{"id":150074,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150074","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192db750bae1a8680f22577149e9af75248f8ba9b0039caa7a6933305da8cf473af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:24:52 - 09:34:54","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-4"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":602,"end_time":"2024-03-20T09:34:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T09:24:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":93,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時24分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請廖院長？"],["主席：請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：柯委員早。"],["柯委員志恩：院長好。中研院是全臺灣最高的學術單位，這個大家都無可否認，我們當然很希望能夠留下最好的人才，院長過去曾經分析我們很多地方的人才為什麼會斷層，大概就是就讀博士班的誘因偏低，還有高教科研的人才待遇偏低，以及退休所得偏低，就是這三低，沒有錯吧？"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["柯委員志恩：那我們就來看看博士班的誘因，院長，從你2016年上任到現在，中研院支薪的博士生是大幅下降，七年來少了113人，原因在哪裡？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這個原因主要可以說是少子化的過程；另外，很重要的一部分是國際競爭越來越強，我們一方面希望臺灣的學生留在臺灣念，一方面我們也希望臺灣多一點學生出國去念，兩相比較之下，難免會吸引一些臺灣很優秀的人才到國外去；除此之外，國外人才也會被我們的競爭……"],["柯委員志恩：好，我完全同意人才是應該互通的，可是中研院應該是比別人更能夠提出優渥的條件。院長，我存疑的是，你們在去年時曾經不約而同要提高博士生的獎勵，你在2016年上任已經看出這樣的趨勢，而你在國外這麼久的時間，為什麼到去年你們才提出對於博士生的獎勵？而且這個時間點不禁會讓我想到已經七年多你們都沒有這樣的舉動，為什麼在去年做？這是什麼樣的考量？應該不是因為選舉吧？"],["廖院長俊智：中研院不參與選舉，所以絕對不是因為選舉。"],["柯委員志恩：當然，但是這七年來你沒有這樣的作為，為什麼到去年才做這樣的事？"],["廖院長俊智：這件事情也是需要經過長時間的分析，因為在學界仍然有相當多的意見，認為博士生獎助金到底是否為提高就讀意願的唯一方式，這個在學界仍然有相當多不同意見；除此之外，我們也要看經費允不允許。"],["柯委員志恩：是，但還是一句話，經費有沒有允許，去年就告訴我們說你們是有辦法可以提升的，我只是質疑這七年來其實你們可以更早去做這樣的事情，而且您已經看出這樣的趨勢了，目前為止你們從3萬2,000元變成3萬8,000元，甚至在博三至博五可以提高。","我們來看國外的部分，我覺得看起來真的對於是否能夠留住臺灣的人才有非常大的存疑，你看德國，我們都是用獎助學金來做比較，我們先不要比德國；先看離我們最近的日本，再看看中研院，其實在一些研究機構中，我們臺灣是遠遠不如，這不是說人才互通，幾乎就是人才已經往國外去了，而且更不要說國外有更好的研究的team，team比所謂的經費還更重要。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，我們繼續看，你剛剛有提到……"],["廖院長俊智：那個……"],["柯委員志恩：對不起，我會讓院長有回應的機會。你看，你剛才也提到，業界的薪水高出中研院的研究人員非常多，不要看台積電200萬的年薪，其他的即使是封測廠，多少平均也有6萬1,000元，所以產業跟我們學術界在搶人，這也都是一個很大的趨勢。","接下來，你也提到，我們的隱形國力就是來自於我們的基礎人員、基礎研究，各位看一下，中研院從106年到113年，有關基礎研究費，這是院長你再三告訴我們應該要提升的，可是很顯然完全不動，就是六成，而且不是不動，百分之六十幾。然後你看，我覺得這是中研院應該要極力呼籲的，特別是你可以跟總統來做對話，你看到全國基礎研究經費比率成長非常緩慢，這對臺灣非常多基礎科學研究來說並不是一件好事，院長你同意吧？"],["廖院長俊智：非常同意。可不可以讓我幾分鐘，所有的問題一起……"],["柯委員志恩：1分鐘好不好？我們兩個在搶話。"],["廖院長俊智：好。