打詐的企業啦。我們應該要認真的把打詐的工作做好。但是在112年的時候呢,基本上呢,我們那一年主黨的這個詐騙的金額還有從這個詐騙集團取回來的這個錢大概有140幾億啦。謝謝,但是黑數很多都還沒算進去。媒體也報導將0.9%的GDP都賠在裡面了。"},{"start":100.015,"end":121.432,"text":"我相信整體來講我們大家都很遺憾這並不是什麼企業或產業的營運成果這是詐騙集團每一年造成人民血汗錢的損失也是詐騙集團的營收十年來從33.8億增加到88.8億如果以111年的百大企業營收排名來講居然可以排到台灣百大企業當中"},{"start":122.173,"end":150.625,"text":"我想請教一下就是院長臺灣的詐騙案件數,詐騙案件數逐年攀升從110年的2萬4千多件暴增到112年將近3萬8千件增幅高達54%您就任以來自許為溫暖內閣但民眾看到這件事真的是不會感到溫暖可能只會憤怒或傷心這些資料來自警政署還不包含沒有報案的數量"},{"start":151.585,"end":169.598,"text":"院長曾經表示打詐需要繼續加強但是已經有蠻多成果這是您所說的話但實際瀏覽行政院的網站羅列各種打詐數據打詐成效的部分還提到國際詐騙電話部分從112年的5080萬通下降到1503萬通其中886開頭的國際來話數量至最高112年的1600萬通持續下降到84萬通我們先不管886明明就是台灣的號碼"},{"start":180.206,"end":206.174,"text":"為什麼會變成國際來話我們先不管這些但是我們感覺到的是關槍冷冰冰的數字民眾打開手機依然收到一堆詐騙簡訊絲毫感受不到生活有任何的改變難道這就是溫暖內閣想傳遞的暖意嗎還是寒意我想對民眾來說每天接到詐騙集團的電話跟簡訊真的變成我們的新日常我想民富其實的溫暖內閣必須苦民所苦以民眾為出發點"},{"start":207.754,"end":213.249,"text":"我想真的是真心請教院長您認為詐騙受害者"},{"start":214.125,"end":214.485,"text":"為什麼會被騙"},{"start":238.803,"end":263.092,"text":"我想 院長第一我們真的是要有同理心警覺不夠可能人民辨別不出來這真的不是人民的問題同時詐騙集團的方案推陳出新我們的法律跟打仗的方法當然要比他更新我們來看一下既然您沒有辦法正確的理解民眾為什麼被騙我這裡有個案件想要請您實際確認一下"},{"start":264.551,"end":269.62,"text":"哪個是假的?何者為真?何者為假?哪個是假的?我們來看一下。聲音麻煩一下,謝謝。"},{"start":276.021,"end":277.182,"text":"我們重新看一次啦!哪個是假的?"},{"start":296.125,"end":315.382,"text":"現在這段影片是我親自錄製的,透過錄影來跟大家確認,每一段話都是我親自說的,絕對不是AI生成的詐騙影片。請教院長。我覺得右邊的好像比較像真的。好,謝謝喔。很抱歉,兩個都是假的,全部都是AI生成的喔。"},{"start":315.962,"end":342.677,"text":"院長我想民眾之所以會被詐騙,真正的原因,真正我是哪個是假的啊,我沒有說哪一個啊,我想要說的就是民眾真的很難分辨,院長真的是非常優秀的科學家,都要看得這麼仔細,都沒有辦法完全分辨,還要說民眾沒辦法分辨是民眾的問題,那民眾就都不要分辨好了啊。"},{"start":343.358,"end":348.01,"text":"你這是詐騙的問題啊!你就是詐騙啊!所以就是詐騙集團的問題跟民眾的問題?我們都沒有做錯事嗎?"},{"start":351.516,"end":374.399,"text":"我們認為民眾之所以被詐騙最重要的原因是真的沒有辦法分辨啦所以詐騙集團的這些案件暴風式的成長簡訊的網址我看到了我們可能連專家都沒有辦法分辨哪一個是詐騙網址啊所以我們真的很需要政府的幫忙所以呢事實上我們的政府是怎麼來幫忙的呢我們來看一下"},{"start":375.322,"end":377.603,"text":"我先簡單介紹一下為什麼人民感受很差好不好"},{"start":403.797,"end":411.214,"text":"我們看一下這兩種通訊服務根據調查我是真的想要來交流我相信唐鳳部長也很清楚"},{"start":411.943,"end":439.789,"text":"根據調查2021年iMessage在全球有13億活躍用戶每秒發送20萬條訊息並且在COVID-19大流行期間使用率增加了30%另外的RCS的服務根據統計2023年全球用戶突破10億而民眾關閉這兩種通訊服務不是在主詐而是在阻隔世界等同於讓台灣變成一座訊息孤島由此可見政府處理事情的邏輯"},{"start":440.689,"end":459.856,"text":"到底是不是都是這樣,發生食安問題就扯到國人愛吃辣,難以禁止辣椒粉進口,就把責任推到民眾身上,詐騙集團廣發簡訊,就是要求大家關閉iMessage、RCS,所謂的防詐誤步驟,要求民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信。"},{"start":461.63,"end":477.579,"text":"不好意思,這個民眾真的是很傷心、很難過、很寒冷。最好考慮是不是乾脆不要用手機。到時候又說我們民眾愛用手機、愛上網。所以我想真的是要接地氣、站在民眾的角度、設想。這個我們是不是能夠來加強。"