第一個，為什麼去年才做加薪的問題，因為去年全世界掀起一個博士生加薪的風潮……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你們是跟著全世界的趨勢嗎？我們不能自己先做嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：因為需要考量全世界的壓力，這是第一個回應，當然我們也希望……"],["柯委員志恩：但你的壓力還是沒辦法減緩，因為他們的薪水比我們高……"],["廖院長俊智：是沒錯……"],["柯委員志恩：現在全世界的基礎研究費，你只贏過中國大陸，根本不要說其他，這對臺灣的科技人力、基礎科學研究是一個非常大的挑戰耶！"],["廖院長俊智：同意。另外，我們剛才講說中研院的研究經費有百分之六十幾在基礎研究費，事實上不是這樣的，幾乎是百分之九十幾都在基礎研究，其他沒有在百分之六十幾的部分是人事費、維運費，都包括在裡面，看起來只有百分之六十幾，但事實上中研院所有可以用來做研究的經費裡面有百分之九十幾以上都是做基礎研究。"],["柯委員志恩：好。目前我們很多基礎研究都來自政府部門或高教的部分，我們那時是希望企業界有辦法的話能夠來挹注，可是你看，我們很遺憾地看到企業界投入其實不到一成，這是我們臺灣的發展不管任何方式裡面最大的一個危機。"],["廖院長俊智：是，同意。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，我還是強調，中研院如果沒辦法帶頭在這個地方引領，讓全國認為這是一個非常重要的部分的話，其他部門，更不要說企業界是不會做這樣的事情，這會讓我們臺灣的人才，特別是基礎科學的人才都被國外所用，我同意人才是互通的，但是我們臺灣的人才在國外的高薪之下幾乎沒有任何的條件，更何況現在的退休制度又讓很多人才根本不願意留下來。院長，你知道你們中研院最能夠留下人才的是什麼因素嗎？是你們的幼稚園，很多人都認為這是他們留下來很重要的因素，我們怎麼可能到最後是變成這樣呢？這讓我也覺得非常驚訝。","最後，因為大家都非常關切，中研院是我認為最有辦法得到真話的地方，學術是一個真理，我們來看一下，院長，你曾經說2026年你個人認為要達到非核幾乎是不可能的事情，因為2050年淨零排碳，院長你曾經說過幾乎是做不到的，目前你還是這麼認為嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：非常困難，我們仍然要持續努力，困難，但是我們需要持續努力，確實假如用我們現有的技術是很難達到淨零碳排的目標，所以大家都要一起努力。"],["柯委員志恩：我們知道目前中研院在去碳燃氫的部分是主打的範圍。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["柯委員志恩：我講白話一點，因為這個名詞實在是太多人不知道，賴準總統說過過去有乾淨的煤，如果白話來講，中研院應該是乾淨的氣，但透過一些技術，你們會有很多的技術，但重點是要發展去碳燃氫，我們需要更多的天然氣，如果需要更多天然氣的話，院長，你覺得在電力的成本各方面會不會又因此提升？現在只有50%，如果要發展這樣的方式的話，你覺得占比是不是要更高？"],["廖院長俊智：我們假如需要把電弄乾淨，無可避免我們必須要多付成本，不管用什麼樣的技術，要把一個房間打掃乾淨就必須要花點錢，所以沒有辦法說不花錢就把電弄乾淨。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我覺得這個部分一定要誠實地告訴大家……"],["廖院長俊智：對，我非常同意。"],["柯委員志恩：我們如果要有乾淨的能源、我們如果要投入這樣的技術，基本上我們的電費趨勢一定是往上提升，所以這個成本也會因為要達到淨零排碳的目標，絕對會因此提升。","最後，我們希望能夠達到所謂的淨零，我們來看看目前全世界的趨勢，臺灣目前的減碳目標是24%，你覺得淨零的科技有沒有辦法幫臺灣提前達到減碳？我們跟其他國家比起來，人家都是四成以上，我們現在只有24%而已，且我剛剛說了，2030年減碳的目標比別人設得更低，我們需要天然氣的量又更大，電會需要更多，未來漲電費會是一個趨勢，說了這麼多，就中研院現在強打的政策來說，有沒有辦法幫忙提前達到這個目標？"],["廖院長俊智：我們要更加努力。"],["柯委員志恩：更加努力是一個精神名詞喊話，我要確切地確定目標有沒有辦法達到？操作型定義。"],["廖院長俊智：沒有辦法，我們可能沒有辦法在現有的資源下達到，因為各國投入了很多、很多的資源在做這方面，都要全民一起來朝這方向在努力；臺灣有比較特殊的狀況，我們的製造業相對比其他國家多，我們的土地比其他國家少，所以這方面我們面對的挑戰跟其他國家就會很不一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，我們全民很難在這方面努力，我們希望政府能夠努力，而你們中研院一言九鼎，你們如果告訴我們在技術上你們有辦法達到，就請你利用任何的機會告訴未來的總統，經費多花一點，然後告訴我們這個部分，誠實面對大家，我們現在的確沒有辦法達到他們所設定的目標，除非你給我們更多的經費、更多的資源，也要讓全民瞭解未來如果要達到這個部分，電費漲價勢必是一個趨勢，謝謝院長。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯委員，院長請回座。","接下來請羅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","萬美玲","張雅琳","吳春城","陳培瑜","謝衣鳯","范雲","吳思瑤","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"150074","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150074","tool":"pyannote","id":"150074-pyannote"},"job_id":"Kfcv7780H29yKJzD","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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00:01:16,849\n我想這個原因應該是主要可以說是少子化的一個過程另外很重要的一部分就是國際競爭越來越強是那我們一方面希望說臺灣的學生留在臺灣念一方面我們也希望說臺灣多點學生出國去念這兩相比較之下我們難免會吸引一些這個臺灣很優秀人才到國外去除此之外那國外人才也會被其他的\n\n4\n00:01:17,789 --> 00:01:30,632\n我完全同意人才是應該互通的可是中研院應該是比別人更能夠提出優渥的一個條件可是院長我要存疑的就是為什麼你們在去年的時候曾經提說要來部約兒童要提高博士生的獎勵為什麼你上任2016年你已經看出這樣一個趨勢你在國外這麼久的時間為什麼到去年的時候你們才提出對於博士生的獎勵\n\n5\n00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:49,462\n時間點讓我不禁會想到說已經7年多你們沒有做這樣的舉動為什麼在去年做這是什麼樣的一個考量應該不是選舉吧\n\n6\n00:01:52,415 --> 00:01:53,376\n在學界仍然是有相當多不同意見除此之外呢\n\n7\n00:02:20,492 --> 00:02:47,950\n我們也要看說我們的經費允不允許是但是還是一句話嘛經費有沒有允許去年時候就已經告訴我們你們是可以有辦法去提升的我只是質疑這個7年來說其實可以更早來去做這樣的事情而且你看出這樣的一個趨勢就是你們目前為止從3萬2變成3萬8甚至在博3博5的時候可以提高我們來看看其他國外我就看起來我真的覺得對我們台灣的人才能夠留住他們我真的畫上一個非常大的一個唇印你看德國\n\n8\n00:02:49,471 --> 00:03:10,225\n我們就是用獎助學金來做這樣的一個比較你看德國我們先不要比德國即使我們最近的一個日本然後再看看我們中研院其實在一些國有這些研究機構當中我們台灣是遠遠的不如這不是說可以人才互通這幾乎就是人才已經往國外過去了而且更不要說國外有更好的一個研究的team\n\n9\n00:03:11,065 --> 00:03:11,185\n主席\n\n10\n00:03:41,165 --> 00:04:02,947\n對我個人來說這個我們往下跳,對我個人來說就是你也提到說如果我們一個隱形的國立就是來自於我們基礎人員的對不對基礎研究各位看一下中研院你看從113年到從10到10113幾乎你的基礎研究這是院長你在三不斷告訴我們應該要提升的可是很顯然完全不動就是六成\n\n11\n00:04:03,487 --> 00:04:03,667\n一分鐘好不好,我們兩個再搶話\n\n12\n00:04:30,442 --> 00:04:43,077\n為什麼去年才做這個加薪的問題因為在政治去年全世界先起一個博士生加薪的風潮所以你是跟著全世界趨勢嗎我們不能自己先做嗎\n\n13\n00:04:44,258 --> 00:04:44,418\n同意同意\n\n14\n00:05:02,964 --> 00:05:22,609\n另外我們剛才講說這個中央研究院的研究經費60幾%在基礎研究事實上不是這樣子幾乎是百分之九十幾的基礎研究其他沒有在60幾%那部分是人事費是維運費是包握在裡面所以我們看起來就60幾%但事實上中央研究院的所有的可以用來做研究經費裡面百分之九十幾以上都是做基礎研究\n\n15\n00:05:23,509 --> 00:05:23,909\n中央研究院院長\n\n16\n00:05:48,177 --> 00:05:48,878\n臺灣人才都被國外所用﹚\n\n17\n00:06:10,538 --> 00:06:29,874\n院長你知道嗎?你們中研院最能夠留下來是什麼因素嗎?你們的幼稚園,好不好?很多人都認為這是他們留下來很重要的因素,我們怎麼可能到最後變成是這樣子呢?這讓我也覺得非常的驚訝。然後我們再來看一下,最後我們來看一下,因為大家都非常關切,中研院是我認為最有辦法得到真話的地方,學術是一個真理,我們就來看一下。