},{"start":480.062,"end":507.424,"text":"報告委員基本上來講的話我們提醒民眾這邊也是提升他的防詐意識報告委員在整個我們科技的使用上的確也有數位落差的這個情況有一些我們就可以看得出來就是說如果不常用像MSG或RCS這種功能的我們會建議他把它關閉啦並不是說不要去用這個所謂的功能而是說盡量減少接觸不要減少被騙的機會好 謝謝不好意思打斷剛好我也是在教育文化委員會"},{"start":508.024,"end":536.742,"text":"希望未來還能跟您持續交流。我想接下來剛好唐鳳部長也在這裡了。我想資通要安心,資通安全也很重要。依據現行的資安法,公務機關或特定非公務機關發生資安事件的時候要進行通報。資安事件分成四級,最輕為第一級,最嚴重是第四級。想請教一下院長,去年一整年公務機關或特定非公務機關共發生了幾件,最嚴重的也就是第四級的資安事件。"},{"start":538.88,"end":539.805,"text":"應該沒有第4級的事件。"},{"start":540.742,"end":568.724,"text":"好很好目前先軍一法還好沒有零件但是呢雖然說光第三集的案件就有63件占總通報件數將近6%到第四集已經是動搖國本了幸好還沒有但是呢我們想要來看一下以近年來教育部發生火燒機房的事件為例該案被界定為三級資安事件距離動搖國本真的只有一步之遙"},{"start":569.545,"end":586.642,"text":"但是事情發生以後教育部卻連火災原因都沒有積極了解直到我的辦公室詢問了教育部才開始簽辦並且急忙在我執訊以後發文臺北市消防局確認火災原因我們今天已經3月19號了至今我們還沒有看到"},{"start":590.124,"end":612.94,"text":"實地考察火災現場起火點距離UPS不斷電系統非常接近一牆之隔全部都是電池在那個牆上如果再延燒下去很可能不只是火災甚至會引發爆炸連主機都可能會炸掉這個過去在2013年就有發生過類似的事情是7月發生這樣的事這一次真的是抱持僥倖心態態度鬆散"},{"start":614.941,"end":642.834,"text":"我們還看到很多的企業都還會被入侵公務機關還有這種火災的問題請教院長政府是不是有統計追蹤去年一年臺灣共發生多少件企業遭駭客入侵的資安事件這一個統計跟委員報告我們這個如果是以我們公部門的來計算的話以及TW3CC的來計算的話以我目前掌握應該是大概上千件左右"},{"start":643.715,"end":667.754,"text":"好 謝謝我想數位部的回答很好希望提供相關資料而且要跨部會的來分享我可以告訴院長我們詢問過警政署也過去我們也在這幾天發文詢問數位部答案都是沒有相關統計結果部長知道的可能比數位部還多事實上上櫃公司依據現行法規必要的時候是要發布重大訊息的所以顯然政府沒有掌握"},{"start":668.474,"end":693.453,"text":"對相關企業被害的狀況沒有掌握,如何進一步帶領企業來強化資安呢?分配資安預算的時候,大家都負責資安,人人都有份。發生企業被害,發生重大資安事件的時候,人人都踢皮球,人人都無關,都說不屬於我的權責範圍。所以事實上我們來看一下,這幾個四個單位的業務執掌,請院長告訴我們哪一個是行政院資安匯報的業務執掌項目?"},{"start":697.566,"end":726.351,"text":"這是不是比打詐的分辨還難分辨啊?沒錯,我相信真的很難因為看起來幾乎完全一樣但是我們有一堆的單位在做要解決治安問題真的不是靠成立一堆組織也要有健全的法規制度才能夠讓政府單位民間有規則可循數位部111年8月27號成立到現在已經超過了一年半但是翻開我們現在的知通安全管理法"},{"start":727.071,"end":743.429,"text":"不管機關還是寫著行政院數位部在治安管理上到底有沒有能力扮演角色我相信部長很有心我就替部長來請問院長資通安全管理法目前已經送到行政院院長是不是可以承諾"},{"start":744.15,"end":756.605,"text":"在520以前將這部法案送到立法院來審查我們相信你們是暖心內閣你們也不是看守內閣你們是看守人民的錢包看守人民的幸福感可不可以在520以前送進來"},{"start":757.762,"end":764.831,"text":"每分每秒都有駭客在入侵每分每秒都有像剛剛這樣分辨不清的影片每一秒有20萬則的iMessage"},{"start":775.905,"end":803.099,"text":"五二零以前可不可以送進來這個要看審議的程度的進度如果會後我可以跟你報告審議的狀況現在我沒有辦法跟你講任何的訊息因為我根本不曉得審議的進度是怎麼樣我想啊真的是今天很謝謝有這樣的機會那打詐防詐真的是全民客體雖然說全球都有這樣子的困擾跟趨勢而且更嚴重"},{"start":805.384,"end":810.772,"text":"這個是不是要提出一些範例出來我們台灣0.9%的GDP被騙走了日本是0.3%新加坡更嚴重"},{"start":816.271,"end":816.992,"text":"台灣是不是科技之島?"},{"start":836.152,"end":836.772,"text":"我也同意"},{"start":865.392,"end":887.725,"text":"對於打擊詐騙希望行政院可以更接地氣更有同理心同理心真的非常重要人民的心是肉做的院長的心也是肉做的我們都心心相連我們希望有同理心來解決接地氣解決這個問題"},{"start":888.886,"end":907.06,"text":"主詐的責任真的不在民眾防詐不利真的不在於詐騙集團太強我們的政府我們的唐鳳部長是天才部長啊我們一定一起努力好不好不要只是呼籲民眾不聽不接不點不傳不信而是應該依據普遍的實際情況"},{"start":907.961,"end":908.021,"text":"好,謝謝葛如鈞"}]}}}}