\n\n18\n00:06:30,655 --> 00:06:34,340\n院長你曾經說2026這個部分裏面你個人認為要達到一個非核幾乎是不可能的事情來我們往下看因為這個部分裏面來說2050年近鄰排汰院長你曾經說過幾乎做不到的目前你還是這麼認為嗎\n\n19\n00:06:46,778 --> 00:06:48,359\n我們目前來說知道我們中央研究院的去碳燃氫的這個部分是你們主打的一個範圍\n\n20\n00:07:05,974 --> 00:07:33,953\n我講白話一點因為這個名詞實在是太多人不知道賴準總統說過故居有乾淨的煤如果照你白話來講今天終於應該是乾淨的氣但是呢透過一些的技術你們會有很多的技術但是重點是我們要發展你剛剛的去碳燃氣我們需要更多的天然氣那如果需要更多的天然氣的話院長你覺得這樣我們的電力的成本各方面會不會又因此提升我們現在是要50%如果你要發展這樣的方式的話你會你覺得\n\n21\n00:07:35,174 --> 00:07:35,354\n李卓人議員\n\n22\n00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:13,369\n這部分一定要誠實的告訴大家我們如果要有乾淨的能源的話我們如果要投入這樣的一個技術的話基本上我們的電費我們的這個趨勢一定是會往上來提升嘛所以說這個成本裡面也同步會因為這樣子的關係我要達到我們淨零排碳的這個目標我們去做到這個部分是\n\n23\n00:08:17,731 --> 00:08:23,596\n臺灣目前只有24%你覺得淨零的科技有沒有辦法幫臺灣提前達到減碳我們跟其他國家比起來人家都是四成以上我們現在幾乎只有24而已而且我剛剛說的2030減碳的目標比別人設的還要更低我們需要天然氣的這樣的量又更大我們的電費需要更多我們未來的漲電會是一個趨勢\n\n24\n00:08:46,514 --> 00:09:08,692\n說了這麼多有沒有辦法就中議院向目前強打的這個政策來說有辦法幫我們提前達到這個目標嗎我們要更加努力更加努力是一個精神名詞喊話我要確切的目標有沒有辦法達到操作型定義我們可能沒有辦法這個在現有的資源下達到因為各國\n\n25\n00:09:09,693 --> 00:09:09,733\n主席\n\n26\n00:09:29,889 --> 00:09:29,909\n謝謝院長﹖謝謝\n\n27\n00:10:00,064 --> 00:10:00,267\n謝謝柯委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6531\t34160\t謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的院長,廖院長請院長各位院長是,院長好,我想中研院是我們全臺灣大家都無可否認就是一個最高的學術的單位我們當然很希望能夠留下最好的一個人才那院長過去曾經分析我們很多地方的人才為什麼會斷層,大概就是就讀博士班的誘因偏低還有我們高教科研的人才待遇偏低退休所的偏低這是3D,沒有錯吧\n35502\t35983\t7年來少了113人,原因在哪裡?\n48151\t76849\t我想這個原因應該是主要可以說是少子化的一個過程另外很重要的一部分就是國際競爭越來越強是那我們一方面希望說臺灣的學生留在臺灣念一方面我們也希望說臺灣多點學生出國去念這兩相比較之下我們難免會吸引一些這個臺灣很優秀人才到國外去除此之外那國外人才也會被其他的\n77789\t90632\t我完全同意人才是應該互通的可是中研院應該是比別人更能夠提出優渥的一個條件可是院長我要存疑的就是為什麼你們在去年的時候曾經提說要來部約兒童要提高博士生的獎勵為什麼你上任2016年你已經看出這樣一個趨勢你在國外這麼久的時間為什麼到去年的時候你們才提出對於博士生的獎勵\n103236\t109462\t時間點讓我不禁會想到說已經7年多你們沒有做這樣的舉動為什麼在去年做這是什麼樣的一個考量應該不是選舉吧\n112415\t113376\t在學界仍然是有相當多不同意見除此之外呢\n140492\t167950\t我們也要看說我們的經費允不允許是但是還是一句話嘛經費有沒有允許去年時候就已經告訴我們你們是可以有辦法去提升的我只是質疑這個7年來說其實可以更早來去做這樣的事情而且你看出這樣的一個趨勢就是你們目前為止從3萬2變成3萬8甚至在博3博5的時候可以提高我們來看看其他國外我就看起來我真的覺得對我們台灣的人才能夠留住他們我真的畫上一個非常大的一個唇印你看德國\n169471\t190225\t我們就是用獎助學金來做這樣的一個比較你看德國我們先不要比德國即使我們最近的一個日本然後再看看我們中研院其實在一些國有這些研究機構當中我們台灣是遠遠的不如這不是說可以人才互通這幾乎就是人才已經往國外過去了而且更不要說國外有更好的一個研究的team\n191065\t191185\t主席\n221165\t242947\t對我個人來說這個我們往下跳,對我個人來說就是你也提到說如果我們一個隱形的國立就是來自於我們基礎人員的對不對基礎研究各位看一下中研院你看從113年到從10到10113幾乎你的基礎研究這是院長你在三不斷告訴我們應該要提升的可是很顯然完全不動就是六成\n243487\t243667\t一分鐘好不好,我們兩個再搶話\n270442\t283077\t為什麼去年才做這個加薪的問題因為在政治去年全世界先起一個博士生加薪的風潮所以你是跟著全世界趨勢嗎我們不能自己先做嗎\n284258\t284418\t同意 同意\n302964\t322609\t另外我們剛才講說這個中央研究院的研究經費60幾%在基礎研究事實上不是這樣子幾乎是百分之九十幾的基礎研究其他沒有在60幾%那部分是人事費是維運費是包握在裡面所以我們看起來就60幾%但事實上中央研究院的所有的可以用來做研究經費裡面百分之九十幾以上都是做基礎研究\n323509\t323909\t中央研究院院長\n348177\t348878\t臺灣人才都被國外所用﹚\n370538\t389874\t院長你知道嗎?你們中研院最能夠留下來是什麼因素嗎?你們的幼稚園,好不好?很多人都認為這是他們留下來很重要的因素,我們怎麼可能到最後變成是這樣子呢?這讓我也覺得非常的驚訝。然後我們再來看一下,最後我們來看一下,因為大家都非常關切,中研院是我認為最有辦法得到真話的地方,學術是一個真理,我們就來看一下。\n390655\t394340\t院長你曾經說2026這個部分裏面你個人認為要達到一個非核幾乎是不可能的事情來我們往下看因為這個部分裏面來說2050年近鄰排汰院長你曾經說過幾乎做不到的目前你還是這麼認為嗎\n406778\t408359\t我們目前來說知道我們中央研究院的去碳燃氫的這個部分是你們主打的一個範圍\n425974\t453953\t我講白話一點因為這個名詞實在是太多人不知道賴準總統說過故居有乾淨的煤如果照你白話來講今天終於應該是乾淨的氣但是呢透過一些的技術你們會有很多的技術但是重點是我們要發展你剛剛的去碳燃氣我們需要更多的天然氣那如果需要更多的天然氣的話院長你覺得這樣我們的電力的成本各方面會不會又因此提升我們現在是要50%如果你要發展這樣的方式的話你會你覺得\n455174\t455354\t李卓人議員\n476280\t493369\t這部分一定要誠實的告訴大家我們如果要有乾淨的能源的話我們如果要投入這樣的一個技術的話基本上我們的電費我們的這個趨勢一定是會往上來提升嘛所以說這個成本裡面也同步會因為這樣子的關係我要達到我們淨零排碳的這個目標我們去做到這個部分是\n497731\t503596\t臺灣目前只有24%你覺得淨零的科技有沒有辦法幫臺灣提前達到減碳我們跟其他國家比起來人家都是四成以上我們現在幾乎只有24而已而且我剛剛說的2030減碳的目標比別人設的還要更低我們需要天然氣的這樣的量又更大我們的電費需要更多我們未來的漲電會是一個趨勢\n526514\t548692\t說了這麼多有沒有辦法就中議院向目前強打的這個政策來說有辦法幫我們提前達到這個目標嗎我們要更加努力更加努力是一個精神名詞喊話我要確切的目標有沒有辦法達到操作型定義我們可能沒有辦法這個在現有的資源下達到因為各國\n549693\t549733\t主席\n569889\t569909\t謝謝院長﹖謝謝\n600064\t600267\t謝謝柯委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的院長,廖院長請院長各位院長是,院長好,我想中研院是我們全臺灣大家都無可否認就是一個最高的學術的單位我們當然很希望能夠留下最好的一個人才那院長過去曾經分析我們很多地方的人才為什麼會斷層,大概就是就讀博士班的誘因偏低還有我們高教科研的人才待遇偏低退休所的偏低這是3D,沒有錯吧\n7年來少了113人,原因在哪裡?\n我想這個原因應該是主要可以說是少子化的一個過程另外很重要的一部分就是國際競爭越來越強是那我們一方面希望說臺灣的學生留在臺灣念一方面我們也希望說臺灣多點學生出國去念這兩相比較之下我們難免會吸引一些這個臺灣很優秀人才到國外去除此之外那國外人才也會被其他的\n我完全同意人才是應該互通的可是中研院應該是比別人更能夠提出優渥的一個條件可是院長我要存疑的就是為什麼你們在去年的時候曾經提說要來部約兒童要提高博士生的獎勵為什麼你上任2016年你已經看出這樣一個趨勢你在國外這麼久的時間為什麼到去年的時候你們才提出對於博士生的獎勵\n時間點讓我不禁會想到說已經7年多你們沒有做這樣的舉動為什麼在去年做這是什麼樣的一個考量應該不是選舉吧\n在學界仍然是有相當多不同意見除此之外呢\n我們也要看說我們的經費允不允許是但是還是一句話嘛經費有沒有允許去年時候就已經告訴我們你們是可以有辦法去提升的我只是質疑這個7年來說其實可以更早來去做這樣的事情而且你看出這樣的一個趨勢就是你們目前為止從3萬2變成3萬8甚至在博3博5的時候可以提高我們來看看其他國外我就看起來我真的覺得對我們台灣的人才能夠留住他們我真的畫上一個非常大的一個唇印你看德國\n我們就是用獎助學金來做這樣的一個比較你看德國我們先不要比德國即使我們最近的一個日本然後再看看我們中研院其實在一些國有這些研究機構當中我們台灣是遠遠的不如這不是說可以人才互通這幾乎就是人才已經往國外過去了而且更不要說國外有更好的一個研究的team\n主席\n對我個人來說這個我們往下跳,對我個人來說就是你也提到說如果我們一個隱形的國立就是來自於我們基礎人員的對不對基礎研究各位看一下中研院你看從113年到從10到10113幾乎你的基礎研究這是院長你在三不斷告訴我們應該要提升的可是很顯然完全不動就是六成\n一分鐘好不好,我們兩個再搶話\n為什麼去年才做這個加薪的問題因為在政治去年全世界先起一個博士生加薪的風潮所以你是跟著全世界趨勢嗎我們不能自己先做嗎\n同意 同意\n另外我們剛才講說這個中央研究院的研究經費60幾%在基礎研究事實上不是這樣子幾乎是百分之九十幾的基礎研究其他沒有在60幾%那部分是人事費是維運費是包握在裡面所以我們看起來就60幾%但事實上中央研究院的所有的可以用來做研究經費裡面百分之九十幾以上都是做基礎研究\n中央研究院院長\n臺灣人才都被國外所用﹚\n院長你知道嗎?你們中研院最能夠留下來是什麼因素嗎?你們的幼稚園,好不好?很多人都認為這是他們留下來很重要的因素,我們怎麼可能到最後變成是這樣子呢?這讓我也覺得非常的驚訝。然後我們再來看一下,最後我們來看一下,因為大家都非常關切,中研院是我認為最有辦法得到真話的地方,學術是一個真理,我們就來看一下。\n院長你曾經說2026這個部分裏面你個人認為要達到一個非核幾乎是不可能的事情來我們往下看因為這個部分裏面來說2050年近鄰排汰院長你曾經說過幾乎做不到的目前你還是這麼認為嗎\n我們目前來說知道我們中央研究院的去碳燃氫的這個部分是你們主打的一個範圍\n我講白話一點因為這個名詞實在是太多人不知道賴準總統說過故居有乾淨的煤如果照你白話來講今天終於應該是乾淨的氣但是呢透過一些的技術你們會有很多的技術但是重點是我們要發展你剛剛的去碳燃氣我們需要更多的天然氣那如果需要更多的天然氣的話院長你覺得這樣我們的電力的成本各方面會不會又因此提升我們現在是要50%如果你要發展這樣的方式的話你會你覺得\n李卓人議員\n這部分一定要誠實的告訴大家我們如果要有乾淨的能源的話我們如果要投入這樣的一個技術的話基本上我們的電費我們的這個趨勢一定是會往上來提升嘛所以說這個成本裡面也同步會因為這樣子的關係我要達到我們淨零排碳的這個目標我們去做到這個部分是\n臺灣目前只有24%你覺得淨零的科技有沒有辦法幫臺灣提前達到減碳我們跟其他國家比起來人家都是四成以上我們現在幾乎只有24而已而且我剛剛說的2030減碳的目標比別人設的還要更低我們需要天然氣的這樣的量又更大我們的電費需要更多我們未來的漲電會是一個趨勢\n說了這麼多有沒有辦法就中議院向目前強打的這個政策來說有辦法幫我們提前達到這個目標嗎我們要更加努力更加努力是一個精神名詞喊話我要確切的目標有沒有辦法達到操作型定義我們可能沒有辦法這個在現有的資源下達到因為各國\n主席\n謝謝院長﹖謝謝\n謝謝柯委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.531 --> 00:34.160\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的院長,廖院長請院長各位院長是,院長好,我想中研院是我們全臺灣大家都無可否認就是一個最高的學術的單位我們當然很希望能夠留下最好的一個人才那院長過去曾經分析我們很多地方的人才為什麼會斷層,大概就是就讀博士班的誘因偏低還有我們高教科研的人才待遇偏低退休所的偏低這是3D,沒有錯吧\n\n00:35.502 --> 00:35.983\n7年來少了113人,原因在哪裡?\n\n00:48.151 --> 01:16.849\n我想這個原因應該是主要可以說是少子化的一個過程另外很重要的一部分就是國際競爭越來越強是那我們一方面希望說臺灣的學生留在臺灣念一方面我們也希望說臺灣多點學生出國去念這兩相比較之下我們難免會吸引一些這個臺灣很優秀人才到國外去除此之外那國外人才也會被其他的\n\n01:17.789 --> 01:30.632\n我完全同意人才是應該互通的可是中研院應該是比別人更能夠提出優渥的一個條件可是院長我要存疑的就是為什麼你們在去年的時候曾經提說要來部約兒童要提高博士生的獎勵為什麼你上任2016年你已經看出這樣一個趨勢你在國外這麼久的時間為什麼到去年的時候你們才提出對於博士生的獎勵\n\n01:43.236 --> 01:49.462\n時間點讓我不禁會想到說已經7年多你們沒有做這樣的舉動為什麼在去年做這是什麼樣的一個考量應該不是選舉吧\n\n01:52.415 --> 01:53.376\n在學界仍然是有相當多不同意見除此之外呢\n\n02:20.492 --> 02:47.950\n我們也要看說我們的經費允不允許是但是還是一句話嘛經費有沒有允許去年時候就已經告訴我們你們是可以有辦法去提升的我只是質疑這個7年來說其實可以更早來去做這樣的事情而且你看出這樣的一個趨勢就是你們目前為止從3萬2變成3萬8甚至在博3博5的時候可以提高我們來看看其他國外我就看起來我真的覺得對我們台灣的人才能夠留住他們我真的畫上一個非常大的一個唇印你看德國\n\n02:49.471 --> 03:10.225\n我們就是用獎助學金來做這樣的一個比較你看德國我們先不要比德國即使我們最近的一個日本然後再看看我們中研院其實在一些國有這些研究機構當中我們台灣是遠遠的不如這不是說可以人才互通這幾乎就是人才已經往國外過去了而且更不要說國外有更好的一個研究的team\n\n03:11.065 --> 03:11.185\n主席\n\n03:41.165 --> 04:02.947\n對我個人來說這個我們往下跳,對我個人來說就是你也提到說如果我們一個隱形的國立就是來自於我們基礎人員的對不對基礎研究各位看一下中研院你看從113年到從10到10113幾乎你的基礎研究這是院長你在三不斷告訴我們應該要提升的可是很顯然完全不動就是六成\n\n04:03.487 --> 04:03.667\n一分鐘好不好,我們兩個再搶話\n\n04:30.442 --> 04:43.077\n為什麼去年才做這個加薪的問題因為在政治去年全世界先起一個博士生加薪的風潮所以你是跟著全世界趨勢嗎我們不能自己先做嗎\n\n04:44.258 --> 04:44.418\n同意同意\n\n05:02.964 --> 05:22.609\n另外我們剛才講說這個中央研究院的研究經費60幾%在基礎研究事實上不是這樣子幾乎是百分之九十幾的基礎研究其他沒有在60幾%那部分是人事費是維運費是包握在裡面所以我們看起來就60幾%但事實上中央研究院的所有的可以用來做研究經費裡面百分之九十幾以上都是做基礎研究\n\n05:23.509 --> 05:23.909\n中央研究院院長\n\n05:48.177 --> 05:48.878\n臺灣人才都被國外所用﹚\n\n06:10.538 --> 06:29.874\n院長你知道嗎?你們中研院最能夠留下來是什麼因素嗎?你們的幼稚園,好不好?很多人都認為這是他們留下來很重要的因素,我們怎麼可能到最後變成是這樣子呢?這讓我也覺得非常的驚訝。然後我們再來看一下,最後我們來看一下,因為大家都非常關切,中研院是我認為最有辦法得到真話的地方,學術是一個真理,我們就來看一下。\n\n06:30.655 --> 06:34.340\n院長你曾經說2026這個部分裏面你個人認為要達到一個非核幾乎是不可能的事情來我們往下看因為這個部分裏面來說2050年近鄰排汰院長你曾經說過幾乎做不到的目前你還是這麼認為嗎\n\n06:46.778 --> 06:48.359\n我們目前來說知道我們中央研究院的去碳燃氫的這個部分是你們主打的一個範圍\n\n07:05.974 --> 07:33.953\n我講白話一點因為這個名詞實在是太多人不知道賴準總統說過故居有乾淨的煤如果照你白話來講今天終於應該是乾淨的氣但是呢透過一些的技術你們會有很多的技術但是重點是我們要發展你剛剛的去碳燃氣我們需要更多的天然氣那如果需要更多的天然氣的話院長你覺得這樣我們的電力的成本各方面會不會又因此提升我們現在是要50%如果你要發展這樣的方式的話你會你覺得\n\n07:35.174 --> 07:35.354\n李卓人議員\n\n07:56.280 --> 08:13.369\n這部分一定要誠實的告訴大家我們如果要有乾淨的能源的話我們如果要投入這樣的一個技術的話基本上我們的電費我們的這個趨勢一定是會往上來提升嘛所以說這個成本裡面也同步會因為這樣子的關係我要達到我們淨零排碳的這個目標我們去做到這個部分是\n\n08:17.731 --> 08:23.596\n臺灣目前只有24%你覺得淨零的科技有沒有辦法幫臺灣提前達到減碳我們跟其他國家比起來人家都是四成以上我們現在幾乎只有24而已而且我剛剛說的2030減碳的目標比別人設的還要更低我們需要天然氣的這樣的量又更大我們的電費需要更多我們未來的漲電會是一個趨勢\n\n08:46.514 --> 09:08.692\n說了這麼多有沒有辦法就中議院向目前強打的這個政策來說有辦法幫我們提前達到這個目標嗎我們要更加努力更加努力是一個精神名詞喊話我要確切的目標有沒有辦法達到操作型定義我們可能沒有辦法這個在現有的資源下達到因為各國\n\n09:09.693 --> 09:09.733\n主席\n\n09:29.889 --> 09:29.909\n謝謝院長﹖謝謝\n\n10:00.064 --> 10:00.267\n謝謝柯委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.531,"end":34.16,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的院長,廖院長請院長各位院長是,院長好,我想中研院是我們全臺灣大家都無可否認就是一個最高的學術的單位我們當然很希望能夠留下最好的一個人才那院長過去曾經分析我們很多地方的人才為什麼會斷層,大概就是就讀博士班的誘因偏低還有我們高教科研的人才待遇偏低退休所的偏低這是3D,沒有錯吧"},{"start":35.502,"end":35.983,"text":"7年來少了113人,原因在哪裡?"},{"start":48.151,"end":76.849,"text":"我想這個原因應該是主要可以說是少子化的一個過程另外很重要的一部分就是國際競爭越來越強是那我們一方面希望說臺灣的學生留在臺灣念一方面我們也希望說臺灣多點學生出國去念這兩相比較之下我們難免會吸引一些這個臺灣很優秀人才到國外去除此之外那國外人才也會被其他的"},{"start":77.789,"end":90.632,"text":"我完全同意人才是應該互通的可是中研院應該是比別人更能夠提出優渥的一個條件可是院長我要存疑的就是為什麼你們在去年的時候曾經提說要來部約兒童要提高博士生的獎勵為什麼你上任2016年你已經看出這樣一個趨勢你在國外這麼久的時間為什麼到去年的時候你們才提出對於博士生的獎勵"},{"start":103.236,"end":109.462,"text":"時間點讓我不禁會想到說已經7年多你們沒有做這樣的舉動為什麼在去年做這是什麼樣的一個考量應該不是選舉吧"},{"start":112.415,"end":113.376,"text":"在學界仍然是有相當多不同意見除此之外呢"},{"start":140.492,"end":167.95,"text":"我們也要看說我們的經費允不允許是但是還是一句話嘛經費有沒有允許去年時候就已經告訴我們你們是可以有辦法去提升的我只是質疑這個7年來說其實可以更早來去做這樣的事情而且你看出這樣的一個趨勢就是你們目前為止從3萬2變成3萬8甚至在博3博5的時候可以提高我們來看看其他國外我就看起來我真的覺得對我們台灣的人才能夠留住他們我真的畫上一個非常大的一個唇印你看德國"},{"start":169.471,"end":190.225,"text":"我們就是用獎助學金來做這樣的一個比較你看德國我們先不要比德國即使我們最近的一個日本然後再看看我們中研院其實在一些國有這些研究機構當中我們台灣是遠遠的不如這不是說可以人才互通這幾乎就是人才已經往國外過去了而且更不要說國外有更好的一個研究的team"},{"start":191.065,"end":191.185,"text":"主席"},{"start":221.165,"end":242.947,"text":"對我個人來說這個我們往下跳,對我個人來說就是你也提到說如果我們一個隱形的國立就是來自於我們基礎人員的對不對基礎研究各位看一下中研院你看從113年到從10到10113幾乎你的基礎研究這是院長你在三不斷告訴我們應該要提升的可是很顯然完全不動就是六成"},{"start":243.487,"end":243.667,"text":"一分鐘好不好,我們兩個再搶話"},{"start":270.442,"end":283.077,"text":"為什麼去年才做這個加薪的問題因為在政治去年全世界先起一個博士生加薪的風潮所以你是跟著全世界趨勢嗎我們不能自己先做嗎"},{"start":284.258,"end":284.418,"text":"同意 同意"},{"start":302.964,"end":322.609,"text":"另外我們剛才講說這個中央研究院的研究經費60幾%在基礎研究事實上不是這樣子幾乎是百分之九十幾的基礎研究其他沒有在60幾%那部分是人事費是維運費是包握在裡面所以我們看起來就60幾%但事實上中央研究院的所有的可以用來做研究經費裡面百分之九十幾以上都是做基礎研究"},{"start":323.509,"end":323.909,"text":"中央研究院院長"},{"start":348.177,"end":348.878,"text":"臺灣人才都被國外所用﹚"},{"start":370.538,"end":389.874,"text":"院長你知道嗎?你們中研院最能夠留下來是什麼因素嗎?你們的幼稚園,好不好?很多人都認為這是他們留下來很重要的因素,我們怎麼可能到最後變成是這樣子呢?這讓我也覺得非常的驚訝。然後我們再來看一下,最後我們來看一下,因為大家都非常關切,中研院是我認為最有辦法得到真話的地方,學術是一個真理,我們就來看一下。"},{"start":390.655,"end":394.34,"text":"院長你曾經說2026這個部分裏面你個人認為要達到一個非核幾乎是不可能的事情來我們往下看因為這個部分裏面來說2050年近鄰排汰院長你曾經說過幾乎做不到的目前你還是這麼認為嗎"},{"start":406.778,"end":408.359,"text":"我們目前來說知道我們中央研究院的去碳燃氫的這個部分是你們主打的一個範圍"},{"start":425.974,"end":453.953,"text":"我講白話一點因為這個名詞實在是太多人不知道賴準總統說過故居有乾淨的煤如果照你白話來講今天終於應該是乾淨的氣但是呢透過一些的技術你們會有很多的技術但是重點是我們要發展你剛剛的去碳燃氣我們需要更多的天然氣那如果需要更多的天然氣的話院長你覺得這樣我們的電力的成本各方面會不會又因此提升我們現在是要50%如果你要發展這樣的方式的話你會你覺得"},{"start":455.174,"end":455.354,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":476.28,"end":493.369,"text":"這部分一定要誠實的告訴大家我們如果要有乾淨的能源的話我們如果要投入這樣的一個技術的話基本上我們的電費我們的這個趨勢一定是會往上來提升嘛所以說這個成本裡面也同步會因為這樣子的關係我要達到我們淨零排碳的這個目標我們去做到這個部分是"},{"start":497.731,"end":503.596,"text":"臺灣目前只有24%你覺得淨零的科技有沒有辦法幫臺灣提前達到減碳我們跟其他國家比起來人家都是四成以上我們現在幾乎只有24而已而且我剛剛說的2030減碳的目標比別人設的還要更低我們需要天然氣的這樣的量又更大我們的電費需要更多我們未來的漲電會是一個趨勢"},{"start":526.514,"end":548.692,"text":"說了這麼多有沒有辦法就中議院向目前強打的這個政策來說有辦法幫我們提前達到這個目標嗎我們要更加努力更加努力是一個精神名詞喊話我要確切的目標有沒有辦法達到操作型定義我們可能沒有辦法這個在現有的資源下達到因為各國"},{"start":549.693,"end":549.733,"text":"主席"},{"start":569.889,"end":569.909,"text":"謝謝院長﹖謝謝"},{"start":600.064,"end":600.267,"text":"謝謝柯委員"}]}}}}